EPTLotV: Dragoon - a good idea for Protoss? - Page 2
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EpicDemente
Chile202 Posts
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ZombieFrog
United States87 Posts
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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BEARDiaguz
Australia2362 Posts
This thread should be closed. | ||
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robopork
United States511 Posts
That being said, the Adept does quite a bit of what you're asking for. I wish it had a range upgrade somewhere down the tech tree or maybe a starting range of five so it isn't quite so pathetic against roaches, but all things considered gateway armies are a lot more formidable than they were before it. As things play out, I'm happier with the adept than I expected to be and I'm more and more disappointed in the disruptor. Initially it seemed like no one knew how to deal with them and they were great, but people have figured out what micro and tech is necessary to shut them down and in some instances (PvT bio, PvZ hydra-> lurkers) I've felt that you're literally fucked if you chose them over carriers or storm in the midgame. If there's a bw unit that Protoss would benefit from in lotv, I'd say it's the reaver. | ||
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Espers
United Kingdom606 Posts
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
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BeStFAN
483 Posts
stalker and dragoon have same unit role of applying pressure through center control in same matchup... and i think stalker is better because it is blink people who think stalker is weak unit are weak player | ||
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StalkerFang
Australia68 Posts
On May 12 2015 05:59 ZenithM wrote: I don't know what's the deal with the dragoon. The unit design is really bland: it's a unit that shoots everything... Unless you want to introduce bad pathing which is what made the micro interesting in BW, it's essentially a stalker without blink and better raw stats. Yeah I was kinda on the fence about all these arguments for bringing back the dragoon... then I went and played starbow for a couple of games. Who the hell thinks this unit is more interesting than a blink stalker? It's literally just move and shoot, not to mention it feels horrible doing that because it pauses for so long between each shot. Blizzard absolutely made the right decision removing the dragoon imo. If your goal is to make gateway units stronger, go after the zealot, it seems to me to be fairly neglected lately in favour of the stalker. EDIT: reaver too honestly, everyone complains about losing a mineral line in 1 second to a widow mine, reaver seems to be even worse. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2655 Posts
SC community: This units only shoots and moves, thats so bland SC community confirmed 15 year old girl going thorugh puberty | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5218 Posts
On May 23 2015 06:06 ROOTiaguz wrote: This thread should be closed. "I don't like what you have to say and what you guys are talking about, therefore you shouldn't be allowed to say those things." That reminds me of someone in history... Anyway I don't think it's necessary to re-introduce the Dragoon. In my opinion Blizzard did a nice job with the Stalker and Immortal, though I've always believed that hardened shields is a stupid ability that counters Mech too much, and should be removed, and the Immortal be cheaper (175-75) along with a few other minor changes. I think when it comes to improving SC2, we are way beyond simply adding or subtracting units or doing minor balance changes. I know that is exactly what Blizzard is doing as they try to improve SC2, but it needs structural changes. Despite Blizzard's best efforts to control SC2, they have been unable to do so because it is impossibly complex. Instead, they should work toward improving strategic diversity and variety, allow players plenty of opportunities to show micro skill, and make sure there is a few factors as possible left to chance, then let the players figure out the rest. They should only be stepping in when "balance" issues destroy diversity (for example: the presence of a single powerful all-in that can't be stopped in any matchup destroys diversity for said matchup). | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On May 23 2015 05:03 EpicDemente wrote: Remember that marauders + stim exist in this game, they would be pretty awful unless they change their stats massively just for them to be viable in PvT. In PvZ would still be overlapping with the stalker that fits the same role and has increased micro ability with blink, so in general it would be a useless unit. Dragoon already got wreckt by Stimmed marines anyway in bw. It's literally just move and shoot, not to mention it feels horrible doing that because it pauses for so long between each shot. To be fair, that's because the Sbow-devs wanted a higher damage point on it (for balance purposes), but this can easily be reduced and balanced in another way. | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
