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High HP/Armor targets have all sorts of tricks you can design. Tackle the armor strength with armor ignoring spells like a Plague, potentially, or a flat armor debuff that's not necessarily based on a drone. Perhaps you can tag your own units with the ability to debuff units if the tagged gets hit or the target gets hit by the tagged. You can make Snipe (or armor debuff) interactive if you make it a skillshot. Alternatively, you can also tackle the HP aspect with a % of HP spell. Or make a spell where being big and blocky sucks, like a concussive blast or something for the Marauders. Ultras still cleave, right, so an anti-flanker upgrade on Marauder or Helbat or something, eat up that splash. In BW TvZ you need Dark Swarm to engage, since the situations are reversed, why not try a reverse Dark Swarm? As in, melee is disfavored under the AoE.
I do not have access to LotV but I keep hearing conflicting reports on Protoss being UP with LotV in general, but because of the success of the Adept and Disruptor, they can cheese their way into a win state pretty early so that 3 base vs 3 base disparity hasn't come to roost yet. Obviously you, DK, got stats and whatnot, so if P actually is hurting, then a not so ground breaking change would be to buff Zealot and Sentry speed. Both Z and T have excellent multibase mobility with very little sacrifice to cost efficiency or presenting strength. I know Warpgate destroys defenders advantage, but Speedlings and Speedivacs can cover quite a lot of distance in those warping 8 seconds, and they get to do it continuously. Which is likely why Blizzard has always been stoic about tearing down Warpgate, because the community overstates how game-changing Warpgate is, IMO. I think FF could be holding Gateway back though. Indestructible zone control can get ugly, if on top of that, your units could go toe to toe. Same with PO, makes everything too safe if you had an army that can make you safe, but you can't make that safe army for several minutes for some reason.
If we're bringing up candidates for messing around with damage point and speed and feel of their micro: Zealot, Sentry, and High Templar seem to always be liabilities with their basic unit micro potential. You just give them some early to mid game QoL improvements and maybe a Gateway really can defend 3 bases. Also DT Blink. DT Blink.
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I'm glad those posts are becoming a regular thing, and my confidence in LotV has grown a lot these days. I'm especially glad of the direction they're taking with the disruptor (while hoping the +shields damage goes, +shields damage makes 0 sense except for EMPs).
Nevertheless :
1) I hope game devs aren't too stubborn with 8 armor ultras and that drone ability.
2) No one said active abilities weren't interesting, but that orgy of active abilities is sickening and makes SC2 look like a bad MOBA wannabe.
3) Why not make it simple : a medivac can pick up a sieged tank, but when it's dropped, it's not sieged anymore.
4) Are we ever gonna have some clarification about the liberator ? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "bug" is still in the game and no statement about it ?
5) Please study the feedback about too many range indicators on screen in some cases. Consider allowing customization of which indicators we wish to see, I'm pretty sure everyone would be happy about that.
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+shields damage goes, +shields damage makes 0 sense except for EMPs
It makes a lot of sense since AOE abilities per definition are better vs low HP targets. Protoss units generally have much more life, which makes them they less vulnerable to those types of abilities.
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On June 27 2015 22:37 Hider wrote:It makes a lot of sense since AOE abilities per definition are better vs low HP targets. Protoss units generally have much more life, which makes them they less vulnerable to those types of abilities.
well I meant from lore point of view. I can understand the reasoning, but it's really inelegant.
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On June 27 2015 21:57 [PkF] Wire wrote:
3) Why not make it simple : a medivac can pick up a sieged tank, but when it's dropped, it's not sieged anymore.
Pride. Starbow did that therefore they can't.
On June 27 2015 21:57 [PkF] Wire wrote:
4) Are we ever gonna have some clarification about the liberator ? Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "bug" is still in the game and no statement about it ?
Again pride. At this point we can safely assume that it was never a bug and that community manager just made a honest mistake, but Blizzard won't ever admit that mistake.
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Let's tackle the Ghost Drone a bit more.
There's talk about how the saturation of active abilities kinda steers the SC2 into MOBA territory - but isn't the Drone in a way better than Snipe in this regard? Because Drone has some qualities of a passive ability: you place it on a map and the thing does its job without your additional active input. It's actually similar to a PDD, Raven turret, Timewarp and Guardian Shield.
There's also additional incentive towards using Drone instead of Snipe. The game is getting faster and the macro is getting harder. You have to expand faster, cover more ground, have better map vision and there are also new abilities and micro potential with LotV that is higher than ever. Having to use Snipe multiple times in a battle at just the right time means either (1) we won't see APM elsewhere (drops, defending with multiple armies, kiting), or (2) we won't see Ghosts used.
Considering those 2 points, isn't the semi-passive Drone ability a much better idea, when you think about it? This way, Ghost will actually be used more, not because Drone is more "fun" or better, but because it's simply manageable. But to really see it in action, it has to somehow be buffed and than later nerfed if needed.
