I have received requests on how to try the model out: Search "Double Harvesting (TeamLiquid)" by ZeromuS as an Extension Mod in HotS Custom Games to try it out.
Email your replays of your games on DH to: LegacyEconomyTest@gmail.com might have partnership with a replay website soon as well
Legacy of the Void entered Beta just over a week ago, bringing with it many changes to StarCraft II, including core design changes to the economy. In StarCraft, everything flows from the economy: all strategies, all builds, and all approaches to the game, and any change to the economy will have extensive effects. Therefore, they must be examined closely. The economy in StarCraft II should be challenged, and examined critically – not to debase the work done by Blizzard, but to understand and examine the effects it has on strategic diversity in SCII. I believe that taking the economy changes at face value does a disservice to the Beta process.
This article focuses on how mining works in SCII. It begins by examining mineral mining as it exists in Wings of Liberty and Heart of the Swarm. It then examines mineral mining as it currently exists in the LotV Beta. It will conclude with the introduction of an alternative mining model which seeks to achieve similar goals in LotV with a different approach. The purpose of this article is to create discussion and encourage critical thought. Everyone who loves StarCraft II wants it to be the best game it can be, and we can’t do that without questioning everything. Through questioning comes understanding.
The implications of the 12 worker start will not be examined too closely in this article. While this change is significant, it deserves a separate discussion. Additionally, the alternative economic model and the core concepts therein to be presented in this article are incompatible with a 12 worker start. The proposed alternative economic model at the end will still address the design decision to speed up the early game without requiring such a large worker start or put an end to the ultra-early game strategies currently seen in HotS and previously in WoL such as early pools or proxies.
Intelligence in StarCraft II
One of the hallmarks of SCII is the vastly improved Artificial Intelligence in comparison to its predecessor, StarCraft: Brood War. The Improved AI does a lot for StarCraft II and brings it into the modern game space. Long gone are the days of poor Dragoon AI and units being unable to move up ramps or through choke points. Instead, armies move efficiently, creating new interactions, especially with regards to splash damage and positioning in fights.
Worker AI is also greatly improved in relation to BW. In BW, workers would rarely pair on a mineral node and instead would bounce around from one mineral node to another looking for an open spot to collect minerals.
By comparison, SCII has greatly improved worker AI, and there are additional consequences associated with it. In particular, the AI allows workers to pair on mineral lines. Each mineral node allows only one worker to be mining at a time; however the AI is intelligent enough that it checks to see if the currently mining worker is almost done with their harvesting cycle. If the new worker knows that the other worker is about to be done mining it will wait at the mineral patch for its turn to mine. These AI actions can be summarized as the “check, wait, harvest” cycle. Due to the time of a harvest cycle, the speed at which workers work, and the time it takes to travel between the nexus and a mineral node, two workers are able to synchronize their mining patterns on a single mineral patch, resulting in worker pairing.
Understanding Mining Efficiency
The result of worker pairing is that in most cases two workers will mine from a patch simultaneously (with some far patches allowing for three workers to "pair"). In this scenario, all workers from first to mine on a mineral patch through to the 16th will mine harmoniously and consistently. This harmonious mining is why it is generally accepted that players should maintain at most 16 workers on a mineral line whenever a another mineral line has fewer than 16 workers in SCII.
16 Paired Workers in SCII
With the existing AI for SCII, mineral income for each individual worker is the same from the first to the 16 worker. This number is averaged out to be 42 minerals per minute for each worker when mining either alone or paired with a partner on a single mineral node. When a third worker is introduced, the “check, wait, harvest” cycle a worker goes through when approaching a mineral line is interrupted. Specifically, the interruption occurs between the “check” and “wait” portion of the cycle. With the third worker, any worker returning to mine the mineral node will see that the third worker currently harvesting will not be done within the next one second (of a 2.762 second harvest time) and seek out another mineral node to harvest (within a range of 10).
The third worker changes the efficiency of mining. This does not mean the third worker does not mine. The third worker on each patch will always seek out an empty mineral node as per the "check, wait, harvest" cycle. Due to harvest times and travel time between the nexus and mineral line, one of the eight patches will always be available to mine up until there are 24 workers on a single mineral line.
As a result of the introduction of a third worker, the mineral income (per minute) of a base begins to scale down. Until the 16th worker, the mineral income per minute of a base is linear at 42 minerals a minute per worker. Starting with the 17th worker, this linear progression begins to stop rising as sharply and eventually plateaus as shown below. Interestingly, workers number 17 and 18 are 99% as efficient as the workers before them. But for the purpose of this discussion, we will consider anything less than 100% efficiency as a “drop in efficiency”.
One base mining curve in SCII
The Impact of the Current Mineral Efficiency Model in SCII
Now that the concept of mineral mining efficiency has been explained, we can move on to understanding its impact on SCII. A regularly proclaimed concern in the community regarding SCII is the existence of passive, three-base play or other slow-to-expand turtle strategies. Mining efficiency has a large impact on the optimal three base income.
Workers in SCII only begin to mine less efficiently (relative to their counterparts on any single mineral line) when a 17th worker mines alongside with the original 16. The result of this is the conventional game play decision to keep only 16 workers on a mineral line whenever another mineral line (with less than 16 workers) is available.
16 workers, regardless of number of bases mine the same amount in the current economy in SCII
The first gameplay scenario we will examine is a "one base against two base" scenario in which both players have 16 workers available to them. The only advantage gained by the player with an expansion is the ability to create more workers and eventually mine more minerals. While both players are at the same worker count, they both have the same mineral income per minute (since each worker is equally efficient). Splitting the workers between the bases makes no difference; only having more workers (for example, 8 workers on the additional mineral line available) will allow the two base player to have a higher mineral income than the one base player. The following image illustrates this point:
In this example we can see how only after the 17th worker does splitting workers between bases begin to matter
We can examine the “three base cap” using efficiency. Let us consider a player (Bob) with three bases and 75 workers (leaving 125 supply for army). Bob is mining from all six gas geysers with a total of 18 workers. This leaves Bob with 57 workers to mine minerals on three bases. Bob splits these last 57 workers on all bases, putting 19 workers on each mineral line to work. Each of Bob’s bases brings in 745 minerals per minute, resulting in a total income of 2,235 minerals a minute.
Bob’s opponent Chris is on four bases with the same number of workers. On the first three bases, Chris has all six gas geysers mining and 16 workers on each mineral line. This leaves him 9 workers to allocate as he sees fit on the fourth base. Chris decides to take the gas geysers and put the last 3 workers on minerals. Chris’s mineral income is 2,142 minerals per minute. In this scenario, while his gas income is higher, Chris is actually mining fewer minerals than Bob.
A chart showing Bob and Chris's relative income
If Chris chose not to take the gas geysers and put the 9 probes on minerals his income would be 2,394 minerals a minute. This is only a 7% increase in mineral income at the detriment of not taking two additional gas geysers (215 gas a minute from two geysers). Fully saturating the fourth base means an additional 25% income for Chris compared to Bob. However, this requires an additional 13 workers (resulting in a total of 88). These extra 13 workers represent 13 possible army supply that is used to gain an economic mineral advantage.
Therefore, there is no inherent advantage to expanding beyond three bases when two players have a similar worker supply. To gain an advantage, the player with a fourth base needs to make far more workers than his or her opponent and sacrifice army supply in order to do so. In this sense, there is some veracity in the claim that there is a three base mining cap in SCII when both players have a similar number of workers in game. The reward for expanding is fairly small while the risk is much larger. In scenarios where a player does not have map control, there is zero incentive to expand beyond three bases if they do not intend to make over 80 workers in a game.
The mining cap is therefore set by interactions at the worker level, which will be discussed in greater detail further into the article.
Breaking the Cap: Introducing Inefficiencies into the Mining Curve
Earlier in the article, we described how in BW harvesters tend to bounce between mineral nodes when there are more workers present than there are mineral nodes in any given mineral line (with few exceptions). In SCII, this would translate to 9 or more workers in present in a mineral line. Worker bouncing is the antithesis to worker pairing described earlier in this analysis. In the absence of worker pairing, the efficiency cap of 16 workers in SCII begins to drop off at the 9th worker instead of the 17th.
As we have already established, due to the high efficiency of workers in StarCraft II, there is no tangible benefit to expanding beyond three mining bases in order to obtain a mineral advantage over your opponent with the same worker count. Any base beyond three mining bases exists only to provide additional gas to the player with four bases. To leave less than 19 workers on each mineral line on the first three bases only serves to lose you money if you do not intend to take the gas on the fourth base. The reason for this three base cap has been identified as the high efficiency of the first 16 workers.
Taking into consideration the above analysis, to break this three base cap we must introduce inefficiencies into the mining curve. The mining curve is a representation of the growth of an economy in SCII in relation to the number of workers a player has. In the current economic model, this is mostly linear, as an increase in workers will result in a predictable increase in mineral income so long as there is one available mineral node for about two workers. As discovered in our analysis of the mining cap, when two players have a similar number of workers, the income curve plateaus for both players regardless of base count.
Any disruption to the 16 workers per base linear income curve will break the three base cap in the current economic model. There are two ways to break the cap in HotS. The first way to break the cap is by disrupting the number of minerals available to either player during the course of a game. This is the current approach for LotV. The second way to break the cap is to introduce inefficiencies at the worker level. This is done by removing worker pairing thereby making each worker after the eighth on a mineral line return fewer minerals per trip on average. This introduces inefficiencies in the mining curve much earlier than simply disrupting the number of minerals available and has other implications which we will examine closely soon.
Inefficiencies through Mineral Disruption
The first way to break the mining cap as described above is to disrupt the mining curve by limiting the amount of minerals available to players during the game. This is the approach Blizzard chose to pursue in LotV. The first attempt made by Blizzard was to limit the amount of minerals available to a player at any given time (for example 1200 minerals on 8 nodes). The intention here was to force players to take an earlier fourth base due to the fact that the main base mined out fairly quickly compared to the current economic model seen in HotS.
However, the issue with this first attempt was that it served only to shorten the amount of time a player can spend on the mining curve plateau due to the smaller total amount of minerals. The actual mining cap we discovered earlier remains due to the linear progression of the mining curve and its associated income plateau. The approach was viewed negatively by the community following Blizzcon for exactly this reason. While it shortens the time spent on the plateau with three bases, the core mining curve and associated plateau was otherwise not disrupted.
A LotV Base Mining At Full Efficiency
The second attempt to disrupt the mining curve is the current mineral model in LotV. The mining curve is disrupted earlier on than the previous attempt by cutting half the mineral nodes in any given base by half. In LotV, there are four mineral nodes with 1500 minerals, and four with 750 mineral patches. I will refer to this as the Half Patch approach. The actual mining efficiency of each worker and worker pairing is not impacted by this change, and up until the half patches are fully mined out, the mining curve in LotV matches that of HotS. Just under seven minutes after taking any given base in LotV, the half patches will be fully mined out. Mining out of the half patches creates a timer which introduces inefficiencies into the mining curve and prevents the current HotS plateau.
Examining the Half-Patch Disruption Approach
Unfortunately, there are two flaws with this approach which should be noted here. The first flaw is that the mining rate and efficiency of workers in LotV does not change compared to HotS. The second is the timer that half patches put on players in LotV.
By not changing the mining rate and efficiency of workers in SCII, the theoretical plateau and mining cap remains, though it has shifted in a manner significantly different from the “three base cap”. Recall that we previously identified that the mining curve of SCII, due to worker pairing, caps out (plateaus) at three mining bases if we assume that both players have the same or similar worker count mining minerals. This cap exists because there are just about two workers for every available mineral node: 48-57 workers for 24 mineral nodes. This particular interaction between workers and minerals does not change in LotV. The only change is that to have access to 24 mineral nodes a player needs at a minimum four bases instead of three after the seven minute mark in LotV while having between 49 and 57 workers ready to mine minerals. Having access to 24 mineral nodes is therefore disrupted earlier than in the current HotS model, but does not actually change the cap.
In LotV, players are on a much quicker clock than they are in HotS to gain access to additional mineral nodes in order to maintain their current mining curve, and being unable to secure a third base in a timely manner disrupts the mineral curve before the three base cap is even a concern. In terms of gameplay, players lose a certain element of strategic diversity. While the denial of a third base has always been an option, prior to LotV Beta, the only way for a player to disrupt their opponent’s mining curve was to harass workers or deny an additional base for a very long time. The amount of time required to disturb the mining curve of your opponent in LotV by denying an expansion is shortened by 50% in comparison to HotS.
A LotV Base with the Half Patches Mined Out
While both players may be mining out the half patches in their main, the aggressor is in a much more advantageous position than the defender when one considers the impact that map control has on the ability to secure additional mineral nodes. In short, the half patch approach does more than impact the three base cap. It places a timer on all players that is effectively half the length it was in HotS to maintain their mining curve. If a player cannot maintain their mining curve while on one base their income drops by 50%.
Another concern associated with the half patch approach is how it limits some of the strategic diversity currently in StarCraft due to its impact on the mining curve. Players are not able to choose to play defensively for an extended period of time while teching prior to obtaining an expansion or building a large and powerful army while slowly expanding. I think it is important to understand that defensive play should remain viable in StarCraft. While it might not be entertaining to watch players sitting on just one, two, or three bases and not moving out, the strategy should remain viable, the strategic option should remain open in the name of strategic diversity. More importantly, if possible, the defending player should be encouraged to try some form of counter harassment while defending; this alone would make "turtle" games more interesting.
In StarCraft there is always a defender and an aggressor, and these roles are often defined by decisions related to economic investment, tech, and map control. Some strategies focus on obtaining particular army compositions, upgrades, or other tech breakpoints in order to shift from the defensive role to the offensive role. Depending on the strategy chosen, defensive play can last a few minutes or most of the game.
The half patch approach limits the time a player can afford to be defensive while reaching a particular breakpoint. While the exact influence this has had on the game will not be fully understood until LotV becomes well developed in its current form, one thing is certain: limiting the number of available minerals and disrupting the mineral curve of defensive strategies as sharply as half patches limits some of the strategic diversity in StarCraft II. While half patches may introduce new strategies, it also removes others. The goal of LotV should be to increase strategic diversity as a whole by adding more options while removing less.
This brings into question: is disrupting the number of minerals available an effective way of disrupting the mining plateau in SCII?
The True Culprit: Being Critical of the “Three Base Cap”
We must be critical of what we like to call the “three base mining cap”. While it is true that we have proven a three base mining cap exists in the example of Chris and Bob, we need to examine this more closely.
The three base mining cap in the fictional scenario of Chris and Bob is more accurately called a 24 node cap. This is due to the fact that three bases have 24 nodes, and access to 32 nodes (four bases) does not change the way the 24 node cap operates if both players have between 48 and 57 workers intended for mineral mining to put on these nodes. As demonstrated earlier, if Chris chooses to make enough workers to gain the full income from his fourth base, he will see a mining curve and plateau that is higher than Bob’s.
In this example, we can clearly see that the mining curve and plateau only grow based on the number of workers available as a ratio to the number of mineral nodes also available.
In a worker paired economy, equal workers on a similar mineral count will result in the same level of income
So long as the number of workers mining minerals for either player approximates a 2:1 ratio of workers to available nodes and they both have a similar worker numbers, the cap in SCII cannot be broken. When we think of the curve and associated plateau as the result of the ratio between available workers and available mining nodes, it quickly becomes clear that the mining plateau in StarCraft II is the result of the worker AI and worker pairing.
Breaking the Cap: Introducing Inefficiencies at the Worker Level
To truly break the mining cap in SCII, we need to introduce inefficiencies in mining at the worker level by eliminating workers pairing on mineral lines. When you remove worker pairing, workers become less efficient beginning with the 9th worker, as opposed to the 17th, and a non-linear mining curve is introduced to the game, as income remains consistent until a base completely mines out.
The current worker pairing economy in HotS and LotV has an optimal harvester to mineral node ratio of 2:1, while an economy without worker pairing has an optimal harvester to mineral node ratio of 1:1. What does this mean in a real game? If both players have the same number of workers mining minerals, the player who is able to approximate a 1:1 ratio of harvester to mineral node will have a higher mineral income than his opponent. Just how much more of an income is a function of total minerals being mined, total number of workers and exactly how the workers are split. How does this impact the “three base” or “24 mineral node cap”?
