Hello there. For this guide I'm going to assume that the player reading this already understands the basics of the game and how Pantheon's moves work. I will also assume that the player is level 30 with a full rune page. It is my suggestion to not play Pantheon without a full rune page and all of the masteries available. I haven't seen a champion that is as dependent on runes/masteries as Pantheon is. With that said, let's get started!
Play Style
When I play Pantheon I like to play him with a few things in mind: he has a very strong early game, his ult is a strong gank/anti-gank move, and he can beat most ranged dps in 1v1 scenario. I never use his E as it is weaker than auto attacks, I only use it while exhausted or rooted or if I can hit multiple champions at once.
His early game is very very strong, the combination of Q, W and his passive allow him to dominate most lanes. This requires a lot of mana regen at level 1, high mobility (this allows you to trade a Q for less auto attacks from an enemy ranged champ), and high starting damage and armor penetration. Also, whenever my lane becomes pushed I look for possible gank opportunities in other lanes because Pantheon ganks well.
Once I hit 6 I immediately look for possible ults. His ult allows your team to roam the enemy jungle (for the most part) and do dragon if they have team members that are out of position (mainly this just means if someone on the enemy team is in top lane). If a team member gets ganked (or ganks for that matter) I try to ult and help them out. Usually people don't account for the possible Pantheon ult. I also use Pantheon's ult mainly for positioning. Trying to actually hit people with his ult is very very hard and it shows them that I'm entering the fight. I prefer to ult out of sight of the enemy so they aren't prepared for a wild Pantheon to appear. Ulting in this way can cause people to over-extend because they don't know I'm coming.
Late game is tricky with Pantheon. I tend to build him with high dps and relatively low survivability, so I try to play him as somewhat of an assassin. I like to use my ult to enter teamfights out of sight of the enemy tanks and jump on their dps. This requires good vision of the teamfight area, so try to get your team to help you ward important objectives such as baron or dragon.
Skill Order
R > Q > W > E
The only exception is at lvl 4 in which I would recommend getting 1 level in E for the crit chance passive.
Build
--boots + pots --2-3 doran blades --brutalizer --ghostblade --merc treads --last whisper or blood thirster depending on how much armor the other team has (lower armor go for the bloodthirster, higher armor get last whisper) --Banshee's/Randuin's/Guardian Angel, this mainly depends on the enemy team comp, if they're cc heavy I go banshee's, if not go Randuin's or GA --After this I take last whisper or blood thirster depending on which item you bought earlier --At this point I have one more slot, and it would best be spent getting something that either makes you tanky or deals with CC well (QSS/Banshee's/Randuin 's depending on what I bought earlier)
Summoner Spells
Ghost and Flash
These summoner spells allow Pantheon to stick on the ranged carry he's chasing after and to avoid ganks while harassing heavily during the laning phase.
Revive is also viable option however I'm terrible at using revive (I forget I have it) so I decided to use flash xD.
Masteries
21 | 8 | 1
Offensive Take everything that benefits Pantheon the most: Armor Pen Damage Crit Damage Attack Speed
Defensive Armor MR Strength of Spirit
(I feel armor/mr + strength of spirit is better than the xp from the utility tree)
Utility Improved Ghost
Runes
Marks Flat Damage
Seals Flat Mana Regen
Glyphs Mana Regen per Level
Quintessences Flat Armor Penetration
Keeping in mind my play style, I like to provide myself with a very strong early game, so I've devised this rune page and it's been working well for me. Damage marks are in general stronger than armor pen when a target has less than 30 armor (this goes with my early game focus). Flat mana regen seals allow Panth to take the offensive mastery and not run out of mana while harassing with Q early in the game. Mana regen per level glyphs allow Panth to itemize for damage/toughness late game without having mana problems. Armor Pen Quintessences give Panth 16 starting armor pen (this includes masteries. Most ranged dps/casters start out with 12-25 armor depending on masteries and rune pages)
I think that about covers it. Go out there and smash some faces!
maknoon seems to go mallet + atmas + ghostblade according to his last 2 games, any thoughts on this?
also, smash likes to do tank panth vs your anti-carry panth, is it more of a playstyle choice? i'd imagine that anti-carry panth is a bit less reliant on your teammates, which makes it a bit better of a solo queue build. Is this the sole reason or are there other considerations you make (i.e. an enemy comp that would encourage you to build off-tank, or the recent trend in ranged carries makes dps panth better)
On November 09 2010 09:01 barbsq wrote: maknoon seems to go mallet + atmas + ghostblade according to his last 2 games, any thoughts on this?
also, smash likes to do tank panth vs your anti-carry panth, is it more of a playstyle choice? i'd imagine that anti-carry panth is a bit less reliant on your teammates, which makes it a bit better of a solo queue build. Is this the sole reason or are there other considerations you make (i.e. an enemy comp that would encourage you to build off-tank, or the recent trend in ranged carries makes dps panth better)
from your #1 fan
Just different play styles, this guide is just the way I play Pantheon. It wouldn't be fair for me to say something is better or worse than another when I haven't thoroughly tried both. MaKNooN and Smash are both good players, so if it works for them it's probably a good build then =). I just feel that (at least in solo queue) I can have more of an effect if I am able to dish out enough damage to make myself a threat, especially if I take solo lane xp and gold.
Also, Smash, feel free to post your thoughts and builds here as well, the more suggestions the better.
ditch 6 flat damage marks and replace them with armor pen marks, replace your quints with Flat Damage. 6 Marks = 10 ArPen, 3 Quints = 10 ArPen. 6 Marks = 5.4 damage, 3 Quints = 6.75 damage. Straight up better to get the armor pen from marks than quints.
Interesting though, I opt for much more utility and defense to try to play attrition, but I'll try some of your stuff out tonight and I'll post my thoughts and the builds I usually do.
On November 09 2010 11:43 nyxnyxnyx wrote: What are your thoughts on going 0/21/9 instead?
0-21-9 is when you do the ghost/revive shit and build tanky with atma's and brutalizer imo. more maknoon style. just different style imouimuoumuoumoumuo
Can you elaborate on the 21st point in Offensive Mastery? As far as I know it only boosts non-scaling damage (i.e. base damage of attacks and spells) and so wouldn't that make it fairly lackluster on his Q which derives most of its damage from his attack damage? I just feel like you can get something better for the point
And for the crit damage, since your focus is on early game dominance I will take a level 4 skirmish (when you said you get your E)
At level 4 you have 78.015 AD (62.3 base *1.05 for offense mastery = 65.415 + 3 from masteries + 6.75 from quints + 2.85 from 3 flat AD marks) meaning your critical strike for their low health will hit for 163.8315.
If however you go more into utility, say just far enough to get the exp mastery (losing Offensive Mastery, crit damage and 3 AD) you will hit for 143.8 with the same crit. Both these numbers are "true" damage.
That means your target would need more then 1092.21 EHP against physical attacks with your current set up (assuming you switch to Smash's rune set up) or 958.667 EHP with the utility set up. Presuming the target has 30 armor, which may be high or low depending on the match up so this comparison isn't perfect, and you have 16 arpen, the target's max health would need to be greater then:
958.078 Max HP for the offensive mastery set-up 840.935 Max HP for the utility mastery set-up
I guess the point of all this math is if you are facing someone who will have circa 840 health at level 4 then you can be equally effective in lane against them with the experience mastery then the offensive one (read: still kill them in one crit once they are at or below 15% health) but if you think they will have more then that use the offensive set-up or try and save a Q for when they run.
hmm, not sure about the mastery thing yet, but on first try, the loci build hits like a fucking truck all game long. I honetly think the most revolutionary part of it to me is the 2-dblades, which for whatever reason I thought would slow Pantheon down too much but sweet merciful crap is it powerful. I miss the early mana regen of my 0/14/16 setup, but I haven't yet switch to doing some flat mana regen seals which may or may not sure this issue up. I'm super intrigued though because playing it correctly I was a fucking monster end game, dashing in and out of fights jumping and instagibbing ashe/annie/WW, it was a nice change of pace from the "omg, I hope they focus me and my team is good!" tanktheon build I had been using.
I had also lost confidence in boots first openings after failing mid vs. locodoco's trist and had gone back to opening red pot, but transitioning back to boots first felt smooth and I think I can relearn playing boots first matchups pretty quickly (though it still feels weird at first on lane vs. trist/mf/ashe when they come out with like 700 HP and trade a couple hundred HP in harass right off the bat... I dunno I think I just need to learn where to take safe autoattacks to get shield procs up better, I'm pretty sure that's what killed me vs. loco). perhaps red is necessary due to the close quarters at mid, whereas boots work better top, I'm not sure, have any thoughts Loci?
Wow really interesting stuff. I can't wait to try out some of your guys' suggestions. I was wondering if you guys found the pantheon build I have been running to be any decent and would like your opinions on it if possible. I have almost exclusively been playing a hybrid anti-carry/ tank Pantheon. Focusing on the utility tree with 9 points on the defensive masteries and going armor seals and mr per level glyphs with my marks and quints being armor pen. My two main items being ghostblade and brutalizer than I go straight into tank items. With the amount of armor pen (also the cheap atk damage) I get I feel as though I'm a constant threat to the oppositions carry (the active on ghostblade is just amazing) throughout the game. After I mainly stack all tank items, ranging from Banshees to Randuins and sometimes Sunfires. With the ghostblade I can almost always focus down their carry while at the same time being basically a tank. Also I feel that this way you can use your ult to be more offensive and actually jump into fights and then stun and destroy their carrying after jumping into the enemy team (as the enemy team is just wasting their time if they try to focus you as you are a tank). I find this build really effective because pantheon is so great early game that you can just be on top of anyone solo and then transitioning into a tank that can still dominate their carry is something I really find appealing. However the only downside is your team needs another carry or another form of dps as my pantheon just handles their carry and becomes an effective stun bot/tank.
Sorry if the post is long, but I really would like some feedback from some of the top pantheon players as I mostly play pantheon myself. I also can't wait to tryout Loci's pure anti carry and dps build. It sounds pretty devastating.
On November 09 2010 14:21 yazu wrote: Wow really interesting stuff. I can't wait to try out some of your guys' suggestions. I was wondering if you guys found the pantheon build I have been running to be any decent and would like your opinions on it if possible. I have almost exclusively been playing a hybrid anti-carry/ tank Pantheon. Focusing on the utility tree with 9 points on the defensive masteries and going armor seals and mr per level glyphs with my marks and quints being armor pen. My two main items being ghostblade and brutalizer than I go straight into tank items. With the amount of armor pen (also the cheap atk damage) I get I feel as though I'm a constant threat to the oppositions carry (the active on ghostblade is just amazing) throughout the game. After I mainly stack all tank items, ranging from Banshees to Randuins and sometimes Sunfires. With the ghostblade I can almost always focus down their carry while at the same time being basically a tank. Also I feel that this way you can use your ult to be more offensive and actually jump into fights and then stun and destroy their carrying after jumping into the enemy team (as the enemy team is just wasting their time if they try to focus you as you are a tank). I find this build really effective because pantheon is so great early game that you can just be on top of anyone solo and then transitioning into a tank that can still dominate their carry is something I really find appealing. However the only downside is your team needs another carry or another form of dps as my pantheon just handles their carry and becomes an effective stun bot/tank.
Sorry if the post is long, but I really would like some feedback from some of the top pantheon players as I mostly play pantheon myself. I also can't wait to tryout Loci's pure anti carry and dps build. It sounds pretty devastating.
Man Drop away my fellow Pantheonians
uh, so for tanktheon, I actually suggest skipping that 2nd brutalizer, it slows you down too much and is dead weight end game. The way I play it is bruta -> HoG -> Banshee's + Omen + Ghostblade (w/e order makes sense) -> Atma's impaler. Last item slot goes to Frozen mallet to make yourself truly no-escape combined with omen. However, my first impression is that Loci's build plays to pantheon's strengths much better than the tanktheon build does. One of the really interesting things I noticed was that between Ghostblade and LW, I actually had enough attack speed to maintain a few shield procs in teamfights so that even at only 87 armor, I wasn't too concerned with their phsycial damage output, which let me feel comfy going banshees to stop annie/WW from insta-gibbing me without worrying about the physical side of things.
Again, I'm really not sold on 21 offensive masteries (<3 utility), but the damage runes and some flat mana regen (I'm opting for 6 yellow flat mana regens and the rest of blue and yellow on per levels), do feel very very nice. It's really weird, but I'm actually considering some wonky shit like 11/7/12 now on the mastery setup to snag armor pen, strength of spirit, and meditation. I WANT MY CAKE AND TO EAT IT TOO DAMNIT!
What do I do top lane 1v1 vs garen? I zoned him super hard for the first part of the game but as soon as he got his warwick to come top he got time to grab his chain mail and that just screwed me over.
whatever you do, don't buffer aegis after your skyfall on him while he's backing.
seriously though, I dunno, I just rape him early. If he gets a chain vest... ok, I get a ward for jungle bush and just stay jungle side the whole time getting cs while he brush camps. if you're feeling really aggressive, just get wards for the bush in lane too so that you can zone him out of the brush. but seriously, meh, people care too much about zoning. If you get cs while he sits in the brush waiting for you to be stupid, you're winning the lane. then it pushes, you go mia and gank a lane and whoop de-frickin' doo, he's stuck last hitting on the tower and it's not like he's a good pusher anyway.
On November 09 2010 14:21 yazu wrote: Wow really interesting stuff. I can't wait to try out some of your guys' suggestions. I was wondering if you guys found the pantheon build I have been running to be any decent and would like your opinions on it if possible. I have almost exclusively been playing a hybrid anti-carry/ tank Pantheon. Focusing on the utility tree with 9 points on the defensive masteries and going armor seals and mr per level glyphs with my marks and quints being armor pen. My two main items being ghostblade and brutalizer than I go straight into tank items. With the amount of armor pen (also the cheap atk damage) I get I feel as though I'm a constant threat to the oppositions carry (the active on ghostblade is just amazing) throughout the game. After I mainly stack all tank items, ranging from Banshees to Randuins and sometimes Sunfires. With the ghostblade I can almost always focus down their carry while at the same time being basically a tank. Also I feel that this way you can use your ult to be more offensive and actually jump into fights and then stun and destroy their carrying after jumping into the enemy team (as the enemy team is just wasting their time if they try to focus you as you are a tank). I find this build really effective because pantheon is so great early game that you can just be on top of anyone solo and then transitioning into a tank that can still dominate their carry is something I really find appealing. However the only downside is your team needs another carry or another form of dps as my pantheon just handles their carry and becomes an effective stun bot/tank.
Sorry if the post is long, but I really would like some feedback from some of the top pantheon players as I mostly play pantheon myself. I also can't wait to tryout Loci's pure anti carry and dps build. It sounds pretty devastating.
Hmm... suppose so. I think the "stop harass and just farm" idea is good. My pantheon at the moment is too reliant on snowballing early from kills I think.
You should aim to profit from zoning. Either by cutting his EXP gain (super pro zoning) or out-CSing him. Just spamming harass isn't going to do anything.
From my experience, the circle doesn't appear if terrain blocks a large portion of it. If you'll notice, it hardly ever shows up on TT or in the jungle on Rift.
I'd just like to point out that I had a post about how you felt about doing that on Pantheon like a month ago Smash. ^____^ Loci stole from me ok. Jokes.
I 1v1'd Loci's Panth top a long time ago as Garen and got fb'd at lvl 2 and died again like 20 seconds after I came back lolololol. I was shame'd.
I think Pantheon beats up on most tanks. Sion rapes him and damage shield/heal tanks with disables who spec big armor (shens and tarics that I've seen, I'd guess Alistar's a nightmare too) are soft counters to solo Pantheon from my experience (just outlast him and assist ganks really well).
EDIT: and yea, fair enough, you totally asked why I didn't try d-blade shit. I won't doubt you again chrispy! hahaha, seriously I feel like such an idiot with how big a difference they make.
lol, all DPS carries (hard/soft, ranged/melee) like stacking Doran's Blade. I'm surprised you never once tried it out yourself. If it wasn't so simple, I'd write a Doran's stacking guide. Everyone should try it on any champion just to see how it goes.
Yea that's how I died to Sakura's Panth the other day when I was on Veigar, the fucking circle didn't show up, so I didn't have the time to pre-stun. If it didn't bug out she would have died, as I woulda pre-loaded stun and it would have given Sion enough time to come back for the second stun. Really lame.
On November 10 2010 02:00 NeoIllusions wrote: lol, all DPS carries (hard/soft, ranged/melee) like stacking Doran's Blade. I'm surprised you never once tried it out yourself. If it wasn't so simple, I'd write a Doran's stacking guide. Everyone should try it on any champion just to see how it goes.
actually I had tried it out once and hated how late my brutalizer was. it was an anomaly of a game that led me to a stupid generalized conclusion, haha.
Pantheon is new FOTM I see him in every game now and all the streams I've been watching have been playing him. (Elementz and Clever Advisor both playing him atm)
Is Panth actually FoTM now? Now everyone is going to be playing our dearest Mantheon and he'll turn into the new MF/Twitch/Kog =(.
Edit: I wasn't talking Hotshot into playing Panth, he was making a mastery/runepage for him and telling me my page was bad. So of course I had to show him that he understands nothing about the ways of Mantheon. He succumbed to my large brain.
On November 10 2010 07:53 LoCicero wrote: Is Panth actually FoTM now? Now everyone is going to be playing our dearest Mantheon and he'll turn into the new MF/Twitch/Kog =(.
Edit: I wasn't talking Hotshot into playing Panth, he was making a mastery/runepage for him and telling me my page was bad. So of course I had to show him that he understands nothing about the ways of Mantheon. He succumbed to my large brain.
lolol, <3 large brains. They're so sexy.
But yeah, I think the combination of gosu LoCi logic and jiji raping made Hotshot want to Panth again.
I saw you changed your Marks and Quints. I thought to myself "Gizmo would be proud. He influenced LoCi"
I just feel like I barely feel the increase in damage but I feel so much more fragile and mana-starved . I actually can't make up my mind what split between defensive and utility I like best. 0/9/21 (1 defensive mastery), 0/11/19 (maxed armor, 1 defensive mastery), 0/12/18 (1 in harden skin), and 0/14/16 (3 in harden skin or 2 in veteran's scars, w/e floats your boat) all have a lot of appeal IMO.
