Hello everyone, let's get right into this week's update!
Beta in general The game seems to be at a decent place now in terms of balance across all the skill levels currently within the beta. Our internal data is looking to be nearing 50% in all matchups of all skill levels, and looking at the feedback coming in both from the community side and the pro level side, the number of potential issues that we need to balance patch has greatly reduced as well.
It’s pretty clear that we’re slowing down on number of issues that come up in the beta, and we feel that having less and less things to tweak in game from week to week is definitely a good thing since we’re around 1 month away from release. We also reached out to various pro players regarding the small list of changes, and the general consensus we heard back was that the state of the game is pretty good right now + the small number of things we’re looking at for the next balance update looks to be in a good direction.
However, we’d like to point out once more that there will be a high chance that balance isn’t quite there yet at the pro level. Highest level pros generally don’t play in the beta as we’ve seen in both LotV and HotS betas, and we’ll just need to react accordingly post ship as potential issues come up. Although the balance at skill levels outside of the pro level is looking very good right now, we wanted to iterate that we’ll be paying very close attention to the pro level right after the game releases as professional gamers start playing the game for real.
Cyclone The Cyclone isn’t quite there yet even after the last patch, so we’ve been exploring various potential changes. Where we are at currently that we want to roll out to beta is higher damage on lock on and lower health on Cyclone themselves. Instead of having Cyclones as all round units, we’re having a lot more success with them as intense micro units that can potentially have big wins when lock on and the fast movement speed are used effectively. Please let us know your thoughts on these changes once the changes go to beta tomorrow.
Infestor We heard your feedback on wanting to hear thoughts on where we think Neural Parasite stands. Like you guys pointed out, we have discussed/explored replacing this ability, but due to the fantasy of having a mind control ability like this being such a cool factor, we were unable to locate an ability that feels just as powerful. Our current thought is that having changed the range back to 9 should have helped it see more play.
Theoretically, the ability should be a lot more powerful now since only siege ranged units can reach the Infestor, but because players haven’t really given the ability a serious try yet during the beta, we don’t quite know exactly where it stands. For example, if it’s the case that players just haven’t tried the unit (which looks to be the case right now), we don’t want to overbuff it. On the flip side, if it had been fully tested, and needs further buffs, we can make according changes.
A balance change such as this one, existing unit/existing ability numbers tuning, doesn’t necessarily have to be completely figured out during beta, and your call of focusing on more critical things such as new units, new abilities, new econ system, macro mechanics etc. does feel like it was the correct thing to do. We don’t think getting the numbers just right for this ability is one of the most critically important things we needed to solve during the beta, and we can work on this going forward even in the live game as well.
The other spells we belive are in a good place. Fungal Growth is situationally extremely powerful right now especially in combination with other abilities/units such as Blinding Cloud, the new Viper AoE damage ability, Banelings, Ultralisks, etc.
The main goal for the Infestor is not to have the unit see play in every single game of every matchup, but we want this caster to be powerful in specific strategies or scenarios.
Carrier We definitely hear your feedback on the new ability making Carriers very powerful in the late game, especially from the higher level players currently in the beta as well as from the KR community. While we do agree that Carriers do look powerful, we’d like to see if we can push this type of late game strength on Protoss a little bit without overreacting with heavy nerfs. Like you guys point out, we believe the new strength of Carriers come from 3 areas: being able to not lose the DPS as each Carrier falls due to the launch Interceptor ability, faster build time of Carriers in LotV that allows players to have a smaller window of weakness before Carriers are massed, and interceptor leashing changes.
We believe the first is the biggest contributing factor, since full DPS of all Carriers remain in combat for a long duration. And the third is arguably a buff and a nerf depending on what the Carrier is trying to do. Therefore, we’d like to revert the build time reduction change we did to Carriers for now, so that Carriers remain nearly as powerful as they are, but it is more of a risk to mass Carriers for Protoss players.
Disruptor issues We’d like to fix the bugs that allow the Disruptors to be moved while the damaging shot is active asap, because it could get in the way of beta testing this unit properly.
Adept This unit is another area that we’re keeping close tabs on, but we don’t have immediate balance changes for in tomorrow’s balance update. It’s initially looking like nerfing their health a second time in combination with the warp in nerfs may not have been necessary. We’ll be looking to tune up the stats on the Adept a bit if need be, so please give us your feedback and thoughts on the Adept as well. The current plan is to release another balance update tomorrow even though we only have a few changes because there aren’t as many issues as before, we don’t have a lot of time remaining with the beta, and we’d like to really focus down on fine tuning the game as best as we can before release. Thank you for your help as always, and please continue to play as many games of beta as possible so that we can work together towards a great release of LotV.
Another thing we'd like to mention is these are the areas we're currently looking at for next weeks' balance update: 1. PvZ lurker timing 2. Carrier strength after the build time nerfs 3. Siege tank drops in TvT 4. Potential revert to 10 shield nerf on Adept 5. Liberator anti ground range
The patch in the next few days will be interesting, seems like that will be the "last" before release (which makes sense i guess as it will hit like 19/20th october)
Yea David isn't massively out of touch with the state of the game or anything right? Lol what a total disappointment.
1. The Cyclone is just retarded plain and simple, it's not even OP it's just retarded design, theres a dude on here that started a Fix the Cyclone thread and he had a way better idea then what is presented here.
2. I would really like to see how Infestors are "situationally extremely powerful" because at this point it's a vulnerable high gas target with 3 low damage snares and unviable spells. There is never a moment in the beta where I would have rather had Infestors then all of the other good gas sinks that Zerg has to use, DK is either lazy or fearful to work on spell casters because they always either get shafted with nerfs and forgotten or just swept under the rug entirely. The Infestor was supposed to be reworked from the get go and then nothing? Wow lol, very impressive.
3. No talk still about the Liberators holding ground better then the Siege Tank whilst being able to effectively combat air units? Coming from the guy that touted "We removed/won't implement this unit in the game because it overlaps severely with other units" that is just a joke.
4. We're actually waiting until the Koreans abuse invincible Nydus before we patch it out? Okay..
5. Parasitic Bomb is pretty OP with 3/3 SkyZerg not sure why theres not even a discussion on it at least SkyZerg is hella powerful.
6. Swarm Host seeing absolutely zero usage is not a problem? Just remove the unit, Infestation Pit might as well be only to unlock Hive at this point, Infestor still sucks, Swarm Host probably unviable.
I know there are many more balance patches to come after the beta but these last couple of updates are just a flat out disappointment. Might as well just say we're done patching until the Koreans come in and deal with it and call it a day, at least SkyToss will get a nerf I guess.
Hmmm, not gonna look at lurkers or liberators? Is DK really thinking that we are going to have to go mass carrier always vs zerg? What about phoenix wars in pvp, disruptor wars in pvp... And this is only for protoss, I wonder if you add zerg and terran complaints im sure that this game is far from where it should be... Dont understand how Mr.Kim does nothing about Liberators and Lurkers after so much time and so many complaints...
Once again community feedback updates become a half façade of Blizzard saying "screw you, community", this is so disappointing, but after all, their team is directed by the man who had no idea about Infestor/BLord being a thing when everybody was crying out loud about it...
Our internal data is looking to be nearing 50% in all matchups of all skill levels
Is this the same internal data that said the game was balanced during the blink all-in era?
I think you're miss interpretating their words and wanting something else. It litterally just means, near 50% win ratios in all matchups.
They don't focus on about how that balance is achieved, or how fun/diverse/engaging the game is. As long as win ratios are around 50%, than it's balance.
What you want is something else. Something better than just balance.
Wait they are talking about BUFFING adepts? What the actual fuck? Warp prism + adept is still incredibly broken vs Terran and they havent even talked about warpprism...
But but but... we've already had two whole games of "Carriers are strong but nobody can build them safely" ;_; I really hope we don't end up with "Carriers are even stronger! But still nobody can build them safely". We don't even have old-chronoboost anymore.
Our internal data is looking to be nearing 50% in all matchups of all skill levels
Is this the same internal data that said the game was balanced during the blink all-in era?
I think you're miss interpretating their words and wanting something else. It litterally just means, near 50% win ratios in all matchups.
They don't focus on about how that balance is achieved, or how fun/diverse/engaging the game is. As long as win ratios are around 50%, than it's balance.
Exactly.
So for example Protoss wins 100% with Adept cheese and loses 100% of macro games but the "balance" number is 50%. Like that.
Oh, and FUCK THE CARRIER CHANGE.
Seriously, with the chrono nerf they now take EVEN LONGER to make than they used to! What the fuck is this balancing team even doing??
Ugh I hate LotV so much so far. HotS had its flaws but it was fun and consistent. You could scout your opponent. There were proper counters to things....
On October 16 2015 03:07 Aquila- wrote: Wait they are talking about BUFFING adepts? What the actual fuck? Warp prism + adept is still incredibly broken vs Terran and they havent even talked about warpprism...
Adepts are hilariously weak at the moment. They're bad in the early game and useless in the later stages of the game - everyone is using stalkers and zealots instead and we all know how well they work against stimmed bio without tech unit support.
On October 16 2015 03:07 Aquila- wrote: Wait they are talking about BUFFING adepts? What the actual fuck? Warp prism + adept is still incredibly broken vs Terran and they havent even talked about warpprism...
lol yeah believe or not, adepts are not very good atm, except to snipe some workers
On October 16 2015 03:07 Aquila- wrote: Wait they are talking about BUFFING adepts? What the actual fuck? Warp prism + adept is still incredibly broken vs Terran and they havent even talked about warpprism...
Are you crazy? I'm rushing the adept upgrade and not even so the adept is good as a core unit against PvT.
"1. PvZ lurker timing 2. Carrier strength after the build time nerfs 3. Siege tank drops in TvT 4. Potential revert to 10 shield nerf on Adept 5. Liberator anti ground range"
Then the game is just HOTS + adept cheese.
//I stand by calling it cheese because adepts are bad in 120 supply mid game trades but super strong at worker/warprism cheese plays
Of all of the goals with LotV, I really had high hopes of more skirmishes and less deathball fights. I can't say that goal has been accomplished. Harassment can be game ending and late game fights can easily end faster than they did in hots, due to the new units/spells. Units die so fast, I almost feel like there is zero strategy once the fighting starts, it's too late. You either have the better position/units going in or you don't, at least that's how it feels to me.
I guess it's time to accept the game for what it is. I still have fun and I suppose as a fan I always want more, whether it's needed or not.
On October 16 2015 03:30 Charoisaur wrote: Community: the game is far from being ready for release. DK: Don't worry. Our internal testings say the game is in a good state.
On October 16 2015 03:30 Charoisaur wrote: Community: the game is far from being ready for release. DK: Don't worry. Our internal testings say the game is in a good state.
I fear for the future of sc2.
this
The first few tournaments will be about balancing the game and some players will be rewarded for showing whats really broken.
On October 16 2015 03:30 Charoisaur wrote: Community: the game is far from being ready for release. DK: Don't worry. Our internal testings say the game is in a good state.
I fear for the future of sc2.
I'm going to say this one more time, you should really stop misinterpreting what they DK wrote.
Near 50% win ratio in all match ups literally means, near 50% win ratio in all match ups. As long as there exist 1 method to win a match 50% of the time in any match-up, at any skill level, than it is at 50%. To put it in their words, balanced.
It does not mean: good state, or most units are viable, or there are not strategies that feels unfun to play against, or fun or engaging game, or anything else for that matter.
So people please, stop acting like they are saying the game is in a good state. They're not saying that nor are they focusing on that.
