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On August 05 2015 17:45 sh1RoKen wrote:
No casual players -> no viewers -> no sponsors -> no money -> no tournaments -> no progamers -> no starcraft.
More casual players -> more viewers -> more sponsors -> more money -> more tournaments -> more progamers -> more starcraft.
That is the MOBA recipe for being a successful competitive game and they (MOBAs) are beating the shit out of starcraft right now. More and more people can afford living being a MOBA progamer all over the world (not in just one country). And they are developing 10 times faster than starcraft in order to become a worldwide sport.
Meanwhile "thi bast geme evar" or "altimate brein campetition" is dying in convulsions. Top-level starcraft events have less viewers than above average MOBA player's streams with no comments.
And for those who "Will be playing hardcore starcraft no matter what because they are to smart for MOBA". Stop lying to yourself and look at warcraft 3 competitive scene. What? You can't? Why? Because there is no such thing? Well, that is exactly how "hardcore starcraft only for geniuses" will look like in 2 years.
Can't agree more. Sometimes I do feel the elitism is what poisoning this game. it seems that too many people just don't care about low-level(below diamond as OP stated) players despite they made up over half of active players on ladder.
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To OP: Can't +1 more, exactly my thoughts.
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On August 05 2015 17:45 sh1RoKen wrote:
No casual players -> no viewers -> no sponsors -> no money -> no tournaments -> no progamers -> no starcraft.
More casual players -> more viewers -> more sponsors -> more money -> more tournaments -> more progamers -> more starcraft.
That is the MOBA recipe for being a successful competitive game and they (MOBAs) are beating the shit out of starcraft right now. More and more people can afford living being a MOBA progamer all over the world (not in just one country). And they are developing 10 times faster than starcraft in order to become a worldwide sport.
Meanwhile "thi bast geme evar" or "altimate brein campetition" is dying in convulsions. Top-level starcraft events have less viewers than above average MOBA player's streams with no comments.
And for those who "Will be playing hardcore starcraft no matter what because they are to smart for MOBA". Stop lying to yourself and look at warcraft 3 competitive scene. What? You can't? Why? Because there is no such thing? Well, that is exactly how "hardcore starcraft only for geniuses" will look like in 2 years.
The thing is, I want to play a game that I enjoy not one that's popular.
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On August 05 2015 18:13 Yiome wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 17:45 sh1RoKen wrote:
No casual players -> no viewers -> no sponsors -> no money -> no tournaments -> no progamers -> no starcraft.
More casual players -> more viewers -> more sponsors -> more money -> more tournaments -> more progamers -> more starcraft.
That is the MOBA recipe for being a successful competitive game and they (MOBAs) are beating the shit out of starcraft right now. More and more people can afford living being a MOBA progamer all over the world (not in just one country). And they are developing 10 times faster than starcraft in order to become a worldwide sport.
Meanwhile "thi bast geme evar" or "altimate brein campetition" is dying in convulsions. Top-level starcraft events have less viewers than above average MOBA player's streams with no comments.
And for those who "Will be playing hardcore starcraft no matter what because they are to smart for MOBA". Stop lying to yourself and look at warcraft 3 competitive scene. What? You can't? Why? Because there is no such thing? Well, that is exactly how "hardcore starcraft only for geniuses" will look like in 2 years. Can't agree more. Sometimes I do feel the elitism is what poisoning this game. it seems that too many people just don't care about low-level(below diamond as OP stated) players despite they made up over half of active players on ladder.
A game has to be balanced around the top, making fundamental changes that aid lower levels players to artificially attain a higher skill level hinders the higher league players ability to differentiate themselves. This is the problem with removing barriers of skill level is that you're just weakening the visibility of skill level, something which goes against their goals for Legacy.
Mule is the exception, there's no efficiency drop and it stacks there's no form of punishment for not dropping it (besides not getting the 270 minerals earlier) I wouldn't be adverse to changing the mule to allow better players to demonstrate better mechanics.
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On August 05 2015 18:55 Linear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 18:13 Yiome wrote:On August 05 2015 17:45 sh1RoKen wrote:
No casual players -> no viewers -> no sponsors -> no money -> no tournaments -> no progamers -> no starcraft.
