He's a poking initiating nuking snarebot, that can also get anywhere he wants to ward (pretty safe warding) and can push lanes/towers like a boss. There's almost nothing you can't do with Kassadin, so this is entirely your playstyle. I play him as a tanky initiating poking snarebot, generally de-prioritizing actual damage output (hence not getting ZRing as fast as people like GJ) - most people don't, they play him like this whonky terrible-burst (only two nukes) nuking vulture but hey, whatever floats your boat as long as it works.
Different playstyles include my Tankassadin, Grandjudge's Vulture Kassadin, DOGkaiser's DPS Kassadin, and statikk's SS/GA/Clarity Kassadin, among many, many others others (Eu DFG Kassadin is also a playstyle, although I think it's a horrible one and only works against bad players/team comps). Especially true when you consider that Kassadin is a highly flexible hero with a strong base selection of spells and a relatively high ceiling for potential (although I still maintain ranged DPS > him, especially teams that babysit their ranged DPS). Knock yourself out, the "line of thought" posted first below (I'll add other stuff as people post them) is my tankassadin and is (as mentioned) pretty different from most players.
Also, sorry for most of this being copy paste mish-mash from the doomed thread and the guide I wrote months ago. Nothing has changed since I wrote my line-of-thought guide (except for W getting shorter cooldown lol) so it's still 100% applicable.
Masteries
0/9/21 non-negotiable. He needs the summoner spells (esp. Cleanse), he needs buff duration, he needs meditation, and he needs SoS.
Runes
You have flexibility here based on your preference. I run MPen Quints and Marks, mana regen per level Seals, and AP per level Glyphs, with one MPen Glyph to let me hit 15 MPen. Some people like having Flat AP Quints instead.
Skill order and play
This is gonna be long and more of an essay than a clear-and-cut guide, and maybe someone (like Neo) will pop it and change my mind on a few things etc. but this is the sort of "flowchart" I follow when I play Kassadin.
Ideally you want a solo lane, IMO, because he's a very dominating solo hero (he plays a bit like Pantheon) and you really want the level advantage to hit 9 ASAP, 9-13 is like the sweet spot for Kassadin because your nukes begin to hit their max firepower, which is important because he only really has two.
Soloing is relatively simple and yet not. For the most part your primary spell is going to be Q, due to its relatively low cost for its damage. Beyond that, a lot depends on who you're facing.
Against most physical DPS you're going to do something like Q W Q E Q, although in some rare cases you may go Q W Q W Q instead (I did it against Kayle) - I think I ended up doing double W because I didn't expect anyone to come (it's annoying ganking Kayle) and I wanted to overwhelm the Kayle with Q spam to supercede her heal - that's where the mana came in. And if she ever tried to stand and fight the higher armor pen let me actually outdamage her. Against Sivir I do something like Q W Q E, I want that early W to pop off the shield and actually land a good Q. One E I found was enough to outdamage her in a standing fight. Against Morgana I just massed Q and W for the same reason as Kayle - I wanted to pound down her shield and out-last her mana-wise. However if you're against someone with Clarity and/or Teleport you switch into farming mode, because you can't outlast, etc.
In the rare circumstance you're 1v2 against two melee, or are 1v1 against a melee, you can raise E over Q, as E scales better (kind of like Annie's W > Q), and E is a much more important spell in teamfights anyways. Even if I open with a stronger Q most of the time I stop at like level 3 Q and just pump E to bring it to 5 ASAP, as it's crucial for teamfights, given that it cools down almost twice as fast and is AoE.
In a 2v2 you're almost always going to level E over Q, and for the most part you ignore W altogether (as is the case against two melee usually) because you're not gonna need that mana return as desperately. It kinda depends on the lane, though, sometimes you'll find it beneficial to grab an early W for extra mana help and to smack people back if they try standing up to you. Always remember that grabbing a level of W is a weaker Q or E, and by relation ~30 less damage every harassment cycle, which adds up really fast. Only get it if you're absolutely certain you just want to whack them down via attrition, because W is largely useless in teamfights. It's hard for me to tell you how exactly I know when to get W, because I usually do it by instinct. Just try to look at your mana expenditure, damage output, lasting power, etc. and try to plot out what you need. It's not super complex but if you mess up it can slow you down a lot.
I favor Cleanse/Ghost. Because of the way you position yourself, and who you tend to go after, you end up being public enemy #1 for a significant amount of time. Between an Annie standing in the back and a Kassadin teleporting into your team to fuck up the carry, who do you think is the easier, and more urgent target? Yeah, the Kassadin. If you play REALLY careful you can get away with not having Cleanse against minimal CC, but I've found I get into the habit of relying on it, and die to the only CC on their team (Rammus taunt) etc.
A lot of people like Clarity, but I think if you're in a solo lane W can trump Clarity, especially if you land a few champion hits, so it's much more of a 2v2 domination spell. I have trouble using it, though, because I'm really stingy with spellcasting, so that's going to be up to player comfort with Clarity. It's nice to have the odd time that you jump too much and need one more bit of juice to escape etc.
I've not taken Ignite because I feel like for the most part Kassadin himself is like an Ignite - if there's a weak target he can usually get them anyways, especially if you take Cleanse.
Flash is nice, but it's about distance covered for me - Ghost will save you in places Flash can't, and vice versa. I'm more comfortable with Ghost, and have randomly died because I didn't realize Flash wouldn't save me in a situation Ghost would, etc.
I run 0/9(SoS)/21 Masteries, reason being that I love Meditate, faster cleanse (from uti21), and the extended neutral buff duration. Because of his nature as a spellcast harasser creep hits usually aren't that big of a deal, anyways. 15% magic pen is overrated IMO, the 3% cooldown is nice but not really worth the 9/0, so get the 6 armor, MR, and some decent hp regen. Better than nothing, anyways.
Item builds, wow I go all over the place here. The only real constants are that I open Doran's Shield + health pot, and I make Catalyst and Sorc Boots, unless it's late and I find I'm just being CC'd to death (then I'll switch to Merc, especially once I've finished Void). In a solo lane you have, if played well or simply better than the bad opponent, been able to farm well due to your OP Q (mm, tears). After Cata, it's really up to whatever you want to do, ala the playstyles I listed way at the beginning of the game, or whatever else you want. Cata's EHP is simply ridiculous, and its level-up effect basically wins you lanes. I have seen some people double-Cata because he's not as reliant on AP, and I've also seem some very good Kass players open Banshee first. Especially if there's a mirror-match - although this worry is obviously not for ranked games though.
I used to rush Soulstealer, but it's risky business. My typical Kass build sidelane Soulstealer into Guardian Angel into Void Staff, but depending on the game I've ended up with weird stuff like 4x Ring into Tear into Abyssal. He's very flexible, and doesn't need much money to dominate the time period he dominates (~level 9 to level 14), and after that it's just a matter of staving off father time via gold. Even with 20 stacks you'll find you just can't keep up late-game, so you're just a tanky support hero. You really, really want to end games in under 35 with Kassadin if you want to remain a relevant nuking carry.
Items I've been known to use: Tear/Arch NLR/Zhon Soulstealer Leviathan GA Abyssal Scepter (for MR) Void Staff Heart of Gold Aegis of the Legion Sheen (for mana)/Lichbane (mana + MR + proc) Haunting Guise Rylai
Positionally he's got some bizarre issues of having one of the most accessible escape/chase spells (that's expensive), a really long-range poke/silence, and an absurdly short-range aoe/poke/snare. What you'll find is that you have to have a really good mental image of the effective ranges of different heroes, and you also find that you chase/engage on foot (instead of teleporting) a lot, unless you're trying to surprise people or needing to cover ground in a hurry. People, in turn, will try to stay a whole screen away from you to force you to teleport for initiation - this lets them get a countermove on you, where you teleport, snare, but they just jump at you, and you've got seconds until your teleport out. His most effective spell is Force Pulse, it's your bread and butter, and it's really tough to use. If you can get good at spacing for Pulse, and can position yourself to constant catch multiple enemies (bonus points if they're squishies) during teamfights, you're on your way to abusing one of the nastiest spells in the game. On the other hand if you're getting ripped apart trying to space it, or die misplacing yourself, etc. then you'll feel pretty weak.
One of the tricks I use a lot initiating is to teleport in just into range, pulse, and ghost backwards, or I'll ghost up, pulse, and teleport a half-step away so that if they're still running I'll have a charged pulse and be able to teleport up to catch them again. If they're running Kassadin has a field day because he can port, pulse, and smack them with autoattack. And in teamfight skirmishes as you're pushing a tower, you're almost always at the front, poking with Q, harassing with E whenever you get the chance, and just being a general nuisance maximizing your damage output
For everything else, check out the spellcaster thread I'm working on :D /end shameless self plug for something that's not even REMOTELY close to done. But that's okay.
Dinky section on abusing Q Because I love having the freedom of an OP where I can add sections at will.
It occurred to me a lot of people, both for and against Kassadin, don't realize the most douchey thing Kassadin does that wins lanes if you're on top of your game. Abusing the fact that he has like a 0.1 cast time, if you're dancing, then one thing you can do is time your "turn" just at outside reach; this leads you to poke your sword out and out flies pew pew lasersphere of OP-ness. But if you've clicked back, he instantly turns around and runs with hardly a hitch - this means the other player had to have responded FASTER than you. The toughest part about this is timing your in-and-out so that your Q radius barely outreaches their range, but if you're on top of your game anyone with less range cannot hit you.
Takes skill, and I myself am inconsistent at it (I have good days and bad days). But if you really want to master Kassadin this is your #1 priority (#2 being spacing E, #3 being last-hitting).
Afterward
Sorry if this doesn't seem very absolute a guide. I hate stamping my foot down and saying PLAY THIS WAY, because that leads to flow-charty drones that suck at the first sign of strange-ness (and yes strange things happen in this game). I'll encourage people to do something, state my reasons, and let them decide, or discourage something, etc. but I really hate going THIS IS WHAT YOU DO, especially on a flexible hero like Kassadin where evidently going DPS works okay for some people like DOGKaiser, bless his heart. I can't fathom doing it. I just don't play in a structured enough way to write a guide that's much more than a patchwork of "things I think about" as I buy items/level-up skills/etc. over the course of a game.
Hopefully the OP gives you a good idea of how to approach him, though, and the pros and cons of different items and skill builds, and lets you think about how you can take advantage of him the best you can. And if you have any questions we're here to help :D
Most 1v1 matchup against heroes that have bad range are easy, for obvious reasons. Garen's annoying because he regens naturally in bush and it's a tough matchup autoattack vs spin. Heroes that have equal or superior burst and can outlast your attrition (Annie, well-played Trist, etc.) can give you trouble. MF is a crapshoot, sometimes I win sometimes I lose. Kogmaw destroys you.
It's tough not opening Shield because his HP is his biggest problem, not his mana - you'll have plenty of it from W. I don't think RIng is a viable opening at all, it's either Shield or Sapphire, depending on how you intend to play (Sapphire okay if you play highly defensive and go for a mutual free-farm sort of strat, but Kass' freefarm is automatically worse than other ranged DPS' freefarm so it's a huge sacrifice to let their MF/Trist/etc. freefarm better than you).
Weird, I find Garen to be fairly easy. I'm definitely not a good Kass but beat some decent Garen players 1v1. Silence when they try to spin, snare when they start, kite them, autoattack when it's about to stop spinning. At 6 it gets even easier...
I deny them creep kills because I force them to sit in the bushes but they counter Q harass with Courage and are always a kill threat with Q->spin. I dunno, I find it an aggravating matchup, lol.
What about Kayle solo top? I have a lot of trouble in that matchup; I try keeping Q up to outlast her heals (with an early level in W), but I can't stop her from farming for the most part.
Remember that's just one strat; as far as I know Grandjudge does Cata -> Zhonya, so that sort of playstyle is also feasible, you just end up playing him more like Katarina/Yi then
doran's + hp boots 1 tear cata rod SS sorcerer's AA zhonya's void
And I did really well with it overall, 2.0 kd in low level ranked, but I felt like if I didn't go off in the mid game then I would not have the burst to make up for my lack of defense come late game.
I did my first game with a more tanky build going: doran's + hp boots 1 cata SS sorcerer's GA abyssal
and then the game ended but I would have had money for what I would have used on banshee's. I got solo top and ended up carrying my team really well until around 40 minutes (when the game was pretty much over) when kog went off as he does in late game. I got 20 stacks on my SS at 28 minutes which is saying a lot. I felt like I didn't have to play so defensive as I did with my pure AP build which is really good. I ended up finishing the game 16-1-10.
