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Ghost snipe sounds like an improvement but still not something I really like.
Recently I was playing with the idea that EMP should slow down mechanical units too. This way you could use Ghosts in TvT when you play Bio vs Mech. On the other hand Ghosts would then become the go-to unit vs P I fear.
On the topic of overlord drops. I suggest adding an upgrade that increases overlord HP by 150 or something like that. This way overlords could be buffed to life longer in the mid to late game. Now baneling drops etc could become much more potent or you could use the upgrade defensively against viking / phoenix harass.
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Look at all those changes to protoss! Thanks again davy, savin eSports.
also: i'll probably make a video on why sc2 maps are such garbage, especially with where the game is heading, later tonight.
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On July 03 2015 04:29 Hider wrote:Hence the difference between it and the Nydus is that if you for droom-"drops" you opt for the Nydus. For "low army count"-harass you opt for overlords. Show nested quote +Either ability at lair will require ovi speed upgrade just to make it a viable option, and thats 100 more gas investment. Depends if you want to get the overlord speed anyway. Show nested quote +Either ability at lair will require ovi speed upgrade just to make it a viable option, and thats 100 more gas investment. Strong openings that can potentially end the game if the opponent ops for the wrong build is something you needs to avoid (whenever possible) But I think there is a middle-of-the-road apparoch: Opt for a very cheap upgrade (hatchery tech, 25/25) with relatively fast reserach time (e.g. 60 seconds) that unlocks overlord drops.
Overlord speed upgrade + ventral sacs combined, 100/100/60s, 25/25 overlord morph seems very reasonable to me.
You prevent baneling lift trick early game, but utility of drop morph is 95% the same. You need overlord speed anyways to do cool stuff with drops, otherwise is just suiciding ovies or tactical lifting very very early game.
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On July 03 2015 04:26 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2015 04:09 Hider wrote:
If the ability comes at lair, how is it any different from the other overlord drop ability?!
Low cost-low investment. Only takes 12 seconds to research. It's a higher cost investment if you plan any kind of mass drop. Time is a legitimate point to make, but ovi drops are so weak mid-late game it won't matter. Either ability at lair will require ovi speed upgrade just to make it a viable option, and thats 100 more gas investment. 300 plus gas investment just to be able to attempt shitty drops. That's almost all of the tier 2 upgrades, its not worth it, nobody played it before for a reason. If you make it lair I promise it becomes like the new swarm host, nobody will use it and with good reason. Mid to late game zerg drops are shit. This actually made drop viable, and it's legitimate, not overpowered. I again I repeat my point, it's niche and not even viable on any large or four player map. Other zergs please speak up about this, the argument against the ability doesn't have any substance. If people want to argue against early drop for zerg, then please site an actual example with a vod or rep. Put something legitimate behind it, because I have yet to hear of some REAL reason why this should be nerfed.
I think it is broken in particular against Protoss. I agree that it is a bit hard to judge them properly when playing against failed adept rushes every game or people trying to FFE expand in a world where those drops exists.
But it probably changes the matchup too much that there would need to be real changes to early game balance that won't happen. Protoss will probably just fall behind if they have to try and anticipate for those drops.
I could give you replays or tell you my stats with drops and in particular against protoss, but that would basically come down to my second sentence. 
And as much as I like playing with them, they are probably infinitely frustrating to play against. Just think what sort of gameplay early medivac drops or blink stalker rushes create.One player just becomes a sitting duck and somehow tries to defend stuff that randomly comes into his base ignoring all Terrain and kind of needs to be able to just have an overpowered army to eventually compensate because that's the only way he can eventually win when he never gets to have any mapcontrol.
Those mobile harass tools create good gameplay when both players have them equally and they can counter each other somewhat (hellions vs zerglings, medivacs vs mutalisks, TvT mirrors). But Protoss is pretty much blank in that section.