On November 10 2010 08:05 LoCicero wrote: Gizmo Math > All
how the hell do you manage to only die once or twice a game Loci!?!?!? Maybe it's just that you have more competent teammates at your level but I'm frequently jumping the opposing carry only to look back and see that my whole team is focusing the opposing tanks while I get ffed by all their damage dealers (I still usually kill one or two of them).
in other news, last night I settled in on 0/12/18 for my masteries
and then starting weighing all the options for the remaining 9 points. Since I carry Ghost/Flash, I wanted to get Improved Flash and I also wanted quickness to more solidly abuse the mobility that opening boots on a 330 base MS character affords.
3 Quickness 1 Improved Flash
So now 5 points are left and I'm basically left weighing 1 Armor, 1 Harden Skin and 1 Defensive Mastery + 2 x ???? vs. maxing utility (6(or 4)% CDR, 15(or 30)% Buff Duration, 15% SS CDR). I'm honestly not that crazy about CDR on Panth, nor do I think he needs 15% SS CDR so I opted for:
3rd point in Armor 2nd point in Defensive Mastery 1st point in Harden Skin
For the last 2 spots, I was left with the choice of 30% buff increase vs. 4% CDR vs. 3 in Harden Skin vs. 2 in Veteran's Scars. I think Harden Skin out performs Veteran's Scars in lane (outperforms once you take 30 Auto-attacks, counting creep aggro), but Harden Skin's 2nd and 3rd point have deminishing returns compared to the first point (first point is 1, 2nd and 3rd are 0.5 each). As I said earlier I'm not crazy about CDR on Panth, so I eventually settled on 30% Buff Duration increase because of how brutal a red-buff Pantheon ult gank is throughout the mid game.
2 Utility Mastery.
So that's how I got there, though I think there's a pretty strong case for ditching those 10-12th points in defensive to max utility (I just like taking -3 damage from minions, it's very strong for fighting in lane).
veteran's scars is, imo, a very overrated mastery. I personally don't find it terribly strong early game. I was doing 0/9/21 before I switched over those points, but I could really feel the missing Defensive mastery and harden skin. I dunno, maybe I just need to be less aggressive in lane or something to compensate for 0/9/21.
I'd like to start the Smash is better than Loci at Pantheon movement:
Exhibit A:
Exhibit B:
in conclusion, ranked pentakills are the only stat that truly matters.
EDIT: this also resolves the masteries debate. 0/9/21 is optimal for getting a Pentakill in the past couple hours as SmashGizmo, and thus by extension should probably always be used on all characters.
So after Loci, I was also checking all the other good Pantheon players I could think of last night, and I didn't see a single ranked Pentakill amongst them, come on Pantheon community, get on my level. (shut up, YOU'RE petty and vain!)
Also, you should've pointed out the 1703 vs. OMGWTFBBQ2000+ elo differential in your rebuttal... stay in law school kids!
I'm actually planning to not get on skype or LoL tonight. Way too tired and have been looking at a computer screen for like, the past 200 hours straight between work and LoL. It would be better to yell at me in this public forum or through PM or later.
p.s. I can't be brought back down to earth yet, it's too fun trolling with a SS of a Pentakill.
On November 12 2010 05:59 Orpheos wrote: arent there rumors of them buffing panth again? make it so that HSS isnt strictly worse than just autoattacking?
i hope so, HSS is literally one of the most worthless skill in game right now, whatever happens though, i hope they keep his spear shot unchanged lol...
anyone tried trolling a panth game by going sheen on him?
On November 09 2010 16:38 Mogwai wrote: whatever you do, don't buffer aegis after your skyfall on him while he's backing.
seriously though, I dunno, I just rape him early. If he gets a chain vest... ok, I get a ward for jungle bush and just stay jungle side the whole time getting cs while he brush camps. if you're feeling really aggressive, just get wards for the bush in lane too so that you can zone him out of the brush. but seriously, meh, people care too much about zoning. If you get cs while he sits in the brush waiting for you to be stupid, you're winning the lane. then it pushes, you go mia and gank a lane and whoop de-frickin' doo, he's stuck last hitting on the tower and it's not like he's a good pusher anyway.
On November 15 2010 14:17 LoCicero wrote: Smash on CLG stream. Gogo #1 Pantheon!
lol.... Clever just let you auto attack him at lvl 1 for a kill. Pretty Epic.
hahaha, man, I fuckin' rocked him so hard. He was all like, fighting me and shit and I was just thinking, "ok, I know he has ignite, but is he seriously stupid enough to level 1 fight me with saphire crystal opening..? yep, guess so, LOLOLOL, BRING MORG UP PLZ KTHX!"
On November 15 2010 14:17 LoCicero wrote: Smash on CLG stream. Gogo #1 Pantheon!
lol.... Clever just let you auto attack him at lvl 1 for a kill. Pretty Epic.
hahaha, man, I fuckin' rocked him so hard. He was all like, fighting me and shit and I was just thinking, "ok, I know he has ignite, but is he seriously stupid enough to level 1 fight me with saphire crystal opening..? yep, guess so, LOLOLOL, BRING MORG UP PLZ KTHX!"
On November 15 2010 18:39 RoieTRS wrote: Manamune is terrible never ever build it just get armor pen red/purples and mp5/l yellows and blues,
R>Q>W>E, grab E at 8
dblade brutalizer merctreads bloodthrister bloodthirster stack dblades and get elixers as necesary always wards
iirc smash likes to take manamune on jungle panth, it was something like lantern, manamune, bruta, bveil, ghostblade (edit: this may have changed tho, i'm not good at keeping up to date with this stuff)
also mindless bloodthirster stacking is stupid, you need at least 1 survivability item, he's melee for christ's sake, loci may be confident enough with his panth to skimp on defense, but he doesn't neglect it, also boots first openings is what ive been told most good panths do nowadays, not dblade openings, (tho post-boots dblade stack is good)
also, whats the thinking behind inf edge vs bloodthirster, i feel like edge has good synergy with ghostblade and hss passive and might be worthwhile, but is thirster that important for lifesteal and higher q dmg (not to mention cheaper)?
On November 15 2010 18:39 RoieTRS wrote: Manamune is terrible never ever build it just get armor pen red/purples and mp5/l yellows and blues,
R>Q>W>E, grab E at 8
dblade brutalizer merctreads bloodthrister bloodthirster stack dblades and get elixers as necesary always wards
iirc smash likes to take manamune on jungle panth, it was something like lantern, manamune, bruta, bveil, ghostblade (edit: this may have changed tho, i'm not good at keeping up to date with this stuff)
I honestly haven't played jungle panth in awhile, but Manamune makes the build actually work. Without it, you can't ever give up the blue buff and it's rare that you'll have a team that can afford to have Pantheon taking their blue. You might be able to just get away with doing the build with mana regen blues or something, but yea, I haven't really had the interest to play around with it since I got serious about laning with Panth again.
On November 15 2010 18:59 barbsq wrote: also mindless bloodthirster stacking is stupid, you need at least 1 survivability item, he's melee for christ's sake, loci may be confident enough with his panth to skimp on defense, but he doesn't neglect it, also boots first openings is what ive been told most good panths do nowadays, not dblade openings, (tho post-boots dblade stack is good)
Loci's build is #1. BT Stacking will rarely work and not getting ghostblade is terrible. I'll frequently go back with 2K gold after I have my brutalizer and I used to have problems finishing ghostblade over getting a BF Sword, but I no longer do. It's such an easy decision, ghostblade is just too strong and too vital to your job (sticking to and killing their carry).
Boots are the preferred opening because they give you 3 HP Pots and give you the ability to actually set up hit trades that abuse your passive. The only other opening I even consider is fort pot if I really wanna bully someone around, but it's a rare matchup where I feel like fort pot is worth the 300 gold investment.
On November 15 2010 18:59 barbsq wrote: also, whats the thinking behind inf edge vs bloodthirster, i feel like edge has good synergy with ghostblade and hss passive and might be worthwhile, but is thirster that important for lifesteal and higher q dmg (not to mention cheaper)?
the main problem with IE is that Pantheon gets poor returns from % crit chance due to the passive portion of HSS. the other issue is that + crit damage tends to be overkill when most of your crits come from that passive and thus you rarely need more than double damage to finish off a sub 15% opponent (unless it's a tank, but then we're talking about the mop-up stage of a teamfight so it rarely makes or breaks the fight for you). I have gone IE before and I have literally never been happy about making that choice over a bloodthirster.
really it's just more about AD runes getting buffed and thus being better early on. at the moment, I'm debating removing my AD reds and maxing out ArPen Reds and keeping the AD Quints (15 ArPen, 6.75 AD instead of 10 ArPen, 9.45 AD), but either way, you do really feel those Flat AD runes early and Pantheon needs to get rolling early, so they are a pretty natural fit. ArPen also loses some of it's late-game stock with the Loci build because of the negative synergy with LW.
In other news, Pantheon on TT is a beast. The lanes are so narrow that he actually beats Kennen because Kennen doesn't have any angles to shuriken him from.
The build is fort pot -> boots -> 2/3 d-blades -> ghostblade -> whatever boots 2 you need -> frozen Mallet with a steady stream of fort pots as they seem necessary. He's like a fucking super-carry on that map because of how short the games are.
On November 23 2010 04:22 myopia wrote: wow I've never made the jumping + killing people with spears -> FF Dragoon connection before. Purple Pantheon needs to happen.
He'd need pretty much a full reskin. Different styled shield, more heavily armored, different styled helmet... I'd drop 900 RP on it though if they did it because I think it would look totally badass.
* Overall we wanted to shift some of Pantheon’s power from Spear Shot to Heartseeker Strike so he can better scale into late-game * Spear Shot o Base damage reduced to 12/24/36/48/60, from 30/40/50/60/70 * Heartseeker Strike o Percent of Attack Damage increased to 28/32/36/40/44%, from 18/22/26/30/34% * Grand Skyfall o Mana cost reduced to 150, from 150/250/350
I'm not too worried, it should make him more well-rounded than he is now. Heartseeker is getting about 12 more damage a tick now @ lvl 1, which is significant.
I imagine it will just be a question of how many disables they're packing and then you'll make a decision on Q vs. E with W always being the 2nd priority.
i think those changes will kill pantheon personally. who cares if hes better lategame if he cant farm well early game. His strength comes from free farming his lane early since his opponent unless its like gragas or malphite mid or somethin wont be able to do shit
On November 25 2010 10:07 oberon wrote: Doesn't this just make him more bursty and less harassy in lane?
IMO it just makes his laning worse. E being "better" only becomes relevant at level 4, when you actually get around to taking a level of it. By then, the amount of damage you've lost from Q doing less far outweighs whatever minor gains to your burst HSS adds.
On November 25 2010 10:07 oberon wrote: Doesn't this just make him more bursty and less harassy in lane?
IMO it just makes his laning worse. E being "better" only becomes relevant at level 4, when you actually get around to taking a level of it. By then, the amount of damage you've lost from Q doing less far outweighs whatever minor gains to your burst HSS adds.
it used to be that panths hss was so fucking awesome that you leveled it over q, q was a lvl 1 zoning tool so that you could start your lane advantage into a lvl 4-5 kill with hss. The current trend of getting e only at lvl 4 only started because ppl figured out almost instantly how badly they nerfed hss, you simply cannot do dmg with it. If it returned to a similar state to its former glory, you would be getting it lvls 2 and 3 and @ 4 or 5 could spear->stun->hss->spear combo them to death vs his current state where he autoattacks instead of the hss
Re-reading this, Panth loses either 8 or 18 damage on spear at level 1 (website says it starts at +20, patch notes at +30), but gains a flat 10% phys scaling on HSS (over its current scaling). Since that 10% is double for champs, that's a 20% phys scaling. That's 10 damage at level 1 (per hit). If you hit twice, and one of them crits (and HSS always crits if someone is low), that's a 30 damage buff. Assuming the 18 damage nerf on spear, and 2 spears in a combo, the combo is nerfed 6 damage.
So it seems like a worst case scenario is you're losing maybe 20 damage off your level 1 combo, and getting another 10% (20% vs. champs) AD scaling on HSS.
Nope spear doesn't crit. IE would be overkill on panth imo. Anyway, imoimo I'll still stick with the q>w, with HSS at 4 skilling order and Spear->stun->auto att->spear combo.
But then again, Panth might become the new garen, forever waiting in the brush to HSS.
What HSS needs is a slow effect attached to it. Or an armor pen boost. Basically, if its just damage, its either strictly better or strictly worse than auto attacking.
1. hss doesn't crit, never has and probably never will 2. old pantheon skill order was qweeer -> r > e > q >= w, there was no point in e before w because it was strictly a combo. 3. the biggest problem with his focus being HSS is that he'll have Kat syndrome (omg, they have disables, I guess I'm useless). if those numbers are right though, he'll still just be able to max spear anyway if it seems HSS would be unreliable. 4. what killed the level 3-5 q->w->e combo was the mana cost of Q at level 1. it used to be 30, now it's 45. you can sustain 45 mana chucks alright, but you can't stockpile the 150ish mana needed for w->e anymore while harassing. 5. nerfing level 1 spear shot, be it by 10% or 20%, is still quite brutal to pantheon's early game. level 1 is very important for Panth in a lot of matchups and if you nerf level 1 spear a lot, I'm quite sure that Panth vs. casters will change quite a bit.
against multiple targets who don't invest in armor, I've been considering getting SotD instead of LW recently and I think it would be better. The active would give better penetration vs. targets with < 100 armor and it gives better attack speed + better damage/autoattack with the bonus 100 every 4 hits vs. 10/hit. It would also prevent gay shit like towerdiving someone just to have your auto-crit get dodged. Of course if you need to do sustained deeps vs. tanks lw makes more sense, but I think SotD has a situational place in Panth builds ever since they reduced its cost and increased it's attack speed.
either way though, to think ASPD is a bad stat based on the viability of a move on a 20 second CD is a bit naive. either way you'll want to be putting your beefy AD to good use between CDs and autoattacking is a large part of that so I imagine it does little to change itemization after the patch.
for skilling, my first games tonight will be QWEQQR -> ????. I'd like to see what his level 3 burst looks like now, because as far as I can tell, his level one E is going to be hitting much harder than it ever has in the past. Leveling E early seems stupid to me because it increases E's mana cost for the lowest per level damage increase in HSS's history at the point where Pantheon's mana constraints are the worst they've ever been. Just doesn't make sense to level it past 1 before level 6 IMO. And later, meh, I dunno, again, the returns per level on HSS are pretty meh right now at +3% damage/level, I think basically all that this did to my theory of playing Pantheon is move level 1 of HSS from level 4 to level 3 and make it acceptable to use HSS active at 1 rank.
So I've played some games with new Panth. Riot is terrible at programming, so his E is bugged again and the first tick does double damage... Sooo, with this bug I went back to the old level scheme of Q W E E E R Q E etc... Since his E is somewhat front-loaded he doesn't need the extra stun duration. He seems more similar to old Pantheon. I have to admit I am pretty rusty with oldschool Panth. I seem to have forgotten how to use E correctly, lol. Buuut, once Riot realizes the bug I might agree with Smash. E @ lvl 1 is still dangerous, and by maxing Q you have more ranged strength and still have decent melee strength with E. We'll see once they fix the bug.
that company needs some fucking QA, lol. it's like they don't even test for this shit before they ship it :p. shit like that happens during coding though, and I really do blame not catching shit like that on Quality Assurance practices (or lack thereof) and not coding... NO I'M NOT JUST SAYING THIS BECAUSE I'M A CODE MONKEY.
ahem, anyway, for me the Q vs. E decision (after they fix it, lol) is more about mana efficiency at low levels than anything else. Q gets good damage returns and doesn't up its mana cost. E gets somewhat poor damage returns and increases its mana cost. Seems like a pretty straightforward choice to me.
On December 02 2010 08:53 UniversalSnip wrote: turns out the supposed E bug... didn't exist. lol.
Are you sure? Do you have the source?
They must have made his damage just come sooner in the channel than it used to, because it seems like the damage on the move ends sooner than it used to. This was one of my theories, that it still ticks 5 times but the damage at the beginning comes so fast that the health bar jumps down at the start. Maybe I'm just crazy and used to a HSS that did zero damage.
I tested it out with Nufann in a practice game. It looked alright (not buggy). Nufann wanted to test it out for himself because a lot of people are saying HSS is bugged.
Yeah I just tested it out and it actually doesn't seemed to be bugged. It just does a lot of damage, haha. I was hitting for about 180 damage with E @ lvl 1.
as i said before, level 1 HSS is hitting at it's hardest ever, it's pretty crazy just as a tool to work through all the fucking exhausts you see nowadays and can really do a number on opposing teams combined with a group disable. it feels good to be HSSing again, but I'm sad he's even more FotM than before now :\.
How does the HSS damage scale through midgame? Can you do the level 3 "now you're dead" combo still? Is it hard to manage the mana for him? Did your build change?
Yea my Panth is being put to sleep for awhile especially since people ARE BANNING HIM. Ffs wtf is this. Aww well. I guess I'll wait till Riot takes him out again.
I picked Pantheon yesterday, because I've heard E is doing damage again. I did some sexy Ghostblade build + dorans and I fuckin raped their squishes in 2 seconds again. Teemo/Ashe, ah feels so good to buttfuck with Panthy again <3
Sorry if this question would be better served in another thread, but i'm watching Roku stream MaknooN playing Veigar, so it made me wonder - is there a mechanical similarity between Pantheon and Veigar, or is it just coincidence that multiple good Pantheon players are also good Veigar players?
On December 02 2010 18:52 Niton wrote: Sorry if this question would be better served in another thread, but i'm watching Roku stream MaknooN playing Veigar, so it made me wonder - is there a mechanical similarity between Pantheon and Veigar, or is it just coincidence that multiple good Pantheon players are also good Veigar players?
It has something to do with stuff falling from the sky fo sho!
On December 02 2010 15:53 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: How does the HSS damage scale through midgame? Can you do the level 3 "now you're dead" combo still? Is it hard to manage the mana for him? Did your build change?
Ya I was doing hte "you're" dead combo on squishies up to the point we were pushing into their base where it started not instagibbing their squishies last night. Then again I'm not great so I'm not playing great opponents but it seems to do a lot. I know it was the reason I was raping a kog'maw mid. Spear twice, then stun, HSS, spear once more and he's dead.