"but due to the fantasy of having a mind control ability like this being such a cool factor, we were unable to locate an ability that feels just as powerful"
I don't understand why DK is so obsessed with unbeatable comps where the only counter is "don't let them get there" He notices a problem with carriers in lategame but instead of fixing the problem he just makes it harder for protoss to get there. Hasn't he learned from BL/infestor that this makes for terrible ggameplay? Winrates might be 50/50 but the game will be extremely stale and boring.
Also how can he not see a problem with parasitic bomb or ultras? You don't need statistics to realize how broken those are, even if winrates will be 50/50, having so overpowered things in the ggameis guaranteed to centralize the metagame to the point that every game will be zerg rushing to ultras or BL/viper.
I wouldn't call disruptor a hard counter, it's the only unit that allows protoss not to get completely obliterated by lurker actually, unless you go skytoss, more aching to a soft counter imo
On October 16 2015 03:30 Charoisaur wrote: Community: the game is far from being ready for release. DK: Don't worry. Our internal testings say the game is in a good state.
I fear for the future of sc2.
this
The first few tournaments will be about balancing the game and some players will be rewarded for showing whats really broken.
On October 16 2015 04:09 ROOTFayth wrote: I wouldn't call disruptor a hard counter, it's the only unit that allows protoss not to get completely obliterated by lurker actually, unless you go skytoss, more aching to a soft counter imo
5 Disruptors are enough to force the Zerg into tech switch
And its not fair because it cost alot of time to get lurkers out
The game seems to be at a decent place now in terms of balance across all the skill levels currently within the beta
I'm convinced that I have a near-zero understanding of this game. It feels so incredibly broken, atm, in both TvZ and TvP.
Therefore, we’d like to revert the build time reduction change we did to Carriers for now, so that Carriers remain nearly as powerful as they are, but it is more of a risk to mass Carriers for Protoss players
My hopes rose when they identified the problems, and then chose to nerf the build times ... ugh. So now Protoss will just play passive for slightly longer before they have an un-killable army composition?
We’ll be looking to tune up the stats on the Adept a bit if need be, so please give us your feedback and thoughts on the Adept as well.
I ate my shoe that the Adept is getting a buff. I now only have one shoe.
Crazy to me that Ultra, Parasitic Bomb, and Liberator were not in this patch. And I only mention the Liberator because apparently Liberators destroy everyone except my opponents. So I guess they must be OP ...
I don't know why they even talk about balance, there is plenty big design problems. No point in talking about balance before those are solved (unless there are huge balance problems making testing design impossible). Carrier build time is just pushing problems back. Waiting until people start using swarmhosts and infestors is pointless. Blizzard used to buff units and scale back if necessary, now they don't. It's probably just an excuse for not doing anything.
Therefore, we’d like to revert the build time reduction change we did to Carriers for now, so that Carriers remain nearly as powerful as they are, but it is more of a risk to mass Carriers for Protoss players
My hopes rose when they identified the problems, and then chose to nerf the build times ... ugh. So now Protoss will just play passive for slightly longer before they have an un-killable army composition?
We’ll be looking to tune up the stats on the Adept a bit if need be, so please give us your feedback and thoughts on the Adept as well.
I ate my shoe that the Adept is getting a buff. I now only have one shoe.
Crazy to me that Ultra, Parasitic Bomb, and Liberator were not in this patch. And I only mention the Liberator because apparently Liberators destroy everyone except my opponents. So I guess they must be OP ...
Was going mass carriers and Liberators killed all my interceptors in 2 seconds.
I honestly don't know what Zerg does against Liberator/Cyclone/Hellion.
The game seems to be at a decent place now in terms of balance across all the skill levels currently within the beta
I'm convinced that I have a near-zero understanding of this game. It feels so incredibly broken, atm, in both TvZ and TvP.
Therefore, we’d like to revert the build time reduction change we did to Carriers for now, so that Carriers remain nearly as powerful as they are, but it is more of a risk to mass Carriers for Protoss players
My hopes rose when they identified the problems, and then chose to nerf the build times ... ugh. So now Protoss will just play passive for slightly longer before they have an un-killable army composition?
We’ll be looking to tune up the stats on the Adept a bit if need be, so please give us your feedback and thoughts on the Adept as well.
I ate my shoe that the Adept is getting a buff. I now only have one shoe.
Crazy to me that Ultra, Parasitic Bomb, and Liberator were not in this patch. And I only mention the Liberator because apparently Liberators destroy everyone except my opponents. So I guess they must be OP ...
Was going mass carriers and Liberators killed all my interceptors in 2 seconds.
I honestly don't know what Zerg does against Liberator/Cyclone/Hellion.
Adepts are way too weak without the Prism and way too strong with the Prism against Terran. The main problem with Lotv is the timing of the units coming out. Sometimes its impossible to scout and react accordingly in time. For example if 30 roaches or 15 mutas coming at you on the 5th minute... Also, because of the strength of Lurkers and Liberators Protoss players seem to go mass air from the beginning, which is broken once again, there is a small timing window for Terrans and Zergs, but then they will lose every single game, because of the strength of the Carriers. Please have a look at these issues ASAP
Man, my knee is really jerking right now. Weirdest thing, maybe I should see a doctor.
On October 16 2015 03:21 Ctone23 wrote: Harassment can be game ending
This is mostly what I'm worried about. Harassment is so much more effective than it was in HotS in the early game, and the game is so volatile in its current state that it's hard to scout exactly what kind of harass it is because they require different responses to defend effectively (though the volatility will die down in time).
Aside from that and a few other things, I'm okay with the beta right now. Having a lot more fun than I was with Heart of the Snore.
The game seems to be at a decent place now in terms of balance across all the skill levels currently within the beta
I'm convinced that I have a near-zero understanding of this game. It feels so incredibly broken, atm, in both TvZ and TvP.
Therefore, we’d like to revert the build time reduction change we did to Carriers for now, so that Carriers remain nearly as powerful as they are, but it is more of a risk to mass Carriers for Protoss players
My hopes rose when they identified the problems, and then chose to nerf the build times ... ugh. So now Protoss will just play passive for slightly longer before they have an un-killable army composition?
We’ll be looking to tune up the stats on the Adept a bit if need be, so please give us your feedback and thoughts on the Adept as well.
I ate my shoe that the Adept is getting a buff. I now only have one shoe.
Crazy to me that Ultra, Parasitic Bomb, and Liberator were not in this patch. And I only mention the Liberator because apparently Liberators destroy everyone except my opponents. So I guess they must be OP ...
Was going mass carriers and Liberators killed all my interceptors in 2 seconds.
I honestly don't know what Zerg does against Liberator/Cyclone/Hellion.
Can we all just agree to play HotS?
I'm not even kidding, please give me a replay. This just doesn't happen in real life ... I mean, did the Liberators get the perfect shot at the exact moment the interceptors were being released? Once they are out, flying around insanely fast, they are too spread out for the splash to be effective, in my experience.
On October 16 2015 03:07 Aquila- wrote: Wait they are talking about BUFFING adepts? What the actual fuck? Warp prism + adept is still incredibly broken vs Terran and they havent even talked about warpprism...
Adepts are hilariously weak at the moment. They're bad in the early game and useless in the later stages of the game - everyone is using stalkers and zealots instead and we all know how well they work against stimmed bio without tech unit support.
Adepts are quite good during very early game, I don't even need to mention (for PvT) the very early natural mining denial capability (mostly due to adept's big health pool + high dps + innate spell); why use stalkers when you have a far better option?! Then there's the full warp prism + 4-6+ warp gates backed adept harass, again, this hits quite early too, and usually it can wreak havoc if terran is slightly out of position (trying to drop for example), or, for whatever reason not having a proper mineral line defense (oO). Also, I don't even want to think about the upgrade ... Anyway, if properly played , adepts can cause terran a very serious economical setback , to the point where you only need to mass adepts during mid game and still be in a good shape (aka win the game) This is only for PvT , for PvZ it doesn't matter since queens are so good at everything. All in all, adepts are hilariously good at this moment, to the point where Warhounds, in retrospect, were just little silly toys.
The game seems to be at a decent place now in terms of balance across all the skill levels currently within the beta
I'm convinced that I have a near-zero understanding of this game. It feels so incredibly broken, atm, in both TvZ and TvP.
Therefore, we’d like to revert the build time reduction change we did to Carriers for now, so that Carriers remain nearly as powerful as they are, but it is more of a risk to mass Carriers for Protoss players
My hopes rose when they identified the problems, and then chose to nerf the build times ... ugh. So now Protoss will just play passive for slightly longer before they have an un-killable army composition?
We’ll be looking to tune up the stats on the Adept a bit if need be, so please give us your feedback and thoughts on the Adept as well.
I ate my shoe that the Adept is getting a buff. I now only have one shoe.
Crazy to me that Ultra, Parasitic Bomb, and Liberator were not in this patch. And I only mention the Liberator because apparently Liberators destroy everyone except my opponents. So I guess they must be OP ...
Was going mass carriers and Liberators killed all my interceptors in 2 seconds.
I honestly don't know what Zerg does against Liberator/Cyclone/Hellion.
Can we all just agree to play HotS?
If you guys could also agree to not spam the LotV forum with questionable complaints I'd like. Too much salt.
On October 16 2015 04:47 91matt wrote: so there just leaving photon overcharge the way it is, it's a joke in pvz protoss can take a third with no risk.
On October 16 2015 03:11 Tiaraju9 wrote: Reverting the carrier build time is 10/10 change. With this nerf those silly three base carrier builds are dead.
Yeah man those ridiculous 65 probe carrier transitions
Agree everytime he goes into detail on the units. I think Infested Terran is the one bad/boring Infestor spell atm, not Neural. Also feel like there are so many areas in the game that needs fixing, yet he mostly always talk about the same stuff.
What is the current Carrier build time in LotV? I feel like they shouldn't go 100% back to HotS build time, if they tinker with other stats on the Carrier.
On October 16 2015 04:52 ejozl wrote: Agree everytime he goes into detail on the units. I think Infested Terran is the one bad/boring Infestor spell atm, not Neural. Also feel like there are so many areas in the game that needs fixing, yet he mostly always talk about the same stuff.
What is the current Carrier build time in LotV? I feel like they shouldn't go 100% back to HotS build time, if they tinker with other stats on the Carrier.
The problem with the carrier is photon overcharge, protoss can defend everything on 3 bases with no risk because of the MSC while teching to carrier. In pvz anyway.
I'm not even kidding, please give me a replay. This just doesn't happen in real life ... I mean, did the Liberators get the perfect shot at the exact moment the interceptors were being released? Once they are out, flying around insanely fast, they are too spread out for the splash to be effective, in my experience.
try it yourself in an unit tester : 1 - make siege tanks or w/e unit that don't shoot air 2 - make a random number of carriers (let's say 20) 3 - make 10-15 liberators ( depends number of carriers) 4 - a-move your carriers on the tanks so interceptors are "flying around" like you said 4.5 - wait a bit 5 - a-move your liberators and see all interceptors die in 1-2 seconds
Lol why are they trolling so much when it comes to the infestor? All they need to do is increase the fungal projectile speed so that the spell becomes a bit more usefull but not so overpowered that we go back to mid 2012.,
2 - make a random number of carriers (let's say 20) 3 - make 10-15 liberators ( depends number of carriers)
Worth noting that 20 carriers is 120 supply (80% of toss army supply) and 15 liberators is 30 supply (20% of terran army supply) so you can use different numbers and still get vastly favorable results. Libs have always been surprisingly supply efficient
Reverting the carrier build time is 10/10 change
They're actually nerfing it to be way worse than ever (even though it was disproportionately slow vs every other high tech unit before) because chrono used to be 1.5x speed increase, now it's only 1.15x. Carrier was definately a unit that you would bank chrono for because building like 6 stargates and a fleet beacon on 3 nexii was always impractical.
