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http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/19825246/legacy-of-the-void-beta-balance-update-july-16-2015-7-16-2015
General
Siege tanks and Immortals will now track the nearest enemy while moving.
Added mini-map icons for destructible rocks and destructible towers.
Made improvements when controlling a large number of air units.
Protoss
Disruptor
Cost reduced to 100/200.
Supply reduced to 3.
Purification Nova
Range reduced to 1.5.
After Purification Nova ends, the Disruptor is invulnerable for 3 seconds.
Speed when invulnerable increased to 4.25.
Can be picked up by Warp Prism during Purification Nova, canceling its effect.
Terran
Vehicle and ship armor upgrades have been combined.
Ghost
New Ability: Steady Targeting.
Deals 170 damage after channeling for 3 seconds.
Can be interrupted if Ghost is attacked.
Costs 50 energy.
Liberator
Anti-Ground Mode no longer has to be researched; now only requires an Armory.
Switching back to Anti-Air mode duration reduced to 2 seconds.
Increased Anti-Ground range by 1.
Fixed issue allowing Liberators to fire into multiple AG zones.
Raven
Auto turret
Damage increased to 16.
Duration decreased to 10 seconds.
Seeker missile cost increased to 125.
Durable materials upgrade removed.
New Upgrade: Explosive Shrapnel Shells.
Increases damage of Seeker Missile and Auto Turret by 30%.
Zerg
Ravager
Range increased to 6.
Poll: Disruptor changeNay (132) 48% Yay (90) 33% Meh (53) 19% 275 total votes Your vote: Disruptor change (Vote): Yay
(Vote): Nay
(Vote): Meh
Poll: Ghost changeYay (163) 72% Meh (33) 15% Nay (31) 14% 227 total votes Your vote: Ghost change (Vote): Yay
(Vote): Nay
(Vote): Meh
Poll: Liberator changeYay (102) 52% Nay (53) 27% Meh (42) 21% 197 total votes Your vote: Liberator change (Vote): Yay
(Vote): Nay
(Vote): Meh
Poll: Raven changeYay (129) 60% Nay (62) 29% Meh (23) 11% 214 total votes Your vote: Raven change (Vote): Yay
(Vote): Nay
(Vote): Meh
Poll: Ravager changeYay (147) 71% Nay (30) 15% Meh (29) 14% 206 total votes Your vote: Ravager change (Vote): Yay
(Vote): Nay
(Vote): Meh
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wait auto turrets went from 3 mins to 10 sec or am i reading this wrong. if so kinda huge cool that it has a dmg buff but damn. i mean 3 mins was always to long but 3 mins to 10 sec kinda crazy
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Disruptor is just way to gimmick, Invulnerable after detonation... its stupid... how could this unit ever die.The player has to be really bad.
Ghost change looks good but it doesnt show any range, is this ability without any range !?
Liberator is to powerful as it is... the damage 1 shots hydras. If anything this unit might have needed a nerf and a lower price.
I like the Raven change, it stops mass ravens.
Ravager range returned to 6 good was a very logical one but still the price is to big for an ability that its so easy to dodge. It needs to be cheaper or the ability has to have a bigger impact.
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Damage increased to 16.
Duration decreased to 10 seconds.
Seeker missile cost increased to 125.
Durable materials upgrade removed.
New Upgrade: Explosive Shrapnel Shells.
Increases damage of Seeker Missile and Auto Turret by 30%.
Seems like an incredibly dull redesign of the Raven. The whole "force enemy to cast Seeker Missile --> Run away with army"-dynamic in TvT/TvZ is boring as crap, and the change to Seeker only further incentiviez this interaction.
Instead, Seeker should always hit the single target (after a launch delay) and instead have much lower single-target damage (and perhaps larger radius) so it would be more about splitting than moving the entire army away.
Placing an Auto-Turret is not fun in either way, and I guess this will make them more similar to Infested Terrans, but without the potential for placing ITs on top of enemy units (like Siege tanks). So essentially a more boring version of Infested Terrans.
No need to talk more about PDD (aka worst designed ability in the game).
@ Disruptor
I think it was correct to reduce the risk/reward of the unit, but invulnerability post activation seems dumb as it removes counterplay. A general speed increase from 2.25 to 2.5 (with a 1.6 modifier when activated) would be enough along with the cost reduction.
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
On July 17 2015 07:42 starslayer wrote:
wait auto turrets went from 3 mins to 10 sec or am i reading this wrong. if so kinda huge cool that it has a dmg buff but damn. i mean 3 mins was always to long but 3 mins to 10 sec kinda crazy
They are for harass now, and I think Ravens now are terran gimmick way to harass, like Swarm Hosts.
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I think they should make the disruptor fire 2 or 3 times (with warp-prism enabled deactivation), and invuln is cancelled after the last one. Give some choice about risk/reward, though it would make the friendly fire a bit of a nuisance.
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Did they really buffed the Liberator? lol....