More expansions make more money in an economic system without worker pairing
We previously established that a 2:1 ratio results in an optimal available mineral node count of 24 for macro games in which both players want to maximize both income (66-75 workers) and army (125-134 army supply). In the current HotS mineral model, this translates to three bases, and in LotV it translates to three to four bases depending on quickly a player can secure these expansions. The base count for optimal mineral income without worker pairing from a purely theoretical standpoint using the same numbers as in the above example doubles to six bases containing eight mineral nodes with 1500 minerals each.
Breaking the Worker Pair: A Simple Example
When we discussed how worker pairing works, we discovered the “check, wait, harvest” cycle. We determined that two workers have almost perfectly synchronized cycles due to worker AI and the travel time between mineral nodes and town halls for all three races. Without the ability to change harvester AI, we cannot manually adjust the “check” or “wait” parts of the cycle. Instead we examined various ways to adjust the harvest cycle through the map editor.
The first approach was to change the amount of time a worker spends at a mineral patch mining and how many minerals they collect while harvesting. While we tried a few different mods and extensions created by others in the past, we decided to try something simple first. We created an extension mod for HotS in which workers spent twice as long at a mineral patch (about 5.5 seconds as opposed to 2.7 seconds) and returned twice as many minerals (10 per trip as opposed to 5). I will refer to this as the Double Mining Model. In this model, bases use the mineral model of HotS, eight mineral patches with 1500 minerals each and 6 starting workers. The resulting mining curve for 16 workers is shown in the image below.
Mineral Income Curve for Double Mining
In this very simple model the first 8 workers mine at a rate of almost 60 minerals a minute compared to the 42 minerals a minute of the first 16 workers in HotS. The 9th worker only returns 57 minerals a minute and the 16th worker returns 48 minerals a minute. This encourages players to Maynarde their workers from the main to the natural as soon as possible. In a situation where two players have 16 workers, the player who keeps all 16 on one mineral line will have an income of 775 minerals a minute while the player who expands to two bases and splits his workers to have 8 on each mineral line will have an income of 953 minerals a minute. That is an increase of 20% for taking a natural base.
In the above example, we can see how players can be greatly rewarded for expanding as opposed to turtling. Each expansion will increase the income of the expanding player relative to their opponent even if they have the same number of workers. The 1:1 ratio effectively removes 24 mineral node cap and it becomes a 48 node cap, which is almost impossible to reach.
Keep in mind when you are thinking about the new 8 worker max efficiency model, having 16 workers on 8 patches will still provide more income than 8 workers. It just doesn't provide DOUBLE the income for double the workers as in HotS.
Examining the Double Mining Approach
The Good
Similar to how we closely examined the approach implemented by Blizzard, we need to examine the double mining approach as well. Since we are able to impact the mining curve through worker inefficiencies, we no longer need to change mineral patches in order to impact the mining curve. This means we can return to having 8 mineral patches with 1500 minerals each and 6 starting workers.
The increased income from the initial 6 workers speeds up the early game by a few supply (for example 8 pylon/depot/overlord, and earlier production facilities) without completely eliminating the extreme early game. Overlords and scouting workers have more time to reach the opponent’s base before the early build is fully developed compared to the current LotV economy. The earlier income also makes proxy builds slightly weaker (especially in mirror matchups) without effectively eliminating them as currently seems to be the case in LotV with a 12 worker start.
Perhaps the best outcome of the double mining approach is the fact that instead of punishing players for not expanding, it rewards players for expanding. This increases strategic diversity in the game of StarCraft overall. Players are no longer on a harsh, in-game timer to obtain expansions.
Expanding should be a strategic choice, not a requirement
As mentioned in the half-patch section, strategic options should not be eliminated but instead expanded upon. In a no worker pairing model, the choice to expand is influenced by the player’s chosen strategy and the actions of their opponent. Choosing to play an ultra-defensive mech style similar to HotS is once more an option. In addition, while we've managed to retain ultra-defensive strategies by returning to a Full Base Mineral Model, we have also simultaneously provided more options to the player who faces ultra-defensive strategies.
Unlike in HotS, the no worker pairing model provides better income to players who are able to achieve a 1:1 worker to mineral node ratio. Due to greater mineral income from spreading workers across bases, players are rewarded greatly for being able to expand and saturate new bases. Recall how in HotS players would have had to sacrifice army supply to have an economic advantage against ultra-defensive opponents. In the double mining model, players do not have to sacrifice army supply to obtain a larger economy. Instead they only need to out expand their opponent and spread their workers across the map.
An ultra-defensive HotS strategy that does not harass its opponent mining on 24 mineral nodes will have to trade against an opponent’s equal supply army who has double the mineral income since they have full map control and up to 6 bases (the new 48 mineral node cap). The six base player has more of the map to base trade against, a stronger core army than in HotS and 25% more mineral income as well as double the available gas geysers. Ultra defensive strategies therefore, while still viable, will need to consider the power of their opponents economy and production, and will probably have to do more than tech to 3/3 and 200/200 army supply to win the game.
This increases strategic diversity. Instead of limiting the number of strategies a player can import from HotS or WoL, we instead provide players with more options for counter play. The player who is expanding aggressively needs to spread their workers, and needs to control much more of the map as they do so. The closer to a 1:1 worker to mineral node ratio a player has the greater their income is due to worker efficiency making each worker more impactful. By spreading workers out across their various bases, the expanding player provides more opportunities for their opponent to harass, increasing action across the map.
While expanding rewards a player with more income, staying on fewer bases makes harass easier to defend. In the HotS mining model, losing 8 workers at a base with 16 workers results in 50% less income for that base until a player is able to resaturate. In the double mining model losing 8 workers of 16 is less damaging due to the lower efficiency of the second eight compared to the first eight workers. Instead losing 50% of your income, you lose only 40% of your total income. While this might not be the biggest difference, keeping 60% of your income after losing half a mineral line could increase the chance of a comeback.
The Bad
While there are a lot of positives to double mining as a result of the reduction of worker pairing, there are also a few negatives as well. The first is the higher income overall of a saturated base in the double mining vs the current economic model. Bases in the double mining model result in an additional 15% mineral income compared to their counterparts in the current economic model at the 16 worker count and only normalize at the 24 worker count on a single mineral line. This has far reaching implications for balance with regards to unit costs, the mineral to gas ratio, and overall pace of the game.
The overall mining curve is much sharper and could be far too severe an income rise for one base. Ideally, you would want to find an economic model which closely approximates the current mining model in SCII (2:1 ratio mining curve) at both the 16 and 24 worker breakpoints, while still providing a higher income at the 8 worker count (1:1 model provides more income workers 1 - 8 compared to 2:1 model). This would preserve income ratios for players who are playing more defensively, encouraging rapidly expanding players to invest a few more resources into gas mining as they spread out across the map to turn their economic mineral advantage back into a tech advantage. A similar income on three base means we can evaluate the impact of a fourth or fifth base by comparing the new model to an existing model with five years of gameplay and balance behind it.
Mineral Income Curve for Double Mining Might be Too High
Another large problem is associated with the increase of mining time. When a worker takes twice as long to complete their harvesting action, stopping this action prematurely results in a huge hit to the economy. Instead of missing out on 5 minerals from interrupting a 2.7 second harvest cycle in the current economic model a player who pulls their workers will lose 10 minerals from interrupting a 5.4 second harvest cycle. I want to thank Artosis for pointing this out as a huge downside to the double mining model. He made reference to the impact that pulling workers in PvP against a one gate proxy would have and how large an advantage the proxying Protoss player would gain. Similarly, he made reference to kind of advantage one could gain in BW ZvZ when forcing the early workers to pull off the mineral line. This mining model makes worker pulling extremely costly for the player who is defending and puts the aggressive player in a large advantage. Exactly how detrimental this would be in a real game scenario is hard to predict.
Zerg in particular may become problematic with such a high mineral income since they are the race with a 300 mineral cost hatchery which also doubles as a production facility. The larva inject mechanic is the only concerning race specific mechanic in this new economic model. Inject may or may not result in an extremely quickly growing economy which could get out of hand. More than just an issue for XvZ matchups, the ability to turn the economic advantage into a severely large army advantage could be problematic for a defender. This requires exploration in game and can only be fully understood with many games played using a new economic model. So the issue of unit balance, and race balance, while important to mention, is not important when examining any economic model that removes worker pairing. Numbers can change later, the core design of the economy and its impact on strategic diversity is more important than discussions on unit or racial balance.
In short, the double mining model may be a touch too extreme. The increased early mineral income may be too sharp, the increased overall mineral income and higher mining curve may be too extreme, and forcing workers to pull off a mineral line could be far too powerful. The positives however associated with increases strategic diversity and options for players justify an exploration of removing worker pairing in SCII and bringing the perfect mining efficiency ratio down from 2:1 to 1:1. We decided to explore a variation of the double mining model and found what may be a perfect compromise. The alternative non-pairing worker model still achieves the same goals as double mining, but softens the associated negative blows.
The Double Harvest Economic Model
In a number of economic model trials we tested and analysed, we found that the best way to approach no worker pairing is likely the Double Harvest model. We borrowed the basic concept for the Double Harvest model from BlackLilium and Uvantak. In the model presented by these two individuals workers complete three harvest actions instead of one in every trip to the mineral line. We found that similar to the Double Mining model, the mining curve may have been too high, and the return of 15 minerals instead of 5 may be too punishing due to the potentially high number of lost minerals on worker death in scenarios of harassment.
The model we would like to see as a trial in the LotV Beta is the Double Harvest model. The Double Harvest model is a simple and elegant solution to the negatives seen in the double mining model while still rewarding expansion based gameplay (as opposed to punishing players who do not expand). The Double Harvest model removes worker pairing by abusing the existing AI of workers in SCII. The “check, wait, harvest” cycle remains the same as it currently exists, with workers arriving at a mineral patch, checking to see if it is free, waiting, and then harvesting 5 minerals. What the Double Harvest model does however is it forces workers to complete two harvest cycles before returning to the Town Hall building to return 10 minerals instead of 5.
A Single Worker Harvest Trip in the Double Harvest Model
This eliminates worker pairing by forcing harvesters to mine from more than one mineral node before returning home with 10 minerals as the number of harvesters on a mineral line goes up. For example, when a probe gets to a mineral patch, they will wait for the first worker to complete the first harvest cycle and then discover that it is actually not free, forcing them to move on. This removes worker pairing and due to 10 mineral returns increases the initial income.
A full mining base of 16 workers in the Double Harvest Model
The mining curve in the Double Harvest Model is not quite as steep as in the Double Mining model for the first eight workers but is still high enough to retain the faster pace of a quicker opening build order. The overall mining curve is also very close to that of the current SCII model as the worker accounts rise and reach the 16 and 24 worker breakpoints on each base. As you will notice in the mineral curve comparison image below, Double Harvest mines about 5% more than the existing model when players have 16 workers on a base.
The Double Harvest mining curve compared to the HotS, worker pairing mining curve on one base with 16 workers
The Double Harvest model does more than just impact the early game mineral income curve. It also results in players being greatly rewarded for expansion based gameplay by removing the 2:1 cap found in the current SCII economy. Starting with the natural expansion, players who manage their worker spread will see a minimum of 24% more income than their one base opponent assuming an even worker count. By removing worker pairing, and eliminating the 2:1 worker cap, even just a natural expansion makes a huge difference in mineral income.
Players with a natural will have far more income than those who do not at even just 16 workers
Shown in the image above, the income of 2 bases with split workers on minerals in Double Harvest is also far higher than in HotS. Players who believe their opponent is doing a one base all in have the option to cut workers early, and invest the greater economy on same worker count into defense. In a Half-Patch economy where the 2:1 worker ratio remains the expanding player's income is only greater once the natural begins to saturate more fully, meaning they must not only invest in a natural expansion but also workers to see a higher income.
In a Double Harvest economy players are given the choice to cut workers when defending aggressive actions with greater income on similar worker counts thanks to the removal of the 2:1 income ratio. The timer placed on the one base player is no longer set by Half-Patches which will mine out if an attack fails. The timer is instead controlled by the player with the expansion. Every minute the natural base is mining, the greater the mineral based defense becomes and the less time the attacker has to equalize the game with either harass or an attack.
Overall however, as worker counts rise and players obtain 16 workers their income rates begin to stabilise and these income rates become close to those seen in HotS. Maintaining a similar feel to the economy as players approach a HotS like mid game is extremely important. Blizzard stated in the LotV beta 1.0 notes that: "The main goal here was to make a change that would keep the feel of resourcing rates similar to Heart of the Swarm ...". The Double Harvest model approximates this on one, two and three bases with 16 workers on each mineral line. The image below shows income on two bases with 32 workers comparing Double Harvest and the current Worker Pairing model.
Two bases with 32 workers in Double Harvest compared to Worker Pairing (Standard)
But how does the Double Harvest model look when we take two players with 48 workers on even greater base counts? As we established previously due to lack of worker pairing, players with more mineral nodes available to them will have a higher mineral income than their opponent. The image below shows mineral income per minute for a player who spreads their workers with three, four, or five bases. On all base counts, the player has 48 workers mining minerals which represents 16 workers on three mineral lines. The four base player has 7% more income than the three base player. The five base player has 20% more income than the three base player. As you can see, the mining cap has been removed and base scaling has increased significantly when similar worker counts.
Relative income on 3, 4 and 5 bases with Double Harvesting and HotS and 48 mineral workers
By removing worker pairing, and unlocking the 2:1 ratio, the Double Harvesting model encourages players to expand through a reward based system, as opposed to a punishment based system. The more bases one player has over another on similar worker counts results in higher income. The option to out expand your opponent in order to obtain an income advantage truly returns. Players can obtain higher income without sacrificing army supply simply by expanding more and splitting their workers evenly between all of the bases. This increased army supply can then be invested into harass units, core army units, or used alongside increased income to trade (even inefficiently) with the opponents army and forcing them to starve out. The more money and available supply a player has the more options become available to them, and the greater strategic diversity.
In the image below, you will see the difference in mineral income per minute between four different scenarios. The first scenario is HotS (purple) where players have achieved the 2:1 cap with 48 workers and 24 secured at least 24 mineral nodes. No matter how many bases, unless a player makes more than 48 workers the mineral income will not change. The last three scenarios are Double Harvesting on various base counts with 48 workers. The 3 base income in Double Harvesting (Blue) approximates that of HotS. The 4 base player (red) gains a slight advantage over the 3 base player in mineral income as well as additional gas geysers being available. In HotS many would take a 4th base only for the gas, now we can see however that you also gain a mineral advantage. The Five base player (green) has a significant income advantage to the three base player in both the HotS and Double Harvest models.
HotS Income alongside the Double Harvesting Income on 3, 4 and 5 bases with 48 workers
The biggest impact of the Double Harvest model (other than removing worker pairing) may come from the way workers would now interact with harass-based play. Pulling early workers is far less dangerous in Double Harvest when compared to both Double Mining and Brood War (ZvZ early drone pulls often put the defender in a very poor position). The reason for this is that workers mine 5 minerals in a 2.7 second harvest, and then put those first 5 minerals in what is best described as a "basket". They then complete a second harvest cycle and with a full 10 mineral basket, they return the full load to the town hall building. Pulling workers instead in this model interrupts only one of the two harvest cycles as opposed to interrupting a full 5.4 seconds harvest cycle in the Double Mining model reducing the impact of pulling workers and resetting the harvest cycle in the early game.
The basket system has almost no negative interaction with harass. Losing a worker with 5 minerals does result in the permanent loss of those 5 minerals. but his is no different from the worker losing their 5 minerals when returning to the town hall in the current economic model in SCII. The visual cue that a worker is carrying 10 minerals is the mineral package all workers carry when returning home. Due to the fact that there is no visual cue for workers who are carrying 5 minerals in their basket, incentivizes a player using a single target harassment unit (banshees, oracles etc) to focus their efforts on killing workers returning mineral packages, thereby removing 10 minerals from their opponent’s income and a worker instead of just five. This is a small interaction that may not make a difference to most players, but may show a larger skill discrepancy at higher levels of play.
