|
On August 08 2015 20:34 Aocowns wrote:
random thought i had that i'll put here
Assuming this complete removal of manual zerg macro mechanics goes through, the race will be horribly imbalanced and require nerfing of massable and fast units
Because with that removal, there is literally not a single reason for zerg to ever look at their base for more than a second or two every other minute to start an upgrade or a building. Combine this with the fact that splitting selected units away from a control group (which will have a fundamental and significant impact on zerg and not the other races because of adding eggs), the mechanical requirement of zerg will be ridiculously low, and in theory, a player could just spazz around the map making chaos without ever sacrificing macro or fucking up control groups(which often happens in the current state of the game if a player is being too spastic)
It seems to me as if this change would have much more magnitude than most people think, and lead to some huge fundamental changes in balance and expose a big caveat in design, right?
fuck i hit quote instead of edit again, sigh
|
On August 08 2015 20:34 Aocowns wrote:
random thought i had that i'll put here
Assuming this complete removal of manual zerg macro mechanics goes through, the race will be horribly imbalanced and require nerfing of massable and fast units
Because with that removal, there is literally not a single reason for zerg to ever look at their base for more than a second or two every other minute to start an upgrade or a building. Combine this with the fact that splitting selected units away from a control group (which will have a fundamental and significant impact on zerg and not the other races because of adding eggs), the mechanical requirement of zerg will be ridiculously low, and in theory, a player could just spazz around the map making chaos without ever sacrificing macro or fucking up control groups(which often happens in the current state of the game if a player is being too spastic)
It seems to me as if this change would have much more magnitude than most people think, and lead to some huge fundamental changes in balance and expose a big caveat in design, right?
We're still months from release, so there's still plenty of time to tweak things.
|
I personally believe that they should remove some of the dumbed down mechanics, like auto worker mining from rally points and put a cap on unit selection. Broodwar was fun to me because I had to constantly maintaining everything
|
On August 08 2015 20:44 Quineotio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2015 20:34 Aocowns wrote:
random thought i had that i'll put here
Assuming this complete removal of manual zerg macro mechanics goes through, the race will be horribly imbalanced and require nerfing of massable and fast units
Because with that removal, there is literally not a single reason for zerg to ever look at their base for more than a second or two every other minute to start an upgrade or a building. Combine this with the fact that splitting selected units away from a control group (which will have a fundamental and significant impact on zerg and not the other races because of adding eggs), the mechanical requirement of zerg will be ridiculously low, and in theory, a player could just spazz around the map making chaos without ever sacrificing macro or fucking up control groups(which often happens in the current state of the game if a player is being too spastic)
It seems to me as if this change would have much more magnitude than most people think, and lead to some huge fundamental changes in balance and expose a big caveat in design, right? We're still months from release, so there's still plenty of time to tweak things.
yeah but it would require tweaking of very basic things, and there is absolutely no way whatsoever such fundamental changes and alterations would be percieved as fair or balanced with just a year of estimated beta (at the absolute most) left and such a low amount of high level players play-testing actively and seriously
|
On August 08 2015 20:48 DanceSC wrote:
I personally believe that they should remove some of the dumbed down mechanics, like auto worker mining from rally points and put a cap on unit selection. Broodwar was fun to me because I had to constantly maintaining everything
Yeah, at the very least they have to add a macro mechanic to zerg if they intend to completely automate the only big one they have
|
On August 08 2015 20:50 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2015 20:44 Quineotio wrote:On August 08 2015 20:34 Aocowns wrote:
random thought i had that i'll put here
Assuming this complete removal of manual zerg macro mechanics goes through, the race will be horribly imbalanced and require nerfing of massable and fast units
Because with that removal, there is literally not a single reason for zerg to ever look at their base for more than a second or two every other minute to start an upgrade or a building. Combine this with the fact that splitting selected units away from a control group (which will have a fundamental and significant impact on zerg and not the other races because of adding eggs), the mechanical requirement of zerg will be ridiculously low, and in theory, a player could just spazz around the map making chaos without ever sacrificing macro or fucking up control groups(which often happens in the current state of the game if a player is being too spastic)
It seems to me as if this change would have much more magnitude than most people think, and lead to some huge fundamental changes in balance and expose a big caveat in design, right? We're still months from release, so there's still plenty of time to tweak things. yeah but it would require tweaking of very basic things, and there is absolutely no way whatsoever such fundamental changes and alterations would be percieved as fair or balanced with just a year of estimated beta (at the absolute most) left and such a low amount of high level players play-testing actively and seriously
I don't think you can predict what will happen. If you haven't read G3n's post ("New Macro = Good!?") about his experiences without the macro mechanics I recommend it: www.teamliquid.net
|
I enjoyed levelling Zerg from bronze up to platinum the most, specifically because I got to work only on my macro (nowadays in diamond it's oh I misclicked my banelings once in ZvZ, gg)
Micro is boring to me: my favourite bit of micro is when i jump back to my base to do my injects and creep spread, thinking "man, my opponent is probably just focussing on the fight, so even if he wins this one, I'm going to win the next one".