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Nothing about the early game Cyclone antiair 
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3 seconds of invulnerability feels long, but only by a bit considering how much smaller the splash radius is
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Apparently the Raven was dramatically overpowered in HOTS. Yes, Avilo does do things with them, and I would also cheese my buddy who wasn't quite as good as I was with them. But zero players who get paid to win games won games with Ravens. One wonders why the Raven needed this many nerfs if they never won a pro-level game. Also, LOTV has the biggest nerf to raven flocks of all time: the Viper Plague bomb spell.
If they are going to make turrets only last 10 seconds, how about a way to cast them in a fight? Right now, enemy units disrupt the placement of the turret because the turret is a building for purposes of placement. If the turret did a knockback, or if the turret was a unit, then the 10 seconds might allow placement to be used in a fight. With only 10 seconds, you can never use the turrets to zone areas out. They must be placed as the fight is going on or they end up doing nothing.
And wow, that seeker missile nerf. I mean really. Was seeker missile that OP? Did I miss something?
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I think disrupter would change would be better if after exploding it had boosted shields in the same way the immortal ability works.
invulnerable, boom, tougher than normal, back to normal.
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On July 17 2015 08:52 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
Apparently the Raven was dramatically overpowered in HOTS. Yes, Avilo does do things with them, and I would also cheese my buddy who wasn't quite as good as I was with them. But zero players who get paid to win games won games with Ravens. One wonders why the Raven needed this many nerfs if they never won a pro-level game. Also, LOTV has the biggest nerf to raven flocks of all time: the Viper Plague bomb spell.
If they are going to make turrets only last 10 seconds, how about a way to cast them in a fight? Right now, enemy units disrupt the placement of the turret because the turret is a building for purposes of placement. If the turret did a knockback, or if the turret was a unit, then the 10 seconds might allow placement to be used in a fight. With only 10 seconds, you can never use the turrets to zone areas out. They must be placed as the fight is going on or they end up doing nothing.
And wow, that seeker missile nerf. I mean really. Was seeker missile that OP? Did I miss something?
Mass Ravens have been used a LOT this year in pro matches.
Once the Raven count gets large enough zerg can't really do anything other than get a few infestors and hope the terran player completely fucks up and gets them all fungled.
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Autoturret from 180 sec to 10 sec is larger than pdd nerf. Not even 30 seconds?
Buff isn't much though if its 10 seconds. I guess. Think Raven is getting the infestor nerf now.
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I'm not convinced by the new Ghost ability.
Anti-Ground Mode no longer has to be researched; now only requires an Armory.
yay now maybe i'll build some.
Disruptor are bullshit.
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Buffing liberator and giving disruptor invuln after det seems too much
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the disruptor gain invul after detonation but loose the bonus speed, you still need a warpprism to save them anyway
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so the raven is now the most useless unit in the game?
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I'd say in general, all of these changes are attempting to correct real issues in the game and whether or not they work out, this attempt at addressing them is a smart way to test the water. Go blizzard, still rooting for you.
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I really, really wanna know why lycan made that reddit post saying we will "shit our pants" by the end of the year.
TBH i simply don't see blizzard doing anything really meaningfull GAMEPLAYWISE at this point.
Obviously i would be happy to be wrong, but in the end it will be some skins probably
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I actually think the raven will be pretty strong, the auto turret buff is pretty huge.
I wonder how it would affect tvt
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On July 17 2015 09:48 ETisME wrote:
I actually think the raven will be pretty strong, the auto turret buff is pretty huge.
I wonder how it would affect tvt
In the few games I've gotten to use them, they're terrible. The raven might actually be worse than the swarm host now.
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Disruptors are actually awful now from what i have seen, wow
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United Kingdom20284 Posts
On July 17 2015 09:12 Cricketer12 wrote:
Buffing liberator and giving disruptor invuln after det seems too much
Fixed issue allowing Liberators to fire into multiple AG zones.
The only content i've seen with liberators being very strong was with this bug being in place, where you can put 10 zones down and any liberator can fire into any zone.
With one liberator only being able to hit it's individually targetted area, that looks like a huge nerf overall to me. I may be out of touch because there are very rarely any legacy streams up these days, especially at odd hours where i can watch
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On July 17 2015 09:53 HeyImFinn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 09:48 ETisME wrote:
I actually think the raven will be pretty strong, the auto turret buff is pretty huge.
I wonder how it would affect tvt In the few games I've gotten to use them, they're terrible. The raven might actually be worse than the swarm host now.
Swarm Hosts are pretty strong right now with 200/100/3 and flying locusts without an upgrade.
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Instead of trying to salvage the Raven, just wipe the spells clean and rework. Especially with lurkers being in the game, an effective mobile detector and support unit is a niche that needs filling.
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cyclone change not implemented yet any news????
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The Raven looks pretty useless with those changes, meanwhile the Liberator is gonna be even stronger.
With the Ravager changes I fear for Protoss, the Ling drop already limited build options and now Ravagers are back to make things worse.
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10 second autoturret? Is this a joke? This makes the autoturret useless lol
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What if the Disruptor did a percentage instead of straight damage? For example, it does 25% damage to all units in the radius, unless it is massive, then it does 10%.
Or something along those lines.