Also, I dun know if it has always been like this or was jut a bug in one game last night or what but I noticed that HSS animation, and it seemed damage, continued even though I moved before it was fully done a few times. Im guessing a bug cause one time when I did HSS then moved like immediately after starting it it seemed to move in front of me.
On December 02 2010 15:53 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: How does the HSS damage scale through midgame? Can you do the level 3 "now you're dead" combo still? Is it hard to manage the mana for him? Did your build change?
even at level 1, it's fine through the midgame, at level 1, the damage scaling is better than it was at level 3 last patch and is slightly less than level 3 during HSS's heyday. The mana management is the most difficult aspect of Pantheon's early play when you're thinking of using HSS, and to clarify, unless you're get them at half health with half or more of your mana by level 3, you should probably do Q at level 3 and E at level 4. E at level 3 is just a way to threaten the kill combo. I think Loci's build is still the way to go for items. The only other option I see is to go for the old SotO and focus E build (QWEEER, R > E > Q > W, boots -> bruta -> SotO -> mercs -> ghostblade + GA), but it seems scrubby to lean on a snowball item and a stationary channeling nuke when there's a more resilient build out there.
On December 02 2010 18:52 Niton wrote: Sorry if this question would be better served in another thread, but i'm watching Roku stream MaknooN playing Veigar, so it made me wonder - is there a mechanical similarity between Pantheon and Veigar, or is it just coincidence that multiple good Pantheon players are also good Veigar players?
Yeeaaahhhhh, panth got new passive: "player plays Veigar next game"
no seriously, I fucking hate veigar. I suck at landing his combo, have no idea what skills to level or items to buy ever and want to punch a baby right in the face every time he says anything.
On December 03 2010 01:31 Mogwai wrote: no seriously, I fucking hate veigar. I suck at landing his combo, have no idea what skills to level or items to buy ever and want to punch a baby right in the face every time he says anything.
Stop laughing, i AM evil!
(btw even though i consider myself doing the best when playing casters i suck at Veigar too -.-")
On December 03 2010 02:31 Taurent wrote: what do you guys think of manamune on panth ? it gives both AD and mana, which he really needs
my position has always been that manamune is only good on Pantheon when you're jungling because it lets you run Armor Yellows and MRes Blues without needing to hog blue buff late game. it comes too late to help laning Pantheon when he still needs the mana, so you can't use it instead of the runes, and with the runes you don't need the mana, which makes it a poor investment.
i used to do a weird build going manamune>Atma>Banshee veil>tank items, for a slightly stronger late game with good tanking power with decent dmg, but the thing is that pantheon's main strength lies in the early game, and if u do not capitalize on that, its pretty damn stupid. there are loads of champs out there that has a much more decent mid/late game.
anyhow i'm very confused with what riot has in mind for pantheon, its pretty obvious they want him to be strong early game, spear and W is enough power to have a strong presence, the problem is with pantheon's mid-late game, and coveniently riot has a room to tweak the champ by having an essentially useless nerfed to ground HSS to play around with...
so they corrected their initial "mistake" by making HSS worthless, now their plan of fixing pantheons late game is by partially reversing what they did in the first place? makes perfect sense! wtf do they exactly want to see in pantheon in the late game? an initiator? a semi carry? a semi tank?
from what it looks like riot has no idea what they want themselves -.-
not that i'm complaining, i get to relive the glory days of pantheon instant-gibbing squishies in lanes :D
um, Pantheon is your quintessential Melee DPS Carry. He is made to be a more durable damage dealer that hits like a truck and in this role he is very successful. Pantheon's late game is weaker than his early game, but I'm not sure what people are looking for when it comes to this anymore... With the LW change and the damage scaling buff to Spear Shot that came with season 1, his late game is pretty darn good.
Like most Melee DPS Carries, he has the choice between forsaking damage items and trying to outlast the opposing team and building damage items and hunting opposing carries in the late game. In theory this is really no different from the choice that someone like Xin, WW, Mundo, Udyr, etc has, but the practical difference is that Pantheon scales incredibly well with Attack Damage and without AD he's left doing considerably worse damage than those characters.
So basically he ends up being a Melee carry along the lines of Trynd/Yi/Shaco who actually builds primarily offensive and makes hunting the opposing carries a priority. What makes him so capable at it next to those guys is that while he's lacking an escape and isn't quite as good at autoattacking, he's got a stun jump to make catching up easier, has better stats for surviving vs. a DPS carry (armor and passive), and he has a global ult so that when he solo pushes the way those other jerks do, he still is a threat in teamfights (not to mention this also allows him to forgo the wall of tanks and support and get right to the opposing carry assuming you have good prediction and can place your ult where it needs to be). With HSS getting buffed as it did, he also has the remarkable trait of being able to fight through exhaust 100 times better than Trynd and Yi.
One of the things that people need to realize about Pantheon is that having Pantheon on your team makes having a ranged carry unnecessary. It's pretty hard to craft a team around Pantheon AND another AD champ because suddenly you're looking at 2 characters best on a solo lane and still need a jungler, a tank, AP damage, and support, which can only really be accomplished if you do something like send your ranged carry bot to be babysat by your support, with a tank in the jungle and an AP carry on the other solo. It makes it a pretty tricky affair, and while it's doable, I think too often people think they NEED a ranged DPS without thinking about how having Pantheon removes the reason they need a ranged DPS (as split pushing with a global ult lets Pantheon apply pressure that forces down towers or forces 5v4 fights, rather than needing a ranged DPS to chip away at towers in a standoff).
(12+56)x5!=700. Locodoco does not deserve to be asian.
But still, HSS hits for a fucking ton right now, it really feels like it got overbuffed. It's not even that everyone is used to the tickle strike of this summer, right now it just feels OP again.
(And on an unrelated note, any character viable without locket is OP.)
I don't agree that pantheon needs a solo lane, he's so good at shutting down duos with a partner.
On December 03 2010 08:48 r33k wrote: (12+56)x5!=700. Locodoco does not deserve to be asian.
But still, HSS hits for a fucking ton right now, it really feels like it got overbuffed. It's not even that everyone is used to the tickle strike of this summer, right now it just feels OP again.
(And on an unrelated note, any character viable without locket is OP.)
I'm pretty sure he was best with locket before, dunno after patch.
On December 03 2010 13:15 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: "whoops, sorry guys, we made a mistake--HSS is NOT intended to do damage..."
Hahaha, yeah, that's what it feels like. I'm actually quite surprised at the amount of QQ that has appeared on the council forums about Panth... Oh well...
A suggestion I heard was to turn his Q into a skillshot. I actually think this would be a good change. The reason Panth is so strong in lane (which is the main reason for the QQ from what I can see) is because before he hits lvl 3 he can Q spam you down to probably half life, even through a health pot or two. Then he hits lvl 3 and kills you with HSS. If Q was a skillshot it would be much harder for him to bring people down to low life, thus making it harder to kill people with his lvl 3 combo.
Speaking of pantheon though, is it worth it to pour points into E before level 14? I've been going QWQE or QWEQ then R>Q>W>E and it's crushing people, but I wonder about trying to gib harder with HSS.
On December 03 2010 21:15 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Speaking of pantheon though, is it worth it to pour points into E before level 14? I've been going QWQE or QWEQ then R>Q>W>E and it's crushing people, but I wonder about trying to gib harder with HSS.
after maxing spearshot, ive actually been lvling aegis to 2 or 3 then maxing hss then finishing aegis lvls, its been working for me
On December 03 2010 13:15 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: "whoops, sorry guys, we made a mistake--HSS is NOT intended to do damage..."
Hahaha, yeah, that's what it feels like. I'm actually quite surprised at the amount of QQ that has appeared on the council forums about Panth... Oh well...
A suggestion I heard was to turn his Q into a skillshot. I actually think this would be a good change. The reason Panth is so strong in lane (which is the main reason for the QQ from what I can see) is because before he hits lvl 3 he can Q spam you down to probably half life, even through a health pot or two. Then he hits lvl 3 and kills you with HSS. If Q was a skillshot it would be much harder for him to bring people down to low life, thus making it harder to kill people with his lvl 3 combo.
there's already a spear throw skillshot I don't think they'd do that. besides, that'd ruin his laning without making SS do too much damage which of course wouldn't work yaddayaddayadda, he's fine where he is stop bitching people.
On December 03 2010 21:15 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: Speaking of pantheon though, is it worth it to pour points into E before level 14? I've been going QWQE or QWEQ then R>Q>W>E and it's crushing people, but I wonder about trying to gib harder with HSS.
On December 02 2010 15:18 Mogwai wrote: QWEQQRQWQWREEEERWW imo
On December 04 2010 02:25 r33k wrote: How many dblades have you guys been going for? 2-3? Into ghostblade+lw with option for bt/IE?
typically 2 into GB into BT. LW is your way to play catchup to armor stacking, it's not something you need to prioritize until your targets are getting some serious armor (and if they're only getting a little armor, SotD might even be better).
On December 04 2010 02:30 -Kato- wrote: Thoughts on skilling R at lvl 6 and then maxing the QWE and finishing R at 17 and 18?
it's a bad idea. I used to do this because I hated needing to use my ult and not having the mana for it, but I switched off of doing that for the lower CD and increased damage even before they finally made the rank 2 and rank 3 mana cost 150 (which eliminates the only reason to not level it).
I've been doing r>e>w=q with 1 point in q at lvl 1 and it's been working really well for me, but dunno if it's optimal. The E buff and Q nerf made me try it out and i've been going ridiculous things like 19-2 in most games though, even against 10,000 stuns.
Old school Mallet/Atma build. It's not that weird. It's just "modern" Panth builds have shifted to become even more offensive (Blade stacking => GB/BT)
On December 07 2010 00:56 Mogwai wrote: I hate that stupid build. I could never do well with it except on TT.
Shake's right though, you should probably stfu neo, Maknoob king.
Prolly why you thought I was weird when I brought up how Maknoon was running that build and kicking ass at the start of S1 before deciding to carry with Corki instead for a bit.
Can someone make a mini guide for the new Panth? Also, I've been going Dblade first due to them buffing the dmg on it and since laning is less about q spam but about doing more damage. How bout you guys?
idk, its really hard for me to give up that movespeed. panth's q range is just short enough that i really like that ms advantage to consistently harass them. mybe if i went ms quints... but then i'd lose the apen, which isnt really worth it imo
edit: i'd imagine it certainly has its place in certain mu's tho
I still max the stun first, having a longer duration on the stun is better than gibbing the carry in teamfights imo. Depends how the game is going though, and he is your main, so I'll try out 3 points in w.
meh, I don't think it really matters, just still max Q first and don't leave your W at level 1. Not that it really matters because he's insta-banned over more powerful characters like Malphite.
Its going to be interesting to see what happens in the new patch. Im hoping that by rushing the new last whisper you can offset all the pain he took to his q and e.
I'm actually just going to ditch LW unless I need to kill tanks and build SotD. Then again, I never hopped back on the HSS bandwagon, so that has something to do with it. LW just became a much better item for a HSS centric build.
On December 15 2010 01:14 Mogwai wrote: I'm actually just going to ditch LW unless I need to kill tanks and build SotD. Then again, I never hopped back on the HSS bandwagon, so that has something to do with it. LW just became a much better item for a HSS centric build.
On December 15 2010 01:14 Mogwai wrote: I'm actually just going to ditch LW unless I need to kill tanks and build SotD. Then again, I never hopped back on the HSS bandwagon, so that has something to do with it. LW just became a much better item for a HSS centric build.
You're going to get to play Panth again. uhappy?
I actually have surprisingly little faith that people will stop banning/QQing. Pandora's box has been opened and Pantheon is screwed all over again. HSS needs to be removed from the game because it's a move that inherently causes QQ.
But yes, I'm happy that there is a non-zero chance that I'll be able to play him again.
On December 15 2010 01:18 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: By "I never hopped back on the HSS bandwagon" you mean "I wasn't maxing E over Q/W" right?
Because HSS trucks fools nowadays lolol.
Well, sorta. After the hotfix I still wasn't casting it very often. When it did 28% at level 1, fuck yea I trucked people with it, but when it went down to 24%, meh, I hardly ever used it over Q->W->Auto->Auto->Q->Crit. That is in the single game I actually got to play Pantheon after the hotfix...
I can't wait until panth is nerfed. Most imbalanced champion the game has ever seen, even more imbalanced than he was before his rightful nerf.
Lvl 3, 100 hp panth > 800 hp malzahar, very balanced. So wait, armor counters panth, right? Nope, 2500 hp and 171 armor, still get one-shotted by him. Can't wait until the patch, what a broken champion.
On December 15 2010 01:38 Mogwai wrote: I actually have surprisingly little faith that people will stop banning/QQing. Pandora's box has been opened and Pantheon is screwed all over again. HSS needs to be removed from the game because it's a move that inherently causes QQ.
I think that HSS is like Judgment in that it's a skill that does more damage to noobs, and therefore causes QQ.
Here's how I actually see it... the problem with HSS is that it's like death lotus (AoE damage channel), but Aegis is like a shunpo that stuns. Imagine if shunpo stunned... Imagine what people would be like if they just had to sit there in DL for a second and take it before they could start moving. That's the issue right there. In order for it to hit strong enough to be useful later on (due to it being high risk as a short range channel), it has to hit hard enough to feel abusive during laning, ESPECIALLY when put on a character with a jump + stun ability. So that's the problem. The ability is unbalanceable when put on a character with aegis because it's either never worth the points or feels cheap during laning.
On December 17 2010 05:31 arb wrote: HSS fucking stupid now, get stunned and HSS and just watch 3/4 of my hp disappear, think your safe? nope Spear incoming and you die.
I didnt expect a like 10-15% change on its scaling to make it the most ridiculous move ive ever fucking seen
it's at the same numbers it was at before season 1, you should've expected exactly this.
On December 18 2010 13:07 sRapers_ValkS wrote: do you still jungle with panth? I rewatched those videos you posted a while ago and if he's still strong in the jungle i'd love to play there.
i basically just really want to play a jungler =S
videos if other's don't know what I'm talking about:
On December 18 2010 13:07 sRapers_ValkS wrote: do you still jungle with panth? I rewatched those videos you posted a while ago and if he's still strong in the jungle i'd love to play there.
i basically just really want to play a jungler =S
videos if other's don't know what I'm talking about:
On December 18 2010 13:07 sRapers_ValkS wrote: do you still jungle with panth? I rewatched those videos you posted a while ago and if he's still strong in the jungle i'd love to play there.
i basically just really want to play a jungler =S
videos if other's don't know what I'm talking about:
it's controversial, but I think it's the right solution.
Read your post, and I disagree with it.
I'm not a Pantheon player, but here's my two cents on the issue:
People QQing on the forums about Pantheon isn't an issue. What causes the QQ is an issue; Pantheon being too strong, or at least too good of a pubstomper. While your analysis of HSS is pretty much spot on, I believe you can have less drastic solutions to the issue:
First, not all champions need to be equally good in early, mid and lategame. Zilean and LeBlanc are strong in early game, but weak in lategame; Tryndamere and Sivir aren't too good in early game, but are very strong in late game. As such, having a champion who excels at laning and small-scale encounters isn't a problem in and of itself.
Second, you can tweak the champion around so as to give him interesting tradeoffs for early midgame. Make it painful to max HSS as early as possible, by making the opportunity cost high;
i) For Spear Shot, you could change its scaling with AD to something like 60/85/110/135/160%, or give it a higher base cooldown which decreases with skill level, making it significantly weaker for midgame if it's low level (adjust base damage upwards as appropriate to not mess with him without AD items).
ii) For Aegis, you could make its stun less reliable for hitting a full HSS until Aegis is at higher skill levels (might already be this way), or make its range scale with skill level.
The idea here is to give Pantheon interesting tradeoffs so that he has real weaknesses in exchange for maxing out HSS early and making it so potent.
On a related note, I wonder how giving Pantheon bonus armor / mres during HSS channeling would work to make the move more viable in team fights... it shouldn't make it stronger during laning because people are desperately trying to get away from him, not hitting him back during HSS. It could be like a mini Meditate from Yi.
it's controversial, but I think it's the right solution.
Read your post, and I disagree with it.
I'm not a Pantheon player, but here's my two cents on the issue:
People QQing on the forums about Pantheon isn't an issue. What causes the QQ is an issue; Pantheon being too strong, or at least too good of a pubstomper. While your analysis of HSS is pretty much spot on, I believe you can have less drastic solutions to the issue:
First, not all champions need to be equally good in early, mid and lategame. Zilean and LeBlanc are strong in early game, but weak in lategame; Tryndamere and Sivir aren't too good in early game, but are very strong in late game. As such, having a champion who excels at laning and small-scale encounters isn't a problem in and of itself.
Second, you can tweak the champion around so as to give him interesting tradeoffs for early midgame. Make it painful to max HSS as early as possible, by making the opportunity cost high;
i) For Spear Shot, you could change its scaling with AD to something like 60/85/110/135/160%, or give it a higher base cooldown which decreases with skill level, making it significantly weaker for midgame if it's low level (adjust base damage upwards as appropriate to not mess with him without AD items).
ii) For Aegis, you could make its stun less reliable for hitting a full HSS until Aegis is at higher skill levels (might already be this way), or make its range scale with skill level.
The idea here is to give Pantheon interesting tradeoffs so that he has real weaknesses in exchange for maxing out HSS early and making it so potent.
On a related note, I wonder how giving Pantheon bonus armor / mres during HSS channeling would work to make the move more viable in team fights... it shouldn't make it stronger during laning because people are desperately trying to get away from him, not hitting him back during HSS. It could be like a mini Meditate from Yi.
HSS, at the moment, is Pantheon's worst skill. Easily, imo. And it's still the reason he's banned (he's strictly worse playing off the other two skills now than he was when no one cared about him). Making the tradeoffs worse for HSS than they are now is the wrong solution because you're already better off going for Q > W > E, with cutting W off at rank 3 making some amount of sense, but not a lot. I mean, I've already said everything I want to say in that post. HSS FEELS UNFAIR. That's the problem in a nutshell. People get unhappy when they get instagibbed by 1 ability that has to be that strong to be worthwhile later. It's a move that's plagued by being extremely high risk in a teamfight, and extremely low risk in smaller encounters, thus making the reward impossible to balance correctly.
