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I suck at this game. Nevertheless, I enjoy macro a lot. More than this, chronoboosting is one of the things that makes macroing for me more fun rather than less so, because it feels like a tangible boost I get just by paying a little bit of attention. At the level I play at, it feels more like a bonus than a chore.
I also don't see how removing the macro mechanics would ever lead to a situation where mechanics wouldn't be the most important thing at lower levels. SC2 is never going to be a "strategy game" like a few people want it to be. It's a game where mechanics are really important, and that's never going to change.
One of the things that the macro mechanics do, however, is to actually simplify macroing to a degree. Rather than having to build tons of extra hatcheries (a thing I never remotely got the hang of in SC1), I can just click a button on my queen to get more larvae. Even if only do it occasionally, it makes macroing a lot easier for me. Likewise, as a Terran, instead of having to expand a ton and constantly monitor my income, I can press a button to get more minerals. Even if I don't do it nearly as often as I should, every time I press that button, I get a reward that would otherwise take a lot more effort on my part to get. Likewise, chronoboost (which I think is the best of the mechanics) rewards me for paying attention to the important things in my base. Do I want psi storm to finish faster? Press a button. Do I want that zealot to finish faster? Press a button. Do I want more probes? Press a button.
I'm not remotely convinced that removing macro mechanics would be easier on casuals. From where I'm standing, it might actually make the game harder for them.
There might indeed be a benefit to reducing the amount of power that that button press gives you, which would mean that casuals wouldn't be 'punished' as much for dealing with it haphazardly. But macro mechanics fundamentally are simplifications of macro, not complications. It's important not to overlook this.
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Stop trying to make 1v1 ladder more "casual" friendly. Just fucking stop. 1v1 ladder is not, and should never have been, intended for your casual gamer crowd. That's what team games and Arcade is for.
One of StarCraft's BIGGEST problems is this stupid emphasis on 1v1 needing to be for "everyone". It's not. It's for your ultra competitive, hardcore crowd. All of us ladder baddies still want to watch the pros duke it out in tournaments, but don't take away game mechanics for the sake of appealing to us. Focus more on Arcade and team games, the two biggest reasons people still played Brood War for years beyond it's release.
I'm so aggravated by all the changes made to LotV in the last couple months and it really just makes me sad.
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On August 09 2015 02:38 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Stop trying to make 1v1 ladder more "casual" friendly. Just fucking stop. 1v1 ladder is not, and should never have been, intended for your casual gamer crowd. That's what team games and Arcade is for.
One of StarCraft's BIGGEST problems is this stupid emphasis on 1v1 needing to be for "everyone". It's not. It's for your ultra competitive, hardcore crowd. All of us ladder baddies still want to watch the pros duke it out in tournaments, but don't take away game mechanics for the sake of appealing to us. Focus more on Arcade and team games, the two biggest reasons people still played Brood War for years beyond it's release.
I'm so aggravated by all the changes made to LotV in the last couple months and it really just makes me sad.
I don't think that arguement is any valid.
I don't want to play a different game in the Arcade. That's not Starcraft, I can as well open up WC3 for that or plainly play a different game. If they wouldn't want to have people play starcraft they could just make a different game to begin with...
And teamgames are just as competitive. I have no clue why you think they aren't. If you don't want to play them competitively that's your own spirit but that's the exact same thing for 1v1 and every other game on this planet. That's just your own choice to fuck around and has nothing to do with teamgames "being for casuals". If anything they are even more competitive by concept because the best way to play them is with a practice partner that you have to train with for teamplay additionally to the normal strategy/mechanics training. And if you are a "casual" I guess the last thing you want is to make your playtime dependend on someone else's availability.
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On August 09 2015 02:53 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2015 02:38 KrazyTrumpet wrote:
Stop trying to make 1v1 ladder more "casual" friendly. Just fucking stop. 1v1 ladder is not, and should never have been, intended for your casual gamer crowd. That's what team games and Arcade is for.
One of StarCraft's BIGGEST problems is this stupid emphasis on 1v1 needing to be for "everyone". It's not. It's for your ultra competitive, hardcore crowd. All of us ladder baddies still want to watch the pros duke it out in tournaments, but don't take away game mechanics for the sake of appealing to us. Focus more on Arcade and team games, the two biggest reasons people still played Brood War for years beyond it's release.
