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On July 08 2015 18:39 Superouman wrote:
Before : "There is not enough micro! Give us more things to micro!"
After : There are too many things to micro! Give us less things to micro!"
Sigh...
Clickable abilities are not micro. Micro is more about controlling the movement of units and abusing terrain and / or unit interactions. It's boring to watch an infinite number of differently coloured shiny things appearing on the screen.
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I think OP should add that Canata was not only a random b-teamer, he was captain of SKT1 (which was one of the best teams in BW, if not the best).
That said, the game is probably 10 patches away from the release. Too soon to say if real compositions will be too ability-driven.
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Honestly, I have to agree with him.
It's something similar to what TheDwF said about if you speed up the game too much you make it more random and remove strategy. It becomes an APM fest.
I really like certain things about LotV. But at times it does feel like a struggle just to do basic things. If my third gets harassed while I'm doing something else I have like half a second to activate my disruptor before it dies or it will do absolutely nothing. For a unit that costs 300 gas that is quite punishing.
Game needs to have a solid casual base so that it can succeed at the pro level. BW did not have much competition when it came to e-sports, but SC2 has a LOT more. FPS and MOBAs are way more beginner friendly.
So I think that making LotV even harder is not a good idea.
I think LotV with the HotS economy would be fun. Maybe even start with more workers if they want. But don't have the bases run out of minerals so fast.
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More difficult , more mechanics, more skill, more like broodwar, sounds good to me.
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As long as the game is good and you offer casual stuff like a great arcade and the archon mode ladder etc. I don't think we have to worry.
Making the game better (even if it makes the game harder) is what matters, not making it easier.
Valve made CS:GO better, even if that meant it would become harder (weapons got a real recoil, you don't hit as well while moving etc...) and it worked well, dumbing a game down and making it easier won't help sc2.
I agree that LotV may have too many abilities, but we should test that more and just focus on improving the game, without having "this is too hard" or "this is too easy" in mind. Starcraft being hard is one of it's strong points than make it unique anyway imo.
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Russian Federation1613 Posts
Why does everyone act like a pro?
I mean this game is hard to master, isn't it?
Why a commentator or a diamond player want to play like Maru or herO?
Too many buttons? Just don't use them.
You don't like to blink-micro, don't blink-micro.
You like to a-click win? Do it. But it won't make you a pro.
It's easy to learn, hard to master. Not easy to learn, easy to master.
Try hard or play for fun! (or be a commentator  )
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On July 09 2015 00:23 Jenia6109 wrote:Why does everyone act like a pro? I mean this game is hard to master, isn't it? Why a commentator or a diamond player want to play like Maru or herO? Too many buttons? Just don't use them. You don't like to blink-micro, don't blink-micro. You like to a-click win? Do it. But it won't make you a pro. It's easy to learn, hard to master. Not easy to learn, easy to master. Try hard or play for fun! (or be a commentator )
The point Canata was making that it's turning into hard to learn, hard to master, which is an unappealing concept. It's not as easy as "Too many buttons? Just don't use them." if you want to have fun and improve.
And I hope you realise he's not just some random dude but a former (BW and SC2) pro who to this date still is a pretty good player.
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Russian Federation1613 Posts
On July 09 2015 00:29 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2015 00:23 Jenia6109 wrote:Why does everyone act like a pro? I mean this game is hard to master, isn't it? Why a commentator or a diamond player want to play like Maru or herO? Too many buttons? Just don't use them. You don't like to blink-micro, don't blink-micro. You like to a-click win? Do it. But it won't make you a pro. It's easy to learn, hard to master. Not easy to learn, easy to master. Try hard or play for fun! (or be a commentator ) The point Canata was making that it's turning into hard to learn, hard to master, which is an unappealing concept. It's not as easy as "Too many buttons? Just don't use them." if you want to have fun and improve. And I hope you realise he's not just some random dude but a former (BW and SC2) pro who to this date still is a pretty good player.
I learned SC2 at first day of playing WoL beta.
Did you ever lose to computer AI?
I mean it's really easy to learn. There's even a training in the game (unlike BW).
I think Canata means that it's hard to learn to master or something like that but, anyway, to learn to master = to master, so there is no easy way.
PS Maru became a progamer at 13 years old. Was it hard for him to learn a game? I don't think so.
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Blizzard already made this mistake before. Warcraft 3 had a lower skill cap than BW because of the mechanics of the game. But I got turned off watching it because there were like 7 different attack types doing different damage percentages to like 7 different armor types. And there were a lot of buttons in that game, too.
