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4713 Posts
On August 23 2015 17:12 Estancia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2015 13:03 MorroW wrote:
Through out my days of Starcraft 2 I've talked to a lot of Protoss players and most of them never played by the odds more than respective players from the other races because they wanted to or because it was their style. They did it because their race forced them into doing so. There are so many Protosses out there that looked for consistency in their builds but when crunch time came around they often found themselves playing the gamblers game more than they had originally wanted. These are the kind of players - players like Rain (notorious for predictable play) that will probably find more success in an environment like this and I think that is great.
I welcome this new "Protoss". Damn I remember during Rain's peak, where he was being criticized for his very predictable play, he got once sniped really hard on Proleague by a zerg player - I can't remember who - and it all came down to a single overseer contaminating the robotics bay delaying the colossus long enough for the zerg player to break through the defense. Totally agree on this one - Its very hard to be consistent as protoss because of its gimmicky nature; If you try to find some solid, stable builds you end up like Rain (predictable). Probably because of the fact that protoss T1 is shit and it forces Protoss for quick tech to T3. If in LotV Protoss T1 and T2 becomes solid, and becomes less reliant on T3, I can see Protoss moving away from being a "gimmicky" race and become much more solid again. This would also mean less frustration for people playing against protss too, now that they won't get screwed by stupid all ins and random shit that can end the game.
You'd be surprised to hear that that promising Zerg player was in fact Solar ^^
On topic, I agree with Morrow's thoughts, the removal of volatility across the board but especially in the case of Protoss can only be beneficial for the game. Yes the race will in fact be weak for very long periods of time and will probably have to undergo tons of patches even after release, but in the end the race will be more solid overall and better off once the dust settles.
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A simple rule of thumb as a Protoss is whenever you feel that you need to "hide" a Pylon to prepare an attack is a pretty good indicator of what you're doing is pretty nasty.
Why didn't anyone tell me 
Oh wait, they did..
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Norway839 Posts
Nice post! 
As MorroW pointed out, Warp Prism in LOTV has to move all the way from the Protoss base before it becomes a real threat.
However, it still acts as an UNLIMITED warp-in tunnel once it's there. This is different from Medivac or Overlord that has to 'reload' units that need to walk across the map first. Not much of an issue for Zerg usually, but for Terran, absolutely.
Anyway back to the prism. Still only 200 minerals (?), and it takes on average way, way more resources to deflect it than 200 minerals. I think it is unjustified to nerf the forward Pylon hard into the ground while leaving the Warp Prism untouched. The warp prism still acts as an unlimited warp-in tunnel and unlike a Medivac or Overlord it will never stop until killed. Its real threat value isn't 200 minerals, it can be as much as 1500-2000 minerals and gas, sometimes 3000+. With a warp-in time of less than two seconds, even stronger than before. For T and Z (and P), this type of guessing game feels gimmicky from a player perspective. At least in Brood War, you knew that a Shuttle could only contain max 2 archons or 2 reavers (eh maybe just 1? i forgot lol T_T), and then it would have to "reload". I'm strongly against the new nydus worm as well compared to, say, a nydus rocket launcher that would resemble Zerg Drop Pods from the campaign (with a cooldown), or the new Overlord drop.
Infinite tunnels are some of the most theoretically powerful and devastating tools in RTS and they should not be thrown around lightly for cheap money imo. If the warp prism all of a sudden becomes deliberately strong for its cheap cost, increasingly mobile and durable, etc., to compensate for other flaws of the race (forward pylons being weak, Protoss mobility being weak), we might have missed the mark again. I would not be surprised to see late-game Protoss turn into "only camp&defend while testing waters with Prisms to open up an opportunity to move out". But that might be what designers and Protoss players want? Dunno
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On August 23 2015 20:44 Liquid`Snute wrote:Nice post! As MorroW pointed out, Warp Prism in LOTV has to move all the way from the Protoss base before it becomes a real threat. However, it still acts as an UNLIMITED warp-in tunnel once it's there. This is different from Medivac or Overlord that has to 'reload' units that need to walk across the map first. Not much of an issue for Zerg usually, but for Terran, absolutely. Anyway back to the prism. Still only 200 minerals (?), and it takes on average way, way more resources to deflect it than 200 minerals. I think it is unjustified to nerf the forward Pylon hard into the ground while leaving the Warp Prism untouched. The warp prism still acts as an unlimited warp-in tunnel and unlike a Medivac or Overlord it will never stop until killed. Its real threat value isn't 200 minerals, it can be as much as 1500-2000 minerals and gas, sometimes 3000+. With a warp-in time of less than two seconds, even stronger than before. For T and Z (and P), this type of guessing game feels gimmicky from a player perspective. At least in Brood War, you knew that a Shuttle could only contain max 2 archons or 2 reavers, and then it would have to "reload". I'm strongly against the new nydus worm as well compared to, say, a nydus rocket launcher that would resemble Zerg Drop Pods from the campaign (with a cooldown), or the new Overlord drop. Infinite tunnels are some of the most theoretically powerful and devastating tools in RTS and they should not be thrown around lightly for cheap money imo. If the warp prism all of a sudden becomes deliberately strong for its cheap cost, increasingly mobile and durable, etc., to compensate for other flaws of the race (forward pylons being weak, Protoss mobility being weak), we might have missed the mark again. I would not be surprised to see late-game Protoss turn into "only camp&defend while testing waters with Prisms to open up an opportunity to move out". But that might be what designers and Protoss players want? Dunno
very well said
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On August 23 2015 19:14 Yonnua wrote:
Why on earth do you think #1 is a good thing? Drastically limiting the options one race can take to harass and forcing them more into turtley macro is not a good thing. Especially since this basically removes the unit from the game in that matchup. It is, in my opinion, one of the worst aspects of this change.