The biggest downside from an implementation standpoint for the Double Harvest model is how visually clear it is or is not. I do not have the skills to create a visual cue for when a worker has a 5 mineral basket. Perhaps some small blue outline could surround the workers, a slight glow, or a small mineral package model could be used to visually represent that the worker has a mined 5 as opposed to 10 minerals.
Comparison of the Three Models. The sharpness in the Double Mining model is attenuated by Double Harvest, and 16 worker economies are close to normalized between Double Harvest and HotS maintaining Mineral to Gas income ratios
The overall mineral income increase in the Double Harvest model results in bases mining out a little sooner than in HotS. This is in line with the approach Blizzard has taken in LotV in trying to steer players away from turtling for too long. While we do not want to punish players for not expanding in our model by disrupting the mining curve too soon, a small change to the length of time a player can play ultra-defensively is not inherently a bad thing and may still be something to be explored.
We also collected data for relative mine-out times in both the standard and Double Harvest models with various mineral counts on each mineral node. The increased mineral income translates into each base fully mining out about one HotS minute (40 LotV seconds) sooner than in the standard mining model with 16 workers on a mineral line. If this is still perceived as being too slow, dropping the total mineral count to 1400 minerals may be a good compromise. With 1400 minerals on each node bases will mine out in 2:10 HotS minutes sooner (1:30 LotV adjusted time sooner). We believe it might be worth trying at 1500 minerals but starting with 1400 wouldn’t be the worst. It still provides players with far more time than they currently have in LotV to plan their expansions, tech and execute effectively. Of course, any slow expansion based play may still be punished by the opponent obtaining a large economic lead, necessitating some form of harass or timing from the defensive player (or an extremely cost efficient army).
Double Harvest Mine out times vs. Standard Mining (HotS) assuming 6 worker start in the main base at 1500 and 1400 mineral count nodes
Summary and Conclusion
In this article, we examined the current economic model of StarCraft II and the myth of the three base cap. We determined that the three base cap exists as a by-product of optimal army vs worker supplies and worker AI which results in Worker Pairing. Worker pairing in SCII means that the optimal mineral income is found at a 2 worker to 1 mineral node ratio, and that as long as both players have similar worker counts, and both approach a 2:1 ratio, the number of bases a player has are irrelevant in relation to mineral income. By removing worker pairing we are able to move the optimal income ratio to 1:1, which greatly rewards players for expanding.
The current economic model of LotV does not address the 2:1 ratio. The side effect of the LotV economy is that it punishes players for not expanding and places them on a clock to obtain additional mineral nodes roughly six minutes (LotV time) after establishing a base in order to not lose mineral income. By keeping worker pairing, the theoretical 24 mineral node cap (24 nodes coincide with three bases in HotS) does not go away. Half patches alongside 12 worker start do, however, limit some of the strategic diversity we currently see in HotS. The goal in LotV should be to further increase strategic diversity by adding options while removing as few as possible. This goal is better served through the removal of worker pairing as opposed to introducing half patches and 12 worker starts.
*click to view in full resolution* Summary image of the Double Harvest Model
By increasing the efficiency and overall income of the first 8 workers, we can return to a 6 worker start with build orders which develop more quickly than their HotS counterparts. This not only preserves some of the extreme early game and Protoss proxy strategies, but it also provides players with more time to scout their opponent’s build order before they fully develop themselves.
The loss of pairing results in achieving the goal of removing the 24 mineral node cap. The Double Harvest model in particular rewards expansion based play while retaining the strategic choice to expand more slowly. It also creates the requirement to slow down the opponent’s economy via harassment so as not to be outpaced, creating more action on the map. Spreading workers and properly managing one’s own economy (while also considering the economy of the opponent) becomes far more important.
Over-making workers with too few minerals to support them is far more punishing than it is in HotS. The notion of “over droning” typically felt by Zergs becomes a concern for Terrans and Protoss as well since investing too many minerals into workers on too few bases results in a much smaller army, opening a timing for the opponent. Scouting the economic choices of your opponent becomes just as important as making economic decisions for yourself. If they far outpace you in expansions, you must either slow them down or build an extremely cost efficient army.
Most importantly, players are rewarded for expanding instead of being punished for not. Without cutting much of the existing strategic options we currently see in SCII and adding far more interactions with a better scaling economy, strategic diversity can only grow.
With that said, thanks for this! I am still reading it for any new analysis on the matter. Hopefully Blizzard will listen and not take the easy way out.
I really hope people take the time to read this entire article. In it I break down the HotS economy, the LotV economy, and I provide what is truly more "BW-like" an economy that the TL strat team would love to see at least get a chance in LotV Beta.
Its a long beta.
Give other economic models a chance. Player influenced expansion based gameplay is we believe, a far better approach than time influenced expansion based gameplay.
Thanks for reading this huge thing, we spent a LOT of time on.
With that said, thanks for this! I am still reading it for any new analysis on the matter. Hopefully Blizzard will listen and not take the easy way out.
I think the major difference between those articles and ours is that the game is understood much better (particularly compared to Lalush), and we analyze different models a little more than Barrin's. It's also closer to an actual scientific paper, compared to anything that's been done before.
This is the first time Blizzard has shown they are willing to tinker with the game's economy, so we figured if there ever was a time to do an "official" article like this as TL staff, this is it. As Zero said, it's a long beta, and we hope this means different economies will be tested.
Wow you guys didn't lied when you said that it would be a long article, pretty much this is what I wanted to do with my little Worker Pairing thread. I'm still reading, but I have special interest on your take on double haversting, lets see how these curves behave!
This is an amazingly researched and written article. This is how you get a point across, with plain language, hard numbers, and sound reasoning. (I hope TheDWF takes notes from this!)
After reading the ENTIRE article, I'm convinced the Double Harvest method is worth trying. As a player who enjoys playing a slower and more defensive style, I'm just not a huge fan of the current LotV model. I would really love if we can get all this in Blizzard's hands and ask them to seriously consider it.
On April 12 2015 06:31 Killmouse wrote: hope blizzard will read that, amazing work by u guys!
Blizzard might read it, but they will never consider putting it into the game, I bet you.
What an extremely shitty and negative attitude. Blizzard is showing now more than EVER that they are willing to make huge changes to make SC2 great. Comments like this are useless and do nothing but showcase your own bitterness.
On April 12 2015 05:58 ZeromuS wrote: I really hope people take the time to read this entire article. In it I break down the HotS economy, the LotV economy, and I provide what is truly more "BW-like" an economy that the TL strat team would love to see at least get a chance in LotV Beta.
Its a long beta.
Give other economic models a chance. Player influenced expansion based gameplay is we believe, a far better approach than time influenced expansion based gameplay.
Thanks for reading this huge thing, we spent a LOT of time on.
Be happy if 5% of people bother reading all of it honestly x_x
On April 12 2015 05:58 ZeromuS wrote: I really hope people take the time to read this entire article. In it I break down the HotS economy, the LotV economy, and I provide what is truly more "BW-like" an economy that the TL strat team would love to see at least get a chance in LotV Beta.
Its a long beta.
Give other economic models a chance. Player influenced expansion based gameplay is we believe, a far better approach than time influenced expansion based gameplay.
Thanks for reading this huge thing, we spent a LOT of time on.
Be happy if 5% of people bother reading all of it honestly x_x
As long as that 5% includes those at Blizzard with the power to make changes, that's plenty.
On April 12 2015 05:58 ZeromuS wrote: I really hope people take the time to read this entire article. In it I break down the HotS economy, the LotV economy, and I provide what is truly more "BW-like" an economy that the TL strat team would love to see at least get a chance in LotV Beta.
Its a long beta.
Give other economic models a chance. Player influenced expansion based gameplay is we believe, a far better approach than time influenced expansion based gameplay.
Thanks for reading this huge thing, we spent a LOT of time on.
Be happy if 5% of people bother reading all of it honestly x_x
I am okay with that. If the ideas get out there, and begin to spread thats the important part.
The double harvest method just seems... "unnatural"
Just curious, what kind of impact would it have if all expansions (after natural) were gold? (6 patch). Worker pairing would mean you'd get optimal harvesting at 12 instead of 16 so your 4 base model would be 51 on minerals (24 on gas). 16+16+12+7 would be better? (perhaps the gold mineral return per trip and overall resources per gold patch could be modified as needed)
On April 12 2015 06:54 varsovie wrote: I'll read that tonight, got a boner just looking the number of graph and GIF. (although there's a distinct lack of pie chart)
On April 12 2015 06:51 y0su wrote: The double harvest method just seems... "unnatural"
Just curious, what kind of impact would it have if all expansions (after natural) were gold? (6 patch). Worker pairing would mean you'd get optimal harvesting at 12 instead of 16 so your 4 base model would be 51 on minerals (24 on gas). 16+16+12+7 would be better? (perhaps the gold mineral return per trip and overall resources per gold patch could be modified as needed)
edit:maths fail
You want to try and have income match the existing sc2 income as much as possible as the number of workers stabilise in both income models.
6 gold income is probably too much on too few workers, and its going to throw mineral:gas ratios out of whack.
The other issue is it doesn't fundamentally attack the 2:1 worker ration in SC2.
Sure you can have more bases but you effectively have the same issue. There is some optimal count of mineral patches to probes in a 2:1 ratio. So maybe instead of 3 bases, you cap out at 4.
In the end you want to remove the cap as much as possible, so that players cannot just sit on some "optimal" base count.
This is the same reason the 6 patch 1 gas FRB approach from before won't work. You cap out at 24 mineral patches if you want less than 80+ workers. If you plan to make between 65 and 75 workers there is ZERO benefit to ever having more than 24 mineral patches available to you at any given time in game. Ever.
If you remove pairing, then the theoretical cap is 48 mineral patches. The theoretical cap for mineral income goes from 3 bases to 6. When the "im gonna sit and turtle up and have the same income as you" number of bases is 6 instead of 3, then pure turtling gets very very hard.
A truly great article. Best I've read on TL. It comes at a time when we most need it. Thank you so much for writing it! Blizzard do the right thing for the benefit for everyone.
Great read (the parts I did read). I skimmed the last sections, but the initial writeup on how the economy works was great, but I feel a credit to Uvantak could have been due here as well, and not just in the double worker model section. I feel like I have read the writeup before in Uvantak's thread. Not that this is a bad thing, I just feel like credit is due. Please arrest me if I'm wrong!
Regarding some of the graphs you display:
Graphs are great to visualize, but altering the scales of the axis to prove a point works well in advertisements and tabloid press, but in a serious article like this is I think it's better to keep the scales as is so one can see the information as-is. Take this spoilered graph as the prime example:
Also note the fact that you use the word "relative" while also altering the axis. The bars are not at all relative to the numbers they represent, and in my humble opinion they are misleading. I don't think you need to present your detailed and through research in such a way to get your point across to your audience. After all, no one reads that far into the article without being genuinely interested.
Nowhere in the article do we claim that 4base income is 3 times higher than 3base or whatever...the bars are in fact relative to 2142 and 2235 respectively, the y axis just so happens to start from 2100 instead of 0 because, well, what you want to look at isn't two bigass bars that are slightly different from each other, you want to see exactly how different they are. I just don't understand how that could possibly be misleading.
Not to mention, altering the scale on an axis to illustrate a point better is in fact extremely common in scientific papers. Ever heard of a log/log plane?
I really enjoyed this article, I only hope that it does get tested by Blizzard. Double harvesting seems like it may have real promise compared to the clumsy and awkward change currently seen in LotV.
On April 12 2015 07:19 KelsierSC wrote: I like the graphs and stuff
is there a TLDRversion?
ZeromuS' comment on the reddit thread:
Hey Everyone. If you have any questions I will do my best to answer.
It is really long.
So if Reddit wants a TL;DR:
SC2 worker pairing creates what most people will call a three base cap. Removing worker pairing is the best way forward. It can be done a lot of ways, Double Harvest is described in the article, its in our opinion the best approach.
LotV limits minerals punishing players for not expanding, created time influenced expansion timings and this has repurcussions for strategic depth.
We would rather see player influenced expansion timing and no worker pairing makes expansions give you more income (since no 3 base cap) and more strategic depth.
Still encourage you to read it all! There is a LOT of detail in our analysis
Also: if you LIKE our ideas. We need to band together and pressure blizz to consider this.
Honestly, we would love to see something different tried in the beta. And if it turns out it really is terrible and CANNOT work thats fine. We just want to see it tried.
On April 12 2015 07:14 Teoita wrote: Nowhere in the article do we claim that 4base income is 3 times higher than 3base or whatever...the bars are in fact relative to 2142 and 2235 respectively, the y axis just so happens to start from 2100 instead of 0 because, well,
Not to mention, altering the scale on an axis to illustrate a point better is in fact extremely common in scientific papers. Ever heard of a log/log plane?
Yeah sure, I know what you did and why you did it. And Yes log-log planes are great, but they serve a somewhat different purpose, but maybe not that big after all.
what you want to look at isn't two bigass bars that are slightly different from each other, you want to see exactly how different they are. I just don't understand how that could possibly be misleading.
Well everyone knows that 2142 < 2235, and most people also quite fast work out that 2235 - 2142 ≈ 100. I just feel like blowing a 100/2200 ≈ 5% difference up to the point where it looks like it is more than 200% is over-doing it a tad. I understand your view and respect it, I just wanted to voice my opinion.
No offense intended, I have to admit you seemed a bit offended in your post. You should be proud of your work and I'm grateful that you took your time to write the article. Again, thanks
I seriously have no idea what you are talking about still (you aren't going to see a 5% difference very clearly if you keep the entire column in the graph, excel even does that automatically), but whatever, you are welcome.
Then maybe a bar-graph (if that's the term) isn't the ideal way to display the data, if the difference is small yet sufficient? I don't know.
I'm honestly a bit sad that you are so careless about my feedback and so easily just disregard it. No, I don't expect you to change everything to make me happy, but I expect a serious and nice answer when I first get one.
On April 12 2015 07:28 hewo wrote: Then maybe a bar-graph (if that's the term) isn't the ideal way to display the data, if the difference is small yet sufficient? I don't know.
I'm honestly a bit sad that you are so careless about my feedback and so easily just disregard it. No, I don't expect you to change everything to make me happy, but I expect a serious and nice answer when I first get one.
You have to understand the intention behind the graph before jumping on the data manipulation train. The point was that there is a quantifiable difference which you would be otherwise unable to see without the zoom.
On April 12 2015 07:28 hewo wrote: Then maybe a bar-graph (if that's the term) isn't the ideal way to display the data, if the difference is small yet sufficient? I don't know.
I'm honestly a bit sad that you are so careless about my feedback and so easily just disregard it. No, I don't expect you to change everything to make me happy, but I expect a serious and nice answer when I first get one.
You have to understand the intention behind the graph before jumping on the data manipulation train. The point was that there is a quantifiable difference which you would be otherwise unable to see without the zoom.
I hoped I made it clear in my first post that I do understand the intention, and I acknowledge that the way the data is displayed is legitimate and correct per se, I just feel like it was a little too much, that is all. One could easily zoom in without making the difference >100%.
It's just a minor thing and nothing important, I just keep posting because I feel like I'm getting misunderstood, and I want to try and get across as I first intended.
Edit; And to clarify further: I don't blame anyone but myself for the misunderstanding.
Double mining sounds worth a try, but I'm still interested in seeing some tweaks with the half-patch approach.
For instance, we could have half patch/double patch, with 750 in some patches and 3000 in others. Which would actually increase total minerals per base while causing saturation to slowly decrease. That would make not expanding more viable (you'd still be "punished" instead of "rewarded" but that's a stupid distinction since it's a zero-sum game).
whenever I see stuff like this I wonder if they are trying to make the game "better" or are they trying to make it "brood war". I still really enjoy watching Starcraft 2 and the beta looks really cool from what i've seen.
On April 12 2015 07:36 Teoita wrote: The whole point is that the raw difference, about 100 minerals per minute, is the same no matter what the zoom out is...