I'm so aggravated by all the changes made to LotV in the last couple months and it really just makes me sad. I don't think that arguement is any valid. I don't want to play a different game in the Arcade. That's not Starcraft, I can as well open up WC3 for that or plainly play a different game. If they wouldn't want to have people play starcraft they could just make a different game to begin with... And teamgames are just as competitive. I have no clue why you think they aren't. If you don't want to play them competitively that's your own spirit but that's the exact same thing for 1v1 and every other game on this planet. That's just your own choice to fuck around and has nothing to do with teamgames "being for casuals". If anything they are even more competitive by concept because the best way to play them is with a practice partner that you have to train with for teamplay additionally to the normal strategy/mechanics training. And if you are a "casual" I guess the last thing you want is to make your playtime dependend on someone else's availability.
And I don't want to play this watered down ZOMG ACTION AND ABILITIES EVERYWHERRREEEEEEEE shitty economy command & conquer style "starcraft"
If you want to play STARCRAFT, then you suck it up and learn and get better at all the mechanics.
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SC2 being so mechanically easy is why SC2 isn't a good game. It's why it doesn't have the same "magic" as BW.
It's also why C level progammers can occasionally take games off of S+ class progammers which was something unheard of in BW. Since mechanics are so normalized and easy to be perfect at it turns the high levels into build order coin flips sometimes, and not actual displays of raw skill.
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On August 09 2015 03:20 DemigodcelpH wrote:
SC2 being so mechanically easy is why SC2 isn't a good game. It's why it doesn't have the same "magic" as BW.
It's also why C level progammers can occasionally take games off of S+ class progammers which was something unheard of in BW. Since mechanics are so normalized and easy to be perfect at it turns the high levels into build order coin flips sometimes, and not actual displays of raw skill.
+1
Sadly people dont see the magic that was Brood War.
Did SC2 do something that was to say "re-inventive"? Sure.
Is LOTV doing the same thing? Sure.
Sadly, the community has shown constant demand for specific BW features/mechanics but the business model isn't projected to do that.
Maybe in another 5 years when a new "envision" needs to sprout, we will see a HD Remake of Brood War.
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People don't like RTS multiplayer. That is the problem, not difficulty of mechanics.
The issue is that it is not a team game. If they lose, it is all their own fault. No room to rationalize it away.
RTS is dead. You can make it easy or hard or anything in between; it won't matter. These people don't even know if they are experiencing too much macro or too little micro or strategy or positioning. All they know is that they don't like it.
Also, SC2 is mechanically easy. So if this would be the solution to RTS, why hasn't SC2 solved it? RTS has only declined among casuals.
Tons of casuals worldwide played SC and many more in Korea up until the release of SC2.
Go read some reviews of Starcraft when it was released, and real-time was a novelty(well it wasn't anymore at that point, but it used to be), and see what magazines/websites wrote about the multiplayer. You'd be surprised.
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Removing those macro mechanics won't really make things easier. People don't like SC2 because it simply isn't that fun at lower leagues, you have to be in a practice attitude and not in a "game" attitude and believe me when I say that removing chronoboost or mules or larva injects will actually do nothing but make that practice a bit more boring with less things to feel good about improving.
The main problem is the very high dps and very mobile armies that barely give a new player any time to react. Bio is extremely mobile with very high speed. The new Terran mech is also very mobile with very high speed units. Zergs have muta, lings and baneling that are all quite mobile while roaches aren't anywhere near "slow". Protoss have their offensive warp gates (they will be gone now) and some high damage burst units (disruptor, early oracle). So what happens to new players who mostly play reactively and have awareness issues? They just have no fun at all.
All this very high speed and very imba damage is not fitting for an RTS. This shouldn't be an "action" paced game. Sadly however, Blizzard is just doing the opposite of slowing it down or making it less about "who masses units better". The lurker was a unit in the right direction however when you factor in the cyclone and the liberator you really start wondering what the heck is their "end game" when it comes to design.
In all honesty, I really think we have a shot by making this game better using mods. I hope the community can come up with a unified mod that substitute for Blizzard crappy design and I have big hopes for this because the community does seem to know what it wants.