On October 16 2015 03:58 Charoisaur wrote: I don't understand why DK is so obsessed with unbeatable comps where the only counter is "don't let them get there" He notices a problem with carriers in lategame but instead of fixing the problem he just makes it harder for protoss to get there.
Probably because throughout the various phases of BW meta, there were many compositions similar to that, and it resulted in very fun matchups and innovation in strategies.
For example, the days when if Terran did not stop Zerg before getting Ultras + Dark Swarm it was GG.
WTF is wrong with this community?...All this negativity is so fucking disgusting...IT"S BETA!!!!!!!!! THEY CANNOT CHANGE EVERYTHING AT ONCE!!! for all the whiners : Please read some fucking materials on root cause analysis and project management and you'll see that in order to level(balance) something, anything,..... you have to make small tweaks with a concept known as PDCA and then repeat the same thing until you have achieved your desired level of service and quality. People relax,...... Blizzard is not the best company in the world for this kind of shit , but they know what they are doing, so do give them some credit and support. LotV will be fantastic!!!! ...... probably after 1-2 patches after the launch date....which is quite good IMO.
For example, the days when if Terran did not stop Zerg before getting Ultras + Dark Swarm it was GG.
Terran would transition into mech as a resposponse.
Liberators and Ghost is very powerfull vs ultralisk. People just want MMM for days cuz its easy as hell
Why siege up our take position in a game?
When you can a-move and stim or doom drop. Scan and pre-split while burrowing WM
Transitioning into mech with all the upgrades and production facilities is bit unrealistic is it? Full production of mech requires 5-7 factories and they all cost 150/100, not o mention armory upgrades and individual upgradfes as well as needing to get critical number o fmech units
add to that strength of BL/viper that destroys mech composition makes it unworthwhile.
Face it, Bio and Mech right now is at their strongest in midgame and is poor lategame.
On October 16 2015 03:07 Aquila- wrote: Wait they are talking about BUFFING adepts? What the actual fuck? Warp prism + adept is still incredibly broken vs Terran and they havent even talked about warpprism...
Adepts are hilariously weak at the moment. They're bad in the early game and useless in the later stages of the game - everyone is using stalkers and zealots instead and we all know how well they work against stimmed bio without tech unit support.
Adepts are quite good during very early game, I don't even need to mention (for PvT) the very early natural mining denial capability (mostly due to adept's big health pool + high dps + innate spell); why use stalkers when you have a far better option?! Then there's the full warp prism + 4-6+ warp gates backed adept harass, again, this hits quite early too, and usually it can wreak havoc if terran is slightly out of position (trying to drop for example), or, for whatever reason not having a proper mineral line defense (oO). Also, I don't even want to think about the upgrade ... Anyway, if properly played , adepts can cause terran a very serious economical setback , to the point where you only need to mass adepts during mid game and still be in a good shape (aka win the game) This is only for PvT , for PvZ it doesn't matter since queens are so good at everything. All in all, adepts are hilariously good at this moment, to the point where Warhounds, in retrospect, were just little silly toys.
Actually most people ARE using the stalker. Adepts do not have high HP atm. Its less than a stalker. They also only have decent dps vs light. No one is 'massing' adepts in the midgame, they aren't hilariously good at all. Better than warhounds? Mate do you even play the game? Every time things get nerfed it takes like 2 months before these people who complain about shit and seemily haven't even played the new patch to realise the meta has shifted.
They could nerf it to 50/50 and you'd probably still whine about it.
1. Broodlord/viper is absolutely broken. Parasitic bomb is uncounterable when the Zerg "gets there." I know because i've played a lot of Zerg in beta and when you "get there" you freewin.
2. Carriers are OP. Their new ability needs to be removed as well.
3. Liberators also are pretty OP. Needs a tweak but NOT A BLIZZARD "make this unit useless now" tweak. Afraid to say anything in regards to nerfing Terran units because blizzard will overdo it to the point the unit is trash as always.
4. Cyclones too weak versus air, too little range versus tier 2/3 air. Too expensive supply/gas/minerals. Unit is basically been nerfed into oblivion. Needs adjustments.
5. Invincible nydus worm is still not addressed at all. There should not be something like this in the game that has zero counter play even though you spot it right as it's spawned in the center of your base. Why is this still in the game? Inexcusable.
6. Adepts are still broken, will always be broken. Too cheap, available early on, has perma stimpack upgrade, and is just simply a better zealot. Do not revert any nerfs on this god forsaken unit.
7. Macro mechanic revert please. Mules, larva, chrono all back to not sucking. Thanks.
8. To re-iterate, every race has air units that are too powerful and ironically due to the economy in LOTV games boil down to whoever masses their air units before the other guy because liberator/carriers/viper+brood beat every single ground comp from every race.
9. Why are blizzard not mentioning or tweaking the above things mentioned? Why do community members/streamers/progamers need to point these things out to get them on blizzard's radar? It's inexcusable to have invincible nydus worms with no counter play in SC2. Please...there are obvious issues with SC2, why are there no changes being thrown out for these things?
At this point, the only tweak I'm interested in is changing the release date from 2015 to 2016. The game sounds so far from being finished and these small tweaks sound like a college kid moving all their trash under their bed for a parental visit.
On October 16 2015 06:21 avilo wrote: 1. Broodlord/viper is absolutely broken. Parasitic bomb is uncounterable when the Zerg "gets there." I know because i've played a lot of Zerg in beta and when you "get there" you freewin.
2. Carriers are OP. Their new ability needs to be removed as well.
3. Liberators also are pretty OP. Needs a tweak but NOT A BLIZZARD "make this unit useless now" tweak. Afraid to say anything in regards to nerfing Terran units because blizzard will overdo it to the point the unit is trash as always.
4. Cyclones too weak versus air, too little range versus tier 2/3 air. Too expensive supply/gas/minerals. Unit is basically been nerfed into oblivion. Needs adjustments.
5. Invincible nydus worm is still not addressed at all. There should not be something like this in the game that has zero counter play even though you spot it right as it's spawned in the center of your base. Why is this still in the game? Inexcusable.
6. Adepts are still broken, will always be broken. Too cheap, available early on, has perma stimpack upgrade, and is just simply a better zealot. Do not revert any nerfs on this god forsaken unit.
7. Macro mechanic revert please. Mules, larva, chrono all back to not sucking. Thanks.
8. To re-iterate, every race has air units that are too powerful and ironically due to the economy in LOTV games boil down to whoever masses their air units before the other guy because liberator/carriers/viper+brood beat every single ground comp from every race.
9. Why are blizzard not mentioning or tweaking the above things mentioned? Why do community members/streamers/progamers need to point these things out to get them on blizzard's radar? It's inexcusable to have invincible nydus worms with no counter play in SC2. Please...there are obvious issues with SC2, why are there no changes being thrown out for these things?
i know avilo has a reputation of being very biased but in this case he is 100% spot on and I agree 100%.
On October 16 2015 06:30 andrewlt wrote: At this point, the only tweak I'm interested in is changing the release date from 2015 to 2016. The game sounds so far from being finished and these small tweaks sound like a college kid moving all their trash under their bed for a parental visit.
Considering how the beta went so far I doubt changing the release date would make the game any better. Especially because DK seems to be very happy with the current state of the game.
I'm losing hope for the Cyclone. This unit should be an anti-air long range specialist. The current design will remain shit forever, and the lock-on concept just sucks -not to mention how ugly it looks in game, dots everywhere.
Shorter build time for the carriers actually made them playable, and I'm unsure that was a bad thing. Such an iconic unit. The bad thing was more the release interceptors ability if you ask me. And of course, they want to keep that. Sin of pride.
No comment on CB, but I hope they come back to their senses and use HotS version.
Pretty bland update overall, seems like we're really gonna get a sucky game at release.
On October 16 2015 06:21 avilo wrote: 1. Broodlord/viper is absolutely broken. Parasitic bomb is uncounterable when the Zerg "gets there." I know because i've played a lot of Zerg in beta and when you "get there" you freewin.
2. Carriers are OP. Their new ability needs to be removed as well.
3. Liberators also are pretty OP. Needs a tweak but NOT A BLIZZARD "make this unit useless now" tweak. Afraid to say anything in regards to nerfing Terran units because blizzard will overdo it to the point the unit is trash as always.
4. Cyclones too weak versus air, too little range versus tier 2/3 air. Too expensive supply/gas/minerals. Unit is basically been nerfed into oblivion. Needs adjustments.
5. Invincible nydus worm is still not addressed at all. There should not be something like this in the game that has zero counter play even though you spot it right as it's spawned in the center of your base. Why is this still in the game? Inexcusable.
6. Adepts are still broken, will always be broken. Too cheap, available early on, has perma stimpack upgrade, and is just simply a better zealot. Do not revert any nerfs on this god forsaken unit.
7. Macro mechanic revert please. Mules, larva, chrono all back to not sucking. Thanks.
8. To re-iterate, every race has air units that are too powerful and ironically due to the economy in LOTV games boil down to whoever masses their air units before the other guy because liberator/carriers/viper+brood beat every single ground comp from every race.
9. Why are blizzard not mentioning or tweaking the above things mentioned? Why do community members/streamers/progamers need to point these things out to get them on blizzard's radar? It's inexcusable to have invincible nydus worms with no counter play in SC2. Please...there are obvious issues with SC2, why are there no changes being thrown out for these things?
i know avilo has a reputation of being very biased but in this case he is 100% spot on and I agree 100%.
wow yeah, I actually agree with every single point. Especially on the Nydus thing, the fact this issue is still not adressed is plain ridiculous.
I really thought that the "balance phase" would address more units in general (maybe even revisit old units) Still very disappointed about this whole beta phase, it could have been amazing if they actually did what they promised at the beginning of it. But they really did not, they didn't really test a lot of big changes and they also didn't really try to balance the game around the new map layout/macro changes. I really hope they will announce big things at blizzcon :/
On October 16 2015 07:03 The_Red_Viper wrote: I really thought that the "balance phase" would address more units in general (maybe even revisit old units) Still very disappointed about this whole beta phase, it could have been amazing if they actually did what they promised at the beginning of it. But they really did not, they didn't really test a lot of big changes and they also didn't really try to balance the game around the new map layout/macro changes. I really hope they will announce big things at blizzcon :/
I feel like this beta is a long story of missed opportunities and wasted time. Removing macro mechanics altogether would have suited the game well. Alas, they decided to test it halfway through the beta, basically making it impossible to succeed. At the same time, they remained stubborn on their worst ideas. I don't like the end result atm, and I'm quite sure I won't like it at release. Don't get me wrong, I'll buy the game, and it'll be infinitely better than any other competitive game to my mind. But I think it's a huge downgrade from HotS.
Where can we actually leave feedback that we know that they'll read? I really doubt they're reading these comments on here as most of them are just random cries.
I'd like to give them serious feedback about each and every unit - how do I do that?
On October 16 2015 07:03 The_Red_Viper wrote: I really thought that the "balance phase" would address more units in general (maybe even revisit old units) Still very disappointed about this whole beta phase, it could have been amazing if they actually did what they promised at the beginning of it. But they really did not, they didn't really test a lot of big changes and they also didn't really try to balance the game around the new map layout/macro changes. I really hope they will announce big things at blizzcon :/
I feel like this beta is a long story of missed opportunities and wasted time. Removing macro mechanics altogether would have suited the game well. Alas, they decided to test it halfway through the beta, basically making it impossible to succeed. At the same time, they remained stubborn on their worst ideas. I don't like the end result atm, and I'm quite sure I won't like it at release. Don't get me wrong, I'll buy the game, and it'll be infinitely better than any other competitive game to my mind. But I think it's a huge downgrade from HotS.
