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Community Feedback Update - July 2

Forum Index > Legacy of the Void
119 CommentsPost a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 6 Next All
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
July 02 2015 17:46 GMT
#1
Thank you for your constructive discussions this week. It’s been good seeing the more helpful threads and conversations develop over these last few days.


Chat Improvements

We’re just finishing up our most recent pass of chat improvements, and are currently planning on releasing them with the next patch. Below are the changes we have planned:


• Re-addition of Member Lists
• List of Active Chat Channels (with filtering)
• Option for Increased Chat Window Height
• Increased Contrast for Text vs Channel/Player Name
• Pin Chat-window to Stay Active (Not Yet Implemented)

We’re continuing to work on the layout of the UI to ensure that chat doesn’t interfere with client functionality so that we can eliminate the requirement for window management. We’re also working on a details post on these topics, so please look forward to that coming soon.


Ghost Ability

Thank you for your feedback in this area. We realized that we completely agree with the fact that the new armor-debuff drone ability isn’t suitable for the fantasy of what the Ghost should be doing, and it’s more of a Raven type of ability. Additionally, we’d like to give a shout-out to the really well explained “Line Damage Snipe” suggestion from our community. It was very easy to understand and the screenshots attached were very straight forward as well. We made an ability like this previously in our internal testing and learned much about skillshots in StarCraft II. We realized that we don’t want splash damage units on the barracks as we’ve found it to be much more interesting when bio units are supported by such damage-dealers from the Factory or the Starport.

However, after testing out various “snipe” related Ghost abilities such as yours, we’re currently at the following version of Snipe:


• Much higher single-target damage. Requires a 5 second channel before the shot fires, channel can be interrupted by damaging the Ghost.

The idea behind this version is that it fits the theme of the Ghost better: proper utilization of Cloak and excellent positioning where the Ghost is protected by other units will be critical to using the ability well. With that said, we’re not finalized on this ability yet, we just wanted to share the current state of our exploration into this unit to hear your thoughts.


Skillshots in StarCraft II

A topic we wanted to bring up is skillshots in StarCraft II. We’ve found that there are issues with clearly determining what’s going to happen when a skillshot is commanded while multiple casters are selected. There are two ways this plays out:

1. Closest caster to the target point casts the ability. Because direction matters with skillshots, the closest available unit isn’t always what you want, and the only way to choose a different unit is to individually select it, which feels clunky. Also, if the closest available unit isn’t on screen, it can be confusing (you see a ghost on your screen, you pressed the ability, but no targeting indicator appears).

2. All available units cast at the same time. This gives an accurate prediction of what will happen and lacks the confusion of which unit will perform the action (since all of them will). The gameplay, however, didn’t feel very strategic. With such a large spread of simultaneous attack angles, it felt more like a wide area AoE, and for the defending player the counter micro was to just retreat.

To provide some more information, we had tried skillshot abilities on the Mothership Core and Oracle since air pathing is simpler and you don’t usually make many of these units. The skillshots didn’t feel confusing, but the specific abilities we tried out did not fit into the game well. Seeing as our end goal is to make the gameplay fun and exciting, rather than to force abilitiy-types into the game, we opted to remove these skillshots. We’re open to trying this out where it might fit, but so far these abilities have not been a good fit for StarCraft II.


Overlord Individual Transport Upgrade

We definitely hear your thoughts in this area. The timing of it may be a bit too early right now, especially when the opposing player is teching up. It’ll be easier to find a higher tech place for it, such as making the upgrade have a Lair requirement. However, because it is something new, we’d like to test this a bit longer before committing to a nerf like that.
Thanks for the testing and feedback in this area. We’re seeing a lot of tier 1 Overlord drop strategies in the beta as well and will continue to monitor this upgrade.


Minimap Icons added for Destructible Rocks and Towers

Because we’re rotating through ladder maps very quickly now, we really want to polish the minimap to display all of the critical info. Currently, we have icons for important pieces except the destructible rocks and towers. We’d like to try out a change for this in the next beta patch.


Map Diversity

We wanted to provide our thoughts in this area once more due to various discussions happening regarding this topic both for and against it. We strongly believe that map diversity is important for the longevity of StarCraft II. We believe there are three main perspectives to view the concept of map diversity from:


Regular players playing on Battle.Net

We believe each season feeling fresh, with new strategies and options to explore, keeps the game feeling dynamic and more interesting.


eSports and stream viewers

We have observed a trend from the past few years of StarCraft II: when new maps play too similarly to a previous season’s maps, it is not an ideal viewing experience.

