Thank you for the responses regarding last week’s update and the continued discussion on those topics. Let’s get right into the topics for this week.
Ghosts
New Ghost ability Before we discuss the new ability, we’d like to point out that the beta exists so that we can test various changes, and some will be bigger changes like this. As we’ve pointed out before, we’re still in beta and nothing is final. If we end up feeling the change doesn’t work, it’s easy to just revert the change, and there was no harm done. On the other hand, by trying out bigger changes such as this one, we can learn more about a tool that the Ghost can potentially use, or even give us more ideas in terms of what else we can try next. We saw a range of responses to this change, from those immediately dismissing the change based on the description to some analyzing the changes and providing constructive feedback. In order to help the development process and work together, the first type of stance mentioned above helps no one, and the second type of stance is what we do internally. We’d really like to give shout-outs to people who are also willing to work for the better of the game like this.
Getting into the details of where we’re at with this ability. We agree with you guys in that this is probably not the final version of the ability. This ability was created with two main factors in mind: Something fills the role of Snipe Snipe, at its core, was used to help take down larger units (before it was changed to mostly focus on eliminating High Templars). The problem was that there was little micro on both sides, since Snipe is instant burst damage. And it was moved to a spot where it’s rarely used due to how it was used. Games where Snipe would take down a few critical units instantly and the game would end.
Something that has more interaction, unlike Snipe. There are many potential interactions with the new ability. Say one of my Carriers got tagged. Now I can make a choice out of many options: I can move that Carrier out of range to not take additional damage from the Vikings, focus fire down the drone, move back out of range if too many drones were used in a specific location, or not care and deal damage through the armor debuff. Compare this with being hit with Snipe: he used Snipe enough times to kill my Broodlord or he didn’t and my Broodlord survived. There really isn’t a choice for me here.
It’s too early to make a judgment on this new ability, but that was our thoughts regarding why we wanted to try this ability out. One point we saw from the community was that the fantasy of the new ability isn’t as strong for the Ghost as Snipe was. We agree here, and this will need to factor into the final decision when we decide to keep, improve, redesign, or revert this change.
Medivac
New Medivac upgrade As with the Ghost ability, this was a bigger change we wanted to test that isn’t final.
Here are our thoughts behind this change: Splash damage options have been buffed against Bio Lurkers and Ultralisks for Zerg. While we don’t exactly know where Disruptors will end up, we’d like the unit to be in a very powerful place against Bio.
If we had to buff Bio, we thought we’d buff in an area that’s the most exciting. So in this specific case, the ability wasn’t added because Marine drops were underpowered, but we wanted to try this buff to see if a strategy that we want to see a lot of in Void could also be more interesting after the upgrade has been purchased. For example, even in some cases where lots of Mutalisks are flying around, it may be possible to do a forced drop. We’ve also tried straight up buffs in main engagements, but we felt this route helped distinguish bio play more so from Mech play. Mech can be more about the direct engagement strength whereas Bio, while it may be weaker in Void due to changes to other races, we wonder if they can hold up better due to stronger harassment play.
We obviously don’t know the full effect of the changes, and also it’s not possible to make a call on whether this was a good add or not this early, but we just wanted to clear up our thoughts behind this change.
Disruptor
Disruptor Update We’ve been testing various changes here and we want a version of the Disruptor where each hit isn’t that big, but it’s possible to save and reuse each Disruptor so there’s a lot more micro and decision making needed on both sides. This week we’re trying a version of the Disruptor that has much less impact per hit, but stays in its “phased out” mode for a few seconds after the hit has gone off. One concern here is that the Disruptor could feel too difficult to kill, and this is why we’d like to internally explore more in detail before deciding on the list of changes for the beta.
Passive abilities vs. Active abilities
assive abilities vs. Active abilities One thing we’d like to clear up here is that we iterate and polish our design philosophies and processes as well. What we said ~10 years ago regarding this topic is a good example of us having changed our stance in an area. We have design philosophies we follow and try our best to improve over time. Currently, we believe both active abilities and passive abilities can offer interesting additions to the game. But with that said, if there are specific, solid suggestions on a new unit improvement in this area, we agree that could be a potential win. But we’d like to consider this on a case by case basis and just saying “get rid of all actives on new units” isn’t very helpful. It’s also incorrect to say that active abilities are always more difficult to use than passive abilities. For example, outside of high-level play, the passive Voidray ability was very difficult to use for lower-level players because it’s very difficult to have the powered up state stay on and the exact right times. In comparison, pressing one button to activate all your Voidrays for a power boost right when you need it is much easier for lower-level players to use.
We’d like to also point out there are different degrees of active abilities. The Liberator’s active isn’t something that must be done at that split second moment and also doesn’t need to be done with completely accurate and precise clicks. Compare this to the Disruptor’s active ability where you have to manually micro each one to each different location after using the ability. In this specific situation, the reason Disruptors require such high micro is because we agree with community suggestions that Protoss can use more skill differentiating units especially during engagements, whereas Terran has a lot of it so we went with easier to use units on that side.
Medivacs picking up siege mode Siege Tanks
Thanks to your feedback, we’re exploring potential ways to tone down the Siege Tank without nerfing it too much. We’re not saying we know for certain if the current version is too strong, but we’re exploring this area internally to see what we can find. This week, we’re trying a version where the pick-up is instant (but the tank still stays in Siege Mode), and when this type of Siege Tank is dropped, the tank itself needs time to set up at that new location. This way, there’s a bit of a delay before firing each shot, and the Medivac is still free to move around since both the pick-up and drop on this side is instant. We don’t know what the optimal number of seconds will be for the tank to set up, but it’s something we’re playing around with.
Other thoughts
Some additional thoughts on other threads and topics this week: An Archon Mode suggestion thread discussed displaying more clearly which player within a team just made a cool move. Our previous thought was that in Archon Mode, it’s about the team doing cool stuff as one person, and less about each person doing cool stuff individually. But after reading the thread and comments within it, we’re wondering if the other route can be cooler. We don’t have immediate solutions here, but we’ll be discussing and exploring options our end regarding this topic. We’ve seen a few different threads on strategies regarding the Overlord drop change. It’s always great to see this kind of discussion as it helps in our balance discussions. We also wanted to give BasetradeTV a shout out here, because the uptime of their stream on various events is really impressive to us.
We also wanted to give BasetradeTV a shout out here, because the uptime of their stream on various events is really impressive to us.
Shoutout to TakeTV for 76 days IN A ROW streaming HotS and LotV! These guys are a real treat for the german community. Also: Its HOMESTORY CUP NEXT WEEK EVERYBODY!
