EPTIt was cool to see 12min max roach in the first weeks, but now? Terribly boring to see, Everyone can do it now. Actually I stopped to play sc2 because of "macro and economy is everything in sc2".
Community Feedback Update - July 31st - Page 16
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Dingodile
4133 Posts
It was cool to see 12min max roach in the first weeks, but now? Terribly boring to see, Everyone can do it now. Actually I stopped to play sc2 because of "macro and economy is everything in sc2". | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24193 Posts
I'll reiterate here that I'm fine with a warpgate change, but that the one suggested doesn't seem neither elegant nor efficient to me. It will just give more incentive to use adepts + warp prism all-ins (= make them even more broken than some already are). Come back to your first suggestion (splitting warp-in power and energy), I think there is far more to gain from that idea. | ||
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Jenia6109
Russian Federation1612 Posts
On August 02 2015 12:09 BisuDagger wrote: And the reason why watching BeSt was amazing is because of macro. Macro in BW - Get half of the map with 7-8 bases as fast as you can Macro in SC2 - Get 3-4 bases, drop mules, watch your economy grow And that's why mules are not a macro actually | ||
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Penev
28475 Posts
Also: These changes are big. They're not the economy changes I would like to see but still, good to see that everything else at least is being looked at. Now just remove the Liberator and try again with a different Terran unit. Proposal (again): Add the Spectre from the campaign. This will give you loads of opportunity to make changes to Terran game play and might help in your struggle with the Ghost. Give them specific roles; One vs mechanical and the other vs Bio for instance. Proposal: Experiment with combined ugrades for Terran. Not the regular ones but have cloak be available for both Ghost (and Spectre) and Banshee one's researched and maybe even transform for both Hellbat and Viking(!). Edit: Also proposed al long time ago (WoL era): To give the Thor a specific role make it like an air control siege tank. I called it "Flak cannons" back then (: So either have it in regular mode or in a stationary air control mode. And pls redesign the Hellion (and to a lesser extend the Cyclone) to look more like the tank, they're OCD inducing. Oh and the Tank should have more hp than the cyclone. :F | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
Zerg inject has zero complexity ( you always want to inject ) but I can understand it for Terran and Protoss, but difficulty? I don't get that. Let's say we eliminate all macro mechanics, completely. Macro won't be easier, it will just be different, supply timings will become more critical, both players won't be able to actually make up for lost macro time so it will become MORE punishing to let your macro slip up. You will have more time to focus on your micro, but so will your opponent. The game will be different for sure, but easier? Why? Do you really think that eliminating these mechanics will leave you with enough time to do all the other micro perfectly? Of course not. Now, as a Zerg player, let me tell you something, inject sucks, it isn't fun, it isn't interesting, it's difficult in all the wrong ways. Now, after five years, we gotten used to it and yeah it is fun doing something difficult well, so I like injecting well. But I would love, LOVE, to never have to do it again and focus on stuff like actual macro 'Decisions'. What to make, when to make it, how many overlords to get. And be punished when I make those decisions wrong instead of when I miss a timing test that people have literally made metronome apps for. Down with injects! Five years too long!! | ||
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91matt
United Kingdom147 Posts
On August 02 2015 18:50 IcemanAsi wrote: I don't get people who complain about losing complexity or difficulty in regards to reducing these macro mechanics. Zerg inject has zero complexity ( you always want to inject ) but I can understand it for Terran and Protoss, but difficulty? I don't get that. Let's say we eliminate all macro mechanics, completely. Macro won't be easier, it will just be different, supply timings will become more critical, both players won't be able to actually make up for lost macro time so it will become MORE punishing to let your macro slip up. You will have more time to focus on your micro, but so will your opponent. The game will be different for sure, but easier? Why? Do you really think that eliminating these mechanics will leave you with enough time to do all the other micro perfectly? Of course not. Now, as a Zerg player, let me tell you something, inject sucks, it isn't fun, it isn't interesting, it's difficult in all the wrong ways. Now, after five years, we gotten used to it and yeah it is fun doing something difficult well, so I like injecting well. But I would love, LOVE, to never have to do it again and focus on stuff like actual macro 'Decisions'. What to make, when to make it, how many overlords to get. And be punished when I make those decisions wrong instead of when I miss a timing test that people have literally made metronome apps for. Down with injects! Five years too long!! Just because you don't have the apm to inject perfectly doesn't mean you should remove it. It's an important part of what separates players even at the very top. Someone like Jaedong has perfect injects all the time and is still able to micro amazingly, lots of european pros have sub par injects and it can really hold them back in matchups like tvz. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't complex. It's fucking hard to have perfect injects and anyone who says they do who isn't even grandmaster is lying. You won't see any increase in micro by removing injects, good players are already doing it all. | ||
