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Throughout the entirety of Starcraft 2 Protoss has always been the most gimmicky/cheesy race in the game. Not until I read the latest post from David Kim did I really think about this topic too much, I guess the years have gone by and Protoss being a pretty silly race as a whole have just been something that I've accepted and not really thought about as much anymore.
If you're interested in David Kims post you can find it here:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/18705072378
This of course has a lot of reasons to it and I wanted to talk about this and why I think Protoss is taking major leaps forward in terms of design in that aspect.
So there's a lot of fuss going on right now about the macro mechanics of Starcraft 2, whether or not it should stay in the game. Well, I don't really want to talk about that here. Instead I want to talk about the implications they have upon Protoss along with other changes that has happened so far in Legacy. So keep in mind that this is all assuming that the new changes with the warp gate, chrono boost, mule etc stays in the game.
With that said - here's my top five list (not in order), enjoy!
1: MULE Removed
Terran will no longer think holding onto 50 energy as money they are missing out from a mule, rather it's 50 energy that can be spent to gain 8 supply (from supply drop). But in early game since command centers already give so much supply most of the time you'll find yourself not needing to actually burn this kind of energy immediately like you would with a mule.
Another way to approach it is to say the straight up "cost" from a scan has gone from about 270 minerals to 100 (disregarding mining time lost)
What this means is that Dark Templar rushes in general does not make as much sense anymore. The odds of this "cheap" strategy working should go down by a notable margin.
Keep in mind however that Terrans right now don't rush orbital commands as soon as the barracks is done like they used to because it takes a longer time for the orbital to pay for itself compared to before. Anyway how the actual build orders will look for Terran when they will get their orbitals I can't really say right now.
2: Chrono Boost removed
I also talked about this in my previous post in the macro mechanics topic but I'll try to not sound too repetitive. Chrono boost has pretty much always been the back bone of every single Protoss all in or timings in general. Without chrono boost the possibilities of Protoss go down. The ability to just shove all your energy down one direction is mostly what has enabled Protoss to push their "cheese" to the limits.
To be more concrete, a Protoss that is allinning will not be able to squeeze out warp tech quicker than a Protoss who is playing macro game for example.
The "five different blink timings" that you had to consider will now be maybe only a couple.
Suddenly as a Terran or as a Zerg you pretty much have an easier time deducting what the Protoss is doing. Not only are their timings weaker in itself through chrono boost removal - but having fewer options to begin with makes the choices you have left weaker as well (this is a big deal).
3: The new Warp Tech
This is something David Kim himself stated to be one of the biggest - if not the biggest reason to why Protoss shouldn't feel so "dirty" anymore and I can echo that.
I used to be a Zerg player myself and back in the day it was considered very gimmicky to lose to gateway allins and the reason why they were seen as so gimmicky was not because it was an all in that we needed to scout their main base for with an overlord. It was seen as gimmicky because it boiled down to the game of "hide and seek" with the god damn probe and pylon that we HAD to find with our 2-4 zerglings or we would just randomly lose to this stuff.
Of course it's 2015 now and it's not really considered gimmicky anymore to do a four gate timing on Zergs third while hes droning up because these days you can somewhat reliably get this pylon up with the help of your mothership core and singular gateway units.
Apply this thought-process to warp prisms versus hidden pylons and it's not really as "cheesy" anymore. It's definitely not gimmicky because a lot of the randomness is removed from the fact that the warp prism will come across the map from the Protoss base at a pre-determined time-stamp in the game rather than being a game of "hide-and-seek". Looking at the game as it is right now in Legacy you will most likely be using warp prisms for most (if not all) your attacks.
So you could say that warp gate mechanic is perhaps not very gimmicky but it is a big contributor to why these kind of shenanigans can work in the first place. Increasing it's risk tenfold (by double damage and 16 second warp-in) will perhaps not end the days of hidden pylons on the map (or your main) but it will severely decrease the amount of times you lose randomly because you missed an inch of the map with your scout.
A simple rule of thumb as a Protoss is whenever you feel that you need to "hide" a Pylon to prepare an attack is a pretty good indicator of what you're doing is pretty nasty.
4: Ravager
Let me paint you a picture of the most gimmicky ways you can ever lose a game of Starcraft 2. Everything is looking good, you're hitting your injects, good map vision, economy advantage and you're massing a bunch of roaches and feel confident that you will beat this Protoss opponent of yours. Suddenly out of the blue you notice your natural ramp has been force fielded and a warp prism starts warping in units like crazy. GG get out.
So what most players would tell you here is that you did a mistake, you forgot to cover your main ramp with an overlord to spot a possible warp prism coming in. You could have been a lot better than your opponent at this game but it doesn't really matter if you don't remember to cover up these basics. This along with dark templars, along with finding that "one" pylon on the map and all this other kind of stuff just adds to the "to-do list" against any given Protoss player. You don't feel outplayed, in fact you feel that your opponent cheated you of your win and that's what I'm trying to get at here. These are the "gimmicky ways to randomly die to Protoss" that I'm glad we're moving away from in Legacy.
Ravager is a huge tool for Zerg, one of my favorite add-ons to the game. Finally a way to actually deal with force fields.
5: 12 Worker Start
I'm not sure if I should call proxy gates or proxy raxes gimmicky, at least I can say with confidence that it is cheesy as hell. Legacy in general is pretty much putting a stop to the dreaded 6 pools, 2rax and proxy gates because you start with more workers (simple and effective). I'm sure there will pop up similar strategies to this (just the other day I was three gate adepted with two of the gates proxied) but in general these kind of strategies will probably not ever be as potent as they have been in the past five years.