More casual players -> more viewers -> more sponsors -> more money -> more tournaments -> more progamers -> more starcraft.
That is the MOBA recipe for being a successful competitive game and they (MOBAs) are beating the shit out of starcraft right now. More and more people can afford living being a MOBA progamer all over the world (not in just one country). And they are developing 10 times faster than starcraft in order to become a worldwide sport.
Meanwhile "thi bast geme evar" or "altimate brein campetition" is dying in convulsions. Top-level starcraft events have less viewers than above average MOBA player's streams with no comments.
And for those who "Will be playing hardcore starcraft no matter what because they are to smart for MOBA". Stop lying to yourself and look at warcraft 3 competitive scene. What? You can't? Why? Because there is no such thing? Well, that is exactly how "hardcore starcraft only for geniuses" will look like in 2 years. Can't agree more. Sometimes I do feel the elitism is what poisoning this game. it seems that too many people just don't care about low-level(below diamond as OP stated) players despite they made up over half of active players on ladder. A game has to be balanced around the top, making fundamental changes that aid lower levels players to artificially attain a higher skill level hinders the higher league players ability to differentiate themselves. This is the problem with removing barriers of skill level is that you're just weakening the visibility of skill level, something which goes against their goals for Legacy. Mule is the exception, there's no efficiency drop and it stacks there's no form of punishment for not dropping it (besides not getting the 270 minerals earlier) I wouldn't be adverse to changing the mule to allow better players to demonstrate better mechanics.
I do understand your point and I agree that that's the way balance should be done. But this does not means that the game cannot become "easy to play, hard to master" at the same time.
My point is that first of all Starcraft 2 must be a good game that people enjoy to play, then to become a e-sport, not the other way around. It just feels weird that so many posts from Blizzard and communities figures (TL writers included) are about the top notch pro players' games and viewer experience instead of how the game itself feels like to majority, normal players, who may not as vocal in communities as hardcore players.
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Russian Federation93 Posts
On August 05 2015 18:55 Linear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 18:13 Yiome wrote:On August 05 2015 17:45 sh1RoKen wrote:
No casual players -> no viewers -> no sponsors -> no money -> no tournaments -> no progamers -> no starcraft.
More casual players -> more viewers -> more sponsors -> more money -> more tournaments -> more progamers -> more starcraft.
That is the MOBA recipe for being a successful competitive game and they (MOBAs) are beating the shit out of starcraft right now. More and more people can afford living being a MOBA progamer all over the world (not in just one country). And they are developing 10 times faster than starcraft in order to become a worldwide sport.
Meanwhile "thi bast geme evar" or "altimate brein campetition" is dying in convulsions. Top-level starcraft events have less viewers than above average MOBA player's streams with no comments.
And for those who "Will be playing hardcore starcraft no matter what because they are to smart for MOBA". Stop lying to yourself and look at warcraft 3 competitive scene. What? You can't? Why? Because there is no such thing? Well, that is exactly how "hardcore starcraft only for geniuses" will look like in 2 years. Can't agree more. Sometimes I do feel the elitism is what poisoning this game. it seems that too many people just don't care about low-level(below diamond as OP stated) players despite they made up over half of active players on ladder. A game has to be balanced around the top, making fundamental changes that aid lower levels players to artificially attain a higher skill level hinders the higher league players ability to differentiate themselves. This is the problem with removing barriers of skill level is that you're just weakening the visibility of skill level, something which goes against their goals for Legacy. Mule is the exception, there's no efficiency drop and it stacks there's no form of punishment for not dropping it (besides not getting the 270 minerals earlier) I wouldn't be adverse to changing the mule to allow better players to demonstrate better mechanics.
There will be no top without lower level players. Because there will be no viewers without lower level players. Because there will be no sponsors without lower level players. Because there will be no money without lower level players. Because there will be no tournaments without lower level players. Because there will be no sense training hard for 12 hours a day for free without lower level players.
Don't you guys really see that? It is a more casual starcraft or no starcraft at all! I know that you are not happy about that. Me neither. But please just try to understand the big picture!!!