One of the highlighting components of watching professional StarCraft II matches is being exposed to new strategies. We’d love to push map diversity for this reason.


Pro Players

We know that increased map diversity is not as easy for pro players. The very concept requires them to explore, discover, and practice new strategies that appear due to the diversity of map structures.

When it comes to choosing what is fun for viewers versus fun for pro-players, we believe pro-players having it a bit more rough is more beneficial than having a less entertaining experience watching competitive StarCraft II.

Admittedly, there is a downside to trying to push for new, interesting, and different types as there is a higher potential for slight match-up imbalances. We’d really like to encourage players not to overreact to a strategy that initially looks overpowered on a certain map. Rather, we would encourage players to explore ways to overcome these strategies throughout the game. We believe that even the very best players in the world can’t immediately account for every viable strategy on a given map, and that keeping an open mindset will be very important when pushing for more map diversity. However, it should go without saying that if a map does turn out to have irreconcilable problems, we will take measures to address those concerns – even if this means removing a map from the pool mid-season – as we have done in the past.


Terran Mech

We hear your feedback in this area, and definitely agree that mech usage has greatly declined since the Cyclone nerfs and mech upgrades being split off. We are exploring ways to scale back these nerfs to get a better ratio of bio play versus mech play in the beta. Current options that we’re considering are:


• Combining mech armor upgrades, but leaving the weapon upgrades split.
• Higher damage on Cyclones accompanied by rolling the range upgrade into the unit.
• A change to lock-on functionality that causes the ability to break if the Cyclone loses vision.

Ravager Balance Suggestion

We saw a great tweak suggestion from many of you this week regarding the Ravager’s weapon range being increased to 6. We agree that Ravagers can be bumped up a bit more, and also agree that it makes sense that Ravagers generally should stay behind Roaches. We’ll be testing this out internally this week to see if it’s a good change to try in the beta. Thank you for your great discussions in this area.


Liberator

We agree with you that the Liberator in low numbers against equal cost of enemy air units isn’t very strong, and that their anti-ground positioning play is very interesting. We also agree that this unit could use some help. Our current stance on the Liberator is to leave the AA in its current form (strong versus a player who is massing air units) while strengthening it’s anti-ground role.


Source
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Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
CannonsNCarriers
Profile Joined April 2010
United States638 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-02 17:54:36
July 02 2015 17:53 GMT
#2
The problem with cyclones is that you die to anyone who goes 2-base tier-2 air (muta, banshee, oracle). All the gas and resources poured into early cyclones opportunity-costs away your AA potential against 2-base tier-2 air. Buffing cyclone ground damage and range won't change that you auto-lose to muta builds if you go 2-base cyclone.

My suggestion: keep the range/damage nerfs. Give back the early AA. Change the late game upgrade to a range upgrade.
Dun tuch my cheezbrgr
y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
July 02 2015 17:56 GMT
#3
I'm liking the constant updates
Foxxan
Profile Joined October 2004
Sweden3427 Posts
July 02 2015 18:01 GMT
#4
iam happy they are trying skillshots.
In any case, just to see how it behaves in an RTS
pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
July 02 2015 18:04 GMT
#5
Wow. I don't agree with everything they say, but this back-and-forth dialogue is utterly fantastic.

Ravager buff + more differentiation from the Roach is always good.

Hard to say how the Ghost ability will pan out without seeing some numbers. 5 second channel sounds super long, but if it does enough damage and has high enough range, maybe it could work.

I'm surprised that the Cyclone's anti-air capabilities haven't come up yet, I've seen a lot of discussion on that topic.

I wish they didn't feel the need to be so cordial and formally polite in their responses, a more casual tone would work just as well for me, this one reminds me too much that they felt pressured into doing this dialogue instead of doing it out of the goodness of their own hearts. Ah well, beggars can't be choosers.
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
July 02 2015 18:06 GMT
#6
The ghost change looks cool, but I'm not sure about it taking five (real time!) seconds. Seems too long.