It’s too early to make a judgment on this new ability,
I am of the opinion that game designers (or those aspiring to be) have a tendency to overanalyze certain decisions. You can always find arguments to justify certain abilities and talk about the interactions - especially if you compare it to Snipe which was very flawed on the Ghost (as he pointed out).
However, when it comes to whether an ability should stay in the game or not, you should ask your self whether its actually fun to use or not. That's not something that requires months of playtesting to realize. From my experience, abilities needs a very clear and obvious effect on the gameplay in order to feel fun, and this is the problem with single-target debuffs. They do not have such an obvious effect.
You are never going to feel like this WOW I just casted this sick -3 armor debuff on the Ultralisk. That was really fun!!!
On the other hand, you will hear players say Sick Storms as landing Psi Storm can be very rewarding.
Instead, when you force players to cast these abilities you turn their attention away from what I define as fun micro. That is moving your units around the map instead of spamming boring abilities.
This way, there’s a bit of a delay before firing each shot, and the Medivac is still free to move around since both the pick-up and drop on this side is instant. We don’t know what the optimal number of seconds will be for the tank to set up, but it’s something we’re playing around with.
He gave some really good reasons to the changes. And i agree with what he said. But still nothing on the Ravager... i mean they see that its not used at all except for some ZvZ and nothing.
I also hope they make the Disruptor work well cuz it looks that they might remove it if things dont keep working. Also no word on 4gate adept all in still killing bio everytime.
You are never going to feel like this WOW I just casted this sick -3 armor debuff on the Ultralisk. That was really fun!!!
I would think that if the debuff animation is obvious enough to notice it was done, and the debuff is severe enough to have a large effect, It could be very noticeable to see a large unit go down much faster than it would have otherwise. I could see that as satisfying. It could feel tactical that you sabotaged this unit in a fight and that's what swayed the battle in your favor.
We also wanted to give BasetradeTV a shout out here, because the uptime of their stream on various events is really impressive to us.
Shoutout to TakeTV for 76 days IN A ROW streaming HotS and LotV! These guys are a real treat for the german community. Also: Its HOMESTORY CUP NEXT WEEK EVERYBODY!
On topic: really looking forward to the next patch. Disruptor just ....well...kill me everytime.
On June 27 2015 06:29 Spect8rCraft wrote: The siege tank thing sounds like dropping a siege tank with the animation automatically played when it drops.
It sounds more restrictive than if the medivac dropped an unsieged tank that could be sieged at a moment's notice.
We also wanted to give BasetradeTV a shout out here, because the uptime of their stream on various events is really impressive to us.
Shoutout to TakeTV for 76 days IN A ROW streaming HotS and LotV! These guys are a real treat for the german community. Also: Its HOMESTORY CUP NEXT WEEK EVERYBODY!
On topic: really looking forward to the next patch. Disruptor just ....well...kill me everytime.
At this point, after thinking it out, I am willing to give the Ghost DRONE ability a chance. If you really wanna be active with bio and drop even more with the direction of the game in LotV, there is just no time to use Snipe separately.
But the Drone can be placed on a certain spot on the map and afterwards it will target the units itself - while your full attention goes to the army, picking off tagged units, splitting, kiting etc.
I just feel it's a bit underwhelming. Maybe the numbers are good ultimately, but precisely because it's beta i'd like to see Blizzard buff the Drone somehow so it will actually be used, tested and people will be excited about it. Nerf it later, if needs be, but without testing you won't even have a chance to nerf it, because rarely anyone will use it.
My suggestion is: 1) either make the drone target 2 units for -2 armor and make a CHEAP upgrade so they can target 3 units and have more HP (the drone itself) 2) or keep the -3 armor and 1 unit tag but make a CHEAP upgrade where the drone can target 2 units for -3 armor
I miss upgrades similar to combat shields and marauder slow, not everything has to cost 200/200. What do you guys think?
You are never going to feel like this WOW I just casted this sick -3 armor debuff on the Ultralisk. That was really fun!!!
I would think that if the debuff animation is obvious enough to notice it was done, and the debuff is severe enough to have a large effect, It could be very noticeable to see a large unit go down much faster than it would have otherwise. I could see that as satisfying. It could feel tactical that you sabotaged this unit in a fight and that's what swayed the battle in your favor.
Based on some experience working with a lot of different types of abililties in the editor in order to understand the variables that makes abilities fun/not fun, I found that abilities typically feel less satisfactory if the advantage only becomes apparenty over a longer time period + takes skill to use optimally.
This is why the most fun abilities typically can deal significant damage and are "skillshots". On the other hand, "guranteed" abilities that makes your army +5% better are very boring.
E.g. do you feel satisfaction fighting a 0/0 army with your 1/0 army (assuming same composition)? Your units perform better, but it doesn't really make it more fun.
Or do you feel satisfaction placing PDDs?
On the other hand, Psy Storm = Bam units dead, and it came as a result of me casting the ability very well.
Based on feedback from the community, it would surprise me if my theory is wrong here. I have yet to see this ability getting any positive feedback at all.
And that was my original point: It doesn't take a lot of time to playtest this ability. Either its fun to use or its not.
That's not to say that debuff-abilities cannot work, but they need to be much more extreme in their effects and should be AOE-based. Blinding Cloud for instance is an example of a succesful debuff-ability as the effect becomes immediate obvious + it takes skill to use it optimally. You can see when a player casts a bad or a good Blinding Cloud but can you really do that with this ability?
I'm getting the feeling that the LoTV Design Philosophy was developed after watching the Simpsons, specifically S5E22:
Skinner: Well, I was wrong. The lizards are a godsend. Lisa: But isn't that a bit short-sighted? What happens when we're overrun by lizards? Skinner: No problem. We simply unleash wave after wave of Chinese needle snakes. They'll wipe out the lizards. Lisa: But aren't the snakes even worse? Skinner: Yes, but we're prepared for that. We've lined up a fabulous type of gorilla that thrives on snake meat. Lisa: But then we're stuck with gorillas! Skinner: No, that's the beautiful part. When wintertime rolls around, the gorillas simply freeze to death.
On June 27 2015 06:49 _indigo_ wrote: At this point, after thinking it out, I am willing to give the Ghost DRONE ability a chance. If you really wanna be active with bio and drop even more with the direction of the game in LotV, there is just no time to use Snipe separately.
But the Drone can be placed on a certain spot on the map and afterwards it will target the units itself - while your full attention goes to the army, picking off tagged units, splitting, kiting etc.
I just feel it's a bit underwhelming. Maybe the numbers are good ultimately, but precisely because it's beta i'd like to see Blizzard buff the Drone somehow so it will actually be used, tested and people will be excited about it. Nerf it later, if needs be, but without testing you won't even have a chance to nerf it, because rarely anyone will use it.