|
On August 08 2015 20:52 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2015 20:48 DanceSC wrote:
I personally believe that they should remove some of the dumbed down mechanics, like auto worker mining from rally points and put a cap on unit selection. Broodwar was fun to me because I had to constantly maintaining everything Yeah, at the very least they have to add a macro mechanic to zerg if they intend to completely automate the only big one they have
Do you feel that the only thing holding you back from controlling the game perfectly is the macro mechanics?
|
On August 08 2015 20:58 Quineotio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2015 20:52 Aocowns wrote:On August 08 2015 20:48 DanceSC wrote:
I personally believe that they should remove some of the dumbed down mechanics, like auto worker mining from rally points and put a cap on unit selection. Broodwar was fun to me because I had to constantly maintaining everything Yeah, at the very least they have to add a macro mechanic to zerg if they intend to completely automate the only big one they have Do you feel that the only thing holding you back from controlling the game perfectly is the macro mechanics?
absolutely not, im just in the boat where i want my mechanical strength to account for as much as my composition choices and strategical choices. For that to be possible there needs to be macro mechanics that can be performed to much greater effect in a great player
I mean im pretty much completely new to the macro mechanics debate so there are plenty of points i havent read up on and shit
|
On August 08 2015 20:34 Aocowns wrote:
random thought i had that i'll put here
Assuming this complete removal of manual zerg macro mechanics goes through, the race will be horribly imbalanced and require nerfing of massable and fast units
Because with that removal, there is literally not a single reason for zerg to ever look at their base for more than a second or two every other minute to start an upgrade or a building. Combine this with the fact that splitting selected units away from a control group (which will have a fundamental and significant impact on zerg and not the other races because of adding eggs), the mechanical requirement of zerg will be ridiculously low, and in theory, a player could just spazz around the map making chaos without ever sacrificing macro or fucking up control groups(which often happens in the current state of the game if a player is being too spastic)
It seems to me as if this change would have much more magnitude than most people think, and lead to some huge fundamental changes in balance and expose a big caveat in design, right?
Balance is out of the window anyways currently. There are many problem areas that most likely will need a tweak or two, just because of the new units and the 12worker start and other protoss changes (and the ones that are to come). It's the perfect time to throw this in when changes need to be made eventually anyways.
To your specific concerns:
Zerg loses 30% of their unit production in the early game (and also later on but then it's probably easier to overcome). Terran just lols and drops a supply depot instead of a mule, which is less value but a far, far, far smaller nerf to their tempo. And they are already profiting from the 12worker start in that department.
Chrono is probably a much bigger problem because it makes certain strategies - in particular +1zealots vs zerg or double upgrade vs terran - a lot weaker or plainly unplayable. Though there may already be replacements (adepts for the anti-zergling).
|
On August 08 2015 20:34 Aocowns wrote:
random thought i had that i'll put here
Assuming this complete removal of manual zerg macro mechanics goes through, the race will be horribly imbalanced and require nerfing of massable and fast units
Because with that removal, there is literally not a single reason for zerg to ever look at their base for more than a second or two every other minute to start an upgrade or a building. Combine this with the fact that splitting selected units away from a control group (which will have a fundamental and significant impact on zerg and not the other races because of adding eggs), the mechanical requirement of zerg will be ridiculously low, and in theory, a player could just spazz around the map making chaos without ever sacrificing macro or fucking up control groups(which often happens in the current state of the game if a player is being too spastic)
It seems to me as if this change would have much more magnitude than most people think, and lead to some huge fundamental changes in balance and expose a big caveat in design, right?