The rest looks great to me.
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany16006 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-02 18:09:29
July 02 2015 18:07 GMT
#7
reading his thoughts about mech makes me think he wants mech to be revolving around cyclones.
This is not what we want, the cyclone is a very boring unit with little micro opportunities. WE WANT MECH TO REVOLVE AROUND TANKS. that is what makes mech unique, the intense positional play with tanks.
especially with the economy changes tank based mech has the potential to make for awesome games with the tanks being more spread out but stronger in low numbers.

edit: the snipe change also looks like a pure anti-ultra ability. Please no more hardcounterfocused play in sc2.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
Bareleon
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
371 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-02 18:08:16
July 02 2015 18:07 GMT
#8
Does that mean the font size in the chat channel will increase too? Either that or let us choose a font size. Font colors will be nice too :D
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
July 02 2015 18:09 GMT
#9
On July 03 2015 02:56 y0su wrote:
I'm liking the constant updates

me 2

A few things:
I kind of agree on the line-skillshots and the general idea not to implement them.
I do like the ghost suggestion, I made a similar one in 2011 or 2012 I think. Interruptable snipe sounds both interesting as well as fitting on the ghost lore. But I personally would like it to feel less spammy, like being balanced around a higher energy cost than 25. Especially if the spell is interruptable, I feel like 25energy won't really make for interesting interrupt micro, but just cause players to try and get the shot of and if it fizzles it is a bit of a "whatever" situation.
The ~5iss second CD might be too much anyways but obviously needs testing.

Drops are too strong that early, fully agree. Sadly, as much as I like to defend Protoss aggression with baneling drops and counterattack or just attack and harass early. It's just the sad balance-state of early PvZ which revolves around boring out the game with walls/canons/MsC/forcefield that would need some more drastic changes that makes this impossible.

Ravagers, I wish they would try to work with the corrosive bile more. It has not been touched at all so far and I don't think it is really in the best spot right now. At least I think more testing with varying values (for delay, damage, splash, cooldown etc) would be helpful to determine whether the ability can be improved upon. For example I think that the shot would be much more useful if the splash was a tiny bit bigger, but the outer radius splash was tiny (like tanks or grenades).



pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
July 02 2015 18:09 GMT
#10
On July 03 2015 03:07 Charoisaur wrote:
reading his thoughts about mech makes me think he wants mech to be revolving around cyclones.
This is not what we want, the cyclone is a very boring unit with little micro opportunities.


I get your hard-on for tanks, I have one too, but I've seen this comment before and it confuses the crap out of me. How in the world does the Cyclone offer "little micro opportunities"? The unit is nothing BUT micro, you have to babysit it every second of combat (except maybe in lategame engagements? I haven't seen any of those).
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
Foxxan
Profile Joined October 2004
Sweden3427 Posts
July 02 2015 18:11 GMT
#11
I want mech to revolve about positioning with harass potential througout the game.
Its not just the tank that needs to work, its atleast the tank + one more unit.
Havnet watched the cyclone in the lotv yet, but when i tried it out in the lotv custom map it wasnt fun to play with.

The interactions were pretty lame overall.
Iam quite sad to see them combine the attack upgrades tbh.

When people say Mech they do not mean All mechanical units for terran, they mean the factory units. Starport units=air units.

Its like when they try to combine the attack upgrade it makes me feel as if they dont want to really try to make mech awesome + available

pure.Wasted
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada4701 Posts
July 02 2015 18:14 GMT
#12
On July 03 2015 03:11 Foxxan wrote:
I want mech to revolve about positioning with harass potential througout the game.
Its not just the tank that needs to work, its atleast the tank + one more unit.


Couldn't agree more.

When people say Mech they do not mean All mechanical units for terran, they mean the factory units. Starport units=air units.


Disagree. I think the Banshee could make for a terrific Vulture substitute.
INna Maru-da-FanTa, Bbaby, TY Dream that I'm Flashing you
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany16006 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-02 18:21:13
July 02 2015 18:18 GMT
#13
We agree with you that the Liberator in low numbers against equal cost of enemy air units isn’t very strong, and that their anti-ground positioning play is very interesting. We also agree that this unit could use some help. Our current stance on the Liberator is to leave the AA in its current form (strong versus a player who is massing air units) while strengthening it’s anti-ground role.

pls tell me David Kim, what the hell was going on in your brain when you thought adding another 15 range siege unit in the game after the tempest disaster would be a good idea?
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
July 02 2015 18:19 GMT
#14
On July 03 2015 03:06 The_Templar wrote:
The ghost change looks cool, but I'm not sure about it taking five (real time!) seconds. Seems too long.

The rest looks great to me.


Well, it depends on how powerful it is, but I agree that 5 seconds is too long. If you're going to channel for that long might as well drop a nuke...
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
DinoMight
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States3725 Posts
July 02 2015 18:21 GMT
#15
Speaking of which I want to see more nukes.

Can we do something about Nukes? Why aren't they used?? I may be some Diamond scrub but when I play Terran I make hella nukes.
"Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man." -Wombat_NI
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
July 02 2015 18:25 GMT
#16
On July 03 2015 03:21 DinoMight wrote:
Speaking of which I want to see more nukes.