My suggestion is: 1) either make the drone target 2 units for -2 armor and make a CHEAP upgrade so they can target 3 units and have more HP (the drone itself) 2) or keep the -3 armor and 1 unit tag but make a CHEAP upgrade where the drone can target 2 units for -3 armor
I miss upgrades similar to combat shields and marauder slow, not everything has to cost 200/200. What do you guys think?
I think if it's too weak they could make it an aura with unlimited selection, but mb increased energy cost? As for the upgrades, I for sure would like more upgrades in general in the game, but for the Ghost they could just revert the Energy upgrade, so it's not already on the Ghost from start. Or one that increases sight range or something.
Not everything should be about "fun" "fun" "fun" - i feel this fun thing is getting forced on the game, while the actual players want to see how their plan came together and all units together worked towards a win.
And in this case, you have your bio and you carefully place Drones and they work together towards the win in the battle. I couldn't care less if this ability is "fun", because there are A LOT of fun abilities in the game and a lot of opportunities for dropping and playing wild.
What's really important is for the Drone to properly signal what is happening - both to the player and to the viewer. So you can really see which unit is affected - and let the "fun" factor be in this visual aspect.
Except the Ghost ability, that's still just an anti Ultra band aid no matter how he tries to spin it. If you have Ghosts against Carriers you are going to carpet EMP like crazy not "snipe" some of the armor for individual Carriers. The only other unit with lots of armor is the BC but there again, if you have Ghosts you are going to want to EMP to deny Yamato.
If the Ultra is such a big problem for Bio, maybe a more elegant solution would be to have Bio transition/add some Mech or Air support that is capable of killing Ultras; like Tanks were in BW. So maybe buff Tanks against massive (maybe an upgrade?) :D You give a new dimension to Bio lategame vs Zerg.
On June 27 2015 07:00 Sapphire.lux wrote: I see sense in a lot of what he's saying.
Except the Ghost ability, that's still just an anti Ultra band aid no matter how he tries to spin it. If you have Ghosts against Carriers you are going to carpet EMP like crazy not "snipe" some of the armor for individual Carriers. The only other unit with lots of armor is the BC but there again, if you have Ghosts you are going to want to EMP to deny Yamato.
If the Ultra is such a big problem for Bio, maybe a more elegant solution would be to have Bio transition/add some Mech or Air support that is capable of killing Ultras; like Tanks were in BW. So maybe buff Tanks against massive (maybe an upgrade?) :D You give a new dimension to Bio lategame vs Zerg.
This is exactly why I think the Drone should become something that can be used in the lategame (when everything has lots of armor) vs everything basically. For this to work, Drones would need to affect more targets at once.
Making an ability specifically vs Ultras is not a good design choice BUT why not try to see if this can be used for other purposes, before it gets scrapped.
Not everything should be about "fun" "fun" "fun" -
That couldn't be more wrong. The reason most gamers play games is to have fun! This is how you sell games and each ability/unit should pass the "fun"-test. If it cannot pass, you need to go back to the drawing table.
That's not to say that high skill cap/action/micro/multitasking are mutually exclusive with "fun". In fact they are often correlated. But in some situations, it's easy to be a developer on only focus on high mechanical skillcap and forget why you actually are making the game in the first place.
I couldn't care less if this ability is "fun", because there are A LOT of fun abilities in the game and a lot of opportunities for dropping and playing wild.
Then why have the ability at all in the game if it isn't fun to use? Remember this ability is only in the game as a consequence of the Ultralisk getting overbuffed. Why not just nerf Ultralisk armor instead? Also why settle with mediocricity. If you can have multiple fun abilities and units in the game, why be satifised with just a couple?
Not everything should be about "fun" "fun" "fun" -
The reason most gamers play games is to have fun!
That's not true. Maybe it is for simpler games but for a RTS like this where player has to commit to even have a slight chance on ladder, a series of fun abilities is not a motivator. You play to slay others, to defeat real human opponents, to achieve something, gain points, get win numbers up, unlock portraits.. not because you wanna use a fun ability every now and then.
And besides - game has a huge amount of fun things, so not everything should go through a sadistic rule that enforces it to be "super fun".
That's not true. Maybe it is for simpler games but for a RTS like this where player has to commit to even have a slight chance on ladder, a series of fun abilities is not a motivator. You play to slay others, to defeat real human opponents, to achieve something, gain points, get win numbers up, unlock portraits.. not because you wanna use a fun ability every now and then.
The end-goal here is still fun. You get better at the game, you own someone = FUN. If you thought beating opponents and getting better at the game was super boring, then you would probably do your homework instead of playing the game.
However, you know what also makes the game more fun? Well-designed micro interactions + strategic diversity.
The point here is that the ultimate end-goal always is fun. the desire to promote more action and increase the skillcap = Sub-goals.
The problem is that David Kim has forgot the ultimate end-goal and only focusses on the subgoals, which is why LOTV right now is in a very bad state.
A bit off topic but i'd like to see some work done with the Widow Mine to increase its synergy with Mech. The high supply cost makes it useless for map control at this point, so it's really just support for Bio.
1. David Kim is being awesome, I love reading these.
2. People who have never made a game vastly misunderstand how hard it is to judge how mechanics will work until it is developed. Most ideas fail. This couldn't be more evident than the posts recently about "Why did blizzard not keep promised feature X." Answer: it was better in theory.
3. Ghost drone still sucks. The main issue is that the solution is extremely dull even if it works flawlessly.
If according to DK snipe is such a one-dimensional and terrible ability why did it exist for all these years? I'm wondering if Blizzard has any excuse.
On June 27 2015 08:19 Grumbels wrote: If according to DK snipe is such a one-dimensional and terrible ability why did it exist for all these years? I'm wondering if Blizzard has any excuse.
Why would this be of any relevance now? Lets just focus on LotV future, there's plenty to talk about..
On June 27 2015 08:19 Grumbels wrote: If according to DK snipe is such a one-dimensional and terrible ability why did it exist for all these years? I'm wondering if Blizzard has any excuse.
if this has been going on all these years and its so bad why are you even still playing the game all these years? i'm wondering if you have an excuse?
there are 3 reasons why Jaedong and Stardust are playing an absolute fucking all time classic in Toronto right now.
On June 27 2015 08:19 Grumbels wrote: If according to DK snipe is such a one-dimensional and terrible ability why did it exist for all these years? I'm wondering if Blizzard has any excuse.
Why would this be of any relevance now? Lets just focus on LotV future, there's plenty to talk about..
I'd rather ponder about blizzard's past failures than care about the future of lotv which only holds theoretical interest for me anyway.