Wasted time, yes absolutely. I cannot believe that this apparently was the longest beta phase, i don't see what they did in all this time when i look at what actually was tested live on the server. But yeah, i obviously will also buy the game and keep watching, i simply love the korean sc2 scene way too much.
On October 16 2015 06:21 avilo wrote: 1. Broodlord/viper is absolutely broken. Parasitic bomb is uncounterable when the Zerg "gets there." I know because i've played a lot of Zerg in beta and when you "get there" you freewin.
2. Carriers are OP. Their new ability needs to be removed as well.
3. Liberators also are pretty OP. Needs a tweak but NOT A BLIZZARD "make this unit useless now" tweak. Afraid to say anything in regards to nerfing Terran units because blizzard will overdo it to the point the unit is trash as always.
4. Cyclones too weak versus air, too little range versus tier 2/3 air. Too expensive supply/gas/minerals. Unit is basically been nerfed into oblivion. Needs adjustments.
5. Invincible nydus worm is still not addressed at all. There should not be something like this in the game that has zero counter play even though you spot it right as it's spawned in the center of your base. Why is this still in the game? Inexcusable.
6. Adepts are still broken, will always be broken. Too cheap, available early on, has perma stimpack upgrade, and is just simply a better zealot. Do not revert any nerfs on this god forsaken unit.
7. Macro mechanic revert please. Mules, larva, chrono all back to not sucking. Thanks.
8. To re-iterate, every race has air units that are too powerful and ironically due to the economy in LOTV games boil down to whoever masses their air units before the other guy because liberator/carriers/viper+brood beat every single ground comp from every race.
9. Why are blizzard not mentioning or tweaking the above things mentioned? Why do community members/streamers/progamers need to point these things out to get them on blizzard's radar? It's inexcusable to have invincible nydus worms with no counter play in SC2. Please...there are obvious issues with SC2, why are there no changes being thrown out for these things?
i know avilo has a reputation of being very biased but in this case he is 100% spot on and I agree 100%.
wow yeah, I actually agree with every single point. Especially on the Nydus thing, the fact this issue is still not adressed is plain ridiculous.
I don't understand how you can agree with what he's saying. it's hardly constructive feedback. I agree that the nydus worm needs a change, but the rest is just a rant about what he thinks is powerful. Let's remember that Avilo thinks ANYTHING is too powerful if he loses to it.
He is correct about the nydus worm though, there should be a counter play to it for sure.
I've grown to hate these community updates and would rather just get patch notes. Instead of offering real insight into how they are thinking and the changes they are making all it offers is a look at head scratching decisions and massing hypocritical comments. They are so inconsistent all the time it is unreal, if you put these community updates all together and read them you can tell they have no idea what they are trying to accomplish with the game and what the real goal is. Are they trying to make it casual friendlier or more micro intense? Are they trying to make games longer or shorter? Are they trying to encourage shorter engagements or longer engagements? Each patch changes the story of what they are trying to do and these updates don't clarify the thought process they only cloud that process even more.
Also, I hate the way these are written in a such a casual and non-professional way. It wreaks of that high school teacher that is trying to fit in with the kids and act cool by wearing his leather jacket to school. All the kids are doing is laughing at him and would just prefer a teacher that acted professional. I get the same vibe with these things.
They read like, "hey bro tested some stuff out heard your comments and all and that was really cool that you gave us some feedback we pretty much totally awesomely ignored it and will just do what we want but we are going to pretend to care and chill out bro etc. etc."
Seriously how many times have they said in these community updates, "We heard your feedback..." and I know it is going to be followed by a change that HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT FEEDBACK. I was hopeful that these community updates would give real evidence for why they make changes, but it never is. It is always vague things like, "in our internal testing.." or "our data suggests..." but you never get any real examples of either that make you think they are working with anything that matters.
TL;DR : Stop pretending to be our friend. Stop pretending to care about our feedback. Stop putting out these lame community updates as a half-ass attempt to connect with your audience, and just make a fun game. These have been worthless.
On October 16 2015 03:07 Aquila- wrote: Wait they are talking about BUFFING adepts? What the actual fuck? Warp prism + adept is still incredibly broken vs Terran and they havent even talked about warpprism...
Adepts are hilariously weak at the moment. They're bad in the early game and useless in the later stages of the game - everyone is using stalkers and zealots instead and we all know how well they work against stimmed bio without tech unit support.
Adepts are quite good during very early game, I don't even need to mention (for PvT) the very early natural mining denial capability (mostly due to adept's big health pool + high dps + innate spell); why use stalkers when you have a far better option?! Then there's the full warp prism + 4-6+ warp gates backed adept harass, again, this hits quite early too, and usually it can wreak havoc if terran is slightly out of position (trying to drop for example), or, for whatever reason not having a proper mineral line defense (oO). Also, I don't even want to think about the upgrade ... Anyway, if properly played , adepts can cause terran a very serious economical setback , to the point where you only need to mass adepts during mid game and still be in a good shape (aka win the game) This is only for PvT , for PvZ it doesn't matter since queens are so good at everything. All in all, adepts are hilariously good at this moment, to the point where Warhounds, in retrospect, were just little silly toys.
Actually most people ARE using the stalker. Adepts do not have high HP atm. Its less than a stalker. They also only have decent dps vs light. No one is 'massing' adepts in the midgame, they aren't hilariously good at all. Better than warhounds? Mate do you even play the game? Every time things get nerfed it takes like 2 months before these people who complain about shit and seemily haven't even played the new patch to realise the meta has shifted.
They could nerf it to 50/50 and you'd probably still whine about it.
It's funny how he whines about an adept drop 'while dropping as terran'. I don't think he realizes the devastation a 1-2 medivac drop can have on economy if you don't respond accordingly. If you don't respond to an adept drop, and you're out of position, you deserve losing your entire mineral line. Such a weird whine.
blizzard is not listening, the game has A LOT of issues and they say the game is fine!! wtf???
i think pvz is in a terrible state, i think lukers are op, so is parasite bomb. msc should be removed. the new chronoboost sucks. disruptors are terrible, maybe the worst unit ever. the adept was suppossed to be a core unit, and its a useless unit vs zerg and vs terran is good very early game, then again its useless.
protoss is a mess, now with this feeback i have lost all hope of this game being better. they wont change a thing. this beta was a waste of time, no changed on the economy, why not try something different?? why not try 8 workers instead of 12?? why not??? why not try more thing on MM?? why not try more things with protoss??
its really sad, nothing has change, LOTV will be boring as HOTS after maybe 1 year.
AND NOTHING ABOUT THE CHAT SYSTEM, blizzard is lost.
On October 16 2015 07:11 [PkF] Wire wrote: I think it's a huge downgrade from HotS.
LotV is different enough from HotS upon release that it gives consumers a real choice between 2 decently supported RTS games. And LotV will only get more and more different from HotS as Blizz has promised at WCS-Poland and as they will outline at Blizzcon.
so i'm a happy camper and looking forward to November 10th.
On October 16 2015 02:50 WrathSCII wrote: Infestor The main goal for the Infestor is not to have the unit see play in every single game of every matchup, but we want this caster to be powerful in specific strategies or scenarios.
i hope this is where the infestor ends up... as a highly specialized spell caster
On October 16 2015 02:50 WrathSCII wrote:Highest level pros generally don’t play in the beta as we’ve seen in both LotV and HotS betas
For example, the days when if Terran did not stop Zerg before getting Ultras + Dark Swarm it was GG.
Terran would transition into mech as a resposponse.
Not sure if you realize i was referring to BW, but unless u are talking about spider mines, mech can't do anything to an ultra with dark swarm.
Anyway, my point was, I think DK implementing strategies that are near possible to beat if a race gets to late game, is to emulate the reason people figured out such strict timings in BW over the years.
Day9, hope when your game comes out it becomes the best rts out there, i hope it becomes a great esport and I hope that finally blizzard learns their lesson, we need another company to make another rts that can rival sc2, otherwise we are going to keep getting the same shitty game we just play because there is no other like it.
On October 16 2015 07:30 FLuE wrote: Seriously how many times have they said in these community updates, "We heard your feedback..." and I know it is going to be followed by a change that HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT FEEDBACK.
Kinda feel the same about these updates now, and I personally think as well that this beta period for LotV is a huge series of disappointments, wrong moves and missed opportunities, which leaves me as uninterested in the upcoming multiplayer as I've never been throughout SC2's lifecycle.
Of course Blizzard has to sell a product so them acting positively about the state of the game is understandable, but honestly, I'm tired of hearing big promises again leaving players deluded and disappointed, of course they will continue to balance multiplayer after release, but that's something I expect them to do regardless of this whole PR.
As a huge Blizzard fan over the years I certainly noticed a change in their business policy, and unfortunately not for the better, I fear, feels a lot more like "cash grab" nowadays and LotV with that pushed release date greatly lines up with that. They could and should've done so much more with this beta, instead they've spend months over re-re-half-reverting macro mechanics, yet possible economy changes (or reverts) were out of the picture RIGHT off the bat...
What happened to "the game is done, when it's done"?
On October 16 2015 07:30 FLuE wrote: Seriously how many times have they said in these community updates, "We heard your feedback..." and I know it is going to be followed by a change that HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT FEEDBACK.
Kinda feel the same about these updates now, and I personally think as well that this beta period for LotV is a huge series of disappointments, wrong moves and missed opportunities, which leaves me as uninterested in the upcoming multiplayer as I've never been throughout SC2's lifecycle.
Of course Blizzard has to sell a product so them acting positively about the state of the game is understandable, but honestly, I'm tired of hearing big promises again leaving players deluded and disappointed, of course they will continue to balance multiplayer after release, but that's something I expect them to do regardless of this whole PR.
As a huge Blizzard fan over the years I certainly noticed a change in their business policy, and unfortunately not for the better, I fear, feels a lot more like "cash grab" nowadays and LotV with that pushed release date greatly lines up with that. They could and should've done so much more with this beta, instead they've spend months over re-re-half-reverting macro mechanics, yet possible economy changes (or reverts) were out of the picture RIGHT off the bat...
What happened to "the game is done, when it's done"?
I miss those days.
Couldn't agree more. This expansion needs ATLEAST another 6 months of work, but they HAVE TO HAVE IT RELEASED AT BLIZZCON. I don't know if it blizzard making these greedy moves, or the work of their owner-activision
100% what avilo said. Five moths BETA for this??? I expected much more. Preordered HotS, but still wont do it with LotV. 33 year SC player since 2002. Disappointed seem so little said. I need much more from this game. I have seen them let the "BL/infestor" era exist and they were saying the balance is "50/50". WTF??? The game was unplayeble I almost abandoned. More then one year without ladder in WoL. Hots came and I was waiting for finally see TvP mech happen. Crazy Warhound disappear( thanks god) and the game remain the same for another three years in TvP at pro level: BIO BIO BIO BIO BIO..
How can an employee(DK) announce some objectives(make Mech in TvP viable) for the new game(Hots) , not do it and still keep his job??? WTF? What kind of boss does he got? I want him. Doing my job so fucking bad, fail so loud, everybody sees it every single day and nothing matters??? REALLY? What are you doing people?
You want me to play LoL or some CoD? CS? Why dont just give up and let the game to sombody else. 10.11.2015 will be the last SC game in history. One year ago there were 10 000 viewers for Demuslim. Today we got barely 1000...90% less. You want to tell me the game is balance because my ladder is 50/50? REALLY?? I am Diamond. I die to master y high Diamond, but crush Low and mid Diamond. How could my wirate not being 50/50? Its impossible. When you win too much you face better enemies. When you lose too much, you face worse. So you keep there.