Isn't this exactly the direction in which we want the game to move? Ideally, the baseline mechanical requirement for each of the races is roughly the same, regardless of macrobooster design implemented. This means that the game, disregarding player versus player interactions, is roughly the same difficulty for the two players. Now, this does not mean that the game becomes holistically "easier", if you take away macroboosters, but you're merely shifting the attention to the player versus player interactions. The difficulty of the game becomes relatively more dependent on how well you can exploit your opponent, or how good the opponent is good at exploiting your weaknesses, and less about how well you did your homework in terms of injecting well or mule'ing well.
There's a lot of nuance and benefit to be had from preparation in terms of worker-supply-command structures, building positioning and tech-army-economy aspects of the game. I think most starcraft 2 players forget how much complexity that is in the base Starcraft game that they think that once macroboosters are taken away, the game is completely dumbed down. It's not.
|
United Kingdom10443 Posts
I think it's interesting that Blizzard have said that the zerg macro mechanic isn't "fun"
I personally love the flow of quickly moving through my bases and injecting all of them, seeing my queen energy low and thinking "god that was pro as fuck, i'm just like Life". Performing something difficult on the same level as the pro players is fun and rewarding for me.
|
On August 08 2015 21:10 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2015 20:34 Aocowns wrote:
random thought i had that i'll put here
Assuming this complete removal of manual zerg macro mechanics goes through, the race will be horribly imbalanced and require nerfing of massable and fast units
Because with that removal, there is literally not a single reason for zerg to ever look at their base for more than a second or two every other minute to start an upgrade or a building. Combine this with the fact that splitting selected units away from a control group (which will have a fundamental and significant impact on zerg and not the other races because of adding eggs), the mechanical requirement of zerg will be ridiculously low, and in theory, a player could just spazz around the map making chaos without ever sacrificing macro or fucking up control groups(which often happens in the current state of the game if a player is being too spastic)
It seems to me as if this change would have much more magnitude than most people think, and lead to some huge fundamental changes in balance and expose a big caveat in design, right? Isn't this exactly the direction in which we want the game to move? Ideally, the baseline mechanical requirement for each of the races is roughly the same, regardless of macrobooster design implemented. This means that the game, disregarding player versus player interactions, is roughly the same difficulty for the two players. Now, this does not mean that the game becomes holistically "easier", if you take away macroboosters, but you're merely shifting the attention to the player versus player interactions. The difficulty of the game becomes relatively more dependent on how well you can exploit your opponent, or how good the opponent is good at exploiting your weaknesses, and less about how well you did your homework in terms of injecting well or mule'ing well. There's a lot of nuance and benefit to be had from preparation in terms of worker-supply-command structures, building positioning and tech-army-economy aspects of the game. I think most starcraft 2 players forget how much complexity that is in the base Starcraft game that they think that once macroboosters are taken away, the game is completely dumbed down. It's not.
I do agree with you, but I think his point is that protoss and terran have to queue up a lot more shit in their bases than zerg and it's balanced out by zerg having to inject so frequently.
And I'm not sure he is right, I'm forgetting to put down my roach warren all the time hehe. And Protoss queing up stuff is already a thousand times easier than terran with queuing back workers and shit and then putting down addons for every building imo. Also the amount of upgrades and buildings zerg needs is a bit underrated I think. The spending in infrastructure are quite similar for zerg unless the game goes really late and Terrans/Protoss start techswitching.