So there you go guys, that's my top 5 list of why Protoss doesn't feel as cheesy anymore. David Kim mentioned stuff like "proxy banshees" in his post which has not actually been a real strategy since 2010. Protoss still has their whole tech tree in disposal to proxy and call it a somewhat viable cheese. Regardless if Protoss stays the most "cheesy" race or the race with most build orders at their disposal I think this race has taken major leaps into becoming a well designed race.
Just in general I think people don't really realize how volatile or "rng" based Starcraft is or can become just by adding maps like Bridgehead or what-have-you map to the map pool or adding new units, early game strategies. David Kim talks about these new things but he also says that they need to be able to be scouted. We don't want a game where everyone goes same build every game because "everything else sucks" but at the same time we need to keep in mind that any new or changed variable can easily turn the game for the worse. Protoss has always been the "wild card" in any match-up and I think its healthy for the game that if you want to be - you can be a "wild card" with the other races or stray away from it for the most part with Protoss. Watching casters talk about Protoss and Protoss only for the first 8 minutes of the game gets old quickly, it's simply too lop-sided so its nice to see them evening it out a bit in Legacy.
Through out my days of Starcraft 2 I've talked to a lot of Protoss players and most of them never played by the odds more than respective players from the other races because they wanted to or because it was their style. They did it because their race forced them into doing so. There are so many Protosses out there that looked for consistency in their builds but when crunch time came around they often found themselves playing the gamblers game more than they had originally wanted. These are the kind of players - players like Rain (notorious for predictable play) that will probably find more success in an environment like this and I think that is great.
The more build orders and options a race has the more coin flippy the players of said race has to play (sorry if I sound repetitive). Blizzard has to push Protoss to a 50% winratio and if you don't have as many options or "curve-balls" to throw at your opponent the less you will win and naturally your race will be buffed accordingly.
Lastly I don't want to leave on a bad notion here saying that Protoss is the devil or something like that. The other races has tons of cheeses and tricks up their sleeves, even more so than HotS. But hopefully I got the message across to why I think Protoss is heading in the right direction in Legacy. After a lot of thought I think the removal of chrono boost is a good thing for the race and I hope that you guys think so as well.
I welcome this new "Protoss".
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the sc2 philosopher has spoken
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Couldn't they just slow down the ratio of chrono on units/upgrades, and keep it the same on probes?
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Have you ever tried to play more ZvP ? Because the way the Adept works and make us be more defensive in the early stage of the game doesn't help the cheesiness at all. I feel like, even though each adept costs 25 gas, they have more options because of the adepts being able to switch both bases with ease.
And even if the zerg successfully defended it, it means he had spent a ton of units for defenses.
This game just feels more silly than before.
Sorry but I don't welcome the "new" protoss 
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Still prefered the older concept of the disruptor. It felt like it had a higher skillcap and felt more authentic. More like a reaver I guess
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Another quality analysis.
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On August 23 2015 14:07 RaiZ wrote:
Have you ever tried to play more ZvP ? Because the way the Adept works and make us be more defensive in the early stage of the game doesn't help the cheesiness at all. I feel like, even though each adept costs 25 gas, they have more options because of the adepts being able to switch both bases with ease.
David Kim mentioned about nerfing Adept sometime in the future bc right now they are very strong in the early game. Not sure what Adept will finally look like but let's hope it is in the direction where a zerg player doesn't feel too defensive.
Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/legacy-of-the-void/493092-community-feeback-update-august-21
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Read this post and agreed with everything on it, good analysis Morrow the Forrow.
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Israel2209 Posts
On August 23 2015 13:03 MorroW wrote:
I welcome this new "Protoss".
As our overlords?
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On August 23 2015 13:03 MorroW wrote:
Through out my days of Starcraft 2 I've talked to a lot of Protoss players and most of them never played by the odds more than respective players from the other races because they wanted to or because it was their style. They did it because their race forced them into doing so. There are so many Protosses out there that looked for consistency in their builds but when crunch time came around they often found themselves playing the gamblers game more than they had originally wanted. These are the kind of players - players like Rain (notorious for predictable play) that will probably find more success in an environment like this and I think that is great.
I welcome this new "Protoss".
Damn I remember during Rain's peak, where he was being criticized for his very predictable play, he got once sniped really hard on Proleague by a zerg player - I can't remember who - and it all came down to a single overseer contaminating the robotics bay delaying the colossus long enough for the zerg player to break through the defense.
Totally agree on this one - Its very hard to be consistent as protoss because of its gimmicky nature; If you try to find some solid, stable builds you end up like Rain (predictable). Probably because of the fact that protoss T1 is shit and it forces Protoss for quick tech to T3. If in LotV Protoss T1 and T2 becomes solid, and becomes less reliant on T3, I can see Protoss moving away from being a "gimmicky" race and become much more solid again. This would also mean less frustration for people playing against protss too, now that they won't get screwed by stupid all ins and random shit that can end the game.
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The other races has tons of cheeses and tricks up their sleeves,
Race. not races. Terran has no tricks up their sleeves bar proxy 2 rax.