The only problem with the defensive build is that I don't feel like I can spam rift-walk at all. When I got that early tear I could spam it all I wanted practically. Without it, I feel like I really need to weary of my mana and only use it when when it has 0 or 1 stacks while saving mana for Q and E mostly.
Have you tried running mana regen per level on glyphs to try and remedy this or does it not even make a dent in it? Or am I too spoiled with my rift-walk spam and it's something that I'll just have to get used to?
Ugh I'm torn. I really like this tanky build but the creativity that makes me love kassadin just doesn't seem to be there with it since I can't riftwalk as much.
I wish there was a comfortable way to get tear in there with the tankassadin build but it just seems so akward to fit in.
I use Riftwalk pretty scarcely for a pretty long while. I know some people love spamming the crap out of it and using it as a third nuke, and obviously if you do you'll build a bit differently and sacrifice something else, mweh. I think you'd go for a second Catalyst rather early.
maxing w before e seems really foreign and exotic to me, i'll try it tomorow. mana never seems to be a problem for me. problem is usually when i'm up against a ranged carry that can zone me out, corki mf etc. w would probably be good against melee middles
maybe it's because my rune page isn't done yet so i'm stuck with full mp5 blues and yellows lol
It just seemed that during the mid game, where it's agreed he is by far the strongest, I wasn't able to finish off a lot of kills that I normally could because I was so low on mana. It was like I had enough mana for 3 or so combos but then I had to save my last couple hundred mana to be able to get away if I had to.
I'll just have to keep experimenting because I'm not completely satisfied with either. With the build I was using I feel like AA and rod is overkill and getting SS that late isn't satisfactory. It puts me in a pickle though because on one hand I want the mana efficiency of AA and if I cut that out I feel limited but if I cut out rod I feel like I have zero survivability.
My go-to build is Cata -> SS -> RoA, and I've been known to end games with something like RoA RoA SS Sorc ZRing VoidStaff and Blue/Red Elixir chugging. I've always found double RoA + Golem more than sufficient for mana.
Edit: Actually for the most part I find Cata/RoA + Golem is sufficient too, but when I end up with the second Cata/RoA or Veil I can start whacking people with 5 stack Rifts for funny damage.
I usually just get it as a survivability item later in the game, and turn it into a second RoA charge-time be-damned for extra AP. So it's definitely not early, and is after a significant number of items (something like Cata -> SS -> RoA -> ZRing -> Void Staff -> Cata -> RoA, for instance). I dunno.
The key is to maintain Golem buff and be a bit more frugal with Riftwalking, but again it's a playstyle issue. If you like charging up your Rift prior to a fight and blasting people with a 4-5 stack Rift then obviously you have a pressing need for something like Tears.
It's a playstyle you can choose to do, and if it keeps working for you then by all means go for it.
Yeah I'll be doing some experimenting tomorrow to see which style I want to lean towards.
I'm going to try something similar to the last build you mentioned and then
doran's shield + hp tear boots 1 SS cata RoA sorcerer's AA zhonya's void staff
I think the rift walk spam might be too ingrained in my head to get away from now but I'll have to wait and see what I think later today when I try them out.
Remember, you can do something, and when it starts to not work as well as you go up the ladder, you'll hopefully have gotten a better and better understanding of the game and pros and cons of different builds to start adjusting. I didn't get to my build from the start, it's what I tweaked into "what I like best," and is why my guide has a giant list of items you can get, and is also why I don't force anyone to get a specific item
In other words, don't feel compelled to take an item/skill build from a "top player" just because they posted it. It's more important for you to understand the thinking process behind their choices, look at what your opinion is, and learn from it. That's my philosophy is, anyways.
On November 07 2010 10:18 Tooplark wrote: Hey Uta, what are some notable solo matchups for Kass? Who does he absolutely stomp? Who does he lose to?
He stomps most casters, loses to trist. And since the new champs and other changes from the beginning of s1 there are champs that you just won't win or lose against, especially those like sion who will instagib your wave and push like nothing, the ones you level E over Q because you're in serious risk of losing your tower without anyone getting low on health.
He doesn't lose to Trist per se, it's like Ashe in that it's very much a skill vs skill matchup. The better player (or the player more on his game) will win. Same goes for MF. Generally you'll see a stalemate at equal skill.
He stomps a lot of sub-par ranged heroes like Kayle, many casters, that sort of goodies. He'll also generally demolish melee heroes, so don't even try.
He gets wrecked by Kog'Maw - there's nothing you can do except go away.
Creep-clearing heroes (Galio, Morgana) are annoying but you can end up zoning them because you're still a stronger 1v1 hero. They'll make the creep come for you though but clearing yours really quickly.
Healers (Taric, Soraka, Nidalee, etc.) give him fits.
i didn't realize you max Q before E, i always kinda thought that E was your main nuke (greater base damage + scaling) and you just max Q till level 6 then E after, does it not make any sense to level them in conjunction? actually i guess if you play him as a poker instead of a burster that makes sense.
My most recent Kass game went Shield -> Cata -> Boot -> Sorc -> SS -> Cata -> RoA -> RoA -> NLR -> Blasting
I used the build because I wasn't able to farm, wasn't inclined to farm (heavy fighting), and I was doing some nasty initiating all game so I needed to be able to survive and last a while. For instance, when we tried to initiate mid I literally waltzed through their whole team, and when I was told we didn't truly engage yet because they weren't bunched, I jumped onto their Corki and snared him, FORCING their team to bunch up.
[3:30:39] nightseternal: so my belief is that [3:30:54] nightseternal: it's not even possible to stalemate a lane with kassadin against a good ranged dps player [3:31:36] nightseternal: cuz basically [3:31:38] nightseternal: for a minute [3:31:46] nightseternal: they just push you back from creep [3:31:51] nightseternal: while last-hitting [3:31:56] nightseternal: and they'll inevitably get whittled down [3:32:02] nightseternal: from your Q + all thec reep hitting them [3:32:12] nightseternal: but if you're good, like regi, smgzy, and a lot of such players [3:32:17] nightseternal: all you do is chug potions [3:32:22] nightseternal: while abusing this minute or so of lasting-hitting [3:32:24] nightseternal: then you go back [3:32:32] Shakedrizzle: yea he backed so many times [3:32:36] Shakedrizzle: and had like 4 pots [3:32:37] nightseternal: and during this period the threat of your tower being pushed is next to nil cuz kassadin can't actually push the creep [3:32:41] nightseternal: and if kassadin backs [3:32:43] nightseternal: he backs with no gold [3:32:48] nightseternal: so the only way for kass to stay even [3:32:54] nightseternal: is to take adv of absence and last-hit,which is why i did [3:32:58] nightseternal: but eventually he just out-lasted me [3:33:06] nightseternal: by nature of his 4 backs vs my one while i tried to finish farming cat [3:33:13] nightseternal: and finally when i finished cat i started demolishing him but [3:33:19] nightseternal: by that opint it looked like 100 vs 40 cs
So after trying out a lot of different builds, after I've gotten used to watching my riftwalk stacks a lot more closely the one that has been my favorite is
doran's shield + hp cata boots 1 SS RoA sorcerer's zhonya's void staff banshee's/RoA
Thanks for the help refining my build, southlight.
im really glad i tried to get good at kass awhile back. it really taught me alot about teamfight dynamics because kass plays such an interesting role in them. and if you dont really do it right you just die immediately.
also just played normal 5s with locicero and some other ppl as kass and sucked ass. they REALLY didnt like me and kept FFing me >_<. i just turned into a snarebot so rammus,mundo and panth could catch up.
*edit also uta what do you do vs sivir? do you just abandon Q and throw points into E? spell shield imba against slow missiles
This is a totally wrong way to play Kassadin, the League of Legends homepage lists the champion as a melee / fighter / carry / farmer champion, you should stack crit and AD to have synergy with the AS boost from his passive and the armor pen from his W [/endtroll]
On November 09 2010 02:57 Zato-1 wrote: This is a totally wrong way to play Kassadin, the League of Legends homepage lists the champion as a melee / fighter / carry / farmer champion, you should stack crit and AD to have synergy with the AS boost from his passive and the armor pen from his W
Hey utah, I'm pretty new to kassadin but I was in a game earlier today playing as him and I have couple questions. I was carrying my team pretty hard when the enemy kassadin basically starts playing what I guess I would describe as hybrid kassadin to counter me. His build was as follows
Merc treads Gunblade Rageblade Lichbane Malady GA
Point is he was tearing me apart by waiting for me to rift-walk in, silencing so I can't escape, then bursting me down and forcing me to fight melee against him. It was devastating. I had double RoA, Banshees, Zhonya, void staff, and soulstealer. What would you do vs something like that?
Get some Armor. GA instead of Banshee's. Drop the SS if there aren't more than 10 charges. Same with Void Staff. If you're getting hard countered by another champion, don't stick with your glass cannon build. You're getting whittled down by physical attacks, drop some MR and AP and pick up some armor.
Drop priority SS >= Void Staff > Banshee's. Selling a Banshee's always hurt, so here's to hoping that you're adapting your build while you play and picking up a GA instead of a Banshee's.
On November 11 2010 11:41 Ruken wrote: Hey utah, I'm pretty new to kassadin but I was in a game earlier today playing as him and I have couple questions. I was carrying my team pretty hard when the enemy kassadin basically starts playing what I guess I would describe as hybrid kassadin to counter me. His build was as follows
Merc treads Gunblade Rageblade Lichbane Malady GA
Point is he was tearing me apart by waiting for me to rift-walk in, silencing so I can't escape, then bursting me down and forcing me to fight melee against him. It was devastating. I had double RoA, Banshees, Zhonya, void staff, and soulstealer. What would you do vs something like that?
melee kass sucks because he's reliant on being in melee range
get a ga if you had double roa already and get some mitigation. his build is reliant on standing there dpsing you for like 4-5 seconds, which is bad when his build is quite squishy like that. of course melee kass > ap kass 1v1
I just don't understand how that Kassadin didn't explode every time he tried to Rift at someone to kill them. Is like Arcane Shifting into the enemy team to hit them from melee range with Ezreal. How the f do you not just, die.
Edit: I mean, even me trolling with true AD Kassadin and racking up crazy kill sprees I had trouble surviving until I stacked Life Steal... and I was basically ahead the whole game so that was npnp, primarily because the Trist failed at laning vs me.
This guy's running some hackney hybrid build that makes no real sense, no sustained survival or anything, just a GA.
Looks like he just had enough MR to mitigate your damage, and since you probably didn't have any he owned you.
I recently tried double RoA, it doesn't seem to work very well for me. You can't kill anyone (if you end up getting mitigation items) and you end up getting killed just as fast as if you didn't have that HP, without the mitigation items.
I've been playing kass recently, mostly because I got inspired by your guide and vids on youtube, really great stuff.
Solo laning though I've been having some mixed results vs vlad. Last game I played I think he had defensive masteries(he had +6MR) and he just maintained high hp and spammed q on creeps if needed. Is there anyway to really beat a vlad after you're both lvl 7 or should I focus more on staying alive/keeping him busy while last hitting as much as possible.
On the other hand I played a vlad a couple of days ago who I had no problem zoning him. My Q just seemed to hit harder.
P.S.: I use flat ap quint since I haven't bought mpen ones yet.
Post-7 most heroes struggle to kick out Vlad; the life gain is too much. The idea against Vlad isn't so much to obliterate him but to abuse your earlier advantage with Q to farm up, so that by the time he starts gaining a foothold you're farmed up, have Catalyst, etc. Short of a strong EQR by Vlad you're a stronger hero than him anyways.
Edit: Casters in generally have a difficult time preventing the opponent from farming; when they do, people cry OP.
For instance, Vlad's annoying as hell, but how often does he really stop an MF, Trist, etc. from farming if they want to? How often does Morgana actually stop farm? Galio? Anivia's notorious for giving opponents 6 levels of free-farm.