On June 27 2015 08:19 Grumbels wrote: If according to DK snipe is such a one-dimensional and terrible ability why did it exist for all these years? I'm wondering if Blizzard has any excuse.
if this has been going on all these years and its so bad why are you even still playing the game all these years? i'm wondering if you have an excuse?
there are 3 reasons why Jaedong and Stardust are playing an absolute fucking all time classic in Toronto right now.
#2 reason is Jaedong #3 reason is Stardust
#1 reason is David Kim.
All I see is Force Fields everywhere, how is that an all time classic?
why not just make snipe a skillshot ala caitlyn q from lol? lots of dodging/aiming/jukes, even more so when there are multiple ghosts, so there's interaction and counterplay, and it can be used to snipe out important enemies
On June 27 2015 09:25 aRyuujin wrote: why not just make snipe a skillshot ala caitlyn q from lol? lots of dodging/aiming/jukes, even more so when there are multiple ghosts, so there's interaction and counterplay, and it can be used to snipe out important enemies
Not really practical for a unit that can be massed. I believe line-skillcap fits better into units you only have very few off since it makes it possible for the opponent to actually dodge them.
I am just curious, if you see this David Kim, but have you considered putting in a unit tester for LotV. It would be much easier for the community to test each unit for themselves outside of unranked. Just a thought.
On June 27 2015 09:52 revalence123 wrote: I am just curious, if you see this David Kim, but have you considered putting in a unit tester for LotV. It would be much easier for the community to test each unit for themselves outside of unranked. Just a thought.
if Blizzard is done with economy model adjustments then i'd like a unit tester for LotV as well. Blizz could even create suggested specific situations for people to play around with.
If Blizzard wanted to have a more interesting ability than the old burst-damage snipe, why not just apply the armor debuff effect (in a non-stacking manner) in lieu of the burst damage via snipe? Adjust energy costs, find a good sweet spot for duration and range... because from the sound of things this drone thing sounds needlessly complex.
On June 27 2015 06:11 Lorning wrote: Medivacs picking up siege mode Siege Tanks
Thanks to your feedback, we’re exploring potential ways to tone down the Siege Tank without nerfing it too much. We’re not saying we know for certain if the current version is too strong, but we’re exploring this area internally to see what we can find. This week, we’re trying a version where the pick-up is instant (but the tank still stays in Siege Mode), and when this type of Siege Tank is dropped, the tank itself needs time to set up at that new location. This way, there’s a bit of a delay before firing each shot, and the Medivac is still free to move around since both the pick-up and drop on this side is instant. We don’t know what the optimal number of seconds will be for the tank to set up, but it’s something we’re playing around with.
i really love this ability with Siege Tanks and Medivacs so i hope this ability remains in the game.
DELAY SUGGESTION: how about a delay equal to the cool down time of a siege tank shot? so the instant the Siege Tank is dropped it runs through its shot cool down as though it had just fired. this keeps the delay timing something simple that players are already familiar with.
On June 27 2015 07:40 nottapro wrote: 1. David Kim is being awesome, I love reading these.
2. People who have never made a game vastly misunderstand how hard it is to judge how mechanics will work until it is developed. Most ideas fail. This couldn't be more evident than the posts recently about "Why did blizzard not keep promised feature X." Answer: it was better in theory.
3. Ghost drone still sucks. The main issue is that the solution is extremely dull even if it works flawlessly.
Brilliant post. Making games is damn hard (I had been doing it for 10 yrs before moving to the US). And Ghost drone is still ver uninspired.
Gotta say, I hope the message got through to everyone. Remain positive, be constructive, give them a chance and if an idea flops they are willing to change. Very good news all around from blizzard.
On June 27 2015 12:23 BisuDagger wrote: Gotta say, I hope the message got through to everyone. Remain positive, be constructive, give them a chance and if an idea flops they are willing to change. Very good news all around from blizzard.
Just the fact that this is posted shows how far blizzard have come in terms of dealing with the game. Honestly this is what people have been asking for, for a long time, more radical and experimental changes as well as community feedback and showing how interaction affects them (to convince us we are being listened to XD).
As for the changes themselves, the ghost changes should be interesting as we see how it progresses. an anti armour ability sounds pretty cool to me, but making it single target and killable... maybe this should be a little more powerful at least maybe something like a cloud effect?? Especially since the rest of the changes seem to be making certain aspects of the game imba in their own special way and ghost dont really having anything else ridiculously powerful atm.
Remove pick up siege tank already, that stupid idea will limit what types of maps can be made and it will make you have to nerf other things and adjust the game just because u think it looks "cool" and gives more "options".
Maybe we dont want more options maybe we just want balance and less friggin volatility in this game.
On June 27 2015 14:30 raXNT wrote: Remove pick up siege tank already, that stupid idea will limit what types of maps can be made and it will make you have to nerf other things and adjust the game just because u think it looks "cool" and gives more "options".
Maybe we dont want more options maybe we just want balance and less friggin volatility in this game.
One thing you can't take away from Blizzard is their uncanny ability to balance their games. SC2, except for the BLinfestor fiasco, had no major balance fuck-up. Giving more options to players can never really be bad. As for the volatility, I agree with you but it's more of a deep design issue (not related to current tank drops).
On June 27 2015 14:30 raXNT wrote: Remove pick up siege tank already, that stupid idea will limit what types of maps can be made and it will make you have to nerf other things and adjust the game just because u think it looks "cool" and gives more "options".
Maybe we dont want more options maybe we just want balance and less friggin volatility in this game.
Complete lack of volatility means a completely stale and boring meta where players can't make choices or use innovative builds, BL/infestor era has almost zero volatility, every TvZ / ZvP played out almost the exact same way from the zerg player's perspective because there was one winning solution to everything. RTS' are magical because of the multiple ways to solve a game and a situation, the only time when a design decision is counter intuitive to creating more options to solve a situation is if it removes the ability of the other player to play around it. I don't see any indication that tank pick ups will be the only winning solution to everything in any match up or that it's impossible to play around, it's literally identical to thor pick ups in present TvZ and I don't see anybody complaining about that.
On June 27 2015 14:30 raXNT wrote: Remove pick up siege tank already, that stupid idea will limit what types of maps can be made and it will make you have to nerf other things and adjust the game just because u think it looks "cool" and gives more "options".
Maybe we dont want more options maybe we just want balance and less friggin volatility in this game.
Complete lack of volatility means a completely stale and boring meta where players can't make choices or use innovative builds, BL/infestor era has almost zero volatility, every TvZ / ZvP played out almost the exact same way from the zerg player's perspective because there was one winning solution to everything. RTS' are magical because of the multiple ways to solve a game and a situation, the only time when a design decision is counter intuitive to creating more options to solve a situation is if it removes the ability of the other player to play around it. I don't see any indication that tank pick ups will be the only winning solution to everything in any match up or that it's impossible to play around, it's literally identical to thor pick ups in present TvZ and I don't see anybody complaining about that.