Watch the fucking streams Blizz. Avilo no hands victory with BL/Viper or mass carriers. Five featured SC streamers?? How is it possible there are ALWAYS more BW streamers than SC2?? Is this normal?
Imagine everybody got iphone9 in the shop, but preffer to buy the iphone1. Is this normal? SHAME blizz SHAME. Thank you very much for fucking the best RTS in the world. Will be waiting to buy LotV when its only 10€ or less only to play the campaign and will be waiting for ATLAS.
On October 16 2015 07:30 FLuE wrote: Seriously how many times have they said in these community updates, "We heard your feedback..." and I know it is going to be followed by a change that HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT FEEDBACK.
Kinda feel the same about these updates now, and I personally think as well that this beta period for LotV is a huge series of disappointments, wrong moves and missed opportunities, which leaves me as uninterested in the upcoming multiplayer as I've never been throughout SC2's lifecycle.
Of course Blizzard has to sell a product so them acting positively about the state of the game is understandable, but honestly, I'm tired of hearing big promises again leaving players deluded and disappointed, of course they will continue to balance multiplayer after release, but that's something I expect them to do regardless of this whole PR.
As a huge Blizzard fan over the years I certainly noticed a change in their business policy, and unfortunately not for the better, I fear, feels a lot more like "cash grab" nowadays and LotV with that pushed release date greatly lines up with that. They could and should've done so much more with this beta, instead they've spend months over re-re-half-reverting macro mechanics, yet possible economy changes (or reverts) were out of the picture RIGHT off the bat...
What happened to "the game is done, when it's done"?
I miss those days.
Couldn't agree more. This expansion needs ATLEAST another 6 months of work, but they HAVE TO HAVE IT RELEASED AT BLIZZCON. I don't know if it blizzard making these greedy moves, or the work of their owner-activision
Don't know, though activision sure plays it's part in that.
Unlike their cash cows (formerly) WoW and (now) Hearthstone SC2 is all about single copies sold so their incentive isn't too great to postpone a release any further, especially with singleplayer done already (roughly 50% of the playerbase/customers buy SC2 solely for the campaign).
But by doing that they approvingly accept potential harm to their hardcore player base (essentially us, who probably will be the only ones left still playing this game in a few years).
On October 16 2015 03:07 Aquila- wrote: Wait they are talking about BUFFING adepts? What the actual fuck? Warp prism + adept is still incredibly broken vs Terran and they havent even talked about warpprism...
Adepts are hilariously weak at the moment. They're bad in the early game and useless in the later stages of the game - everyone is using stalkers and zealots instead and we all know how well they work against stimmed bio without tech unit support.
Adepts are quite good during very early game, I don't even need to mention (for PvT) the very early natural mining denial capability (mostly due to adept's big health pool + high dps + innate spell); why use stalkers when you have a far better option?! Then there's the full warp prism + 4-6+ warp gates backed adept harass, again, this hits quite early too, and usually it can wreak havoc if terran is slightly out of position (trying to drop for example), or, for whatever reason not having a proper mineral line defense (oO). Also, I don't even want to think about the upgrade ... Anyway, if properly played , adepts can cause terran a very serious economical setback , to the point where you only need to mass adepts during mid game and still be in a good shape (aka win the game) This is only for PvT , for PvZ it doesn't matter since queens are so good at everything. All in all, adepts are hilariously good at this moment, to the point where Warhounds, in retrospect, were just little silly toys.
Actually most people ARE using the stalker. Adepts do not have high HP atm. Its less than a stalker. They also only have decent dps vs light. No one is 'massing' adepts in the midgame, they aren't hilariously good at all. Better than warhounds? Mate do you even play the game? Every time things get nerfed it takes like 2 months before these people who complain about shit and seemily haven't even played the new patch to realise the meta has shifted.
They could nerf it to 50/50 and you'd probably still whine about it.
It's funny how he whines about an adept drop 'while dropping as terran'. I don't think he realizes the devastation a 1-2 medivac drop can have on economy if you don't respond accordingly. If you don't respond to an adept drop, and you're out of position, you deserve losing your entire mineral line. Such a weird whine.
People are very out of touch after being used to bio strength for 5.5 years - they don't want a rebalanced bio or for protoss to have the same capabilities without relying on tier 2.5 - 3.5 units.
Bio destroys gateway when upgrades and higher supplies kick in and that's just a way of life - i had hoped that it would be changed in Legacy with rebalanced low and high tier options for both sides but it only partially happened. I think adept attack doing splash so it could be strong vs med-large numbers of low health units and weaker in lower numbers should have been there from the start
From the looks of it, LotV isn't going to bring old people back, or bring new people in. If anything, its going to drive people out who want Starcraft, not some MOBA BS where every unit needs to have a button, because that's the pinnacle of skill. On top of that, the game is still a mess, and there's only 3.5 weeks until release. I don't see this game saving SC2, or even slowing the decline for more than a few months.
Blizzard has a huge communication problem with the community, this is nothing new, remember when people asked for "moving shot" from Brood War and instead of implementing BW-style micro they made the Phoenix literally shoot while moving?
Not to mention failing to patch units widely seen as OP for months or years, buffing units no one thought needed a buff, (mostly oracle here) and constantly trying to calm community outrage with tired PR platitudes.
This isn't just a Starcraft thing, I don't know about Heroes but in Hearthstone they've left OP cards alone for months and then nerfed them into uselessness.
I don't know, all these community feedback things feel very one sided, like Blizzard is trying to give us their ideas for the game as if they were community ideas and ignoring actual community discussion.
On October 16 2015 11:03 jalstar wrote: Blizzard has a huge communication problem with the community, this is nothing new, remember when people asked for "moving shot" from Brood War and instead of implementing BW-style micro they made the Phoenix literally shoot while moving?
Not to mention failing to patch units widely seen as OP for months or years, buffing units no one thought needed a buff, (mostly oracle here) and constantly trying to calm community outrage with tired PR platitudes.
This isn't just a Starcraft thing, I don't know about Heroes but in Hearthstone they've left OP cards alone for months and then nerfed them into uselessness.
I don't know, all these community feedback things feel very one sided, like Blizzard is trying to give us their ideas for the game as if they were community ideas and ignoring actual community discussion.
I don't know, all these community feedback things feel very one sided, like Blizzard is trying to give us their ideas for the game as if they were community ideas and ignoring actual community discussion.
It really does feel that way. I've talked to several people who had close discussion with blizzard including some TL staff only reinforcing that opinion. There is a very narrow range of things that they will even consider when it relates to the game engine or gameplay.
"If it can't be fixed in the map editor, don't bother suggesting it" is something that i have heard more than once.
And it's really a shame, they have a great RTS that could be so much more and a community that is very willing to help out. They have taken some big steps but i really feel that it could be done differently and better for everyone involved
On October 16 2015 07:30 FLuE wrote: Seriously how many times have they said in these community updates, "We heard your feedback..." and I know it is going to be followed by a change that HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT FEEDBACK.
Kinda feel the same about these updates now, and I personally think as well that this beta period for LotV is a huge series of disappointments, wrong moves and missed opportunities, which leaves me as uninterested in the upcoming multiplayer as I've never been throughout SC2's lifecycle.
Of course Blizzard has to sell a product so them acting positively about the state of the game is understandable, but honestly, I'm tired of hearing big promises again leaving players deluded and disappointed, of course they will continue to balance multiplayer after release, but that's something I expect them to do regardless of this whole PR.
As a huge Blizzard fan over the years I certainly noticed a change in their business policy, and unfortunately not for the better, I fear, feels a lot more like "cash grab" nowadays and LotV with that pushed release date greatly lines up with that. They could and should've done so much more with this beta, instead they've spend months over re-re-half-reverting macro mechanics, yet possible economy changes (or reverts) were out of the picture RIGHT off the bat...
What happened to "the game is done, when it's done"?
I miss those days.
Couldn't agree more. This expansion needs ATLEAST another 6 months of work, but they HAVE TO HAVE IT RELEASED AT BLIZZCON. I don't know if it blizzard making these greedy moves, or the work of their owner-activision
Doesn't matter how much time they allow for beta if they're not willing to make the massive changes that people have been asking for (from the worker/harvesting changes to macro mechanics). Personally I'm happy with the new units, tho.
1) The game definitely needs to come out next month. Once the Korea pros start playing plenty of balances issues will come to the forefront. Remember Korean determines the scene.
2) I play about 25 games at low level, its actually kind of fun. There is relatively little use of any of the fore-mentioned OP units. I haven't been cheesed. No one has gotten a 200/200 sky army on me. I have no idea what parasitic bomb is. But reaper bomb is entertaining and silly. The weird surplus of minerals after building your first gateway, barracks is sort of awesome. This is all to say: without the abusive strategies the game seems great. But as soon as I get high enough to where people start being good with warp prisms, tank drops, all-ins, op-compositions, IDK, I wonder if I'll keep playing
3) Why does the adept have to be an integral unit throughout the entire game. Why can't it be like toss's version of the reaper?
4) Balance vs. game design. There is a difference right. My big thought is how are the new units changing game design. HotS is a 3 base sort of game, you only really need a fourth once the main is mined out. I think with the new eco changes, Blizz wanted LotV to be more of 4/5 base game. However with all the backdoor/harass/air units it doesn't really seem possible for a player to be on 5 bases at once. Harass units are supposed to break the deathball mentality seen in HoTs however they seem to be contributing to it, because it far more advantageous to turtle for an ultimate army than to go for 5/6 bases and win by out-ecoing an opponent. In LotV players get to 3 bases faster, but are still forced to stay mining on 3.
5) This is getting very rambley and not really in any form of coherent argument. But what if we were to massively increase the high points of buildings and to some extent workers. Then give a couple of units more damage against buildings. Would this solve lots of the overlap issues with units (for example making the cyclone an anti-building unit)? Would it solve the 3 base thing? Yes it absolutely would. I just know!
6)I realize this post is sort of dumb. One, because Blizzard isn't actually open to criticisms or suggestions. Two, because I have no idea what I'm talking about
3) Why does the adept have to be an integral unit throughout the entire game. Why can't it be like toss's version of the reaper?
The reaper is a unit that has had issues with design throughout the entire lifespan of sc2. Toss gateway/warpgates has also had design issues and their production mechanics were extremely strong in some tight timings but units overall often unable to fight the units of other races, particularly terrans without heavy support (colossi, ht) because of how they were balanced. Adept was supposed to be a pretty strong core unit to flesh out the gateway some more and help with that problem.
Do you know how reaper is used in Legacy? In TvP, terrans often make 1 reaper. They walk it to toss base. If toss went gateway first, the reaper usually dies without doing anything or leaves and camps ramp/watchtower. It's not a great unit to be wanting more of right now
On October 16 2015 02:55 SC2Angora wrote: No talk about 8 armor ultralisk and Parasitic bomb seriously ?
Or liberator
Hasn't the liberator been nerfed back to what it used to be - as the siege mode is an upgrade now in the lab?
They have messed around a lot with what it takes to get the first liberator out as zerg was struggling with that. Their function in the mid-lategame as a versatile unit that is cost and supply efficient is unchanged
This is going to be great... can't wait to see the pros play LOTV right after it's released. Yea it will be a mess of OPness... that's whats so great about a new expansion. The most exciting time watching HOTS was right when it came out... so much drama and whine!
In all seriousness though... the game must come out after Blizzconn and before all the leagues start up again. They can patch the OP stuff later. I for one can't wait for this thing anymore, most of all to play the campaign and try Allied Commanders.
Way to fix Neural Parasite - drop infestor target priority once NP is used. Right now, they are autotargeted it seems, or at least equal to top priority to be killed. They die too fast.