On November 11 2010 11:41 Ruken wrote: Hey utah, I'm pretty new to kassadin but I was in a game earlier today playing as him and I have couple questions. I was carrying my team pretty hard when the enemy kassadin basically starts playing what I guess I would describe as hybrid kassadin to counter me. His build was as follows
Merc treads Gunblade Rageblade Lichbane Malady GA
Point is he was tearing me apart by waiting for me to rift-walk in, silencing so I can't escape, then bursting me down and forcing me to fight melee against him. It was devastating. I had double RoA, Banshees, Zhonya, void staff, and soulstealer. What would you do vs something like that?
yeah, i also got wrecked a while back by a similar build, xcept i remember a manamune in there somewhere. It was kinda crazy and really jarring. He also seemed really difficult to kill as well, tho it could just be that im bad
On November 11 2010 11:41 Ruken wrote: Hey utah, I'm pretty new to kassadin but I was in a game earlier today playing as him and I have couple questions. I was carrying my team pretty hard when the enemy kassadin basically starts playing what I guess I would describe as hybrid kassadin to counter me. His build was as follows
Merc treads Gunblade Rageblade Lichbane Malady GA
Point is he was tearing me apart by waiting for me to rift-walk in, silencing so I can't escape, then bursting me down and forcing me to fight melee against him. It was devastating. I had double RoA, Banshees, Zhonya, void staff, and soulstealer. What would you do vs something like that?
yeah, i also got wrecked a while back by a similar build, xcept i remember a manamune in there somewhere. It was kinda crazy and really jarring. He also seemed really difficult to kill as well, tho it could just be that im bad
A good kassadin doesn't need a good build to be hard to kill.
Ya you just run at the first sign of danger. Then you KS to look like you're carrying, then after that you blame the rest of your team for being negative.
I'm curious. There's been some talk about AD Kass (seeing as he has some of the highest base damage in the game and insane armor pen and teleport for mobility), but i'm wondering if a hybrid sort of build might be doable. EG something like:
I always pack cleanse so that I can make the enemy team commit to me and then peace out before things get too dicey. Then I can come back and penta-assist with snares at 10 hp.
On December 30 2010 09:38 Abenson wrote: 2 RoA because uta was prolly the only person doing dmg and needed more hp =.="
It's more that one of the strongest things about Kassadin is his ability to abuse positioning, and the best way to do that is to have a lot of survivability. Kassadin does a lot of damage over time elapsed (as opposed to straight burst or DPS) so it behooves you to stay alive as long as possible. I know there's a lot of glasscannon builds (Smash prefers Cata -> Tear like Anivia, for instance) but I just don't play like that. Be aware though that this is also a solo-queue-derived mentality and habit that Neo constantly teased me about, so you may not have to bother about it.
If you noticed during that game during teamfights I was constantly juking and running the Malphite around - he'd be Q W E Ring me all fight and I'd be jumping back and forth nailing targets while maintaining range on Malphite as much as I could - this is in addition to all the random shit Fiddle Veig and Cass would throw at me to try to keep me off them (which often ended in failure) - the tragedy was that I couldn't actually hurt the Malph/Olaf, especially because I accidentally made Zhonya instead of Void (if you remember me going "SHIT wrong item T_T"). But AP heroes tend to struggle taking down tanks anyways (save for Malz, but that's also why some, myself included, feel Malz is the only true AP "carry" in the truest sense of the word) so there's nothing I can really do about that regardless. I was also initiating teamfights by jumping in, snaring people, and then forcing them to either hit back (combat open) or risk being picked apart (which is what happened every time they attempted to retreat - I'd pick them down as they ran back, and eventually whittled enough for me to engage and kill them, hence the constant chain kills as they attempted to back off). Hence Kassadin one-man-army, and the basis for my terrible nuker-initiator habits regardless of which nuker I played (ie. Anivia, Malz, and so on and so forth).
Neo (half) joked that I should run SS 4RoA ZRing, and I responded in dead seriousness that I probably would if I had the farm.
Edit: Also some people (mainly Smash, I guess) wondered what I did sidelane at one point, and I was like, well you could do the old-Uta/Statikk build of SS -> Tear -> GA -> Arch (or some sort of similar), or you could do the ghetto Uta Snarebotankassadin with double Cata. Yes, it works. And it's hellishly effective, too. So yeah.
Positioning and knowing everyone's limits. There's a lot of intricate item, CC, and damage balancing you do and you have to do a lot of juking and kiting. He's got a huge ceiling in power (as he literally does not die until you make the conscious decision to risk it) but because he's got a combination of short-ranged blasts you always "risk dying" by getting in position to output your damage. For every game that I look like a god, there's probably a game where I cost a game by making one terrible decision. He's VERY stressful in that regard.
Of course, if you play Vulture Kassadin (ie. not that strong-adin) the only skill you need is patience and the ability to 1a2a3a... or the LoL equivalent thereof.
On December 31 2010 05:48 Southlight wrote: Positioning and knowing everyone's limits. There's a lot of intricate item, CC, and damage balancing you do and you have to do a lot of juking and kiting. He's got a huge ceiling in power (as he literally does not die until you make the conscious decision to risk it) but because he's got a combination of short-ranged blasts you always "risk dying" by getting in position to output your damage. For every game that I look like a god, there's probably a game where I cost a game by making one terrible decision. He's VERY stressful in that regard.
Of course, if you play Vulture Kassadin (ie. not that strong-adin) the only skill you need is patience and the ability to 1a2a3a... or the LoL equivalent thereof.
You should really pare down your walls of text. summary, positioning. tbh as long as you have some hp and ap and a little mana you can build whatever you want, just have to be more or less paranoid depending.
basically you just kite and then every once in a while you take a huge risk, if you mess up one of them your entire game loses steam, if they were all good ones you rape. It's zero risk 90% of the time and 100% risk 10% of the time.
I thought id post my kass build cuz i have average of like 3x or 4x the K/D of any of my other heros and kass feels so OP lol
~1300 ranked but I feel im better
Reasoning behind this build is great laning that can out CS other player 90% of the time followed by a tanky midgame/lategame.
Summoner Spells: I do cleanse and ghost. Sometimes replacing cleanse with teleport. The cleanse I will need vs any serious stuns you need to avoid, you can decide based on the team comp. Theres a cool trick where you can ult a bunch of times, teleport somewhere then ult and do unexpected burst damage. Also helps to be everywhere and snipe squishies, you are an assassin. I do ghost so that in team fights I can land my ult ontop of people who are running away and/or get away from people chasing me easier. Who needs flash, kassadin's flash has like a 3 sec cd.
Masteries: 9/9/12 I do (Magic pen/strength of spirit+2 in armor/experience mastery, mana regen)
Runes: magic pen reds, mana regen per lvl yellows, cooldown reduction per level (or ability power per lvl) blues, flat HP quints (or ability power per lvl, or flat ability power if you plan to poke early)
Skill order: QEQEQRQ then R>Q>E>W could think about throwing in an early W to help charge E. If you are in side lane you probly want to max E over Q. I prefer a solo with this build, top or mid both work.
Laning:lvl 1-4 dont take a ton of damage just to get a few last hits, use your Q and E if charged just for last hitting if you are forced to. Lvl 5 you can poke your opponent with Q and E, do it earlier if your opponent went a squishy opening and cant regen much and/or punish you. Lvl 6 I love to zone my opponent whoever it is (my runes/mastery/catalyst gives me great laning mana and hp). Ult toward your opponent but off to the side to throw a Q, its a way of making the range of your Q twice as long at the cost of roughly 2x the mana, add an E if its charged and try to E before Q to get another charge.
Items: open up dorans ring+health pot, heal after you have money for catalyst, then if you are doing well in your lane or have confidence you can get kills get soul stealer then rush rod of ages. Spell pen boots if there isnt a ton of notable CC, merc treads otherwise. Then banshees (if lots of CC), free cleanse magic resist thing (the name escapes me) vs a warwick/malhazar as they will probly aim for u, then zhonyas, then archangels. Void staff if more than 2 enemy heros have more than 100 magic resist.
Reasoning behind item order is I want the catalyst for laning, if i get tear i feel really squishy if the other team has something that can catch you (tear is good in some situations). Rod of ages and banshees because I'm always getting focused, soul stealer to make them try to focus me more.
I could think about opening up mana crystal to help get catalyst faster but I prefer the hp and mana regen for better laning, i feel i make it pay for itself.
I tend to hog a lot of my team's kills so I have no issues being the first one in the fight. I'll usually run up and E or ult in then E and run back to my tank, whichever is ideal. The CC of your E will slow down the opponents enough for your team to pile ontop of people. Your job is to do sustained damage every time your stuff is off cooldown. You dont dive in and blow your wadd then die. NoNoNo you Q+E then get out, go back in Q+E then get out ect. You will do a lot more damage by going in and out and you may pull the enemy's attention away to help your allies. If however you are in the situation you arnt focused feel free to sit in as long as possible then blink out. You are kinda tanky if need be.
Did 32/3/23 in a ranked game just yesterday. Enjoy kassadin hes super easy
In love with kassadin right now, message me questions/comments or just post after this
How do you feel about this opening? Last week I was watching Bigfatjiji's stream and he played kass in a normal game. He opened with a rejuv bead with a bunch of health/mana pots rather than the doran shield+health pot combo. I pretty much went that build for my last 10 kass games and dominated mid when I soloed.
Note that I'm only level 27 so obviously this might not work at higher level elo. Jiji's opening actually makes a lot of sense to me. When I use the dorean sheild combo, I always feel like I need a tiny bit more health/regen or mana to put enough pressure on the opponent to zone them out or make them play more passively. With Jiji's opening, I can spam Q to get them super low by level 5, and if they don't back, it's usually a free kill at level 6 or 7. The only time I lost a lane in those 10 games was when I faced a malhz who had clarity and he literally dot+silence me on every cooldown. Also the mana pots will let you skip that level of W and go straight for QE for max damage.
Also, what is the "optimal" way to harass? Usually I use Q about 3 times at level 1 to keep my mana below 100% and then I wait for level 3 when Q is level 2. Then I harass until level 4ish (I stop when my mana is at 60% or so), at which point I wait till level 5 before I mass spam until I run oom, Am I better off just pooling my mana until level 5 before I start mass harassing?
It's far too situational to boil down to a strict formula, but you have more or less the right idea.
On a separate note, I think one of the most underused aspects of Kassadin is his imba passive attack speed coupled with his fucking retard base DPS stats. At low levels, I find myself picking a lot of auto-attack fights with people because he's just better than nearly everyone at it. He's got one of the best attack animations in the game too, which sure helps you stick to someone once they realize you're kicking their ass. for instance, a couple nights ago, this malphite wanted to trade Qs with me, so he did and then he apparently thought it was a good idea to come up and ground slam when silence wore off. Well, with his Q buffing my AS and activating my nether blade I tore him a 2nd asshole before he could waste even more mana to do paltry damage and barely affect my AS through my imba passive + take creep aggro. Like, 90% of what makes me good with Kass in lane is understanding my damage output from auto-attacking and abusing my passive.
By the way, how much ASpd do you get anyways? Is it based on the damage, or is it a flat amount per each chunk of magic damage you take? What's the cap?
I usually find myself laning against ranged champs if I play Kassadin, and against those autoattack fights usually put you in range of his creeps while he is out of range of your creeps. Not very favorable despite the ASpd bonus imo.
On January 11 2011 06:14 spinesheath wrote: By the way, how much ASpd do you get anyways? Is it based on the damage, or is it a flat amount per each chunk of magic damage you take? What's the cap?
According to this, it's 15% of the magic damage taken (e.g. equal to the amount that the passive stops), and overlaps but doesn't stack.
4. If you get hit for 500 magic damage, your attack speed is increased by 75% for the next 4 seconds. If you get hit for 200 magic damage 2 seconds later, your attack speed will still be 75% for the next 2 seconds (to finish out the initial 4) and then it will go to 30% (from the 200 damage) for another 2 seconds. A lower attack speed % will never overwrite a higher one.
So in a level 3-5 exchange, it's probably something around 15-20% attack speed.
On January 11 2011 06:16 Slayer91 wrote: You don't bother getting W as kassadin until like level 13 and even then you never use it. Play him like your typical AP champ.
An early rank in W is really good for laning. The passive component helps your mana sustainability quite a bit, and the active lets you trade autos in situations like the one Gizmo described above. QWQE is a perfectly acceptable start.
And 25 mana to add a charge to E is situationally useful even later on, so I wouldn't say you "never" use it, even past laning.
I open QWQWQ on solos, lol. W is a really underrated ability. It lets you cheat on runes with like MPen/Armor/MRes/HP, and you just sit there and auto-attack like a noob to keep mana high and they can't do jack shit about it and when they do you get the equivalent of ArPen Marks to aid in the auto-attack fight. Having W is also awesome for when you have a tear of the goddess to pump it up.
EDIT: Speaking of which, I've been considering going ArPen on my Marks with Kass, as I think that 15 ArPen might end up being a bigger deal in laning than the 9 MPen later when I'm getting a Void Staff anyway.
I haven't actually tried QWQWQ, so I can't actually comment on how good it is, lol. I do know I prefer having at least 1 rank of W, simply because low-ranked E just doesn't do a whole lot for you in laning, while W is quite useful.