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
On August 02 2015 19:05 Matt` wrote: Just because you don't have the apm to inject perfectly doesn't mean you should remove it. It's an important part of what separates players even at the very top. Someone like Jaedong has perfect injects all the time and is still able to micro amazingly, lots of european pros have sub par injects and it can really hold them back in matchups like tvz. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't complex. It's fucking hard to have perfect injects and anyone who says they do who isn't even grandmaster is lying. You won't see any increase in micro by removing injects, good players are already doing it all. - I don't miss injects beucase of APM, I miss injects mostly because I'm thinking about something else ( I shouldn't be, it's the most critical thing as zerg ) - No one can "Do it all", SC2 is designed to and is impossible to play perfectly - Seeing it has nothing to do with complexity, it isn't complex because there are no decisions involved ( for zerg ) - Yes, it is extremely hard, a boring, simple, tedious hard. - Of course you will see a change in micro, those seconds you spent on macro mechanics will now be used to micro units - I agree it currently separates players, so what? I prefer macro decisions and micro mechanics separate players. You seem to be confusing complexity with difficulty, inject is difficult but not complex. It might be complex to do it perfectly, but that's not a complexity of the task in itself. | ||
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
On August 02 2015 18:40 Salteador Neo wrote: Just move the warp gate tech into the lategame seriously. The proposed idea is horribad. Why do you think so? | ||
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91matt
United Kingdom147 Posts
On August 02 2015 19:19 IcemanAsi wrote: - I don't miss injects beucase of APM, I miss injects mostly because I'm thinking about something else ( I shouldn't be, it's the most critical thing as zerg ) - No one can "Do it all", SC2 is designed to and is impossible to play perfectly - Seeing it has nothing to do with complexity, it isn't complex because there are no decisions involved ( for zerg ) - Yes, it is extremely hard, a boring, simple, tedious hard. - Of course you will see a change in micro, those seconds you spent on macro mechanics will now be used to micro units - I agree it currently separates players, so what? I prefer macro decisions and micro mechanics separate players. You seem to be confusing complexity with difficulty, inject is difficult but not complex. It might be complex to do it perfectly, but that's not a complexity of the task in itself. What your asking for is for bad players like yourself to have an easier time, injecting is a technique that can take literally years to master there are many layers to injecting and its not just as simple as "oh its monotonous and everyone has do it". You seem to be under the impression it will increase micro (it won't for good players it might for bad ones). You keep talking about decisions and having time to think, good players have already decided what they're going to do minutes before they even do it. You just don't understand the game well enough and that's why you're having to think about things which is something everyone goes through in playing sc2. Injecting does not get in the way of decision making if you're at a high enough level. | ||
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Salteador Neo
Andorra5591 Posts
Does not solve anything and it's confusing. Actually it also makes the warp prism the best toss unit, if it wasnt already, and prism allins stronger. And doesnt buff defensive warpins at all. | ||
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
On August 02 2015 19:59 Matt` wrote: What your asking for is for bad players like yourself to have an easier time, injecting is a technique that can take literally years to master there are many layers to injecting and its not just as simple as "oh its monotonous and everyone has do it". You seem to be under the impression it will increase micro (it won't for good players it might for bad ones). You keep talking about decisions and having time to think, good players have already decided what they're going to do minutes before they even do it. You just don't understand the game well enough and that's why you're having to think about things which is something everyone goes through in playing sc2. Injecting does not get in the way of decision making if you're at a high enough level. - I'm not asking for anything, this change is coming from blizz not me - I'm saying that it WON'T make the game easier because it will shift the foucs to other mechanics and actually be more punishing due to less catch up on bad macro mechanics. - I don't see how you can say it won't increase micro, you can spend more time with your units instead of casting these. - What are the "Layers to injecting" please? - by decisions I mean very small instant decisions, like do I make two overlords or one, not grand strategic decisions. - Everything else is ad hominem and not worth addressing. | ||
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
On August 02 2015 20:00 Salteador Neo wrote: Does not solve anything and it's confusing. Actually it also makes the warp prism the best toss unit, if it wasnt already, and prism allins stronger. And doesnt buff defensive warpins at all. "Does not solve anything and it's confusing" - Solves aggressive warp in being too strong, I'll definitly agree that suggested change is confusing "makes the warp prism the best toss unit" - How is this a problem? "prism allins stronger" - Good point, I have to give you that. "doesnt buff defensive warpins at all" - That's just wrong, you go from 5 seconds to 2 | ||
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91matt