So, if it softens up a marine by 11.25 HP or so, that may not seem like a lot, but when it does that to all marines in an area and then gets out unscathed, I think it would be worth it.
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10 seconds is a fine amount of time to shred a mineral line
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Raven... oh Raven.. would a rework be beyond measure?
Does the new snipe replace the old snipe or is it in addition to? I really dont see it being all that useful. Damage interupt is going to mean that it cant be used defensively since every unit in the game either has insane range or insane speed. Or maybe its like seeker missile where as long as its cast before theyre out of range it still hits?
Ill reserve judgement.
Disruptor... still feels lazy. I like the idea of it gaining hardened shields or just an hp or shield refresh when it activates. Theyre designing it so it cant fail unless you can afford to take the hits and counter it. So.. the opposite of the idea behind the snipe removing counter play.
Their design philosophy changes on a unit by unit basis and its kind of aggravating. One moment its "this is a bad idea because player agency is removed" but you know when they want to crowbar in poor game design its totally okay to ignore what they said.
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Between split upgrades, parasitic bomb, new carriers and specially the new economy, mass ravens where nerfed big time already. Now they are borderline useless.
I really don't know why they decided to nerf ravens so much, I don't think I've seen anybody (not even Avilo) be succesful with them in LotV.
A redesign would been much better, specially since lurker make terran need mobile detection, but such a straight nerf its simply too much.
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Watching Top's stream, the Liberator bugfix is a _major_ nerf, more than enough to justify the other buffs.
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is it a straight nerf? isn't the burst damage of auto turret increased?
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On July 17 2015 11:08 BruMeister wrote:
What if the Disruptor did a percentage instead of straight damage? For example, it does 25% damage to all units in the radius, unless it is massive, then it does 10%.
Or something along those lines.
It does 10 damage to workers. Woooo.
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On July 17 2015 11:47 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 11:08 BruMeister wrote:
What if the Disruptor did a percentage instead of straight damage? For example, it does 25% damage to all units in the radius, unless it is massive, then it does 10%.
Or something along those lines. It does 10 damage to workers. Woooo.
Well, IMO a disruptor shouldn't be there to decimate worker lines. It should be assisting in battle. So, if it softens up a marine by 11.25 HP or so, that may not seem like a lot, but when it does that to all marines in an area and then gets out unscathed, I think it would be worth it.
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On July 17 2015 11:43 Athenau wrote:
Watching Top's stream, the Liberator bugfix is a _major_ nerf, more than enough to justify the other buffs.
The way it was before was actually really cool
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idk if its the patch or ranked play or if its cause i dont lag every 10 sec but LOTV and sc2 it self is alot of fun again idk if anyone feels the same but its sick again none stop action in a 20 min game (longest ive had all of beta ). feels intense maybe its just me but might actually start playing more again. ( i say this all the time never happen but this might be real this time LOLOLOL)
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United Kingdom20284 Posts
Well, IMO a disruptor shouldn't be there to decimate worker lines. It should be assisting in battle
Reaver was really the golden standard here that they're trying to match without directly porting over.
So, if it softens up a marine by 11.25 HP or so, that may not seem like a lot, but when it does that to all marines in an area and then gets out unscathed, I think it would be worth it.
And then he puts 10 medivacs over his marines and your super expensive, highest tier in the game robo units can't actually kill them. Disruptor as-is worked because it just oneshot them. Colossi could do waves of damage very suddenly leaving no time for medivac healing etc, and templars came with the potential to hit far harder than you're proposing (80 damage over a considerable area) while also having Feedback to shut down or even kill medivacs. You could also just warp in 8 of them on the spot if you had the gas, robo time is much more precious.
An anti-ground AOE unit that can't kill MMM is just not good enough to invest heavily in. We're still in the logic of gateway units being worse than the infantry options for the other 2 races -because- this high level tech stuff exists for protoss that can level the playing field
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On July 17 2015 11:43 mishimaBeef wrote:
is it a straight nerf? isn't the burst damage of auto turret increased?
yeah but the space control of a 3 min auto turret is eliminated, its now 10 seconds...seems like a straight nerf to me. the increased damage doesn't do much in the scenarios where autoturrets are best
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I will have to see the Disruptor change to really understand lol
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Any videos or thoughts about the turret tracking change from anyone who has played with it?
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I noticed an undocumented balance change:
Removed Protoss race from the game.
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I love how they took my advice and went the other direction with it. I asked them to make the disruptor physically larger more food, and more cost they were like the fuck does this waygook know but, lets surprise him.
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I know this is a little off topic but in the beta the Season says it ends 11/10/15. That seems kind of random but I wonder if this could possibly have anything to do with the release date. That would be right around Blizzcon and the Beta will of been out for around what 7 months or so at that point?
It could be nothing but I found that interesting.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On July 17 2015 07:48 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +Damage increased to 16.
Duration decreased to 10 seconds.
Seeker missile cost increased to 125.
Durable materials upgrade removed.
New Upgrade: Explosive Shrapnel Shells.