Pantheon's my favorite champ even during the days when HSS were worthless, i still don quite get it why the hell did they revert a nerf to HSS to back where it was causing QQ back then, instead of trying to tweak HSS differently instead of just giving it a straight up dmg boost... i mean they coulda just find a middle ground for HSS dmg and slap a utility stuff on it like maybe increased survivability while casting HSS which doesn't deal overboard amount of dmg which makes everybody focus their attention on u...
actually, i don think anyone would've missed HSS at all if they removed it from the game, and panth would still be fine with just Q,W and R... well sorta...
Soo what's changed with Panth now after this last patch? I want to learn a bit about him but am afraid to follow this guide since it's a few patch's behind.
the follow up varies depends on how you're playing him. I tend to not rely on E when I do get him, so my new go-to follow up to ghostblade is Black Cleaver, but I don't bother with cleaver vs. high armor teams (counter intuitive, but Cleaver is best vs. low armor targets). Bloodthirster is still sick as hell. SotD is outclassed by Black cleaver as an AS item IMO, as it gives you better stats for panth and serves the exact same purpose (to do true damage vs. lower Armor Targets). Last Whisper is still your answer vs. high armor opponents.
uhhh 0/9/21 ghost/flash straight ArPen + Mana Regen/Level Runing
qwqeqr r > q > e >= w, IMO, though E first builds can work vs. low CC teams.
Just raped face because no one banned panthop AND i had first pick. pretty good build Mogwai! They had likeNO CC so I decided to get a cleaver but ended up not having time to. HSS does a lot of goddamn damage with a BF sword lol
Smash BCleaver so mad on panth, massive props for sharing. Quick Q: Having a little confusion of fitting it into the item sequence, would you rather a BT after GB+LW or a BC?
Also I've been toying with Hexdrinker on Panth, and personally it feels pretty awesome. Tbh its more of "cbf Banshee so expensiff" though lol.
Why BC on Panth? Isn't IE or BT just flat better? The only interaction I see him have with enemy champs is jump, jump, whack, spear, HSS. There's a total of one thing (the whack) in there that BC procs on, so you're getting...5 apen. As for the aspd, there's a total of...woah. Deja vu.
I can see getting efficient flat pen (brutalizer) and AD (BT). I can see hexdrinker (more damage, prevent counter-gibs). But I don't get the logic behind BC.
Let me answer your question with a question... if you're solely interested in the damage of R -> W -> auto -> Q -> E (horrible comb btw, you'll be lucky to land 3 ticks of HSS), why build Ghostblade on Pantheon?
Why would you spear before HSS anyway? Considering they will have to move from HSS that's a good time to cancel HSS and spear them. You still get the spear but get an extra few ticks of HSS. Worth a couple seconds of spear CD.
On January 12 2011 02:57 Mogwai wrote: Let me answer your question with a question... if you're solely interested in the damage of R -> W -> auto -> Q -> E (horrible comb btw, you'll be lucky to land 3 ticks of HSS), why build Ghostblade on Pantheon?
ghostblade active is still pretty damn good on panth, but the changes to BC and LW really kinda spice things up. HSS deals crazy dmg but still its not that often u get all 5 ticks of dmg... so auto attack and spear dmg is still pretty crucial
On January 12 2011 02:57 Mogwai wrote: Let me answer your question with a question... if you're solely interested in the damage of R -> W -> auto -> Q -> E (horrible comb btw, you'll be lucky to land 3 ticks of HSS), why build Ghostblade on Pantheon?
ghostblade active is still pretty damn good on panth, but the changes to BC and LW really kinda spice things up. HSS deals crazy dmg but still its not that often u get all 5 ticks of dmg... so auto attack and spear dmg is still pretty crucial
It was a rhetorical question posed to someone questioning Black Cleaver on Pantheon. I'm the #1 advocate for Cleaver on Pantheon, I think it's the perfect follow up to Ghostblade in 80-90% of games.
They're taking the same approach that they did with ezreal, incrementally nerf all his numbers until there's nothing good left, and then revert them 4 months later Rinse n repeat
So how are people playing Panth nowadays? Trying to learn this manliest of man and not finding much information from this thread. I've still been doing more or less Q>W=E.
Also for item, are people still opening boots+3pot or has dblade completely replaced boot+pots opening by this point?
On January 20 2011 05:26 Mogwai wrote: goddamnit riot, just get rid of HSS and stop nerfing the good parts of Pantheon.
they know that HSS is the cancer that is plaguing pantheon, unfortunately riot is too lazy to do a proper fix/redesign instead of band-aiding all day long
On January 20 2011 16:25 Ecael wrote: So how are people playing Panth nowadays? Trying to learn this manliest of man and not finding much information from this thread. I've still been doing more or less Q>W=E.
Also for item, are people still opening boots+3pot or has dblade completely replaced boot+pots opening by this point?
it's so rare that I get to play him on Summoner's Rift... still the same old same old for me... boots -> d-blade(s) -> bruta -> ghostblade -> Black Cleaver or Last Whisper -> Banshee's or GA.
You'd think after all the Pantheon nerfs, they'd at least take the time to make it so his stun is no longer the only one in the game you can flash out of (or frankly, dodge just by moving).
On January 22 2011 04:19 Zanzabar Haberdasher wrote: If you time it right, their flash will actually cause your stun range to double and you'll end up in the middle of their team.
it's all luck on that really. that only happens if you start your jump on the same frame they flash, which is well outside the realm of human reaction time. the only way to reliably extend your jump is to buffer it within your ult's circle.
the stun duration is so laughably bad now that at lvl 1 it felt like it was more of a blink move than a stun move.... especially if they have merc boots on.
it felt like they are forcing us to level up W over E...
On January 30 2011 00:48 Shizuru~ wrote: the stun duration is so laughably bad now that at lvl 1 it felt like it was more of a blink move than a stun move.... especially if they have merc boots on.
it felt like they are forcing us to level up W over E...
get rid of E and gimme back my proper stun QQ
yea, his stun is so bad now T_T
w/e, I still roll face with Panth but the direction they're taking him sucks IMO.
On February 04 2011 01:25 NeoIllusions wrote: I hate GB/B so much. Feels like such a god damn waste of gold.
you only feel that way because it's a goddamn waste of gold.
basically, GB/B is all-in on winning the game by the 30 minute mark, otherwise you've severely handicapped yourself.
What's your current build/skill order? Just picked up Panth, and he's an interesting champ, but he seems to lack any useless skills for me to ignore, and his tendancy to jump on carries makes him a huge target, making me want both damage (for carry offing) and survivability (for not getting completely wrecked before offing the carry).
On February 04 2011 01:25 NeoIllusions wrote: I hate GB/B so much. Feels like such a god damn waste of gold.
you only feel that way because it's a goddamn waste of gold.
basically, GB/B is all-in on winning the game by the 30 minute mark, otherwise you've severely handicapped yourself.
What's your current build/skill order? Just picked up Panth, and he's an interesting champ, but he seems to lack any useless skills for me to ignore, and his tendancy to jump on carries makes him a huge target, making me want both damage (for carry offing) and survivability (for not getting completely wrecked before offing the carry).
On February 08 2011 13:32 Zanzabar Haberdasher wrote: Do you think there is any merit to this build:
Longsword + pot Bruta Merc Treads GB Infinity Edge Randuins GA
I've tried the cleavers but IE's crit makes GB seem so much better in my eyes.
i think boots are just straight up #1 build right now tbh. sword could work but I think you'll lose to dshield vs. pretty much everyone imo. the only time I've ever opened longsword is on duo lanes.
I really dislike IE on Panth tbh. BC actually makes me like GB more than IE does for 2 reasons: 1. armor reduc synergizes well with the flat penetration (after 3 hits, effectively get 90 Armor Pen (25 runes, 20 GB, 45 BC)), which will dump on most characters you need to dump on. 2. The AS along with the GB active lets you hit critical mass on your AS. and there are 2 other reasons 3. 1000 gold cheaper lets you tank out 100 gold quicker. 4. AS and no money wasted on crit makes it stronger for solo pushing which is the #1 use of Pantheon late game.
I also think nerfed randuin's is no good on Panth. The only time I really advocated for it was when it was just broken. Nowadays GA is your go-to item for Armor and BV is your go-to item for MRes. More than GA is overkill in 99% of the games you'll see though because your passive along with judicious use of your W gives you a ton of extra physical durability.
On February 08 2011 13:32 Zanzabar Haberdasher wrote: Do you think there is any merit to this build:
Longsword + pot Bruta Merc Treads GB Infinity Edge Randuins GA
I've tried the cleavers but IE's crit makes GB seem so much better in my eyes.
i think boots are just straight up #1 build right now tbh. sword could work but I think you'll lose to dshield vs. pretty much everyone imo. the only time I've ever opened longsword is on duo lanes.
I really dislike IE on Panth tbh. BC actually makes me like GB more than IE does for 2 reasons: 1. armor reduc synergizes well with the flat penetration (after 3 hits, effectively get 90 Armor Pen (25 runes, 20 GB, 45 BC)), which will dump on most characters you need to dump on. 2. The AS along with the GB active lets you hit critical mass on your AS. and there are 2 other reasons 3. 1000 gold cheaper lets you tank out 100 gold quicker. 4. AS and no money wasted on crit makes it stronger for solo pushing which is the #1 use of Pantheon late game.
I also think nerfed randuin's is no good on Panth. The only time I really advocated for it was when it was just broken. Nowadays GA is your go-to item for Armor and BV is your go-to item for MRes. More than GA is overkill in 99% of the games you'll see though because your passive along with judicious use of your W gives you a ton of extra physical durability.
Why the hate on crit? Mathematically, maximum DPS comes from an even amount spent on AD, AS, crit, and pen, with some variation based on pen capping at opponents' armor. Just from theorycrafting, I'd assume crit > AS on Panth, because your goal is to hop on someone, murdelate them in about 5 hits of spear/auto/HSS, and then get out again, which seems like it would be improved much more by crit than AS. Not the case?
On February 09 2011 08:31 oberon wrote: Why the hate on crit? Mathematically, maximum DPS comes from an even amount spent on AD, AS, crit, and pen, with some variation based on pen capping at opponents' armor. Just from theorycrafting, I'd assume crit > AS on Panth, because your goal is to hop on someone, murdelate them in about 5 hits of spear/auto/HSS, and then get out again, which seems like it would be improved much more by crit than AS. Not the case?
Probably a combination of HSS giving 100% crit chance if the opponent is below 15% HP and spear/HSS not using crit to deal more damage.
On February 08 2011 13:32 Zanzabar Haberdasher wrote: Do you think there is any merit to this build:
Longsword + pot Bruta Merc Treads GB Infinity Edge Randuins GA
I've tried the cleavers but IE's crit makes GB seem so much better in my eyes.
i think boots are just straight up #1 build right now tbh. sword could work but I think you'll lose to dshield vs. pretty much everyone imo. the only time I've ever opened longsword is on duo lanes.
I really dislike IE on Panth tbh. BC actually makes me like GB more than IE does for 2 reasons: 1. armor reduc synergizes well with the flat penetration (after 3 hits, effectively get 90 Armor Pen (25 runes, 20 GB, 45 BC)), which will dump on most characters you need to dump on. 2. The AS along with the GB active lets you hit critical mass on your AS. and there are 2 other reasons 3. 1000 gold cheaper lets you tank out 100 gold quicker. 4. AS and no money wasted on crit makes it stronger for solo pushing which is the #1 use of Pantheon late game.
I also think nerfed randuin's is no good on Panth. The only time I really advocated for it was when it was just broken. Nowadays GA is your go-to item for Armor and BV is your go-to item for MRes. More than GA is overkill in 99% of the games you'll see though because your passive along with judicious use of your W gives you a ton of extra physical durability.
Why the hate on crit? Mathematically, maximum DPS comes from an even amount spent on AD, AS, crit, and pen, with some variation based on pen capping at opponents' armor. Just from theorycrafting, I'd assume crit > AS on Panth, because your goal is to hop on someone, murdelate them in about 5 hits of spear/auto/HSS, and then get out again, which seems like it would be improved much more by crit than AS. Not the case?
>_<
AS helps for pushing. Crit Chance loses roughly 15% of it's value from HSS's passive portion (actually more in practice because attacks are more frequently used to finish your combo than abilities). AS speeds your attack animation which lets you animation cancel attacks easier (easier sticking and easier to sneak attacks into your combos.
I mean, your DPS theory there assumes autoattacking as primary source of damage, when in reality Panth does more damage from abilities than attacks, making both AS and Crit not great on him... but to the extent that you need one, AS is better and BC synergizes with penetration to rape low armor targets.
On February 09 2011 10:10 Juicyfruit wrote: Flat mana blues and a mixture of flat mp5 and scaling mp5 yellows have been working for me.
Do you really need that much mana/mana regen on Panth? I only run mp5/lvl blues but even without those I don't really run into mana regen problems.
I guess if you're spamming spear on CD in the early game, then you might, but I tend to wait till i can burst people and conserve mana while they're playing safe.
Once I hit the mid-late game, I generally don't have any mana problems.
i desperately need the mana when i'm playing pantheon. lvls 1-6 consist of me browbeating the shit out of whoever im laning against with a million-jillion spears, which means i run out of mana all the time if im not running excessive mp5 runes.
I find that I start pretty aggressive to establish early dominance with Panth in the lane, but then, as soon as they back off a little bit, I start to just play super-safe and just stay content to zone them with 'threat' of harassment, while free-farming. Because of that I'll use a lot of mana very quickly, but will be at full mana again before they're ready to try to pressure me back.
Then again, I'm a noob, so I'm probably playing against noobs who can't deal with Pantheon.. so..
Any thoughts on this? Obviously it tries to be as general as possible, but what are peoples' thoughts on the stuff that's somewhat Panth-specific?
Maxing HSS first was a big WTF for me, though I lol-ed when Dan mentioned that he maxed spear first vs Corki, because Corki could Valk out of stuns--Dan would know all about that.
On February 12 2011 03:26 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: more like "teach a scrub to last hit"
I tried to watch the first episode. Then the caitlyn he was midding against tried to start a fight under dan's tower, lost the exchange, and dan went back. Dan then raped the caitlyn for the rest of the game. That wasnt the sad part. The sad part was that the caitlyn kept pushing the lane, doing all the work of zoning for dan. A blind retarded monkey could have done better.
Any thoughts on this? Obviously it tries to be as general as possible, but what are peoples' thoughts on the stuff that's somewhat Panth-specific?
Maxing HSS first was a big WTF for me, though I lol-ed when Dan mentioned that he maxed spear first vs Corki, because Corki could Valk out of stuns--Dan would know all about that.
i think the biggest thing to take away from that video is shield usage, he stresses a couple of times that the only times he really engages is when his shield is up, which is incredibly important, and something that the vast majority of panths i play with/against simply dont pay attention to
On February 12 2011 03:26 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: more like "teach a scrub to last hit"
I tried to watch the first episode. Then the caitlyn he was midding against tried to start a fight under dan's tower, lost the exchange, and dan went back. Dan then raped the caitlyn for the rest of the game. That wasnt the sad part. The sad part was that the caitlyn kept pushing the lane, doing all the work of zoning for dan. A blind retarded monkey could have done better.
I mean, the Caitlyn was self-admittedly 700 Elo. I don't think most of what was actually demonstrated in the video was the take-away from that, more than what Dan himself was discussing.
On February 12 2011 03:39 gtrsrs wrote: panth is no-longer banworthy imo in fact i think he's a weak pick with urgot and renekton seeing a rise in power and popularity
I thought Panth was ban-worthy not based on power-level, but based on the fact that he abuses the hell out of idiocy from people who lane poorly against him and who overextend into jump ganks.
Any thoughts on this? Obviously it tries to be as general as possible, but what are peoples' thoughts on the stuff that's somewhat Panth-specific?
Maxing HSS first was a big WTF for me, though I lol-ed when Dan mentioned that he maxed spear first vs Corki, because Corki could Valk out of stuns--Dan would know all about that.
maxing HSS is fine, I just find it gimmicky. It's basically all-in on 1 shotting squishies.
I prefer 21 util and 9 defensive, but you can do w/e I guess.
Shield bit is true but I thought it was sorta obvious >_<.
On February 12 2011 03:39 gtrsrs wrote: panth is no-longer banworthy imo in fact i think he's a weak pick with urgot and renekton seeing a rise in power and popularity
I thought Panth was ban-worthy not based on power-level, but based on the fact that he abuses the hell out of idiocy from people who lane poorly against him and who overextend into jump ganks.
I like this description of Panth. The mistake punisher.
On February 12 2011 08:04 rwrzr wrote: I like this description of Panth. The mistake punisher.
I mean, it applies to a lot of the common bans. Rammus/Shaco are strong gankers that abuse early overextension. Rammus also takes advantage of tanks that don't eat the powerball for their carries. Shen rectifies an ally's mistake AND lets you abuse overextension with his ulti.
* Heartseeker Strike now deals damage slower - it takes 0.5 seconds longer to deal full damage * Grand Skyfall now has a small area near the center that deals full damage (previously it was impossible to deal full damage to any target)
looks like ur second attempt has fared better than the last one already, but there's still so much idiots in them general forum-er in ur posts though, at least a majority agree that E has to go now...
lets hope that riot stop taking the easy way out by band-aiding E over and over again and does a proper redesign on E.
my idea of a simple change is to keep E passive as it is, and instead of E being a channeled skill, make it into a buff skill, like u get ur next 3-4 autoattack to deal ur AD + small scaling% in a cone aoe, that way they get to keep their HSS animation, by doing a shorter animation per auto-attack, makes HSS not retarded to cast, let his AS speed scales much better, and become an easier to scale fighter late game? instead of making HSS a single giant nuke...
well... whatever the heck they do with it, i just hope that they revert the nerf they did to his Q and W.
Not sure if this has been asked before, but is warmogs/atma viable on Panth? Sadly it's the only build I've been successful with on Panth.Whenever I build damage first, I'm just so squishy and I get bursted down ezpz.
On February 23 2011 06:55 JokerSan wrote: Not sure if this has been asked before, but is warmogs/atma viable on Panth? Sadly it's the only build I've been successful with on Panth.Whenever I build damage first, I'm just so squishy and I get bursted down ezpz.