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As a protoss player the Disruptor change concerns me the most. To me, it's exciting to have a unit that can do such devastating damage, kind of like the Reaver or Storms from BW. So instead of nerfing the damage, maybe they could explore something like Disruptors can still be attacked while phased but each attack only does 1 damage and any other effects such as marauder slow or fungal growth still apply. This could offer some interesting counter play I think but it would obviously need testing.
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On June 27 2015 22:54 dust7 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2015 21:57 [PkF] Wire wrote:
3) Why not make it simple : a medivac can pick up a sieged tank, but when it's dropped, it's not sieged anymore. Pride. Starbow did that therefore they can't.
I hope it isn't that...
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On June 27 2015 22:49 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2015 22:37 Hider wrote:+shields damage goes, +shields damage makes 0 sense except for EMPs It makes a lot of sense since AOE abilities per definition are better vs low HP targets. Protoss units generally have much more life, which makes them they less vulnerable to those types of abilities. well I meant from lore point of view. I can understand the reasoning, but it's really inelegant.
In BW all units gave "full damage" to shield. We really need to get rid of the idea that we can't have diferent damage values to different races in order to keep stuff "elegant". Unit balance and diversity should always take priority in that regard.
On June 28 2015 00:32 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2015 22:54 dust7 wrote:On June 27 2015 21:57 [PkF] Wire wrote:
3) Why not make it simple : a medivac can pick up a sieged tank, but when it's dropped, it's not sieged anymore. Pride. Starbow did that therefore they can't. I hope it isn't that...
Most likely they want siege pick up micro to be a big part of engagements. If it came out unsiged, it would only function as an ecape tool.
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On June 28 2015 00:44 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2015 22:49 [PkF] Wire wrote:On June 27 2015 22:37 Hider wrote:+shields damage goes, +shields damage makes 0 sense except for EMPs It makes a lot of sense since AOE abilities per definition are better vs low HP targets. Protoss units generally have much more life, which makes them they less vulnerable to those types of abilities. well I meant from lore point of view. I can understand the reasoning, but it's really inelegant. In BW all units gave "full damage" to shield. We really need to get rid of the idea that we can't have diferent damage values to different races in order to keep stuff "elegant". Unit balance and diversity should always take priority in that regard. Show nested quote +On June 28 2015 00:32 [PkF] Wire wrote:On June 27 2015 22:54 dust7 wrote:On June 27 2015 21:57 [PkF] Wire wrote:
3) Why not make it simple : a medivac can pick up a sieged tank, but when it's dropped, it's not sieged anymore. Pride. Starbow did that therefore they can't. I hope it isn't that... Most likely they want siege pick up micro to be a big part of engagements. If it came out unsiged, it would only function as an ecape tool.
It's gonna depend on the delay time they're gonna add to the siege drop. If it's about the same time as manual siege (or inexplicably longer), unsieged drop will be more flexible for the Terran player (and unsieged tanks, while formidable, aren't comparatively as much of a threat as the sieged one, which could be considered beneficial for the opponent). I think the siege delay will only "work" if it's one or two seconds.
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On June 27 2015 18:46 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2015 14:30 raXNT wrote:
Remove pick up siege tank already, that stupid idea will limit what types of maps can be made and it will make you have to nerf other things and adjust the game just because u think it looks "cool" and gives more "options".
Maybe we dont want more options maybe we just want balance and less friggin volatility in this game. Siege Tanks and Medivacs already limit the maps that can be made even without Siege Tank drops, so I don't really see your point here... it was always the case.
You can leapfrog push insanely much faster and push from several locations with almost 0 risk, especially early/mid game.
You used to have to unsiege and siege which gave the opponent an "OPTION" to break the siege line more effectivly.
And you think this won't affect maps? OK
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you have so many medivacs that having 5+ siege tanks flying around could be viable. it's a lot different from reaver-shuttle where it was really difficult to control and you couldn't afford too many shuttles. the former has the potential to become a default pairing, so that you never see siege tanks without medivacs and they are de facto extremely mobile. and that really changes the unit concept.
in comparison you could add the pick-up to bw and it wouldn't change that much due to weaker dropships, it would still leave the siege tank immobile.
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On June 27 2015 22:54 dust7 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2015 21:57 [PkF] Wire wrote:
3) Why not make it simple : a medivac can pick up a sieged tank, but when it's dropped, it's not sieged anymore. Pride. Starbow did that therefore they can't.
I'm almost 95% sure that happened in WoL beta and then bugfixed. If I'm not wrong there are some behaviors of that in the editor, from WoL data.
The siege-medivac thing should be an upgrade though. Any type of early drops are really really strong, and siegetank-medivac is even stronger tan options before.