I said less Volatility not ZERO.
Most of the stuff you mention is completely unrelated to anything I wrote.
As far as comparing Thors to Siege Tanks, Thors don't have the same range a siege tank does.
When you put this ability in hands of a pro player it's going to affect the game so much it will force Blizzard to either remove it or nerf something else to accomidate the new droppable tank in siege mode.
I belive Blizzard implented this because of the Ravager and Disruptor. It's impossible for siege tanks to escape Ravagers and Disruptors without it.
Disrupter/Ravager and Siege mode drops is the most stupid thing they have ever come up with since WOL BETA.
On June 27 2015 14:30 raXNT wrote: Remove pick up siege tank already, that stupid idea will limit what types of maps can be made and it will make you have to nerf other things and adjust the game just because u think it looks "cool" and gives more "options".
Maybe we dont want more options maybe we just want balance and less friggin volatility in this game.
Siege Tanks and Medivacs already limit the maps that can be made even without Siege Tank drops, so I don't really see your point here... it was always the case.
High HP/Armor targets have all sorts of tricks you can design. Tackle the armor strength with armor ignoring spells like a Plague, potentially, or a flat armor debuff that's not necessarily based on a drone. Perhaps you can tag your own units with the ability to debuff units if the tagged gets hit or the target gets hit by the tagged. You can make Snipe (or armor debuff) interactive if you make it a skillshot. Alternatively, you can also tackle the HP aspect with a % of HP spell. Or make a spell where being big and blocky sucks, like a concussive blast or something for the Marauders. Ultras still cleave, right, so an anti-flanker upgrade on Marauder or Helbat or something, eat up that splash. In BW TvZ you need Dark Swarm to engage, since the situations are reversed, why not try a reverse Dark Swarm? As in, melee is disfavored under the AoE.
I do not have access to LotV but I keep hearing conflicting reports on Protoss being UP with LotV in general, but because of the success of the Adept and Disruptor, they can cheese their way into a win state pretty early so that 3 base vs 3 base disparity hasn't come to roost yet. Obviously you, DK, got stats and whatnot, so if P actually is hurting, then a not so ground breaking change would be to buff Zealot and Sentry speed. Both Z and T have excellent multibase mobility with very little sacrifice to cost efficiency or presenting strength. I know Warpgate destroys defenders advantage, but Speedlings and Speedivacs can cover quite a lot of distance in those warping 8 seconds, and they get to do it continuously. Which is likely why Blizzard has always been stoic about tearing down Warpgate, because the community overstates how game-changing Warpgate is, IMO. I think FF could be holding Gateway back though. Indestructible zone control can get ugly, if on top of that, your units could go toe to toe. Same with PO, makes everything too safe if you had an army that can make you safe, but you can't make that safe army for several minutes for some reason.
If we're bringing up candidates for messing around with damage point and speed and feel of their micro: Zealot, Sentry, and High Templar seem to always be liabilities with their basic unit micro potential. You just give them some early to mid game QoL improvements and maybe a Gateway really can defend 3 bases. Also DT Blink. DT Blink.
I'm glad those posts are becoming a regular thing, and my confidence in LotV has grown a lot these days. I'm especially glad of the direction they're taking with the disruptor (while hoping the +shields damage goes, +shields damage makes 0 sense except for EMPs).
Nevertheless : 1) I hope game devs aren't too stubborn with 8 armor ultras and that drone ability. 2) No one said active abilities weren't interesting, but that orgy of active abilities is sickening and makes SC2 look like a bad MOBA wannabe. 3) Why not make it simple : a medivac can pick up a sieged tank, but when it's dropped, it's not sieged anymore. 4) Are we ever gonna have some clarification about the liberator ? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "bug" is still in the game and no statement about it ? 5) Please study the feedback about too many range indicators on screen in some cases. Consider allowing customization of which indicators we wish to see, I'm pretty sure everyone would be happy about that.
+shields damage goes, +shields damage makes 0 sense except for EMPs
It makes a lot of sense since AOE abilities per definition are better vs low HP targets. Protoss units generally have much more life, which makes them they less vulnerable to those types of abilities.
+shields damage goes, +shields damage makes 0 sense except for EMPs
It makes a lot of sense since AOE abilities per definition are better vs low HP targets. Protoss units generally have much more life, which makes them they less vulnerable to those types of abilities.
well I meant from lore point of view. I can understand the reasoning, but it's really inelegant.
On June 27 2015 21:57 [PkF] Wire wrote: 3) Why not make it simple : a medivac can pick up a sieged tank, but when it's dropped, it's not sieged anymore.
Pride. Starbow did that therefore they can't.
On June 27 2015 21:57 [PkF] Wire wrote: 4) Are we ever gonna have some clarification about the liberator ? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "bug" is still in the game and no statement about it ?
Again pride. At this point we can safely assume that it was never a bug and that community manager just made a honest mistake, but Blizzard won't ever admit that mistake.
There's talk about how the saturation of active abilities kinda steers the SC2 into MOBA territory - but isn't the Drone in a way better than Snipe in this regard? Because Drone has some qualities of a passive ability: you place it on a map and the thing does its job without your additional active input. It's actually similar to a PDD, Raven turret, Timewarp and Guardian Shield.
There's also additional incentive towards using Drone instead of Snipe. The game is getting faster and the macro is getting harder. You have to expand faster, cover more ground, have better map vision and there are also new abilities and micro potential with LotV that is higher than ever. Having to use Snipe multiple times in a battle at just the right time means either (1) we won't see APM elsewhere (drops, defending with multiple armies, kiting), or (2) we won't see Ghosts used.
Considering those 2 points, isn't the semi-passive Drone ability a much better idea, when you think about it? This way, Ghost will actually be used more, not because Drone is more "fun" or better, but because it's simply manageable. But to really see it in action, it has to somehow be buffed and than later nerfed if needed.
As a protoss player the Disruptor change concerns me the most. To me, it's exciting to have a unit that can do such devastating damage, kind of like the Reaver or Storms from BW. So instead of nerfing the damage, maybe they could explore something like Disruptors can still be attacked while phased but each attack only does 1 damage and any other effects such as marauder slow or fungal growth still apply. This could offer some interesting counter play I think but it would obviously need testing.
On June 27 2015 21:57 [PkF] Wire wrote: 3) Why not make it simple : a medivac can pick up a sieged tank, but when it's dropped, it's not sieged anymore.