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On August 23 2015 14:07 RaiZ wrote:Have you ever tried to play more ZvP ? Because the way the Adept works and make us be more defensive in the early stage of the game doesn't help the cheesiness at all. I feel like, even though each adept costs 25 gas, they have more options because of the adepts being able to switch both bases with ease. And even if the zerg successfully defended it, it means he had spent a ton of units for defenses. This game just feels more silly than before. Sorry but I don't welcome the "new" protoss
Disagree, single gas gives away the Adept opening instantly and leaves you sufficient time to prepare for it, most GM level Beta Zergs I watch open an almost standard speedling expand and while Adepts are great against light units they get overwhelmed without Zealot support and the Zergling speed kind of nullifies their ability to dance around you with the shade. If you see they are pressuring with Adepts and building Zealots behind it you have more then ample time to prepare with Roaches which stomp both units handily.
I agree with everything Morrow, very good post, I also welcome this new era of Protoss, the incentive to harass with Warp Prisms is going to allow crazy multitasking to be a real thing for the race, allowing real mechanics to truly shine through rather then executing cookie cutter all ins, the new defensively strong warp in allowing Protoss to fluidly respond to harassment for base defense as well.
Extremely excited, Colossus still needs to be removed from the game though, and Immortals made with a better ability.
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Another way to approach it is to say the straight up "cost" from a scan has gone from about 270 minerals to 100 (disregarding mining time lost)
Well the difference isn't quite that much. The value of a mule is closer to 200 minerals and with supply calldown you also need to take into account that the scv could be mining meanwhile which makes the value around 130.
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I was always really surprised they left chronoboost in as long as they did. It really was one of the main reasons Protoss was forced into cheesing. The warp gate thing too seems like perhaps a step in the right direction but wow, it changes the game so much. Auto inject... while simultaneously removing mules. I play random, I have since Wings of Liberty, I thought ZvT was already taking half as much skill as TvZ for moderate skill players like myself, but I'm pretty sure I'll never win another TvZ. That matchup changes completely.
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I agree with u morrow  patato
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Why on earth do you think #1 is a good thing? Drastically limiting the options one race can take to harass and forcing them more into turtley macro is not a good thing. Especially since this basically removes the unit from the game in that matchup. It is, in my opinion, one of the worst aspects of this change.
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Potatiwa agrees, Morrow still relevant.
Still, without mulers, i can finally learn to consistently build workers. xD
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Weirdly I played three TvPs today (since 80% of my opponents are zerg, this is weird). Every single toss all-inned me. Every single time I scouted the all-in (at different times, but still quite soon). Every single time I lost.
Of course these are just three games, and in no way significant. And I also have to relearn how to deal with toss all-ins without mules. However I do think this topic is overly optimistic. For example point 1, no more mules, so more scans, right? Minus that I really don't think it makes sense to still make OCs as soon as possible, so you might early game very well have fewer scans.
And sure without chronoboost they hit everything bit later, but without mules so does my economy. And additionally every worker killed by their DT/oracle/disciple/whatever else they used hits me alot harder than when I still had double OC for mules.
Don't get me wrong: I am not saying protoss all-ins are OP (maybe they are, maybe they are not, I simply don't have enough games and reference material to make any reasonable suggestion regarding that), but I am saying this seems like really overly optimistic about toss being less gimmicky.
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One aspect of Protoss that I'm just beginning to grasp after dozens of games is that the lack of chrono makes it much harder to play reactive. I've had many games where I see a spire almost finishing, and I think I'm fortunate because I have a small gas bank and a Stargate already complete. I start a second Stargate and Fleet Beacon, as well as Blink. Whereas in HotS/LotV-with-chrono, where the dedicated Mutalisk defense receives something like a dozen chronos to get everything out in time, I'm usually dying to the muta switch that I see from a mile away just because I cannot get the tech out nearly as fast I expect to.
The optimist in me thinks that the strengthened super-flexible Gateway and Protosses learning to scout better will make up for this, but it might end up that Protoss will be balanced around a powerful/inflexible midgame. And even though Gateway on paper is extremely flexible, the Twilight Council ensures that the flexibility is deceptive. In all matchups, you're really unlikely to make units that haven't received the respective Twilight upgrade and you feel like you're on the back foot when you're forced to make blink-less Stalkers, normal Adepts, and chargeless Zealots. Having three very powerful upgrades on the same building that can't be sped up ensures that it takes time for your Gateway units to feel like it's ready to fight in the mid-game. I wouldn't be surprised if someone innovated a double twilight style.
This is no doubt really early theorycrafting, but the removal of chrono does restrict the Protoss's flexibility, and I'm worried that might come back to bite when the balancing is done. I don't care about Blink/Dt/Oracle 1-base cheese flexibility, I'm concerned about how the mid-game plays out.
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4713 Posts
On August 23 2015 17:12 Estancia wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2015 13:03 MorroW wrote:
Through out my days of Starcraft 2 I've talked to a lot of Protoss players and most of them never played by the odds more than respective players from the other races because they wanted to or because it was their style. They did it because their race forced them into doing so. There are so many Protosses out there that looked for consistency in their builds but when crunch time came around they often found themselves playing the gamblers game more than they had originally wanted. These are the kind of players - players like Rain (notorious for predictable play) that will probably find more success in an environment like this and I think that is great.
I welcome this new "Protoss". Damn I remember during Rain's peak, where he was being criticized for his very predictable play, he got once sniped really hard on Proleague by a zerg player - I can't remember who - and it all came down to a single overseer contaminating the robotics bay delaying the colossus long enough for the zerg player to break through the defense. Totally agree on this one - Its very hard to be consistent as protoss because of its gimmicky nature; If you try to find some solid, stable builds you end up like Rain (predictable). Probably because of the fact that protoss T1 is shit and it forces Protoss for quick tech to T3. If in LotV Protoss T1 and T2 becomes solid, and becomes less reliant on T3, I can see Protoss moving away from being a "gimmicky" race and become much more solid again. This would also mean less frustration for people playing against protss too, now that they won't get screwed by stupid all ins and random shit that can end the game.