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On July 03 2015 03:37 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2015 03:19 DinoMight wrote:On July 03 2015 03:06 The_Templar wrote:The ghost change looks cool, but I'm not sure about it taking five (real time!) seconds. Seems too long. The rest looks great to me.  Well, it depends on how powerful it is, but I agree that 5 seconds is too long. If you're going to channel for that long might as well drop a nuke... Well, for one, Nukes are pretty weak (a lot weaker than they were in BW). Anything that isn't close to the center of the explosion will survive, including most units. Second, the Nuke is just too easy to dodge. It's always been this way. If they increased its damage significantly, we might get to see it a little more often in very specific situations, but as it stands, it is just weak. It's utterly useless with its current damage output.
Nukes should be anti structures. They need a buff against structures to make it worthy risking a 200/100 unit along with 100/100 other than doing 500 damage to structures, which especially against Protoss will only remove the shield from gateways / robo / twilight / templar... etc.
SC2 Nukes is like BW EMP on Protoss buildings...
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Excellent!! I'm really glad they are working on the chat interface for the ui. I really hope this gets polished out before release. If lucky, I hope we get an improve clan system as well.
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Are they actually actively seeking out feedback?
It's a bit late though, isn't it? We're on to discussing minor balance tweaks. Nobody cares about that, they care about design. This dialogue would have been nice before lotv went into beta.
re: tweaks
Cyclone is boring, I don't think Blizzard understands what we mean when we say we want mech play.
Liberator is uninteresting.
Ghosts aren't snipers, they're psychic/anti-psychic special ops.Terrorist/counter-terror units.
Chat improvements - why weren't these in Wings? Can't we just back up and use bnet 1.0 instead?
Map Diversity - the major problem is how coin flippy the matches are already. If you want to give us better map diversity, let us have some more reliable, affordable scouting options so we can actually respond to our opponents. PvX/TvX has been delightful over the years because of this.
I shouldn't have written anything, nobody cares ;O
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I wish they would just stop trying to make mech work. Mech is boring. Bio units being supported by factory and starport units is so much more interesting. Mech is cool to see every once in a while, but if every game was mech we would be bored to tears.
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On July 03 2015 04:46 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +When it comes to choosing what is fun for viewers versus fun for pro-players, we believe pro-players having it a bit more rough is more beneficial than having a less entertaining experience watching competitive StarCraft II. you're right dayvie. Watching bunny lose to a single mothershipcore was really fun and interesting and lead to a more entertaining watching experience :D there is nothing wrong with adding some unique features but one thing viewers hate more than anything else is games being decided by cheese and coinflips. Maps that promote those styles of play are terrible to watch AND play.
Yeah that part is dumb as shit. Three of the maps (Dash & Terminal, Bridgehead and Moonlight Madness) are plagued with huge balance problems, and it makes for a more entertaining viewer experience ? Fuck that.
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There will never be map diversity as long as forcefields are in the game. Every single map thread in TL is plagued by protoss balance whining that extra expansions are too wide for forcefields and terran/zerg balance whining that ramps and chokes are too narrow for forcefields.
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On July 03 2015 05:32 HewTheTitan wrote:
Are they actually actively seeking out feedback?
It's a bit late though, isn't it? We're on to discussing minor balance tweaks. Nobody cares about that, they care about design. This dialogue would have been nice before lotv went into beta.
re: tweaks
Cyclone is boring, I don't think Blizzard understands what we mean when we say we want mech play.
Liberator is uninteresting.
Ghosts aren't snipers, they're psychic/anti-psychic special ops.Terrorist/counter-terror units.
Chat improvements - why weren't these in Wings? Can't we just back up and use bnet 1.0 instead?
Map Diversity - the major problem is how coin flippy the matches are already. If you want to give us better map diversity, let us have some more reliable, affordable scouting options so we can actually respond to our opponents. PvX/TvX has been delightful over the years because of this.
I shouldn't have written anything, nobody cares ;O
Try saying something constructive, offering a suggestion, like that map comment.
