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I think most ppl are having fun, because they made really fun micro interactions and stuff, along with making expanding more important.
The bad things are that while there's much more you need to do, all the while you can lose to one mishap, like some Oracles flying into your base.
There's a lot more unit options, but they haven't expanded on the tech path at all, which means you see one unit structure and you still have no clue what is coming, because there's so much that can come from it. The instance you make a Star Gate for example, immediately there's 3 units you can make, then you see Fleet Beacon and that allows 3 more units incl. the Mothership. Scouting is much less reliable, you see Factory+Starport that can mean Siege Tank drop, Banshee Harass, Widow Mine drop, Hellions/Hellbat, Cyclones and many other non-standard options.
Many of them require different counter measures.
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On July 09 2015 02:06 ejozl wrote:
I think most ppl are having fun, because they made really fun micro interactions and stuff, along with making expanding more important.
The bad things are that while there's much more you need to do, all the while you can lose to one mishap, like some Oracles flying into your base.
There's a lot more unit options, but they haven't expanded on the tech path at all, which means you see one unit structure and you still have no clue what is coming, because there's so much that can come from it. The instance you make a Star Gate for example, immediately there's 3 units you can make, then you see Fleet Beacon and that allows 3 more units incl. the Mothership. Scouting is much less reliable, you see Factory+Starport that can mean Siege Tank drop, Banshee Harass, Widow Mine drop, Hellions/Hellbat, Cyclones and many other non-standard options.
Many of them require different counter measures.
Yup, probably one of the reasons why the original Starcraft and Starcraft2 design was working with as few units as needed.
I assume that the amount of useless or pidgeonholed units is going to skyrocket even more. Otherwise we're gonna have huge scouting problems. But I feel like that's part of the plan for LotV. Blizzard doesnt really plan with some of the units to begin with or tries to push them in niches. (Swarm Host, Sentry, Thor, Ravager, BC, Tempest, Mothership, Collossus)
I guess it is kind of like removing them!?
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On July 08 2015 18:39 Superouman wrote:
Before : "There is not enough micro! Give us more things to micro!"
After : There are too many things to micro! Give us less things to micro!"
Sigh...
You've generalized the arguments so much to make your point, that you've misrepresented them.
The problem with WOL and HOTS are things like Force Field, Vortex, Fungal Growth, Abduct, ect... They are one and done spells. You use X ability well, and your opponent can do nothing. Forcefields and Fungal Growth and other spells literally take away opportunities to control units
For that reason, people want more control. Instead Blizzard gives us more to do and more abilities to cast. That isn't more control.
And the worst part is abilities hard countering other abilities. Hard counters are a plague on this game. Think about the interaction between Ravagers and Force Fields.
The control there is all in the Zerg players hand. The Zerg would say "if my opponent builds Sentries, I can counter them with Ravagers and make them useless." And if the Zerg doesn't build Ravagers, then the Force Fields and Disruptors could rip them apart.
So what will happen is, Protoss won't build Sentries and we won't see much of them (save the occasional player who needs one or two for Hallucinations or wants to use Guardian Shield), and unless Ravagers end up being superior to Roaches and Hydras in some way other than the ability to break Force Fields, we simply won't see many Ravagers either.
There are better ways to design a game.
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I guess if ppl enjoy watching pro games being decided by one mistake they'll enjoy lotv. the comeback potential isn't exactly huge in hots but it is non existant in lotv.
And downfall must be happy to see his exact concept being used by Canata. Hyper-development and making everything goes faster isn't actually good for the game.
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Bisutopia19300 Posts
On July 09 2015 03:01 sAsImre wrote:
I guess if ppl enjoy watching pro games being decided by one mistake they'll enjoy lotv. the comeback potential isn't exactly huge in hots but it is non existant in lotv.
And downfall must be happy to see his exact concept being used by Canata. Hyper-development and making everything goes faster isn't actually good for the game.
Your statement is such a blatant lie. There is comeback potential in LoTV. I'd say even if you are in the beta and make your statement it's just plain wrong. Just to be clear, you are saying in no game what so ever where you fall behind there is no chance of winning. I guess I've never been behind in any game of LoTV I've played. But by all means preach another myth that people will just spread around these forums.
edit: sAsImre, your words carry a heavier weight then an average poster. When people hear a caster quote stuff like "non existent comeback potential" and those same people haven't played LoTV then it causes pitch forks to rise over something that isn't proven. Please present data that actually backs up a statement such as yours.