But isn't the point of a graph is to visualize the data, which, as you say, is the same no matter the zoom? How the data comes across through the visualization, however, changes greatly based on the zoom level, right? I'm asking out of actual curiosity and not to be cocky...
I'm not gonna state again that I do understand what you are doing and why. I am yet to get confirmation that you understand what I mean, though. Do you? Am I making sense? :s
I didn't think this would be such a big deal to me but alas...
The first graph under the section "The Impact of the Current Mineral Efficiency Model in SCII" should make a clearer distinction between the 1 base and 2 base scenarios. Specifically, the 2 base 16 workers should note that the 16 workers are spread evenly across the 2 available bases, as was done in the graph that follows it immediately.
"Maynarde" (under the double mining graph) should be "Maynard", without the extra e at the end.
I would suggest an in-game visual aid for understanding the worker paired economy: "In a worker paired economy, equal workers on a similar mineral count will result in the same level of income"... the picture shows the number of bases alongside a picture of a probe and 2 mineral nodes, but should make note of the fact that having paired workers spread through 24 mineral nodes provides the same income as non-paired workers spread through 48 mineral nodes (any in-between cases are less important to illustrate the point).
===
While the focus of this article appears to be on resource collection rates, I should mention an additional consequence of reduced-efficiency models in the de-valuing of workers that operate below 100% efficiency. That is to say, in the case of having 16 workers on 8 mineral nodes, if all workers after the 8th work at below 100% efficiency, the impact of losing those additional (#9~16) workers within a single mining base is dampened. This would require additional considerations on the value of worker harassment, as well as the ability of players "behind" on workers to make comebacks, due to the reduced benefits of having a stronger worker force while on a similar number of bases. It provides a possible approach for slowing the snowball effect of economic discrepancies: making the greatest use of additional workers requires taking more bases, with the resulting increases in vulnerability, giving players who are behind in worker count ways to come back. The player with more workers can also choose not to expand as much, resulting in a safer but smaller advantage. Considerations for race, personal style, and map architecture are thus in play as well.
On April 12 2015 07:36 Teoita wrote: The whole point is that the raw difference, about 100 minerals per minute, is the same no matter what the zoom out is...
But isn't the point of a graph is to visualize the data, which, as you say, is the same no matter the zoom? How the data comes across through the visualization, however, changes greatly based on the zoom level, right? I'm asking out of actual curiosity and not to be cocky...
I'm not gonna state again that I do understand what you are doing and why. I am yet to get confirmation that you understand what I mean, though. Do you? Am I making sense? :s
I didn't think this would be such a big deal to me but alas...
I made the graph.
To make a line graph is unneccesary. I am trying to simply reinforce the text above it with an image. It is presented in the context of the text, not standalone.
I agree that the zoomin may look disproportionate, for this reason i decided to add the data labels to the bars.
I agree that on its own if you completely ignore the Y axis it looks skewed. I agree if you ignore the text time image is easy to take out of context.
There is however no better way to show two different numbers one compared to another than through a bar chart.
So, lets say i do a pie chart - thats not helpful at all. The area graph is also not helpful nor is a line graph because i am not showing a trend, i am simply showing a state - a single period of time.
Due to the fact that the graphs are so similar in height with a large Y axis, you wouldn't see it very well.
If i was comparing multiple base worker counts over time as a comparison over time i would have used either a bar graph with 2 bars, or I would have used an area graph.
the bar chart is the best way to show this visually. And i tried to deal with the zoom in disproportionate presentations through 1) data labels 2) the text surrounding the image.
I felt it was perfectly fine, in context to use this image. So I did. Hope that answers your questions.
While the focus of this article appears to be on resource collection rates, I should mention an additional consequence of reduced-efficiency models in the de-valuing of workers that operate below 100% efficiency. That is to say, in the case of having 16 workers on 8 mineral nodes, if all workers after the 8th work at below 100% efficiency, the impact of losing those additional (#9~16) workers within a single mining base is dampened. This would require additional considerations on the value of worker harassment, as well as the ability of players "behind" on workers to make comebacks, due to the reduced benefits of having a stronger worker force while on a similar number of bases. It provides a possible approach for slowing the snowball effect of economic discrepancies: making the greatest use of additional workers requires taking more bases, with the resulting increases in vulnerability, giving players who are behind in worker count ways to come back. The player with more workers can also choose not to expand as much, resulting in a safer but smaller advantage. Considerations for race, personal style, and map architecture are thus in play as well.
I believe I do discuss this point at some point, or at least the devaluing of workers and greater comeback potential as well.
On April 12 2015 07:43 Teoita wrote: The point of that graph is to show that there is a difference, not that it's massive (it isn't, hence the rest of the article)
You keep repeating yourself, as if you just want me to shut up...?
I'm disappointed that, considering the time spent in the article, you are reluctant to take 3 minutes of your time to give me a serious reply that answers my questions/points.
As I have said I'm not expecting you to polish my shoes or whatever, I just want a replay that actually takes what I say into account and gives me a satisfying answer.
Edit: I guess the post abov is what I'm after, thanks will read now
On April 12 2015 05:58 ZeromuS wrote: I really hope people take the time to read this entire article. In it I break down the HotS economy, the LotV economy, and I provide what is truly more "BW-like" an economy that the TL strat team would love to see at least get a chance in LotV Beta.
Its a long beta.
Give other economic models a chance. Player influenced expansion based gameplay is we believe, a far better approach than time influenced expansion based gameplay.
Thanks for reading this huge thing, we spent a LOT of time on.
by this you are referring to the premise of adding more and more bases to gain an economic meaningful advantage whereas in HotS after 3 bases it doesnt really matter correct, maybe you did say this in the article, I only skimmed it, but how exactly do we go about incorporating that in SC2? I ask this not because I am necessarily choosing one system over another but because, as you have mentioned it is a long beta. Making extreme changes will lead to the best result not simple number changes...or else we get the infestor fiasco from hots beta (we makin fungal range 9, next week nope that was too weak lets make it 10, nope thats too weak lets make it 11, nope thats too weak lets make it 10 etc)
On April 12 2015 05:58 ZeromuS wrote: I really hope people take the time to read this entire article. In it I break down the HotS economy, the LotV economy, and I provide what is truly more "BW-like" an economy that the TL strat team would love to see at least get a chance in LotV Beta.
Its a long beta.
Give other economic models a chance. Player influenced expansion based gameplay is we believe, a far better approach than time influenced expansion based gameplay.
Thanks for reading this huge thing, we spent a LOT of time on.
by this you are referring to the premise of adding more and more bases to gain an economic meaningful advantage whereas in HotS after 3 bases it doesnt really matter correct, maybe you did say this in the article, I only skimmed it, but how exactly do we go about incorporating that in SC2? I ask this not because I am necessarily choosing one system over another but because, as you have mentioned it is a long beta. Making extreme changes will lead to the best result not simple number changes...or else we get the infestor fiasco from hots beta (we makin fungal range 9, next week nope that was too weak lets make it 10, nope thats too weak lets make it 11, nope thats too weak lets make it 10 etc)
Yes. I am saying it will encourage more expansions to gain more meaningful economic advantages. Correct. That is the whole point of the article, I would suggest you read all of it or at least the parts about breaking the worker pair and the double harvest sections. How its done, read those sections and you will get an idea of how we did it without having direct access to the AI.
I wanted to address an opinion on the worker pull problem with the double harvest method.
What would the impacts be if the workers had the ability to slowly 'gather and hold' minerals?
Could this make it possible to mitigate the costs of a proxy by allowing 'mini trips' to avoid early attacking forces, or the ability to stop with half a payload to fight off a rush?
On April 12 2015 07:56 LloydRays wrote: I wanted to address an opinion on the worker pull problem with the double harvest method.
What would the impacts be if the workers had the ability to slowly 'gather and hold' minerals?
Could this make it possible to mitigate the costs of a proxy by allowing 'mini trips' to avoid early attacking forces, or the ability to stop with half a payload to fight off a rush?
Awesome article guys! Very well written and researched! I have to admit I was originally all for the "double mining method" (like the one used in Starbow), but now I am all for the double harvesting method. I really don't see any drawbacks to it, particularly when compared to the current SC2 economy
On April 12 2015 07:56 LloydRays wrote: I wanted to address an opinion on the worker pull problem with the double harvest method.
What would the impacts be if the workers had the ability to slowly 'gather and hold' minerals?
Could this make it possible to mitigate the costs of a proxy by allowing 'mini trips' to avoid early attacking forces, or the ability to stop with half a payload to fight off a rush?
This is exactly what double harvest does. The workers will hold 5 minerals if you interrupt them on the second mining half.
Double Mining does not hold minerals.
Double Harvest does.
You can't tell them to hold them individually, as minerals are not mined at a rate of 1/x.x seconds in sc2. The mineral field actually defines how many minerals workers take. So two harvests is the only way to address this issue and that is exactly why we like it and what we recommended
I wanted to address an opinion on the worker pull problem with the double harvest method.
What would the impacts be if the workers had the ability to slowly 'gather and hold' minerals?
Could this make it possible to mitigate the costs of a proxy by allowing 'mini trips' to avoid early attacking forces, or the ability to stop with half a payload to fight off a rush?
This is exactly what double harvest does. The workers will hold 5 minerals if you interrupt them on the second mining half.
Double Mining does not hold minerals.
Double Harvest does.
You can't tell them to hold them individually, as minerals are not mined at a rate of 1/x.x seconds in sc2. The mineral field actually defines how many minerals workers take. So two harvests is the only way to address this issue and that is exactly why we like it and what we recommended
I think you might have stopped reading too early
Ah I thought the paragraph between the two clips was just a caption lol
On April 12 2015 06:51 y0su wrote: The double harvest method just seems... "unnatural"
Just curious, what kind of impact would it have if all expansions (after natural) were gold? (6 patch). Worker pairing would mean you'd get optimal harvesting at 12 instead of 16 so your 4 base model would be 51 on minerals (24 on gas). 16+16+12+7 would be better? (perhaps the gold mineral return per trip and overall resources per gold patch could be modified as needed)
edit:maths fail
You want to try and have income match the existing sc2 income as much as possible as the number of workers stabilise in both income models.
6 gold income is probably too much on too few workers, and its going to throw mineral:gas ratios out of whack.
The other issue is it doesn't fundamentally attack the 2:1 worker ration in SC2.
Sure you can have more bases but you effectively have the same issue. There is some optimal count of mineral patches to probes in a 2:1 ratio. So maybe instead of 3 bases, you cap out at 4.
In the end you want to remove the cap as much as possible, so that players cannot just sit on some "optimal" base count.
This is the same reason the 6 patch 1 gas FRB approach from before won't work. You cap out at 24 mineral patches if you want less than 80+ workers. If you plan to make between 65 and 75 workers there is ZERO benefit to ever having more than 24 mineral patches available to you at any given time in game. Ever.
If you remove pairing, then the theoretical cap is 48 mineral patches. The theoretical cap for mineral income goes from 3 bases to 6. When the "im gonna sit and turtle up and have the same income as you" number of bases is 6 instead of 3, then pure turtling gets very very hard.
But isn't the end result is still an "optimal base count" (whatever system you use - be it 3 base, 4 base or 10 base). Again, I reiterate that doing something like all gold after nat would probably require a tweak to the gold mining amount (and patch value) to mimic the current 16 worker count. I do see where this could cause timing issues where you're able to essentially fully saturate a 3rd quicker...
Also, since both the double mining and double harvest methods increase overall mining (due to fewer worker trips) couldn't the mining time get a slight increase to keep income relatively unchanged?
On April 12 2015 06:51 y0su wrote: The double harvest method just seems... "unnatural"
Just curious, what kind of impact would it have if all expansions (after natural) were gold? (6 patch). Worker pairing would mean you'd get optimal harvesting at 12 instead of 16 so your 4 base model would be 51 on minerals (24 on gas). 16+16+12+7 would be better? (perhaps the gold mineral return per trip and overall resources per gold patch could be modified as needed)
edit:maths fail
You want to try and have income match the existing sc2 income as much as possible as the number of workers stabilise in both income models.
6 gold income is probably too much on too few workers, and its going to throw mineral:gas ratios out of whack.
The other issue is it doesn't fundamentally attack the 2:1 worker ration in SC2.
Sure you can have more bases but you effectively have the same issue. There is some optimal count of mineral patches to probes in a 2:1 ratio. So maybe instead of 3 bases, you cap out at 4.
In the end you want to remove the cap as much as possible, so that players cannot just sit on some "optimal" base count.
This is the same reason the 6 patch 1 gas FRB approach from before won't work. You cap out at 24 mineral patches if you want less than 80+ workers. If you plan to make between 65 and 75 workers there is ZERO benefit to ever having more than 24 mineral patches available to you at any given time in game. Ever.
If you remove pairing, then the theoretical cap is 48 mineral patches. The theoretical cap for mineral income goes from 3 bases to 6. When the "im gonna sit and turtle up and have the same income as you" number of bases is 6 instead of 3, then pure turtling gets very very hard.
But isn't the end result is still an "optimal base count" (whatever system you use - be it 3 base, 4 base or 10 base). Again, I reiterate that doing something like all gold after nat would probably require a tweak to the gold mining amount (and patch value) to mimic the current 16 worker count. I do see where this could cause timing issues where you're able to essentially fully saturate a 3rd quicker...
Also, since both the double mining and double harvest methods increase overall mining (due to fewer worker trips) couldn't the mining time get a slight increase to keep income relatively unchanged?
I was thinking the exact same thing. It would result in a graph more similar to the orignial, with the same outcome.
On April 12 2015 06:51 y0su wrote: The double harvest method just seems... "unnatural"
Just curious, what kind of impact would it have if all expansions (after natural) were gold? (6 patch). Worker pairing would mean you'd get optimal harvesting at 12 instead of 16 so your 4 base model would be 51 on minerals (24 on gas). 16+16+12+7 would be better? (perhaps the gold mineral return per trip and overall resources per gold patch could be modified as needed)
edit:maths fail
You want to try and have income match the existing sc2 income as much as possible as the number of workers stabilise in both income models.
6 gold income is probably too much on too few workers, and its going to throw mineral:gas ratios out of whack.
The other issue is it doesn't fundamentally attack the 2:1 worker ration in SC2.
Sure you can have more bases but you effectively have the same issue. There is some optimal count of mineral patches to probes in a 2:1 ratio. So maybe instead of 3 bases, you cap out at 4.
In the end you want to remove the cap as much as possible, so that players cannot just sit on some "optimal" base count.
This is the same reason the 6 patch 1 gas FRB approach from before won't work. You cap out at 24 mineral patches if you want less than 80+ workers. If you plan to make between 65 and 75 workers there is ZERO benefit to ever having more than 24 mineral patches available to you at any given time in game. Ever.
If you remove pairing, then the theoretical cap is 48 mineral patches. The theoretical cap for mineral income goes from 3 bases to 6. When the "im gonna sit and turtle up and have the same income as you" number of bases is 6 instead of 3, then pure turtling gets very very hard.
But isn't the end result is still an "optimal base count" (whatever system you use - be it 3 base, 4 base or 10 base). Again, I reiterate that doing something like all gold after nat would probably require a tweak to the gold mining amount (and patch value) to mimic the current 16 worker count. I do see where this could cause timing issues where you're able to essentially fully saturate a 3rd quicker...
Also, since both the double mining and double harvest methods increase overall mining (due to fewer worker trips) couldn't the mining time get a slight increase to keep income relatively unchanged?
There is no way to avoid an "optimal" base count. When workers mine most efficiently alone you can only ever have a 1:1 ratio, its impossible to be smaller. So in a system where resources exist to be obtained the most efficient way to do that will always be a "cap".
The goal isn't to completely remove the theoretical cap since this is legitimately impossible. The goal is to make the cap difficult to obtain. The harder it is to reach the cap the more time (<3 theDWF) there is for players to interact on the map and for their strategies and approaches in the game to interact.
If a player wants 6 bases as quickly as possible. They are free to achieve it. But 6 bases take a long time to get in terms of building times alone on Nexus/CC/Hatch. In addition it takes a lot of map control, which is not free, and it takes a lot of units to obtain that map control which takes a lot of micro.