Can we do something about Nukes? Why aren't they used?? I may be some Diamond scrub but when I play Terran I make hella nukes.


I think if Ghosts became useful for what they are and not just for what they counter, then people would use nukes more often. They aren't that expensive and really taxing on the multitasking even for proplayers because of the cloak. Basically a great tool to tax the playerskill moreso than the ingame resources.

But right now if you don't build ghosts or build them very scarcely you are not going to build nukes.
Hider
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Denmark9407 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-02 18:37:21
July 02 2015 18:27 GMT
#17
• Higher damage on Cyclones accompanied by rolling the range upgrade into the unit.


NO just no! If you listen to feedback, just buff the !@#$%^&* Siege Tank while toning down Siege tank dropplay.

A topic we wanted to bring up is skillshots in StarCraft II. We’ve found that there are issues with clearly determining what’s going to happen when a skillshot is commanded while multiple casters are selected. There are two ways this plays out:

1. Closest caster to the target point casts the ability. Because direction matters with skillshots, the closest available unit isn’t always what you want, and the only way to choose a different unit is to individually select it, which feels clunky. Also, if the closest available unit isn’t on screen, it can be confusing (you see a ghost on your screen, you pressed the ability, but no targeting indicator appears).

2. All available units cast at the same time. This gives an accurate prediction of what will happen and lacks the confusion of which unit will perform the action (since all of them will). The gameplay, however, didn’t feel very strategic. With such a large spread of simultaneous attack angles, it felt more like a wide area AoE, and for the defending player the counter micro was to just retreat.


This is similarly to the conclusion I drew after digging into the area. The ghost line-shot is something that sounds cool in theory but doesn't work in practice.
That said I am still a huge fan of AOE-skillshots, either with a marker or a very slow projectile (and the model size of the projectile should be large so you easily can identify it). For instance I would love to see Forcefields removed and replaced with a skillshot and be balanced in a different way.
Do the same thing with EMP and increase radius instead (or increase ghost energy regeneration rate so missing one skillshot isn't game-ending).

Much higher single-target damage. Requires a 5 second channel before the shot fires, channel can be interrupted by damaging the Ghost.


Sounds better, but still a bit meh'ish. Perhaps because it will be a bit "dumbed down" --> You see Ghost channel, you attack it. Doesn't really feel as if its a twoway skill-thing, but rather something that the opponent will deny if he is good and won't do if he is bad.

If this change is implemented I would also suggest that they increase the model size of the Ghost to make this type of micro a bit more practical.

BTW: Where is the PDD redesign? I guess this might be replaced with the Ghost-drone thing?
[PkF] Wire
Profile Joined March 2013
France24232 Posts
July 02 2015 18:31 GMT
#18
On July 03 2015 03:18 Charoisaur wrote:
Show nested quote +
We agree with you that the Liberator in low numbers against equal cost of enemy air units isn’t very strong, and that their anti-ground positioning play is very interesting. We also agree that this unit could use some help. Our current stance on the Liberator is to leave the AA in its current form (strong versus a player who is massing air units) while strengthening it’s anti-ground role.

pls tell me David Kim, what the hell was going on in your brain when you thought adding another 15 range siege unit in the game after the tempest disaster would be a good idea?

I'm worried they want to stick with that design, which seems really awkward to me. I don't really care about balance, but the unit itself is bound to be a failure design-wise in its AG role, like the tempest is.
[PkF] Wire
Profile Joined March 2013
France24232 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-07-02 18:37:03
July 02 2015 18:33 GMT
#19
And yeah please don't try to make "mech" viable with cyclones. If a playstyle can't revolve around tanks and positioning, then don't bother to make it ; it will never be considered true mech.

Those criticism aside, I'm really happy to see they're willing to discuss and that their reasoning mostly seems logical.
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
July 02 2015 18:37 GMT
#20
On July 03 2015 03:19 DinoMight wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 03 2015 03:06 The_Templar wrote:
The ghost change looks cool, but I'm not sure about it taking five (real time!) seconds. Seems too long.

The rest looks great to me.


Well, it depends on how powerful it is, but I agree that 5 seconds is too long. If you're going to channel for that long might as well drop a nuke...


Well, for one, Nukes are pretty weak (a lot weaker than they were in BW). Anything that isn't close to the center of the explosion will survive, including most units.

Second, the Nuke is just too easy to dodge. It's always been this way.

If they increased its damage significantly, we might get to see it a little more often in very specific situations, but as it stands, it is just weak. It's utterly useless with its current damage output.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
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