On January 11 2011 06:32 Mogwai wrote: EDIT: Speaking of which, I've been considering going ArPen on my Marks with Kass, as I think that 15 ArPen might end up being a bigger deal in laning than the 9 MPen later when I'm getting a Void Staff anyway.
Do you get Sorc Boots on Kass? Because IMO that 9 MPen makes the biggest difference when its taking them from 10 MR to 1 (e.g. that window between when you have Sorc Boots, but they don't have any MR sources yet).
Because I play with/against baddies, that window tends to be reasonably large, so I find I like having that 9 MPen, but its probably much smaller against people who know wtf they're doing.
yea, I usually go merc treads to make myself as difficult to kill as possible. I agree that 29 mpen vs. 30 MRes is beast as hell, but I just don't get situations like that. Most people I lane against have early treads or negatron or base MRes growth. My build is VERY much about the late game, it's really slow but it's also excellent at just sitting in lane farming to the point it needs to get. I guess I'm heavily influenced by growing up around Utah's initiating snarebot Kass -_-.
On January 11 2011 06:16 Slayer91 wrote: You don't bother getting W as kassadin until like level 13 and even then you never use it. Play him like your typical AP champ.
Always get it somewhat early. Spam to keep your E up. Spam to fill your tear. I used to spam it even more back when I built Locket on Kassadin :p
yea i always feel like in the midgame i need to do alot as kass, which means i need moar damage. so alot of the time i forget to put points into W. idk then again ive never tried going W before E
I doubt 1 rank in E is huge enough to "slow down his snowballing", though it may depend on playstyle. W (and in consequence doran's shield) helps a lot in dueling but E is more teamfight oriented skill
I've been running shield -> boots -> Cata -> Tear -> rabadons + Merc -> RoA -> Archangels, with elixir pump after finishing rabadons. I've also shifted to QWQEQR -> R > Q = E (depends on the lane) > W (rather than getting 2 early points in W). Kass is just so fucking mana hungry that I have an impossible time giving up the tear.
I run mp5/lvl yellows and blues, and dont really have any problems with mana. On a related note: i dont have the ip for magic pen reds, so im running my arpen ones. ez farm and hitting a champ for 60dmg while getting mana back? yes please.
Oh and merc threads<sorc boots imoimo, but that's because i run ghost/cleanse.
On January 13 2011 20:59 mercurial wrote: If you can´t even lane with Kassadin without W you should stop playing him, skilling W slows his snowballing.
I don't know how you can say this, and at the same time make this comment in the Kennen thread:
On January 10 2011 08:37 myopia wrote: if Kassadin builds properly (0-9-21, opening dshield), and plays properly (Kennen's Q is a skillshot, Kassadin's is not - this is a big deal), Kennen doesn't have much of a chance.
congrats, you've never played against a kennen that knows he should skill W over Q at lvl 3/4 for cooldown and damage purposes.
Implying that Kass should get owned in lane by Kennen.
It's not about W being a crutch during laning--it's about 1 or 2 points in W having the ability to noticeably affect certain lane matchups off of your ability to really push damage through your autoattacks.
On January 14 2011 02:38 Awesomo wrote: I run mp5/lvl yellows and blues, and dont really have any problems with mana. On a related note: i dont have the ip for magic pen reds, so im running my arpen ones. ez farm and hitting a champ for 60dmg while getting mana back? yes please.
Oh and merc threads<sorc boots imoimo, but that's because i run ghost/cleanse.
I run ghost + cleanse too, I just am really really aggressive with baiting fights as Kassadin, so I build incredibly safe. Cleanse is for the initial CC as you bait and Merc Treads are for the subsequent CC that happens as the fight drags out.
On January 13 2011 20:59 mercurial wrote: If you can´t even lane with Kassadin without W you should stop playing him, skilling W slows his snowballing.
I don't know how you can say this, and at the same time make this comment in the Kennen thread:
On January 10 2011 08:37 myopia wrote: if Kassadin builds properly (0-9-21, opening dshield), and plays properly (Kennen's Q is a skillshot, Kassadin's is not - this is a big deal), Kennen doesn't have much of a chance.
congrats, you've never played against a kennen that knows he should skill W over Q at lvl 3/4 for cooldown and damage purposes.
Implying that Kass should get owned in lane by Kennen.
It's not about W being a crutch during laning--it's about 1 or 2 points in W having the ability to noticeably affect certain lane matchups off of your ability to really push damage through your autoattacks.
Those comments prove a point not contradict eachother.
In 1 comment I'm talking about kassadin not being able to beat kennen when he skills W because if you farm you take 2 MOTS and can easily combine into a 3rd which then results in taking the 1st mots that starts the chain again.
And in the other comment I am talking about how skilling W slows down kassadin. (notice how even if you look at them that I'm actually saying that if you skill W as kassadin and rely more on melee you will get hit more by Kennen)
So Kennen's just going to forsake last hitting to save his W passive proc so that he can trade W passive proc + W active with Kassadin's Q? Kass wins these trades on the back of SoS's regen in my experience (not to mention his Q does more than that Kennen shit at level 3+ AND he has his imba passive to soften the blow).
On January 14 2011 03:56 Brees wrote: your team must hate you at dragon fights, where kassadin can absolutely break the game with maxed E at level 9. so broken.
it also makes farming easymode when you can E an entire wave instead of sitting around and auto attacking all of them, waste of time
referring to people that dont level E
How exactly do you max E by level 9 without feeding/getting no farm in lane?
On January 14 2011 03:56 Brees wrote: your team must hate you at dragon fights, where kassadin can absolutely break the game with maxed E at level 9. so broken.
it also makes farming easymode when you can E an entire wave instead of sitting around and auto attacking all of them, waste of time
referring to people that dont level E
How exactly do you max E by level 9 without feeding/getting no farm in lane?
how does maxing my best ability make me not get any farm? dont understand
On January 14 2011 03:45 mercurial wrote: apparently kennen's don't have shurikens or lightning rushes
vs. a melee hero who's last hitting amongst his own minions and doesn't need to try to set up angles to harass you, how exactly do you play on landing Shurikens? And how do you expect to use your lightning rush offensively without taking it directly up the ass? I'm more than happy to get into a close range auto-attack fight amongst my minions with a Kennen who just charged my passive.
not to mention that I'm being EXTREMELY generous in assuming you could even trade auto-W + active-W for my Q considering I outrange your auto by 125 with my Q.
On January 14 2011 03:56 Brees wrote: your team must hate you at dragon fights, where kassadin can absolutely break the game with maxed E at level 9. so broken.
it also makes farming easymode when you can E an entire wave instead of sitting around and auto attacking all of them, waste of time
referring to people that dont level E
I typically end up farming top all game, LOL. When I'm mid, I do make E a higher priority for dargon fights.
On January 14 2011 03:45 mercurial wrote: apparently kennen's don't have shurikens or lightning rushes
vs. a melee hero who's last hitting amongst his own minions and doesn't need to try to set up angles to harass you, how exactly do you play on landing Shurikens? And how do you expect to use your lightning rush offensively without taking it directly up the ass? I'm more than happy to get into a close range auto-attack fight amongst my minions with a Kennen who just charged my passive.
not to mention that I'm being EXTREMELY generous in assuming you could even trade auto-W + active-W for my Q considering I outrange your auto by 125 with my Q.
Rofl, your saying I couldn't autoattack you if you Q'd me? xD
your also being very generous with forgetting about how clumsy heroes walk about through creeps, not to mention the fact that theres no need for an angle seeing that im the one that outpushes you, meaning you have less creeps then me, making it easier for me to hit those q's because you won't have enough creeps to hide behind. So you'd either have to give up cs or take a hit.
On January 14 2011 05:31 Brees wrote: and ya kennen shits on kassadin i dont know why this is even a debate. its not even close, kass gets zoned from lvl 1.
but kennen beats pretty much any1 1v1 so doesnt mean much
*shrugs* I think Kass wins it. I haven't lost the matchup yet but maybe the Kennens I play against suck.
On January 14 2011 03:45 mercurial wrote: apparently kennen's don't have shurikens or lightning rushes
vs. a melee hero who's last hitting amongst his own minions and doesn't need to try to set up angles to harass you, how exactly do you play on landing Shurikens? And how do you expect to use your lightning rush offensively without taking it directly up the ass? I'm more than happy to get into a close range auto-attack fight amongst my minions with a Kennen who just charged my passive.
not to mention that I'm being EXTREMELY generous in assuming you could even trade auto-W + active-W for my Q considering I outrange your auto by 125 with my Q.
Rofl, your saying I couldn't autoattack you if you Q'd me? xD
your also being very generous with forgetting about how clumsy heroes walk about through creeps, not to mention the fact that theres no need for an angle seeing that im the one that outpushes you, meaning you have less creeps then me, making it easier for me to hit those q's because you won't have enough creeps to hide behind. So you'd either have to give up cs or take a hit.
uhg, I wish you were on NA so that I could just show you what I'm talking about. I'm not theorycrafting, I'm going off of my experiences in the matchup from both sides. Kassadin simply wins attrition vs. Kennen.
On January 14 2011 05:31 Brees wrote: and ya kennen shits on kassadin i dont know why this is even a debate. its not even close, kass gets zoned from lvl 1.
but kennen beats pretty much any1 1v1 so doesnt mean much
*shrugs* I think Kass wins it. I haven't lost the matchup yet but maybe the Kennens I play against suck.
On January 14 2011 03:45 mercurial wrote: apparently kennen's don't have shurikens or lightning rushes
vs. a melee hero who's last hitting amongst his own minions and doesn't need to try to set up angles to harass you, how exactly do you play on landing Shurikens? And how do you expect to use your lightning rush offensively without taking it directly up the ass? I'm more than happy to get into a close range auto-attack fight amongst my minions with a Kennen who just charged my passive.
not to mention that I'm being EXTREMELY generous in assuming you could even trade auto-W + active-W for my Q considering I outrange your auto by 125 with my Q.
Rofl, your saying I couldn't autoattack you if you Q'd me? xD
your also being very generous with forgetting about how clumsy heroes walk about through creeps, not to mention the fact that theres no need for an angle seeing that im the one that outpushes you, meaning you have less creeps then me, making it easier for me to hit those q's because you won't have enough creeps to hide behind. So you'd either have to give up cs or take a hit.
uhg, I wish you were on NA so that I could just show you what I'm talking about. I'm not theorycrafting, I'm going off of my experiences in the matchup from both sides. Kassadin simply wins attrition vs. Kennen.
If Kennen takes W at level 1 and charges the passive on jungle creeps before coming to lane, Kass will have a hard time last hitting levels 1-3.
However, there are also a lot of bad kennens who eats free Q's trying to last hit, or provokes too many minion aggro while retaliating.
Kennen usually does come out ahead if he uses lightning rush to tank Kassadin's Q, close the gap to below 575 and then autoattack + stun combo the crap out of Kass.
Keep in mind that as the levels go up, Kass will scale better with the exchanges, but early on, his inability to deal back physical damage makes him really bad vs Kennen who can close gaps so easily.
On January 14 2011 06:23 Juicyfruit wrote: If Kennen takes W at level 1 and charges the passive on jungle creeps before coming to lane, Kass will have a hard time last hitting levels 1-3.
However, there are also a lot of bad kennens who eats free Q's trying to last hit, or provokes too many minion aggro while retaliating.
Kennen usually does come out ahead if he uses lightning rush to tank Kassadin's Q, close the gap to below 575 and then autoattack + stun combo the crap out of Kass.
Keep in mind that as the levels go up, Kass will scale better with the exchanges, but early on, his inability to deal back physical damage makes him really bad vs Kennen who can close gaps so easily.
LMAO. Take W at level 1? Good fucking luck with that one chief, haha.
EDIT: I mean, literally the entire reason Kassadin doesn't just run up on you and jack you up with auto-attacks is because it makes him eat shurikens. If you take W, I will literally just walk up to you and attack you if you try to apply a W mark to me.
Then you'll have to engage in autoattack on my side and getting stunned after 4 autoattacks and eating 2 W passive and 1 active.... not to mention the free autoattack on the way in and the autoattacks you'll have to take everytime u disengage, whether it's because I retreated to my tower or whatnot.
I mean it's not like Kassadin has a blink early on. He's not pantheon, so he can't just "walk up and attack" in the span of 1 kennen auto.
W on lvl 1 is bad. First of all you don't attack neutral creeps as Kennen. Second: you can't check bushes. Third: the active CD is rediculous at lvl 1, shuriken's is not.
Also, a Kassadin will never engage at lvl 1 unless he has exhaust & ignite, or you make some retarded mistake.