You'd be surprised to hear that that promising Zerg player was in fact Solar ^^
On topic, I agree with Morrow's thoughts, the removal of volatility across the board but especially in the case of Protoss can only be beneficial for the game. Yes the race will in fact be weak for very long periods of time and will probably have to undergo tons of patches even after release, but in the end the race will be more solid overall and better off once the dust settles.
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A simple rule of thumb as a Protoss is whenever you feel that you need to "hide" a Pylon to prepare an attack is a pretty good indicator of what you're doing is pretty nasty.
Why didn't anyone tell me
Oh wait, they did..
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Norway839 Posts
Nice post!
As MorroW pointed out, Warp Prism in LOTV has to move all the way from the Protoss base before it becomes a real threat.
However, it still acts as an UNLIMITED warp-in tunnel once it's there. This is different from Medivac or Overlord that has to 'reload' units that need to walk across the map first. Not much of an issue for Zerg usually, but for Terran, absolutely.
Anyway back to the prism. Still only 200 minerals (?), and it takes on average way, way more resources to deflect it than 200 minerals. I think it is unjustified to nerf the forward Pylon hard into the ground while leaving the Warp Prism untouched. The warp prism still acts as an unlimited warp-in tunnel and unlike a Medivac or Overlord it will never stop until killed. Its real threat value isn't 200 minerals, it can be as much as 1500-2000 minerals and gas, sometimes 3000+. With a warp-in time of less than two seconds, even stronger than before. For T and Z (and P), this type of guessing game feels gimmicky from a player perspective. At least in Brood War, you knew that a Shuttle could only contain max 2 archons or 2 reavers (eh maybe just 1? i forgot lol T_T), and then it would have to "reload". I'm strongly against the new nydus worm as well compared to, say, a nydus rocket launcher that would resemble Zerg Drop Pods from the campaign (with a cooldown), or the new Overlord drop.
Infinite tunnels are some of the most theoretically powerful and devastating tools in RTS and they should not be thrown around lightly for cheap money imo. If the warp prism all of a sudden becomes deliberately strong for its cheap cost, increasingly mobile and durable, etc., to compensate for other flaws of the race (forward pylons being weak, Protoss mobility being weak), we might have missed the mark again. I would not be surprised to see late-game Protoss turn into "only camp&defend while testing waters with Prisms to open up an opportunity to move out". But that might be what designers and Protoss players want? Dunno
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On August 23 2015 20:44 Liquid`Snute wrote:Nice post! As MorroW pointed out, Warp Prism in LOTV has to move all the way from the Protoss base before it becomes a real threat. However, it still acts as an UNLIMITED warp-in tunnel once it's there. This is different from Medivac or Overlord that has to 'reload' units that need to walk across the map first. Not much of an issue for Zerg usually, but for Terran, absolutely. Anyway back to the prism. Still only 200 minerals (?), and it takes on average way, way more resources to deflect it than 200 minerals. I think it is unjustified to nerf the forward Pylon hard into the ground while leaving the Warp Prism untouched. The warp prism still acts as an unlimited warp-in tunnel and unlike a Medivac or Overlord it will never stop until killed. Its real threat value isn't 200 minerals, it can be as much as 1500-2000 minerals and gas, sometimes 3000+. With a warp-in time of less than two seconds, even stronger than before. For T and Z (and P), this type of guessing game feels gimmicky from a player perspective. At least in Brood War, you knew that a Shuttle could only contain max 2 archons or 2 reavers, and then it would have to "reload". I'm strongly against the new nydus worm as well compared to, say, a nydus rocket launcher that would resemble Zerg Drop Pods from the campaign (with a cooldown), or the new Overlord drop. Infinite tunnels are some of the most theoretically powerful and devastating tools in RTS and they should not be thrown around lightly for cheap money imo. If the warp prism all of a sudden becomes deliberately strong for its cheap cost, increasingly mobile and durable, etc., to compensate for other flaws of the race (forward pylons being weak, Protoss mobility being weak), we might have missed the mark again. I would not be surprised to see late-game Protoss turn into "only camp&defend while testing waters with Prisms to open up an opportunity to move out". But that might be what designers and Protoss players want? Dunno
very well said
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On August 23 2015 19:14 Yonnua wrote:
Why on earth do you think #1 is a good thing? Drastically limiting the options one race can take to harass and forcing them more into turtley macro is not a good thing. Especially since this basically removes the unit from the game in that matchup. It is, in my opinion, one of the worst aspects of this change.
It would be fine if it was one of a number of limited options that Protoss has. But when they have a large number of early game ending cheeses that are hard/impossible (at lower levels) to scout for - then yes, it is good to eliminate at least this one.
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I feel people are not giving this lack of macro mechanics a real chance. It will make the game a lot less about achieving certain (all-in) timings. Mules, chronoboost and even inject larva all work towards giving a race an advantage at a certain point. In a way, it will reduce diversity, I suppose, but I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing. There is already a great diversity in terms of units and abilities.
I personally hope that the macro mechanics are gone forever.
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On August 23 2015 21:05 DeadByDawn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2015 19:14 Yonnua wrote:
Why on earth do you think #1 is a good thing? Drastically limiting the options one race can take to harass and forcing them more into turtley macro is not a good thing. Especially since this basically removes the unit from the game in that matchup. It is, in my opinion, one of the worst aspects of this change. It would be fine if it was one of a number of limited options that Protoss has. But when they have a large number of early game ending cheeses that are hard/impossible (at lower levels) to scout for - then yes, it is good to eliminate at least this one.