The level of salts and whining in this thread is highly amusing People are complaining loudly about everything, and the changes "community" propose are contradicting each other... This week's feedback addressing a lot of proposing issues I saw both on TL and on reddit, I really don't know where this Blizzard is not listening to community whine comes from... *headdesk*
On October 16 2015 11:07 wjat wrote: 2 Month ago I swear I was happy seeing thos community feedbacks.
Now, I'm scared >
Poor dev team. They are trying so hard to listen and give feedback. It's impossible though because half the community says one thing and the other half says another. Then Blizz speaks and everyone seemingly knee-jerk reacts.
On October 16 2015 13:08 FabledIntegral wrote: Way to fix Neural Parasite - drop infestor target priority once NP is used. Right now, they are autotargeted it seems, or at least equal to top priority to be killed. They die too fast.
Well yeah, any player with half a brain would manually target them lol...
The game won't be balanced at release. We need the top koreans to shake things out in the first couple tournaments... Its just how it realistically will work out.. Not different from WoL release or HOTS release...
internal data of what, <500 concurrent sc2 games at a time? it's kind of silly to base any statements about balance on research data gathered in a beta, then to acknowledge that beta gameplay isn't a solid representation of the streams of consciousness or criticisms that a player may have. I'm sorry, but the playerbase is expecting a sense of wonderment at playing your game, much like how it was when we had our hands on a fresh copy of broodwars.
it's obvious no more sweeping changes are going to be made. there's huge amounts of pressure to be releasing the game now and I'm sure they regret not having more time to work on things. that's the unfortunate truth about developing a game.
For example, the days when if Terran did not stop Zerg before getting Ultras + Dark Swarm it was GG.
Terran would transition into mech as a resposponse.
Not sure if you realize i was referring to BW, but unless u are talking about spider mines, mech can't do anything to an ultra with dark swarm.
Anyway, my point was, I think DK implementing strategies that are near possible to beat if a race gets to late game, is to emulate the reason people figured out such strict timings in BW over the years.
Mech transition was the terran response to lategame zerg in BW, because not only tanks were insane good, but tank splash wasn't affected by DS, mines where good too, ofc, and the whole mech army was much more supply effective than the M&M one, also SV was the most common response to irradiate both ultras and defilers.
For example, the days when if Terran did not stop Zerg before getting Ultras + Dark Swarm it was GG.
Terran would transition into mech as a resposponse.
Not sure if you realize i was referring to BW, but unless u are talking about spider mines, mech can't do anything to an ultra with dark swarm.
Anyway, my point was, I think DK implementing strategies that are near possible to beat if a race gets to late game, is to emulate the reason people figured out such strict timings in BW over the years.
Mech transition was the terran response to lategame zerg in BW, because not only tanks were insane good, but tank splash wasn't affected by DS, mines where good too, ofc, and the whole mech army was much more supply effective than the M&M one, also SV was the most common response to irradiate both ultras and defilers.
well, both compositions were gradual transitions. they don't immediately exist because they are your way of ending the game, it's just too expensive.
zerg grabs hive tech, cracklings, and defilers for defense with some lurkers (which are still used in the compositions). meanwhile, science vessels are created to make it costly to defend or attack by deleting defilers to force them to use their energy in defenses at this point. terran adds vulture and spidermines to deal with the zerglings across the map. there is enough economy backing to create a few lurkers or perhaps a handful of ultras to siege a terran base or location. at this point tanks are added because they're one of the only ways to deal with lurkers and darkswarm and are fine against zerglings. marines, medics, and firebats are still produced because it takes a long long time to transition fully into mech, and it's a more versatile unit group for attacking and punishing hopeful bases. aaand bam. if both of you survived to this point and you're defending until your full mech composition is complete, you are now planning on ending the game. hopefully for zerg they've done enough damage at this point to force the concede because god damn is it hard to walk through choke points against siege tanks.
On October 16 2015 11:07 wjat wrote: 2 Month ago I swear I was happy seeing thos community feedbacks.
Now, I'm scared >
Poor dev team. They are trying so hard to listen and give feedback. It's impossible though because half the community says one thing and the other half says another. Then Blizz speaks and everyone seemingly knee-jerk reacts.
It's not necessarily the changes that are worrisome, it's the reasoning that's provided for the changes - or lack of reasoning provided for things staying as they are - that makes one wonder what the hell they're thinking sometimes.
The Carrier nerf doesn't actually do anything to stop mass Carriers from being an unbeatable composition in PvZ. All it does is make it harder to reach that unbeatable composition. Does Blizzard realize that they're just band aiding the problem away (yet again)? If not, then that's bad. Band aids have a ungluing themselves at very opportune times once the meta has settled... and tie your hands in designing the rest of the game, besides. If they do realize exactly what they're doing, why do they think that it's a good thing to have unbeatable compositions in the game? If there's a good reason for it, then maybe providing it would have mitigated the confusion this update generated from the community. Maybe it wouldn't have. Or maybe their reason is a bad one.
Yes, they're communicating, but more often than not that communication is on the level of "Adept strong! Nerf Adept! Good. Adept weak! Buff Adept! Good!"
It's kind of staggering to think that in all the Adept balance talk, they never once brought up the fact that dropping its damage by 1 would make it 3-shot workers and Marines instead of 2-shotting them. It's a HUGE difference. Why did they think that dropping its HP was the best solution? Dropping its HP made it less useful in the midgame, but in the early game it did nothing to stop the occasional "Oh you're out of position so I guess you just die" phenomenon vs Terran. I'm not saying that a damage nerf would have solved everything, I can't know whether it would or it wouldn't; it's the lack of clear, straight-forward reasoning that raises sticky questions.
For example, the days when if Terran did not stop Zerg before getting Ultras + Dark Swarm it was GG.
Terran would transition into mech as a resposponse.
Not sure if you realize i was referring to BW, but unless u are talking about spider mines, mech can't do anything to an ultra with dark swarm.
Anyway, my point was, I think DK implementing strategies that are near possible to beat if a race gets to late game, is to emulate the reason people figured out such strict timings in BW over the years.
Mech transition was the terran response to lategame zerg in BW, because not only tanks were insane good, but tank splash wasn't affected by DS, mines where good too, ofc, and the whole mech army was much more supply effective than the M&M one, also SV was the most common response to irradiate both ultras and defilers.
well, both compositions were gradual transitions. they don't immediately exist because they are your way of ending the game, it's just too expensive.
zerg grabs hive tech, cracklings, and defilers for defense with some lurkers (which are still used in the compositions). meanwhile, science vessels are created to make it costly to defend or attack by deleting defilers to force them to use their energy in defenses at this point. terran adds vulture and spidermines to deal with the zerglings across the map. there is enough economy backing to create a few lurkers or perhaps a handful of ultras to siege a terran base or location. at this point tanks are added because they're one of the only ways to deal with lurkers and darkswarm and are fine against zerglings. marines, medics, and firebats are still produced because it takes a long long time to transition fully into mech, and it's a more versatile unit group for attacking and punishing hopeful bases. aaand bam. if both of you survived to this point and you're defending until your full mech composition is complete, you are now planning on ending the game. hopefully for zerg they've done enough damage at this point to force the concede because god damn is it hard to walk through choke points against siege tanks.
I liked the science vessel vs zerg late game relationship. You had this fine line, a tug of war between these units and the SV somewhat limited outrageous zerg things like mass muta balls or anything deathball related. So engagements were all over the map with mostly basic zerg troops with some ultras defilers sprinkled on top.
On October 16 2015 13:08 FabledIntegral wrote: Way to fix Neural Parasite - drop infestor target priority once NP is used. Right now, they are autotargeted it seems, or at least equal to top priority to be killed. They die too fast.
Well yeah, any player with half a brain would manually target them lol...
The game won't be balanced at release. We need the top koreans to shake things out in the first couple tournaments... Its just how it realistically will work out.. Not different from WoL release or HOTS release...
It doesn't work like that at all in a fight. It's extremely similar to Zerglings getting into a mineral line - you have one aggro unit, and teh zergling AI sucks dick vs the workers, even if you manually target. Or even Thor vs muta.
This works near identical with NP vs carriers or a mothership.
i must admit, as cool as the carrier thing seems, i can't help but feel that the way that it works is simply ridiculous.
so you cast your interceptors, 8 of them... then you begin rebuilding... now you have 9... 10... 11 interceptors... 12... now you can cast the ability again... begin rebuilding... 13... 14... 15... this is one carrier... this makes me feel like their "internal testing" consists of making sure the unit doesn't crash the game, and calling it done. how long did they mess with this internally? it took me 20 seconds to understand that this is absolutely ridiculous for a single unit. an un-upgraded carrier has 80 dps... but now... it has 90... 100... 110... 120...
i love the carrier and all, but as it stands, the ability is way too strong inherently. don't just suggest to me now that we can just tweak the carrier's damage numbers, when that kind of simple number change could have been applied to many many other things. this ability stands at the same level as siege tank lift. it seems "exciting", but it really belongs in a custom game. the issue is that so does the viper's tentacle. this is the problem with their "design philosophy" of making "only exciting changes".
sometimes important changes might be less exciting, and the more exciting ones might not be good for the game. by strictly adhering to this "philosophy", they are removing a plethora of important changes from the game. the most important one, that i still think is exciting is miss chance uphill. there was never any mention of this since WoL beta, and as far as i know, there may have been none there either. this would cause us to be able to construct real maps with real high ground advantage and positioning.
they are content with the larger state of the game. no more removals. no economy changes. no additional units, even though most of the few important things we need sit quietly in the campaign section, the dark basement of the game. they wanted the mothership core from the start. they never intended to remove the mothership core or photon overcharge. yet, in the campaign we will see shield batteries and dark archons and apparently sentries with shield heal... none of those interesting or "exciting" things will be seen in the real game, 1v1 multiplayer.
looks like beta is basically over. welcome to the finished product. it's not the worst game ever, really, but it could be soooo much more. so much more beyond what we see. but now you enjoy our other game modes like archon mode or allied commanders... oh did we mention we put the dark archons in allied commander? yea we figured they had no place in 1v1 multiplayer and could not be considered in any form. thanks for your help in testing.
Our only hope is that this expansion is a massive flop and DK gets fired and the new guy actually knows how to make the game great again. We need a keanu reeves...
so you cast your interceptors, 8 of them... then you begin rebuilding... now you have 9... 10... 11 interceptors... 12... now you can cast the ability again..
The ability which they patched to have a huge cooldown like a month ago so that you couldn't use it multiple times consecutively?
lol @ all terrans and protoss players freaking out because now zerg also has some gimmicks that forces terran/toss to scout and react in a specific way, maybe even forces them to take some time to figure out a way to defend it. and yeah maybe even then it's still hard to defend it. i hope so. hots has been one big tower defense game for zerg, crap like being ripped off a core unit, but yeah long mech games are totally fine. at the end of pro league you could see that no team wanted to put a zerg up against a terran/toss anymore. byul fought his way into those finals like a beast and would have deserved to win both but on even skill level the race with more options wins. time to change this in lotv.
Is "internal data" the same departement as "internal testing"? The departement that thought is was a good idea that zealots deal 30 dmg on charge, that overcharge would be casted on pylons and that removing the macro mechanics while automating the zergs one would be a good idea?
The typical "feedback update" thread : [Insert the thing that beats me on ladder the most] is absolute bulshit, why no nerf ? Omg, omg David Kim terrible person, doesn't know shit, random guy made a thread with better solution. LOTV is a failure !!!1!!1 Sadly we are still on that stage.
On October 16 2015 15:53 MapleLeafSirup wrote: Are these changes implented in the game? The patch notes for 3.0.1 don't say anything about balance changes.