On July 03 2015 05:37 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2015 04:46 Charoisaur wrote:When it comes to choosing what is fun for viewers versus fun for pro-players, we believe pro-players having it a bit more rough is more beneficial than having a less entertaining experience watching competitive StarCraft II. you're right dayvie. Watching bunny lose to a single mothershipcore was really fun and interesting and lead to a more entertaining watching experience :D there is nothing wrong with adding some unique features but one thing viewers hate more than anything else is games being decided by cheese and coinflips. Maps that promote those styles of play are terrible to watch AND play. Yeah that part is dumb as shit. Three of the maps (Dash & Terminal, Bridgehead and Moonlight Madness) are plagued with huge balance problems, and it makes for a more entertaining viewer experience ? Fuck that.
Agree.
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meh, dislike the direction they push the cyclone into. mech should revolve around the tank with its slow, long set-up time and crazy damage. hope they look at the tank somewhat.
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On July 03 2015 04:29 Hider wrote:Hence the difference between it and the Nydus is that if you for droom-"drops" you opt for the Nydus. For "low army count"-harass you opt for overlords Show nested quote +Either ability at lair will require ovi speed upgrade just to make it a viable option, and thats 100 more gas investment. Depends if you want to get the overlord speed anyway. Show nested quote +Either ability at lair will require ovi speed upgrade just to make it a viable option, and thats 100 more gas investment. Strong openings that can potentially end the game if the opponent ops for the wrong build is something you needs to avoid (whenever possible) But I think there is a middle-of-the-road apparoch: Opt for a very cheap upgrade (hatchery tech, 25/25) with relatively fast reserach time (e.g. 60 seconds) that unlocks overlord drops.
1) I know nydus is buffed, but from what I've seen nobody really uses it in LOTV, I'm open to being wrong about that. You could make an argument for that point, but I think historically nydus has been extremely weak. This still doesn't change the fact that zergs early game options really amount to "busting the front" of someone's base...
Shouldn't there be "other" options available? Shouldn't the other player have to worry about more than just getting their wall up? - Zergs have to worry about more...
2) You misunderstand, you CANNOT drop mid game without overlord speed. It's the same as putting your units in flying snails and walking them into turrets and vikings or blink stalkers. It's called suicide. You can't run and you can't even get the units in the base. If it gets spotted the units are almost promised to die without reaching the ground. YOU NEED OVERLORD SPEED to drop past the early game, its not something optional.
3) Every race has build order losses, period. Zvt, terran goes blue flame, I don't make roach. Im basically dead if he keeps making hellions, or expect me to be so far behind there is no chance to catch up.
Addressing your last point, show me that this is broken before you suggest it is removed. I have only seen it make the game more dynamic, which is good. So please tell me about how it's broken, no point you make even comes close to saying close to that. At worse, zerg could get a build order win... God forbid a terran or protoss has to scout something more than a 3rd hatchery.
I'm not a fan of your suggestion as I assume you mean it ("hatchery tech" = lair tech? Zerg starts on hatchery tech) because again it would eliminate the potential set of new openings for zerg.
Again please someone post a replay or argument with substance against why zerg shouldn't have this available? Didn't people complain the same way about early burrow? It just ended up providing more options.
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On July 03 2015 06:37 Espers wrote:
meh, dislike the direction they push the cyclone into. mech should revolve around the tank with its slow, long set-up time and crazy damage. hope they look at the tank somewhat.
Cyclone too tanky, tank not tanky enough
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On July 03 2015 05:18 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2015 04:26 ShambhalaWar wrote:On July 03 2015 04:09 Hider wrote:
If the ability comes at lair, how is it any different from the other overlord drop ability?!