It's not about cheese - it brutalises any harassment options whatsoever, so cheese still happens, but any macro play that isn't turtling literally can't. if you want boring NR20 games, sure, but that makes the game less fun and less entertaining to watch.
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Personally I think the prism should not have the buffed warpin, and we should "buff" the actual warpin to +/- 8-10 seconds while letting defenders warpin remain at 2 seconds. Maybe make a robotics bay upgrade that allows the prism to warpin at 2 seconds or something, like a 200/200 upgrade.
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On August 23 2015 20:44 Liquid`Snute wrote:Nice post! As MorroW pointed out, Warp Prism in LOTV has to move all the way from the Protoss base before it becomes a real threat. However, it still acts as an UNLIMITED warp-in tunnel once it's there. This is different from Medivac or Overlord that has to 'reload' units that need to walk across the map first. Not much of an issue for Zerg usually, but for Terran, absolutely. Anyway back to the prism. Still only 200 minerals (?), and it takes on average way, way more resources to deflect it than 200 minerals. I think it is unjustified to nerf the forward Pylon hard into the ground while leaving the Warp Prism untouched. The warp prism still acts as an unlimited warp-in tunnel and unlike a Medivac or Overlord it will never stop until killed. Its real threat value isn't 200 minerals, it can be as much as 1500-2000 minerals and gas, sometimes 3000+. With a warp-in time of less than two seconds, even stronger than before. For T and Z (and P), this type of guessing game feels gimmicky from a player perspective. At least in Brood War, you knew that a Shuttle could only contain max 2 archons or 2 reavers, and then it would have to "reload". I'm strongly against the new nydus worm as well compared to, say, a nydus rocket launcher that would resemble Zerg Drop Pods from the campaign (with a cooldown), or the new Overlord drop. Infinite tunnels are some of the most theoretically powerful and devastating tools in RTS and they should not be thrown around lightly for cheap money imo. If the warp prism all of a sudden becomes deliberately strong for its cheap cost, increasingly mobile and durable, etc., to compensate for other flaws of the race (forward pylons being weak, Protoss mobility being weak), we might have missed the mark again. I would not be surprised to see late-game Protoss turn into "only camp&defend while testing waters with Prisms to open up an opportunity to move out". But that might be what designers and Protoss players want? Dunno
Fully agree on both, warp-ins and nydus worms.
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On August 23 2015 20:44 Liquid`Snute wrote:Nice post! As MorroW pointed out, Warp Prism in LOTV has to move all the way from the Protoss base before it becomes a real threat. However, it still acts as an UNLIMITED warp-in tunnel once it's there. This is different from Medivac or Overlord that has to 'reload' units that need to walk across the map first. Not much of an issue for Zerg usually, but for Terran, absolutely. Anyway back to the prism. Still only 200 minerals (?), and it takes on average way, way more resources to deflect it than 200 minerals. I think it is unjustified to nerf the forward Pylon hard into the ground while leaving the Warp Prism untouched. The warp prism still acts as an unlimited warp-in tunnel and unlike a Medivac or Overlord it will never stop until killed. Its real threat value isn't 200 minerals, it can be as much as 1500-2000 minerals and gas, sometimes 3000+. With a warp-in time of less than two seconds, even stronger than before. For T and Z (and P), this type of guessing game feels gimmicky from a player perspective. At least in Brood War, you knew that a Shuttle could only contain max 2 archons or 2 reavers (eh maybe just 1? i forgot lol T_T), and then it would have to "reload". I'm strongly against the new nydus worm as well compared to, say, a nydus rocket launcher that would resemble Zerg Drop Pods from the campaign (with a cooldown), or the new Overlord drop. Infinite tunnels are some of the most theoretically powerful and devastating tools in RTS and they should not be thrown around lightly for cheap money imo. If the warp prism all of a sudden becomes deliberately strong for its cheap cost, increasingly mobile and durable, etc., to compensate for other flaws of the race (forward pylons being weak, Protoss mobility being weak), we might have missed the mark again. I would not be surprised to see late-game Protoss turn into "only camp&defend while testing waters with Prisms to open up an opportunity to move out". But that might be what designers and Protoss players want? Dunno
Thanks for that, we need people to point out how stupidly broken the warp prism has become for its cost. I especially like that you point out that they're running the risk of making the warp prism imbalanced just to make up for Protoss' current weaknesses instead of working on those weaknesses, hence missing the point and creating bad design again.
I definitely think the warp prism, if it is to stay as retardedly strong as it is currently with 2 sec warp-ins and infinite range pick-ups, should 1) have a robotics bay requirement 2) cost some gas. There is absolutely zero question invincible Nydus should and will be scrapped at some point too.
Oh, and by the way : revert that warp-in change and split energy and warp-in power
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Heard most of this stuff on stream but it's nice to hear it again. Recently have really become a fan!
On a side note... is there (should there be?) a running list of top tier Terrans who have given up on their race? Demuslim, Morrow, Happy..?
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I honestly quit playing because of protoss 2 base all ins. I'm excited to try this again.
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On August 23 2015 23:49 Koromon wrote:
Heard most of this stuff on stream but it's nice to hear it again. Recently have really become a fan!
On a side note... is there (should there be?) a running list of top tier Terrans who have given up on their race? Demuslim, Morrow, Happy..?
