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First off, totally agree that invincible Nydus needs to go, it's just dumb, kind of like drop at hatch tech.
Second, I think that Warp Prisms will be Protoss primary means of pushing and doing multi pronged attacks, but the strength will certainly be dialed back in due time, it kind of needs to be strong so enough players will start testing it and we can dial it back in a good direction.
Theres alot of things that are going to get nerfed/adjusted over the next 24 months from all the races, it's just going to take time like it always does, HOTS had super up and down periods for everyone and eventually it stabilized into an awesome and established metagame.
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On August 24 2015 05:29 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 05:02 PtitDrogo wrote:
I agree with you on most points, but real talk protoss is a lot more boring without chronoboost management, nerf it all you want to make us unable to do "gimmicky stuff" but leave it be, it's a LOT more strategic than mules and injects.
Personally I don't like the idea of having your entire aggression relying on a warp prism, it's dumb, not too strong (biased snuty ~~), but dumb. I am kinda with drogo here -- some form of nerfed chronoboost would be very nice to have for strategic depth. It could be even just 25% faster for twice the duration at twice the energy. This would still offer a lot more depth to toss. Even if you make unable to cast on nexus if you are worried about probe building speed.
What if its a permanent buff to one building, that can be switched around.
Maybe at 25, 20 or 15% increased production
That would remove the "hardcore" base management and increase production on many bases.
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At least in Brood War, you knew that a Shuttle could only contain max 2 archons or 2 reavers (eh maybe just 1? i forgot lol T_T), and then it would have to "reload".
Not sure the comparison does you any favours here, consider the similar role of the arbiter in BW if it got into your base.
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SoCal732 Posts
On August 24 2015 13:28 Dingobloo wrote:Show nested quote + At least in Brood War, you knew that a Shuttle could only contain max 2 archons or 2 reavers (eh maybe just 1? i forgot lol T_T), and then it would have to "reload". Not sure the comparison does you any favours here, consider the similar role of the arbiter in BW if it got into your base.
I'm not sure your comparison is doing you favors bc arbiters can't continue to spawn units after unloading it's payload in your base.
His point is that shuttles could contain x number of units but warp prisms can contain x number of units PLUS whatever they warp in. The difference being, you can say to yourself, "oh I'll pull back a few units to chase off the shuttle and get him out of my mineral line" vs "oh shit there's a warp prism in my base, better pull back the majority of my army before charge lots kill everything and protoss produces a 2nd wave of units."
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I want to come back and tell you how disgusting I find this opinion. You are so annoyingly biased against things that Protoss like about their race. Just look at Korean play in Proleague and Code S shows wayy more macro and 3 base play than what MorroW suggests. Its really gross how much the whole gimmicky cheese whine continues to show up in North American non-Protoss players.
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On August 24 2015 17:16 Isarios wrote:
I want to come back and tell you how disgusting I find this opinion. You are so annoyingly biased against things that Protoss like about their race. Just look at Korean play in Proleague and Code S shows wayy more macro and 3 base play than what MorroW suggests. Its really gross how much the whole gimmicky cheese whine continues to show up in North American non-Protoss players.
MorroW says that he's spoken to many pro level Protosses who play "gimmicky" cheeses not because they want to, but because it gives them more success. I feel like only Has and sOs take pride in their heavy helpings of Protoss cheese.
Maybe Korean Protosses offer more macro play than MorroW suggests, but I think the vast majority of players would be happy if proxy Oracle succeeded a lot less than it does in Code S. Or proxy DT. Or proxy anything at all.
Sometimes cheese is cool. Life 9 pooling on the 7th map of GSL finals Season 1 2015 is really awesome. But it gets tiring after awhile. INnoVation 2rax'd soO twice in IEM gamescom finals just a little while ago. 2015 Season 2 SSL finals, Dream vs. Classic was an utter cheese fest from Classic. Some random Proleague game I tuned into had some no-name Protoss 2-gate Life from the center of Cactus Valley a few weeks ago.
Cheese is great... to an extent. LotV doesn't kill cheese by any means, but it does greatly reduce their number and strength. MorroW is welcoming a Protoss that isn't reliant on regular cheesing to keep its edge as a race. I definitely welcome this too.