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The game need more casual players and not stressful mechanics.
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I don't understand this whole discussion. The point of LotV was to increase the skill ceilling, so better players have an easier time differentiating themselves. Simplifying the game even more will make the game more like the Nexus Wars arcade map. Can't argue over taste, but I think if you think that's fun, you understand the game on the same level as your mechanics are.
On August 05 2015 19:10 sh1RoKen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 18:55 Linear wrote:On August 05 2015 18:13 Yiome wrote:On August 05 2015 17:45 sh1RoKen wrote:
No casual players -> no viewers -> no sponsors -> no money -> no tournaments -> no progamers -> no starcraft.
More casual players -> more viewers -> more sponsors -> more money -> more tournaments -> more progamers -> more starcraft.
That is the MOBA recipe for being a successful competitive game and they (MOBAs) are beating the shit out of starcraft right now. More and more people can afford living being a MOBA progamer all over the world (not in just one country). And they are developing 10 times faster than starcraft in order to become a worldwide sport.
Meanwhile "thi bast geme evar" or "altimate brein campetition" is dying in convulsions. Top-level starcraft events have less viewers than above average MOBA player's streams with no comments.
And for those who "Will be playing hardcore starcraft no matter what because they are to smart for MOBA". Stop lying to yourself and look at warcraft 3 competitive scene. What? You can't? Why? Because there is no such thing? Well, that is exactly how "hardcore starcraft only for geniuses" will look like in 2 years. Can't agree more. Sometimes I do feel the elitism is what poisoning this game. it seems that too many people just don't care about low-level(below diamond as OP stated) players despite they made up over half of active players on ladder. A game has to be balanced around the top, making fundamental changes that aid lower levels players to artificially attain a higher skill level hinders the higher league players ability to differentiate themselves. This is the problem with removing barriers of skill level is that you're just weakening the visibility of skill level, something which goes against their goals for Legacy. Mule is the exception, there's no efficiency drop and it stacks there's no form of punishment for not dropping it (besides not getting the 270 minerals earlier) I wouldn't be adverse to changing the mule to allow better players to demonstrate better mechanics. There will be no top without lower level players. Because there will be no viewers without lower level players. Because there will be no sponsors without lower level players. Because there will be no money without lower level players. Because there will be no tournaments without lower level players. Because there will be no sense training hard for 12 hours a day for free without lower level players. Don't you guys really see that? It is a more casual starcraft or no starcraft at all! I know that you are not happy about that. Me neither. But please just try to understand the big picture!!!
You argue that lowering the mechanical skill ceilling makes the game more fun for lower level players, which means that lower level players will be watching the game more often. Instead of a counterargument, I will ask you: what makes you so certain that an SC2 with a lower skill ceilling means more people will watch the game?
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On August 05 2015 19:10 sh1RoKen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 18:55 Linear wrote:On August 05 2015 18:13 Yiome wrote:On August 05 2015 17:45 sh1RoKen wrote:
No casual players -> no viewers -> no sponsors -> no money -> no tournaments -> no progamers -> no starcraft.
More casual players -> more viewers -> more sponsors -> more money -> more tournaments -> more progamers -> more starcraft.
That is the MOBA recipe for being a successful competitive game and they (MOBAs) are beating the shit out of starcraft right now. More and more people can afford living being a MOBA progamer all over the world (not in just one country). And they are developing 10 times faster than starcraft in order to become a worldwide sport.
Meanwhile "thi bast geme evar" or "altimate brein campetition" is dying in convulsions. Top-level starcraft events have less viewers than above average MOBA player's streams with no comments.