+shields damage goes, +shields damage makes 0 sense except for EMPs
It makes a lot of sense since AOE abilities per definition are better vs low HP targets. Protoss units generally have much more life, which makes them they less vulnerable to those types of abilities.
well I meant from lore point of view. I can understand the reasoning, but it's really inelegant.
In BW all units gave "full damage" to shield. We really need to get rid of the idea that we can't have diferent damage values to different races in order to keep stuff "elegant". Unit balance and diversity should always take priority in that regard.
On June 27 2015 21:57 [PkF] Wire wrote: 3) Why not make it simple : a medivac can pick up a sieged tank, but when it's dropped, it's not sieged anymore.
Pride. Starbow did that therefore they can't.
I hope it isn't that...
Most likely they want siege pick up micro to be a big part of engagements. If it came out unsiged, it would only function as an ecape tool.
+shields damage goes, +shields damage makes 0 sense except for EMPs
It makes a lot of sense since AOE abilities per definition are better vs low HP targets. Protoss units generally have much more life, which makes them they less vulnerable to those types of abilities.
well I meant from lore point of view. I can understand the reasoning, but it's really inelegant.
In BW all units gave "full damage" to shield. We really need to get rid of the idea that we can't have diferent damage values to different races in order to keep stuff "elegant". Unit balance and diversity should always take priority in that regard.
On June 27 2015 21:57 [PkF] Wire wrote: 3) Why not make it simple : a medivac can pick up a sieged tank, but when it's dropped, it's not sieged anymore.
Pride. Starbow did that therefore they can't.
I hope it isn't that...
Most likely they want siege pick up micro to be a big part of engagements. If it came out unsiged, it would only function as an ecape tool.
It's gonna depend on the delay time they're gonna add to the siege drop. If it's about the same time as manual siege (or inexplicably longer), unsieged drop will be more flexible for the Terran player (and unsieged tanks, while formidable, aren't comparatively as much of a threat as the sieged one, which could be considered beneficial for the opponent). I think the siege delay will only "work" if it's one or two seconds.
On June 27 2015 14:30 raXNT wrote: Remove pick up siege tank already, that stupid idea will limit what types of maps can be made and it will make you have to nerf other things and adjust the game just because u think it looks "cool" and gives more "options".
Maybe we dont want more options maybe we just want balance and less friggin volatility in this game.
Siege Tanks and Medivacs already limit the maps that can be made even without Siege Tank drops, so I don't really see your point here... it was always the case.
You can leapfrog push insanely much faster and push from several locations with almost 0 risk, especially early/mid game.
You used to have to unsiege and siege which gave the opponent an "OPTION" to break the siege line more effectivly.
you have so many medivacs that having 5+ siege tanks flying around could be viable. it's a lot different from reaver-shuttle where it was really difficult to control and you couldn't afford too many shuttles. the former has the potential to become a default pairing, so that you never see siege tanks without medivacs and they are de facto extremely mobile. and that really changes the unit concept.
in comparison you could add the pick-up to bw and it wouldn't change that much due to weaker dropships, it would still leave the siege tank immobile.
On June 27 2015 21:57 [PkF] Wire wrote: 3) Why not make it simple : a medivac can pick up a sieged tank, but when it's dropped, it's not sieged anymore.
Pride. Starbow did that therefore they can't.
I'm almost 95% sure that happened in WoL beta and then bugfixed. If I'm not wrong there are some behaviors of that in the editor, from WoL data.
The siege-medivac thing should be an upgrade though. Any type of early drops are really really strong, and siegetank-medivac is even stronger tan options before.
An upgrade requirement/armory fits 1/1/1 quite well. We need to remove so many upgrades from Cyclones, and superflous ones from starport (Durable Materials, Medivac energy) and make upgrades really appealing, adding functionality.
Why an upgrade if even with siege-drop zerg are overrunning the ladder? Zerg will take damage, but they have to, otherwise they just kill terrans with left hand.
On June 28 2015 03:28 _indigo_ wrote: Why an upgrade if even with siege-drop zerg are overrunning the ladder? Zerg will take damage, but they have to, otherwise they just kill terrans with left hand.
Because something is imbalanced it doesn't mean that another thing should be imbalanced too.
Zerg drops need some regulation that will come, such as tech level (at Lair, minimum) or extra requirement (Merge ventral sacs with speed upgrade).
It's not about "Zerg has X cheese/ exploiteable functionality very early with little counterplay, Terran should have another one"
On June 27 2015 21:57 [PkF] Wire wrote: 3) Why not make it simple : a medivac can pick up a sieged tank, but when it's dropped, it's not sieged anymore.
Pride. Starbow did that therefore they can't.
I hope it isn't that...
It is. It always has been.
The community comes up with a great idea to solve a problem with SC2, then Blizzard does it's own thing which fails miserably, then months later Blizzard does exactly what the community said they should, but pretends it is their idea....
Warhounds, Hellbat nerf, Oracle Mineral Shields, Tank attack speed increase, hardened shield removal, 4 Gate ramp nerf, Vortex removal, Fungal nerf, Immortal range buff, Hydra buff ect...
A large portion of the community had requested specific changes (let's not even go into general changes like changing the Swarm Host or nerfing the 1-1-1, Blizzard took so long with those) long before they actually happened, and after Blizzard messed around with some other stupid ideas first.
I'm gonna tell you right now, that the Siege Tank drop ability is going to change. These things are not hard to predict, Blizzard just needs time to spin their wheels for awhile. It is a sad trend.
The real problem with Blizzard is an insistence to make their own ideas work no matter the cost. Like their new economy or the Tempest (which has almost morphed roles more times than the Bunker build time has changed).
Protoss never needed the Tempest. They already has an expensive, slowing moving, siege range capital ship in the Carrier that wasn't functional because it wasn't balanced, it was a bad. But instead of making it functional they replicated it, not only leaving the useless Carrier in the game, but made the Tempest into a hard counter that only did high damage to certain units, and there was less counterplay because opponents couldn't kill off the Interceptors.
On June 28 2015 03:28 _indigo_ wrote: Why an upgrade if even with siege-drop zerg are overrunning the ladder? Zerg will take damage, but they have to, otherwise they just kill terrans with left hand.
Because something is imbalanced it doesn't mean that another thing should be imbalanced too.
Zerg drops need some regulation that will come, such as tech level (at Lair, minimum) or extra requirement (Merge ventral sacs with speed upgrade).
It's not about "Zerg has X cheese/ exploiteable functionality very early with little counterplay, Terran should have another one"
I'm not even talking about zerg overlord drops or cheese. Overall zerg can deal with terran pretty well in LotV, and most tournaments feature only zergs and some terrans. (but consider those terrans are Koreans, zerg are EU and still play on-par).