Increases damage of Seeker Missile and Auto Turret by 30%. Seems like an incredibly dull redesign of the Raven. The whole "force enemy to cast Seeker Missile --> Run away with army"-dynamic in TvT/TvZ is boring as crap, and the change to Seeker only further incentiviez this interaction. Instead, Seeker should always hit the single target (after a launch delay) and instead have much lower single-target damage (and perhaps larger radius) so it would be more about splitting than moving the entire army away. Placing an Auto-Turret is not fun in either way, and I guess this will make them more similar to Infested Terrans, but without the potential for placing ITs on top of enemy units (like Siege tanks). So essentially a more boring version of Infested Terrans. No need to talk more about PDD (aka worst designed ability in the game). @ DisruptorI think it was correct to reduce the risk/reward of the unit, but invulnerability post activation seems dumb as it removes counterplay. A general speed increase from 2.25 to 2.5 (with a 1.6 modifier when activated) would be enough along with the cost reduction.
Yeah, really agree with what you said about the Seeker Missile... just making it even more hit or miss.
What makes PDD different from dark swarm oO?
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It's so underwhelming playing Protoss in this new expansion in all honesty.
Though the adept is a fun/gimmicky early game unit, its only purpose is as an early game scout and it can't serve to be added into the late game protoss army. The liberator on the other hand is incredibly risky unit and leaves you vulnerable for to an air tech-switch from your opponent.
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Terran
Vehicle and ship armor upgrades have been combined.
Please include a poll option for this so I can vote against it.
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Mini disruptor should have the build time decreased a bit IMO.
Also the autoturret should have the highest priority target, so Terran could cast it to draw the Lurker attack away from the bio.
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Protoss is so weak, but so fun. I'm just going to keep trying as many ways to get to carriers as I can,
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On July 17 2015 16:23 ZackAttack wrote:
Protoss is so weak, but so fun. I'm just going to keep trying as many ways to get to carriers as I can,
Yes lol, I love carriers
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On July 17 2015 16:09 Salteador Neo wrote:
Also the autoturret should have the highest priority target, so Terran could cast it to draw the Lurker attack away from the bio.
This, sir, sounds like an excellent idea.
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On July 17 2015 14:43 Masada714 wrote:
I know this is a little off topic but in the beta the Season says it ends 11/10/15. That seems kind of random but I wonder if this could possibly have anything to do with the release date. That would be right around Blizzcon and the Beta will of been out for around what 7 months or so at that point?
It could be nothing but I found that interesting.
Well, nonetheless LotV is the swan song of the SC series, so BLZ ought to make it great, which will certainly take a long time.
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they just have no idea what they really want the disruptor to be...
at this point, i feel the reaver would be so much better for both players.
i want to see them talk about dark archon, with maelstrom, and i want to see lockdown for the ghost. it might be wishful thinking, but i feel like those are two important spells that need to be in the game for the races to properly function. maelstrom the mutas? marines? lings? roaches?... lockdown the immortal? colossus? void ray? BC? tank? this stuff just makes too much sense...
more and more it seems that brood war is the answer. i'm sure you could make it different while including the main important mechanics in both maelstrom and lockdown.
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On July 17 2015 09:31 The_Red_Viper wrote:I really, really wanna know why lycan made that reddit post saying we will " !@#$%^&* our pants" by the end of the year. TBH i simply don't see blizzard doing anything really meaningfull GAMEPLAYWISE at this point. Obviously i would be happy to be wrong, but in the end it will be some skins probably
Microtransactions most likely.
What makes PDD different from dark swarm oO?
I talked about this in another thread, but I listed five reasons, but the most important once is that Dark Swarm didn't scale. You placed one DS and your units were safe vs the majority of the enemy composition. The enemy could have a large army but it wouldn't be able to counter it.
This allowed a BW to split Defiler and Lurkers (typically) into multiple positions over the map and the enemy needed to "work" to break down the positions.
The only counter to PDD on the other hand is just having more stuff (critical mass/scaling problem). Raven needs something that makes it feel extremely useful in low numbers (1-3), while not particularly strong when massed.
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10 sec WTF? So it's a 100% spam during fight ability now with all strategical and tactical elements taken away. Might as well give it a normal attack that drains energy like the Oracle.
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The ability of Liberators to fire into other zones was the most cool feature of the unit. Perhaps they could have balanced around this - make a shot from a liberator into another liberator's zone be much weaker (it has travelled further, lost momentum).
The turret has been removed from the game - 50 energy for a 10 second pea shooter. Please remove and add an interesting ability to the Raven.
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Russian Federation1612 Posts
On July 17 2015 17:36 fenix404 wrote:
at this point, i feel the reaver would be so much better for both players.
i want to see them talk about dark archon, with maelstrom, and i want to see lockdown for the ghost. it might be wishful thinking, but i feel like those are two important spells that need to be in the game for the races to properly function. maelstrom the mutas? marines? lings? roaches?... lockdown the immortal? colossus? void ray? BC? tank? this stuff just makes too much sense...
more and more it seems that brood war is the answer. i'm sure you could make it different while including the main important mechanics in both maelstrom and lockdown.
Maelstrom into Forcefields, Psi Storm, Disruptor and Death Ball with high DPS? Don't think Maelstrom ever make it into SC2.