And for those who "Will be playing hardcore starcraft no matter what because they are to smart for MOBA". Stop lying to yourself and look at warcraft 3 competitive scene. What? You can't? Why? Because there is no such thing? Well, that is exactly how "hardcore starcraft only for geniuses" will look like in 2 years. Can't agree more. Sometimes I do feel the elitism is what poisoning this game. it seems that too many people just don't care about low-level(below diamond as OP stated) players despite they made up over half of active players on ladder. A game has to be balanced around the top, making fundamental changes that aid lower levels players to artificially attain a higher skill level hinders the higher league players ability to differentiate themselves. This is the problem with removing barriers of skill level is that you're just weakening the visibility of skill level, something which goes against their goals for Legacy. Mule is the exception, there's no efficiency drop and it stacks there's no form of punishment for not dropping it (besides not getting the 270 minerals earlier) I wouldn't be adverse to changing the mule to allow better players to demonstrate better mechanics. There will be no top without lower level players. Because there will be no viewers without lower level players. Because there will be no sponsors without lower level players. Because there will be no money without lower level players. Because there will be no tournaments without lower level players. Because there will be no sense training hard for 12 hours a day for free without lower level players. Don't you guys really see that? It is a more casual starcraft or no starcraft at all! I know that you are not happy about that. Me neither. But please just try to understand the big picture!!!
This is a silly argument, viewer numbers are stable and the game is doing very well for itself.
WCS system injects $198,500 per WCS EU/NA and the same for the GSL x6. So that's $1,191,000 then add in the finals which is $237,500, so a nice total just from blizzard of $1,428,500.
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I don't mind the game being harder, make it more visible and impactful.
what's the point of on time macro-ing if viewers won't notice?
The only viewer friendly macro mechanics is queen creep spread.
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Russian Federation93 Posts
On August 05 2015 19:47 Bojas wrote:I don't understand this whole discussion. The point of LotV was to increase the skill ceilling, so better players have an easier time differentiating themselves. Simplifying the game even more will make the game more like the Nexus Wars arcade map. Can't argue over taste, but I think if you think that's fun, you understand the game on the same level as your mechanics are. Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 19:10 sh1RoKen wrote:On August 05 2015 18:55 Linear wrote:On August 05 2015 18:13 Yiome wrote:On August 05 2015 17:45 sh1RoKen wrote:
No casual players -> no viewers -> no sponsors -> no money -> no tournaments -> no progamers -> no starcraft.
More casual players -> more viewers -> more sponsors -> more money -> more tournaments -> more progamers -> more starcraft.
That is the MOBA recipe for being a successful competitive game and they (MOBAs) are beating the shit out of starcraft right now. More and more people can afford living being a MOBA progamer all over the world (not in just one country). And they are developing 10 times faster than starcraft in order to become a worldwide sport.
Meanwhile "thi bast geme evar" or "altimate brein campetition" is dying in convulsions. Top-level starcraft events have less viewers than above average MOBA player's streams with no comments.
And for those who "Will be playing hardcore starcraft no matter what because they are to smart for MOBA". Stop lying to yourself and look at warcraft 3 competitive scene. What? You can't? Why? Because there is no such thing? Well, that is exactly how "hardcore starcraft only for geniuses" will look like in 2 years. Can't agree more. Sometimes I do feel the elitism is what poisoning this game. it seems that too many people just don't care about low-level(below diamond as OP stated) players despite they made up over half of active players on ladder. A game has to be balanced around the top, making fundamental changes that aid lower levels players to artificially attain a higher skill level hinders the higher league players ability to differentiate themselves. This is the problem with removing barriers of skill level is that you're just weakening the visibility of skill level, something which goes against their goals for Legacy. Mule is the exception, there's no efficiency drop and it stacks there's no form of punishment for not dropping it (besides not getting the 270 minerals earlier) I wouldn't be adverse to changing the mule to allow better players to demonstrate better mechanics. There will be no top without lower level players. Because there will be no viewers without lower level players. Because there will be no sponsors without lower level players. Because there will be no money without lower level players. Because there will be no tournaments without lower level players. Because there will be no sense training hard for 12 hours a day for free without lower level players. Don't you guys really see that? It is a more casual starcraft or no starcraft at all! I know that you are not happy about that. Me neither. But please just try to understand the big picture!!! You argue that lowering the mechanical skill ceilling makes the game more fun for lower level players, which means that lower level players will be watching the game more often. Instead of a counterargument, I will ask you: what makes you so certain that an SC2 with a lower skill ceilling means more people will watch the game?
Lower level players will not be watching the game more often. The same percentage of gamers (both casual and hardcore) will watch tournaments. More gamers we have -> more viewers we have.