It's pretty fucking terrible tbh. Pantheon takes some real finesse to play well if you ask me because he's a squishy Melee Carry, but that's his design and going for some pseudo-tanky bullshit just begs the question "why wouldn't you just play someone who's better at being tanky?" You can pretty much accomplish everything Warmog + Atma's Pantheon can do only better with a standard Shen build and Xin/Irelia/Olaf/WW/Trundle/Udyr all boast good enough base stats to get away with building tanky and still being a melee carry while Pantheon needs to use his powerful ability scaling to succeed. I still see the odd successful Ghostblade -> Frozen Mallet -> Atma's Pantheon, but I still think it misses the point of Pantheon.
if you're not farming a brutalizer quickly enough to rape face, start doing so.
if you're getting into positions that get you raped, stop it, start solo pushing and entering fights late with an ult on their Carry + Support line so that you can fucking murder them.
What is the correct skill order for panth these days? I tend to max Q first, and alternate between W and E after that, getting only one point in R, then maxing it last.
don't forget the 2 d-blades before ghostblade. without them, you'll have a lot of trouble staying in your lane. whether you get black cleaver or a defensive item depends on the particular game you're in. Sometimes you need LW over black cleaver. I dunno, you have to be flexible with your build, but most of the time I do boots -> 2 d-blades -> brutalizer -> ghostblade -> black cleaver + banshee's veil -> sell d-blades for vamp scepter + a piece of GA -> BT + GA.
Bad matchups off the top of my head are: Sion, Kennen, Urgot, Malphite, Cho, Gragas, Irelia, Xin, Mordekaiser... basically anyone really tanky or Kennen, lol. I also think Caitlyn and Ezreal are tough too, but they have to be really good to play the matchup well.
Late game, yea, sorta like shen in that you solo push and then ult, but your role is chaser/assassin, not peeler/tank, so you need to aim your ult for their DPS or Burst Champions and kill the shit out of them and then keep yourself highly mobile to avoid getting killed.
You know I really hate this hero now. he used to be my favorite back when he was supposedly underpowered, but they've pretty much nerfed his fun aspects into the ground so that they could buff HSS (why would having more HSS in the game be a good thing? I don't know.)
It's pretty sad how they've messed this champ up tbh... total trainwreck design.
On February 24 2011 06:31 UniversalSnip wrote: You know I really hate this hero now. he used to be my favorite back when he was supposedly underpowered, but they've pretty much nerfed his fun aspects into the ground so that they could buff HSS (why would having more HSS in the game be a good thing? I don't know.)
It's pretty sad how they've messed this champ up tbh... total trainwreck design.
I more or less agree.
Though I wouldn't say I hate him... I just shockingly miss the HSSless Pantheon, lol.
Pantheon suffers from globalitis and a kit we've never gotten right at all. I'll fess up to Panth being a mess, but more from our direction never being solidified.
It's nice to see they at least realize he's pretty messed up right now.
Pantheon suffers from globalitis and a kit we've never gotten right at all. I'll fess up to Panth being a mess, but more from our direction never being solidified.
It's nice to see they at least realize he's pretty messed up right now.
After what they have gone through from the last "fix" on pantheon, i wouldn't have any hope for them to properly fix Panth, i just hope they don bloody screw him up more...
On April 01 2011 03:35 -Kato- wrote: So I stopped playing Panth because of the continous nerfs (worse than pre-buff, great). But today I tried him again and he's so fun!
So easy question: with a GB and Black Cleaver, lvl 18, whats better after the stun, autoattacks or E?
If people are dumb enough to sit in your E, then it is always your best choice. Beyond that I, defer to better players.
On April 01 2011 03:35 -Kato- wrote: So I stopped playing Panth because of the continous nerfs (worse than pre-buff, great). But today I tried him again and he's so fun!
So easy question: with a GB and Black Cleaver, lvl 18, whats better after the stun, autoattacks or E?
it's situational and based on their armor and your other items and stuff, but if you have free reign, you'll probably do more damage with E.
Pantheon seems to be underplayed these days so here's my build that I've had moderate success with. I'll explain more in depth later since I'm in class and people will be annoyed with my incessant typing... feel free to criticize http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/pantheon-nuke-71272 yes i know mobafire isn't too proudly looked upon
Well I dislike CDR runes in general. And I don't like the masteries nor do I like the 2 HP quints (but they may help a lil early on I guess). You shouldn't really go 21 offense, I am kinda loving jiji's 15/0/15.
And I don't max HSS either. I go R>Q>W>E, as the stun duration helps alot, and maxing Q first increases harass output insanely. Boots of Swiftness are bad, esp since you will be focused on every team fight so Merc threads ftw.
Revive > TP.
Oh and Pantheon is pretty much dead atm. For more clarity on how dead he is. Look at Smash's man tears.
Yeah you're probably right. The only reason I think this build has been absolute rape for me is because I haven't played any rankeds. The swiftness I use make panth really fast later game esp. if I max out occult. anyways, I think i'll try out jiji's build thanks for the tip. I'll try your skill order too. and then compare it to mine and see how it goes later this week .
Hm.... Yeah I forget that I originally got nimbleness when I used dodge seals >_<. should change that and the warmogs is just an item so that i won't be an instant death during my combo
I played some panth games, and to be honest, early HoG / hexdrinker with 2 dblades was enough that I didnt get instagibbed during early teamfights. I know that brutalizer might be too late but it worked.
only even somewhat viable Pantheon build atm is Maknoob's shit where you go Ghostblade -> Mallet + Atma's + Banshee's with a 0/21/9 setup and revive + ghost summoners. Shitty char though, only viable on a super gimmick where you just hope the other team has to focus you.
On April 09 2011 00:44 Mogwai wrote: only even somewhat viable Pantheon build atm is Maknoob's shit where you go Ghostblade -> Mallet + Atma's + Banshee's with a 0/21/9 setup and revive + ghost summoners. Shitty char though, only viable on a super gimmick where you just hope the other team has to focus you.
Wouldnt FoN be better on him though? I often dont see why FoN isnt better especially when you have other hp items banshees looses a bit of its "phew saved me from that spell" value.
Still good but FoN gives more magic resist and speed. I dont know when the regen catchs up to banshee's amount of hp and damage banshees woulda absorbed.
I donnu, I suck at mathcraft so dont blame me, I am just sharing thoughts
The extra mana is helpful for your lasting power, the extra HP adds damage via your atma's, the bubble is still strong, and the movespeed isn't terribly useful because he is already at 330 base MS and you have ghostblade + frozen mallet slow + ghost + the revive speed boost, so extra MS is a bit superfluous.
Apparently the only thing that is stopping pantheon from getting un-fucked over is the fact that morello doesnt have the tech in place to make the change he wants to to pants' ulti. It seems as though once he nerfs the ulti he will be able to go back and rebuff his laning and damage to non shit levels.
no one has ever been able to show me the post suggesting that they're working on Pantheon at all, so I don't know, but if I had to guess from Morello's design philosophy, it would be removing the ult and replacing it with something non-global.
On April 12 2011 05:02 Chrispy wrote: What does he plan to do to his ult?
Iirc it was something like Pantheon flexes his biceps, sending out 5 teenage Spartans into the air which land on each enemy champion, stunning and HSS'ing (2-1 ad ratio) them.
Sort of like Karthus ulti but not rly. I could be wrong though.
Rock Rock On: hahaha, bumping cause this is awesome. If you get +100, you should draw Jarvan and Pantheon fighting cause they're my 2 favorite characters.
On April 30 2011 04:38 BlackPaladin wrote: So tryhard. Actually goes ghostblade + brutalizer on pantheon vs bots. He even pushed towers. WHO DOES THAT??
How can I carry you, even vs bots, if I don't tryhard??
Psh, I died because my laptop shut down when I was near their tower. You died because you're a bad pantheon. Also, don't get why you built IE. I'd say BT is better on panth.
Hello all, I think it's probably safe to say that we are all on a similar page with Pantheon. He's weak, with no roll in a competitive team because TF fills his role better.
Pantheon's early game has been repeatedly nerfed. He is a mere shadow of his former self. While I understand the reasoning behind this, it still makes me sad to see one of the strongest early game champions get hit so hard with the nerfstick, especially when I hear things from Riot that really don't make sense to me.
Things I've heard:
* The issue is his global ult + CC. If this truly was the main issue then why does TF still have a global ult and a stun? * He's just not fun to lane against. Has anyone laned against Urgot? He presses E and then does 2/3 of your life for free. If you're a melee champ against him you've lost (maybe with the exception of Morde). * He does too much damage. Yes, because if he doesn't do a significant amount of damage he is useless. He really has almost zero utility later on in the game in teamfights.
The changes that have taken place have moved him from a viable pick to a bad version of Twisted Fate. Here is the thing about Pantheon, either he kills you, or he dies, there really isn't much middle ground with him. He has no escape mechanism, and after all the changes he doesn't even have the damage to 1v1 people anymore. Late in the game he falls apart because he has 2 moves that have no utility, only damage. Heartseeker is at no point worth using in the game because it's too unreliable and does very little damage and isn't worth putting points into because of this. Maxing his Spear Shot is still the only way to really effectively play him, and he's just worse than he was pre-season 1.
So here are the issues:
* Global Ult * Stun * A lot of Damage
With his skill set now he is mediocre up to 30 min and relatively weak after.
Here are some proposed changes
* Q: Leave this as it is for now. * W: Convert the stun to a silence and convert this move to physical damage with a small damage ratio. This means that when Panth jumps on people they can still cast most summoners (except flash) and simply run away. For instance, you jump on someone, and they simply ghost away, or exhaust you and run, etc... The silence duration might want to be changed to 1 second at lvl 1 to make this stronger early on in the game. The change to physical damage means that it actually does significant damage at early levels with armor pen runes. So now with the change to heartseeker (weaker early game because he has no stun) his Aegis at least will make up for the damage lost. * E: Allow E to apply on-hit effects for each hit. This is the biggest change, and in my mind the most versatile. This change allows Panth to itemize differently depending on who he is facing. Tiamat for big AoE teamfight heartseeker damage, Frozen Mallet/Phage for keeping people in your heartseeker after you silence them, BlackCleaver for big AoE armor reduction, wit's end for big AoE mana burn, Madred's for big %Magic Damage against a team. Imagine Jungle Pantheon with this change, he would be a very strong jungler. Grab Lizard and gank with the slow + silence combo, or big lifesteal with bloodthirster. I really feel that this change would make Pantheon way more itemize-able for the end game and gives him a pretty unique skill. Again, it is still a 2.5 second channeling move. Numbers may need to be changed but overall this would be a very fun change in my eyes. * R: Leave how it is for now, I know you guys want globals to be nerfed so of course I assume this will be changed soon anyway.
With these changes his W-E combo only becomes potent as he gets items, but it should hopefully become quite strong later on in the game as Panth gets big on-hit effect items.
Note: This might require some testing to see just how effective certain items are on Panth with these changes. I could see some items just being too strong on him (bloodthirster lifesteal possibly being too strong, madred's making his heartseeker do too much damage, etc.).
I don't really like the changes. Specifically changing the W into a silence. If W is changed not to stun I feel like it would become way too easy to run from pantheon. Its already hard enough to keep them in the AOE of heart seeker with the stun. Unless W is buffed to do massive damage, its still going to suck unless it is prioritized over spear shot (which then makes spear shot weaker early on). Perhaps making the heart seeker AOE movable while channeling could help.
My feeling is that any move where you have to stand in an enemy's armpit and channel it is going to be either very inconsistent or so difficult to balance it's probably not worth it.
Another issue... I was whining about the fact they'd probably buff e and nerf q back in... november? Not because I somehow knew it would be a balance issue but because a disintegrate you have to channel is, uh, a less fun disintegrate and disintegrate is not a hugely fun spell in the first place. HSS is just boring.
I don't understand why you compare him to urgot and tf, is this supposed to be a defense of his mechanics? Urgot and tf have legitimate issues, they are terribly unfun to play against.
My feeling is that
1) The global has to go. Fuck true globals, I've come around to riot's viewpoint on this, they just suck. 2) his E should be replaced with a soft CC spell. For example, what if E swept his shield around him knocking enemies back and dealing a % of their health if they're stunned? Depending on the strength of the new spell W might need a bit of buffing so he can sufficiently stick to a target. 2) Q scaling should be increased to compensate for the loss of E.
Call me weird, but HSS has always been THE thing I've liked about Pantheon. Something about the sound and animation I guess. Even when Pantheon was "imba" I never felt it was a problem. Spear shot is just boring and not really fun to use or play against. At least with Urgot you have to aim/dodge somewhat.
Roam pantheon is actually pretty legit, but he still has the "drop off after 30 minutes" problem that he and many other champions share which makes tanky dps such good picks in this meta.
More like "drop off after 10 minutes if you can't grab a kill". Q and E do shit damage at early levels and without AD items. You really need gold (obv from kills) if Panth aims to stay relevant.
I feel that making his E incredibly good late game, but a channeling spell, will result in Riot trying to save the baddies who cannot consistently counter channeled spells.
His ult is way too obvious. Seriously, either shorten the time it takes to jump, or make the red circle less noticeable or something.
A quote from a player I got matched with in 3v3 queue: "Is it obvious enough that I am ulting into the fight?" "I think faxing you I am ulting is less obvious than that circle"
Hello all, I think it's probably safe to say that we are all on a similar page with Pantheon. He's weak, with no roll in a competitive team because TF fills his role better.
Pantheon's early game has been repeatedly nerfed. He is a mere shadow of his former self. While I understand the reasoning behind this, it still makes me sad to see one of the strongest early game champions get hit so hard with the nerfstick, especially when I hear things from Riot that really don't make sense to me.
Things I've heard:
* The issue is his global ult + CC. If this truly was the main issue then why does TF still have a global ult and a stun? * He's just not fun to lane against. Has anyone laned against Urgot? He presses E and then does 2/3 of your life for free. If you're a melee champ against him you've lost (maybe with the exception of Morde). * He does too much damage. Yes, because if he doesn't do a significant amount of damage he is useless. He really has almost zero utility later on in the game in teamfights.
The changes that have taken place have moved him from a viable pick to a bad version of Twisted Fate. Here is the thing about Pantheon, either he kills you, or he dies, there really isn't much middle ground with him. He has no escape mechanism, and after all the changes he doesn't even have the damage to 1v1 people anymore. Late in the game he falls apart because he has 2 moves that have no utility, only damage. Heartseeker is at no point worth using in the game because it's too unreliable and does very little damage and isn't worth putting points into because of this. Maxing his Spear Shot is still the only way to really effectively play him, and he's just worse than he was pre-season 1.
So here are the issues:
* Global Ult * Stun * A lot of Damage
With his skill set now he is mediocre up to 30 min and relatively weak after.
Here are some proposed changes
* Q: Leave this as it is for now. * W: Convert the stun to a silence and convert this move to physical damage with a small damage ratio. This means that when Panth jumps on people they can still cast most summoners (except flash) and simply run away. For instance, you jump on someone, and they simply ghost away, or exhaust you and run, etc... The silence duration might want to be changed to 1 second at lvl 1 to make this stronger early on in the game. The change to physical damage means that it actually does significant damage at early levels with armor pen runes. So now with the change to heartseeker (weaker early game because he has no stun) his Aegis at least will make up for the damage lost. * E: Allow E to apply on-hit effects for each hit. This is the biggest change, and in my mind the most versatile. This change allows Panth to itemize differently depending on who he is facing. Tiamat for big AoE teamfight heartseeker damage, Frozen Mallet/Phage for keeping people in your heartseeker after you silence them, BlackCleaver for big AoE armor reduction, wit's end for big AoE mana burn, Madred's for big %Magic Damage against a team. Imagine Jungle Pantheon with this change, he would be a very strong jungler. Grab Lizard and gank with the slow + silence combo, or big lifesteal with bloodthirster. I really feel that this change would make Pantheon way more itemize-able for the end game and gives him a pretty unique skill. Again, it is still a 2.5 second channeling move. Numbers may need to be changed but overall this would be a very fun change in my eyes. * R: Leave how it is for now, I know you guys want globals to be nerfed so of course I assume this will be changed soon anyway.
With these changes his W-E combo only becomes potent as he gets items, but it should hopefully become quite strong later on in the game as Panth gets big on-hit effect items.
Note: This might require some testing to see just how effective certain items are on Panth with these changes. I could see some items just being too strong on him (bloodthirster lifesteal possibly being too strong, madred's making his heartseeker do too much damage, etc.).
I love you Loci, but they're not well thought out changes. 100% guaranteed that HSS with on-hit procs is broken, no way around it. The way a cone AoE that applies on hit effects synergizes with certain items makes it so that the numbers would have to be balanced around Pantheon building Black Cleaver + Tiamat + bloodthirster every game. And balancing it around those items makes it suck without them, makes it suck early, yadda yadda yadda, I'm 100% convinced it can't work. Maybe this is a slippery slope argument from me, but every time I imagine a rework involving this change I know it's just introducing a brand new balancing nightmare that puts Pantheon right back on track he's been on his whole life (OP -> balanced (HSS does nothing) -> OP -> UP).
And just for the sake of thoroughness, everyone has their Pantheon timelines wrong. Pre-Season 1, Pantheon was considered imbalanced and HSS hit like a truck. This goes all the way back to his release (though it took people awhile to realize it). After Season 1 was released Pantheon was balanced (HSS was nerfed into the ground with the patch that came with Season 1's release). Enough forum QQ about Pantheon being either UP or uninspired led Riot to rebuff HSS, which immediately made Pantheon OP again which led to a giant string of nerfs that took Pantheon to his worst spot ever (now, he's clearly UP now, see 3rd post on this page: http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=518381&page=14).
...and to take things further, Morello is currently in charge on the Pantheon remake and his step 1 is to make the ult non-global. He has allowed for no back-and-forth on this issue and I cannot use any reasoning to make him change Pantheon in any way until they make the ult non-global. So while your effort is admirable Loci, you'd be spending your time in a more productive manner watching paint dry than trying to convince Morello that his ult is not the problem. /bitteroldmanrant
Note: The following sentences are all based on rumour and speculation.
I think Morello is planning on getting rid of all the global teleports (I think for preparation of Magma chamber, which is a lot larger than SR) and turn them into something like Nocturne's ult. I think then Pantheon will get his cc or damage back.
Oh looks like globals being nerfed is common knowledge. Does anybody know if other globals like GP and Karthus will be effected as well?