But agree with Lockdown. At least it could be tested instead of HotS Snipe.
About Reaver. I think they replaced him with Disruptor for more micro challenge. Reaver could make Protoss Death Ball even more scary with just A-click them with other units. With Disruptor you can't just a-click and you even can't cast it near your army because it has friedly fire.
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On July 17 2015 17:52 Sapphire.lux wrote:
10 sec WTF? So it's a 100% spam during fight ability now with all strategical and tactical elements taken away. Might as well give it a normal attack that drains energy like the Oracle.
Kind of agree with this.
Maybe they could be like those turrets in SC:BW Campaign. Where they burrow underground till enemy forces approach, then they surface and start shooting, but could be adjusted so that once they've surfaced, they stay up and only last 10 seconds.
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I thought the disruptor was a nicely designed unit at first and I kinda fear what they're doing to it :'(
I don't want a Protoss moving widow mine.
I still think it could have been balanced to be this high-risk, high-reward micro-based unit with good potential for reversals.
At this point I'd rather have the reaver (as little as I like "Bring back BW" arguments). The problem with the reaver is that it's hard to capture its awesomeness regarding the certain...randomness it brought. It would probably be alright for scarabs to be some kind of skill shot, a slow projectile of some kind, whose trajectory you can interrupt by placing a unit in front of it, or something.
The huge problem with the reaver is that in SC2 it would pretty much be forced to be used with a warp prism, a lot of Blizzard's core units are really fast now. I don't like forcing 2 units to be used in conjunction, it's better if they can work well together as a bonus, not a requirement.
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On July 17 2015 17:52 Sapphire.lux wrote:
10 sec WTF? So it's a 100% spam during fight ability now with all strategical and tactical elements taken away. Might as well give it a normal attack that drains energy like the Oracle.
Gonna quote myself here: "The autoturret should have the highest priority target, so Terran could cast it to draw the Lurker attack away from the bio."
An autoturret is so different from an attack, specially if the turret has decent HP. Drawing fire away from AOE attacks is not strategical?
Harrassment is also way different against static defence. With the oracle you lose the unit. With the raven you only lose the turret.
People need to think a bit about stuff before posting.
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I think the real solution for this game is to give everyone splash damage crapton of splash effects so we may be seeing a metashift from deathpushes to map control with small squads and an increase in effectveness of elitè unit.
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On July 17 2015 18:59 Salteador Neo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 17:52 Sapphire.lux wrote:
10 sec WTF? So it's a 100% spam during fight ability now with all strategical and tactical elements taken away. Might as well give it a normal attack that drains energy like the Oracle. Gonna quote myself here: "The autoturret should have the highest priority target, so Terran could cast it to draw the Lurker attack away from the bio." An autoturret is so different from an attack, specially if the turret has decent HP. Drawing fire away from AOE attacks is not strategical? Harrassment is also way different against static defence. With the oracle you lose the unit. With the raven you only lose the turret. People need to think a bit about stuff before posting.
Thinking about stuff before posting doesn't change the fact that Autoturrets are not highest priority targets right now, and are so one-dimensional in what they can accomplish that they might as well be the Oracle's disco laser.
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It's the same ol' crap over and over again. While many moan and whine and complain about new patches, David Kim and high level players are actually making the game better step by step.
None of you are making any difference to the game, idiots.
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On July 17 2015 18:59 Salteador Neo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 17:52 Sapphire.lux wrote:
10 sec WTF? So it's a 100% spam during fight ability now with all strategical and tactical elements taken away. Might as well give it a normal attack that drains energy like the Oracle. Gonna quote myself here: "The autoturret should have the highest priority target, so Terran could cast it to draw the Lurker attack away from the bio." An autoturret is so different from an attack, specially if the turret has decent HP. Drawing fire away from AOE attacks is not strategical? Harrassment is also way different against static defence. With the oracle you lose the unit. With the raven you only lose the turret. People need to think a bit about stuff before posting.
Now the only situation where you want to cast autoturrets is shortly before a fight.
Before you could strategically place them to protect bases or to protect your army from flanks but after this patch it's predetermined when you want to cast them because it's only useful shortly before a fight.
that means all decisionmaking got taking away from casting auto turrets and so all strategical and tactical elements are taken away.
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A patch that leaves me sceptical at best. When are they really going to work on Protoss ?
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On July 17 2015 17:52 Sapphire.lux wrote:
10 sec WTF? So it's a 100% spam during fight ability now with all strategical and tactical elements taken away. Might as well give it a normal attack that drains energy like the Oracle.
On July 17 2015 19:59 Charoisaur wrote:
Now the only situation where you want to cast autoturrets is shortly before a fight.
Before you could strategically place them to protect bases or to protect your army from flanks but after this patch it's predetermined when you want to cast them because it's only useful shortly before a fight.
that means all decisionmaking got taking away from casting auto turrets and so all strategical and tactical elements are taken away.
Was the auto-turret ever really used for strategic zoning anyway? It was used primarily for harassment and harassment defense. Not much of a strategic element to them. I have never seen a pro player place down auto-turrets to protect his flanks or strategically placed to protect bases.