And here is some facts:
We have 593 GM players and 7714 Master league players (US+EU+KR/TW). 8307 hardcore players total.
We also have 141656 players in Diamond or lower league.
149963 Players total. 15% of them will probably watch Blizzcon finals = 22494.
Let's make starcraft twice harder -> twice more interesting for GM and Master league players -> twice less interesting for Diamond and lower league players:
We will end with 16614 hardcore players and 70828 casual players. 87442 players total. 13116 viewers.
Let's make starcraft twice easier -> twice less interesting for GM and Master league players -> twice more interesting for Diamond and lower league players:
We will end with 4154 hardcore players and 283312 casual players. 287466 players total. 43120 viewers.
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Russian Federation93 Posts
On August 05 2015 20:04 Linear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 19:10 sh1RoKen wrote:On August 05 2015 18:55 Linear wrote:On August 05 2015 18:13 Yiome wrote:On August 05 2015 17:45 sh1RoKen wrote:
No casual players -> no viewers -> no sponsors -> no money -> no tournaments -> no progamers -> no starcraft.
More casual players -> more viewers -> more sponsors -> more money -> more tournaments -> more progamers -> more starcraft.
That is the MOBA recipe for being a successful competitive game and they (MOBAs) are beating the shit out of starcraft right now. More and more people can afford living being a MOBA progamer all over the world (not in just one country). And they are developing 10 times faster than starcraft in order to become a worldwide sport.
Meanwhile "thi bast geme evar" or "altimate brein campetition" is dying in convulsions. Top-level starcraft events have less viewers than above average MOBA player's streams with no comments.
And for those who "Will be playing hardcore starcraft no matter what because they are to smart for MOBA". Stop lying to yourself and look at warcraft 3 competitive scene. What? You can't? Why? Because there is no such thing? Well, that is exactly how "hardcore starcraft only for geniuses" will look like in 2 years. Can't agree more. Sometimes I do feel the elitism is what poisoning this game. it seems that too many people just don't care about low-level(below diamond as OP stated) players despite they made up over half of active players on ladder. A game has to be balanced around the top, making fundamental changes that aid lower levels players to artificially attain a higher skill level hinders the higher league players ability to differentiate themselves. This is the problem with removing barriers of skill level is that you're just weakening the visibility of skill level, something which goes against their goals for Legacy. Mule is the exception, there's no efficiency drop and it stacks there's no form of punishment for not dropping it (besides not getting the 270 minerals earlier) I wouldn't be adverse to changing the mule to allow better players to demonstrate better mechanics. There will be no top without lower level players. Because there will be no viewers without lower level players. Because there will be no sponsors without lower level players. Because there will be no money without lower level players. Because there will be no tournaments without lower level players. Because there will be no sense training hard for 12 hours a day for free without lower level players. Don't you guys really see that? It is a more casual starcraft or no starcraft at all! I know that you are not happy about that. Me neither. But please just try to understand the big picture!!! This is a silly argument, viewer numbers are stable and the game is doing very well for itself. WCS system injects $198,500 per WCS EU/NA and the same for the GSL x6. So that's $1,191,000 then add in the finals which is $237,500, so a nice total just from blizzard of $1,428,500.
Very impressive numbers. For 2010.
TI5 prize pool is bigger than all StarCraft 2 tournaments since the release of the game together.
When there is no tournaments running, Starcraft has less viewers than minecraft or World of Tanks. Minecraft, Carl!
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If a player doesn't enjoy the macro mechanics of their race they are free to change, the choice exists every game. I enjoy the game being more about multitasking and mechanics, because their should be more than one way to differentiate yourself from your peers regardless of the playing level you are at.
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On August 05 2015 20:44 sh1RoKen wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 20:04 Linear wrote:On August 05 2015 19:10 sh1RoKen wrote:On August 05 2015 18:55 Linear wrote:On August 05 2015 18:13 Yiome wrote:On August 05 2015 17:45 sh1RoKen wrote:
No casual players -> no viewers -> no sponsors -> no money -> no tournaments -> no progamers -> no starcraft.