And this is only from the "expanding player" perspective. The not expanding player has the power to harass, slow down, attack, TECH with their gas income, convert that to a timing, upgrades etc.
Its fine to have a six base cap. So long as it takes a lot more time, and a lot more effort to get there than in the current economic model
As to harvest time:
We did increase the double mining by more than just 2 actually. We increased it by about 2.15ish or something. This still has the worker pull issue because it takes so long to interrupt the cycle.
The nice outcome of the higher income is twofold: players get more money early for faster build order development (instead of 12 worker money), and the overall higher income speeds up the slow "I have my natural I'm gonna wait for X and Y to happen before I leave my base". The overall higher income ALSO speeds up the need for another base just a little bit. Much less drastic than in LotV but I think just enough (coupled with 1400 mineral patches it gets quicker I *think* we didnt test 1400 patches in long games just 1500) to make the game move with a touch more pace.
Maybe not LotV pace, but definitely a bit faster than HotS. And not because we force players to expand quickly, but because we give players the tools to get those expansions. A few more minerals could be a nexus alongside a 4 gate zealot warp in timing. The minerals could be an extra round of zerglings to pressure the map or defend the third hatchery as it gets put down. The extra minerals could be a sooner third hatch after taking gas (instead of 3 hatch before gas). The extra minerals could be another barracks and more marines for a strong 2 base timing (at the detriment of a third for example).
The extra minerals unlock a lot of mineral based strategies while keeping the gas based ones almost the same. The relative timings are all off in LotV atm because 12 workers provide much more money and at a higher worker count, making tech based timings shift. The 12 workers are an extra larva round for Zerg, and this alone pushes any Protoss WG timing to be effectively 6 larva behind (relative to HotS). The discussion of the impact of a 12 workers start, as i mentioned in the OP is for another article we have started on.
But in the end tech related timings all get pushed into an odd space when you have 12 workers, when your minerals mine out so quick, and when you are forced to spend minerals expanding. You end up with mineral heavy armies from some races and skipping gas spending, and in other cases gas only armies with minerals feeding expansions.
I think this has a bigger impact on protoss than people think. A forge and 2 cannons is almost an entire Half patch. A forge and 2 cannons are 1/8th of your available income on one base. Ravagers kill buildings, making the investment into cannons less valuable compared to HotS etc, it all snowballs.
I'm not very knowledgeable about the behavior of economies in SC2, so thank you for breaking it down in this article. My gut said that the LotV economy changes were positive but something was still off, and now I think I understand why much better.
This is a fantastic article and I also hope everyone takes the time to read all of it.
I would like to further some of the thoughts mentioned on the effect of altering mineral income as compared to gas. Changes to the existing mineral mining alters the relative strengths of mineral heavy unit compositions when compared to gas heavy compositions, at which point the strengths costs and times associated with every unit in the game might then have to be re-examined.
Taking the blizzard quote: "The main goal here was to make a change that would keep the feel of resourcing rates similar to Heart of the Swarm ..."
I feel that another intention behind this is that by keeping close to the current system the majority of the units in the game can remain unchanged. The more the economic model is altered the more blizzard is essentially re-creating an entirely new game instead of an expansion where there is some kind of baseline for the relative strengths of units to bring everything else in line with.
It seems to make the most sense for legacy of the void to be released some time between Blizzcon and the start of Wcs in 2016. Is there enough time to test new economic models as well as all of the new and potentially adjusted units and bring the game up to a standard that everyone expects?
Just some thoughts, I may be wrong as I have put no work or research into it.
One more note. What about the possibility of further upgrades or abilities that affect resource rates, these could be universal and permanent or only apply within a certain radius of the building that built them or last for a limited amount of time. Just as a player can invest in tech to alter the strengths of their army, they could further invest in tech to alter the strengths of their economy, increasing the options that are available. This of course would have a clear visible effect so an opponent could tell when someone is planning to gain economic advantages by upgrading. (This could also have the potential to change the 'optimal' base count the further a game progressed)
On April 12 2015 08:33 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Quick question:
If Blizzard were open to simply changing worker AI to remove pairing would you prefer that to the Double Harvest method?
I think we would need to test it. there is no way to know how that would work, but if optimal is 42 min/s and it drops at 9 after that it might be worth TRYING.
It would slow the game down in the early game though, which is the opposite of their current design goals. Due to no worker pairing at that income rate, you wouldn't be able to 13 gate after a 9 pylon for example with always making workers. If anything you need to increase early mining a little bit - even in BW you spent far less time just making workers before your build began to develop.
I think that is one of the goals as well - make builds develop sooner. And you can only do this by increasing early game income. Be it through worker starts or income mining. I believe, once more, blizzard took the wrong approach. The worker income should be higher early game on lower worker counts since 12 worker counts has a lot of unintended consequences.
As i just said in an earlier post, it changes the dynamic of gas based tech strats vs early mineral strats. Relative to HotS protoss is also behind in LotV beginning at the 1st second of the game. Protoss is normally due to chronoboost ever so slightly in a better position probe wise early, and relative to when buildings begin for zerg in particular, I *think* that WG and other researches like blink are a touch behind (compared to the same relative position in hots).
We will be testing relative timings between the races and tech timings after a 12 worker start in our next big article
On April 12 2015 08:33 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Quick question:
If Blizzard were open to simply changing worker AI to remove pairing would you prefer that to the Double Harvest method?
I think we would need to test it. there is no way to know how that would work, but if optimal is 42 min/s and it drops at 9 after that it might be worth TRYING.
It would slow the game down in the early game though, which is the opposite of their current design goals. Due to no worker pairing at that income rate, you wouldn't be able to 13 gate after a 9 pylon for example with always making workers. If anything you need to increase early mining a little bit - even in BW you spent far less time just making workers before your build began to develop.
I think that is one of the goals as well - make builds develop sooner. And you can only do this by increasing early game income. Be it through worker starts or income mining. I believe, once more, blizzard took the wrong approach. The worker income should be higher early game on lower worker counts since 12 worker counts has a lot of unintended consequences.
As i just said in an earlier post, it changes the dynamic of gas based tech strats vs early mineral strats. Relative to HotS protoss is also behind in LotV beginning at the 1st second of the game. Protoss is normally due to chronoboost ever so slightly in a better position probe wise early, and relative to when buildings begin for zerg in particular, I *think* that WG and other researches like blink are a touch behind (compared to the same relative position in hots).
We will be testing relative timings between the races and tech timings after a 12 worker start in our next big article
On April 12 2015 08:41 Espers wrote: Hoping Blizzard takes a lot from this!
Blizz has disappointed in their ability to learn from the community. However they did promise to change that, and to try and communicate with the community more, I see this article as a test. SetGuitarsToKill has already linked the article to @Starcraft and Psione on Twitter, the almost certain reality is that we get no response. But perhaps they will announce they will look into the matter, we will see...
Sorry for my bad english. English is not my native language.
I probably have a better solution for the resource system. But first I explain where I think Blizzard see the problems and why many solutions are out of the question for Blizzard.
Problems that are probably seen by Blizzard
Positive effect that is probably seen by Blizzard I think Blizzard want to keep the possibility to switch workers from a lost base to a base with just about 16 workers in order to partially increase the mineral income and don't lose a full base income. They don't want that 16 or more workers are completely useless after losing an expansion. Therefore 8 additional workers per base can gather with an lower efficiency.
Arising problems The problem what arises from this fact is that you can employ too many workers per base with a too big efficiency. In the current version you can employ 30 workers per base. Since you also need an army, you just need 3 bases, which mean at most 90 workers. You need at most 90 workers. In most cases, even less. The point is you need at most 3 bases. Most of you know the resulting problems, so I will not describe them now.
The reason why Blizzard don't want to remove mineral patches in order to adjust the resulting problems is probably because of the positive effect that I have described above first. They want to keep this positive effect. That is the reason why they don't reduce the required number of workers per mineral patch. In addition they don't want to remove some mineral patches, because they don't want to decrease the effect size of this positive effect.
Probable solution The solution consist of 2 steps.
First step Optimize the mineral patch occupation time so that exact 2 workers can work with a 100 % efficiency and a third worker would not or almost not increase the income. All this under optimal circumstances. For example, the shortest distance between HQ and mineral patch.
Second step 2 or even 3 workers can simultaneously gather on one mineral patch, but if for example 2 workers simultaneously gather on one mineral patch then the occupation time is increased by x %. For example 25 % for 2 workers and 60 % for 3 workers. The numbers can be adjusted. It's about the rough idea. If you want you can leave gather only 2 workers at the same time.
Result: With such a system you can adjust the resource problem with more flexibility and without to remove the described positive effect. In addition you can increase this positive effect whilst 3 or as many workers as you like can simultaneously gather on one mineral patch and you can set the efficiency for each worker number, which simultaneously gather on one mineral patch. The portion of the travel time to the mineral patches and back from the mineral patches is very minor. Therefore even by mineral patches with a greater distance it is not enough time to employ an additional worker with a significant efficiently.
I hope that Blizzard gives this a fair chance and comprehends what is being said. As you mentioned, it's a long beta. So 2-3 weeks on "Double Harvest" might go a long way to figuring out a better economy system. But that's just my opinion.
I didn't read the entire post, but I was glad i read 'expanding should be a strategic choice, not a requirement'. I think Falling (?) has elaborated on that principle before, and was disappointed that blizzard hadn't addressed the it yet, as far as i know.
On April 12 2015 06:51 y0su wrote: The double harvest method just seems... "unnatural"
Just curious, what kind of impact would it have if all expansions (after natural) were gold? (6 patch). Worker pairing would mean you'd get optimal harvesting at 12 instead of 16 so your 4 base model would be 51 on minerals (24 on gas). 16+16+12+7 would be better? (perhaps the gold mineral return per trip and overall resources per gold patch could be modified as needed)
edit:maths fail
You want to try and have income match the existing sc2 income as much as possible as the number of workers stabilise in both income models.
6 gold income is probably too much on too few workers, and its going to throw mineral:gas ratios out of whack.
The other issue is it doesn't fundamentally attack the 2:1 worker ration in SC2.
Sure you can have more bases but you effectively have the same issue. There is some optimal count of mineral patches to probes in a 2:1 ratio. So maybe instead of 3 bases, you cap out at 4.
In the end you want to remove the cap as much as possible, so that players cannot just sit on some "optimal" base count.
This is the same reason the 6 patch 1 gas FRB approach from before won't work. You cap out at 24 mineral patches if you want less than 80+ workers. If you plan to make between 65 and 75 workers there is ZERO benefit to ever having more than 24 mineral patches available to you at any given time in game. Ever.
If you remove pairing, then the theoretical cap is 48 mineral patches. The theoretical cap for mineral income goes from 3 bases to 6. When the "im gonna sit and turtle up and have the same income as you" number of bases is 6 instead of 3, then pure turtling gets very very hard.
But isn't the end result is still an "optimal base count" (whatever system you use - be it 3 base, 4 base or 10 base). Again, I reiterate that doing something like all gold after nat would probably require a tweak to the gold mining amount (and patch value) to mimic the current 16 worker count. I do see where this could cause timing issues where you're able to essentially fully saturate a 3rd quicker...
Also, since both the double mining and double harvest methods increase overall mining (due to fewer worker trips) couldn't the mining time get a slight increase to keep income relatively unchanged?
There is no way to avoid an "optimal" base count. When workers mine most efficiently alone you can only ever have a 1:1 ratio, its impossible to be smaller. So in a system where resources exist to be obtained the most efficient way to do that will always be a "cap".
The goal isn't to completely remove the theoretical cap since this is legitimately impossible. The goal is to make the cap difficult to obtain. The harder it is to reach the cap the more time (<3 theDWF) there is for players to interact on the map and for their strategies and approaches in the game to interact.
If a player wants 6 bases as quickly as possible. They are free to achieve it. But 6 bases take a long time to get in terms of building times alone on Nexus/CC/Hatch. In addition it takes a lot of map control, which is not free, and it takes a lot of units to obtain that map control which takes a lot of micro.
And this is only from the "expanding player" perspective. The not expanding player has the power to harass, slow down, attack, TECH with their gas income, convert that to a timing, upgrades etc.
Its fine to have a six base cap. So long as it takes a lot more time, and a lot more effort to get there than in the current economic model
As to harvest time:
We did increase the double mining by more than just 2 actually. We increased it by about 2.15ish or something. This still has the worker pull issue because it takes so long to interrupt the cycle.
The nice outcome of the higher income is twofold: players get more money early for faster build order development (instead of 12 worker money), and the overall higher income speeds up the slow "I have my natural I'm gonna wait for X and Y to happen before I leave my base". The overall higher income ALSO speeds up the need for another base just a little bit. Much less drastic than in LotV but I think just enough (coupled with 1400 mineral patches it gets quicker I *think* we didnt test 1400 patches in long games just 1500) to make the game move with a touch more pace.
Maybe not LotV pace, but definitely a bit faster than HotS. And not because we force players to expand quickly, but because we give players the tools to get those expansions. A few more minerals could be a nexus alongside a 4 gate zealot warp in timing. The minerals could be an extra round of zerglings to pressure the map or defend the third hatchery as it gets put down. The extra minerals could be a sooner third hatch after taking gas (instead of 3 hatch before gas). The extra minerals could be another barracks and more marines for a strong 2 base timing (at the detriment of a third for example).
The extra minerals unlock a lot of mineral based strategies while keeping the gas based ones almost the same. The relative timings are all off in LotV atm because 12 workers provide much more money and at a higher worker count, making tech based timings shift. The 12 workers are an extra larva round for Zerg, and this alone pushes any Protoss WG timing to be effectively 6 larva behind (relative to HotS). The discussion of the impact of a 12 workers start, as i mentioned in the OP is for another article we have started on.
But in the end tech related timings all get pushed into an odd space when you have 12 workers, when your minerals mine out so quick, and when you are forced to spend minerals expanding. You end up with mineral heavy armies from some races and skipping gas spending, and in other cases gas only armies with minerals feeding expansions.
I think this has a bigger impact on protoss than people think. A forge and 2 cannons is almost an entire Half patch. A forge and 2 cannons are 1/8th of your available income on one base. Ravagers kill buildings, making the investment into cannons less valuable compared to HotS etc, it all snowballs.
But I think ive just started rambling
I've got some overall "meta" type concerns, but that's exactly why it would be cool to test (since we'll have beta for a while!)
One of the things I actually like about the 12 worker model is that you're not punished as much for scouting right away. (Most HotS builds tend to scout around the 12 worker mark too so it isn't too crazy an idea to start the game with a scout.) This could be an issue with any of the methods that otherwise increase early income (as you said earlier things, like 8 depot builds, would actually be more punishing to scout for). I definitely agree mining out is a big issue in LotV currently (I haven't gotten to experience it in 1v1 since my skill isn't good enough but I've definitely seen the NEED to expand vs AI) But I'll wait for that discussion :D
I am very disappointed. This long article actually does not analyze much into the current LotV economy, instead it pushes this BW nastagia idea of "worker inefficiency" without really comparing the two in a meaningful manner. I really doubt Blizzard will read into this much if at all, since the analysis is pretty much biased in the beginning.
Think about this. The current LotV approach can be thought of as such that bases that start from same as HotS, which "favors" turtling and defense on fewer bases, but only until the point where half of the patch starts to mine out. Then it switches to the mode that it rewards expanding, as 8+ workers in a half mined out base is highly inefficient. Thus, it is actually sort of midway between the original SC2 economy, where when you have 16- workers it does not matter where they are, and the proposed reward-to-expand proposals, which wants to put 8 workers per base to be at optimum efficiency. Therefore, I would say the current approach actually favors defending on fewer bases more than the inefficient worker approach, instead of vice versa.
The catch is, of course, that this favoritism lives on a timer, due to the lack of total resources. This, however, can be remedied by increasing the amount of minerals in the "large" patches, maybe to match the original total amount.
