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Its not just the tank that needs to work, its atleast the tank + one more unit.
Havnet watched the cyclone in the lotv yet, but when i tried it out in the lotv custom map it wasnt fun to play with.
Yeh, mech definitely (besides siege tank buff) also need some type of harass tool that isn't harcountered by static defense/warp-ins/creep-spread/roaches/hydras. Similarly to Vulture Mines vs Dragoons it should be possible to kill those types of units with good micro and static defense should only be something that "wins time". Not something that prevent harass play from occuring the first place.
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First post here. I like the change of attitude I'm sensing from sc2 devs so I decided to give my 2 cents.
How about swapping the hp of tanks and cyclones. To me it seems just wrong that this small thing on wheels has more durability than a lumbering siege tank on treads. Besides the tank can't run if it's caught so shouldn't break any balance.
I really like the idea of a carefully positioned ghost making a snipe that matters if it hits.
Thanks! (this is coming from very casual sc2 gamer and observer)
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I think you need different UI for line skill-shots, like "drag right mouse button to indicate direction", which might be clumsy too and doesn't fit with SC2 regardless. Otherwise they only work when they're autocast like the hellion/lurker.
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Mech is not Cyclone. Please don't do this.
Factory has 6 units and yet once you nerfed the cyclones, mech becomes bad, don't you see something wrong? Like 5 units are irrelevant and 1 unit changed mech status from good to bad? And yet you even chosed the worst ability to give back to Cyclone. The range. It needs its AA back not the range. Add another attack form to distinguish the AA and AG so you can balance the Cyclone as AA. Tanks / Hellbats should handle the AG while Cyclones handle AA.
If anything needs help is the Tank. It needs high single target damage with the removal of overkill prevention. That way as a mecher, you can micro your tanks and they can be much stronger vs high HP units like Ultralisks and others.
Did you ever consider the adding the malestorm rounds from the campaign to the tanks to improve their strength without affecting the splash? This change a long with the overkill prevention removal could make Tanks much better even vs low HP armies as it will promote more micro from both sides. Instead of just make a tank line that can eradicate any MMM or Roach Hydra army that approach the tanks mass, then both will have to micro as the mobile army needs to draw out shots from tanks while the player with tanks needs to micro them.
This is way better than the medivac upgrade to fix the tanks.
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How about swapping the hp of tanks and cyclones. To me it seems just wrong that this small thing on wheels has more durability than a lumbering siege tank on treads.
I agree, to me the Cyclone is more like the Goliath and should almost be a Reactorable unit, though probably not.
The Liberator also feels a lot higher tech than Vikings, I mean probably higher than Banshee's too. It just seems it should be a Tech Lab unit.
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On July 03 2015 03:04 pure.Wasted wrote:
Wow. I don't agree with everything they say, but this back-and-forth dialogue is utterly fantastic.
Ravager buff + more differentiation from the Roach is always good.
I'm worried about them not being differentiated enough from Hyrdalisks. I'd like to see their damage be biased towards a certain damage type, in exchange for an HP buff. Or just have their auto-attack removed.
I'm surprised that the Cyclone's anti-air capabilities haven't come up yet, I've seen a lot of discussion on that topic.
I have a bit of optimism regarding that, considering it looks like they're recognizing that it's not currently fulfilling a valuable role. I think that the next community update will acknowledge the need to focus on their AA.
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Fantastic to see such in depth communication.
That being said, i worry about the direction they are going with mech. Don't make the mistake of HOTS and the Warhound. The Cyclone should be a support/harass unit, not the core. Buff the Tank!
About the Liberator: its anti air is what gives it a cool role since it's a much better and mobile option to the Thor. The anti ground role is already filled by the Banshee and arguably the BC, so the anti ground on the Liberator should be a bonus, not a focus.
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On July 03 2015 03:51 Sapphire.lux wrote:
Fantastic to see such in depth communication.
That being said, i worry about the direction they are going with mech. Don't make the mistake of HOTS and the Warhound. The Cyclone should be a support/harass unit, not the core. Buff the Tank!
About the Liberator: its anti air is what gives it a cool role since it's a much better and mobile option to the Thor. The anti ground role is already filled by the Banshee and arguably the BC, so the anti ground on the Liberator should be a bonus, not a focus.
Yeah I think the Liberator should be solid reliable anti mass air and have some AG, but very weak. That siege thing is too redundant.
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I want to point out a fact that there aren't a lot of pro players (especially top tier Korean pros) playing intensively enough for Blizzard to collect data for analysis. With their participation, there will be more insights of forming balanced but characteristic mechanism. The community commits extensively into the Beta testing and offers a great deal of helpful and constructive advice. Still, I'm looking forward to seeing more top tier Korean pros involved in Beta testing and speaking out loud.
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I agree with some other people, the constant feedback and updates on your thought process through the beta is GREAT! Hearing the reasoning behind your choices is really helpful, please keep it up.
Regarding the overlord drops, I haven't been able to see what other people are doing as I play zerg, but I still think there is no problem with the ability (unless some invincible strategy has developed, which i doubt it has). Investment = 300-400 for ovis, 100 gas for speed, 75-100 gas to convert ovis, 5-6 larve minimum for lings 250-300 (also could have been drones)... Subject to change with roaches... The investment is like 2-3 hatcheries or tons of drones, zerg has to do a lot of damage just to justify the attempt. Also, it can be stopped, quite easy in some cases. Shit, make a couple marines and look for the 1-2 places slow overlords can actually attempt a drop in a base. protoss defense = 2 adepts and msc, terran def = 4 hellions they were going to make already.