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On July 17 2015 20:51 cheekymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 17:52 Sapphire.lux wrote:
10 sec WTF? So it's a 100% spam during fight ability now with all strategical and tactical elements taken away. Might as well give it a normal attack that drains energy like the Oracle. Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 19:59 Charoisaur wrote:
Now the only situation where you want to cast autoturrets is shortly before a fight.
Before you could strategically place them to protect bases or to protect your army from flanks but after this patch it's predetermined when you want to cast them because it's only useful shortly before a fight.
that means all decisionmaking got taking away from casting auto turrets and so all strategical and tactical elements are taken away. Was the auto-turret ever really used for strategic zoning anyway? It was used primarily for harassment and harassment defense. Not much of a strategic element to them. I have never seen a pro player place down auto-turrets to protect his flanks or strategically placed to protect bases.
Happy used it with mech often. He spammed a line of turrets in front of his army and slowly advanced that way. I feel like the Raven should just be redesigned ground up to be more mobile and especially get rid of PDD!
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China6328 Posts
On July 17 2015 20:51 cheekymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 17:52 Sapphire.lux wrote:
10 sec WTF? So it's a 100% spam during fight ability now with all strategical and tactical elements taken away. Might as well give it a normal attack that drains energy like the Oracle. Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 19:59 Charoisaur wrote:
Now the only situation where you want to cast autoturrets is shortly before a fight.
Before you could strategically place them to protect bases or to protect your army from flanks but after this patch it's predetermined when you want to cast them because it's only useful shortly before a fight.
that means all decisionmaking got taking away from casting auto turrets and so all strategical and tactical elements are taken away. Was the auto-turret ever really used for strategic zoning anyway? It was used primarily for harassment and harassment defense. Not much of a strategic element to them. I have never seen a pro player place down auto-turrets to protect his flanks or strategically placed to protect bases.
With the new 20DPS (26 with upgrade) turret it might become a viable zoning option. Granted it is just 10 seconds but remember auto turrets are very tough at 150HP 1 armor for a free unit, and it can be further enhanced by +1 range and building armor. For 50 energy it might be worth it.
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Raven turret change reminds me a lot of the Swarmhost change. 11 turrets can take down a nexus in 10 seconds now, less with the upgrade.
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On July 17 2015 21:01 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 20:51 cheekymonkey wrote:On July 17 2015 17:52 Sapphire.lux wrote:
10 sec WTF? So it's a 100% spam during fight ability now with all strategical and tactical elements taken away. Might as well give it a normal attack that drains energy like the Oracle. On July 17 2015 19:59 Charoisaur wrote:
Now the only situation where you want to cast autoturrets is shortly before a fight.
Before you could strategically place them to protect bases or to protect your army from flanks but after this patch it's predetermined when you want to cast them because it's only useful shortly before a fight.
that means all decisionmaking got taking away from casting auto turrets and so all strategical and tactical elements are taken away. Was the auto-turret ever really used for strategic zoning anyway? It was used primarily for harassment and harassment defense. Not much of a strategic element to them. I have never seen a pro player place down auto-turrets to protect his flanks or strategically placed to protect bases. Happy used it with mech often. He spammed a line of turrets in front of his army and slowly advanced that way. I feel like the Raven should just be redesigned ground up to be more mobile and especially get rid of PDD!
I wonder if PDD would be better if it had some anti-scaling mechanic but was cheaper so that it was more useful out of the bag of a single raven, yet you couldn't mass PDD block all shots during big combats.
e.g PDD shoots other PDD shots but costs only 75energy and the raven cost is reduced to 150gas or so.
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And it looks like Ghosts new snipe has unlimited range... you dont even need to have vision after you marked the target.
More gimmick that forces you to hit the ghosts, you cant just retreat or micro.
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10 sec is definitely too short, I hope they make it a bit more next patch
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If anything I think Autoturret may be too similar to Infested Terran now. I guess it wouldn't be that terrible if they had some similar spells, but I don't know.
Maybe they could make it a flamethrower so it's AOE?
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The Raven's nerf seems a bit extreme. I like the damage being increased but it needs to last for at least 30 seconds. I do like the Explosive Shrapnel upgrade.
Instead of making the Disruptor completely invulnerable for 3 seconds after using its ability just let it keep the speed bonus for 3 seconds after. This will make it easier for them to escape but still give the defender a chance to kill it or at least damage it.
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Nothing in this patch to address the awful situation Protoss are in against Lurkers, unfortunately.
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On July 18 2015 05:56 Redfish wrote:
Nothing in this patch to address the awful situation Protoss are in against Lurkers, unfortunately.
Yeah this is something I hope gets addressed at least in a community update. Disruptors don't seem to be enough.
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On July 17 2015 20:51 cheekymonkey wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 17:52 Sapphire.lux wrote:
10 sec WTF? So it's a 100% spam during fight ability now with all strategical and tactical elements taken away. Might as well give it a normal attack that drains energy like the Oracle. Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 19:59 Charoisaur wrote:
Now the only situation where you want to cast autoturrets is shortly before a fight.