Also I really strongly object to the statement saying "current approach penalizes for not expanding, instead of rewards expanding" , especially without any supporting arguments. Notice that since the resource is symmetrical across players, so technically speaking reward one player is equivalent to penalize the other; so this statement in itself is meaningless anyway. I would say the impression is from comparing to playing the original SC2/HotS, where one would find the new approach similar in the beginning but if not expanding, soon turn bitter. This is why there is a penalizing feeling; you need to expand to sustain. But if you switch to the proposed approach, in effect it is bitter in the beginning. So maybe there is a "reward" feeling when you expand, but it is just an illusion due to the fact that the current approach actually gives you better things from fewer bases in the first place.
All in all, those feeling comments and comparisons between the current LotV setup and the proposed inefficient worker approach really do not withstand scrutiny, and are really formed just from biased observations. In fact, I think people will find that blizzard's current approach will work better with some number tuning, without those weird mechanisms to handicap the workers. And it is after all a good virtue, such that every additional worker gives you the same resource income most of the time.
p.s. Even given the stance of the article, certain points are really out of place. Comparing 3 bases with 6 gases and 4 bases with 8 gases? Why do you complain the lack of minerals when you put those workers in the extra gases? That is at best irrelevant to the point, and can be misleading. Also if one wants to discuss in detail how income increases as a function of the number of workers, should one not consider the effect of far and near patches?
That was alot of research done and really well explained.
I still see the changed economics model only as a way to shorten the match duration though and not as a change to the economy system itself. So I belief they would like to stick to their 3 base system which is rather easy to understand and follow. While a system that rewards expanding, adds huge amounts of depths to every aspect of the game (harder base Macro, lots of more scouting and decision making needed). So I guess if they add something like this they would have to slow down the game pace.
And the 4 Mineral patches that life longer are just a safety mechanic in my eyes. So that if you fall behind early game, you will be at a 2,5 vs 3 base disadvantage instead of a 2 vs 3 one. So that winning through a contain doesn't happen every second game where one side gets a small advantage.
Seriously impressive work. I was going to ask the question about reducing mining time to level out the worker income, relative to hots, but you had already thought of that. I suppose it comes down to how comfortable Blizzard is with starting over on early timings. I personally hope they stay that course, it leaves a lot of room to tinker with warpgates/gateway units other issues while everything is up in the air anyway.
At face value, I really do prefer this to the lotv model, I hope they test it soon.
On April 12 2015 09:32 timchen1017 wrote: I am very disappointed. This long article actually does not analyze much into the current LotV economy, instead it pushes this BW nastagia idea of "worker inefficiency" without really comparing the two in a meaningful manner. I really doubt Blizzard will read into this much if at all, since the analysis is pretty much biased in the beginning.
Think about this. The current LotV approach can be thought of as such that bases that start from same as HotS, which "favors" turtling and defense on fewer bases, but only until the point where half of the patch starts to mine out. Then it switches to the mode that it rewards expanding, as 8+ workers in a half mined out base is highly inefficient. Thus, it is actually sort of midway between the original SC2 economy, where when you have 16- workers it does not matter where they are, and the proposed reward-to-expand proposals, which wants to put 8 workers per base to be at optimum efficiency. Therefore, I would say the current approach actually favors defending on fewer bases more than the inefficient worker approach, instead of vice versa.
The catch is, of course, that this favoritism lives on a timer, due to the lack of total resources. This, however, can be remedied by increasing the amount of minerals in the "large" patches, maybe to match the original total amount.
Also I really strongly object to the statement saying "current approach penalizes for not expanding, instead of rewards expanding" , especially without any supporting arguments. Notice that since the resource is symmetrical across players, so technically speaking reward one player is equivalent to penalize the other; so this statement in itself is meaningless anyway. I would say the impression is from comparing to playing the original SC2/HotS, where one would find the new approach similar in the beginning but if not expanding, soon turn bitter. This is why there is a penalizing feeling; you need to expand to sustain. But if you switch to the proposed approach, in effect it is bitter in the beginning. So maybe there is a "reward" feeling when you expand, but it is just an illusion due to the fact that the current approach actually gives you better things from fewer bases in the first place.
All in all, those feeling comments and comparisons between the current LotV setup and the proposed inefficient worker approach really do not withstand scrutiny, and are really formed just from biased observations. In fact, I think people will find that blizzard's current approach will work better with some number tuning, without those weird mechanisms to handicap the workers. And it is after all a good virtue, such that every additional worker gives you the same resource income most of the time.
p.s. Even given the stance of the article, certain points are really out of place. Comparing 3 bases with 6 gases and 4 bases with 8 gases? Why do you complain the lack of minerals when you put those workers in the extra gases? That is at best irrelevant to the point, and can be misleading. Also if one wants to discuss in detail how income increases as a function of the number of workers, should one not consider the effect of far and near patches?
I felt like I addressed a lot of your points.
Yes the half patch approach does mine out. But I am of the opinion that the timer should be set by your opponent, not by your base.
I agree that maybe the overall income a base can provide is a bit too high, which is why I discuss 1400 total patches.
What I am trying to get at with the 4/3 base example is that 4th bases exist only for gas. Mineral income is negligible with them.
It also doesnt matter how many minerals the full patches have in LotV - the fact you lose half a base worth of economy on such a quick timer is really IMO the wrong way to go, reasons for which I break down in the article. When you put a timer on player with the half patches players have a timer they need to play around - teching must be done in relation to this time.
Its fine to tech instead of econ. But to tech to lose (on two base) 25% of your income is brutal.
Its much better to tech and have the alternative be your opponent gaining the advantage in income as opposed to you losing it to yourself. If the opponent gets a third base, and you teched in half patch you lose 4 nodes (25% of your income) the opponent has a net gain of 4 nodes. So you end up on 12 nodes of income, and your opponent ends up on 20 nodes of income. Thats a huge income difference - with no real action of your opponent (other than racing their own clock better).
I think also the disparity of 12 vs 20 mineral patches is very different from being 16 vs 24 in HotS mining model due to worker pairing. One is much more punishing than the other. Add in the fact the player teching gives up map control usually makes it really tough when taking the third again.
I really just dislike the fact that the half patches mine out. Again - you should be rewarded for expanding not punished for failing to expand. I have no doubt blizzard can balance the numbers in a half patch economy, I just think giving players more tools, is better than forcing them to lose some of them.
Having a base mine half out is a big negative for any strategy that doesn't expand aggressively, and wants to play it slow. Say all you want about hating slow strats, the issue with them in HotS imo is that the counter play is gone.
You can't mass expand to counter a turtle player - you just barely benefit in economy by mass expanding.
Also in response to the close/far patches - i averaged all the incomes out based on in game numbers.
If you disagree with the premise that rewarding expansions is different from punishing for people for not expanding we then there is no discussion really. You just have a different perspective on the economy.
Article seems pretty solid, still going over it, but showing graphs as a "relative" difference when they don't start at 0 is a bit of a skewed perspective.
On April 12 2015 09:32 timchen1017 wrote: I am very disappointed. This long article actually does not analyze much into the current LotV economy, instead it pushes this BW nastagia idea of "worker inefficiency" without really comparing the two in a meaningful manner. I really doubt Blizzard will read into this much if at all, since the analysis is pretty much biased in the beginning.
Think about this. The current LotV approach can be thought of as such that bases that start from same as HotS, which "favors" turtling and defense on fewer bases, but only until the point where half of the patch starts to mine out. Then it switches to the mode that it rewards expanding, as 8+ workers in a half mined out base is highly inefficient. Thus, it is actually sort of midway between the original SC2 economy, where when you have 16- workers it does not matter where they are, and the proposed reward-to-expand proposals, which wants to put 8 workers per base to be at optimum efficiency. Therefore, I would say the current approach actually favors defending on fewer bases more than the inefficient worker approach, instead of vice versa.
The catch is, of course, that this favoritism lives on a timer, due to the lack of total resources. This, however, can be remedied by increasing the amount of minerals in the "large" patches, maybe to match the original total amount.
Also I really strongly object to the statement saying "current approach penalizes for not expanding, instead of rewards expanding" , especially without any supporting arguments. Notice that since the resource is symmetrical across players, so technically speaking reward one player is equivalent to penalize the other; so this statement in itself is meaningless anyway. I would say the impression is from comparing to playing the original SC2/HotS, where one would find the new approach similar in the beginning but if not expanding, soon turn bitter. This is why there is a penalizing feeling; you need to expand to sustain. But if you switch to the proposed approach, in effect it is bitter in the beginning. So maybe there is a "reward" feeling when you expand, but it is just an illusion due to the fact that the current approach actually gives you better things from fewer bases in the first place.
All in all, those feeling comments and comparisons between the current LotV setup and the proposed inefficient worker approach really do not withstand scrutiny, and are really formed just from biased observations. In fact, I think people will find that blizzard's current approach will work better with some number tuning, without those weird mechanisms to handicap the workers. And it is after all a good virtue, such that every additional worker gives you the same resource income most of the time.
p.s. Even given the stance of the article, certain points are really out of place. Comparing 3 bases with 6 gases and 4 bases with 8 gases? Why do you complain the lack of minerals when you put those workers in the extra gases? That is at best irrelevant to the point, and can be misleading. Also if one wants to discuss in detail how income increases as a function of the number of workers, should one not consider the effect of far and near patches?
Your point about one players reward being the others punishment is actually pretty salient imo, but I think the picture is bigger than that.
Blizzard themselves have stated (and a good portion of the community echoes this) that there aren't enough constant incentives to apply pressure to your opponent, which leads to predictable timings involving all or most of the army. One of the goals is to spread out the action, which involves giving each player more surface area to attack, and this accomplishes that by making expansions reward you a) faster (higher minerals per second right off the bat) b) making expansion continue to reward you all the way up to six mining bases (which will be hard to achieve because of how vulnerable they are) instead of three before they start to show diminishing returns (because while that fourth base in hots might be worth taking for the gases, your ROI is substantially lower than it is on the first three and therefore affords you a much smaller advantage). It also means that if you attack a player who is a base up but has the same number of workers your advantage isn't as strong in the fight, i.e. expansions are somewhat safer without being totally safe.
What this means for the player is that not only do I have an incentive to expand (which is true both in current lotv and in this model, which you pointed out) but that taking an expansion is a more sound strategic choice, or less risky. This changes the way we think about pressuring opponents from killing/denying bases to making favorable trades/harassing workers, meaning that constant pressure is a better allocation of your resources than ramming everything you have into everything they have.
It's not about what is required to get the same amount of money as much as it is about how those requirements effect the flow and strategic diversity of the game, with the end goal being more spread out, constant action, which is something, and I feel pretty confident saying this, the majority of the community (including Blizzard) wants.
Let me put my argument this way: suppose you just have 4 patches in every base. For the sake of the argument let's assume it never mines out. Now the optimum worker count per base becomes 8. With some number tuning (ie, minerals per trip), do you think this solves the 3-base saturation issue and rewards expanding? I think so. Please do let me know if my understanding of your argument is flawed, if it is not the case...
Now, the way I view LotV is that it gives you a timed bonus for every base on top of that. There are extra patches that will mine out. Therefore, (again, with proper number tuning), defending/teching on fewer bases should be even easier, with the caveat that one must know about the mine out timings and plan to expand at the right times.
I still hold the opinion that rewarding/punishing is a conception issue, rather than a real one. What I read from your reply is that the 'punishing' feeling comes from the non-sustainability or the requirement to expand at a timing. I can agree to that, but that is different from all economic considerations you are talking about in the article.
For the far/near patches, you really shouldn't average them, since if you handle properly you should be able to tackle the near patches first, thus seeing income differentiation before/after 8 workers/base as well.
On April 12 2015 10:04 timchen1017 wrote: Let me put my argument this way: suppose you just have 4 patches in every base. For the sake of the argument let's assume it never mines out. Now the optimum worker count per base becomes 8. With some number tuning (ie, minerals per trip), do you think this solves the 3-base saturation issue and rewards expanding? I think so. Please do let me know if my understanding of your argument is flawed, if it is not the case...
Now, the way I view LotV is that it gives you a timed bonus for every base on top of that. There are extra patches that will mine out. Therefore, (again, with proper number tuning), defending/teching on fewer bases should be even easier, with the caveat that one must know about the mine out timings and plan to expand at the right times.
I still hold the opinion that rewarding/punishing is a conception issue, rather than a real one. What I read from your reply is that the 'punishing' feeling comes from the non-sustainability or the requirement to expand at a timing. I can agree to that, but that is different from all economic considerations you are talking about in the article.
For the far/near patches, you really shouldn't average them, since if you handle properly you should be able to tackle the near patches first, thus seeing income differentiation before/after 8 workers/base as well.
The issue with your understanding of 8 workers in your example is flawed.
The issue isn't with making it "8 workers per base".
The issue is worker pairing.
The optimal income is 2:1 worker:mineral patch ratio with about 24 mineral patches being mined. This interaction is no different in LotV compared to HotS or WoL. Sure it might take more bases to hit the "optimal" income ratio of 2:1 but the 2:1 still exists.
If one player has 24 mineral patches mining they don't need more until they mine out. This might push out to four bases in LotV but if a way to settle on these mineral patches is discovered in the meta, we will see the meta sit there. If you can get a fourth base before the main and natural are both mined out in LotV you can sit on those bases. The three base cap of hots has shifted up to the 4 base cap of LotV.
In fact if you increase the number of minerals on the big patches you make the issue of a "4 base cap" even BIGGER rather than smaller. You will introduce the same problem but pushing it slightly further along the game tree.
Ultimately you want to break the possibility of a base cap as much as possible so that there is no way for the meta to settle on an "optimal" income. If you have a 1:1 ratio of worker to mineral lines you need 48 patches to achieve equal income between players. That is the goal. You want to make it so that optimal base count is so large, it makes obtaining it nearly impossible if you wish to just turtle.
Optimal base count can be reached (assuming 48 workers on minerals you could make more and get even more money which will be fantastic for Zerg) but you need to make it hard to get there and hard to keep it.
The timer is still there, and if anything the timer is more pronounced. Your opponent controls the timer 100% they control how much more income they have compared to you. And you have the ability to let that happen or slow it down. It puts a certain amount of power/control in both players hands. The alternative, current LotV model, puts the power in one players hands. Or rather the tools are more limited for one than the other. Its more about denying bases than it is about denying workers especially if you fall behind on bases and mine out.
The player who can expand and exert map control (expansions require map control to be "safe" or "viable") has a major advantage over their opponent in LotV. A zerg player who can get a lot of speedlings and deny a Protoss third base in LotV with 3 hatcheries up is an an immensely benificial position in LotV right now. If a protoss third is denied and the half patches mine out the protoss player effectively loses a third, AND 8 workers worth of mining AND they have less income to mount a comeback or build an army to contest that third. They completely lose map control in that scenario. Its also a common scenario we see in HotS but ravager play is all the rage now instead The protoss player has a LOT less control over the flow of the game compared to the Zerg opponent in this scenario.
the same kind of scenario for Z losing map control and a base or T can also show up and in both scenarios one player has a lot more influence over the match than the other one.
In the Double Harvest mining, if zerg denies a third base they denied a third but the income of 2 bases remains and an army rebuild, or harass to draw the army away (giving toss map control) can occur without diverting too many resources away from the new third base. When you consider that a half patch is almost entirely one forge (150) 2 cannons (300) and two pylons (200) (650 total) you can see how investing THAT much of your total economy (and associated income rate) when taking a Nexus (400 minerals) becomes difficult if you need to do it without the half patches mining.
In Double Harvest you dont need to worry about the relative cost of the nexus and support buildings in relation to your overall income available. You can have a nexus be denied (or CC and hatch) and not immediately fall behind the opponent in income. Your resources can be put into the expansion while also building an army, they can be redirected. This redirection of resources is much more difficult when you have far less income as a rate and far less income in general on a a base (hence why half patch is bad).
Making all the minerals the same overall amount across 8 patches in a worker paired economy just returns is to the three base cap issue as well.
I hope this makes sense?
On April 12 2015 09:56 UberNuB wrote: Article seems pretty solid, still going over it, but showing graphs as a "relative" difference when they don't start at 0 is a bit of a skewed perspective.
edit: "Relative" Income Shown
Relative Income in Actuality
I tried to put enough numbers on the graph with a clear Y axis that people could read it and use it to understand my comment in context while also breaking up the big wall of text.