Someone please enlighten me as to why this is op?
The early gas requirement makes the ability and investment, maybe if you increase the gas requirement and it becomes more of an investment that would balance it more? I would MUCH rather have a gas increase then a lair requirement.
If the ability comes at lair, how is it any different from the other overlord drop ability?!
The whole point of making the ability available from the start is to give zerg some other cool strategic options in the early game and it does that! It DRASTICALLY expands the options for zerg openers, at least until the other races develop answers. If lair becomes a requirement nobody will use it, I promise. It is already a very niche ability. The ability is dead on ANY 4 player or large map. Map choice alone negates it as an option... it's not over powered... My experience is that people whine constantly about something like this in the forums because they don't want to have to adapt to what is a really reasonable change in the game.
It doesn't need to change. Other races learn to deal with it... Learn to swim motherf**kers 
Seriously though, this is just a little kid crying because another kid got a new toy and he didn't, period.
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Bisutopia19400 Posts
Ghost Ability:
- I like that they are trying new stuff, the channel snipe ability is similar to nova in Heroes. I'd be happy if they took a look into other abilities from SC2 units in Heroes.
- I think they could also look into the consume ability Tosh had from the campaign where you take a units health and convert it into energy.
- The only issue with the channeled snipe is the cross over it has with the HSM ability on Ravens. Both kind of "Lock in" on a target. But I feel they are different enough still.
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If the ability comes at lair, how is it any different from the other overlord drop ability?!
Low cost- investment. Only takes 12 seconds to research.
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In order to make mech a strong style to play, buffing units isn't necessarily a preferable approach. In HoTS, there aren't Cyclone and Liberator on Terran production line. Still, mech can be a powerful tool in some maps, though bio is usually a more preferred style to play with. Adding new units isn't supposed to make mech outweigh bio, nor is it supposed to dominate the scene of all three Terran encounters. Those new members of Terran army should increase the diversity of strategy instead of playing dominant role in any games.
Also, whether mech is more about positioning or multi-tasking, a successful mech strategic system should not centralize on one or two units. This means either tank or cyclone can be a major component of a mech army, even Thor. Frequently buffing units (especially new units) may not only lead to new balance problems, but also unnecessarily switching the attention of community and pros to focus their playing on these buff units. The latter have more diminishing effect on diversity in the long rum than overly buffing a unit.
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On July 03 2015 04:09 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +
If the ability comes at lair, how is it any different from the other overlord drop ability?!
Low cost-low investment. Only takes 12 seconds to research.
It's a higher cost investment if you plan any kind of mass drop.
Time is a legitimate point to make, but ovi drops are so weak mid-late game it won't matter.
Either ability at lair will require ovi speed upgrade just to make it a viable option, and thats 100 more gas investment. 300 plus gas investment just to be able to attempt shitty drops. That's almost all of the tier 2 upgrades, its not worth it, nobody played it before for a reason.
If you make it lair I promise it becomes like the new swarm host, nobody will use it and with good reason. Mid to late game zerg drops are shit. This actually made drop viable, and it's legitimate, not overpowered.
I again I repeat my point, it's niche and not even viable on any large or four player map. Other zergs please speak up about this, the argument against the ability doesn't have any substance.
If people want to argue against early drop for zerg, then please site an actual example with a vod or rep. Put something legitimate behind it, because I have yet to hear of some REAL reason why this should be nerfed.
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It's a higher cost investment if you plan any kind of mass drop.
Hence the difference between it and the Nydus is that if you for droom-"drops" you opt for the Nydus. For "low army count"-harass you opt for overlords.
Either ability at lair will require ovi speed upgrade just to make it a viable option, and thats 100 more gas investment.
Depends if you want to get the overlord speed anyway.
Either ability at lair will require ovi speed upgrade just to make it a viable option, and thats 100 more gas investment.
Strong openings that can potentially end the game if the opponent ops for the wrong build is something you needs to avoid (whenever possible)
But I think there is a middle-of-the-road apparoch: Opt for a very cheap upgrade (hatchery tech, 25/25) with relatively fast reserach time (e.g. 60 seconds) that unlocks overlord drops.
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Cyclone splitting his attack may be for the better. However, his GtA should come fresh out the box and balanced with a nerf to its speed and/or range that can be recouped with an upgrade. Then you can tweak his GtA to gel with the midgame birds. Already got enough obligate GtGs: Tank, Hellbat and Marauder. Do you want Cyclone competing with those?
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When it comes to choosing what is fun for viewers versus fun for pro-players, we believe pro-players having it a bit more rough is more beneficial than having a less entertaining experience watching competitive StarCraft II.
you're right dayvie. Watching bunny lose to a single mothershipcore was really fun and interesting and lead to a more entertaining watching experience :D
there is nothing wrong with adding some unique features but one thing viewers hate more than anything else is games being decided by cheese and coinflips. Maps that promote those styles of play are terrible to watch AND play.
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EPT