On May 23 2015 12:08 StalkerFang wrote: Yeah I was kinda on the fence about all these arguments for bringing back the dragoon... then I went and played starbow for a couple of games. Who the hell thinks this unit is more interesting than a blink stalker? It's literally just move and shoot, not to mention it feels horrible doing that because it pauses for so long between each shot. Blizzard absolutely made the right decision removing the dragoon imo. If your goal is to make gateway units stronger, go after the zealot, it seems to me to be fairly neglected lately in favour of the stalker. EDIT: reaver too honestly, everyone complains about losing a mineral line in 1 second to a widow mine, reaver seems to be even worse. The reaver was amazingly entertaining to watch. Everytime a reaver comes into play, my heart starts racing. Due to the fact that it is so slow and fragile, you would always have to use a shuttle to transport it. So using reavers effectively required insane amounts of micro, which is what made the unit balanced. There's also this element of chance where sometimes scarabs would "dud". This could even be promoted if you move your units a certain way. So having a reaver launch a scarab at your mineral line means you still have a chance to save it if you're fast enough. Sometimes you would have a scarab tail an entire line of workers that's desperately running away. Will it explode or not?! That's what made the reaver amazing. If a unit from brood war would be reinstated, it should be the reaver. They conceded and gave us the lurker, why not the reaver as well... | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On May 23 2015 17:47 B-royal wrote: The reaver was amazingly entertaining to watch. Everytime a reaver comes into play, my heart starts racing. Due to the fact that it is so slow and fragile, you would always have to use a shuttle to transport it. So using reavers effectively required insane amounts of micro, which is what made the unit balanced. There's also this element of chance where sometimes scarabs would "dud". This could even be promoted if you move your units a certain way. So having a reaver launch a scarab at your mineral line means you still have a chance to save it if you're fast enough. Sometimes you would have a scarab tail an entire line of workers that's desperately running away. Will it explode or not?! That's what made the reaver amazing. If a unit from brood war would be reinstated, it should be the reaver. They conceded and gave us the lurker, why not the reaver as well... They reintroduced a microable Scarab, which is the disrutpor. Basically, the disruptor is a Reaevr shot you can control, and there is counter play to it. So it's micro to get the shot, micro to evade it. The concept is fairly better than Reaavers for that reason. They are also fragile and move slow when not charging. The problem is that the "suicide mission" concept forces Disruptors to be very strong, but I think that it could be refined. | ||
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Ingvar
Russian Federation421 Posts
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
20HP difference. Stalker is less damaging vs armored but has blink: a very intensive micro, high utility, high mobility, can display a ton of skill in battles and optimizes damage output by maintaining units on the field . In any case, buff stalker, and go. | ||
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On May 23 2015 18:44 Ingvar wrote: I don't understand why you guys want BW units back. I thought sad example of carrier in SC2 would make people think "does the game need that unit or it would be used in <1% of games"? They brought back lurker because it helps transitioning out of Roach vs Roach in ZvZ (as they stated) and takes place of redesigned Host. What would Reaver/Dragoon/Goliath/whatever bring to LotV except for nostalgia? I think the interesting point of Lurker is to empower possible transitions out of Hydra play, and bring some Anti-deathball AoE and area control that can be applied on any type of units, something that Zerg lacked. SwarmHosts used to be a good area control and antideathball at the cost of being problematic, forcing stalemates, and stupidly turtle-friendly and cost efficient. | ||
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Startyr
Scotland188 Posts
I think it would be better to stick with those units and not try and add something that would be somewhere between those existing units. With the reduction in effectiveness of the colossus perhaps their could be an upgrade on the robotics bay for the immortal. For example an increase to its movement speed to allow it to 'keep up' with the rest of the protoss army and allow for better positioning to absorb damage with its shield. An upgrade for the stalker that gives it 7 range would be another possibility. If this is on the twilight council it should cost a lot and take a long time to research so having both blink and range is not available until late game. Also I agree that the disrupter plus warp prism picking up at range provides the same effect as a reaver would only with more flexibility and higher micro requirements for both the attacker and defender. The disrupter is likely to receive some more attention and changes if it is not where it needs to be right now. For example when activated a faster movement speed and shorter delay before exploding or a shorter cool down before it can be used again. Just throwing some ideas out there. I have only seen a limited number of Lotv games and all of this may be going to far or be unnecessary, but it is fun to speculate on possibilities. | ||
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okto
United States20 Posts
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