United Kingdom147 Posts
On August 02 2015 20:06 IcemanAsi wrote: - I'm not asking for anything, this change is coming from blizz not me - I'm saying that it WON'T make the game easier because it will shift the foucs to other mechanics and actually be more punishing due to less catch up on bad macro mechanics. - I don't see how you can say it won't increase micro, you can spend more time with your units instead of casting these. - What are the "Layers to injecting" please? - by decisions I mean very small instant decisions, like do I make two overlords or one, not grand strategic decisions. - Everything else is ad hominem and not worth addressing. If injecting was so simple everyone would do it well, they don't, its about multitasking and bad players can't multitask right away they have to learn it. I could go into the details of injects but it would take too long. As for increasing micro where will this increase micro, sc2 battles only take a few seconds and anyone with a brain prioritizes microing their units over a few seconds of missed injects. Literally all this does is make the game easier. | ||
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IcemanAsi
Israel681 Posts
On August 02 2015 20:21 Matt` wrote: If injecting was so simple everyone would do it well, they don't, its about multitasking and bad players can't multitask right away they have to learn it. I could go into the details of injects but it would take too long. As for increasing micro where will this increase micro, sc2 battles only take a few seconds and anyone with a brain prioritizes microing their units over a few seconds of missed injects. Literally all this does is make the game easier. - Again, Your'e confusing difficult and complex. injecting is very difficult, it's not complex at all. - "I could go into the details of injects but it would take too long." it's okay, I have the time. - SC2 battles do NOT take seconds, that's ridiculous, some engagements are fast but let's say defending a blink stalker attack with zerg takes minutes, and managing ling/muta against Terran is a constant struggle while you macro and control units at the same time. - Now, you're only coherent point is that it's a multitasking challenge, I agree, everything in SC2 is a multitasking challenge. But injecting is a boring, simple, tedious challenge, that adds nothing to the depth of the game. At this point you seem to be ignoring my answers and just restating your position again and again, pointless. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
If injecting was so simple everyone would do it well, they don't, its about multitasking and bad players can't multitask right away they have to learn it. I could go into the details of injects but it would take too long. Punishing bad players is actually a bad thing. What you want to do instead is to reward very good players as that's consistent with the easy-to-learn hard to master concept. Inject unfortunately does the opposite. | ||
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StalkerFang
Australia68 Posts
On August 02 2015 19:59 Matt` wrote: What your asking for is for bad players like yourself to have an easier time, injecting is a technique that can take literally years to master there are many layers to injecting and its not just as simple as "oh its monotonous and everyone has do it". You seem to be under the impression it will increase micro (it won't for good players it might for bad ones). You keep talking about decisions and having time to think, good players have already decided what they're going to do minutes before they even do it. You just don't understand the game well enough and that's why you're having to think about things which is something everyone goes through in playing sc2. Injecting does not get in the way of decision making if you're at a high enough level. What exactly does it add at that high level though? For new players it's just frustrating, for top-tier players you pretty much have to hit all injects anyway. It doesn't really improve the playing experience and it doesn't really improve the viewing experience. Why keep it? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
But then you don't have to make choices anymore. Some players (e.g. Fantasy, who is this to the extreme) generally elect to focus on army control and multitask over macro, which is a valid choice. Other players decide that controlling multiple armies isn't worth it. But with the direction that this stuff is going in, then everyone would play like Fantasy but not mess up their macro, which I think is a little silly. This is a valid argument, and while its not my prefered way to add diversity, a very high macro skillcap can definitely help seperate player identities. However, Sc2 doesn't have this skillcap. Top players aren't seperated by their macro skills, but only by whether they play a macrostyle (e.g. doesn't allin) or more aggressive. The real effect of Sc2 macromechanics is to make it harder for nonskilled players which is exactly what you do not want. Sc2 macro is a bit of middle-of-the roadh thing here where it has the worst of both worlds. Either macro should have a much much higher skillcap so it seperated players or it should be made much easier so players could focus more on controlling units, which most players prefer. | ||
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91matt
United Kingdom147 Posts
On August 02 2015 20:39 Hider wrote: Punishing bad players is actually a bad thing. What you want to do instead is to reward very good players as that's consistent with the easy-to-learn hard to master concept. Inject unfortunately does the opposite. Injecting is easy to learn and hard to master that's the point, and there are pro players out there who are still far from mastering it. | ||
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91matt
United Kingdom147 Posts
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