It would be fine if it was one of a number of limited options that Protoss has. But when they have a large number of early game ending cheeses that are hard/impossible (at lower levels) to scout for - then yes, it is good to eliminate at least this one.
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I feel people are not giving this lack of macro mechanics a real chance. It will make the game a lot less about achieving certain (all-in) timings. Mules, chronoboost and even inject larva all work towards giving a race an advantage at a certain point. In a way, it will reduce diversity, I suppose, but I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. There is already a great diversity in terms of units and abilities.
I personally hope that the macro mechanics are gone forever.
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On August 23 2015 21:05 DeadByDawn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2015 19:14 Yonnua wrote:
Why on earth do you think #1 is a good thing? Drastically limiting the options one race can take to harass and forcing them more into turtley macro is not a good thing. Especially since this basically removes the unit from the game in that matchup. It is, in my opinion, one of the worst aspects of this change. It would be fine if it was one of a number of limited options that Protoss has. But when they have a large number of early game ending cheeses that are hard/impossible (at lower levels) to scout for - then yes, it is good to eliminate at least this one.
It's not about cheese - it brutalises any harassment options whatsoever, so cheese still happens, but any macro play that isn't turtling literally can't. if you want boring NR20 games, sure, but that makes the game less fun and less entertaining to watch.
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Personally I think the prism should not have the buffed warpin, and we should "buff" the actual warpin to +/- 8-10 seconds while letting defenders warpin remain at 2 seconds. Maybe make a robotics bay upgrade that allows the prism to warpin at 2 seconds or something, like a 200/200 upgrade.
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On August 23 2015 20:44 Liquid`Snute wrote:Nice post! As MorroW pointed out, Warp Prism in LOTV has to move all the way from the Protoss base before it becomes a real threat. However, it still acts as an UNLIMITED warp-in tunnel once it's there. This is different from Medivac or Overlord that has to 'reload' units that need to walk across the map first. Not much of an issue for Zerg usually, but for Terran, absolutely. Anyway back to the prism. Still only 200 minerals (?), and it takes on average way, way more resources to deflect it than 200 minerals. I think it is unjustified to nerf the forward Pylon hard into the ground while leaving the Warp Prism untouched. The warp prism still acts as an unlimited warp-in tunnel and unlike a Medivac or Overlord it will never stop until killed. Its real threat value isn't 200 minerals, it can be as much as 1500-2000 minerals and gas, sometimes 3000+. With a warp-in time of less than two seconds, even stronger than before. For T and Z (and P), this type of guessing game feels gimmicky from a player perspective. At least in Brood War, you knew that a Shuttle could only contain max 2 archons or 2 reavers, and then it would have to "reload". I'm strongly against the new nydus worm as well compared to, say, a nydus rocket launcher that would resemble Zerg Drop Pods from the campaign (with a cooldown), or the new Overlord drop. Infinite tunnels are some of the most theoretically powerful and devastating tools in RTS and they should not be thrown around lightly for cheap money imo. If the warp prism all of a sudden becomes deliberately strong for its cheap cost, increasingly mobile and durable, etc., to compensate for other flaws of the race (forward pylons being weak, Protoss mobility being weak), we might have missed the mark again. I would not be surprised to see late-game Protoss turn into "only camp&defend while testing waters with Prisms to open up an opportunity to move out". But that might be what designers and Protoss players want? Dunno
Fully agree on both, warp-ins and nydus worms.