I think it was meant to be just global teleports, like Panth, TF, and Shen. Can't find the post right now, but that's what I recall reading. The current GP ult would fit into the picture too, though, and if it is part of the plan, I'd expect Kart ult to take a hit also.
Hello all, I think it's probably safe to say that we are all on a similar page with Pantheon. He's weak, with no roll in a competitive team because TF fills his role better.
Pantheon's early game has been repeatedly nerfed. He is a mere shadow of his former self. While I understand the reasoning behind this, it still makes me sad to see one of the strongest early game champions get hit so hard with the nerfstick, especially when I hear things from Riot that really don't make sense to me.
Things I've heard:
* The issue is his global ult + CC. If this truly was the main issue then why does TF still have a global ult and a stun? * He's just not fun to lane against. Has anyone laned against Urgot? He presses E and then does 2/3 of your life for free. If you're a melee champ against him you've lost (maybe with the exception of Morde). * He does too much damage. Yes, because if he doesn't do a significant amount of damage he is useless. He really has almost zero utility later on in the game in teamfights.
The changes that have taken place have moved him from a viable pick to a bad version of Twisted Fate. Here is the thing about Pantheon, either he kills you, or he dies, there really isn't much middle ground with him. He has no escape mechanism, and after all the changes he doesn't even have the damage to 1v1 people anymore. Late in the game he falls apart because he has 2 moves that have no utility, only damage. Heartseeker is at no point worth using in the game because it's too unreliable and does very little damage and isn't worth putting points into because of this. Maxing his Spear Shot is still the only way to really effectively play him, and he's just worse than he was pre-season 1.
So here are the issues:
* Global Ult * Stun * A lot of Damage
With his skill set now he is mediocre up to 30 min and relatively weak after.
Here are some proposed changes
* Q: Leave this as it is for now. * W: Convert the stun to a silence and convert this move to physical damage with a small damage ratio. This means that when Panth jumps on people they can still cast most summoners (except flash) and simply run away. For instance, you jump on someone, and they simply ghost away, or exhaust you and run, etc... The silence duration might want to be changed to 1 second at lvl 1 to make this stronger early on in the game. The change to physical damage means that it actually does significant damage at early levels with armor pen runes. So now with the change to heartseeker (weaker early game because he has no stun) his Aegis at least will make up for the damage lost. * E: Allow E to apply on-hit effects for each hit. This is the biggest change, and in my mind the most versatile. This change allows Panth to itemize differently depending on who he is facing. Tiamat for big AoE teamfight heartseeker damage, Frozen Mallet/Phage for keeping people in your heartseeker after you silence them, BlackCleaver for big AoE armor reduction, wit's end for big AoE mana burn, Madred's for big %Magic Damage against a team. Imagine Jungle Pantheon with this change, he would be a very strong jungler. Grab Lizard and gank with the slow + silence combo, or big lifesteal with bloodthirster. I really feel that this change would make Pantheon way more itemize-able for the end game and gives him a pretty unique skill. Again, it is still a 2.5 second channeling move. Numbers may need to be changed but overall this would be a very fun change in my eyes. * R: Leave how it is for now, I know you guys want globals to be nerfed so of course I assume this will be changed soon anyway.
With these changes his W-E combo only becomes potent as he gets items, but it should hopefully become quite strong later on in the game as Panth gets big on-hit effect items.
Note: This might require some testing to see just how effective certain items are on Panth with these changes. I could see some items just being too strong on him (bloodthirster lifesteal possibly being too strong, madred's making his heartseeker do too much damage, etc.).
I love you Loci, but they're not well thought out changes. 100% guaranteed that HSS with on-hit procs is broken, no way around it. The way a cone AoE that applies on hit effects synergizes with certain items makes it so that the numbers would have to be balanced around Pantheon building Black Cleaver + Tiamat + bloodthirster every game. And balancing it around those items makes it suck without them, makes it suck early, yadda yadda yadda, I'm 100% convinced it can't work. Maybe this is a slippery slope argument from me, but every time I imagine a rework involving this change I know it's just introducing a brand new balancing nightmare that puts Pantheon right back on track he's been on his whole life (OP -> balanced (HSS does nothing) -> OP -> UP).
And just for the sake of thoroughness, everyone has their Pantheon timelines wrong. Pre-Season 1, Pantheon was considered imbalanced and HSS hit like a truck. This goes all the way back to his release (though it took people awhile to realize it). After Season 1 was released Pantheon was balanced (HSS was nerfed into the ground with the patch that came with Season 1's release). Enough forum QQ about Pantheon being either UP or uninspired led Riot to rebuff HSS, which immediately made Pantheon OP again which led to a giant string of nerfs that took Pantheon to his worst spot ever (now, he's clearly UP now, see 3rd post on this page: http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=518381&page=14).
...and to take things further, Morello is currently in charge on the Pantheon remake and his step 1 is to make the ult non-global. He has allowed for no back-and-forth on this issue and I cannot use any reasoning to make him change Pantheon in any way until they make the ult non-global. So while your effort is admirable Loci, you'd be spending your time in a more productive manner watching paint dry than trying to convince Morello that his ult is not the problem. /bitteroldmanrant
I have to side with Mogwai on this- a cone attack proc'ing Tiamat does not seem like the right way to go about anything (I'm less bothered by BC -armor procs because Corki does pretty much just that with his E, and can move while doing it). Dark Wind and Brand's ult hit harder when there are 2 targets right next to each other than when there's only a single target, but that's pretty much the entire gimmick of the abilities and the damage is just spread out more evenly if there's more than 2 targets; a Tiamat-proc'ing cone ability would deal more damage to each target for every additional target in the area, and I don't think instagibbing the enemy team because you happened to catch them all together is good for the champion or the game (6k gold spent on tiamats would make each target take 100% damage, plus 150% additional damage for every other target in the AoE, or 700% damage each for a full team)- and if the ability did NOT deal ludicrous damage under those circumstances, then it would be comically UP when dealing just 100% damage.
I don't think I've lost with bot lane Pantheon on my smurf this patch (people won't let me play him on my main D=). 21/9/0, ArPen Marks, AD Quints + Seals, MRes Glyphs, Flash + Ignite, boots + 3 pots -> double dblade -> brutalizer -> bloodthirster -> GA -> Ghostblade + Triforce. Keep it on the DL, people still suck vs. globals.
I'm not saying I never lost bot lane with Pantheon, I'm saying that I haven't lost a game while going bot lane pantheon. besides, I blame that lost lane squarely on you for not being brave enough to tank the tower for me to dive =P.
On July 05 2011 23:44 Mogwai wrote: I'm not saying I never lost bot lane with Pantheon, I'm saying that I haven't lost a game while going bot lane pantheon. besides, I blame that lost lane squarely on you for not being brave enough to tank the tower for me to dive =P.
Just a thought on the globals. I don't think Karthus will be affected, because you don't target with the ult. It just affects all 5 champions regardless of where they are, which is unlike panth, tf and GP, who have ults that vary in effectiveness depending on the decision of where to place the ult. Also, Karthus' ult can't even be followed up very well. It's just pure dmg, it doesn't put him any closer or further and provides 0 CC.
Karth and Soraka's ults are fine, to an extent so is GP's. It's mostly the mobility afforded by Panth/TF/Shen that requires rework, because so far they've only fixed it by nerfing Panth and Shen to oblivion.
I'm not sure what they're doing tbh, all I've heard is that Shen's ult is going to remain completely global, while Pantheon and TF's will not. No idea about GP, Soraka and Karthus. I fucking hate Karthus's ult though, a guaranteed 700+ damage nuke to your whole team late game is really really fucking strong and there is extremely limited counterplay. I dunno, I just generally think Karthus is an extremely poorly designed Champion and that he encourages really unfun play when he's strong.
I can see the late-game damage being an issue (hence requiring scaling reduc etc.) but I don't particularly see an issue with his design. He's an AP carry, and a damned good one at that, but requires some finesse.
On July 06 2011 00:18 Southlight wrote: Karth and Soraka's ults are fine, to an extent so is GP's. It's mostly the mobility afforded by Panth/TF/Shen that requires rework, because so far they've only fixed it by nerfing Panth and Shen to oblivion.
I believe they have said its only teleports they are worried about.
And besides, the only real global ult at that point would be GP's, which is fine since its tiny and only really good for the slow when you gank out of the jungle anyway.
he mostly requires finesse early game. late game his optimal play is "suicide into middle of enemy team, then spam shit," which personally I really really hate. he also kills Baron way too fast. but this is the Pantheon thread, so let's talk about how much of a fucking joke Pantheon's W is. It's seriously so bad that it completely boggles my mind. I've stopped leveling it out of pure spite and also because tickling massive creepwaves to death with my tickleseeker strike seems important to playing the split pushing role. I still can't really wrap my head around what they were thinking when they took that massive dump on his stun =\.
On July 06 2011 00:26 Mogwai wrote: he mostly requires finesse early game. late game his optimal play is "suicide into middle of enemy team, then spam shit," which personally I really really hate. he also kills Baron way too fast. but this is the Pantheon thread, so let's talk about how much of a fucking joke Pantheon's W is. It's seriously so bad that it completely boggles my mind. I've stopped leveling it out of pure spite and also because tickling massive creepwaves to death with my tickleseeker strike seems important to playing the split pushing role. I still can't really wrap my head around what they were thinking when they took that massive dump on his stun =\.
Re: optimal play on Karth, it's mostly the same with other AP carries tbh. You spam shit and hope the AoE/damage is high enough.
Re: w IMO they wanted to stop the stunlock for HSS, so that it's avoidable instead of being a full combo.
I just get sad every time I think about the fact that they had a decent iteration of pantheon who could boss lanes around with q if you knew what you were doing, even if e was useless. Then they decided to buff e. Then nerf it. And nerf w and q. So we end up with a slightly better but still useless e, useless q, and useless w.
leaving W at level 1 and leveling E, I STILL hit 5 ticks when I really want to tickle someone to death (usually). E's cone is pretty wide and goes 600 units forward, just having the blink to get in range is enough to practically guarantee 4 hits if you really want them, even with the fucking 2.5 second channel. *shrugs*, I dunno, if they don't want the combo, they need to redesign the character, there isn't really a convenient way to make those abilities not interact with each other as a combo. (that is without making them both so bad that you wouldn't even want to use them anyway)
He was never really "decent" from a balance point once people figured out how to play him. He was pretty broken from the onset.
Here's a hero that has a global teleport, tower diving capability (via passive) as well as tower harassment capability (via passive) which is pretty significant, and has one of the biggest 123 combos in the game.
So they tried to nerf him by crippling his 123 burst, but fiddling with the damage numbers wasn't enough as he still had the sustain (via passive etc) to just repeat the combo, leading to people dying in 2-3 combos.
So then they finally tried to axe his combo altogether by nerfing the big nuke, but realized it terrible (tickleseeker), so they shifted stuff around by juggling with Q and E, but ended up still having this global teleport with 2-second point-and-click stun and significant kerchunk via Q+AA.
So they axed the stun so that he's a global teleport that can't really stun. But gave him back some of his burst.
On July 06 2011 00:33 Mogwai wrote: leaving W at level 1 and leveling E, I STILL hit 5 ticks when I really want to tickle someone to death (usually). E's cone is pretty wide and goes 600 units forward, just having the blink to get in range is enough to practically guarantee 4 hits if you really want them, even with the fucking 2.5 second channel. *shrugs*, I dunno, if they don't want the combo, they need to redesign the character, there isn't really a convenient way to make those abilities not interact with each other as a combo. (that is without making them both so bad that you wouldn't even want to use them anyway)
o.O If I just walk to the side after the stun, it hits 2 times at most, normally 1.
On July 06 2011 00:33 Mogwai wrote: leaving W at level 1 and leveling E, I STILL hit 5 ticks when I really want to tickle someone to death (usually). E's cone is pretty wide and goes 600 units forward, just having the blink to get in range is enough to practically guarantee 4 hits if you really want them, even with the fucking 2.5 second channel. *shrugs*, I dunno, if they don't want the combo, they need to redesign the character, there isn't really a convenient way to make those abilities not interact with each other as a combo. (that is without making them both so bad that you wouldn't even want to use them anyway)
o.O If I just walk to the side after the stun, it hits 2 times at most, normally 1.
It has like a 1sec startup.
screw walking to the side. Just click to behind him. It'll put you right out of the cone :-p.
ok, so the thing is that if they decide to go with the whole stupid step-to-the-side route is that you zone them out of where they want to actually run to for the channel duration, which almost always nets you an extra auto attack + Q at least, which more than makes up for it. like, if I get 2 ticks + instead of running away, you ran towards me and to the side, I then get to cancel my channel and smack you upside the head + chase, which is even awesomer to the maximum IMHO because 2 ticks is like an auto + it pulled you into me, basically netting me an extra 2 seconds worth of you not running away. At least that's how I see it.
I play him for 2 days now, i really like him (well lvl 11 Pubs.. in the last 3 games i went something like ~15/7/15... i lost the first 3 after i bought him badly but since then i either had more luck with allies or improved like tenfold ). Followed that featured guide on solomid.net, tons of fun to have with that guy .
I did not find a real use for his "E" yet aside from cleaning Creepwaves fast in Mid/Lategame... Only hitting 1 enemy Hero does not seem to be worth it when your autoattacks can Crit/Various other stuff and seem to altogether do more dmg (except not hitting multiple targets)... Since i mainly neglect it when fighting Summoners i seem to do way better...
Btw: Fight -> Die/Revive -> Jump -> Kill'em all is probably the most fun thing ever.
On July 06 2011 16:49 Mogwai wrote: srsly, I'm bringing Pantheon back. He still sucks ass, but globals and being able to 1v1 ranged carries somehow makes up for all his faults atm IMO.
What, there are champions that can't 1v1 ranged carries? Or do you mean in lane, where ranged carries don't exist in solo lane anymore, or lategame? <-- Confused.
panth is one of those champions well suited for being a OFF tank dps. building him raw damage is the best with some defensive items like. Warmogs+atmas and FON. get a phantom dancer, zerk boots, and a blood thirster.
This is how i play panth, he is a really good, support OFF tank and if need be can be build to tank because of his passive ability to block 1 attack.
If i were to pick a champion, panth is a good one for a lot of reason, in a team battle, he is a good starter/finisher. dosent have to be even near it, his ult is well worth to have once he lands. he usually gets focused, leaving the AD carries. to clean up..
this is just my opinion but at higher ELO's, tanky dps panth goes a lot farther then streight up DPS, because if you want that go with Xin, or any other melee carry. All im saying is a good build order for a top level panth is
Dorans Shield Berserker boots Warmogs Atmas FoN(If they have a lot of AP)(Thornmail, if they have AD) Blood Thirster (sell dorans shield)Phantom dancer.
You will see that your survivability early game is amazing and also your late game becomes scary.
Runes id pick for this type of build for Panth Mark of Strength (0.95 Attack Damage) x9 Glyph of Focus (0.65 Cool down Reduction) x9 Seal of Evasion (0.75% chance to dodge) x9 Quintessence of Fortitude (+26 health) x3
The Runes make him a good damage dealer and also able to hold off a lot of damage.
Thank you all for looking at this, hope this helps some players struggling with panth, i know i did for the longest time, until i developed this build and to me, it does the body good. lol
Honestly all the pantheon nerfs felt like Riot accidentally releasing an OP iteration of Panth with his 100-0 in 2 seconds burst and then them just scrambling to rectify it by making Panth weaker than Tibbers.
Whenever I play him, I still manage to do pretty well early game in a duo lane 'cause his harass is still decent. It's just after early laning, no matter what items I get I'm useless.
Panth has great AD scaling coupled with atrocious base damage. So you either have to build him full AD with paper HP (useless) or tanky style with little to no damage (useless). 160% AD on Q is really kewl, but without AD items Q does like 200 damage? Also, being almost fully physical damage, he needs APen too much to build tanky.
I feel like this deserves a bump. I never played Pantheon when he was good, but I'm wondering if the optimal build has changed at all - eg. if you need Ignite to properly rule a lane.
Run him in the jungle. Smite+Flash, cloth+5. I run attackspeed red,blue,quint and armor yellows. 16/3/11. He still sucks but hey, at least no one has to see it.
I've been experimenting with Wriggles, doesn't seem too bad considering how aggressive you need to play (free wards) and the autocrits when you last hit = double lifesteal.
Play pantheon/taric, go ignite/flash. Max E. Every time taric gets a stun off (a long duration one) you can just W and full E them, that kills anything.
Max E, lane with taric, die to any range dps + support combination in the game because you can't level E fast enough to actually burst anything down through healing/shields and then lose the game because you can't farm against 2 ranged champions and you have a worthless ultimate.
Max E, lane with taric, die to any range dps + support combination in the game because you can't level E fast enough to actually burst anything down through healing/shields and then lose the game because you can't farm against 2 ranged champions and you have a worthless ultimate.
Q at lvl 1 and W at lvl 2 and eh o_O that's weird, vs us they couldn't even come near the creeps
Shikyo, do not argue with loci and smash about this. Pants could be the most op champ in the game and they would still complain he wasnt strong enough. Such is the power of love.
On August 03 2011 09:10 Two_DoWn wrote: Shikyo, do not argue with loci and smash about this. Pants could be the most op champ in the game and they would still complain he wasnt strong enough. Such is the power of love.
He was, and they did <3
I still don't know whether to take ghost/flash or something else though
take flash ignite, but really please for fucks sake, just don't play a champion who was barely passable on the back of a global ult that they have since removed without buffs.
also, u guys suck, lol. even when Panth was "OP" the last time around, when picked in tourney play, he was still stomped. Prior to that, he was never good except back before I was good enough to appreciate it.
On August 03 2011 08:12 LoCicero wrote: What Shikyo meant to say was:
Max E, lane with taric, die to any range dps + support combination in the game because you can't level E fast enough to actually burst anything down through healing/shields and then lose the game because you can't farm against 2 ranged champions and you have a worthless ultimate.
Q at lvl 1 and W at lvl 2 and eh o_O that's weird, vs us they couldn't even come near the creeps
It's because you're 1400 elo where you can stomp almost any lane with pant. Why is it that dyrus says pant is a beast tho(pre global nerf), everyone says pant is terrible then Dyrus comes along and says he's a beast.