More casual players -> more viewers -> more sponsors -> more money -> more tournaments -> more progamers -> more starcraft.
That is the MOBA recipe for being a successful competitive game and they (MOBAs) are beating the shit out of starcraft right now. More and more people can afford living being a MOBA progamer all over the world (not in just one country). And they are developing 10 times faster than starcraft in order to become a worldwide sport.
Meanwhile "thi bast geme evar" or "altimate brein campetition" is dying in convulsions. Top-level starcraft events have less viewers than above average MOBA player's streams with no comments.
And for those who "Will be playing hardcore starcraft no matter what because they are to smart for MOBA". Stop lying to yourself and look at warcraft 3 competitive scene. What? You can't? Why? Because there is no such thing? Well, that is exactly how "hardcore starcraft only for geniuses" will look like in 2 years. Can't agree more. Sometimes I do feel the elitism is what poisoning this game. it seems that too many people just don't care about low-level(below diamond as OP stated) players despite they made up over half of active players on ladder. A game has to be balanced around the top, making fundamental changes that aid lower levels players to artificially attain a higher skill level hinders the higher league players ability to differentiate themselves. This is the problem with removing barriers of skill level is that you're just weakening the visibility of skill level, something which goes against their goals for Legacy. Mule is the exception, there's no efficiency drop and it stacks there's no form of punishment for not dropping it (besides not getting the 270 minerals earlier) I wouldn't be adverse to changing the mule to allow better players to demonstrate better mechanics. There will be no top without lower level players. Because there will be no viewers without lower level players. Because there will be no sponsors without lower level players. Because there will be no money without lower level players. Because there will be no tournaments without lower level players. Because there will be no sense training hard for 12 hours a day for free without lower level players. Don't you guys really see that? It is a more casual starcraft or no starcraft at all! I know that you are not happy about that. Me neither. But please just try to understand the big picture!!! This is a silly argument, viewer numbers are stable and the game is doing very well for itself. WCS system injects $198,500 per WCS EU/NA and the same for the GSL x6. So that's $1,191,000 then add in the finals which is $237,500, so a nice total just from blizzard of $1,428,500. Very impressive numbers. For 2010. TI5 prize pool is bigger than all StarCraft 2 tournaments since the release of the game together. When there is no tournaments running, Starcraft has less viewers than minecraft or World of Tanks. Minecraft, Carl!
WCS wasn't even around in 2010, the numbers are from the current prizes in 2015 feel free to work it out.
TI5 prize pool isn't fair to compare to SC2 since the money invested into the tournament is crowd funded, anyway why does the amount of money on offer even matter, do people play the game because if they became number #1 in the world they're rich?
I've noticed SC2 actually have more stream watchers recently, with people like Demuslim/Naniwa and other popular players streaming more regularly the viewership is climbing back up, as Incontrol has said many times before why do we need to be the biggest and best? SC2 is sustainable has a core viewerbase/playerbase that's not going anywhere why are we worried?
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I could not have put it any better than the OP.
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Russian Federation93 Posts
On August 05 2015 20:56 Linear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2015 20:44 sh1RoKen wrote:On August 05 2015 20:04 Linear wrote:On August 05 2015 19:10 sh1RoKen wrote:On August 05 2015 18:55 Linear wrote:On August 05 2015 18:13 Yiome wrote:On August 05 2015 17:45 sh1RoKen wrote:
No casual players -> no viewers -> no sponsors -> no money -> no tournaments -> no progamers -> no starcraft.
More casual players -> more viewers -> more sponsors -> more money -> more tournaments -> more progamers -> more starcraft.
That is the MOBA recipe for being a successful competitive game and they (MOBAs) are beating the shit out of starcraft right now. More and more people can afford living being a MOBA progamer all over the world (not in just one country). And they are developing 10 times faster than starcraft in order to become a worldwide sport.
Meanwhile "thi bast geme evar" or "altimate brein campetition" is dying in convulsions. Top-level starcraft events have less viewers than above average MOBA player's streams with no comments.