Before you could strategically place them to protect bases or to protect your army from flanks but after this patch it's predetermined when you want to cast them because it's only useful shortly before a fight.
that means all decisionmaking got taking away from casting auto turrets and so all strategical and tactical elements are taken away. Was the auto-turret ever really used for strategic zoning anyway? It was used primarily for harassment and harassment defense. Not much of a strategic element to them. I have never seen a pro player place down auto-turrets to protect his flanks or strategically placed to protect bases.
AT are buildings and they can make tight walls, I've seen them used to zone out ultras in TvZ and to block chokes and ramps.
On July 17 2015 23:16 DoubleReed wrote:
If anything I think Autoturret may be too similar to Infested Terran now. I guess it wouldn't be that terrible if they had some similar spells, but I don't know.
Maybe they could make it a flamethrower so it's AOE?
IT can be casted at 9 range and aren't buildings so you can use them in clever ways to bait friendly fire, something you can't do with AT
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Lol @ 10 second auto-turret... Now you can't even harass buildings with them...
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the new liberator is a valkyrie and a tank in a single unit..
what skill is there involved in idol'ing a few liberators in front of your base/expo or in front of your army?
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liberators early game: a harass option thats like banshee + viking + tank combined built without addon/tech requirement for cheap price
later on: a cannon that costs 150 gas with 2x immortal damage and good range which doesnt need babysitting
feels really strong imo
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I was happy with the way the Disruptor played before =/ I thought it made Protoss super exciting.
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By the way, the liberator's upgrade is bugged. It has +8, while all other units (except for workers) follow the ruleset:
- upgrades with 10% of the attack damage
- minimum of +1, maximum of +5 per upgrade
The Tempest with its former +50 vs massive also only upgraded with +5. Banelings anti-building attack (80dmg) upgrades with +5. Hence the upgrade for the liberator should be +5.
Also after playing against it a few times, this is definitely a unit that feels too strong when the map is not a plain field. On maps like D&T or Bridgehead you can just lock down all movement in certain chokepoints from like 15range and that's it. It's not like anybody can ever afford to engage them with ground units, they have waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much damage and range for that.
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Russian Federation1612 Posts
On July 18 2015 07:14 TT1 wrote:
what skill is there involved in idol'ing a few liberators in front of your base/expo or in front of your army?
The same skill as using Siege Tanks i think
Also, TvZ is now Bio+Liberator+Raven vs Lurkers+something, feels very like BW 
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On July 18 2015 13:16 Jenia6109 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2015 07:14 TT1 wrote:
what skill is there involved in idol'ing a few liberators in front of your base/expo or in front of your army? The same skill as using Siege Tanks i think Also, TvZ is now Bio+Liberator+Raven vs Lurkers+something, feels very like BW
at least you have target units with tanks..
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Sweden33719 Posts
On July 17 2015 21:14 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
And it looks like Ghosts new snipe has unlimited range... you dont even need to have vision after you marked the target.
More gimmick that forces you to hit the ghosts, you cant just retreat or micro.
Should maybe make it body-blockable by units that are bigger than zerglings or something?
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Is it me or is this beta becoming worse and worse with every patch?
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On July 18 2015 16:55 Kranyum wrote:
Is it me or is this beta becoming worse and worse with every patch?
It looks terrible... this is ridiculous - Terran --Vehicle and ship armor upgrades have been combined. considering bio was alrdy looking bad in lotv
raven nerf was necesary . because how insanely op was in the late game , i cant believe some people here deny it.. like avilo it was clearly almost imposible for zerg to do anything against it
i also agree protoss look a bit weak.. but its because colosus used to be op.. too easy and cost efficient , and they could FE and block your expansion everygame.. photon cannon made it even easier to have 0 risk.. so now that they actually have to micro or defend.. they are not the easiest class anymore  how does it feel? their new units doesnt look very useful tbh.. and terran new units are awful.. nasty , drop tanks are dumb too , poor creativity with the new units of terran and toss overall doesnt make the game more fun or interesting at all.. which was suppose to be the porpuse of those , zerg doesnt look swarmy anymore.. terran new units look really boring ..
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at least you have target units with tanks.
You can target things with Liberators too.
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On July 18 2015 07:14 TT1 wrote:
the new liberator is a valkyrie and a tank in a single unit..
what skill is there involved in idol'ing a few liberators in front of your base/expo or in front of your army?
Probably same amount of skill swarm hosts needed for 2 years to be used
It's been a day and people are complaining.
People expect the moment unit comes out to figure it's counter and purpose on the first day. It took people more than a year to start widow mine dropping a protoss or use swarm hosts properly. Not to mention this is beta and things will get changed a lot more.
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It took people more than a year to start widow mine dropping a protoss
What? Terran players did this in the first tournament post release.
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Hell, they were doing mine drops on mineral lines back when it was the shredder and the old one-shot widow mine. Literally every iteration of the unit, that was the first thing people did with it.
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I really do like the Protoss' change directions: few combat nerfs + few production buffs + better survivability = more stable army with a narrower risk/reward extremities ( which would lead imo to a more stable race overall)
I'd like to see the same for the Immortal.