On August 03 2011 08:12 LoCicero wrote: What Shikyo meant to say was:
Max E, lane with taric, die to any range dps + support combination in the game because you can't level E fast enough to actually burst anything down through healing/shields and then lose the game because you can't farm against 2 ranged champions and you have a worthless ultimate.
Q at lvl 1 and W at lvl 2 and eh o_O that's weird, vs us they couldn't even come near the creeps
It's because you're 1400 elo where you can stomp almost any lane with pant. Why is it that dyrus says pant is a beast tho(pre global nerf), everyone says pant is terrible then Dyrus comes along and says he's a beast.
because he still had a global and globals are really strong. Also Dyrus is a troll. It's basically just those 2.
yeah dont take everything dyrus says for granted, he even makes troll guides on solomid.net, so things he just says and doesnt even take time to write down arenot always what he really thinks.
On August 04 2011 00:41 LaNague wrote: yeah dont take everything dyrus says for granted, he even makes troll guides on solomid.net, so things he just says and doesnt even take time to write down arenot always what he really thinks.
He did rape when he played pantheon ranked tho~~ yeye I know earlygame is strong. On another note, I don't understand why they didn't change his ult channeltime/mana when they nerfed the range.
I was doing the same at the same time. but he was stupid bad, it's just that people were still bad at countering him and he still had a global and globals are really strong in solo queue.
So things are looking up for pantheon this patch. Some pretty interesting buffs. How are you building him now? I'm guessing it depends on how good his heartseeker is right now.
On August 09 2011 20:19 ManBearPig wrote: So things are looking up for pantheon this patch. Some pretty interesting buffs. How are you building him now? I'm guessing it depends on how good his heartseeker is right now.
Pantheon is all about the spear spam. You spear spam people down for like no cost and since he has the crit passive you can kill people at an HP wich they don't expect.
I really don't see how i won't win every single lane with the massive damage upgrade on spear when i was allready stomping all over people with the old spear.
21/whatever
Shoes, 3 pots
Brutalizer
You have now won the game. Easier to kill casters then minions with that settup.
Spear shot's power is pretty much just slightly buffed via the crits below 15% HP, but the base damages are basically unaffected now that it scales off of bonus rather than total AD. It will seem a little stronger earlier via the crits and a little weaker later except when critting.
Builds should probably look something like boots -> double dblade -> brutalizer -> bloodthirster -> profit. I'll most likely be speccing 21/9/0 at bot lane and 0/21/9 or 0/9/21 on solos with AD quints, ArPen Marks and then a hodgepodge of defensive crap on seals and glyphs. Q Scales better in terms of DPS than E does and it's mana cost doesn't go up, so still max Q first. QWEQQR -> Q > E > R > W. Without the global range, I'm actually not convinced you should get level 2 of R until after Q and E are maxed.
On August 09 2011 23:21 Mogwai wrote: Spear shot's power is pretty much just slightly buffed via the crits below 15% HP, but the base damages are basically unaffected now that it scales off of bonus rather than total AD. It will seem a little stronger earlier via the crits and a little weaker later except when critting.
Builds should probably look something like boots -> double dblade -> brutalizer -> bloodthirster -> profit. I'll most likely be speccing 21/9/0 at bot lane and 0/21/9 or 0/9/21 on solos with AD quints, ArPen Marks and then a hodgepodge of defensive crap on seals and glyphs. Q Scales better in terms of DPS than E does and it's mana cost doesn't go up, so still max Q first. QWEQQR -> Q > E > R > W. Without the global range, I'm actually not convinced you should get level 2 of R until after Q and E are maxed.
Early game buff, lategame nerf.
Wich is perfect for Pantheon. His job is similar to Urgot in that you have to shit all over the enemy and make his lane phase so bad that he is gonna be a drag all game long.
Full damage means dorans blade and full AD red/quint runes with +3 AD from offense mastery for a total of +28. The lists are in order of rank of skill, 1 through 5, factoring base damage at levels 1, 3, 5, 7, and 9.
Old SS, No damage 16+50.7 = 66.7 28+(56.1x1.15) = 92.5 40+(61.5x1.3) = 119.95 52+(66.9x1.454) = 149.01 64+(72.3x1.6) = 179.68
One of the major problems that I find now with pantheon is extreme mana issues due to the removal of his ult's global cast range. Most of the time I'll find myself ulting after harassing someone in lane or away from fountain- since the ult costs 150 mana at level1, and pantheon's mana pool at lvl6ish is ~400(?iirc) once you mandrop you'll be hard pressed to do a q-w-e-q combo. Most of the time I'll just q-w before oom. Never really had this problem before ult nerf as the majority of the time I'd be ulting from fountain lol. Anyway, kinda annoying, not sure how to remedy (mp5 runes don't really help here). Considering manamune? but that's such a shit item for Pantheon since he needs early damage real bad.
On August 12 2011 11:15 Truez wrote: One of the major problems that I find now with pantheon is extreme mana issues due to the removal of his ult's global cast range. Most of the time I'll find myself ulting after harassing someone in lane or away from fountain- since the ult costs 150 mana at level1, and pantheon's mana pool at lvl6ish is ~400(?iirc) once you mandrop you'll be hard pressed to do a q-w-e-q combo. Most of the time I'll just q-w before oom. Never really had this problem before ult nerf as the majority of the time I'd be ulting from fountain lol. Anyway, kinda annoying, not sure how to remedy (mp5 runes don't really help here). Considering manamune? but that's such a shit item for Pantheon since he needs early damage real bad.
I find myself rarely jumping these days. Either you have no range or you don't have the mana to still pull off a combo after it. They should really remove the mana cost imo, Pantheon can't deal with high mana costs.
As for the rest, where are all the pantheons? He is the best mid in the whole wide world. I always used to think so but with this buff there really is no doubt that he completly stomps every standard mid champion.
Especially Annie is a ton of fun. Strong mid? Lol no, pew pew.
On August 12 2011 13:37 arnath wrote: I feel like a lot of casters mid beat Panth like Ori and Brand. Heroes that can harass him from out of range of his stun basically.
Both Brand and Ori can at best go head to head with him. You start with shoes + pots. With pantheons 330 base move speed this allready makes it a snooze to dodge most skillshots or run someone down from range.
Combine that with irregular movement due to sudden W stuns and you can make both scream out in frustration.
Dangerous on both sides. Pantheon will get destroyed by brand's combo in a trade if he doesn't juke out the Q before trying to HSS, and straight up trading spear for brand's spells isn't favorable either.
On August 12 2011 10:24 Koenig99 wrote: Thoughts on Shurelia's Reverie on Panth?
Thoughts on bloodthirster on Taric?
On August 12 2011 11:15 Truez wrote: One of the major problems that I find now with pantheon is extreme mana issues due to the removal of his ult's global cast range. Most of the time I'll find myself ulting after harassing someone in lane or away from fountain- since the ult costs 150 mana at level1, and pantheon's mana pool at lvl6ish is ~400(?iirc) once you mandrop you'll be hard pressed to do a q-w-e-q combo. Most of the time I'll just q-w before oom. Never really had this problem before ult nerf as the majority of the time I'd be ulting from fountain lol. Anyway, kinda annoying, not sure how to remedy (mp5 runes don't really help here). Considering manamune? but that's such a shit item for Pantheon since he needs early damage real bad.
I kinda just wanna look up an old locodoco post where he was talking about how all the really good players were ditching their mana runes because really it just boils down to getting better at mana management, but instead I'll just say get better at mana management. You shouldn't have mana issues with Pantheon.
On August 12 2011 11:15 Truez wrote: One of the major problems that I find now with pantheon is extreme mana issues due to the removal of his ult's global cast range. Most of the time I'll find myself ulting after harassing someone in lane or away from fountain- since the ult costs 150 mana at level1, and pantheon's mana pool at lvl6ish is ~400(?iirc) once you mandrop you'll be hard pressed to do a q-w-e-q combo. Most of the time I'll just q-w before oom. Never really had this problem before ult nerf as the majority of the time I'd be ulting from fountain lol. Anyway, kinda annoying, not sure how to remedy (mp5 runes don't really help here). Considering manamune? but that's such a shit item for Pantheon since he needs early damage real bad.
I find myself rarely jumping these days. Either you have no range or you don't have the mana to still pull off a combo after it. They should really remove the mana cost imo, Pantheon can't deal with high mana costs.
As for the rest, where are all the pantheons? He is the best mid in the whole wide world. I always used to think so but with this buff there really is no doubt that he completly stomps every standard mid champion.
Especially Annie is a ton of fun. Strong mid? Lol no, pew pew.
shouldn't be having issues using your ult tbh. Just learn better mana management. Late game is easy, secure objectives close to your team and do so without straining your mana pool. Earlier, it can be trickier, but I mean, come on, most characters have to deal with mana management, why should Panth be any different?
Pantheon is OK at mid, but a lot of guys will also just dump on him.
On August 12 2011 15:20 HazMat wrote: There are 2 champs in this meta that take mid. Orianna and Brand. Panth loses to both, wutdo.
they both skillshot based,dodge their shit yo
run armorpen,flat mana regen,flat mr,flat ad quints 21/0/9 boots x 3 pots max Q just farm until they use thier skillshots,after they use start exchanging hits harass heavily at level 3 and 5 dont let them push ur lane
shouldn't be having issues using your ult tbh. Just learn better mana management. Late game is easy, secure objectives close to your team and do so without straining your mana pool. Earlier, it can be trickier, but I mean, come on, most characters have to deal with mana management, why should Panth be any different?
Pantheon is OK at mid, but a lot of guys will also just dump on him.
Mana management? Ooh please keep your theorycrafting to yourself.
If you have mana to spare for jumping all over the map and pulling off a combo at every moment then you are playing him completly wrong.
Panth wins lanes by outpoking you and shoving you out of lane until you're too low to fight back safely. For example that caster you're against has spells with 10 second cooldowns, and while they're on cd (or they're not but you know you can out-maneuver them) you're trying to get your spear harass in at every moment possible with your superior movespeed. I don't think Panth's base regen is enough to execute this strat to its complete efficiency in the early levels.
reading back to myself it sounds pretty obvious but I just thought it needed to be made clear
shouldn't be having issues using your ult tbh. Just learn better mana management. Late game is easy, secure objectives close to your team and do so without straining your mana pool. Earlier, it can be trickier, but I mean, come on, most characters have to deal with mana management, why should Panth be any different?
Pantheon is OK at mid, but a lot of guys will also just dump on him.
Mana management? Ooh please keep your theorycrafting to yourself.
If you have mana to spare for jumping all over the map and pulling off a combo at every moment then you are playing him completly wrong.
a) Who is this guy? b) Smash called out for theorycrafting the things he said when it comes to panth.
Trollol.
Locos stream showed perfectly how (in theory) mana on Panth works.
tl;dr: Be aggressive with Qs at lvl 3 and 5, conserve mana at lvl 2 and 4. Usually when I'm playing random nups with panth around lvl 4-5 it's time for all-out combos and first blood.
How does Panth compare to Garen in Taric bot lanes? I'm really wondering if panth is the stronger option now or not.
b) Smash called out for theorycrafting the things he said when it comes to panth.
I meant that he was talking all about theory without understanding how Pantheon actually plays. If you play Pantheon as you should, super harass, you are never going to be floating a lot of mana. It's not about mana managment, it's about how the proper Pantheon play won't let you hold on to a ton of mana or just spend it on jump + combo like it's nothing.
How does Panth compare to Garen in Taric bot lanes? I'm really wondering if panth is the stronger option now or not.
I don't see Panth really being that great of a laner on bot when he has to be dealing damage against anyone who has a healer back him up.
When the name of the game is harass you are kind of fucked when a healer is fixing all the damage you dish out. Garen still has bigger numbers if he can pull them off, wich Taric let's him do.
Whatever benefit Panth derives from Taric stuns probably doesn't weigh up against the fact that you will be facing a healer.
Lol, see so many people building mana on pantheon, it's so stupid. His mana costs aren't that high if you just don't spam all day. People build manamune and never need the mana because they only need it for lane any way. Build a philo if you need mana. The only high mana cost you have is your ult and 150 mana is liek the same as Annie's W at level 9 and nobody builds mana on her.
On August 12 2011 10:24 Koenig99 wrote: Thoughts on Shurelia's Reverie on Panth?
I always build it. Despite what Mogwai says, I always have mana issues with Panth and I don't get how he can NOT have mana issues unless he only lasthits, in which case you should play someone who's good lategame.
On August 12 2011 22:07 Slayer91 wrote: Lol, see so many people building mana on pantheon, it's so stupid. His mana costs aren't that high if you just don't spam all day. People build manamune and never need the mana because they only need it for lane any way. Build a philo if you need mana. The only high mana cost you have is your ult and 150 mana is liek the same as Annie's W at level 9 and nobody builds mana on her.
Spears empty your mana rapidly, stun HSS combo takes over 100 and if you have no regen, you're not going to get it back. If you want to outdamage ~5 health pots, you need to use your skills, otherwise you get harrassed off the lane.
Now this of course doesn't hold true if you lane bot with a mana manip taric or something similarly OP
Flat mana regen blue AND yellows will let you keep up the spear spam without having to use the meditation mastery. 21-offense so that each individual spear has a lot more impact. Once you ride that early advantage you need to constantly be raising your damage to maintain the ability to threaten them.
I have never tried philo stone and I can't ascertain whether it would be effective on panth. Fact of the matter is that pantheon generally has to start boots so when it comes time to buy philo stone you're basically ditching 2 doran's blade for it. Worth it?
On August 12 2011 23:02 Juicyfruit wrote: Flat mana regen blue AND yellows will let you keep up the spear spam without having to use the meditation mastery. 21-offense so that each individual spear has a lot more impact. Once you ride that early advantage you need to constantly be raising your damage to maintain the ability to threaten them.
I have never tried philo stone and I can't ascertain whether it would be effective on panth. Fact of the matter is that pantheon generally has to start boots so when it comes time to buy philo stone you're basically ditching 2 doran's blade for it. Worth it?
I tend to go:
Boots + 3 pots Brutalizer Merc
Bloodthirster/Last whisper (generally in that order, but i might swap it up at times) 2 defensive items.
Banshee Veil/Sunfire
I think philo stone would be a mistake. Even now Pantheon has to ride his early game strength into lategame succes. Philo just seems to be too longterm for the way Pantheon has to go.
You never have mana problems if you're just doing spear harass with mana regen runes. You don't use your full combo every single time it's up. His full combo is more of a burst potential you use for a kill. It's like you don't ewq on xin every single time that combo is available. It's stupid and a waste of mana and you're going to go oom pretty fast if you do. You use his full combo when it rewards you for it. Pushing your opponent out of lane (almost killing them) or killing them outright.
Team fights are an entirely different story. Every champion will go oom eventually in a teamfight. That's a moot point. You're panth. You do your combo, spear and auto as much as possible, and that's that. Now that you can't jump from the fountain it's kind of sucky that you need to use mana for that you used to not need, but it's not THAT detrimental. Global champs used to basically have a free teleport. Now they need to come back to lane with at least some mana gone. *shrugs*
And most supports nowadays build shurelya's eventually. You can also do cheesy things like build it on amumu for better initiations. If you're going to build philo stone on panth (never tried that) it would be better to use it so you can go ionian boots and grab an Eleisa's miracle imo. But I don't really agree with philo on panth because you want to abuse his earlygame strength, and delaying dblades and other damage is generally bad. If you're building for lategame on panth you're doing it wrong you need to abuse his earlygame to no end. That's why people run stuff like AD runes and flat mana regen, because those are all better for earlygame.
Panth in the bottom lane against a healer is perfectly fine. Fact is, even if they can heal, you can still zone the shit out of them and after a bit they are so under leveled / under farmed that it doesn't matter. You will win a straight up encounter and if their healer has to spend all their time/mana healing whoever they are supporting than that means they aren't doing much else. You have the ability to ignore 2-3 tower hits if your shit is properly timed so they can't really hug their tower if they don't have a stun (and if they do, let them hug it all day and zone them, then win five minutes later).
All I'm saying is that I run flat armor or flat AD yellows and flat mres blues with a 21/9/0 spec and I'm not having mana issues. If you need a crutch for lousy mana management, run flat mana regen on your yellows and rush a philostone or something retarded like that, but I'm just telling you you shouldn't need mana regen to play Pantheon well and you're essentially just making yourself worse at your job by delaying your AD. The whole fucking point of the buff is that Pantheon's AD scaling kicks in way the fuck earlier, and if you're not abusing that, you're the one playing Pantheon wrong, not I.
Pantheon Soraka lane is so fun. I can just go balls out pure AD spec with Dblade opening. Have my Q deal over 100 damage after mitigation at lvl 1 and ezpz rape the other two single handedly. No need to wait 'til lvls 3 and 5 cause raka keeps me topped up all the time huehuehue ofc, my elo is in the shitter right now so it might just be a shitty other team but still. so much fun :D
One thing I've found about Panth though is that he seems very snowbally. If my early game gets messed up or set back, say I die to a gank once, I cant seem to really get back in the game. It feels like with Pantheon I have to dominate my lane, keep it that way, and use that advantage to just snowball my team to victory. Whereas for some other champs even if you fuck up, as long as it's not astronomical, you usually can get back in the game.
I think it's like... since they cannot trade with you at all, you get ahead on cs really early and then you just periodically go back to base to replenish mana and buy an extra D'blade or longsword or w/e and then return to lane even stronger. In that respect you don't need to horde tons of mana regen to accomplish what you need to do.
On August 12 2011 22:09 Shikyo wrote: I always build it. Despite what Mogwai says, I always have mana issues with Panth and I don't get how he can NOT have mana issues unless he only lasthits, in which case you should play someone who's good lategame.
lol? shikyo telling Smash that he is playing the wrong charcter...cause he hasnt mained panth for over a yea..
tricks to mana management on mantheon. a) dont use hss, b) dont use stun unless you're 100% sure u can either do loooots of followup dmg or get a kill. spear harass is plenty of garen-teed dmg, esp if u start boots first
trade skills. come out ahead because spearshotlolololol.
win lane because panth can threaten to burst and kill at lvl 2.
how the hell do you run oom when your main nuke is 45 mana, you can win every auto attack trade, and panth at low hp vs anyone else at low hp is auto-win for panth.