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With their inability to balance HotS after all this time I honestly wish that they would just make fun to use units and a more casual friendly experience for LotV.
SC2 has been eclipsed as an eSport and we are losing, not gaining ground on the popular games (Dota2, LoL, HearthStone, Heroes, CS:GO, COD). Now is the time to balance the game for the casual player and let the eSports side continue its inevitable decline.
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On July 09 2015 03:32 DeadByDawn wrote:
With their inability to balance HotS after all this time I honestly wish that they would just make fun to use units and a more casual friendly experience for LotV.
SC2 has been eclipsed as an eSport and we are losing, not gaining ground on the popular games (Dota2, LoL, HearthStone, Heroes, CS:GO, COD). Now is the time to balance the game for the casual player and let the eSports side continue its inevitable decline.
They should just focus on unit basic interactions. A balanced game that is fun to play even with basic units that do not have abilities and not a frustrating/stressful game to play (1 lost engagement= loss without comeback potential) will increase the popularity of the game more. Focus on the desire of the players first, then E-sports and spectators for sc2 come naturally.
I have a beta key and didnt even touch lotv for months after about 50 games. Its basically the same as HOTS, except that its now sped up with more wonky abilites and frustrating units.
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On July 08 2015 18:39 Superouman wrote:
Before : "There is not enough micro! Give us more things to micro!"
After : There are too many things to micro! Give us less things to micro!"
Sigh...
This, people will seriously never be pleased. For years people have argued that the game is too dumbed down compared to BW so this is a hilarious bit of irony from a "pro gamer" that I have never heard of.
The only thing that makes the game feel too fast is how by the time you saturate your natural your main is already getting mined out and you need to start your third, but that is waay better then being able to just turtle on your original 3 bases for 15 minutes.
If they just reduced the starting workers to 10 instead of 12 LOTV would be damn near perfect economy wise. It would still start faster but not tooooo too fast.
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On July 09 2015 03:32 DeadByDawn wrote:
With their inability to balance HotS after all this time I honestly wish that they would just make fun to use units and a more casual friendly experience for LotV.
SC2 has been eclipsed as an eSport and we are losing, not gaining ground on the popular games (Dota2, LoL, HearthStone, Heroes, CS:GO, COD). Now is the time to balance the game for the casual player and let the eSports side continue its inevitable decline.
You know what all those games have in common? An entry-barrier that is closer to the core than to the surface. And it would be possible for RTS games too if communities and developers wouldnt start off with "well, it's gotta be insanely hard and the only way to make it popular is to give it all the gimmicks that Mobas have".
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The problem with LOTV is that Blizzard heard the community begging to make the units more microable. They then ignored the work done by lalush and jakatak and added more "micro" by simply adding more buttons to press. Units are still slow and unresponsive, but the have an ability so I guess that means they're more microable in Blizzard's eyes.
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Maybe economically it can be similar to bw but units interactions are still pretty bad:
-too much powerful harass & bullshits
-hard counters and speedlight fights
-too many spellcasters, i mean almost every unit has an abilty that must be activated or it is garbage, this maybe can make qxc happy but not me, the casual gold/plat player, as protoss i need 74 control groups to make effective all units, and im sorry im not an octopus
Where are the strategy elements in all this?
For all those reasons i dont think i will buy the game at the actual stage of development
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On July 09 2015 03:43 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2015 18:39 Superouman wrote:
Before : "There is not enough micro! Give us more things to micro!"
After : There are too many things to micro! Give us less things to micro!"
Sigh... This, people will seriously never be pleased. For years people have argued that the game is too dumbed down compared to BW so this is a hilarious bit of irony from a "pro gamer" that I have never heard of. The only thing that makes the game feel too fast is how by the time you saturate your natural your main is already getting mined out and you need to start your third, but that is waay better then being able to just turtle on your original 3 bases for 15 minutes. If they just reduced the starting workers to 10 instead of 12 LOTV would be damn near perfect economy wise. It would still start faster but not tooooo too fast.
more micro by units positioning/movement DURING a fight is what we need. NOT moar spells.
Economy is too high/fast since WoL. game-pace is way too fast and utterly boring with 50+ supply producing per minutes nonstop. 2sec 200/200 fights are way too short. sc2 has too many hardcounter units.