Avilo switched back to HotS - I know he is not top tier but maybe we should also consider those giving up on LotV.
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On August 23 2015 21:58 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2015 21:05 DeadByDawn wrote:On August 23 2015 19:14 Yonnua wrote:
Why on earth do you think #1 is a good thing? Drastically limiting the options one race can take to harass and forcing them more into turtley macro is not a good thing. Especially since this basically removes the unit from the game in that matchup. It is, in my opinion, one of the worst aspects of this change. It would be fine if it was one of a number of limited options that Protoss has. But when they have a large number of early game ending cheeses that are hard/impossible (at lower levels) to scout for - then yes, it is good to eliminate at least this one. It's not about cheese - it brutalises any harassment options whatsoever, so cheese still happens, but any macro play that isn't turtling literally can't. if you want boring NR20 games, sure, but that makes the game less fun and less entertaining to watch.
Except that what you mentioned (DTs) is the cheesiest play in Starcraft - so umm - what did you mean exactly? Early harass is still possible but the player has to make it slightly beefier (with a little more units), or catch the opponent out of position - i.e. not cheesy.
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On August 23 2015 23:49 Koromon wrote:
Heard most of this stuff on stream but it's nice to hear it again. Recently have really become a fan!
On a side note... is there (should there be?) a running list of top tier Terrans who have given up on their race? Demuslim, Morrow, Happy..?
Demu just said he was worried about the current state of the game, the marauders being weak, and the overall direction LOTV is heading to - did he actually mention he gave up terran as well?
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SoCal8910 Posts
On August 23 2015 20:44 Liquid`Snute wrote:Nice post! As MorroW pointed out, Warp Prism in LOTV has to move all the way from the Protoss base before it becomes a real threat. However, it still acts as an UNLIMITED warp-in tunnel once it's there. This is different from Medivac or Overlord that has to 'reload' units that need to walk across the map first. Not much of an issue for Zerg usually, but for Terran, absolutely. Anyway back to the prism. Still only 200 minerals (?), and it takes on average way, way more resources to deflect it than 200 minerals. I think it is unjustified to nerf the forward Pylon hard into the ground while leaving the Warp Prism untouched. The warp prism still acts as an unlimited warp-in tunnel and unlike a Medivac or Overlord it will never stop until killed. Its real threat value isn't 200 minerals, it can be as much as 1500-2000 minerals and gas, sometimes 3000+. With a warp-in time of less than two seconds, even stronger than before. For T and Z (and P), this type of guessing game feels gimmicky from a player perspective. At least in Brood War, you knew that a Shuttle could only contain max 2 archons or 2 reavers (eh maybe just 1? i forgot lol T_T), and then it would have to "reload". I'm strongly against the new nydus worm as well compared to, say, a nydus rocket launcher that would resemble Zerg Drop Pods from the campaign (with a cooldown), or the new Overlord drop. Infinite tunnels are some of the most theoretically powerful and devastating tools in RTS and they should not be thrown around lightly for cheap money imo. If the warp prism all of a sudden becomes deliberately strong for its cheap cost, increasingly mobile and durable, etc., to compensate for other flaws of the race (forward pylons being weak, Protoss mobility being weak), we might have missed the mark again. I would not be surprised to see late-game Protoss turn into "only camp&defend while testing waters with Prisms to open up an opportunity to move out". But that might be what designers and Protoss players want? Dunno
Not to mention that with 9 range pickups, protoss players can essentially get blink for just 200g on top of the 2 second warp ins.
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On August 23 2015 20:44 Liquid`Snute wrote:Nice post! As MorroW pointed out, Warp Prism in LOTV has to move all the way from the Protoss base before it becomes a real threat. However, it still acts as an UNLIMITED warp-in tunnel once it's there. This is different from Medivac or Overlord that has to 'reload' units that need to walk across the map first. Not much of an issue for Zerg usually, but for Terran, absolutely. Anyway back to the prism. Still only 200 minerals (?), and it takes on average way, way more resources to deflect it than 200 minerals. I think it is unjustified to nerf the forward Pylon hard into the ground while leaving the Warp Prism untouched. The warp prism still acts as an unlimited warp-in tunnel and unlike a Medivac or Overlord it will never stop until killed. Its real threat value isn't 200 minerals, it can be as much as 1500-2000 minerals and gas, sometimes 3000+. With a warp-in time of less than two seconds, even stronger than before. For T and Z (and P), this type of guessing game feels gimmicky from a player perspective. At least in Brood War, you knew that a Shuttle could only contain max 2 archons or 2 reavers (eh maybe just 1? i forgot lol T_T), and then it would have to "reload". I'm strongly against the new nydus worm as well compared to, say, a nydus rocket launcher that would resemble Zerg Drop Pods from the campaign (with a cooldown), or the new Overlord drop. Infinite tunnels are some of the most theoretically powerful and devastating tools in RTS and they should not be thrown around lightly for cheap money imo. If the warp prism all of a sudden becomes deliberately strong for its cheap cost, increasingly mobile and durable, etc., to compensate for other flaws of the race (forward pylons being weak, Protoss mobility being weak), we might have missed the mark again. I would not be surprised to see late-game Protoss turn into "only camp&defend while testing waters with Prisms to open up an opportunity to move out". But that might be what designers and Protoss players want? Dunno
I'm totally with you that warp prisms are likely going to prove to be too strong, but I would like to temper your comments with the point that the warp prism requires a bank of both minerals/gas and free supply in order to be such a large tunnel. This makes it a more significant opportunity cost investment than your post implies. That 3000+ resource threat requires a 3000+ resource bank, and the gateways to support that.
