EPTBut well, now he can say he is "communicating" right?
Community Feedback Update - June 26 - Page 5
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Charoisaur
Germany16008 Posts
But well, now he can say he is "communicating" right? | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 28 2015 05:15 BronzeKnee wrote: Wait, you think this a problem? Your entire late game is built around abilities (or units) that negate other units instantly, ending the game. Tempests to Broodlords. Fungal to everything. Abduct to expensive units. Blinding Cloud to everything. PDD to anything with projects. EMP and Feedback to anything with that requires energy... ect ect... I've been arguing that for years, that that kind of playstyle is horrible, and literally the game can and will often come down to a few seconds of critical micro where either the Abducts hit the Colossus, or the Feedbacks lands on the Vipers. Everything else after that is often academic, because the game was decided. And instantly is a bit of an exaggeration in all cases here. Snipe didn't one shot Ultras or Broods, just like Tempests don't one shot Broodlords. But the result is the same, the game can come down to a few seconds of micro. So why is only snipe getting changed? I think you are a bit all over the place with this comment. Snipe is really just click-click-click and the unit is actually dead if you clicked enough. Snipe alone does that and that is why there is no counterplay to snipe itself. Mentioned area affect spells like Blinding Cloud or PDD do not do that. First of, they don't actually kill anything. A random Viper flying in and casting a blinding cloud on your army is not something you have to worry about or have to counter. You need to combo them with armies, and even then you can just counter blinding cloud by moving out of the effect area. There is an immidiate counterplay to it to vastly diminish its effect. For some others like abduct your point becomes obviously more comparable to snipe, but at the end of the day if I had to make a list with the abilities with least counterplay, place one would be Snipe and Yamato. Those are abilities that are just "click: you are dead", disregarding the situation (whether it is 1 against 100 or 100 against 100; regardless of positioning; regardless of micro; they always kill you in the same way without a chance to counteract them). When you say But the result is the same, the game can come down to a few seconds of micro. that is obviously true for a lot of the mentioned abilities. But there is a vast difference in whether I can choose to not engage into a PDD and pull out of that area in those few seconds. Or my units being gone to shit the moment Snipe has gone off in those few seconds, regardless of what I did. + Show Spoiler + Note, that the Raven being a vastly overpowered unit that would need some hard nerfs to its supply efficiency to make for a fair lategame is pretty much disconnected to how the PDD works; there are just too many PDDs because Ravens are too cheap on the supply/have too much energy/PDDs cost too little energy for what a devastating effect it has on certain units; but that's not different from any situation in which you can just get a better army than your opponent, whether it is because you have a timing going that he didn't realize or a because it is because a unit is fucked up. If you have just so much more stuff that wasting units/shots/PDDs doesn't matter anymore, then it doesn't make sense talking about counterplays anyways. So why is only snipe getting changed? Because it is easy (1) and fits their design goals (2). 1) Snipe is not fundamental to anything, it's current main applicance to Snipe Templar can be replaced with EMP. 2) Bio hasn't really gotten anything yet in LotV. Giving the ghost some love with a new spell fits their vision of a higher tier bio-unit that might be useful across the board in all matchups. It's not so much that they want it to go because of bad microinteractions and would do the same with everything else with bad microinteractions, but bringing out that argument makes it even easier to justify. Especially since snipe has a history that fits exactly this argument against it. Doing the same to, say Yamato, would be quite hard to justify because Yamato was never strong enough to actually have a strategical impact. Snipe was broken and blizzard can easily just say "hey look, we gave it two expansions but the moment the ability becomes stronger it becomes unfun, and if it is weak the ghost is weak which we don't want". You can't do that with Yamato or Abduct or many other things. They never had to be nerfed hard to keep the game playable. | ||
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lord_nibbler
Germany591 Posts
David Kim wrote: Maybe my own calibration is wrong here, but I don't find adding an ability that much of a big change at all and it really brings up questions about Blizzard's development process for me.New Ghost ability Before we discuss the new ability, we’d like to point out that the beta exists so that we can test various changes, and some will be bigger changes like this. As we’ve pointed out before, we’re still in beta and nothing is final. If we end up feeling the change doesn’t work, it’s easy to just revert the change, and there was no harm done. On the other hand, by trying out bigger changes such as this one, we can learn more about a tool that the Ghost can potentially use, or even give us more ideas in terms of what else we can try next. What do you guys think, is new ability a 'big change' for you? | ||
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fenix404
United States305 Posts
I've also thought about restoring emp to full damage, with maybe returning khaydarin amulet as a kind of regen or something reworked. more importantly, though, bringing back lockdown might be nice, though it wouldn't help against ultras... at least they're talking now, so we'll see. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On June 28 2015 07:55 lord_nibbler wrote: Maybe my own calibration is wrong here, but I don't find adding an ability that much of a big change at all and it really brings up questions about Blizzard's development process for me. What do you guys think, is new ability a 'big change' for you? It depends on the ability. The new Overlord dropping mechanic is a pretty big change, because it opens up early harassment options for Zerg and undermines the loathsome Force Field defense (so it will prompt other big changes for Protoss in response, domino effect style). Ghosts taking off armor instead of HP with the click of a button is not a big change. It's not even a medium change. They've done bigger overhauls in free patches. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16998 Posts