On August 13 2011 00:17 Mogwai wrote: All I'm saying is that I run flat armor or flat AD yellows and flat mres blues with a 21/9/0 spec and I'm not having mana issues. If you need a crutch for lousy mana management, run flat mana regen on your yellows and rush a philostone or something retarded like that, but I'm just telling you you shouldn't need mana regen to play Pantheon well and you're essentially just making yourself worse at your job by delaying your AD. The whole fucking point of the buff is that Pantheon's AD scaling kicks in way the fuck earlier, and if you're not abusing that, you're the one playing Pantheon wrong, not I.
What's the deal with SoS over XP mastery? Don't I give my opponent windows where he can actually DO stuff when I don't run XP mastery?
Just wondering how do you win lanes without running out of mana Smash? Do you auto them? Do you walk up whack em with your shield a couple of times without taking damage?
With pantheon's ~300ish mana pool by levels 2-5 that equates to like 6-7 spears. Unless you somehow deal twice the damage per spear as the average pantheon player I do not see how you can run 21-9-0 AND not use mana regen seals and/or blues without oom. This is assuming that you don't stun+hss combo as that will 100% garentee you to be half mana or near dry. Not to mention the fact most people when they realise they're facing Pantheon will open cloth+5pots.
I was running practice lanes vs ranged characters earlier and I found I came out much better with dblade start than boots just because I had enough damage to be a threat without running out of mana
On August 13 2011 17:36 UniversalSnip wrote: I was running practice lanes vs ranged characters earlier and I found I came out much better with dblade start than boots just because I had enough damage to be a threat without running out of mana
And you have enough movespeed so that no AP mid can run from you.
Wait.
Panth without boot start just gets his Q kited all day. Don't do it.
On August 13 2011 17:36 UniversalSnip wrote: I was running practice lanes vs ranged characters earlier and I found I came out much better with dblade start than boots just because I had enough damage to be a threat without running out of mana
And you have enough movespeed so that no AP mid can run from you.
Wait.
Panth without boot start just gets his Q kited all day. Don't do it.
Whilst panth with boots spams his Q on everyone's face and has 3 pots wich let's him outlast anyone with dorans.
Boots + pots is such a great start on nearly any champ. It's an opening that is both offensive and defensive.
And no champion gains more from this start then Pantheon and his spears. His natural high move speed (330, highest base in the game) means you are faster then other people with boots and massively outrun everyone that does a different start.
On August 13 2011 16:50 Truez wrote: Just wondering how do you win lanes without running out of mana Smash? Do you auto them? Do you walk up whack em with your shield a couple of times without taking damage?
With pantheon's ~300ish mana pool by levels 2-5 that equates to like 6-7 spears. Unless you somehow deal twice the damage per spear as the average pantheon player I do not see how you can run 21-9-0 AND not use mana regen seals and/or blues without oom. This is assuming that you don't stun+hss combo as that will 100% garentee you to be half mana or near dry. Not to mention the fact most people when they realise they're facing Pantheon will open cloth+5pots.
In all honesty I am really really intrigued =/.
You can't without mana regen, and Mogwai never gets mana regen so his Pantheon is incredibly easy to deafeat - open cloth 5pots, lasthit and harrass freely, if he harrasses you you just use 1-2 health pots and then deny him and win lane.
On August 13 2011 16:50 Truez wrote: Just wondering how do you win lanes without running out of mana Smash? Do you auto them? Do you walk up whack em with your shield a couple of times without taking damage?
With pantheon's ~300ish mana pool by levels 2-5 that equates to like 6-7 spears. Unless you somehow deal twice the damage per spear as the average pantheon player I do not see how you can run 21-9-0 AND not use mana regen seals and/or blues without oom. This is assuming that you don't stun+hss combo as that will 100% garentee you to be half mana or near dry. Not to mention the fact most people when they realise they're facing Pantheon will open cloth+5pots.
In all honesty I am really really intrigued =/.
You can't without mana regen, and Mogwai never gets mana regen so his Pantheon is incredibly easy to deafeat - open cloth 5pots, lasthit and harrass freely, if he harrasses you you just use 1-2 health pots and then deny him and win lane.
Grudgematch please.
(I actually failed and ran scaling blue MP5s one time and it wasn't that much of an issue either. =P)
funny, I just played dblade vs. a cloth + 5 wukong in top lane and stomped his shit in.
there are plenty of chars who will beat panth with cloth + 5, but it's not dependent on mana regen runes. that extra spear/minute isn't going to push you over the top vs. an irelia maxing W and coming to lane with 5 pots and 50 armor .
On August 13 2011 00:17 Mogwai wrote: All I'm saying is that I run flat armor or flat AD yellows and flat mres blues with a 21/9/0 spec and I'm not having mana issues. If you need a crutch for lousy mana management, run flat mana regen on your yellows and rush a philostone or something retarded like that, but I'm just telling you you shouldn't need mana regen to play Pantheon well and you're essentially just making yourself worse at your job by delaying your AD. The whole fucking point of the buff is that Pantheon's AD scaling kicks in way the fuck earlier, and if you're not abusing that, you're the one playing Pantheon wrong, not I.
What's the deal with SoS over XP mastery? Don't I give my opponent windows where he can actually DO stuff when I don't run XP mastery?
SoS listed in the OP was probably pre-nerf. I would assume that the 9 defense in Smash uses now is for Dodge+Nimbleness but I could be wrong.
On August 14 2011 02:05 clickrush wrote: pretty sure dblade garen wtfpwns new panth
mmm, maybe. I'm not sure actually because I'm pretty sure Pantheon can just walk into the brush and get brush control @ level 1 and then get a decent little lead on the first push and then just ward the brush for the rest of the laning phase.
On August 13 2011 00:17 Mogwai wrote: All I'm saying is that I run flat armor or flat AD yellows and flat mres blues with a 21/9/0 spec and I'm not having mana issues. If you need a crutch for lousy mana management, run flat mana regen on your yellows and rush a philostone or something retarded like that, but I'm just telling you you shouldn't need mana regen to play Pantheon well and you're essentially just making yourself worse at your job by delaying your AD. The whole fucking point of the buff is that Pantheon's AD scaling kicks in way the fuck earlier, and if you're not abusing that, you're the one playing Pantheon wrong, not I.
What's the deal with SoS over XP mastery? Don't I give my opponent windows where he can actually DO stuff when I don't run XP mastery?
SoS listed in the OP was probably pre-nerf. I would assume that the 9 defense in Smash uses now is for Dodge+Nimbleness but I could be wrong.
Yea, you're wrong, I use it for SoS. XP mastery is nice and all, but I honestly don't feel like it's essential in lane.
On August 14 2011 05:42 GARO wrote: Soraka + dblade opening panth = real #1 fun for 30 armor ashe/sona
Taric + Pantheon is really really strong vs. basically any non-Alistar bot lane. Ali fucks stuff up, but they can basically insta-gib any other support at level 2. Utah and I towerdove at level 2 last night and full comboed a soraka from 100% HP while she was still stunned.
On August 14 2011 08:04 Tooplark wrote: So Mogwai can you give a list of the hardest lanes for Pants and the easiest?
mmm, it's been too long since I've played him and the meta's shifted too much. I'll let you know as I run into more matchups and understand the dynamics, but Pantheon's level 1 laning is one of the strongest in the game (LeeSin's is still stronger probably, but oh well) so I've been finding that I can just win most matchups by stepping on people's throats at level 1 and never letting up.
hey smash/loci i want to play panth and i'm combing this guide but the OP is outdated and the conversation is getting in the way of what i want, which is just straight info. also chat is down so i can't hit up either of you
can you tell me EXACTLY what masteries you run? beyond 21-9-0? i don't ever run 21-9-0 nor am i a panth player so i don't know which are optimal on him
EXACTLY which runes as well? what's the benefit of AD reds and arpen quints v AD quints and arpen reds on panth? why flat mana regen yellows as opposed to scaling (or in smash's case, what in yellow instead of mana regen)?
On August 15 2011 23:40 Mogwai wrote: Yea, you're wrong, I use it for SoS. XP mastery is nice and all, but I honestly don't feel like it's essential in lane.
Ah, OK. I figured that dodge works well with Panth's passive, and Nimbleness procs would be useful for him, but I can see the HP5 from SoS being more useful for a champ without natural sustain like Panth, even when you're not gaining a significant amount of mana from outside sources.
On August 16 2011 08:06 arnath wrote: What lane do you normally take?
bot with taric or I boss the shit out of crappy tops like jax, garen, morde or shitty mids like brand and annie.. Note: I am severely underleveled and all of those matchups might actually be hard, but I win vs. all my opposition on pure swag atm.
Taric + Panth > Ali + Panth IMO. Dat armor redux is fuxing crazy + reliable long ranged stuns are dirty.
On August 16 2011 15:09 sRapers_ValkS wrote: wtf is with you and TwoDown. know each other irl? same person? twodown your righteous nerdrage account????
why he have SmashGizbro and you play on his account I'M CONFUSED I DON'T LIKE IT YOU MAKE MY HEAD HURT.
ps. no offense with "righteous nerdrage" twodown (OR SHOULD I SAY SMASHGIZMO) <3<3<3
we're helping each other out. He's leveling Gizbro for me, I'm eloing TwoDown. I literally go insane trying to play on sub-30 accounts anymore.
So I've been playing LoL for 4 days now and I'm in fucking love with it, did some analysis on characters and decided to purchase Pantheon. Just won the game with this:
I love this guy and wanted to commend the contributers to this thread as it helped me understand the character a lot and what I should be doing! Here's to you fine fellows
triforce is not that great at Pantheon (although it's not bad on anyone either) I don't recommend finishing ghostblade after brutalizer, if you are in a such a lead as this just rush for a BFsword item like Infinity Edge or Bloodthirster and after that a Guardian Angel or something. That would mean more damage output while getting more tank stats than in your build
On August 17 2011 05:05 freelander wrote: triforce is not that great at Pantheon (although it's not bad on anyone either) I don't recommend finishing ghostblade after brutalizer, if you are in a such a lead as this just rush for a BFsword item like Infinity Edge or Bloodthirster and after that a Guardian Angel or something. That would mean more damage output while getting more tank stats than in your build
Instead of GA first get something like Frozen Mallet for HP, and a lil slow (or Warmogs for massive hp, whatever you want), and then you can just get Atmas and increase your damage output even more.
Banshee or FoN are also really good against dem AP bastards yo.
so, about that atmogs. y/n? doing dorans x whatever > brut > giants belt > atma > warmogs/mallet
especially against teams with more disables. or if you want to initiate, cause panth is real good at punishing ppl who are out of position, and it lets you be more mantheon and just do it.
Yeah atma's is solid if you need armor. Panth's base HP is low, though. Always go for the merc tread brutalizer core, after that something like sunfire followed by atma's works great against AD heavy comps.
i mean, here's the thing... Pantheon has no steroid. he does have 5.0 AD scaling on like, 6 second CD, lol. Shit that gives you anything but AD atm is like completely wasting his potential. This is what my standard panth game looks like atm:
If you need to initiate, use your CC... HSS. Hardest CC in the game is death, so just insta kill teams with double BT.
You raped Jax, then switched with kennen because brand was raping him, arrived on mid lane and then Q -> W -> E -> ingite and and instantly killed brand, then raped their whole team for the rest of the game.
I dunno, i guess you just have to win your lane ezpz then snowball into GA.
as an addendum, thoughts on CDR boots instead of merc treads?
EDIT:: 1 arpen = 1% more dmg. arpen is almost always better, problem is most champs only have ~14 armor at lvl 1, so any more is wasted, and the armor from levels is offset by brutalizer
On August 17 2011 16:58 broz0rs wrote: Wouldn't AD marks be better on Pantheon, especially with that insane scaling?
I dunno, I like doing true damage vs. squishies. I haven't run the math, so I'm just sorta feeling it out. One of these days I'll work to optimize the spec.
On August 17 2011 17:01 Kaneh wrote: I dunno, i guess you just have to win your lane ezpz then snowball into GA.
as an addendum, thoughts on CDR boots instead of merc treads?
EDIT:: 1 arpen = 1% more dmg. arpen is almost always better, problem is most champs only have ~14 armor at lvl 1, so any more is wasted, and the armor from levels is offset by brutalizer
even if you're not snowballing, I just find speccing much defense on current Pantheon to be a waste, and for 1 stop shopping on defense on a melee char, well, GA's da best.
CDR Boots and Zerkers are both viable over Mercs in certain situations.
On August 17 2011 15:35 Mogwai wrote: AD Quints, ArPen Marks, Armor Seals, MRes glyphs.
You raped Jax, then switched with kennen because brand was raping him, arrived on mid lane and then Q -> W -> E -> ingite and and instantly killed brand, then raped their whole team for the rest of the game.
Damn I'm awesome. I forgot if i made them ragequit, but Im just going to assume I did.
Pantheons scaling off just Q and E is the same as Lee sin's scaling on his full combo including ultimate and his base line damage is probably higher if you ult into a fight although he doesn't have the crazy mobility of course.
Lee sin does have a steriod though, so it makes more sense to build tanky on him.
Devils been building IE on him? What do you think. He does die a hell of a lot so it seems a good alternative to blood thirster. Does pantheon make much use of the lifesteal on BT?
You can choose between: +15.3 AD (a), +6.75 AD and 15 arpen (b), or 25 arpen (c)
Against 20 armor:
(a) gives you 72 damage level 1 spears, 105 damage level 2 spears, and a 111 damage level 1 HSS (I'm assuming Q > E here and that you want to win the lane really early so I didn't run past those).
(b) gives you 71 damage level 1 spears, 109 damage level 2 spears, and a 97 damage level 1 HSS
(c) loses to both of the above in all cases
---
Against 25 armor (most possible benefit from full arpen)
(a) gives you 69 damage level 1 spears, 101 damage level 2 spears, and a 106 damage level 1 HSS
(b) gives you 68 damage level 1 spears, 104 damage level 2 spears, and a 93 damage level 1 HSS
(c) gives you 65 damage level 1 spears, 105 damage level 2 spears, and a 78 damage level 1 HSS
I'll let someone who actually plays Pantheon interpret these numbers. Clearly HSS's ridiculous AD scaling vs champs always gets more from AD runes, but spears hit a bit harder with arpen.
These numbers are obviously for a no-AD-item start.
---
Doran's blade vs 20 armor start:
(a) gives you 84/117/141 damage (spear level 1/spear level 2/HSS level 1) (b) gives you 84/122/132 damage (this is a slightly larger 84 than above, not sure if LoL tracks that) (c) gives you 79/119/114 damage
Doran's blade vs 25 armor:
(a) gives you 80/112/135 damage (b) gives you 80/117/126 damage (c) gives you 79/119/114 damage
well, assuming you can keep them each, I dunno, let's say, half full, you're looking at 40% lifesteal on like 300+ AD. That means when you go to finish someone off and crit them for 450 damage, you heal up 180 HP. Also, between fights being able to just auto attack a creep wave and go from 5 HP to 100% without burdening your support's mana feels really good to me. I don't think IE is bad on him exactly, but you get very little mileage out of the Crit chance these days and you honestly get even less out of the Crit damage than you did before (since Crit damage bonsuses don't apply to Q crits which we use to finish people off a lot nowadays).
also, I made this awesome discovery that rushing bloodthirster basically makes any DPS a crazy sustainer in lane. who knew? so sometimes if I can back and get BF Sword instead of brutalizer, I'll just do that and rush BT and skip brutalizer until later or just skip it entirely in favor of a later LW.
On August 16 2011 15:09 sRapers_ValkS wrote: wtf is with you and TwoDown. know each other irl? same person? twodown your righteous nerdrage account????
why he have SmashGizbro and you play on his account I'M CONFUSED I DON'T LIKE IT YOU MAKE MY HEAD HURT.
ps. no offense with "righteous nerdrage" twodown (OR SHOULD I SAY SMASHGIZMO) <3<3<3
we're helping each other out. He's leveling Gizbro for me, I'm eloing TwoDown. I literally go insane trying to play on sub-30 accounts anymore.
and k Loci, I'll make a new one.
As it turns out, I also go insane playing sub-30 accounts. Each game is like a little bit more of my soul getting ripped out.
On August 18 2011 00:05 Mogwai wrote: crate, if you really wanna help a brotha out, run the following scenarios:
use 21 offensive (6 ArPen, 3 AD, 5% increased damage), and ignore your c spec because we all know flat AD Quints are OP.
levels 1-3 Q and level 1 E with just boots vs. 15, 30, and 45 armor levels 1-3 Q and level 1 E with 1 dblade vs. 15, 30, and 45 armor
levels 3-5 Q and level 1-3 E with 2 dblades, 1 longsword vs. 20, 40 and 60 armor
level 5 Q, level 3-5 E with 2 dblades, brutalizer vs. 30, 60, and 90 armor level 5 Q, level 3-5 E with 2 dblades, BF Sword vs. 30, 60, and 90 armor
The 5% (isn't it 4% now?) increased damage I'm ignoring because it affects them all equally anyway.
I uploaded my results to a spreadsheet since typing them in again would be very tedious. It's here
The numbers you care about are the bottom half of the spreadsheet. The top half is the raw damage at certain AD values; the bottom half is the damage you actually deal against a certain amount of armor. The armor number I put in the sheet is the number after reduction, so it corresponds to what you asked for. Hope it's clear enough.
Top row for each is the full-AD setup, the bottom row for each is the AD quints/arpen marks setup.
edit: If the google docs formatting looks screwy I put the original online here so you can use that. Google docs doesn't seem to like me freezing rows in Excel, lol. scratch that it's because Google hates Opera
I have requested access to the spreadsheet. thanks!
also I lane him mid top or bot, lol. I dunno, I'm playing at low enough levels that I can get away with anything really. He doesn't do well vs. high early sustain, high early damage tops (rumble, udyr), but I think he works out fine everywhere else.
no, you don't get HP from Q, nor does it act like a regular crit for accounting for Crit damage and stuff. I'm just saying that when you Q -> W -> E -> Auto, that Auto that crits at the end there heals a lot when it's critting due to certain death.
EDIT: as far as I can tell, ArPen looks slightly better in most of those scenarios. It looks like ArPen outperforms on Qs pretty much as long as the ArPen isn't higher than the opposing armor, and the Es in all those scenarios look like they favor AD at levels 1-2, are close to even at level 3, and favor ArPen at levels 4-5.
EPT
^____^ Loci stole from me ok. Jokes.
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