They really need to go back to BW micro. Most units can only move and shoot. The micro comes from the differing move speeds, attack speeds, attack properties, responsiveness, etc. of the units. There are way too many active abilities now. The temporary buff abilities like the one on void rays are the worst.
The active abilities disguise how boring the design of the base units are. Units like tempests and corruptors were pretty much given active abilities because of how vanilla and boring the base unit is.
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On July 08 2015 18:53 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2015 18:39 Superouman wrote:
Before : "There is not enough micro! Give us more things to micro!"
After : There are too many things to micro! Give us less things to micro!"
Sigh... That's sadly how blizzard understood it, when the reality was: Community: "We would like this and this in the game, which would increase micro-capabilities. And we think the game could do with a little bit of this or this, so expanding players get more rewarded." Blizzard: "We heard you. Extra buttons for all units and everyone gets choked from now on!" .
Lol, couldn't be more true.
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On July 08 2015 22:37 a_flayer wrote:
I see this is a good reason to implement a method where you are required to maintain 5 bases for optimal income. Fewer active abilities, more focus on the macro aspect so it becomes necessary to keep an eye on 5 bases, which also adds to the skill level but doesn't force you into making purely tactical calls after you made some units.
You can try this......I made a mod called "Happy Harvesters" which encourages taking more bases by reducing the food taken by workers.
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On July 09 2015 00:47 Jenia6109 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2015 00:29 Elentos wrote:On July 09 2015 00:23 Jenia6109 wrote:Why does everyone act like a pro? I mean this game is hard to master, isn't it? Why a commentator or a diamond player want to play like Maru or herO? Too many buttons? Just don't use them. You don't like to blink-micro, don't blink-micro. You like to a-click win? Do it. But it won't make you a pro. It's easy to learn, hard to master. Not easy to learn, easy to master. Try hard or play for fun! (or be a commentator ) The point Canata was making that it's turning into hard to learn, hard to master, which is an unappealing concept. It's not as easy as "Too many buttons? Just don't use them." if you want to have fun and improve. And I hope you realise he's not just some random dude but a former (BW and SC2) pro who to this date still is a pretty good player. I learned SC2 at first day of playing WoL beta. Did you ever lose to computer AI? I mean it's really easy to learn. There's even a training in the game (unlike BW). I think Canata means that it's hard to learn to master or something like that but, anyway, to learn to master = to master, so there is no easy way. PS Maru became a progamer at 13 years old. Was it hard for him to learn a game? I don't think so.
But he isn't talking about WoL or HotS, he's talking about LotV and how the "entry barrier" is raised with that. It's about what's going to change with LotV making it harder for new and less skilled players aswell as veterans and skilled players which is unappealing and has the potential to drive people away from the game.
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Netherlands4540 Posts
It's the macro mechanics that speed up the game immensely. Which it why it feels much more fast-paced and if you disregard the aspect of how hard it was to control your shit properly in BW mechanically, it's actually a harder game because you make decisions much faster and there is 0 room for error.
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Bisutopia19398 Posts
The new, fast paced economy actually has me playing Starcraft again. I rather enjoy the heavy focus on macro. I have no argument here, but if you asked me, "Am I having fun with new LoTV economy?" then the answer is YES.
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On July 08 2015 23:31 GGzerG wrote:
More difficult , more mechanics, more skill, more like broodwar, sounds good to me.
So LotV is more like Broodwar? Oo
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Bisutopia19398 Posts
On July 09 2015 01:14 OtherWorld wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2015 23:31 GGzerG wrote:
More difficult , more mechanics, more skill, more like broodwar, sounds good to me. So LotV is more like Broodwar? Oo
If that's the target, then I think they are closing in on it in some areas for sure. The fast economy and mass expansions cause a lot of action at many locations on the map based on the games I've played.
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Guess I'm really in the minority as someone who has genuinely enjoyed playing Void. Hmm.
Edit: I do also agree that maybe there are too many army obliterating abilities at the moment. I love the economy changes though.
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Minority here too. I'm gettting smashed BY THE AI but having a blast playing 
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Not only was Canata a progamer, Captain of SK, and now commentator, he's also ranked Grand Master in the Korean Ladder. He knows what he's saying.
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On July 09 2015 01:45 jotmang-nojem wrote:
Not only was Canata a progamer, Captain of SK, and now commentator, he's also ranked Grand Master in the Korean Ladder. He knows what he's saying.
Intellect and knowledge can not make up for incompatible values.
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EPT