|
On August 08 2015 21:10 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2015 20:34 Aocowns wrote:
random thought i had that i'll put here
Assuming this complete removal of manual zerg macro mechanics goes through, the race will be horribly imbalanced and require nerfing of massable and fast units
Because with that removal, there is literally not a single reason for zerg to ever look at their base for more than a second or two every other minute to start an upgrade or a building. Combine this with the fact that splitting selected units away from a control group (which will have a fundamental and significant impact on zerg and not the other races because of adding eggs), the mechanical requirement of zerg will be ridiculously low, and in theory, a player could just spazz around the map making chaos without ever sacrificing macro or fucking up control groups(which often happens in the current state of the game if a player is being too spastic)
It seems to me as if this change would have much more magnitude than most people think, and lead to some huge fundamental changes in balance and expose a big caveat in design, right? Isn't this exactly the direction in which we want the game to move? Ideally, the baseline mechanical requirement for each of the races is roughly the same, regardless of macrobooster design implemented. This means that the game, disregarding player versus player interactions, is roughly the same difficulty for the two players. Now, this does not mean that the game becomes holistically "easier", if you take away macroboosters, but you're merely shifting the attention to the player versus player interactions. The difficulty of the game becomes relatively more dependent on how well you can exploit your opponent, or how good the opponent is good at exploiting your weaknesses, and less about how well you did your homework in terms of injecting well or mule'ing well. There's a lot of nuance and benefit to be had from preparation in terms of worker-supply-command structures, building positioning and tech-army-economy aspects of the game. I think most starcraft 2 players forget how much complexity that is in the base Starcraft game that they think that once macroboosters are taken away, the game is completely dumbed down. It's not.
for the specific part you bolded, that would pretty much only apply to zergs though, right? The mechanical requirement for all races wouldnt be the same, it would be much easier for zerg
|
On August 08 2015 21:15 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2015 21:10 TokO wrote:On August 08 2015 20:34 Aocowns wrote:
random thought i had that i'll put here
Assuming this complete removal of manual zerg macro mechanics goes through, the race will be horribly imbalanced and require nerfing of massable and fast units
Because with that removal, there is literally not a single reason for zerg to ever look at their base for more than a second or two every other minute to start an upgrade or a building. Combine this with the fact that splitting selected units away from a control group (which will have a fundamental and significant impact on zerg and not the other races because of adding eggs), the mechanical requirement of zerg will be ridiculously low, and in theory, a player could just spazz around the map making chaos without ever sacrificing macro or fucking up control groups(which often happens in the current state of the game if a player is being too spastic)
It seems to me as if this change would have much more magnitude than most people think, and lead to some huge fundamental changes in balance and expose a big caveat in design, right? Isn't this exactly the direction in which we want the game to move? Ideally, the baseline mechanical requirement for each of the races is roughly the same, regardless of macrobooster design implemented. This means that the game, disregarding player versus player interactions, is roughly the same difficulty for the two players. Now, this does not mean that the game becomes holistically "easier", if you take away macroboosters, but you're merely shifting the attention to the player versus player interactions. The difficulty of the game becomes relatively more dependent on how well you can exploit your opponent, or how good the opponent is good at exploiting your weaknesses, and less about how well you did your homework in terms of injecting well or mule'ing well. There's a lot of nuance and benefit to be had from preparation in terms of worker-supply-command structures, building positioning and tech-army-economy aspects of the game. I think most starcraft 2 players forget how much complexity that is in the base Starcraft game that they think that once macroboosters are taken away, the game is completely dumbed down. It's not. I do agree with you, but I think his point is that protoss and terran have to queue up a lot more shit in their bases than zerg and it's balanced out by zerg having to inject so frequently. And I'm not sure he is right, I'm forgetting to put down my roach warren all the time hehe. And Protoss queing up stuff is already a thousand times easier than terran with queuing back workers and shit and then putting down addons for every building imo. Also the amount of upgrades and buildings zerg needs is a bit underrated I think. The spending in infrastructure are quite similar for zerg unless the game goes really late and Terrans/Protoss start techswitching.
Yeah something like this I think. In a high pace game, it would be much much harder for protoss and terran, especially terran, to stay on top of macro and army control compared to the zerg, who can pretty much focus solely on army control. + army control for zerg will be made so much easier with the alt-control group thing
|
Yeah, but it wouldn't be the case if Zerg (who didn't have inject) wasn't stacking up larva on their hatcheries, they would have to keep building to spend their resources.