On October 16 2015 17:07 inken wrote: lol @ all terrans and protoss players freaking out because now zerg also has some gimmicks that forces terran/toss to scout and react in a specific way, maybe even forces them to take some time to figure out a way to defend it. and yeah maybe even then it's still hard to defend it.
If Zerg didn't already have anything that needed scouting and reacting to, HyuN quite literally would not have a career.
The departement that thought is was a good idea that zealots deal 30 dmg on charge
There was actually a major bug relating to it. If you had read the rest of the developer feedback, you would know that the value wouldn't have been anywhere near that high. There was an issue with the zealot in testing that was fixed on live server, but damage wasn't adjusted to compensate until the patch afterwards
On October 16 2015 18:17 Pr0wler wrote: The typical "feedback update" thread : [Insert the thing that beats me on ladder the most] is absolute bulshit, why no nerf ? Omg, omg David Kim terrible person, doesn't know shit, random guy made a thread with better solution. LOTV is a failure !!!1!!1 Sadly we are still on that stage.
So that makes your post the typical [insert random sarcastic whine bullshit] and now I have to discredit all people who have a different opinion on the state of the game with some condescending statement reply constantly popping up in these threads, then?
On October 16 2015 15:53 MapleLeafSirup wrote: Are these changes implented in the game? The patch notes for 3.0.1 don't say anything about balance changes.
Legacy Of The Void doesn't have 3.0 yet.
This guy come from the future! 3.0 LOTV nothing change though. :>
so you cast your interceptors, 8 of them... then you begin rebuilding... now you have 9... 10... 11 interceptors... 12... now you can cast the ability again..
The ability which they patched to have a huge cooldown like a month ago so that you couldn't use it multiple times consecutively?
by the time you have made only 4 more interceptors, you can cast again. not that big of a nerf, but the first interceptor that finishes can still leave the carrier to attack, adding to the 8 that are permanently deployed.
Still no mention of fixing ghosts thors and battle cruisers,, Although the rest of suggestions are fine for this community update. It feels like he wants terran to do the same thing every game to win. Oh well! I wonder when blizzard will get a new balance team instead of 1 david kim.
by the time you have made only 4 more interceptors, you can cast again. not that big of a nerf, but the first interceptor that finishes can still leave the carrier to attack, adding to the 8 that are permanently deployed.
you'll be better not deploy them assuming the carrier isn't about to die for 2 reasons :
- the deployed interceptors attack targets randomly : this will increase enemy units survability - the deployed interceptors are static so if you or the enemy move away you'll lose DPS
The only moment you want to use this ability is when the carrier is about to die.
On October 16 2015 02:50 WrathSCII wrote: Highest level pros generally don’t play in the beta
I am somewhat confused who he's talking about here. The majority of (KeSPA) pro players that aren't going to be at Blizzcon seem to have switched. So is David Kim talking about the fact that IM.Mvp still streams Heart of the Swarm?
Cyclone The Cyclone isn’t quite there yet even after the last patch, so we’ve been exploring various potential changes. Where we are at currently that we want to roll out to beta is higher damage on lock on and lower health on Cyclone themselves. Instead of having Cyclones as all round units, we’re having a lot more success with them as intense micro units that can potentially have big wins when lock on and the fast movement speed are used effectively. Please let us know your thoughts on these changes once the changes go to beta tomorrow.
Doesn't "high damage low health" basically describe every Terran unit though?
On October 16 2015 02:50 WrathSCII wrote: Highest level pros generally don’t play in the beta
I am somewhat confused who he's talking about here. The majority of (KeSPA) pro players that aren't going to be at Blizzcon seem to have switched. So is David Kim talking about the fact that IM.Mvp still streams Heart of the Swarm?
It is just them pre-building their excuse for when the game releases as a total mess.
They will go, "well our data didn't show this(yet the ENTIRE community said it) but now that pro players have all switched we can clearly see the issues!"
It just buys them time and allows them to have that excuse when this thing is a joke on release. Basically it is them saying the current beta testers, including their "internal testers," are not capable of really playing this game. They need to wait for all the pros to really show them the way.
It is a bit insulting to their own testing team and all of us that are actually playing the game and giving feedback.
Blizzard and SC2 has no clear direction of a business model and plan. Are they making this an eSport of for casuals? Personally their business model doesn't indicate they are making an eSport. The profit comes from selling of hard copies, there are no after purchase things to buy, no subscription, and the viewership isn't high enough with the eSport side to generate any real profit. So I don't get why they aren't more focused on making a game great for the masses and then let the pro players figure it out. The eSport side will grow organically, it feels so forced. And in the meantime the casual player is turned off by the game.
There is no way in it's current form someone who has little to know RTS or SC background can enjoy playing it. The number of weird nuances and details and all the armor types and damage types and abilities are overwhelming. Overall this game is really a mess and they have no idea what they are doing with it, sad to see.
On October 16 2015 02:50 WrathSCII wrote: Highest level pros generally don’t play in the beta
I am somewhat confused who he's talking about here. The majority of (KeSPA) pro players that aren't going to be at Blizzcon seem to have switched. So is David Kim talking about the fact that IM.Mvp still streams Heart of the Swarm?
Wow you are back!! :D Are you sure that the players switched already? I would have guessed that they all prepare for blizzcon atm. I am sure they tried LOTV, but playing it fulltime already?
On October 16 2015 02:50 WrathSCII wrote: Highest level pros generally don’t play in the beta
I am somewhat confused who he's talking about here. The majority of (KeSPA) pro players that aren't going to be at Blizzcon seem to have switched. So is David Kim talking about the fact that IM.Mvp still streams Heart of the Swarm?
Wow you are back!! :D Are you sure that the players switched already? I would have guessed that they all prepare for blizzcon atm. I am sure they tried LOTV, but playing it fulltime already?
I think most pros are playing part time HOTS at least, to help teammates prepare for WCS.
It makes me very sad how this community handles the feedback of Blizzard. I played BW long ago. And I tell you something SC II has improved in a good way and Blizzard did very good work on LotV the new economey is awesome. You People here have no clue about good game design and will never be happy about SC II. All you can do is complain and have no really good solutions.
Zerg is totally fine great new Units
Terra has issues but at least they talk about it give them time!!!!!
Toss is also in a good state but needs to be improved again give them time!!!!!
Do you know what. Look at the shitty BW Units. Like the shit Zerg Queen, the shit terran star port units. The Scout from Protoss. The Dark Archon and so on. You always say BW was so great. BW had also units which were bad and wouldnt be used in 99 percent in any game.
You have no clue about what you are talking about. SC II is a great game. The Problem is that the new generation of gamers plays easier titles like mobas (I dont really like them but this is the new type of E-Sports). Starcraft will be an E-Sport forever. But it will stay small for a while but thats no Problem.
This community is a problem. I read your threads for years and years. You have no idea about good game design. Evereything Blizzard does will be flamed here. Tell me which company makes good rts games. All you want is BW. I liked BW but the time is over. SC II is fun to play but you dont give Lotv a chance. It needs to be improved but think about how long it took for BW to become great?
Also i laughed loud when read abot the stupid idea about DH economey from Team Liquid. The 3 base cap is no problem because you have to expand faster. This is pressure and not the stupid DH which brings nothing to the game. SC II needs to be fast. Even faster than BW!
The next thing i had to laugh about is your complain about worker harrasment in SC II. I like that i can win the game about harrasment only! This is diversity! Oh and for the Broodwar fanboys. The same thing in harrasment happen in BW. Stormdrops, reaver Drops lurker Drops Vulture Drops with mines in workerlines and so on. They can be gameending too!!!!!!!
The most People here now nothing about SC II or Broodwar and have no clue about what they are talking about and give no constructive feedback. Ist a shame for this community.
On October 16 2015 03:07 Aquila- wrote: Wait they are talking about BUFFING adepts? What the actual fuck? Warp prism + adept is still incredibly broken vs Terran and they havent even talked about warpprism...
Adepts are hilariously weak at the moment. They're bad in the early game and useless in the later stages of the game - everyone is using stalkers and zealots instead and we all know how well they work against stimmed bio without tech unit support.
Adepts are quite good during very early game, I don't even need to mention (for PvT) the very early natural mining denial capability (mostly due to adept's big health pool + high dps + innate spell); why use stalkers when you have a far better option?! Then there's the full warp prism + 4-6+ warp gates backed adept harass, again, this hits quite early too, and usually it can wreak havoc if terran is slightly out of position (trying to drop for example), or, for whatever reason not having a proper mineral line defense (oO). Also, I don't even want to think about the upgrade ... Anyway, if properly played , adepts can cause terran a very serious economical setback , to the point where you only need to mass adepts during mid game and still be in a good shape (aka win the game) This is only for PvT , for PvZ it doesn't matter since queens are so good at everything. All in all, adepts are hilariously good at this moment, to the point where Warhounds, in retrospect, were just little silly toys.
Actually most people ARE using the stalker. Adepts do not have high HP atm. Its less than a stalker. They also only have decent dps vs light. No one is 'massing' adepts in the midgame, they aren't hilariously good at all. Better than warhounds? Mate do you even play the game? Every time things get nerfed it takes like 2 months before these people who complain about shit and seemily haven't even played the new patch to realise the meta has shifted.
They could nerf it to 50/50 and you'd probably still whine about it.
It's funny how he whines about an adept drop 'while dropping as terran'. I don't think he realizes the devastation a 1-2 medivac drop can have on economy if you don't respond accordingly. If you don't respond to an adept drop, and you're out of position, you deserve losing your entire mineral line. Such a weird whine.
Your comment is just as strange. The Medivac is Terran's sole form of mobility. We don't get creep (and our MULEs can't attack or cast spells). We don't get warpgates. And quite frankly, we don't even get anti-ground static defense until 4+ bases. So yeah, we use the Medivac to transport units around, while risking 10 supply in the process.
I'm not saying it's out of balance, or OP, or anything with this comment, just shutting down your nonsense. Toss can fly around with the Warp prism risking only the supply of the War prism. See a hole? Great. Drop and do massive damage, because Terran has to literally travel back to respond. At least a Terran drop has to pre-commit supply to the drop. Sure they can abandon if they don't like what they see, but it's a pre-commitment. Not saying this is easy to do, but at least Toss can warp in, cast PO, or have cannons to help with a drop. There is arguably more forgiveness for an unprepared Toss than an unprepared Terran.
And Cyro, dude. Adepts are "hilariously weak"? You must be kidding. Then you say your Gateway units need tech support to fight stimmed bio ... seemingly suggesting that stimmed bio doesn't need tech support to fight Gateway units. If Terran has all three Bio upgrades (shields, stim, and shells), and Protoss has all three Gateway upgrades (blink, charge, and +dps [<-- lol]), Gateway units will absolutely shreck bio, if that bio doesn't have tech support; namely, medivacs. Then, if Terran has medivacs, Protoss needs to add some tech to even things out again. You are better than this, to make such silly arguments, because you know all of this. Bu this tech is so awesome, Terran usually has to tech up again (Mines, Ghosts, or Liberators, usually).
Adepts are not hilariously weak right now. That's an absurd statement. They're no longer free-win strong, which is good.
In a shocking turn of events, SCReddit actually has been much more receptive than TL when it comes to the Community Feedback Updates, and has been for awhile now. Reports are coming in that, aside from a couple more extreme individuals, actual reasonable and respectful discussion has been taking place on the site. There are even some crazy rumors coming out that there were people thanking David Kim for his work on the game!
On October 16 2015 23:56 HighPassage wrote: In a shocking turn of events, SCReddit actually has been much more receptive than TL when it comes to the Community Feedback Updates, and has been for awhile now. Reports are coming in that, aside from a couple more extreme individuals, actual reasonable and respectful discussion has been taking place on the site. There are even some crazy rumors coming out that there were people thanking David Kim for his work on the game!