And for those who "Will be playing hardcore starcraft no matter what because they are to smart for MOBA". Stop lying to yourself and look at warcraft 3 competitive scene. What? You can't? Why? Because there is no such thing? Well, that is exactly how "hardcore starcraft only for geniuses" will look like in 2 years. Can't agree more. Sometimes I do feel the elitism is what poisoning this game. it seems that too many people just don't care about low-level(below diamond as OP stated) players despite they made up over half of active players on ladder. A game has to be balanced around the top, making fundamental changes that aid lower levels players to artificially attain a higher skill level hinders the higher league players ability to differentiate themselves. This is the problem with removing barriers of skill level is that you're just weakening the visibility of skill level, something which goes against their goals for Legacy. Mule is the exception, there's no efficiency drop and it stacks there's no form of punishment for not dropping it (besides not getting the 270 minerals earlier) I wouldn't be adverse to changing the mule to allow better players to demonstrate better mechanics. There will be no top without lower level players. Because there will be no viewers without lower level players. Because there will be no sponsors without lower level players. Because there will be no money without lower level players. Because there will be no tournaments without lower level players. Because there will be no sense training hard for 12 hours a day for free without lower level players. Don't you guys really see that? It is a more casual starcraft or no starcraft at all! I know that you are not happy about that. Me neither. But please just try to understand the big picture!!! This is a silly argument, viewer numbers are stable and the game is doing very well for itself. WCS system injects $198,500 per WCS EU/NA and the same for the GSL x6. So that's $1,191,000 then add in the finals which is $237,500, so a nice total just from blizzard of $1,428,500. Very impressive numbers. For 2010. TI5 prize pool is bigger than all StarCraft 2 tournaments since the release of the game together. When there is no tournaments running, Starcraft has less viewers than minecraft or World of Tanks. Minecraft, Carl! WCS wasn't even around in 2010, the numbers are from the current prizes in 2015 feel free to work it out. TI5 prize pool isn't fair to compare to SC2 since the money invested into the tournament is crowd funded, anyway why does the amount of money on offer even matter, do people play the game because if they became number #1 in the world they're rich? I've noticed SC2 actually have more stream watchers recently, with people like Demuslim/Naniwa and other popular players streaming more regularly the viewership is climbing back up, as Incontrol has said many times before why do we need to be the biggest and best? SC2 is sustainable has a core viewerbase/playerbase that's not going anywhere why are we worried?
That was sarcasm. 1.5m in a year is just not "doing very well" nowadays. If you don't want Starcraft to be the biggest and best, there is no point discussing anymore. We just want the opposite things.
P.S.
There is no such thing as sustainable core which is not going anywhere. If you don't develop, you degrade and die.
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On August 05 2015 11:46 TedCruz2016 wrote:
The only foreseeable result of cutting macro is making all three races homogeneous and losing their uniqueness.
The macro mechanics are what makes the races unique?
On August 05 2015 14:17 L3x_Luthor wrote:
This whole "It's pointless/boring/unfun to inject" argument is ridiculous because there are plenty of other aggravations in the game that are still very essential.
It's ridiculous to want pointless/boring/unfun things to be removed? SC2 is not supposed to be meaningful/fun? Would it be a bad thing if blizz removed ALL the aggravations and just left the fun bits?
Do people really feel like that only thing stopping them from hitting the "skill ceiling" is the macro mechanics?
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Half-jokingly - I have seen this discussion already, when Rovio introduced power-ups in Angry Birds and true players were mad because the game was made easier, dumber, more accessible to casuals who cannot flick birds with the correct angle...
Jokes aside, I doubt that removing macro mechanics will achieve the declared goal. It would be dramatically hard for Starcraft to dethrone LoL, DOTA2 or CS:GO in terms of viewership and popularity - even if the mechanics are removed, automated or otherwise simplified - because it would still be just an attempt to force the design of RTS game to make it more eye-catching. This will not be enough. The viewers will still have to understand the relationships between the units, the remaining (and gruesome in LotV) macro requirements, just to marginally enjoy the game.
Let's face it - we fell in love in a difficult game. Even if we want everybody to watch it, sponsor the tournaments and pro careers, this will not happen. RTS as a genre have been disappearing from the market for a reason.