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On August 23 2015 20:44 Liquid`Snute wrote:Nice post!  As MorroW pointed out, Warp Prism in LOTV has to move all the way from the Protoss base before it becomes a real threat. However, it still acts as an UNLIMITED warp-in tunnel once it's there. This is different from Medivac or Overlord that has to 'reload' units that need to walk across the map first. Not much of an issue for Zerg usually, but for Terran, absolutely. Anyway back to the prism. Still only 200 minerals (?), and it takes on average way, way more resources to deflect it than 200 minerals. I think it is unjustified to nerf the forward Pylon hard into the ground while leaving the Warp Prism untouched. The warp prism still acts as an unlimited warp-in tunnel and unlike a Medivac or Overlord it will never stop until killed. Its real threat value isn't 200 minerals, it can be as much as 1500-2000 minerals and gas, sometimes 3000+. With a warp-in time of less than two seconds, even stronger than before. For T and Z (and P), this type of guessing game feels gimmicky from a player perspective. At least in Brood War, you knew that a Shuttle could only contain max 2 archons or 2 reavers (eh maybe just 1? i forgot lol T_T), and then it would have to "reload". I'm strongly against the new nydus worm as well compared to, say, a nydus rocket launcher that would resemble Zerg Drop Pods from the campaign (with a cooldown), or the new Overlord drop. Infinite tunnels are some of the most theoretically powerful and devastating tools in RTS and they should not be thrown around lightly for cheap money imo. If the warp prism all of a sudden becomes deliberately strong for its cheap cost, increasingly mobile and durable, etc., to compensate for other flaws of the race (forward pylons being weak, Protoss mobility being weak), we might have missed the mark again. I would not be surprised to see late-game Protoss turn into "only camp&defend while testing waters with Prisms to open up an opportunity to move out". But that might be what designers and Protoss players want? Dunno
Well said.
At this point there is a long way to balance ahead, if Blizz keeps the changes (which i hope they do).
Your concerns regarding the warp prism could maybe be solved implementing the need of an upgrade for the warp prism to warp in fast. It would not be that big of a problem in the late-game, or would it?
On the other hand a warp prism will always have to compete with a forward pylon + gateway (250 min and long build time).
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On August 23 2015 17:15 GrandSmurf wrote:
The other races has tons of cheeses and tricks up their sleeves,
Race. not races. Terran has no tricks up their sleeves bar proxy 2 rax.
And cloaked banshees. Terran is definitely less gimicky than 'Toss and more solid (and in fact, is now just straight-up better than Toss, although I doubt that'll be the case come launch). Terran also rewards skill more, IMO.
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SoCal732 Posts
On August 24 2015 06:39 jpg06051992 wrote:
First off, totally agree that invincible Nydus needs to go, it's just dumb, kind of like drop at hatch tech.
highly disagree with both of these
previously, nydus was literally unusable in anything above platinum league because all you ahd to do was have vision of your entire base and you could respond/kill it before it came up. you had to be playing against a player that was seriously oblivious in order to kill him with a nydus worm
even like this, you can quickly kill the worm as soon as it pops, provided you have vision of your base. the units come out one by one so for the most part it is mostly a non factor. it was previously BS that if you were out of position, a bunch of scvs quickly pulled off the line could come close to, if not completely, kill the nydus worm.
i'd have to see some pretty damning evidence to consider it OP, honestly.
as for hatch tech drops, if you look at the current map pool, protoss and terran players can very frequently get away with greedy builds with near impunity. this used to be the case in every version of the game too, zerg simply had no way of countering greedy builds because they had no way to break down or pass by a wall, cost effectively AND without sacrificing economy. meanwhile, for instance, a terran could open up with a greedy build, build 4-6 hellions, and apply pressure. its about time we got some early game love especially since the game starts with 12 workers now.
hatch tech drops require a gas investment that, right now, a zerg player doesn't want to make versus a terran player opening with a fast CC. if they're not going for speed+banes, and only use 25 gas to create the overlord, then resume mining..slowlings aren't a gigantic issue, they're simply some light harassment.
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MY opinion as a casual player and fan who watches lots of Starcraft.
One of the big aspects of this game that draws me and lots of more people is the special thing they (Blizzard) got going by using three completely different and unique races and being able to identify and enjoy playing with one of them. This is a game, maybe a very mature game, but a game nonetheless, and a purpose of every game is to have fun. And people choose a race to both win and have fun.
I am a big AOE fan and I loved to play that game. Back then, after playing for many years, I was a little unsatisfied because all civilizations had the same "core" and just some features that made them "different". It was cool. And fun! I just wished all races were completely different. That's why eventually me and friends (and lots of people) started playing with random civilizations, because it was essentially the same. And BOOM I met Starcraft, and I was a very happy camper.
Point is, MULEs, injection, and chrono boost is such a race specific for me and its part of what makes them special. Yeah its very hard to balance a game where civilizations are completely different, but taking those things out its making all three civilizations closer to each other, or, the same"er". That's how I see it.
And cheeses, come one, cheeses! I enjoy them. Like a lot. I get excited when in a bo7 on the last game MVP is about to proxy rax Squirtle. Balls of steel. Or Naniwa proxy gate Hyun on final game. Madness. Most memorable games for me. Maybe no skill? But being greedy is like living your life without fearing death, and time to time, you just have to feel that fear again, and change the way you live.
I just love the whole package: macro, cheese, three races. Let's hope for the best.
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