As a solo-lane Kass, I used to think [W] was useless until [Q] and [E] were maxed. However, I have recently changed my mind.
I used to start with Sapphire Crystal and took Clarity. However, I decided to try out some more durable options. I now start with Doran's Shield, and take Ignite. "Winning" the lane is due to simple attrition. By the time I'm 6, if my lane is 1v1, my opponent is generally forced to go back home. This sets up a great gank window as I'm now free of my lane's responsibilities for a time.
If you're at mid, prior to lvl 6, you're probably not going to land [E] vs a ranged character unless they're pretty bad. Thus, I feel that I can safely take just 1 rank in [W] and away from [E]. I would never get [W] at level 1 though.
If you skip W in favor of E, you obviously do it to have E maxed asap for strong for R-E combos without sacrificing Q ranks. Doesn't really matter if you can use it before lvl 6 or not.
On January 14 2011 08:23 Juicyfruit wrote: The reason you take W on Kassadin at level 2 is really so that you can start with Doran's Sheild instead of Doran's Ring.
Agreed.
[S]orry you find it [W]eird. It's an old habit from [a]nother [g]ame. :D
On January 14 2011 07:24 Juicyfruit wrote: You can kite the wolves around before going mid, and charge the passive before going to lane, easily, without losing exp or taking any damage.
This is legit, but not the best opening vs kassadin in particular. A good kassadin will take note of when ur shuriken is charged and they can q accordingly if they think you're going for an auto, leaving u with a wauto trade for a q at best (not the best considering passives and if he opens dshield and whatnot) and getting q kited at worst if the kassadin has no lasthits he wants to go for. The biggest problem is that if you really want to keep kassadin "zoned" at level 1 you have to save ur wautos for him and can't lasthit yourself lol unless kassadin stupidly lets you charge ur passive on lasthits only (in which case you could probably win against him regardless of skilling order). Also, at level 1, the chance of you getting a stun off (two wauto procs) is fairly low if the opponent knows what he's doing (when to pull back and how to trade etc).
On January 14 2011 07:24 Juicyfruit wrote: You can kite the wolves around before going mid, and charge the passive before going to lane, easily, without losing exp or taking any damage.
This is not viable in a game where lvl 1 fights are frequent @ higher ranked. People trie to steal red's/blue's all the time, or wraiths if your name is 5hit. You need the lvl 1 shuriken for bush checking, long range damage and if you get lucky, a stun.
Sure you can pull it off before you start playing with the good people, but why get used to something you can't always use? Its like playing nasus till 1600 only to realise that people know hes crap and ignore him at that point.
You'll almost never ever stun anyone with a level 1 shuriken alone. Bush checking with it is legit but let's not pretend level 1 shuriken is significant damage either. It ultimately gives away position on both sides. Incidentally, taking W at level 1 occasionally lets you pull off a stun if a level 1 fight lasts long enough.
In ether case, not sure how taking Q at level 1 would be better vs Kassadin. It's really hard to hit, it can't even fire if you are silenced (compared to a W-charged auto), and it does more or less the same damage is an autoattack. A [W]-charged auto followed by a [W] in exchange for a Null Sphere actually favors Kennen, and it instantly puts 2 marks on Kassadin, meaning he will need to back the hell up or lose his lane right there.
Incidentally, by taking [W] at level 1, you are also taking [E] at level 2. That way, Kassadin will be forced to eat Kennen's auto everytime W is charged.
At level 3, you take another point in [W]. At this point, [W]'s cooldown will be shorter than mark of the storm's duration, so you can really abuse the shit out of kassadin since [W]'s range is what, 900? which is 200 longer than Q.
If Kennen takes shuriken at level 1, this whole strategy falls apart, and you're basically condeding free-farm to Kassadin, which is what a lot of you are suggesting Kennen should do.
W range is shorter then Q's actuall hit range. And you don't need E at lvl 2.
I actually skill this btw: Q>W>W>E>Q
your saying Q-ing bushes gives away your position. So what? your doing it to NOT GET FUCKED, and the chances of you hitting a person with a w passive in a team fight twice is not even discussable. that person would've backed a long time ago if he has 2 MOTS on him. Taking Q, however, will give you greater damage output and a higher range attack.
And no, getting shuriken first doesn't let Kassadin win the lane, unless your really really reallllyyyy fucking bad.
And if you say he has to eat your W autoattack every time its charged, you'll be giving up your own cs aswell.
I'm saying checking bushes alone is not reason enough to take Q at level 1 by itself. It's strange that you think it's laughable to hit someone with 2 W passives, and yet feasible to hit the same person 3 times with a level 1 shuriken. Ultimately, in order stun a single target in a level 1 teamfight, I just need to make 5 consecutive autoattacks on the same target (xxxOxxxO, and then hit W. It's quite feasible if your teammates have any sort of CC/exhaust
Shuriken's not really that much better for that level 1 teamfight, and you give up a massive lead vs Kassadin when you lane vs him. If you really think you'll need shuriken because a level 1 teamfight happens 100% of the time, then by all means take Q and give up your massive advantage levels 1-3 vs Kassadin.
Taking [E] at level 2 means Kassadin can't just back up everytime you charge your W, since you can close the gap and put the mark on him. You don't lose out on any creepkill because you aren't holding onto your charged W; it's being used immediately to harass.
Kassadin will eventually beat Kennen after level 5 when his Q starts hitting harder and harder, in addition to having more magic resist, a passive that reduces magic damage, and more regen via SoS which also scales up with levels. The whole business of taking Q at level 1 means you have to hit shurikens to do any harassing. If Kassadin simply doesn't care and just gives up a little bit of farm, he can just wait it out until he's got the advantage and then turn the tables.
I have a really hard time laning vs Kassadin no matter who the heck I'm playing (though I haven't tried my cho gath with flat mres yet though...). It's bloody annoying, at least with Vlad his Q doesn't have six million range anymore.
Like if I'm a caster and I'm laning vs Kass I just start weeping right there.
On January 17 2011 02:31 phyvo wrote: I have a really hard time laning vs Kassadin no matter who the heck I'm playing (though I haven't tried my cho gath with flat mres yet though...). It's bloody annoying, at least with Vlad his Q doesn't have six million range anymore.
Like if I'm a caster and I'm laning vs Kass I just start weeping right there.
if u have blue buff i would take ulti for shure, hands down riftwalk stacks imba
the main advantage of levelling r at 11 though is that it reduces the cd on ur ult by 1 second. 6-> 5 is quite a bit of a reduction. of course, if you play 100% vulture kassadin style it is fine to level e instead if u r going a q-centric build or vice versa. however even then levelling r for the faster escape time and damage with stacks makes it a choice to think about.
On January 19 2011 02:13 Mogwai wrote: Kassadin is BEAST on TT. The only bad thing is that there's no blue buff on the map so mana management is trickier.
Kass isn't a very popular pick on TT for some reason.
On January 19 2011 02:13 Mogwai wrote: Kassadin is BEAST on TT. The only bad thing is that there's no blue buff on the map so mana management is trickier.
Kass isn't a very popular pick on TT for some reason.
If I had to guess I'd say it's because he takes a little while to kick in (he feels like a bit of dead weight up until level 6) but I still think he's one of the best, if not the very best, AP carries on TT. Riftwalk is just so broken for kiting on that stage.
On January 19 2011 02:13 Mogwai wrote: Kassadin is BEAST on TT. The only bad thing is that there's no blue buff on the map so mana management is trickier.
Kass isn't a very popular pick on TT for some reason.
If I had to guess I'd say it's because he takes a little while to kick in (he feels like a bit of dead weight up until level 6) but I still think he's one of the best, if not the very best, AP carries on TT. Riftwalk is just so broken for kiting on that stage.
TT is still a very tanky meta. One of your champions can have a jump like Riftwalk, Trynd's Spin or Shaco's Deceive. But the problem is what you said, Kass has a weak presence until mid/late game. Kass's best skill is his Force Pulse but over all, everything Kass can do, Shaco can do just as well and clown has jungle control.
I still haven't seen a good shaco on TT tbh. How would you build him so that he doesn't just instantly explode vs. most teams? That's always been my issue with him in theorycrafting, but I just haven't seen any of them to prove otherwise.
On January 19 2011 03:38 Mogwai wrote: I still haven't seen a good shaco on TT tbh. How would you build him so that he doesn't just instantly explode vs. most teams? That's always been my issue with him in theorycrafting, but I just haven't seen any of them to prove otherwise.
Most of the time, if you don't snowball and playing vs a competent team, you'll want to go Madred's => Banshee. Yes, you're squishy but make use of the stealth/jump. Spell block helps immensely. Randuin's looks good on paper (simple pre-reqs, great physical defense, nice active) but it's not something I've actually tried yet.
Bloodrazor is an eventual must because most teams run at least two tanks, if not three.
hmm, interesting. If I didn't suck so hard with shaco, I'd try to try him out on TT, but I seriously blow with him. Actually, this is stupid, I'm going to make a TT discussion thread so that we don't ruin Character specific threads with generalized talk about a specific map.
On January 19 2011 02:13 Mogwai wrote: Kassadin is BEAST on TT. The only bad thing is that there's no blue buff on the map so mana management is trickier.
Kass isn't a very popular pick on TT for some reason.
If I had to guess I'd say it's because he takes a little while to kick in (he feels like a bit of dead weight up until level 6) but I still think he's one of the best, if not the very best, AP carries on TT. Riftwalk is just so broken for kiting on that stage.
TT is still a very tanky meta. One of your champions can have a jump like Riftwalk, Trynd's Spin or Shaco's Deceive. But the problem is what you said, Kass has a weak presence until mid/late game. Kass's best skill is his Force Pulse but over all, everything Kass can do, Shaco can do just as well and clown has jungle control.
Has more to do with the fact that Kass's best skill is an aoe that's going to be hitting less people, that he already has huge problem burning down tanks, and that he can't jungle worth a dick on a map where jungle control is paramount.
I honestly wouldn't run kass in the solo lane when I could give it to cho or something similar.
On January 19 2011 02:13 Mogwai wrote: Kassadin is BEAST on TT. The only bad thing is that there's no blue buff on the map so mana management is trickier.
Kass isn't a very popular pick on TT for some reason.
If I had to guess I'd say it's because he takes a little while to kick in (he feels like a bit of dead weight up until level 6) but I still think he's one of the best, if not the very best, AP carries on TT. Riftwalk is just so broken for kiting on that stage.
TT is still a very tanky meta. One of your champions can have a jump like Riftwalk, Trynd's Spin or Shaco's Deceive. But the problem is what you said, Kass has a weak presence until mid/late game. Kass's best skill is his Force Pulse but over all, everything Kass can do, Shaco can do just as well and clown has jungle control.
Has more to do with the fact that Kass's best skill is an aoe that's going to be hitting less people, that he already has huge problem burning down tanks, and that he can't jungle worth a dick on a map where jungle control is paramount.
I honestly wouldn't run kass in the solo lane when I could give it to cho or something similar.
Force Pulse is one of my favorite anti-tank skills in the game tbh. It allows so much kiting and has a great combination of CD, AoE size, CC duration, damage and mana cost. It might not be able to rip a tank up as quickly Feast or a Malz pool or Hungering Strike, but Kassadin just kills by kiting anyway and it's pretty much optimal for his playstyle.
I mean, Utah's favorite meta-game to play Kass in was the Tank spam meta, where he could just relentlessly dick over all Melee with Force Pulse. TT's meta is pretty similar to that meta, so I think it's really effective for the same reasons.
Speaking of TT Shaco, when i have shitty game as shaco on SR i usually go br -> tank or when i feed REALLY hard i go lantern -> tank and usually have np problem coming back. Though it may be just enemies being bad and focusing me since i'm supposedly "squishy"
On January 19 2011 02:13 Mogwai wrote: Kassadin is BEAST on TT. The only bad thing is that there's no blue buff on the map so mana management is trickier.
Kass isn't a very popular pick on TT for some reason.
If I had to guess I'd say it's because he takes a little while to kick in (he feels like a bit of dead weight up until level 6) but I still think he's one of the best, if not the very best, AP carries on TT. Riftwalk is just so broken for kiting on that stage.
TT is still a very tanky meta. One of your champions can have a jump like Riftwalk, Trynd's Spin or Shaco's Deceive. But the problem is what you said, Kass has a weak presence until mid/late game. Kass's best skill is his Force Pulse but over all, everything Kass can do, Shaco can do just as well and clown has jungle control.
Has more to do with the fact that Kass's best skill is an aoe that's going to be hitting less people, that he already has huge problem burning down tanks, and that he can't jungle worth a dick on a map where jungle control is paramount.