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On August 09 2015 03:12 mishimaBeef wrote:
shitty economy?
Yeah, I despise this half-patch model.
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You don't need hardcore macro to be decent... You can enjoy the game on bronze !
By the way the archon mod is a good thing. But it's pretty stupid to create archon mod for casual, and then remove macro...
Personnally, when i watch progamer vod, what's impress me the most is their macro, and their ability to keep macroing while harassing.
Lowering macro mecanism, will just make me the game less enjoyable to watch and to play.
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On August 09 2015 06:26 Tyrhanius wrote:
You don't need hardcore macro to be decent... You can enjoy the game on bronze !
By the way the archon mod is a good thing. But it's pretty stupid to create archon mod for casual, and then remove macro...
Personnally, when i watch progamer vod, what's impress me the most is their macro, and their ability to keep macroing while harassing.
Lowering macro mecanism, will just make me the game less enjoyable to watch and to play.
All the little things like macro mechanics may not seem like much individually, but when you add them all up it makes a big difference. It's mastering all the little things that separates the good from the great players.
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I'm just quite unhappy to see that the game will come out in 2015. I don't think the proposed macro changes are good even though i agree when they say that since the game will be more taxating due to the need of constantly expanding, they might have to make something a bit easier. Now, making inject automatic is too much, just increasing the cooldown (and improve effectiveness?) of the abilities would be enough if they really wanted to make macro easier and favour more micro action. Also I'm quite positive most people who want inject removed are pretty terrible at the game.
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On August 09 2015 09:29 Karpfen wrote:
Also I'm quite positive most people who want inject removed are pretty terrible at the game.
Master Z since WOL, Master T 1 season, Diamond in lotv with random without watching others play it. Do I exceed 'terrible'?
I support the removal. It's silly busywork.
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One of the resources in the game is attention. This will be a huge buff for Z imo as they will have more time to focus on other things. But maybe zerg will be nerfed a bit due to not having a lot of lava now. Which is very sad. You might not see zerg take a fight then instantly remax as much as they did in WoL and Hots, and that was one of they coolest parts of zerg.
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On August 08 2015 20:27 Quineotio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2015 19:46 Cazimirbzh wrote:Macro =/= strategy. Ever heard of KT_Flash ? what?? I was saying that you cannot use those two words - "macro" and "strategy" interchangeably. I agree that focusing on macro tasks can be a strategy, and that there are strategies that exist that are so called "macro strategies", but macro does not represent the entirety of "strategy", and the macro mechanics do not represent the entirety of macro. Removing the macro mechanics does not mean trading strategy for unit control. One of the arguments against the macro mechanics is that there isn't much strategy involved - they are just a mechanical barrier to playing the game.
I know i knwon  However i think you underestimate the important of strategy that current macro mechnics can provide. Aso Even if i supported removal at the beginning as they're making balance impossible to do it now will be a another nail in the sc2 coffin :S
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LOTV=Warcraft 4
Its good to try it out and see how it goes. Thats the point of beta
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On August 09 2015 10:18 Za7oX wrote:
One of the resources in the game is attention. This will be a huge buff for Z imo as they will have more time to focus on other things. But maybe zerg will be nerfed a bit due to not having a lot of lava now. Which is very sad. You might not see zerg take a fight then instantly remax as much as they did in WoL and Hots, and that was one of they coolest parts of zerg.
You will for sure be able to, the difference is you can't rely on 4 hatcheries to do it. Now zerg will need to invest more in production a few extra macro hatcheries, which they did in BW as well late game.
This changes a lot and I think it's a change for the better, of course there will need to be rebalancing but I can already envision the happiness knowing that I kill all of a Terran's scv's and he can't just mule up late game  .
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Sc2 isn't going to be casual just because injects, mules, and chrono are gone. Stop acting like drama queens the game is already very fast paced and these mechanics don't add value to the game strategically or skill wise
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There is already too easy mechanics in this game, koreans are very close in skill mechanically.
Please don't remove the last bit of skill from the game..
Broodwar was so amazing because pro's themselves couldn't even play perfect so there was more room to outplay your opponent.
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EPT