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I have to say that the new Ghost is so good vs Zerg late game, you can actually now kill hive tech Zerg units again. The Liberator feels way too all around as a unit, the aoe becomes ridiculously powerfull once you have enough of them and the anti ground mode butchers pretty much everything.
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Canada13389 Posts
On July 18 2015 15:11 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2015 21:14 ZergLingShepherd1 wrote:
And it looks like Ghosts new snipe has unlimited range... you dont even need to have vision after you marked the target.
More gimmick that forces you to hit the ghosts, you cant just retreat or micro. Should maybe make it body-blockable by units that are bigger than zerglings or something?
I'm of the opinion that the spell should not provide vision in any circumstance and that all channeled abilities should require vision in this game.
If vision is broken then the spell is also broken should be a consistent rule imo.
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I don't like the 10 seconds on the auto turrets.
IMO it should be 15 seconds initially and be upgradeable with durable materials to 30 seconds. This would give meaning to the turret as a zoning tool.
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This new stuff is becoming more and more gimmicky... I would've hoped taht the farther along we go, the more solid we get, not the more "random test"-y. The disruptor, liberator and ghost all have really wonky, almost random configuration, and are joining things like that silly reaper bomb and speed banshees in the realm of "wtf were they thinking" hah.
I think the ghost ability definitely needs to be changed to require at the very minimum vision, but even then it's still an ability that makes little sense. The liberator might be the most boring unit I've ever seen. The disruptor is actually a good unit, but the invincibility amount is far too great; I do like the range change though, that was a long time coming.
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On July 18 2015 20:00 iamkaokao wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2015 16:55 Kranyum wrote:
Is it me or is this beta becoming worse and worse with every patch? It looks terrible... this is ridiculous - Terran --Vehicle and ship armor upgrades have been combined. considering bio was alrdy looking bad in lotv raven nerf was necesary . because how insanely op was in the late game , i cant believe some people here deny it.. like avilo it was clearly almost imposible for zerg to do anything against it i also agree protoss look a bit weak.. but its because colosus used to be op.. too easy and cost efficient , and they could FE and block your expansion everygame.. photon cannon made it even easier to have 0 risk.. so now that they actually have to micro or defend.. they are not the easiest class anymore how does it feel? their new units doesnt look very useful tbh.. and terran new units are awful.. nasty , drop tanks are dumb too , poor creativity with the new units of terran and toss overall doesnt make the game more fun or interesting at all.. which was suppose to be the porpuse of those , zerg doesnt look swarmy anymore.. terran new units look really boring ..
You realize they're combined in HOTS right? Now only armor upgrades are combined, which is fine considering how expensive they are.
I think the raven could do with a bit of a redesign rather than just changing the stats on the spells. But Blizzard has made it clear that they intend to remove any possibility of Terran players using mass raven to force stalemates.
Liberator seems to be lacking an important element. Just have to figure out what it is. Not in its final place, but the concept seems pretty cool.
Tank drops are awesome...They're really fun. The gimmick about tanks is that they are not very strong in straight army engagements...
My beef with the unit side of SC2 is that Blizzard is not focusing on the flow of straight army engagements. It's all about harassment this, harassment that. But the flow of army battles is being ignored, and that's IMO the most important part of the micro side of SC2. That is what all the little micro should lead up to. What the whole game leads up to. And it could use a lot of love from the perspective of all 3 races.
Zerg feels more swarmy than ever before. And that's because the ling has a proper place in the mid and late game. The key to making Zerg feel even more swarmy lies in the economy. Less drones for same income = even more swarm play. Roaches and ravagers, if anything, are not "swarmy." Not zerg units. But zerglings are. With the new adrenal, even more so. Baneling free!
The problem with Protoss is that the disruptor is the only non-stargate option toss players have, besides gateway all-ins. Protoss players have no way to fight against Zerg in the late game now. Lurkers are far, far too powerful. Disruptors cannot possibly be cost efficient against lurkers if they are spread. All you have to do is have 8 or so mutas snipe obs and the Protoss can never move out. Which leaves either a struggle trying to establish tempo control in the early/mid game, or stargate. Colossus are terrible now, lol.
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On July 19 2015 02:44 ffadicted wrote:
This new stuff is becoming more and more gimmicky... I would've hoped taht the farther along we go, the more solid we get, not the more "random test"-y. The disruptor, liberator and ghost all have really wonky, almost random configuration, and are joining things like that silly reaper bomb and speed banshees in the realm of "wtf were they thinking" hah.
I think the ghost ability definitely needs to be changed to require at the very minimum vision, but even then it's still an ability that makes little sense. The liberator might be the most boring unit I've ever seen. The disruptor is actually a good unit, but the invincibility amount is far too great; I do like the range change though, that was a long time coming.
I kinda agree. What we're aiming for (except mundane things like "the best RTS we can make" or "an amazing e-sports") remains quite unclear. Of course it's beta, but it's already been quite a long one and while things got better, I feel the development has been a bit underwhelming so far. Community updates are great, but I would like to feel we're heading in a clear direction and reaching the stage of polishing/balancing rather than still throwing out random ideas.
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EPT