Low cost-low investment. Only takes 12 seconds to research. It's a higher cost investment if you plan any kind of mass drop. Time is a legitimate point to make, but ovi drops are so weak mid-late game it won't matter. Either ability at lair will require ovi speed upgrade just to make it a viable option, and thats 100 more gas investment. 300 plus gas investment just to be able to attempt shitty drops. That's almost all of the tier 2 upgrades, its not worth it, nobody played it before for a reason. If you make it lair I promise it becomes like the new swarm host, nobody will use it and with good reason. Mid to late game zerg drops are shit. This actually made drop viable, and it's legitimate, not overpowered. I again I repeat my point, it's niche and not even viable on any large or four player map. Other zergs please speak up about this, the argument against the ability doesn't have any substance. If people want to argue against early drop for zerg, then please site an actual example with a vod or rep. Put something legitimate behind it, because I have yet to hear of some REAL reason why this should be nerfed. I think it is broken in particular against Protoss. I agree that it is a bit hard to judge them properly when playing against failed adept rushes every game or people trying to FFE expand in a world where those drops exists. But it probably changes the matchup too much that there would need to be real changes to early game balance that won't happen. Protoss will probably just fall behind if they have to try and anticipate for those drops. I could give you replays or tell you my stats with drops and in particular against protoss, but that would basically come down to my second sentence. And as much as I like playing with them, they are probably infinitely frustrating to play against. Just think what sort of gameplay early medivac drops or blink stalker rushes create.One player just becomes a sitting duck and somehow tries to defend stuff that randomly comes into his base ignoring all Terrain and kind of needs to be able to just have an overpowered army to eventually compensate because that's the only way he can eventually win when he never gets to have any mapcontrol. Those mobile harass tools create good gameplay when both players have them equally and they can counter each other somewhat (hellions vs zerglings, medivacs vs mutalisks, TvT mirrors). But Protoss is pretty much blank in that section.
Please post your replays.
What league are you playing in? If you are masters then it puts more credibility in your comment, but if you are gold-diamond I question if you just don't know what the answer is. Even if you are masters, you might not know the answer, but it doesn't mean the answer isn't out there. We shouldn't eliminate options based on the fact someone hasn't discovered a good answer yet. If it makes play extremely difficult, then remove it... but are you really going to tell me that overlord drops do that?
Best I heard now is a baneling elevator. Thats a massive investment in gas/tech, just leave a couple hellions at home or run drones close to a mothership core. How do you even let an ovi get into place on a land ledge to elevator? Make one stalker, and done?
I rushed ten spellings straight into a toss base and was destroyed by 2 adepts and the msc. My guess was he was opening adept anyway, I got behind and lost the game.
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Wait, the Liberator is an air unit, has 4 times the tank dps and "needs help"? AHAHAHAH, poor tank....
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Please, Blizzard, get in your head that we mean positional play revolving around a strong siege tank when we talk about mech. What we not mean is scooting around the map with a ball of factory units (e.g hellion/cyclone) in a protoss-like fashion.
Nerf the tank-medivac interaction and buff tanks straight up so they can be good at their job. I cannot believe that you never tried additional damage to shields for tanks.
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On July 03 2015 06:56 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2015 05:18 Big J wrote:On July 03 2015 04:26 ShambhalaWar wrote:On July 03 2015 04:09 Hider wrote:
If the ability comes at lair, how is it any different from the other overlord drop ability?!