To be honest, I don't mind the macroboosters objectively on the argument of difficulty. The really bad thing is how it influences unit design. For example, zerg units being weaker to avoid remax being op, core gateway units being weaker to avoid chronoboosted warpgate pushes being op. And then the wonky design alleviating those weaknesses (forcefields and MSC for example). I wouldn't mind the game progressing a lot slower if it means I can have robust core units.
|
On August 08 2015 21:25 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2015 21:15 Big J wrote:On August 08 2015 21:10 TokO wrote:On August 08 2015 20:34 Aocowns wrote:
random thought i had that i'll put here
Assuming this complete removal of manual zerg macro mechanics goes through, the race will be horribly imbalanced and require nerfing of massable and fast units
Because with that removal, there is literally not a single reason for zerg to ever look at their base for more than a second or two every other minute to start an upgrade or a building. Combine this with the fact that splitting selected units away from a control group (which will have a fundamental and significant impact on zerg and not the other races because of adding eggs), the mechanical requirement of zerg will be ridiculously low, and in theory, a player could just spazz around the map making chaos without ever sacrificing macro or fucking up control groups(which often happens in the current state of the game if a player is being too spastic)
It seems to me as if this change would have much more magnitude than most people think, and lead to some huge fundamental changes in balance and expose a big caveat in design, right? Isn't this exactly the direction in which we want the game to move? Ideally, the baseline mechanical requirement for each of the races is roughly the same, regardless of macrobooster design implemented. This means that the game, disregarding player versus player interactions, is roughly the same difficulty for the two players. Now, this does not mean that the game becomes holistically "easier", if you take away macroboosters, but you're merely shifting the attention to the player versus player interactions. The difficulty of the game becomes relatively more dependent on how well you can exploit your opponent, or how good the opponent is good at exploiting your weaknesses, and less about how well you did your homework in terms of injecting well or mule'ing well. There's a lot of nuance and benefit to be had from preparation in terms of worker-supply-command structures, building positioning and tech-army-economy aspects of the game. I think most starcraft 2 players forget how much complexity that is in the base Starcraft game that they think that once macroboosters are taken away, the game is completely dumbed down. It's not. I do agree with you, but I think his point is that protoss and terran have to queue up a lot more shit in their bases than zerg and it's balanced out by zerg having to inject so frequently. And I'm not sure he is right, I'm forgetting to put down my roach warren all the time hehe. And Protoss queing up stuff is already a thousand times easier than terran with queuing back workers and shit and then putting down addons for every building imo. Also the amount of upgrades and buildings zerg needs is a bit underrated I think. The spending in infrastructure are quite similar for zerg unless the game goes really late and Terrans/Protoss start techswitching. Yeah something like this I think. In a high pace game, it would be much much harder for protoss and terran, especially terran, to stay on top of macro and army control compared to the zerg, who can pretty much focus solely on army control. + army control for zerg will be made so much easier with the alt-control group thing
I mean, you are basically voicing the same concern as the "soO mechanics"-article of stuchiu. It's something that I'm not sure of how big of an effect it has, especially on the highest levels. I think this would be very much a problem on the bottom of the ladder if zergs just have a lot more production, but at the top? Meh, we see quite good injects when it matters anyways. That's a bit of nounces I think, especially since injects have already been semiautomated to hitting some keyboard & mouse-combos with backspace/location hotkey-tricks that don't force you to really be exact or anything. Just to remember clicking those keys every X-seconds. So it is not like zerg really "looks back to the base" by injecting. They just go on an "idle"-mechanics check every 40seconds.
|
On August 08 2015 21:05 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2015 20:58 Quineotio wrote:On August 08 2015 20:52 Aocowns wrote:On August 08 2015 20:48 DanceSC wrote:
I personally believe that they should remove some of the dumbed down mechanics, like auto worker mining from rally points and put a cap on unit selection. Broodwar was fun to me because I had to constantly maintaining everything Yeah, at the very least they have to add a macro mechanic to zerg if they intend to completely automate the only big one they have Do you feel that the only thing holding you back from controlling the game perfectly is the macro mechanics? absolutely not, im just in the boat where i want my mechanical strength to account for as much as my composition choices and strategical choices. For that to be possible there needs to be macro mechanics that can be performed to much greater effect in a great player
So you feel that without the macro mechanics, macro will be too easy, and better players will not be able to differentiate themselves?
|
On August 08 2015 21:30 Quineotio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2015 21:05 Aocowns wrote:On August 08 2015 20:58 Quineotio wrote:On August 08 2015 20:52 Aocowns wrote:On August 08 2015 20:48 DanceSC wrote:
I personally believe that they should remove some of the dumbed down mechanics, like auto worker mining from rally points and put a cap on unit selection. Broodwar was fun to me because I had to constantly maintaining everything Yeah, at the very least they have to add a macro mechanic to zerg if they intend to completely automate the only big one they have Do you feel that the only thing holding you back from controlling the game perfectly is the macro mechanics? absolutely not, im just in the boat where i want my mechanical strength to account for as much as my composition choices and strategical choices. For that to be possible there needs to be macro mechanics that can be performed to much greater effect in a great player So you feel that without the macro mechanics, macro will be too easy, and better players will not be able to differentiate themselves?