So no, it's not about drops. It's ok if tank drops do damage, because game is not in favor of terran than. Tank drops also mean no hellions, no fast stim, no fast 3cc, so terran "takes eco damage" as well.
perhaps another issue re medivacs is that they're the main gas sink for terran, but because of the asymmetry in medivac vs bio retention frequent trading leads to superfluous medivac counts with terran only having to spent minerals. the argument could be made that by having gas not as a limiting factor you remove incentives to expand (worker pairing, mules) and you simplify economy to a mathematical problem of maximizing minerals instead of making trade offs between gas and mineral units.
David Kim wrote: Games where Snipe would take down a few critical units instantly and the game would end.
Wait, you think this a problem?
Your entire late game is built around abilities (or units) that negate other units instantly, ending the game.
Tempests to Broodlords. Fungal to everything. Abduct to expensive units. Blinding Cloud to everything. PDD to anything with projects. EMP and Feedback to anything with that requires energy... ect ect...
I've been arguing that for years, that that kind of playstyle is horrible, and literally the game can and will often come down to a few seconds of critical micro where either the Abducts hit the Colossus, or the Feedbacks lands on the Vipers. Everything else after that is often academic, because the game was decided.
And instantly is a bit of an exaggeration in all cases here. Snipe didn't one shot Ultras or Broods, just like Tempests don't one shot Broodlords. But the result is the same, the game can come down to a few seconds of micro.
Such a PR statement, just commenting on some units that only need minor adjustments and ignoring the real problems in the game like ultras, parasitic bomb, lurker, adepts, tempests and of course the economy. But well, now he can say he is "communicating" right?
David Kim wrote: Games where Snipe would take down a few critical units instantly and the game would end.
Wait, you think this a problem?
Your entire late game is built around abilities (or units) that negate other units instantly, ending the game.
Tempests to Broodlords. Fungal to everything. Abduct to expensive units. Blinding Cloud to everything. PDD to anything with projects. EMP and Feedback to anything with that requires energy... ect ect...
I've been arguing that for years, that that kind of playstyle is horrible, and literally the game can and will often come down to a few seconds of critical micro where either the Abducts hit the Colossus, or the Feedbacks lands on the Vipers. Everything else after that is often academic, because the game was decided.
And instantly is a bit of an exaggeration in all cases here. Snipe didn't one shot Ultras or Broods, just like Tempests don't one shot Broodlords. But the result is the same, the game can come down to a few seconds of micro.
So why is only snipe getting changed?
I think you are a bit all over the place with this comment. Snipe is really just click-click-click and the unit is actually dead if you clicked enough. Snipe alone does that and that is why there is no counterplay to snipe itself.
Mentioned area affect spells like Blinding Cloud or PDD do not do that. First of, they don't actually kill anything. A random Viper flying in and casting a blinding cloud on your army is not something you have to worry about or have to counter. You need to combo them with armies, and even then you can just counter blinding cloud by moving out of the effect area. There is an immidiate counterplay to it to vastly diminish its effect.
For some others like abduct your point becomes obviously more comparable to snipe, but at the end of the day if I had to make a list with the abilities with least counterplay, place one would be Snipe and Yamato. Those are abilities that are just "click: you are dead", disregarding the situation (whether it is 1 against 100 or 100 against 100; regardless of positioning; regardless of micro; they always kill you in the same way without a chance to counteract them).
When you say
But the result is the same, the game can come down to a few seconds of micro.
that is obviously true for a lot of the mentioned abilities. But there is a vast difference in whether I can choose to not engage into a PDD and pull out of that area in those few seconds. Or my units being gone to shit the moment Snipe has gone off in those few seconds, regardless of what I did. + Show Spoiler +
Note, that the Raven being a vastly overpowered unit that would need some hard nerfs to its supply efficiency to make for a fair lategame is pretty much disconnected to how the PDD works; there are just too many PDDs because Ravens are too cheap on the supply/have too much energy/PDDs cost too little energy for what a devastating effect it has on certain units; but that's not different from any situation in which you can just get a better army than your opponent, whether it is because you have a timing going that he didn't realize or a because it is because a unit is fucked up. If you have just so much more stuff that wasting units/shots/PDDs doesn't matter anymore, then it doesn't make sense talking about counterplays anyways.
So why is only snipe getting changed?
Because it is easy (1) and fits their design goals (2). 1) Snipe is not fundamental to anything, it's current main applicance to Snipe Templar can be replaced with EMP. 2) Bio hasn't really gotten anything yet in LotV. Giving the ghost some love with a new spell fits their vision of a higher tier bio-unit that might be useful across the board in all matchups.
It's not so much that they want it to go because of bad microinteractions and would do the same with everything else with bad microinteractions, but bringing out that argument makes it even easier to justify. Especially since snipe has a history that fits exactly this argument against it. Doing the same to, say Yamato, would be quite hard to justify because Yamato was never strong enough to actually have a strategical impact. Snipe was broken and blizzard can easily just say "hey look, we gave it two expansions but the moment the ability becomes stronger it becomes unfun, and if it is weak the ghost is weak which we don't want". You can't do that with Yamato or Abduct or many other things. They never had to be nerfed hard to keep the game playable.
David Kim wrote: New Ghost ability Before we discuss the new ability, we’d like to point out that the beta exists so that we can test various changes, and some will be bigger changes like this. As we’ve pointed out before, we’re still in beta and nothing is final. If we end up feeling the change doesn’t work, it’s easy to just revert the change, and there was no harm done. On the other hand, by trying out bigger changes such as this one, we can learn more about a tool that the Ghost can potentially use, or even give us more ideas in terms of what else we can try next.
Maybe my own calibration is wrong here, but I don't find adding an ability that much of a big change at all and it really brings up questions about Blizzard's development process for me.
What do you guys think, is new ability a 'big change' for you?
my solution for ghost would be to make snipe pierce units on its way to the main target. kill 2 HTs with one snipe? so i immediately thought about massing them (yea OP right?), and i guess this would be even cooler: make it only pierce 1 or 2 units, so you could maybe even blink a stalker to block the snipe. that or they could add a visible warm-up time to the snipe? mess with the damage? just a thought...
I've also thought about restoring emp to full damage, with maybe returning khaydarin amulet as a kind of regen or something reworked. more importantly, though, bringing back lockdown might be nice, though it wouldn't help against ultras...
David Kim wrote: New Ghost ability Before we discuss the new ability, we’d like to point out that the beta exists so that we can test various changes, and some will be bigger changes like this. As we’ve pointed out before, we’re still in beta and nothing is final. If we end up feeling the change doesn’t work, it’s easy to just revert the change, and there was no harm done. On the other hand, by trying out bigger changes such as this one, we can learn more about a tool that the Ghost can potentially use, or even give us more ideas in terms of what else we can try next.