I have always seen Starcraft as an e-sport equivalent of snooker. A mechanically and strategically demanding game, which is not accessible to the general public (steep learning curve), not particularly flashy (a basketball slam dunk vs. a great ball pot in snooker vs. perfect marine splitting - which will be the most appealing for the public?) and not as easy to understand as the most popular sports (football vs. snooker; compare FPS like CS:GO vs. RTS).
Sticking to the snooker analogy: let's widen the pockets in the table and allow players to pot two red balls in a row. This would surely decrease the entry barriers for new players, widen the playerbase and subsequently the viewerbase and so on and so on? Well, no. It would make snooker easier for pros, but the average Joe still wouldn't be able to pot more than two balls in a row or plan a break without some serious practice. And it wouldn't make snooker as popular as basketball or football.
By the way, as a plat/diamond player (casually casual, 80-90 APM, at most 10-15 games a week), I find LotV difficult as hell. I often fail to use macro mechanics just because there is so much to think about and not enough muscle memory to do it (still trying to figure out new unit skills). And I'm starting to like it that way, trying to climb up from aggresive one-base play (mass adepts, anyone?) to more macro-oriented strategies. Removing macro mechanics right now wouldn't change much from my perspective - instead of failing to use them, I just wouldn't have the chance to use them. But it would surely take away some room for improvement and differentiation between me and other players.
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Russian Federation93 Posts
On August 05 2015 21:38 corydoras wrote:
Half-jokingly - I have seen this discussion already, when Rovio introduced power-ups in Angry Birds and true players were mad because the game was made easier, dumber, more accessible to casuals who cannot flick birds with the correct angle...
Jokes aside, I doubt that removing macro mechanics will achieve the declared goal. It would be dramatically hard for Starcraft to dethrone LoL, DOTA2 or CS:GO in terms of viewership and popularity - even if the mechanics are removed, automated or otherwise simplified - because it would still be just an attempt to force the design of RTS game to make it more eye-catching. This will not be enough. The viewers will still have to understand the relationships between the units, the remaining (and gruesome in LotV) macro requirements, just to marginally enjoy the game.
Let's face it - we fell in love in a difficult game. Even if we want everybody to watch it, sponsor the tournaments and pro careers, this will not happen. RTS as a genre have been disappearing from the market for a reason.
I have always seen Starcraft as an e-sport equivalent of snooker. A mechanically and strategically demanding game, which is not accessible to the general public (steep learning curve), not particularly flashy (a basketball slam dunk vs. a great ball pot in snooker vs. perfect marine splitting - which will be the most appealing for the public?) and not as easy to understand as the most popular sports (football vs. snooker; compare FPS like CS:GO vs. RTS).
Sticking to the snooker analogy: let's widen the pockets in the table and allow players to pot two red balls in a row. This would surely decrease the entry barriers for new players, widen the playerbase and subsequently the viewerbase and so on and so on? Well, no. It would make snooker easier for pros, but the average Joe still wouldn't be able to pot more than two balls in a row or plan a break without some serious practice. And it wouldn't make snooker as popular as basketball or football.
By the way, as a plat/diamond player (casually casual, 80-90 APM, at most 10-15 games a week), I find LotV difficult as hell. I often fail to use macro mechanics just because there is so much to think about and not enough muscle memory to do it (still trying to figure out new unit skills). And I'm starting to like it that way, trying to climb up from aggresive one-base play (mass adepts, anyone?) to more macro-oriented strategies. Removing macro mechanics right now wouldn't change much from my perspective - instead of failing to use them, I just wouldn't have the chance to use them. But it would surely take away some room for improvement and differentiation between me and other players.
Making macro mechanics easier will just transfer the game from ((You vs Macro) vs (Me vs Macro)) to (You vs Me). It would not make the game easier. Your opponent must be the only factor that should make the game easier/harder for you.
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Guys, don't get delusional about the effect of removing macro mechanics. It's not going to make the game supereasy for noobs and it is not going to make every professional have amazing macro. There are still lots of struggles with you against the macro/build order in the game and there are still tons of things to distinguish players. More than ever in LotV.
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EPT