Typical Reddit. They yes to anything DK throws at them. What is the weird thing here?
I don't know man, that's just what my sources told me. I was told that SCReddit was a horrible place devoid of any real discussion so I avoided it, but it seems like they're just having normal discussions and complaints about the game instead of flip-flopping between canceling their pre-orders and talking about how the game is ruined forever with each update since the beta has been out.
To be fair these feedback threads are basically the same 10 people throwing shit at each other on repeat. The overwhelming negativity really is put in perspective when you notice that it's basically the same small group of people over and over again. I think the game is moving in a pretty good direction honestly.
1. PvZ lurker timing 2. Carrier strength after the build time nerfs 3. Siege tank drops in TvT 4. Potential revert to 10 shield nerf on Adept 5. Liberator anti ground range
those are the important fields glad they finally realized but better now then never!
nerf Lurker damage a bit and in return tune down "photon overcharge" a slight nurf to carrier hp -50 or -100 and a slight nurf to their build time (instead of the return to hots build time) would be better please give adepts their 10 shields back the unit is in a good state - you should consider to buff warp ins a tiny bit (1-2sec) liberator anti ground range -1 or -2 would be a great thing that finally allows ground units with air attack to kill them while they are unprotected
On October 17 2015 00:31 Little-Chimp wrote: To be fair these feedback threads are basically the same 10 people throwing shit at each other on repeat. The overwhelming negativity really is put in perspective when you notice that it's basically the same small group of people over and over again. I think the game is moving in a pretty good direction honestly.
I will be 100% honest. Most of the discontent, I believe, is not necessarily the state of the game, as much as Blizzard's PR ever since they announced the release date.
If they did typical patches, without these updates, I may not have known their (supposed) reasoning behind changes, but I would not have been so upset.
But to anyone who was giving feedback throughout the beta, it became very obvious their direction changed within days of the release date announcement. The community was pretty postitive about the community updates until then. After that point, the change of direction reeked of a "rushed game", and they would constantly say "As many of you have said...." and then come up with something that is completely the opposite of what the community was expressing, using the community as the reason for their changes when the community was BEGGING for something different!
From that point, the community updates just felt like a hoax. And how they consistently did that update after update, just made me feel like my/our feedback really don't mean a damn thing, and everything they have been saying these last few months has just been a sham. I wish they would just be up front about the true reasons they changed direction, and bumped up the release date, rather than give up the direction they worked towards the entire beta and act like it was what the community wanted.
Again I will be 100% honest, once they made me feel that way, I became very discontent with other things in the game. Smaller problems that I did not complain about before, became bigger issues. Why? Because I was no longer happy with the overall direction of the game, and lost faith in the developers because, despite what some people in this topic have claimed, they have shown they do NOT have a clear vision of where they want to bring this game. They completely flip-flopped ever since a few days within their release date announcement. They were saying that their changes were working out well, they were happy with the direction of the game, even defending their decisions with that direction. Then literally on september 10th they are suddenly "50/50 with their direction", followed by september 13 they announce release date (sooner than they said it would be). That just makes me unhappy with the direction & lose fiath in the devs.
But if I think about the game itself, I don't think its in THAT horrible of a state. I find it more fun than HotS.
I truly think people are more upset with Blizzard, than the game itself...
On October 17 2015 03:03 Spyridon wrote: But if I think about the game itself, I don't think its in THAT horrible of a state. I find it more fun than HotS.
I truly think people are more upset with Blizzard, than the game itself...
To be 100% Honest. I'm upset that the entire team lead by David Kim is still working on StarCraft. Since the start of the beta, I was completely against the 12 worker start and the economy state and especially the super duper fast game pace. With of all that getting ignored till this point and especially after the facade of the MM. I just lost hope in that person and his team. I just cannot accept the fact that StarCraft II is still being led by this man.
So I made my decision. I quit the Multiplayer aspect and bought the game for solely campaign and arcade. But multiplayer is not for me at all. That is why I moved to BW on ICCUP. Having a hard time there, but it is way more fun and simpler than the mess in Legacy.
blizzard, what do you think about making disruptors full damage vs biological but half damage vs armored? that way they will be useful at pvt and pvz but less useful in pvp, where the match up is becoming a bit retarded because disruptor vs disruptor battles.
On October 16 2015 02:50 WrathSCII wrote: Highest level pros generally don’t play in the beta
I am somewhat confused who he's talking about here. The majority of (KeSPA) pro players that aren't going to be at Blizzcon seem to have switched. So is David Kim talking about the fact that IM.Mvp still streams Heart of the Swarm?
Wow you are back!! :D Are you sure that the players switched already? I would have guessed that they all prepare for blizzcon atm. I am sure they tried LOTV, but playing it fulltime already?
There are enough KeSPA players that got done with Proleague early and have no teammates at Blizzcon, so they might aswell start playing LotV because we're running out of HotS tourneys (e.g. most players on Samsung including Solar who I would say is really high level). Not to mention PartinG who is at Blizzcon playing tons of LotV. I'm pretty sure at this point there's enough high level players and feedback for it to matter. Like, it has to be a shitty excuse. Or do we actually wait with balance changes until the top 2 HotS players of every race figure out what's the most broken playstyle?
On October 16 2015 02:50 WrathSCII wrote: Highest level pros generally don’t play in the beta
I am somewhat confused who he's talking about here. The majority of (KeSPA) pro players that aren't going to be at Blizzcon seem to have switched. So is David Kim talking about the fact that IM.Mvp still streams Heart of the Swarm?
Wow you are back!! :D Are you sure that the players switched already? I would have guessed that they all prepare for blizzcon atm. I am sure they tried LOTV, but playing it fulltime already?
There are enough KeSPA players that got done with Proleague early and have no teammates at Blizzcon, so they might aswell start playing LotV because we're running out of HotS tourneys (e.g. most players on Samsung including Solar who I would say is really high level). Not to mention PartinG who is at Blizzcon playing tons of LotV. I'm pretty sure at this point there's enough high level players and feedback for it to matter. Like, it has to be a shitty excuse. Or do we actually wait with balance changes until the top 2 HotS players of every race figure out what's the most broken playstyle?
Hm yeah makes sense i guess. I didn't wanna defend his excuse btw, i think blizzard didn't do nearly enough in the beta, both for balance and design.
On October 16 2015 22:05 FLuE wrote: Blizzard and SC2 has no clear direction of a business model and plan.
ATVI has a crystal clear direction and a well defined business model. No RTS game has come any where close to generating the level of revenue SC2 has. Most of Brood War's sales were via the heavily discounted $20 USD Battlechest.
if any one knows how to develop a business model around a game its ATVI.
On October 16 2015 08:44 Espartaquen wrote: Day9, hope when your game comes out it becomes the best rts out there, i hope it becomes a great esport and I hope that finally blizzard learns their lesson, we need another company to make another rts that can rival sc2, otherwise we are going to keep getting the same shitty game we just play because there is no other like it.
it won't really rival SC2.. its a 3v3 team game... no 1v1 in the artillery games product. also, each player picks 3 units and a hero unit before the game starts. so this game really isn't a head to head competitor with SC2.
now that CoH2 has more than 2 factions its a reasonable competitor to SC2. C&C3, RA2 and RA3 still have competitive communities around them.
On October 16 2015 02:50 WrathSCII wrote: Highest level pros generally don’t play in the beta
I am somewhat confused who he's talking about here. The majority of (KeSPA) pro players that aren't going to be at Blizzcon seem to have switched. So is David Kim talking about the fact that IM.Mvp still streams Heart of the Swarm?
Wow you are back!! :D Are you sure that the players switched already? I would have guessed that they all prepare for blizzcon atm. I am sure they tried LOTV, but playing it fulltime already?
There are enough KeSPA players that got done with Proleague early and have no teammates at Blizzcon, so they might aswell start playing LotV because we're running out of HotS tourneys (e.g. most players on Samsung including Solar who I would say is really high level). Not to mention PartinG who is at Blizzcon playing tons of LotV. I'm pretty sure at this point there's enough high level players and feedback for it to matter. Like, it has to be a shitty excuse. Or do we actually wait with balance changes until the top 2 HotS players of every race figure out what's the most broken playstyle?
Hm yeah makes sense i guess. I didn't wanna defend his excuse btw, i think blizzard didn't do nearly enough in the beta, both for balance and design.
Yeah I somewhat agree. The Cyclone's state of having no purpose when it could be just a solid AA ground unit if they removed the lock-on and did some other tweaks grinds my gears, and the map pool doesn't really make me want to play more games than I have to, either.
One thing about sc2 that's been a problem is the constantly changing rules of the game. It's like every time I get the game down I have to redo my strategies. Blizzard needs to change its approach to balance in future games. I would say less patches and instead more map variety, and please not another 3 game expansion pack because this rebalancing every release is a huge pain.
On October 17 2015 07:31 crazedrat wrote: One thing about sc2 that's been a problem is the constantly changing rules of the game. It's like every time I get the game down I have to redo my strategies. Blizzard needs to change its approach to balance in future games. I would say less patches and instead more map variety, and please not another 3 game expansion pack because this rebalancing every release is a huge pain.
your troubles are over according to Sigaty nothing coming out of Blizz will compete with SC2 for another 10 years.
On October 17 2015 07:31 crazedrat wrote: One thing about sc2 that's been a problem is the constantly changing rules of the game. It's like every time I get the game down I have to redo my strategies. Blizzard needs to change its approach to balance in future games. I would say less patches and instead more map variety, and please not another 3 game expansion pack because this rebalancing every release is a huge pain.
your troubles are over according to Sigaty nothing coming out of Blizz will compete with SC2 for another 10 years.
Really? Source? I thought WarCraft IV would come out within 10 years :p.
On October 17 2015 07:31 crazedrat wrote: One thing about sc2 that's been a problem is the constantly changing rules of the game. It's like every time I get the game down I have to redo my strategies. Blizzard needs to change its approach to balance in future games. I would say less patches and instead more map variety, and please not another 3 game expansion pack because this rebalancing every release is a huge pain.
your troubles are over according to Sigaty nothing coming out of Blizz will compete with SC2 for another 10 years.
Really? Source? I thought WarCraft IV would come out within 10 years :p.
its all over the place, Sigaty stated this at WCS-Poland
Did that mean they don't expect to develop the follow-up, whatever form it may take, before ten years is up?
"I can’t answer that because honestly we don’t know. Is it possible we work on something that steps on the toes of StarCraft? Yes, but there’s no intention to do that today, which is why I think it’s so critical and important how we treat it and how we continue to improve it and make things better - that matters. I think [StarCraft] absolutely stands as an amazing experience to both celebrate the people that get to that level of skill and quality and also to be able to watch and see that. While it’s possible we would [replace that], I don’t see it happening."
so much for Tim Morten's yap 2 weeks earlier about how the team will be gathering together to decide what they'll work on next.
wow just read the article and I really wonder If Chris does really believe the words he says in the interview. "Working the interview and David Kim being a total professional in all of the development phases". If he believes this is the case he totally has no idea about starcraft and how it works even though he should be respected as a "founding father". Seriously, David Kim and the rest of the development team have tried to "work" with the community and all the feedback they have gotten has been either ignored or misinterpreted. This is so stupid, game is in a bad state, people are less than interested in Legacy of the Void if its not by the campaign and multiplayer is so volatile, frustrating and badly designed that Blizz is going to smash his head into the wall. Dont say we did not warn you David Kim and the rest, you are heading in the wrong direction, totally lost, and the day of reckoning is coming...
EPT![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CM809rKWoAAiV0C.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3Pg7bvF.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Pvgthg8.png)