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On August 23 2015 20:44 Liquid`Snute wrote:Nice post! As MorroW pointed out, Warp Prism in LOTV has to move all the way from the Protoss base before it becomes a real threat. However, it still acts as an UNLIMITED warp-in tunnel once it's there. This is different from Medivac or Overlord that has to 'reload' units that need to walk across the map first. Not much of an issue for Zerg usually, but for Terran, absolutely. Anyway back to the prism. Still only 200 minerals (?), and it takes on average way, way more resources to deflect it than 200 minerals. I think it is unjustified to nerf the forward Pylon hard into the ground while leaving the Warp Prism untouched. The warp prism still acts as an unlimited warp-in tunnel and unlike a Medivac or Overlord it will never stop until killed. Its real threat value isn't 200 minerals, it can be as much as 1500-2000 minerals and gas, sometimes 3000+. With a warp-in time of less than two seconds, even stronger than before. For T and Z (and P), this type of guessing game feels gimmicky from a player perspective. At least in Brood War, you knew that a Shuttle could only contain max 2 archons or 2 reavers (eh maybe just 1? i forgot lol T_T), and then it would have to "reload". I'm strongly against the new nydus worm as well compared to, say, a nydus rocket launcher that would resemble Zerg Drop Pods from the campaign (with a cooldown), or the new Overlord drop. Infinite tunnels are some of the most theoretically powerful and devastating tools in RTS and they should not be thrown around lightly for cheap money imo. If the warp prism all of a sudden becomes deliberately strong for its cheap cost, increasingly mobile and durable, etc., to compensate for other flaws of the race (forward pylons being weak, Protoss mobility being weak), we might have missed the mark again. I would not be surprised to see late-game Protoss turn into "only camp&defend while testing waters with Prisms to open up an opportunity to move out". But that might be what designers and Protoss players want? Dunno
Thanks for that, we need people to point out how stupidly broken the warp prism has become for its cost. I especially like that you point out that they're running the risk of making the warp prism imbalanced just to make up for Protoss' current weaknesses instead of working on those weaknesses, hence missing the point and creating bad design again.
I definitely think the warp prism, if it is to stay as retardedly strong as it is currently with 2 sec warp-ins and infinite range pick-ups, should 1) have a robotics bay requirement 2) cost some gas. There is absolutely zero question invincible Nydus should and will be scrapped at some point too.
Oh, and by the way : revert that warp-in change and split energy and warp-in power
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Heard most of this stuff on stream but it's nice to hear it again. Recently have really become a fan!
On a side note... is there (should there be?) a running list of top tier Terrans who have given up on their race? Demuslim, Morrow, Happy..?
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I honestly quit playing because of protoss 2 base all ins. I'm excited to try this again.
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On August 23 2015 23:49 Koromon wrote:
Heard most of this stuff on stream but it's nice to hear it again. Recently have really become a fan!
On a side note... is there (should there be?) a running list of top tier Terrans who have given up on their race? Demuslim, Morrow, Happy..?
Avilo switched back to HotS - I know he is not top tier but maybe we should also consider those giving up on LotV.
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On August 23 2015 21:58 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2015 21:05 DeadByDawn wrote:On August 23 2015 19:14 Yonnua wrote:
Why on earth do you think #1 is a good thing? Drastically limiting the options one race can take to harass and forcing them more into turtley macro is not a good thing. Especially since this basically removes the unit from the game in that matchup. It is, in my opinion, one of the worst aspects of this change. It would be fine if it was one of a number of limited options that Protoss has. But when they have a large number of early game ending cheeses that are hard/impossible (at lower levels) to scout for - then yes, it is good to eliminate at least this one. It's not about cheese - it brutalises any harassment options whatsoever, so cheese still happens, but any macro play that isn't turtling literally can't. if you want boring NR20 games, sure, but that makes the game less fun and less entertaining to watch.
Except that what you mentioned (DTs) is the cheesiest play in Starcraft - so umm - what did you mean exactly? Early harass is still possible but the player has to make it slightly beefier (with a little more units), or catch the opponent out of position - i.e. not cheesy.
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On August 23 2015 23:49 Koromon wrote:
Heard most of this stuff on stream but it's nice to hear it again. Recently have really become a fan!
On a side note... is there (should there be?) a running list of top tier Terrans who have given up on their race? Demuslim, Morrow, Happy..?
Demu just said he was worried about the current state of the game, the marauders being weak, and the overall direction LOTV is heading to - did he actually mention he gave up terran as well?