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I find SC2 to be very lonely, and for a very good reason. None of my friends want to play it, because it is so intimidating and ultimately unsocial. A good game is one that can both be picked up by a casual player and enjoyed, and invested into by a hardcore gamer for mastery of it. Right now, SC2 does little to attract new players who just want to have fun; instead, almost everyone I know only uses SC2 for it's Arcade features, and that certainly doesn't last very long either.
When I announced that LotV was going to be faster paced, with more abilities and a heavy emphasis on fast expanding, that quickly put a nail in the coffin for any of my friends who were showing remote interest in SC2. It simply doesn't attract players (especially when there are "easier", more community orientated games that they can pick up and enjoy without ladder anxiety).
While I personally enjoy the challenge of SC2, and many others do as well, most people don't want an antisocial steep skill curve, and both sides need to seriously be considered if SC2 is going to see any growth, or continue to decline (and you can't tell me it isn't in a decline.)
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The macro mechanic ideas (mule, chrono boost, larva) originated from this site since we were trying to come up with ways to maintain some sort of skill ceiling and APM with the introduction of MBS, so Blizz does listen to their fans. Little did we know this increased the pace of the game and everything thereafter, thereby making expanding a shitty prospect since you can max out on 2 bases in a matter of minutes. Take said 200/200 army and slam it into your opponent's army and hope you come out on top.
Anyone got any other bright ideas?
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On July 09 2015 04:19 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2015 03:43 Beelzebub1 wrote:On July 08 2015 18:39 Superouman wrote:
Before : "There is not enough micro! Give us more things to micro!"
After : There are too many things to micro! Give us less things to micro!"
Sigh... This, people will seriously never be pleased. For years people have argued that the game is too dumbed down compared to BW so this is a hilarious bit of irony from a "pro gamer" that I have never heard of. The only thing that makes the game feel too fast is how by the time you saturate your natural your main is already getting mined out and you need to start your third, but that is waay better then being able to just turtle on your original 3 bases for 15 minutes. If they just reduced the starting workers to 10 instead of 12 LOTV would be damn near perfect economy wise. It would still start faster but not tooooo too fast. more micro by units positioning/movement DURING a fight is what we need. NOT moar spells. Economy is too high/fast since WoL. game-pace is way too fast and utterly boring with 50+ supply producing per minutes nonstop. 2sec 200/200 fights are way too short. sc2 has too many hardcounter units.
Oh no I completely agree with you, more abilities does not equal more control, probably some of the abilities are going to be trimmed by the end of the beta just like they did with HOTS (I mean we can only hope) but I think we both know that to fix the things you are talking about would require design changes that the entire community DAMN well knows that David is not going to do any of that.
So instead of posting ideas or changes/criticisms of things we know aren't going to happen, let's just try to make the game as good as we can in the thresh hold of balance changes that are actually realistic to expect.
That being said, Gateway units need buffs (Zealots at least need legs to keep up and be microable in this faster paced meta) and Warpgate needs either a redesign or some type of tech movement with an actual buff to the Gateway itself so there is some type of choice other then, "rush to warpgate as fast as possible because it's better then gateways in every single scenario".
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On July 09 2015 03:50 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2015 03:32 DeadByDawn wrote:
With their inability to balance HotS after all this time I honestly wish that they would just make fun to use units and a more casual friendly experience for LotV.
SC2 has been eclipsed as an eSport and we are losing, not gaining ground on the popular games (Dota2, LoL, HearthStone, Heroes, CS:GO, COD). Now is the time to balance the game for the casual player and let the eSports side continue its inevitable decline. You know what all those games have in common? An entry-barrier that is closer to the core than to the surface. And it would be possible for RTS games too if communities and developers wouldnt start off with "well, it's gotta be insanely hard and the only way to make it popular is to give it all the gimmicks that Mobas have".
I actually don't agree with your point here, especially mobas have an insanely high entry barrier, mostly due to the barrier of knowledge. (yes EVEN lol)
The problem isn't how hard it is to be somewhat decent (and i don't talk about competetively decent), the problem is that all the other games have moments in the gameplay itself which are rewarding even if you lose.
In starcraft this isn't really the case, nobody will be happy cause he killed some enemy units.
In csgo every round is another chance to have a good round. In mobas you will almost always have the chance to do something important in teamfights. In hearthstone you will be lucky with the draw/RNG.
In sc2? Well you either lose or you win pretty much.
Almost nobody will say "hey i held that first wave, that was so enjoyable".
This is imo the problem for most people.