I really hope Blizzard gives this a shot. With LotV being in close alpha it seems like the perfect opportunity to test something "crazy." Whether or not the current set of testers is willing to commit to it would be another issue but I can't imagine too many turning their back. Great article.
I get your point of worker/patch ratio. Still I think, in the end the result is similar. I mean, if 4 patch/base, it is still pretty much impossible to get to 24 patches., or 6 bases. This is the same as 48 patches and 8 patches per base. And as long as the optimum patch number is larger than one can realistically get to, it always rewards expanding. I mean, with some number tuning and barring worker kill issues for now, 4 patch/base can pretty much work in the same way as your double harvest mining model, regarding to expand vs turtle issues, right?
If you use my point of view, what I am saying about the current protoss is that they are still relying the "extra" patches that will mine out sooner. Or the current balance forces them to do so. And that is what is wrong, instead of the fundamental economic model.
Or to put it another way, LotV actually adds a new layer of the strategy, that you may do a "timed" turtle using those small patches. Maybe the problem is then if you make the "real" turtle viable the "timed" turtle becomes too strong; so "real" turtle becomes not viable. But maybe that is what Blizzard intended. There is still a build of a bit turtling, but that build can not turtle forever.
From this perspective, another different thing is probably that the reward for mass expanding will be masked by this temporary bonus. That is whenever you expand to a new base, in this point of view you actually expand into two, before those patches mine out, and that is probably too much.
On April 12 2015 09:32 timchen1017 wrote: I am very disappointed. This long article actually does not analyze much into the current LotV economy, instead it pushes this BW nastagia idea of "worker inefficiency" without really comparing the two in a meaningful manner. I really doubt Blizzard will read into this much if at all, since the analysis is pretty much biased in the beginning.
Think about this. The current LotV approach can be thought of as such that bases that start from same as HotS, which "favors" turtling and defense on fewer bases, but only until the point where half of the patch starts to mine out. Then it switches to the mode that it rewards expanding, as 8+ workers in a half mined out base is highly inefficient. Thus, it is actually sort of midway between the original SC2 economy, where when you have 16- workers it does not matter where they are, and the proposed reward-to-expand proposals, which wants to put 8 workers per base to be at optimum efficiency. Therefore, I would say the current approach actually favors defending on fewer bases more than the inefficient worker approach, instead of vice versa.
The catch is, of course, that this favoritism lives on a timer, due to the lack of total resources. This, however, can be remedied by increasing the amount of minerals in the "large" patches, maybe to match the original total amount.
Also I really strongly object to the statement saying "current approach penalizes for not expanding, instead of rewards expanding" , especially without any supporting arguments. Notice that since the resource is symmetrical across players, so technically speaking reward one player is equivalent to penalize the other; so this statement in itself is meaningless anyway. I would say the impression is from comparing to playing the original SC2/HotS, where one would find the new approach similar in the beginning but if not expanding, soon turn bitter. This is why there is a penalizing feeling; you need to expand to sustain. But if you switch to the proposed approach, in effect it is bitter in the beginning. So maybe there is a "reward" feeling when you expand, but it is just an illusion due to the fact that the current approach actually gives you better things from fewer bases in the first place.
All in all, those feeling comments and comparisons between the current LotV setup and the proposed inefficient worker approach really do not withstand scrutiny, and are really formed just from biased observations. In fact, I think people will find that blizzard's current approach will work better with some number tuning, without those weird mechanisms to handicap the workers. And it is after all a good virtue, such that every additional worker gives you the same resource income most of the time.
p.s. Even given the stance of the article, certain points are really out of place. Comparing 3 bases with 6 gases and 4 bases with 8 gases? Why do you complain the lack of minerals when you put those workers in the extra gases? That is at best irrelevant to the point, and can be misleading. Also if one wants to discuss in detail how income increases as a function of the number of workers, should one not consider the effect of far and near patches?
The "meaningful" arguments you're looking for are centered around the "24 node cap", which is extensively compared and contrasted in different models in order to achieve the most desired effect. The biggest issue with the LotV model is that it still retains a 2:1 worker to node efficiency, so even if you're forced to take a 3rd or 4th earlier (in order to retain mining efficiency), it's still the same 24 nodes that are being mined; there is no ADVANTAGE to taking the extra bases.
The half patches with saturation are mined out at approximately 7:00 HotS time (which is mentioned in the article), meaning that you are starving out by ~10:00 unless you have a 3rd base. How many people "turtle" on 3 bases at 10:00?
Finally, your argument about a biased post is indeed correct. We are biased. Every article you ever read is biased to argue something, or else it is a bad article. Our intention here is not to compare and contrast models without drawing conclusions like a high school paper; we are specifically arguing that the "3 base cap" in SC2 is a result of the worker efficiency, and that while Blizzard is trying to adjust this by changing the amount of minerals you have available, changing the mining efficiency is a more elegant solution which rewards expansions rather than punishes turtling.
And no, one should not consider the near and far patches; they make nominal difference on the overall income between models.
A little too many words for a relatively a simple concept with unknown consequences. "It will reward expanding instead of punishing turtling and therefore it will increase the number of strategies" is a baseless claim. The author probably can't name a single additional "strategy" that the offered change might bring.
SC2 is a zero-sum game at its core and especially for economy. What is true for you is also true for your opponent, and number of viable strategies will rarely depend on such a minimal change. Frankly speaking, Blizzard's change does not much more than changing the pace of the game. New strategies will largely be introduced around new or changed units and maps.
What the author suggests amounts to no change at all from current state of the game. Part of the reason why we see 3 base economy now is because it creates an equilibrium where both army and economy are maximized. Also of note is the ease of taking naturals in this game. Starting with 3rd, the difficulty of securing additional bases increases dramatically. Acquiring 3rd and 4th and so on needs a lot of investment. As a matter of fact the most prevalent tactics throughout SC2's life have been 2 base all-ins, not 3 base turtling.
Reduced harvest rate the author suggests will have very little impact in the game. If anything the proposal will have an effect of "Upkeep" in Warcraft 3, which will discourage players from further expanding after a certain point.
On April 12 2015 10:47 timchen1017 wrote: I get your point of worker/patch ratio. Still I think, in the end the result is similar. I mean, if 4 patch/base, it is still pretty much impossible to get to 24 patches., or 6 bases. This is the same as 48 patches and 8 patches per base. And as long as the optimum patch number is larger than one can realistically get to, it always rewards expanding. I mean, with some number tuning and barring worker kill issues for now, 4 patch/base can pretty much work in the same way as your double harvest mining model, regarding to expand vs turtle issues, right?
If you use my point of view, what I am saying about the current protoss is that they are still relying the "extra" patches that will mine out sooner. Or the current balance forces them to do so. And that is what is wrong, instead of the fundamental economic model.
Or to put it another way, LotV actually adds a new layer of the strategy, that you may do a "timed" turtle using those small patches. Maybe the problem is then if you make the "real" turtle viable the "timed" turtle becomes too strong; so "real" turtle becomes not viable. But maybe that is what Blizzard intended. There is still a build of a bit turtling, but that build can not turtle forever.
From this perspective, another different thing is probably that the reward for mass expanding will be masked by this temporary bonus. That is whenever you expand to a new base, in this point of view you actually expand into two, before those patches mine out, and that is probably too much.
I think the issue is that the "timed" optimal base count becomes very different for different races. Zerg in LotV can hit an optimal worker ratio to patch ratio with only 4 hatches. Terran might be able to hit a 4 CC? Protoss imo cannot get to 24 patches easily as it is now and it partially is responsible for the difficulties protoss is having.
I think its better to give everyone the same tools and allow for turtle strategies honestly. Now, we could and probably should drop below 1500 mineral patches. I think 1400 is a good compromise tbh in double harvest (since the time is not just influenced by total minerals but total mining time going up too).
I agree that we can balance it so protoss doesn't need "extra patches" but what if they are able to get the "extra" patches, it becomes a bit of an issue. Its a lot harder to balance protoss around a reduced economy than it is to balance around a slightly faster economy (mineral only, gas is the same).
With regards to your "timed turtle" I argue double harvest achieves this same level of strategy with a little extra depth. The defending player will need to scout workers being cut or not, and will have a greater income on same worker (or higher) count. The sheer income advantage can translate to a better defense from the player if the turtling player waits too long - which achieves the same purpose - you are on a timer except its controlled by the opponents economy.
Timed turtling is also too short IMO. The issue there is that tech becomes difficult to obtain. If it takes 2 minutes to obtain blink and you mine out at 6:30, and you need blink to hold a third base, AND blink can only start at 3 mins in (in order to not die to unscoutable builds) it punishes the blink player for teching to blink.
I don't think reducing research times across the board is a good option either. So in this sense - players are given fewer opportunities, or options to their choice to expand. Tech is more difficult to obtain if you expand a lot as you should be spending the gas on units to hold and minerals on the town hall and workers.
The relative value of each mineral in LotV is a lot higher, and the value of tech much lower is how i see the economy of LotV.
I guess we just fundamentally disagree but honestly, i think removing worker pairing is just a more effective way to remove the mining cap and unlock more bases while allowing the highest variety of strategies to be viable (while increasing counterplay to turtle strats).
I could even begin to go into the importance of higher income and its relation to trading against turtle play once the mineral cap is unlocked by removing worker pairing but that involves related net incomes and value in building banks etc.
Suffice to say if there was no 2:1 cap, i think turtle swarmhost or mech would be far far less problematic than we saw in HotS.
P.S. While we may disagree, i do like this discussion. Got me thinking on other things more and more
I'm curious how Double Harvesting looks beyond the 16 workers per base mark. Does net income continue to increase, but very slowly? Or does adding more than a 16th worker add no income as it happens in HotS with more than 24 workers?
Edit: This seems like the sort of thing that the article covered, but I have double checked and am indeed not finding it. If I'm missing something, let me know.
On April 12 2015 11:06 AmicusVenti wrote: I'm curious how Double Harvesting looks beyond the 16 workers per base mark. Does net income continue to increase, but very slowly? Or does adding more than a 16th worker add no income as it happens in HotS with more than 24 workers?
Edit: This seems like the sort of thing that the article covered, but I have double checked and am indeed not finding it. If I'm missing something, let me know.
It increases very slowly from workers 17 to 24. At 24 (full mineral saturation) it mines the same as the Worker Pairing model (WoL, HotS, LotV if full base). The diffrence is negligible.
So in short - going up to 24 you will always have a net increase. The net increase is less and less worth the investment of more workers (no point in getting 17 unless you want to expand and spread the workers optimally to begin with or lost a base and need to transfer workers to save them).
See the excel file I uploaded and linked to in the conclusion or the screencap of my excel file in full res for the stats at 24.
I didn't do the actual curve 17-24 in full since at 16 it begins to match HotS, and at 17 it might be more than HotS but its efficiency is significantly worse the close you get to 24 which balances out to be the same in the end
I only skimmed so far (sorry), but you really want the bar chart y-axis to go all the way down to 0, or they are very misleading.
Also don't approve of the random inserted pictures that are only there to break the text.
You know I agree with your point though.
Edit: Let me post the plot I posted in the other thread, that sums up the key concept as I think about it. You touch on it in the last few plots, but it's not quite there for me. Point being that once on 3 (or "sufficient" amount of) bases, there is no economical gain from taking bases, and thus map control. Turtling up on three bases gives me as much income as taking every base on the map.
So in sc2 it isn't really possible to play "Sauron Zerg", where you stay low tech, but expand like mad and build ridiculous amounts of low-tech units. Point was that by maintaining map control your drones were more valuable over many bases, and I could afford inefficient trades. In hots, once your opponent is on 3 bases, I can never afford inefficient trades as I cannot mine faster no matter how many bases I take.
Very, very nice article. Thank you so much for putting the work into it! I noticed that gas mining was not discussed, and while I understand that the minerals side of things is what is motivating the changes, it would seem odd to have a different algorithm for gas mining than for mining minerals. Would this create problems with teching too fast, or was analyzing the effects of double harvesting gas simply too much trouble for something that isn't causing trouble in HotS?
I would like Zeromus to know that I read the entire article and absolutely loved it. Well done. I've been watching this game and playing it for over 12 years and can honestly say this is some of the best stuff I've seen written about an inherent flaw and strategy stifling aspect of SCII.
On April 12 2015 11:23 feanaro wrote: Very, very nice article. Thank you so much for putting the work into it! I noticed that gas mining was not discussed, and while I understand that the minerals side of things is what is motivating the changes, it would seem odd to have a different algorithm for gas mining than for mining minerals. Would this create problems with teching too fast, or was analyzing the effects of double harvesting gas simply too much trouble for something that isn't causing trouble in HotS?
Gas can mine the same way, changing the way it interacts with patch is a different set of behaviours than the gas geysers.
Also to the person who doesn't like the random pictures to break up text: after years of TL articles I and others have learned, if you dont break up the text no matter how interesting people will get real bored and stop reading really fast haha.
They also help show how the mining looks for some visual aids for more visual learners.
Starting at 0 is not always best, but rather putting enough information to allow people to not be mislead so long as they remain critical of the images is the best. I am putting a little bit of I guess, respect to you and assuming you won't just look at pics but rather read what goes along with it. The graphs are for support, not replacement. Also 5 years of grad school has taught me some basic use of images and graphs to support points without being purposefully misleading.
On April 12 2015 11:32 bo1b wrote: Great post, but this graph is a little dodgy in its implications tbh
The graph clearly states "bob vs chris example" and should be viewed as a visual representation (for ppl who like images) to help them better understand the long text. Its intended for visual learners to have a little support alongside what is otherwise, IMO, convoluted text. Its not meant for people who "get" the complicated text
Very nice article. I would definitely go for the Double Harvest model as the first experiment. I like the paradigm shift from 'three base is the problem' to '24 nodes is 100% efficiency is the problem.' I hadn't thought of it quite like that, but it is so true.
However it is done, I think it is very important to create inefficiency into the economic system. If you have X patches, then 1:1 ratio should be 100% and every worker added after that should still gain income but at a noticiable less than 100% efficiency.
I think this is an absolute requirement for a worker-model RTS game. Because we have to think, if workers always mine at 100% efficiency, why exactly do we have workers at all rather than simply build income generating buildings? Buildings that passively generate income is a MUCH simpler economic model if we simply want 100% efficiency. (Or static inefficiency- like Battle for MiddleEarth.) Is retaining the worker-model just a nostalgic hold-over that Blizzard never bothered to update?
One reason to have a worker-model RTS is centred around harassment. Yes you can kill buildings as part of harassment. But being able to dodge storms, reaver shots, disrupter shots, tank shots or being able to flee form hellion or vulture harassment or lurker or DT drops is inherently more interesting.
But the second reason is to incentivize expanding. You could have passive resource collection buildings built around the map on nodes like the SupCom series. But an inefficient worker system above X minerals creates greater depth in an worker-model RTS. I think it maximizes the use of the particular economic system, rather than try borrow (and thereby cheapen, what a system that it is not.) It's not just that the system creates inefficiencies- it is a DYNAMIC inefficient system. Depending on how many bases and how you distribute your workers and how you save them from harass, your income will fluctuate. This is a FAR more interesting system than 100% efficient passive generation OR inefficient but static income generation. (If you are not familiar, depending on where you place buildings in Battle for Middle Earth, the income can be anywhere from 100% efficient to 0% efficient. But once placed, the efficiency will never change.) The dynamic changes is what makes the worker model so interesting and creating inefficiencies capitalizes on this dynamic economic model.
Hypothetical Example: Player 1 has 40 workers on two bases, but Player 2 has 32 workers on 3 bases. Player 2 has better income because their spread out workers are mining more efficiently. There is so much more flexibility in play- Player 1 got stuck on two bases, but can power workers and units to bust out, while Players 2 makes use of their map control to increase their mineral count. However, if Player 1 can bust out and expand, their superior worker count can spring them ahead once they spread the workers out. The Half Mineral method (I think) puts the trapped player on too much of a ticking time bomb- especially if they get trapped on one base. I definitely think inefficient workers allows for better comeback potential (which is always a good thing, in my opinion.)