On June 28 2015 03:53 BronzeKnee wrote: I'm gonna tell you right now, that the Siege Tank drop ability is going to change. These things are not hard to predict, Blizzard just needs time to spin their wheels for awhile. It is a sad trend. did u even read the OP completely? here is what David Kim said in the OP. "we’re exploring potential ways to tone down the Siege Tank without nerfing it too much. We’re not saying we know for certain if the current version is too strong, but we’re exploring this area internally to see what we can find. This week, we’re trying a version where the pick-up is instant (but the tank still stays in Siege Mode), and when this type of Siege Tank is dropped, the tank itself needs time to set up at that new location." so David Kim has already told you its changing. nice getting in some backhanded cheap shots by paraphrasing comments already made a couple of days ago though. | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
On June 28 2015 09:18 JimmyJRaynor wrote: did u even read the OP completely? here is what David Kim said in the OP. "we’re exploring potential ways to tone down the Siege Tank without nerfing it too much. We’re not saying we know for certain if the current version is too strong, but we’re exploring this area internally to see what we can find. This week, we’re trying a version where the pick-up is instant (but the tank still stays in Siege Mode), and when this type of Siege Tank is dropped, the tank itself needs time to set up at that new location." so David Kim has already told you its changing. nice getting in some backhanded cheap shots by paraphrasing comments already made a couple of days ago though. You are right. Noone was able to predict that picking up and dropping artillery unimpeded would ever pose a problem. /sarcasm More accurately would be to say that noone was able to predict Blizzard's capabilities becoming so unreliable they would seriously consider such an option. Your agenda-driven posts are really exasperating to read btw. | ||
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ohmylanta1003
United States128 Posts
On June 28 2015 10:49 B-royal wrote: You are right. Noone was able to predict that picking up and dropping artillery unimpeded would ever pose a problem. /sarcasm More accurately would be to say that noone was able to predict Blizzard's capabilities becoming so unreliable they would seriously consider such an option. Your agenda-driven posts are really exasperating to read btw. Put a cork in it. There's no fucking agenda here. | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
On June 27 2015 06:24 Hider wrote: I am of the opinion that game designers (or those aspiring to be) have a tendency to overanalyze certain decisions. You can always find arguments to justify certain abilities and talk about the interactions - especially if you compare it to Snipe which was very flawed on the Ghost (as he pointed out). However, when it comes to whether an ability should stay in the game or not, you should ask your self whether its actually fun to use or not. That's not something that requires months of playtesting to realize. From my experience, abilities needs a very clear and obvious effect on the gameplay in order to feel fun, and this is the problem with single-target debuffs. They do not have such an obvious effect. You are never going to feel like this WOW I just casted this sick -3 armor debuff on the Ultralisk. That was really fun!!! On the other hand, you will hear players say Sick Storms as landing Psi Storm can be very rewarding. Instead, when you force players to cast these abilities you turn their attention away from what I define as fun micro. That is moving your units around the map instead of spamming boring abilities. Seems like a good solution. Hider, I read most of your comments regarding fun abilities, and I think you simplify design by basing it around being fun. First of all, fun is a relative term, and what you would consider fun others might think is un-fun. You state it should not take a lot of time to determine whether an ability is fun, but who should consider the fun-factor of an ability? You alone? The TL community? The entire multi-player community? Its still incredibly difficult to consider whether an ability is fun or un-fun because fun is a relative term. Second, its not realistic to just design abilities only around being fun. SC2 is too complicated to use fun as the only factor when considering design decisions. The design of RTS will require some abilities that aren't so fun, but are incredibly necessary. I agree that abilities need to be fun, but its not quite as easy to find that fun-factor, or about the ability's affect on balance. On June 28 2015 05:37 Charoisaur wrote: Such a PR statement, just commenting on some units that only need minor adjustments and ignoring the real problems in the game like ultras, parasitic bomb, lurker, adepts, tempests and of course the economy. But well, now he can say he is "communicating" right? Really Charoisaur? Really? Are you always this cynical? Its comments like yours that provides no substance to the discussion. We can't realistically expect DKim to write a 20-page manifesto on the design/development of LotV, but it seems you want them to discuss everything now. Just let them do their job, and give them your feedback when you don't like their decision. Don't start whining about the "PR" statements. Also, of course their communication with us involved some PR. Communication in general will involve PR, because that is essentially public relations. You seem to consider the term 'public relations' as only 'bullshit'. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
Remember, the drone apparently can be attacked and destroyed, meaning there is counterplay against it, as well as counter-counterplay with it. And that kind of stuff is fun. It's not just a debuff spell. Maybe the spell isn't fun. I don't know. That should obviously be a factor in how it works. Just from the description we have, it may be more fun to have it have an additional effect (like a DOT or slowing effect or something), but I haven't seen it in action so I don't know. | ||
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SNSeigifried
United States1640 Posts
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