I'm speaking strictly of zergs here. I dont think zergs will ever be classified as real macro monsters
|
On August 08 2015 21:30 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2015 21:25 Aocowns wrote:On August 08 2015 21:15 Big J wrote:On August 08 2015 21:10 TokO wrote:On August 08 2015 20:34 Aocowns wrote:
random thought i had that i'll put here
Assuming this complete removal of manual zerg macro mechanics goes through, the race will be horribly imbalanced and require nerfing of massable and fast units
Because with that removal, there is literally not a single reason for zerg to ever look at their base for more than a second or two every other minute to start an upgrade or a building. Combine this with the fact that splitting selected units away from a control group (which will have a fundamental and significant impact on zerg and not the other races because of adding eggs), the mechanical requirement of zerg will be ridiculously low, and in theory, a player could just spazz around the map making chaos without ever sacrificing macro or fucking up control groups(which often happens in the current state of the game if a player is being too spastic)
It seems to me as if this change would have much more magnitude than most people think, and lead to some huge fundamental changes in balance and expose a big caveat in design, right? Isn't this exactly the direction in which we want the game to move? Ideally, the baseline mechanical requirement for each of the races is roughly the same, regardless of macrobooster design implemented. This means that the game, disregarding player versus player interactions, is roughly the same difficulty for the two players. Now, this does not mean that the game becomes holistically "easier", if you take away macroboosters, but you're merely shifting the attention to the player versus player interactions. The difficulty of the game becomes relatively more dependent on how well you can exploit your opponent, or how good the opponent is good at exploiting your weaknesses, and less about how well you did your homework in terms of injecting well or mule'ing well. There's a lot of nuance and benefit to be had from preparation in terms of worker-supply-command structures, building positioning and tech-army-economy aspects of the game. I think most starcraft 2 players forget how much complexity that is in the base Starcraft game that they think that once macroboosters are taken away, the game is completely dumbed down. It's not. I do agree with you, but I think his point is that protoss and terran have to queue up a lot more shit in their bases than zerg and it's balanced out by zerg having to inject so frequently. And I'm not sure he is right, I'm forgetting to put down my roach warren all the time hehe. And Protoss queing up stuff is already a thousand times easier than terran with queuing back workers and shit and then putting down addons for every building imo. Also the amount of upgrades and buildings zerg needs is a bit underrated I think. The spending in infrastructure are quite similar for zerg unless the game goes really late and Terrans/Protoss start techswitching. Yeah something like this I think. In a high pace game, it would be much much harder for protoss and terran, especially terran, to stay on top of macro and army control compared to the zerg, who can pretty much focus solely on army control. + army control for zerg will be made so much easier with the alt-control group thing I mean, you are basically voicing the same concern as the "soO mechanics"-article of stuchiu. It's something that I'm not sure of how big of an effect it has, especially on the highest levels. I think this would be very much a problem on the bottom of the ladder if zergs just have a lot more production, but at the top? Meh, we see quite good injects when it matters anyways. That's a bit of nounces I think, especially since injects have already been semiautomated to hitting some keyboard & mouse-combos with backspace/location hotkey-tricks that don't force you to really be exact or anything. Just to remember clicking those keys every X-seconds. So it is not like zerg really "looks back to the base" by injecting. They just go on an "idle"-mechanics check every 40seconds.
Inject definitely isnt the greatest idea to ever hit SC, but essentially my initial reaction was that there needs to be *something* zergs have to do as well. Injecting feels zergy and is kinda fun in a way. After reading up on arguments for both sides im honestly content with just sitting back and letting more educated and dedicated people take the reins, lol
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