I honestly wouldn't run kass in the solo lane when I could give it to cho or something similar.
Force Pulse is one of my favorite anti-tank skills in the game tbh. It allows so much kiting and has a great combination of CD, AoE size, CC duration, damage and mana cost. It might not be able to rip a tank up as quickly Feast or a Malz pool or Hungering Strike, but Kassadin just kills by kiting anyway and it's pretty much optimal for his playstyle.
I mean, Utah's favorite meta-game to play Kass in was the Tank spam meta, where he could just relentlessly dick over all Melee with Force Pulse. TT's meta is pretty similar to that meta, so I think it's really effective for the same reasons.
Its not. Kass needs a solo lane in order to do well. The solo lane on TT benefits from pushing hard and then jungling, getting a huge xp advantage in the process. Kass cannot do that. In fact, he's crushingly weak against that type of play. Kass will be behind in levels and will not be able to burst anyone down if he goes to the dual lane and the problem compounds itself even more.
Blinking over walls is fantastic, but there are heros that can do so that perform better on TT in general.
Okay, how do you lane v Irelia? I have no idea how to play that matchup. She has too much lifesteal to Q her down, she has better laning burst, and I can't stop her from farming.
On January 24 2011 19:26 dnastyx wrote: Okay, how do you lane v Irelia? I have no idea how to play that matchup. She has too much lifesteal to Q her down, she has better laning burst, and I can't stop her from farming.
I would just focus E vs. Irelia and focus on last hitting. Killing that bitch is really fucking hard.
Am I the only one who thinks teleport is superior to anything on Kass?
What I've been running is pure Q/E with Doran's Ring, mana regen runes and that mastery that turns max mana into health regen. Second summoner spell is debatable, but it's usually Ignite when I feel like going brave or Cleanse in all other circumstances. People advocate going W at start to help with mana regen while they take DShield to help with health regen, but doing so will reduce your ganking potential (Teleport ganks are almost impossible to avoid, but being there without a slow is just stupid) and will somewhat harm your laning because instead of two damage spells and a slow you will only have one damage spell.
Stronger autoattacks with W are fine, but vs most champions you will have to lane against they are hard as fuck to land and just having more regen doesn't cut it. The only time I take it early is when I go the ultra-brave Rageblade first Kassadin, but that is not probably a serious build. On the other hand, if you haven't already, give it a try, you basically take both buffs, slice through towers like butter (50 APen!!!) and pwn anyone in 1v1. In 5v5 situations it ain't that great though.
1) Teleport lets you stay in lane for infinite time without any regen. 2) Teleport is the best counterganking tool in the game, especially on Kassadin. 3) Teleport is generally one of the most team-friendly spells in the game. 4) Kassadin's worst problem is inability to replenish HP. Teleport lets you bluepill and immediately return during a push.
Flash on Kassadin blows (if riftwalk didn't save you, flash won't either) and Cleanse is what you take as the second spell. Map travel speed on Kassadin is a myth, noone would ever blow half of his mana just to reach his lane faster and mana-safe riftwalking in the ideal scenario gives 400 extra units of distance covered every 7 seconds which equals 57 extra movespeed, less if you take reaction into account. Big deal, huh. Blitzcrank will run faster than that with regular boots, reaction not needed.
Teleport is one of the most useful summoners, that's not debatable. However Kassadin is one of the champions who need it the least. I really don't get why you say it's good "especially on Kassadin".
Except for the last part of 2), which completely lacks any reasoning, you take Teleport on Kassadin for reasons that also apply for pretty much every champ. Sure, Teleport is good, but not "especially on Kassadin".
If you frequently blow Teleport to return to lane then you basically lose all the utility it provides otherwise.
On January 25 2011 19:24 BluzMan wrote: 1) Teleport lets you stay in lane for infinite time without any regen. 2) Teleport is the best counterganking tool in the game, especially on Kassadin. 3) Teleport is generally one of the most team-friendly spells in the game. 4) Kassadin's worst problem is inability to replenish HP. Teleport lets you bluepill and immediately return during a push.
Flash on Kassadin blows (if riftwalk didn't save you, flash won't either) and Cleanse is what you take as the second spell. Map travel speed on Kassadin is a myth, noone would ever blow half of his mana just to reach his lane faster and mana-safe riftwalking in the ideal scenario gives 400 extra units of distance covered every 7 seconds which equals 57 extra movespeed, less if you take reaction into account. Big deal, huh. Blitzcrank will run faster than that with regular boots, reaction not needed.
On January 25 2011 19:54 spinesheath wrote: Teleport is one of the most useful summoners, that's not debatable. However Kassadin is one of the champions who need it the least. I really don't get why you say it's good "especially on Kassadin".
Except for the last part of 2), which completely lacks any reasoning, you take Teleport on Kassadin for reasons that also apply for pretty much every champ. Sure, Teleport is good, but not "especially on Kassadin".
If you frequently blow Teleport to return to lane then you basically lose all the utility it provides otherwise.
Imagine a (fairly typical) situation - you're standing on mid, and two people at bot are abit ahead of their creeps, ideally, initiating an attack against your two champs. Kassadin works well here because twhen they see the teleport and start running away, it's too late because you have an AoE slow and a blink. This is a rather unique combination of abilities that lets you, coupled with your teammates, score two kills pretty much reliably. Kassadin is an excellent chaser, on of the best, if not the best in the game, so quickly appearing somewhere with a teleport will net kills, you're fast enough to teleport to a ward in the jungle, score a kill, and get away free. Yes, many other champs can do the same with the aid of another summoner spell, but Kass doesn't actually have to waste a second summoner spell to do it.
Teleport allows you to play very aggressively in mid starting at level 3 and, if everything goes well, you and your enemy will be quickly brought down to pretty low health, but you immediately restock and buy your first items (boots or red crystal or something else), with this, you will immediately drive off the enemy from mid and make them take a painful blue pill themselves or die. "Buying a catalyst instead" is a shitty argument because you will never be able to farm it so fast especially since Kass is not exactly the champ to get 100% CS before level 6 vs a good mid, simply because he's melee. Teleport serves as a quick restock tool at low levels (first 1-2 teleports) and a gank/countergank/towersave tool in the midgame. In late, it's value is undeniable.
Yep, I frequently blow teleport to return to my lane, and I frequently use it in other ways, it's flexible, that's the point.
On January 25 2011 19:24 BluzMan wrote: 1) Teleport lets you stay in lane for infinite time without any regen. 2) Teleport is the best counterganking tool in the game, especially on Kassadin. 3) Teleport is generally one of the most team-friendly spells in the game. 4) Kassadin's worst problem is inability to replenish HP. Teleport lets you bluepill and immediately return during a push.
Flash on Kassadin blows (if riftwalk didn't save you, flash won't either) and Cleanse is what you take as the second spell. Map travel speed on Kassadin is a myth, noone would ever blow half of his mana just to reach his lane faster and mana-safe riftwalking in the ideal scenario gives 400 extra units of distance covered every 7 seconds which equals 57 extra movespeed, less if you take reaction into account. Big deal, huh. Blitzcrank will run faster than that with regular boots, reaction not needed.
as long as you arent replacing cleanse with teleport its fine. i think the second summoner is definitely up to playstyle. I do ghost because im so used to having it on every champ and im a baddie.
as for teleport specifically, you really shouldnt be taking it just so you can blue pill and have easier laning. that just seems like a crutch. with SoS+medit and mp5pl seals you really should be fine in early laning. and then in the midgame a catalyst, smart casting and blue buff should get you there. as for antiganking, as someone said before teleport is good on any champ for that.
On January 25 2011 21:56 Kaniol wrote: In other words - you are taking tele on kassadin just to use it in very niche and rare situation which happens once a 20-30 games?
Counterganking opportunities happen every game. If you ever played Dota/Hon, you'll know that tp counterganks happen in basically every game and the best heros to do so are ones with mobility moves/blinks along with stuns/slows. Teleport on a hero like Kassadin lets you mirror that style of play.
IMO teleport to return to lane isn't a major issue if you can time your bp's well. Whenever I look at top players like TreeEskimo, I'm always amazed that they can keep up in experience and gold while going back 2-3 times in lane (he basically never takes experience mastery either).
On January 25 2011 19:24 BluzMan wrote: 1) Teleport lets you stay in lane for infinite time without any regen.
- doesn't matter, sitting in your lane for an infinite amount of time is not a valuable trait. - kassadin already crushes in lane - you are thinking like 'if I go b and teleport back I got a free b'. Well, no, they made you burn a summoner
2) Teleport is the best counterganking tool in the game, especially on Kassadin.
true, it is a decent spell
3) Teleport is generally one of the most team-friendly spells in the game.
heal is very team friendly, this isn't even a point
4) Kassadin's worst problem is inability to replenish HP. Teleport lets you bluepill and immediately return during a push.
that isn't his worst problem, he has two legit problems:
- weak early level in lane - getting caught out while kiting
teleport only helps marginally with the first one (if you get forced back to fountain in the first few levels you have problems that will not have gone away whether you walk or tele back) and not at all with the second one.
Flash on Kassadin blows (if riftwalk didn't save you, flash won't either)
no... :<
Map travel speed on Kassadin is a myth, noone would ever blow half of his mana just to reach his lane faster and mana-safe riftwalking in the ideal scenario gives 400 extra units of distance covered every 7 seconds which equals 57 extra movespeed, less if you take reaction into account. Big deal, huh. Blitzcrank will run faster than that with regular boots, reaction not needed.
Teleport is a great summoner spell for soloQ kassadin. SoloQ's all about adaptation, since random nonsensical shit happens all the time and it's up to you to swing it into an advantage. I run the stolen-from-utah cleanse/ghost kassadin, but I still have to admit that there are times where I wish I had teleport for easy kills or saves.
I used to play Kass all the time but really dislike him. He's an early game dependent champ who only excels if he gets farmed early, but isn't strong enough to farm champs early. He never wins teams games, he's a good snowballer that looks really good when his team is winning - but what champ doesn't?
I don't know. I feel like any game you win with Kass you win with him as another character, and a lot of games you lose with Kass you win with a more stable AP carry.
I don't need to hear, "You've never seen my/a good/a properly played... Kass". I've seen a fair bit of first and second pick Kass's either losing lane horribly and losing us the game or losing lane horribly and getting carried into a full Mejais at 17xx ELO.
I can definitely do stuff with Kass that isn't as easy/possible with other characters. His repositioning skill lets me snipe squishies and escape for my CDs to come back up.
Kass isn't a standard AP carry. That's Anivia, Annie, etc. He could be the AP carry if he gets fed enough but you shouldn't consider him as the main source of magic damage on your team. He's an AP assassin.
Kass should not be losing a solo lane, a tie at worst. If you're not champion farmed you still can do a comparable amount of damage that is still relevant to anyone else during midgame. I don't see him being lackluster at any point in the game bar early game mana problems and not being able to sufficiently trade hits against someone aggressive.
On January 26 2011 12:48 R04R wrote: I can definitely do stuff with Kass that isn't as easy/possible with other characters. His repositioning skill lets me snipe squishies and escape for my CDs to come back up.
Kass isn't a standard AP carry. That's Anivia, Annie, etc. He could be the AP carry if he gets fed enough but you shouldn't consider him as the main source of magic damage on your team. He's an AP assassin.
Kass should not be losing a solo lane, a tie at worst. If you're not champion farmed you still can do a comparable amount of damage that is still relevant to anyone else during midgame. I don't see him being lackluster at any point in the game bar early game mana problems and not being able to sufficiently trade hits against someone aggressive.
I still stand by speccing Kass as a tank. I think he loses a lot more lanes if he shows up with +15 AP, +28 AP @ 18, +16 Mana Regen @ 18 vs. +97 HP, + 13 MRes, + 13 Armor.