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SoCal8910 Posts
On August 23 2015 20:44 Liquid`Snute wrote:Nice post! As MorroW pointed out, Warp Prism in LOTV has to move all the way from the Protoss base before it becomes a real threat. However, it still acts as an UNLIMITED warp-in tunnel once it's there. This is different from Medivac or Overlord that has to 'reload' units that need to walk across the map first. Not much of an issue for Zerg usually, but for Terran, absolutely. Anyway back to the prism. Still only 200 minerals (?), and it takes on average way, way more resources to deflect it than 200 minerals. I think it is unjustified to nerf the forward Pylon hard into the ground while leaving the Warp Prism untouched. The warp prism still acts as an unlimited warp-in tunnel and unlike a Medivac or Overlord it will never stop until killed. Its real threat value isn't 200 minerals, it can be as much as 1500-2000 minerals and gas, sometimes 3000+. With a warp-in time of less than two seconds, even stronger than before. For T and Z (and P), this type of guessing game feels gimmicky from a player perspective. At least in Brood War, you knew that a Shuttle could only contain max 2 archons or 2 reavers (eh maybe just 1? i forgot lol T_T), and then it would have to "reload". I'm strongly against the new nydus worm as well compared to, say, a nydus rocket launcher that would resemble Zerg Drop Pods from the campaign (with a cooldown), or the new Overlord drop. Infinite tunnels are some of the most theoretically powerful and devastating tools in RTS and they should not be thrown around lightly for cheap money imo. If the warp prism all of a sudden becomes deliberately strong for its cheap cost, increasingly mobile and durable, etc., to compensate for other flaws of the race (forward pylons being weak, Protoss mobility being weak), we might have missed the mark again. I would not be surprised to see late-game Protoss turn into "only camp&defend while testing waters with Prisms to open up an opportunity to move out". But that might be what designers and Protoss players want? Dunno
Not to mention that with 9 range pickups, protoss players can essentially get blink for just 200g on top of the 2 second warp ins.
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On August 23 2015 20:44 Liquid`Snute wrote:Nice post! As MorroW pointed out, Warp Prism in LOTV has to move all the way from the Protoss base before it becomes a real threat. However, it still acts as an UNLIMITED warp-in tunnel once it's there. This is different from Medivac or Overlord that has to 'reload' units that need to walk across the map first. Not much of an issue for Zerg usually, but for Terran, absolutely. Anyway back to the prism. Still only 200 minerals (?), and it takes on average way, way more resources to deflect it than 200 minerals. I think it is unjustified to nerf the forward Pylon hard into the ground while leaving the Warp Prism untouched. The warp prism still acts as an unlimited warp-in tunnel and unlike a Medivac or Overlord it will never stop until killed. Its real threat value isn't 200 minerals, it can be as much as 1500-2000 minerals and gas, sometimes 3000+. With a warp-in time of less than two seconds, even stronger than before. For T and Z (and P), this type of guessing game feels gimmicky from a player perspective. At least in Brood War, you knew that a Shuttle could only contain max 2 archons or 2 reavers (eh maybe just 1? i forgot lol T_T), and then it would have to "reload". I'm strongly against the new nydus worm as well compared to, say, a nydus rocket launcher that would resemble Zerg Drop Pods from the campaign (with a cooldown), or the new Overlord drop. Infinite tunnels are some of the most theoretically powerful and devastating tools in RTS and they should not be thrown around lightly for cheap money imo. If the warp prism all of a sudden becomes deliberately strong for its cheap cost, increasingly mobile and durable, etc., to compensate for other flaws of the race (forward pylons being weak, Protoss mobility being weak), we might have missed the mark again. I would not be surprised to see late-game Protoss turn into "only camp&defend while testing waters with Prisms to open up an opportunity to move out". But that might be what designers and Protoss players want? Dunno
I'm totally with you that warp prisms are likely going to prove to be too strong, but I would like to temper your comments with the point that the warp prism requires a bank of both minerals/gas and free supply in order to be such a large tunnel. This makes it a more significant opportunity cost investment than your post implies. That 3000+ resource threat requires a 3000+ resource bank, and the gateways to support that.
Remember that broodwar had the arbiter, where you could very quickly transport huge amounts of units almost instantly. Now it's true that the arbiter was a significant gas investment, but it also had other utility and far more shields/hp.
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It certainly is a step in the right direction, taken us a very long time to get to this point and I only wish they had started much much sooner, Forcefields lasted 5 years. Better late than never I suppose.
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I agree with you on most points, but real talk protoss is a lot more boring without chronoboost management, nerf it all you want to make us unable to do "gimmicky stuff" but leave it be, it's a LOT more strategic than mules and injects.
Personally I don't like the idea of having your entire aggression relying on a warp prism, it's dumb, not too strong (biased snuty ~~), but dumb.
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Canada13389 Posts
On August 24 2015 05:02 PtitDrogo wrote:
I agree with you on most points, but real talk protoss is a lot more boring without chronoboost management, nerf it all you want to make us unable to do "gimmicky stuff" but leave it be, it's a LOT more strategic than mules and injects.
Personally I don't like the idea of having your entire aggression relying on a warp prism, it's dumb, not too strong (biased snuty ~~), but dumb.
I am kinda with drogo here -- some form of nerfed chronoboost would be very nice to have for strategic depth.
It could be even just 25% faster for twice the duration at twice the energy.
This would still offer a lot more depth to toss. Even if you make unable to cast on nexus if you are worried about probe building speed.
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EPT