Remember that broodwar had the arbiter, where you could very quickly transport huge amounts of units almost instantly. Now it's true that the arbiter was a significant gas investment, but it also had other utility and far more shields/hp.
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It certainly is a step in the right direction, taken us a very long time to get to this point and I only wish they had started much much sooner, Forcefields lasted 5 years. Better late than never I suppose.
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I agree with you on most points, but real talk protoss is a lot more boring without chronoboost management, nerf it all you want to make us unable to do "gimmicky stuff" but leave it be, it's a LOT more strategic than mules and injects.
Personally I don't like the idea of having your entire aggression relying on a warp prism, it's dumb, not too strong (biased snuty ~~), but dumb.
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Canada13389 Posts
On August 24 2015 05:02 PtitDrogo wrote:
I agree with you on most points, but real talk protoss is a lot more boring without chronoboost management, nerf it all you want to make us unable to do "gimmicky stuff" but leave it be, it's a LOT more strategic than mules and injects.
Personally I don't like the idea of having your entire aggression relying on a warp prism, it's dumb, not too strong (biased snuty ~~), but dumb.
I am kinda with drogo here -- some form of nerfed chronoboost would be very nice to have for strategic depth.
It could be even just 25% faster for twice the duration at twice the energy.
This would still offer a lot more depth to toss. Even if you make unable to cast on nexus if you are worried about probe building speed.
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First off, totally agree that invincible Nydus needs to go, it's just dumb, kind of like drop at hatch tech.
Second, I think that Warp Prisms will be Protoss primary means of pushing and doing multi pronged attacks, but the strength will certainly be dialed back in due time, it kind of needs to be strong so enough players will start testing it and we can dial it back in a good direction.
Theres alot of things that are going to get nerfed/adjusted over the next 24 months from all the races, it's just going to take time like it always does, HOTS had super up and down periods for everyone and eventually it stabilized into an awesome and established metagame.
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On August 24 2015 05:29 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2015 05:02 PtitDrogo wrote:
I agree with you on most points, but real talk protoss is a lot more boring without chronoboost management, nerf it all you want to make us unable to do "gimmicky stuff" but leave it be, it's a LOT more strategic than mules and injects.
Personally I don't like the idea of having your entire aggression relying on a warp prism, it's dumb, not too strong (biased snuty ~~), but dumb. I am kinda with drogo here -- some form of nerfed chronoboost would be very nice to have for strategic depth. It could be even just 25% faster for twice the duration at twice the energy. This would still offer a lot more depth to toss. Even if you make unable to cast on nexus if you are worried about probe building speed.
What if its a permanent buff to one building, that can be switched around.
Maybe at 25, 20 or 15% increased production
That would remove the "hardcore" base management and increase production on many bases.
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At least in Brood War, you knew that a Shuttle could only contain max 2 archons or 2 reavers (eh maybe just 1? i forgot lol T_T), and then it would have to "reload".
Not sure the comparison does you any favours here, consider the similar role of the arbiter in BW if it got into your base.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On August 24 2015 13:28 Dingobloo wrote:Show nested quote + At least in Brood War, you knew that a Shuttle could only contain max 2 archons or 2 reavers (eh maybe just 1? i forgot lol T_T), and then it would have to "reload". Not sure the comparison does you any favours here, consider the similar role of the arbiter in BW if it got into your base.
I'm not sure your comparison is doing you favors bc arbiters can't continue to spawn units after unloading it's payload in your base.
His point is that shuttles could contain x number of units but warp prisms can contain x number of units PLUS whatever they warp in. The difference being, you can say to yourself, "oh I'll pull back a few units to chase off the shuttle and get him out of my mineral line" vs "oh shit there's a warp prism in my base, better pull back the majority of my army before charge lots kill everything and protoss produces a 2nd wave of units."
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I want to come back and tell you how disgusting I find this opinion. You are so annoyingly biased against things that Protoss like about their race. Just look at Korean play in Proleague and Code S shows wayy more macro and 3 base play than what MorroW suggests. Its really gross how much the whole gimmicky cheese whine continues to show up in North American non-Protoss players.
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On August 24 2015 17:16 Isarios wrote:
I want to come back and tell you how disgusting I find this opinion. You are so annoyingly biased against things that Protoss like about their race. Just look at Korean play in Proleague and Code S shows wayy more macro and 3 base play than what MorroW suggests. Its really gross how much the whole gimmicky cheese whine continues to show up in North American non-Protoss players.
MorroW says that he's spoken to many pro level Protosses who play "gimmicky" cheeses not because they want to, but because it gives them more success. I feel like only Has and sOs take pride in their heavy helpings of Protoss cheese.
Maybe Korean Protosses offer more macro play than MorroW suggests, but I think the vast majority of players would be happy if proxy Oracle succeeded a lot less than it does in Code S. Or proxy DT. Or proxy anything at all.
Sometimes cheese is cool. Life 9 pooling on the 7th map of GSL finals Season 1 2015 is really awesome. But it gets tiring after awhile. INnoVation 2rax'd soO twice in IEM gamescom finals just a little while ago. 2015 Season 2 SSL finals, Dream vs. Classic was an utter cheese fest from Classic. Some random Proleague game I tuned into had some no-name Protoss 2-gate Life from the center of Cactus Valley a few weeks ago.
Cheese is great... to an extent. LotV doesn't kill cheese by any means, but it does greatly reduce their number and strength. MorroW is welcoming a Protoss that isn't reliant on regular cheesing to keep its edge as a race. I definitely welcome this too.