Maybe my own calibration is wrong here, but I don't find adding an ability that much of a big change at all and it really brings up questions about Blizzard's development process for me.
What do you guys think, is new ability a 'big change' for you?
It depends on the ability. The new Overlord dropping mechanic is a pretty big change, because it opens up early harassment options for Zerg and undermines the loathsome Force Field defense (so it will prompt other big changes for Protoss in response, domino effect style).
Ghosts taking off armor instead of HP with the click of a button is not a big change. It's not even a medium change. They've done bigger overhauls in free patches.
On June 28 2015 03:53 BronzeKnee wrote: I'm gonna tell you right now, that the Siege Tank drop ability is going to change. These things are not hard to predict, Blizzard just needs time to spin their wheels for awhile. It is a sad trend.
did u even read the OP completely?
here is what David Kim said in the OP.
"we’re exploring potential ways to tone down the Siege Tank without nerfing it too much. We’re not saying we know for certain if the current version is too strong, but we’re exploring this area internally to see what we can find. This week, we’re trying a version where the pick-up is instant (but the tank still stays in Siege Mode), and when this type of Siege Tank is dropped, the tank itself needs time to set up at that new location."
so David Kim has already told you its changing.
nice getting in some backhanded cheap shots by paraphrasing comments already made a couple of days ago though.
On June 28 2015 03:53 BronzeKnee wrote: I'm gonna tell you right now, that the Siege Tank drop ability is going to change. These things are not hard to predict, Blizzard just needs time to spin their wheels for awhile. It is a sad trend.
did u even read the OP completely?
here is what David Kim said in the OP.
"we’re exploring potential ways to tone down the Siege Tank without nerfing it too much. We’re not saying we know for certain if the current version is too strong, but we’re exploring this area internally to see what we can find. This week, we’re trying a version where the pick-up is instant (but the tank still stays in Siege Mode), and when this type of Siege Tank is dropped, the tank itself needs time to set up at that new location."
so David Kim has already told you its changing.
nice getting in some backhanded cheap shots by paraphrasing comments already made a couple of days ago though.
You are right. Noone was able to predict that picking up and dropping artillery unimpeded would ever pose a problem. /sarcasm
More accurately would be to say that noone was able to predict Blizzard's capabilities becoming so unreliable they would seriously consider such an option.
Your agenda-driven posts are really exasperating to read btw.
On June 28 2015 03:53 BronzeKnee wrote: I'm gonna tell you right now, that the Siege Tank drop ability is going to change. These things are not hard to predict, Blizzard just needs time to spin their wheels for awhile. It is a sad trend.
did u even read the OP completely?
here is what David Kim said in the OP.
"we’re exploring potential ways to tone down the Siege Tank without nerfing it too much. We’re not saying we know for certain if the current version is too strong, but we’re exploring this area internally to see what we can find. This week, we’re trying a version where the pick-up is instant (but the tank still stays in Siege Mode), and when this type of Siege Tank is dropped, the tank itself needs time to set up at that new location."
so David Kim has already told you its changing.
nice getting in some backhanded cheap shots by paraphrasing comments already made a couple of days ago though.
You are right. Noone was able to predict that picking up and dropping artillery unimpeded would ever pose a problem. /sarcasm
More accurately would be to say that noone was able to predict Blizzard's capabilities becoming so unreliable they would seriously consider such an option.
Your agenda-driven posts are really exasperating to read btw.
It’s too early to make a judgment on this new ability,
I am of the opinion that game designers (or those aspiring to be) have a tendency to overanalyze certain decisions. You can always find arguments to justify certain abilities and talk about the interactions - especially if you compare it to Snipe which was very flawed on the Ghost (as he pointed out).
However, when it comes to whether an ability should stay in the game or not, you should ask your self whether its actually fun to use or not. That's not something that requires months of playtesting to realize. From my experience, abilities needs a very clear and obvious effect on the gameplay in order to feel fun, and this is the problem with single-target debuffs. They do not have such an obvious effect.
You are never going to feel like this WOW I just casted this sick -3 armor debuff on the Ultralisk. That was really fun!!!
On the other hand, you will hear players say Sick Storms as landing Psi Storm can be very rewarding.
Instead, when you force players to cast these abilities you turn their attention away from what I define as fun micro. That is moving your units around the map instead of spamming boring abilities.
This way, there’s a bit of a delay before firing each shot, and the Medivac is still free to move around since both the pick-up and drop on this side is instant. We don’t know what the optimal number of seconds will be for the tank to set up, but it’s something we’re playing around with.
Seems like a good solution.
Hider,
I read most of your comments regarding fun abilities, and I think you simplify design by basing it around being fun.
First of all, fun is a relative term, and what you would consider fun others might think is un-fun. You state it should not take a lot of time to determine whether an ability is fun, but who should consider the fun-factor of an ability? You alone? The TL community? The entire multi-player community? Its still incredibly difficult to consider whether an ability is fun or un-fun because fun is a relative term.
Second, its not realistic to just design abilities only around being fun. SC2 is too complicated to use fun as the only factor when considering design decisions. The design of RTS will require some abilities that aren't so fun, but are incredibly necessary.
I agree that abilities need to be fun, but its not quite as easy to find that fun-factor, or about the ability's affect on balance.
On June 28 2015 05:37 Charoisaur wrote: Such a PR statement, just commenting on some units that only need minor adjustments and ignoring the real problems in the game like ultras, parasitic bomb, lurker, adepts, tempests and of course the economy. But well, now he can say he is "communicating" right?
Really Charoisaur? Really? Are you always this cynical? Its comments like yours that provides no substance to the discussion. We can't realistically expect DKim to write a 20-page manifesto on the design/development of LotV, but it seems you want them to discuss everything now.
Just let them do their job, and give them your feedback when you don't like their decision. Don't start whining about the "PR" statements.
Also, of course their communication with us involved some PR. Communication in general will involve PR, because that is essentially public relations.
You seem to consider the term 'public relations' as only 'bullshit'.
Hider's comment is bad not because he's simplifying fun, but because he's simplifying the ability.
Remember, the drone apparently can be attacked and destroyed, meaning there is counterplay against it, as well as counter-counterplay with it. And that kind of stuff is fun. It's not just a debuff spell.
Maybe the spell isn't fun. I don't know. That should obviously be a factor in how it works. Just from the description we have, it may be more fun to have it have an additional effect (like a DOT or slowing effect or something), but I haven't seen it in action so I don't know.
I wish Blizzard would actually focus on 2 real problems i find in the game which are parasitic bomb/lurkers being to strong in zoning areas and units and also pretty much preventing super late game play vs zerg !!!
EPT