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Im sticking with BW.
Sc2 is simply not my cup of tea.
I agree with Canata in most parts, but Id still say its just the tip of the iceberg. The thing is, what canata is saying is not inherently a bad thing.
Oh and Id actually put it like this:
BW is easy to learn, impossible to master. (Interesting for players, less so for viewers)
SC2 is hard to learn, easy to almost master. (Interesting for viewers, less so for players)
Its how I see it.
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On July 09 2015 05:24 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2015 03:50 Big J wrote:On July 09 2015 03:32 DeadByDawn wrote:
With their inability to balance HotS after all this time I honestly wish that they would just make fun to use units and a more casual friendly experience for LotV.
SC2 has been eclipsed as an eSport and we are losing, not gaining ground on the popular games (Dota2, LoL, HearthStone, Heroes, CS:GO, COD). Now is the time to balance the game for the casual player and let the eSports side continue its inevitable decline. You know what all those games have in common? An entry-barrier that is closer to the core than to the surface. And it would be possible for RTS games too if communities and developers wouldnt start off with "well, it's gotta be insanely hard and the only way to make it popular is to give it all the gimmicks that Mobas have". I actually don't agree with your point here, especially mobas have an insanely high entry barrier, mostly due to the barrier of knowledge. (yes EVEN lol) The problem isn't how hard it is to be somewhat decent (and i don't talk about competetively decent), the problem is that all the other games have moments in the gameplay itself which are rewarding even if you lose. In starcraft this isn't really the case, nobody will be happy cause he killed some enemy units. In csgo every round is another chance to have a good round. In mobas you will almost always have the chance to do something important in teamfights. In hearthstone you will be lucky with the draw/RNG. In sc2? Well you either lose or you win pretty much. Almost nobody will say "hey i held that first wave, that was so enjoyable". This is imo the problem for most people.
I see your point, but honestly, to start playing DotA it took me like 5games. Then I had settled on a first hero I could start to play at a low level and be rewarded with being a valueable component in those "DotA 5.xx only noobs GER" games on WC3 battle.net. Of course I wasn't good and the items I bought weren't really the best and all that shit, but I was good enough to run around, focus my attention on my guy and get kills on creeps and opponents. And that's basically all there is to the game, you just have to get better at all of that. But you breach the skill floor very fast and it gets fun very fast.
In SC2 you just know when you play that you are shit. You are so shit that you don't even know where to begin to train. You are so shit that you don't know what to build against what, when to build what, how to build what or just to utilize what you built. New players - even experienced players - stray away from using anything that forces extra control groups and needs manual utilization. You skip >50% of the games content just to get your basics going like macro and getting a natural. You resort to using the most boring a-move units like colossi or roaches to get any success. And then you grind out 100games and still you are so shit that you are too embarassed to show your replays because you know everything you do is so bad that you don't even know where to begin. I think that's the problem with SC2. You realize all of that and then you start blaming the game ("balance") and the opponent's strategies ("cheap play") and get stressed and stop playing.
Edit: I guess what I'm saying is that too much of the game's difficulty stems from the UI and the optimization of mechanics and strategies, rather than from what your opponent does.
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China6330 Posts
On July 09 2015 05:33 iloveav wrote:
Im sticking with BW.
Sc2 is simply not my cup of tea.
I agree with Canata in most parts, but Id still say its just the tip of the iceberg. The thing is, what canata is saying is not inherently a bad thing.
Oh and Id actually put it like this:
BW is easy to learn, impossible to master. (Interesting for players, less so for viewers)
SC2 is hard to learn, easy to almost master. (Interesting for viewers, less so for players)
Its how I see it.
I don't really agree that SC2 is "hard to learn, easy to almost master", on the grand scheme of things SC2 is about as easy to get into as BW, slightly easier to master due to mechanic changes but still very difficult for average players.
The current LotV design philosophy is hardcore esports tail catching mode, but that ship has sailed. Ditching fun and chasing esports for the sake of esports won't get you anywhere since you need a healthy player base to support esports properly, but there isn't a good custom games solution for casual players to mess around unlike in BW and War3. The development status of LotV is a clear sign of lacking human resources to actually make big changes, as evidenced by the almost non-existent of meaningful client/engine/feature changes, the only change the client features received was a code merge for chat from Heroes of the Storm. While Heroes, the No.1 priority game for Team 1, received several massive UI redesigns in its beta phase.
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EPT