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On August 23 2015 20:44 Liquid`Snute wrote:Nice post! As MorroW pointed out, Warp Prism in LOTV has to move all the way from the Protoss base before it becomes a real threat. However, it still acts as an UNLIMITED warp-in tunnel once it's there. This is different from Medivac or Overlord that has to 'reload' units that need to walk across the map first. Not much of an issue for Zerg usually, but for Terran, absolutely. Anyway back to the prism. Still only 200 minerals (?), and it takes on average way, way more resources to deflect it than 200 minerals. I think it is unjustified to nerf the forward Pylon hard into the ground while leaving the Warp Prism untouched. The warp prism still acts as an unlimited warp-in tunnel and unlike a Medivac or Overlord it will never stop until killed. Its real threat value isn't 200 minerals, it can be as much as 1500-2000 minerals and gas, sometimes 3000+. With a warp-in time of less than two seconds, even stronger than before. For T and Z (and P), this type of guessing game feels gimmicky from a player perspective. At least in Brood War, you knew that a Shuttle could only contain max 2 archons or 2 reavers (eh maybe just 1? i forgot lol T_T), and then it would have to "reload". I'm strongly against the new nydus worm as well compared to, say, a nydus rocket launcher that would resemble Zerg Drop Pods from the campaign (with a cooldown), or the new Overlord drop. Infinite tunnels are some of the most theoretically powerful and devastating tools in RTS and they should not be thrown around lightly for cheap money imo. If the warp prism all of a sudden becomes deliberately strong for its cheap cost, increasingly mobile and durable, etc., to compensate for other flaws of the race (forward pylons being weak, Protoss mobility being weak), we might have missed the mark again. I would not be surprised to see late-game Protoss turn into "only camp&defend while testing waters with Prisms to open up an opportunity to move out". But that might be what designers and Protoss players want? Dunno
Well said.
At this point there is a long way to balance ahead, if Blizz keeps the changes (which i hope they do).
Your concerns regarding the warp prism could maybe be solved implementing the need of an upgrade for the warp prism to warp in fast. It would not be that big of a problem in the late-game, or would it?
On the other hand a warp prism will always have to compete with a forward pylon + gateway (250 min and long build time).
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On August 23 2015 17:15 GrandSmurf wrote:
The other races has tons of cheeses and tricks up their sleeves,
Race. not races. Terran has no tricks up their sleeves bar proxy 2 rax.
And cloaked banshees. Terran is definitely less gimicky than 'Toss and more solid (and in fact, is now just straight-up better than Toss, although I doubt that'll be the case come launch). Terran also rewards skill more, IMO.
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SoCal8910 Posts
On August 24 2015 06:39 jpg06051992 wrote:
First off, totally agree that invincible Nydus needs to go, it's just dumb, kind of like drop at hatch tech.
highly disagree with both of these
previously, nydus was literally unusable in anything above platinum league because all you ahd to do was have vision of your entire base and you could respond/kill it before it came up. you had to be playing against a player that was seriously oblivious in order to kill him with a nydus worm
even like this, you can quickly kill the worm as soon as it pops, provided you have vision of your base. the units come out one by one so for the most part it is mostly a non factor. it was previously BS that if you were out of position, a bunch of scvs quickly pulled off the line could come close to, if not completely, kill the nydus worm.
i'd have to see some pretty damning evidence to consider it OP, honestly.
as for hatch tech drops, if you look at the current map pool, protoss and terran players can very frequently get away with greedy builds with near impunity. this used to be the case in every version of the game too, zerg simply had no way of countering greedy builds because they had no way to break down or pass by a wall, cost effectively AND without sacrificing economy. meanwhile, for instance, a terran could open up with a greedy build, build 4-6 hellions, and apply pressure. its about time we got some early game love especially since the game starts with 12 workers now.
hatch tech drops require a gas investment that, right now, a zerg player doesn't want to make versus a terran player opening with a fast CC. if they're not going for speed+banes, and only use 25 gas to create the overlord, then resume mining..slowlings aren't a gigantic issue, they're simply some light harassment.
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MY opinion as a casual player and fan who watches lots of Starcraft.
One of the big aspects of this game that draws me and lots of more people is the special thing they (Blizzard) got going by using three completely different and unique races and being able to identify and enjoy playing with one of them. This is a game, maybe a very mature game, but a game nonetheless, and a purpose of every game is to have fun. And people choose a race to both win and have fun.
I am a big AOE fan and I loved to play that game. Back then, after playing for many years, I was a little unsatisfied because all civilizations had the same "core" and just some features that made them "different". It was cool. And fun! I just wished all races were completely different. That's why eventually me and friends (and lots of people) started playing with random civilizations, because it was essentially the same. And BOOM I met Starcraft, and I was a very happy camper.
Point is, MULEs, injection, and chrono boost is such a race specific for me and its part of what makes them special. Yeah its very hard to balance a game where civilizations are completely different, but taking those things out its making all three civilizations closer to each other, or, the same"er". That's how I see it.
And cheeses, come one, cheeses! I enjoy them. Like a lot. I get excited when in a bo7 on the last game MVP is about to proxy rax Squirtle. Balls of steel. Or Naniwa proxy gate Hyun on final game. Madness. Most memorable games for me. Maybe no skill? But being greedy is like living your life without fearing death, and time to time, you just have to feel that fear again, and change the way you live.
I just love the whole package: macro, cheese, three races. Let's hope for the best.
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EPT