An upgrade requirement/armory fits 1/1/1 quite well. We need to remove so many upgrades from Cyclones, and superflous ones from starport (Durable Materials, Medivac energy) and make upgrades really appealing, adding functionality.
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Why an upgrade if even with siege-drop zerg are overrunning the ladder? Zerg will take damage, but they have to, otherwise they just kill terrans with left hand.
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On June 28 2015 03:28 _indigo_ wrote:
Why an upgrade if even with siege-drop zerg are overrunning the ladder? Zerg will take damage, but they have to, otherwise they just kill terrans with left hand.
Because something is imbalanced it doesn't mean that another thing should be imbalanced too.
Zerg drops need some regulation that will come, such as tech level (at Lair, minimum) or extra requirement (Merge ventral sacs with speed upgrade).
It's not about "Zerg has X cheese/ exploiteable functionality very early with little counterplay, Terran should have another one"
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On June 28 2015 00:32 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2015 22:54 dust7 wrote:On June 27 2015 21:57 [PkF] Wire wrote:
3) Why not make it simple : a medivac can pick up a sieged tank, but when it's dropped, it's not sieged anymore. Pride. Starbow did that therefore they can't. I hope it isn't that...
It is. It always has been.
The community comes up with a great idea to solve a problem with SC2, then Blizzard does it's own thing which fails miserably, then months later Blizzard does exactly what the community said they should, but pretends it is their idea....
Warhounds, Hellbat nerf, Oracle Mineral Shields, Tank attack speed increase, hardened shield removal, 4 Gate ramp nerf, Vortex removal, Fungal nerf, Immortal range buff, Hydra buff ect...
A large portion of the community had requested specific changes (let's not even go into general changes like changing the Swarm Host or nerfing the 1-1-1, Blizzard took so long with those) long before they actually happened, and after Blizzard messed around with some other stupid ideas first.
I'm gonna tell you right now, that the Siege Tank drop ability is going to change. These things are not hard to predict, Blizzard just needs time to spin their wheels for awhile. It is a sad trend.
The real problem with Blizzard is an insistence to make their own ideas work no matter the cost. Like their new economy or the Tempest (which has almost morphed roles more times than the Bunker build time has changed).
Protoss never needed the Tempest. They already has an expensive, slowing moving, siege range capital ship in the Carrier that wasn't functional because it wasn't balanced, it was a bad. But instead of making it functional they replicated it, not only leaving the useless Carrier in the game, but made the Tempest into a hard counter that only did high damage to certain units, and there was less counterplay because opponents couldn't kill off the Interceptors.
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On June 28 2015 03:40 JCoto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 28 2015 03:28 _indigo_ wrote:
Why an upgrade if even with siege-drop zerg are overrunning the ladder? Zerg will take damage, but they have to, otherwise they just kill terrans with left hand. Because something is imbalanced it doesn't mean that another thing should be imbalanced too. Zerg drops need some regulation that will come, such as tech level (at Lair, minimum) or extra requirement (Merge ventral sacs with speed upgrade). It's not about "Zerg has X cheese/ exploiteable functionality very early with little counterplay, Terran should have another one"
I'm not even talking about zerg overlord drops or cheese. Overall zerg can deal with terran pretty well in LotV, and most tournaments feature only zergs and some terrans. (but consider those terrans are Koreans, zerg are EU and still play on-par).
So no, it's not about drops. It's ok if tank drops do damage, because game is not in favor of terran than. Tank drops also mean no hellions, no fast stim, no fast 3cc, so terran "takes eco damage" as well.
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perhaps another issue re medivacs is that they're the main gas sink for terran, but because of the asymmetry in medivac vs bio retention frequent trading leads to superfluous medivac counts with terran only having to spent minerals. the argument could be made that by having gas not as a limiting factor you remove incentives to expand (worker pairing, mules) and you simplify economy to a mathematical problem of maximizing minerals instead of making trade offs between gas and mineral units.
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David Kim wrote:
Games where Snipe would take down a few critical units instantly and the game would end.
Wait, you think this a problem?
Your entire late game is built around abilities (or units) that negate other units instantly, ending the game.
Tempests to Broodlords. Fungal to everything. Abduct to expensive units. Blinding Cloud to everything. PDD to anything with projects. EMP and Feedback to anything with that requires energy... ect ect...
I've been arguing that for years, that that kind of playstyle is horrible, and literally the game can and will often come down to a few seconds of critical micro where either the Abducts hit the Colossus, or the Feedbacks lands on the Vipers. Everything else after that is often academic, because the game was decided.
And instantly is a bit of an exaggeration in all cases here. Snipe didn't one shot Ultras or Broods, just like Tempests don't one shot Broodlords. But the result is the same, the game can come down to a few seconds of micro.
So why is only snipe getting changed?
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EPT