Hey everybody- I'm new here, but thought I would throw my .02 about kass as he is easily my best champ.
masteries 9/7/14, taking the obvious 9 in offense, specing defense for strength of spirit (so godly for early lane staying power), and then 14 in exp boost, mana regen, and 2 in buff duration
I do mpen/clarity/cd blues/apquints for runes, and cleanse/teleport for summoners
start with blue crystal and 2 pots and focus on just last hitting. blue pill at 925 gold for catalyst. from there you are basically able to harass at free will and should dominate most solos. next time back get boots and tear and follow with mejais, upgrade to sorc boots, finish banshees, arch staff, deathcap, void staff. works great for me, just need to always be getting blue buff whenever you can. Very blue dependent without any itemized cdr.
is the 9 in offense needed that badly? You could get additional movespeed, cdr, and summoner cdr for 15% magic pen (which is not noticable in the early game unless they rush double negatron or something funky like that as compared to your sorc boots + marks).
how do you do against carries like corki or MF who have high attack damage combined with other pokes that allow them to shred you to pieces without dshield? imo it would be pretty hard to deal with from levels 1-4 at the very least before you can start doing decent trades with them at 5. i would expect that it would be at least situational to grab dshield vs mana crystal.
that's a good question on the 9 in offense. I always assumed it was needed but I may try loading util a little heavier and maybe just get void staff earlier if needed.
but as far as phys carries go, I haven't had a lot of trouble with MF (SoS + 2 pots keeps me around long enough for 925 usually), she just makes me have to q to last hit a lot more. I haven't played with enough good corkis to tell yet, but so far the worst char to lane against as far as harassment goes might be caitlyn. she is really tough to deal with early so rushing catalyst is not fun.
On January 28 2011 07:27 Mogwai wrote: I still stand by speccing Kass as a tank. I think he loses a lot more lanes if he shows up with +15 AP, +28 AP @ 18, +16 Mana Regen @ 18 vs. +97 HP, + 13 MRes, + 13 Armor.
What about AP/Mpen/Armor/AP?
24starting AP 13 Armor 8.5mpen
HP quints are always good but the 15AP = about 10.5 more Q damage, which will erode the HP advantage eventually. Plus, it accelerates the process of winning the lane when Kassadin is at an advantage . Mostly all that flat AP is to help Q hit extra hard from the get-go since it will be something like 80 (+17), which is a pretty big increase.
Another thing is, against what opponent is the Mres particularly helpful to win?
On January 29 2011 08:31 gtrsrs wrote: every time you use a Q on a creep as kassadin, you push your opponent a little closer to winning the lane
also god kills a kitten
if you're losing the lane, q'ing creeps is just fine ~.~
if you're losing the lane, Q'ing creeps is def not going to make you win the lane, and they're not going to relinquish their lead imo, so i'm p sure my statement still holds true
On January 29 2011 08:31 gtrsrs wrote: every time you use a Q on a creep as kassadin, you push your opponent a little closer to winning the lane
also god kills a kitten
if you're losing the lane, q'ing creeps is just fine ~.~
if you're losing the lane, Q'ing creeps is def not going to make you win the lane, and they're not going to relinquish their lead imo, so i'm p sure my statement still holds true
especially the cat part
You Q a creep to get gold to get your catalyst faster. Then you win your lane because Catalyst op. So yes, Q'ing a creep is perfectly fine and can help you win your lane.
On January 28 2011 07:27 Mogwai wrote: I still stand by speccing Kass as a tank. I think he loses a lot more lanes if he shows up with +15 AP, +28 AP @ 18, +16 Mana Regen @ 18 vs. +97 HP, + 13 MRes, + 13 Armor.
What about AP/Mpen/Armor/AP?
24starting AP 13 Armor 8.5mpen
HP quints are always good but the 15AP = about 10.5 more Q damage, which will erode the HP advantage eventually. Plus, it accelerates the process of winning the lane when Kassadin is at an advantage . Mostly all that flat AP is to help Q hit extra hard from the get-go since it will be something like 80 (+17), which is a pretty big increase.
Another thing is, against what opponent is the Mres particularly helpful to win?
all casters. 50 MRes + Kass passive lets you rape every mage in trades.
Right, BUT if you are already going to be winning trades to the extent that they don't want to be trading with you in the first place , regardless of your Mres runes, wouldn't you rather have more damage to win your lane faster?
my simplistic thought process is that MRes blues keep flat mpen in check. With flat mres blues and 3 Resistence, you basically negate sorc shoes which lets you stay in the lane vs. early game-centric builds that get early sorc shoes/HG.
On January 29 2011 08:31 gtrsrs wrote: every time you use a Q on a creep as kassadin, you push your opponent a little closer to winning the lane
also god kills a kitten
if you're losing the lane, q'ing creeps is just fine ~.~
if you're losing the lane, Q'ing creeps is def not going to make you win the lane, and they're not going to relinquish their lead imo, so i'm p sure my statement still holds true
especially the cat part
Using Q to lasthit creeps at least at levels 1-2 when it does not do more damage than your autoattacks is SO standard that I fear there is a huge pile of dead kittens out there somewhere.
So doublelift's swain gave me some real trouble in the ESL scrim night, anyone have any thoughts on that matchup? It seems like swains early damage output is too strong to fight early and it lets him boss you around for too long, then he hits 6 and ults the fuck out the lane and locks you on your tower with the pushes (you can't kill him because of the fucking lifesteal + he still has creeps)
Es only second best bird anyway. What are people's thoughts on AD Kass? There was a thread on the LoL forums about it recently and I couldn't tell if it was a massive troll or viable on some level.
He doesn't have to turn on his bird unless he's taken damage; he won't take damage unless you silence him or blink next to him forcepulse or auto. If you silence him, he can just heal it back before silence is off cd, and if you blink next to him, you'll eat his full combo then maybe be able to make him waste 2 bird-seconds of mana, tops. That's about 100 mana, maximum. Either way, I think Kass loses.
On February 11 2011 01:21 Mogwai wrote: So doublelift's swain gave me some real trouble in the ESL scrim night, anyone have any thoughts on that matchup? It seems like swains early damage output is too strong to fight early and it lets him boss you around for too long, then he hits 6 and ults the fuck out the lane and locks you on your tower with the pushes (you can't kill him because of the fucking lifesteal + he still has creeps)
Birdman is kinda like Catwoman lite. Another words, if you don't get ganks on Swain, he's going to end up like a Nidalee. Hard to harass but near impossible to push out of lane once he hits 6.
And you definitely need at least one Ignite for him in team fights. I daresay he's hardcountered by Ignite.
With practice should I be able to Null Sphere Pantheon and Vlad without getting Aegis'd or Transfused, respectively? Null Sphere is 700 range whereas the other two are 600 range, which I feel is basically a hair's width worth of latency so I'm unsure if I should keep trying to master that.
On February 12 2011 04:00 Dezzimal wrote: With practice should I be able to Null Sphere Pantheon and Vlad without getting Aegis'd or Transfused, respectively? Null Sphere is 700 range whereas the other two are 600 range, which I feel is basically a hair's width worth of latency so I'm unsure if I should keep trying to master that.
With Vlad it's definitely possible to not get transfused.
With Panth I'm not sure you can if he goes boots-first. The difference in movespeed might be large enough that he can get in jump range before the Null Sphere projectile hits him, even if you play correctly.
On February 12 2011 04:00 Dezzimal wrote: With practice should I be able to Null Sphere Pantheon and Vlad without getting Aegis'd or Transfused, respectively? Null Sphere is 700 range whereas the other two are 600 range, which I feel is basically a hair's width worth of latency so I'm unsure if I should keep trying to master that.
I dunno, I don't find it really hard enough to require practice >_<. But yes, you should be able to Q and run away without taking harassment most of the time.
Heres a replay of me trying to do it in the mid lane Kass vs. Panth. Feels like the cast animation + travel time is more than enough for that 100 range difference to be made up.
I can't watch replays, but what's the big deal if he's silenced when he hits you? He doesn't really have a good follow up. Anyway, if I had to guess, I'd say you're picking the wrong time to poke with Q. You want to try to punish his last hits with it so that he needs to get out of his attack animation before he can close distance.
I like Teleport/Ghost 0/9/21 QWQEQR -> R > Q = E > W in most matchups, but it is matchup dependent. If you never get to auto-attack creeps (like vs. Morde), just skip W. And if they 1 shot creepwaves and are hard to harass (morg, sion, sivir, etc), I prioritize E, otherwise I max Q after level 6.
On February 11 2011 02:49 Mogwai wrote: except that Kassadin mercilessly dumps all over Nidalee.
Have you ever gotten double buff with nidalee on the other team? You can just go across the map in a straight line towards her and kill her lol, kass with a buff is totally unfair against nid.
On March 15 2011 09:29 Phunkapotamus wrote: I highly doubt that diagonal R is actually farther than any other direction. It's just just looks like that because of the game's camera angle.
Read the link posted. You travel in a straight line through terrain, so if you hit a wall at an angle, you're travel further than just heading straight through.
Mmhmm. You could replace one of the RoAs for Arch (more AP/Mana) but HP>those two in my mind. Also when you get the third Cata/RoA/Tear/Arch I think it's usually too late to really charge the AA much anyways. Plays mostly the same but you need to take adv of his ult damage now to make up for the lowered FP damage, if you're trying to carry.
More seriously - that's quite a good question, i haven't played kassadin since ryze was buffed so i wonder. My guess is playing kass vs ryze may be similar to kass vs vlad, but i'd rather wait till more competent players answer
On March 24 2011 07:11 Southlight wrote: No clue, my pride just got bludgeoned by a lanewick, lol.
Why would your pride get bludgeoned by him? Lanewick seems to have a fantastic setup against kass. if you move to creeps to stop him from healing up between your Qs, he bonks you with Q and you lose the trade. If you don't and stay back, he heals and outfarms you. When he tosses on sv/mercs, you just stop doing damage.
pfft you can deal with warwick by opening reju beads and 6 hp potions and just lasthitting with melee, he cant really use normal attacks because of minions
I opened Regrowth and he tanked minions like crazy and I still got rocked. I pulled out almost every trick in the book, I just played it wrong, and needed to towerhug and spam E instead of Q ;/ Either way there's no stopping WW from freefarming the lane.
With Kass versus Ryze focus lvling Q over E. If the item matchup is hp regen mass pots versus ryze's sapphire 2 pots you will win any trades especially if they go the mass flat mana rune pages instead of MR blues. You won't be ahead in farm till you can catch up by making him b or forcing him to play more passive but that happens in basically all lanes with kassadin.
On June 14 2011 12:42 0123456789 wrote: Time to abuse this to death. 2 E's... OMG so godly!
How to do double cast. I need to practice this and become #1 kassadin, but spamming e doesn't do double cast, even with smart cast
Apparently it's a lot harder than Lee Sin. If you don't have a bad enough ping it's literally impossible, even with macro keyboards/software. So EU->US or US->EU OP.
On June 14 2011 12:42 0123456789 wrote: Time to abuse this to death. 2 E's... OMG so godly!
How to do double cast. I need to practice this and become #1 kassadin, but spamming e doesn't do double cast, even with smart cast
Apparently it's a lot harder than Lee Sin. If you don't have a bad enough ping it's literally impossible, even with macro keyboards/software. So EU->US or US->EU OP.
Naw, playing on US servers from Taiwan so OP. Every game I have red ping trololololo
Nether Blade Passive mana restore increased at earlier ranks to 8/11/14/17/20 from 4/8/12/16/20 Active changed to 20/30/40/50/60 (+0.15 ability power) bonus magic damage dealt on hit instead of 7/15/25/38/50 armor penetration
honestly i think that kass change will be nice. not game breaking but nice. gives him a bit more umph. i could be wrong. he was already in a pretty good spot depending on lineup. this might push him over the edge. but arpen obviously unnessary on kassadin. 20 extra damage on autos at level 2/4 will definitely up his laning though imo
On June 22 2011 15:45 gtrsrs wrote: honestly i think that kass change will be nice. not game breaking but nice. gives him a bit more umph. i could be wrong. he was already in a pretty good spot depending on lineup. this might push him over the edge. but arpen obviously unnessary on kassadin. 20 extra damage on autos at level 2/4 will definitely up his laning though imo
I think with EU meta of double AP solo laners Kass should find a very strong position. His Q was always great against champs that relied on skills for harass and counter-harass. He just fell out of favor when the roaming meta with tanky dps solos took over. I think he should be a nice pick now imo.
His old passive was just retarded. But now, more dps for hitting shit. It'll help his last hitting a bit too if you level his W at 2 or 4. I still don't see it being leveled much until later levels tho.
Will you now go into melee range to auto with Kassadin? Because imo it's pretty obvious that you won't. They are making his W better every time they rework it (remember when it was passive and just stole % of max mana of it's target?) but the core design problem is that you're not going in to auto in melee with a ranged mage champion.
Tank Kassadin maybe, I don't know, but for the regular Cata - Deathcap mage build this skill still does nothing.
On June 22 2011 16:50 BluzMan wrote: Now please look at the numbers and ask yourself:
Will you now go into melee range to auto with Kassadin? Because imo it's pretty obvious that you won't. They are making his W better every time they rework it (remember when it was passive and just stole % of max mana of it's target?) but the core design problem is that you're not going in to auto in melee with a ranged mage champion.
Tank Kassadin maybe, I don't know, but for the regular Cata - Deathcap mage build this skill still does nothing.