Low cost-low investment. Only takes 12 seconds to research. It's a higher cost investment if you plan any kind of mass drop. Time is a legitimate point to make, but ovi drops are so weak mid-late game it won't matter. Either ability at lair will require ovi speed upgrade just to make it a viable option, and thats 100 more gas investment. 300 plus gas investment just to be able to attempt shitty drops. That's almost all of the tier 2 upgrades, its not worth it, nobody played it before for a reason. If you make it lair I promise it becomes like the new swarm host, nobody will use it and with good reason. Mid to late game zerg drops are shit. This actually made drop viable, and it's legitimate, not overpowered. I again I repeat my point, it's niche and not even viable on any large or four player map. Other zergs please speak up about this, the argument against the ability doesn't have any substance. If people want to argue against early drop for zerg, then please site an actual example with a vod or rep. Put something legitimate behind it, because I have yet to hear of some REAL reason why this should be nerfed. I think it is broken in particular against Protoss. I agree that it is a bit hard to judge them properly when playing against failed adept rushes every game or people trying to FFE expand in a world where those drops exists. But it probably changes the matchup too much that there would need to be real changes to early game balance that won't happen. Protoss will probably just fall behind if they have to try and anticipate for those drops. I could give you replays or tell you my stats with drops and in particular against protoss, but that would basically come down to my second sentence. And as much as I like playing with them, they are probably infinitely frustrating to play against. Just think what sort of gameplay early medivac drops or blink stalker rushes create.One player just becomes a sitting duck and somehow tries to defend stuff that randomly comes into his base ignoring all Terrain and kind of needs to be able to just have an overpowered army to eventually compensate because that's the only way he can eventually win when he never gets to have any mapcontrol. Those mobile harass tools create good gameplay when both players have them equally and they can counter each other somewhat (hellions vs zerglings, medivacs vs mutalisks, TvT mirrors). But Protoss is pretty much blank in that section. Please post your replays.What league are you playing in? If you are masters then it puts more credibility in your comment, but if you are gold-diamond I question if you just don't know what the answer is. Even if you are masters, you might not know the answer, but it doesn't mean the answer isn't out there. We shouldn't eliminate options based on the fact someone hasn't discovered a good answer yet. If it makes play extremely difficult, then remove it... but are you really going to tell me that overlord drops do that? Best I heard now is a baneling elevator. Thats a massive investment in gas/tech, just leave a couple hellions at home or run drones close to a mothership core. How do you even let an ovi get into place on a land ledge to elevator? Make one stalker, and done? I rushed ten spellings straight into a toss base and was destroyed by 2 adepts and the msc. My guess was he was opening adept anyway, I got behind and lost the game.
If you want to look through meaningless LotV play:
http://lotv.spawningtool.com/890/
http://lotv.spawningtool.com/891/
http://lotv.spawningtool.com/892/
The first one might be remotely interesting because ReWind is a high Masters Protoss in HotS afaik. No clue about the others. I have more, but they become even less meaningful after those. The players often just rush adepts and the counter to that is just to overwhelm them with zerglings and drop the zerglings into the Protoss base, because with drops you are suddenly allowed to overmake units and undermake workers as zerg.
The build order should more or less always be the same:
16hatch
15OL
15pool
15gas
@100gas get ling speed
@100gas get OL speed
and then just start elevatoring zerglings with 2-3OLs, while also attacking the front. Possibly include banelings. Possibly defend an attack first.
You can consider me diamond or masters or whatever my current skill level is. Not playing HotS anymore, not going to go back to it, dunno where I would place.
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I don't understand why so many people are demanding mech revolve around tanks. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy tank play. I love TvT and both sides maneuver around each other to gain a better position, but I don't see what's wrong with Bliz trying to have mech work with other units.
If tanks are pivotal vT, but vP and vZ its hardly used, I am ok with that. But they need to give mech another route against the other two races. If that is with Cyclones and Liberators, then ok cool. Currently in HotS mech has near zero viability against Protoss and Zerg.
Do we really want tanks to be the only mech route against all races?
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On July 03 2015 07:39 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:
I don't understand why so many people are demanding mech revolve around tanks. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy tank play. I love TvT and both sides maneuver around each other to gain a better position, but I don't see what's wrong with Bliz trying to have mech work with other units.
If tanks are pivotal vT, but vP and vZ its hardly used, I am ok with that. But they need to give mech another route against the other two races. If that is with Cyclones and Liberators, then ok cool. Currently in HotS mech has near zero viability against Protoss and Zerg.
Do we really want tanks to be the only mech route against all races?
Yes.
When people say "mech" as a strategy, they generally don't just mean "any unit that happens to be produced from the factory", they are referring to the specific positional style that was played in BW, which is dependent on having a powerful but immobile unit aka the tank. Also there's no point in having multiple viable compositions if they all play similarly. Bio is already the mobile, harass-based style, so it would be nice if mech gameplay had a high contrast.
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EPT