Well I remember when I used to play Kassadin you'd sometimes get 1-2 autos off on your target when you riftwalk in for you Q-E combo. With new W you'd get in a bit more damage.
It won't do much, but it's better than apen at the very least. Helps for lane sustain too, but philos are still pretty strong so iunno.
On June 22 2011 16:50 BluzMan wrote: Now please look at the numbers and ask yourself:
Will you now go into melee range to auto with Kassadin? Because imo it's pretty obvious that you won't. They are making his W better every time they rework it (remember when it was passive and just stole % of max mana of it's target?) but the core design problem is that you're not going in to auto in melee with a ranged mage champion.
Tank Kassadin maybe, I don't know, but for the regular Cata - Deathcap mage build this skill still does nothing.
Well I remember when I used to play Kassadin you'd sometimes get 1-2 autos off on your target when you riftwalk in for you Q-E combo. With new W you'd get in a bit more damage.
It won't do much, but it's better than apen at the very least. Helps for lane sustain too, but philos are still pretty strong so iunno.
For early game harassment it seems to be actually quite good. The only issue now becomes leveling order. Do you still level up Q for harass or do you put some more points in W now? Maxing E to clear lanes depending on the matchup would probably be the same.
On June 22 2011 16:50 BluzMan wrote: Now please look at the numbers and ask yourself:
Will you now go into melee range to auto with Kassadin? Because imo it's pretty obvious that you won't. They are making his W better every time they rework it (remember when it was passive and just stole % of max mana of it's target?) but the core design problem is that you're not going in to auto in melee with a ranged mage champion.
Tank Kassadin maybe, I don't know, but for the regular Cata - Deathcap mage build this skill still does nothing.
lol you definitely go into melee range with kassadin during laning throw on 20 magic damage to my autos (half a wit's end and it restores mana yes please) at level 2, combined with a .15 AP ratio for that early NLR, and yes, i'm going to be pretty fking aggressive with kassadin's auto attacks. you already can't run from him thanks to E, you can't use skills on him thanks to Q, and now you can't afford to stand and fight thanks to W. definitely a good buff to his laning.
On June 22 2011 16:50 BluzMan wrote: Now please look at the numbers and ask yourself:
Will you now go into melee range to auto with Kassadin? Because imo it's pretty obvious that you won't. They are making his W better every time they rework it (remember when it was passive and just stole % of max mana of it's target?) but the core design problem is that you're not going in to auto in melee with a ranged mage champion.
Tank Kassadin maybe, I don't know, but for the regular Cata - Deathcap mage build this skill still does nothing.
lol you definitely go into melee range with kassadin during laning throw on 20 magic damage to my autos (half a wit's end and it restores mana yes please) at level 2, combined with a .15 AP ratio for that early NLR, and yes, i'm going to be pretty fking aggressive with kassadin's auto attacks. you already can't run from him thanks to E, you can't use skills on him thanks to Q, and now you can't afford to stand and fight thanks to W. definitely a good buff to his laning.
^This exactly The addition to the mana restoration on early levels is a big help too imo. It's like every wave you get ~30-40 mana back if you last hit them all with autos. Fuck yes. That's double what you used to get, and you're only going to put 1 point into it anyway. His q and e are still his bread and butter.
On June 22 2011 16:50 BluzMan wrote: Now please look at the numbers and ask yourself:
Will you now go into melee range to auto with Kassadin? Because imo it's pretty obvious that you won't. They are making his W better every time they rework it (remember when it was passive and just stole % of max mana of it's target?) but the core design problem is that you're not going in to auto in melee with a ranged mage champion.
Tank Kassadin maybe, I don't know, but for the regular Cata - Deathcap mage build this skill still does nothing.
lol you definitely go into melee range with kassadin during laning throw on 20 magic damage to my autos (half a wit's end and it restores mana yes please) at level 2, combined with a .15 AP ratio for that early NLR, and yes, i'm going to be pretty fking aggressive with kassadin's auto attacks. you already can't run from him thanks to E, you can't use skills on him thanks to Q, and now you can't afford to stand and fight thanks to W. definitely a good buff to his laning.
^This exactly The addition to the mana restoration on early levels is a big help too imo. It's like every wave you get ~30-40 mana back if you last hit them all with autos. Fuck yes. That's double what you used to get, and you're only going to put 1 point into it anyway. His q and e are still his bread and butter.
So you're thinking it'll probably still go Q-W/E-Q-E/W-Q-R into R>E>Q>W?
I don't wanna be definitive 'til I can play him, but if you go something like Q-W-W-E-W you could be doing some pretty damn good damage to melee solo laners...Obviously, his burst potential will be much lower, but laning should be a lot stronger.
On June 22 2011 16:50 BluzMan wrote: Now please look at the numbers and ask yourself:
Will you now go into melee range to auto with Kassadin? Because imo it's pretty obvious that you won't. They are making his W better every time they rework it (remember when it was passive and just stole % of max mana of it's target?) but the core design problem is that you're not going in to auto in melee with a ranged mage champion.
Tank Kassadin maybe, I don't know, but for the regular Cata - Deathcap mage build this skill still does nothing.
lol you definitely go into melee range with kassadin during laning throw on 20 magic damage to my autos (half a wit's end and it restores mana yes please) at level 2, combined with a .15 AP ratio for that early NLR, and yes, i'm going to be pretty fking aggressive with kassadin's auto attacks. you already can't run from him thanks to E, you can't use skills on him thanks to Q, and now you can't afford to stand and fight thanks to W. definitely a good buff to his laning.
Lol screw laning. Getting this skill high during laning means you don't level E and make your teamfight presence even worse. So, if you go for a caster build and take early levels of W, in the first fights you're basically going to act as a teleporting silence bot and still won't be able to auto unless you like being instagibbed. If you take W last, well, nothing changes because that's exactly what you've been doing with pre-patch Kassadin. It's nice as a 1-point wonder, but I don't see anyone leveling W before E with an AP build.
If you build tanky, this might work, but don't forget that it's only 5 seconds which probably means around 3-4 autoattacks, not that good. Tank Kassadin has been borderline viable lately, but I don't have enough experience with it to tell if it's gonna become good.
EDIT: I've played a few games of Kassadin after the E nerf (I used to main Kassadin before that) and he just didn't work. His E was the only thing that made him viable outside of assassin role and after it's nerf he became just a glorified version of LeBlanc that teleports more often but deals less damage, and with a crappy laning phase. I don't see AP Kassadin working well atm, and I don't see it working with the W remake.
I don't think he's saying to actually lvl w past lvl 1 during laning, just that it will give Kass more damage overall in laning with lvl 1 w. lvling w past lvl 1 is still moronic. You need your nukes to be at their highest lvl by midgame.
I left kassadin alone since a longer time until now. He was my favorite and best champ a while ago.
Now I'am picking him up again and I try to figure out a new build on him that works well with his new skill.
Leveling: R>E>Q>W with 1 level W at the time i feel i can be more aggressive with spam and engagements.
I get E over Q because: 1. its an AoE 2. the damage gain/level is higher Q's 3. the cooldown is lower than Q's and when the teamfights start you have the stacks up all the times anyways.
runes+masteries would be 0/9/21 with SoS and mpen,manareg/lvl,cdr/lvl,mpen
items currently are:
1. roa because he needs mana and he explodes too fast with just AA. His W, E and R are all close range spells so he actually needs the HP more than anything else. 2. deathcap because he has insane ap ratios (consider the W 0.15 is actually alot because you hit 4-5 times without AS items) 3. mercs because disables are his worst enemy 4. nashors tooth (i get fiendish before dcap actually)
and from then on the standard stuff like voidstaff etc.
Why I find nashors good on him? I allways had the opinion that cdr is soooo good on him and with this build your ~capped at lvl 18 and have good cdr midgame. the manareg is never wrong on kass and the attackspeed can possibly increase his damage quite alot (I'am not yet sure though).
The Idea is that with the lower cds you have W allways up when you can use it and have higher utility through your disables being spammed more. Also R works very well with cdr because you can get away with more aggressive stuff like that. the attackspeed on it basicly means that his W is 50% stronger.
On July 19 2011 21:34 clickrush wrote: I get E over Q because: 1. its an AoE 2. the damage gain/level is higher Q's 3. the cooldown is lower than Q's and when the teamfights start you have the stacks up all the times anyways.
While all these are true, good luck not getting forced out of lane when your Q is rank 1 at level 4. Any half-decent laner can bully the shit out of you when they know your Q is weak and your E isn't charged.
On July 19 2011 21:34 clickrush wrote: 4. nashors tooth (i get fiendish before dcap actually)
No.
Why do people feel the need to buy CDR on mana-using AP carries? Get blue buff like you're supposed to and stop itemizing a cost-ineffective stat.
On July 19 2011 21:34 clickrush wrote: I get E over Q because: 1. its an AoE 2. the damage gain/level is higher Q's 3. the cooldown is lower than Q's and when the teamfights start you have the stacks up all the times anyways.
While all these are true, good luck not getting forced out of lane when your Q is rank 1 at level 4. Any half-decent laner can bully the shit out of you when they know your Q is weak and your E isn't charged.
I'm just gonna put it out there that CDR isn't that great on Kass. His E ability is dependant upon the champs around him and his ult demands way too much mana if it is spammed. That's why blue is so great, because the regen allows you to spam due to increased mana and cdr. As for blue on other AP carries, i have no clue. I get about 15 % from runes alone and I'm never a stickler for getting 40 percent. I'm usually happy anywheres between 25 and 40.
On July 19 2011 22:33 clickrush wrote: well I cannot allways have blue up can I.
No, but that doesn't suddenly make buying 25% CDR a good idea when you only benefit from it 1/3 of the time.
i dont understand how you do not profit 100% of the time? On my build i swapped cdr/lvl blues into ap/lvl to calculate in blue. you only have bluebuff for a fraction of the time since it needs time to get it, its not allways up, it can be lost and you have to protect the golems as well.
mb when I'am playing with a strong jungler mate then I can consider getting sth else. but atm nashors seems a good idea. still have to test it though. I ended most games very quickly where I tried this.
Even if the 25% CDR was good on Kassadin, Nashor's straight up is BAD on him. The 50% AS is completely wasted, there goes ~1300 gold. Better CDR items on Kass would be Morello's, DFG, Kindlegem/Shurelia's. Still not really anything you would want too desperately. The BEST CDR item on Kassadin is Blue Elixier.
On July 19 2011 23:04 [Agony]x90 wrote: I'm just gonna put it out there that CDR isn't that great on Kass. His E ability is dependant upon the champs around him and his ult demands way too much mana if it is spammed. That's why blue is so great, because the regen allows you to spam due to increased mana and cdr. As for blue on other AP carries, i have no clue. I get about 15 % from runes alone and I'm never a stickler for getting 40 percent. I'm usually happy anywheres between 25 and 40.
Blue buff is 25%@18, so with that rune/mastery setup, you're hitting the cap nicely anyway.
On July 19 2011 22:33 clickrush wrote: well I cannot allways have blue up can I.
No, but that doesn't suddenly make buying 25% CDR a good idea when you only benefit from it 1/3 of the time.
i dont understand how you do not profit 100% of the time? On my build i swapped cdr/lvl blues into ap/lvl to calculate in blue. you only have bluebuff for a fraction of the time since it needs time to get it, its not allways up, it can be lost and you have to protect the golems as well.
mb when I'am playing with a strong jungler mate then I can consider getting sth else. but atm nashors seems a good idea. still have to test it though. I ended most games very quickly where I tried this.
Blue spawns every 5 minutes and lasts 3:15 with utility mastery. If you're getting it in a timely fashion, that means you have it 2/3 of the time, and during that time, your CDR is capped (or at least within a blue elixir of cap) without any items. The times where you lose blue buff/get it stolen should even out with the times where you stole it/killed the enemy blue holder.
ok last game my team consistently got me bluebuff. I finished the game with dcap AGAIN so I dont even know yet if the whole thing actually works out or not. nontheless, roa, mercs, dcap is pretty good.
but this time i felt alittle more W power because I reached lvl 16. His new W is pretty strong with that much ap you get around 100ish bonus damage. its basicly an additional nuke you can use when the situation allows it. but the more i think about it and read your posts the less I like the idea of boosting his AS at all. rageblade seems meh too because I'am not sure if kass keeps the stacks up without getting oom.
EPT
cept I go SS before boots 1, and zhonya before GA.
![[image loading]](http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1760359/kassalol.png)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/DNVhL.png)
![[image loading]](http://img856.imageshack.us/i/adkass.png/)