On April 12 2015 11:32 bo1b wrote: Great post, but this graph is a little dodgy in its implications tbh
2:nd this. It looks like it's a huge difference from a glance, then you look at the y-axis... Or worse: most don't.
In general, when you make bar charts, the area is intuitively interpreted as "how much" of whatever you are plotting, so to give a fair impression, you should ALWAYS let the bar chart y-axis go all the way down to 0.
I love this article but I still just cannot appreciate the over emphasis on mineral income.
zerg is grabbing quick forth in zvt because of the gas income. (and if not they could just go for a macro hatch) Protoss grabbing new bases in sh zvp is for the boosted economy which is more on the gas. Terran mech needs 8 gas for sky mech transition (also more for the gas)
The weaker (or none of some would say) mineral advantage for getting more than 3 base doesn't appear to be a problem to me. Sh style still needs to move out for a 4th so they can maintain the 3 base mining efficiency for example.
It just doesn't lead to bases all around the map, which is supposed to mean engagement everywhere but in reality it just destroys the unit interaction for sc2 because mobility becomes a much bigger deal.
Excellent read, excellent data. I think a change along these lines will provide more incentive to expand and defense those expansions. I hope Blizzard takes this into consideration.
Very nice article. I would definitely go for the Double Harvest model as the first experiment. I like the paradigm shift from 'three base is the problem' to '24 nodes is 100% efficiency is the problem.' I hadn't thought of it quite like that, but it is so true.
However it is done, I think it is very important to create inefficiency into the economic system. If you have X patches, then 1:1 ratio should be 100% and every worker added after that should still gain income but at a noticiable less than 100% efficiency.
I think this is an absolute requirement for a worker-model RTS game. Because we have to think, if workers always mine at 100% efficiency, why exactly do we have workers at all rather than simply build income generating buildings? Buildings that passively generate income is a MUCH simpler economic model if we simply want 100% efficiency. (Or static inefficiency- like Battle for MiddleEarth.) Is retaining the worker-model just a nostalgic hold-over that Blizzard never bothered to update?
One reason to have a worker-model RTS is centred around harassment. Yes you can kill buildings as part of harassment. But being able to dodge storms, reaver shots, disrupter shots, tank shots or being able to flee form hellion or vulture harassment or lurker or DT drops is inherently more interesting.
But the second reason is to incentivize expanding. You could have passive resource collection buildings built around the map on nodes like the SupCom series. But an inefficient worker system above X minerals creates greater depth in an worker-model RTS. I think it maximizes the use of the particular economic system, rather than try borrow (and thereby cheapen, what a system that it is not.) It's not just that the system creates inefficiencies- it is a DYNAMIC inefficient system. Depending on how many bases and how you distribute your workers and how you save them from harass, your income will fluctuate. This is a FAR more interesting system than 100% efficient passive generation OR inefficient but static income generation. (If you are not familiar, depending on where you place buildings in Battle for Middle Earth, the income can be anywhere from 100% efficient to 0% efficient. But once placed, the efficiency will never change.) The dynamic changes is what makes the worker model so interesting and creating inefficiencies capitalizes on this dynamic economic model.
Hypothetical Example: Player 1 has 40 workers on two bases, but Player 2 has 32 workers on 3 bases. Player 2 has better income because their spread out workers are mining more efficiently. There is so much more flexibility in play- Player 1 got stuck on two bases, but can power workers and units to bust out, while Players 2 makes use of their map control to increase their mineral count. However, if Player 1 can bust out and expand, their superior worker count can spring them ahead once they spread the workers out. The Half Mineral method (I think) puts the trapped player on too much of a ticking time bomb- especially if they get trapped on one base. I definitely think inefficient workers allows for better comeback potential (which is always a good thing, in my opinion.)
Comeback potential is a really big thing we saw in our analysis as well.
The fact that 8 workers makes 63% as many minerals as 16 is huge for comebacks. You dont lose 50% of your income for losing 8 workers (like you would in hots) you lose 37.
Now RELATIVE to your opponent you are still behind, just by not as much. Also, it makes harassment want to be greedier and it has to do more damage to be worth it. Trading 4 hellions for 8 workers is bad on a 16 full line. Trading them for 8 workers on an 8 mineral line is HUGE.
I love this article but I still just cannot appreciate the over emphasis on mineral income.
zerg is grabbing quick forth in zvt because of the gas income. (and if not they could just go for a macro hatch) Protoss grabbing new bases in sh zvp is for the boosted economy which is more on the gas. Terran mech needs 8 gas for sky mech transition (also more for the gas)
The weaker (or none of some would say) mineral advantage for getting more than 3 base doesn't appear to be a problem to me. Sh style still needs to move out for a 4th so they can maintain the 3 base mining efficiency for example.
It just doesn't lead to bases all around the map, which is supposed to mean engagement everywhere but in reality it just destroys the unit interaction for sc2 because mobility becomes a much bigger deal.
Hmmm. think of it this way.
If the three base player is turtling and making bank, the other player might throw resources at them to try and pick away at their bank. The problem is that the turtle player making bank and spending it is probably trading more efficiently in the trades.
Since both players make the same income per minute, the turtle player is more efficient and eventually starves out the player who isn't turtling because of efficiency in defense. That is, the aggressor who is expanding to take half the map is using their bank to harass instead of letting the bank grow appropriately. You see this happen a lot in PvZ vs old Swarmhosts. The protoss slowly starves themselves if they attack the Zerg.
If your income is actually larger on more bases, you can still build a bank while being inefficient in trades against the opponent. The Protoss could spend 1k on a bunch of zealots and instead of losing 1k, they could make that 1k back FASTER than the turtle player. This means trades slowly benefit the player with a lot of bases. With more of an income, the player with more bases can afford to throw units away and maybe, slowly, create a timing for themselves. They might be able to whittle enough away from the opponent then with more money and production hit again before the opponent can fully stabilise.
Doing the "hit again" in SC2 right now happens by spending an entire bank all at once and hoping you do it before the other guy does. With much more income you might get more chances to hit again, or have so much more production that you can effectively reload faster (if not more often).
On April 12 2015 11:45 ETisME wrote: I love this article but I still just cannot appreciate the over emphasis on mineral income.
zerg is grabbing quick forth in zvt because of the gas income. (and if not they could just go for a macro hatch) Protoss grabbing new bases in sh zvp is for the boosted economy which is more on the gas. Terran mech needs 8 gas for sky mech transition (also more for the gas).
Well, that was true in BW as well- Zerg tended to expand a lot more because they are greedy gas guzzlers, but because of the ever increasing inefficiencies of a fully saturated mineral line, Zerg could actually have a substantially better (efficient) mineral income because they didn't need to have 20 drones per mineral line. So you'd actually tons of expansions and expansion hunting (or else drop play to punish over-expanding zergs.) It also meant they didn't mine minerals as fast- rather the opposite direction Blizzard is going with their Half Mineral idea. The drive for gas, complements the inefficient mineral system as spread out workers will garner more income.
(And then there was the fact that vespene gas never truly ran out, so into the late game you could actually be mining gas from 3-4 depleted bases and 2 fresh ones. I don't know how that would change SC2, but I still like that idea.)
One small critique of the original article. IMO whenever you have graphs you should make them start at 0 unless there's a very good reason not to. Anything else kind of defeats the purpose of having a graph in the first place. At first glance it seems like some of the differences in mining rates are WAY larger than they actually are because of this.
Awesome article though, I have expressed elsewhere that I think it's very well written. I hope Blizzard at least tries this system. Honestly my only reservation is that it's a bit haphazard and doesn't look as neat as the current system. Might make it very confusing for new players. Don't think this is a big issue though.
Also, what would the effect on the early game timings be due this change, because of slightly higher income at the start? Would you still get a gateway on 13 etc? Is this a big deal or not?
@ZeromuS I only came from sc2 background and I don't really see any issue where mech can also starve out the mobile player which is what wol was like, it lead to interesting situation where map gets mined out and I like how it slowly gain more grounds and th re mobile player slowly loses the momentum or needs to tech switch to a strong deathball.
(just like bio vs mech or sh in zvp where protoss goes warp prism into colossus deathball into skytoss)
the true problem of turtling in sc2 imo is solely that turtling player usually is either defending perfectly and doesn't break or collapsed extremely quickly because of a hole in defense.
Snute zvp for example if played perfectly is very hard to break but when protoss like hero who always find a crack, it collapsed right away.
I think lots of economy proposal are merely a change in the gameflow of sc2 and not really necessarily a good change if we don't get the units to compliment with the changes.
I guess I am just not convinced until I see the game played out with other proposed economy.
On April 12 2015 06:51 y0su wrote: The double harvest method just seems... "unnatural"
Just curious, what kind of impact would it have if all expansions (after natural) were gold? (6 patch). Worker pairing would mean you'd get optimal harvesting at 12 instead of 16 so your 4 base model would be 51 on minerals (24 on gas). 16+16+12+7 would be better? (perhaps the gold mineral return per trip and overall resources per gold patch could be modified as needed)
edit:maths fail
This isn't a 4 base model though, with this system, optimal efficiency is 1 worker per patch, and thus you continue to see gains for every base you take until such a time as you have more mineral patches than you have workers mining minerals. If you can manage to take 5, 6, or 7 bases you will see a return on them with this.
Maps don't really allow for it very easily, and holding those bases will be very hard, but the fact that there is a return means it will sometimes be worth the risk of spreading out, and make for more interesting strategic diversity.
Also, in case this gets brought up, the spike growth at the start of claiming a new base early on does lead to a faster return on expansions, but the math demonstrates that the return is only around 15-20% faster than it previously was, and isn't too much of a concern in terms of being overly rewarding too quickly.
On April 12 2015 12:17 ETisME wrote: @ZeromuS I only came from sc2 background and I don't really see any issue where mech can also starve out the mobile player which is what wol was like, it lead to interesting situation where map gets mined out and I like how it slowly gain more grounds and th re mobile player slowly loses the momentum or needs to tech switch to a strong deathball.
(just like bio vs mech or sh in zvp where protoss goes warp prism into colossus deathball into skytoss)
the true problem of turtling in sc2 imo is solely that turtling player usually is either defending perfectly and doesn't break or collapsed extremely quickly because of a hole in defense.
Snute zvp for example if played perfectly is very hard to break but when protoss like hero who always find a crack, it collapsed right away.
I think lots of economy proposal are merely a change in the gameflow of sc2 and not really necessarily a good change if we don't get the units to compliment with the changes.
I guess I am just not convinced until I see the game played out with other proposed economy.
I mean you can still starve out the other person as mech, it just creates a bigger window for the opponent to try and kill you after a trade and more options to do so starting from the mid game is all
P.S. While we may disagree, i do like this discussion. Got me thinking on other things more and more
Actually I don't think I disagree with you entirely, I certainly agree that worker inefficiency can work out nicely. I just find that even though your proposal may work, you didn't address the real problem in current LotV economy enough to persuade designer to start from scratch again. Oh on this point maybe I initially disagree with you, in the sense that I think all the problems you mentioned can be tuned away via some number changing with the current setup, but in the end I think I realize what fundamentally the problem is, albeit in a different way.
As I have said, you think along the lines that the economy in LotV starts the same as SC2 but the smaller patches just creates some artificial pressure to expand-or-die. I think it is beneficial to think the other way around though, as I said, think of those small patches as extras (so that the long term optimum worker per base is 8) and argue from there.
From our discussion, I think the key problem probably is not the 2:1 pairing (if you just halve the number of the patches, it should work the same as 1:1 pairing, which is the case you are suggesting), but probably the scaling beyond the optimum ratio. I think in BW this scaling is better and this is what allowed turtle player to stay in fewer bases.
In contrast, the scaling beyond 2:1 in SC2 is horrible. But from my perspective, the LotV economy compensates the turtling player by giving them temporary access to more patches, thus increase the effectiveness of having more than 8 workers in a base. In fact it is the same effective before the extra patches mine out-- that is too much according to your argument I believe. But you also say the "timed" turtle window is too short (which I agree), which states the opposite I think... so right now I still think this is a conception issue.
I mean, I view the problem this way. In BW, aggressively expanding player will have 8 workers per base. turtle player will have up to 16. In the new LotV scheme, to first order the effect is actually the same: the aggressive player if he wants to completely avoid mining out issues he should also expand after 8 workers per base. (Probably more, like 12 so the extra patches mine out at the same time as the regular ones). The turtling player can have 16, the reward is linear (so better than BW), but is on a timer. There are severe issues in the current beta, say how protoss should take 3rd base, but the problem is not fundamentally different when switching to a different economy.
The fundamental difference, in my opinion, is just that current scheme creates a new time scale when you go full turtle mode-- which may or may not create a more interesting dynamic, once the imbalances are ironed out. Ideally I imagine it should be the case such that comparing to BW, the turtling player gains more advantage initially but that advantage has to be used to push out not long after.
Oh, but from this point of view the real problem probably manifests itself in a different way: the reward for the aggressive player to mass expanding is lost. It just gains the privilege of not mining out any time soon, but this is not something that will snowball. Probably this is the real issue you are talking about. Since the reward of aggressively expanding is delayed in this scheme, it is hardly effective in a exponential growing economic world.
So in the end, everyone is pushed to expand more, but only up to a certain number of bases. The potential mining out issue is not a reason for the aggressively expanding player to expand more. That is the core problem of the current scheme I guess.
Yeah, basically I feel that expansions should reward people from the start.
If you want greater rewards and scaling on turtling bases you can still do that with a similar scheme to Double Harvest, just apply double mining and accept the tradeoff of pulling early workers being really negative and harmful especially in mirrors (pvp 1 gate proxies, early pools ZvZ).
P.S. While we may disagree, i do like this discussion. Got me thinking on other things more and more
Actually I don't think I disagree with you entirely, I certainly agree that worker inefficiency can work out nicely. I just find that even though your proposal may work, you didn't address the real problem in current LotV economy enough to persuade designer to start from scratch again. Oh on this point maybe I initially disagree with you, in the sense that I think all the problems you mentioned can be tuned away via some number changing with the current setup, but in the end I think I realize what fundamentally the problem is, albeit in a different way.
As I have said, you think along the lines that the economy in LotV starts the same as SC2 but the smaller patches just creates some artificial pressure to expand-or-die. I think it is beneficial to think the other way around though, as I said, think of those small patches as extras (so that the long term optimum worker per base is 8) and argue from there.
From our discussion, I think the key problem probably is not the 2:1 pairing (if you just halve the number of the patches, it should work the same as 1:1 pairing, which is the case you are suggesting), but probably the scaling beyond the optimum ratio. I think in BW this scaling is better and this is what allowed turtle player to stay in fewer bases.
In contrast, the scaling beyond 2:1 in SC2 is horrible. But from my perspective, the LotV economy compensates the turtling player by giving them temporary access to more patches, thus increase the effectiveness of having more than 8 workers in a base. In fact it is the same effective before the extra patches mine out-- that is too much according to your argument I believe. But you also say the "timed" turtle window is too short (which I agree), which states the opposite I think... so right now I still think this is a conception issue.
I mean, I view the problem this way. In BW, aggressively expanding player will have 8 workers per base. turtle player will have up to 16. In the new LotV scheme, to first order the effect is actually the same: the aggressive player if he wants to completely avoid mining out issues he should also expand after 8 workers per base. (Probably more, like 12 so the extra patches mine out at the same time as the regular ones). The turtling player can have 16, the reward is linear (so better than BW), but is on a timer. There are severe issues in the current beta, say how protoss should take 3rd base, but the problem is not fundamentally different when switching to a different economy.
The fundamental difference, in my opinion, is just that current scheme creates a new time scale when you go full turtle mode-- which may or may not create a more interesting dynamic, once the imbalances are ironed out. Ideally I imagine it should be the case such that comparing to BW, the turtling player gains more advantage initially but that advantage has to be used to push out not long after.
Oh, but from this point of view the real problem probably manifests itself in a different way: the reward for the aggressive player to mass expanding is lost. It just gains the privilege of not mining out any time soon, but this is not something that will snowball. Probably this is the real issue you are talking about. Since the reward of aggressively expanding is delayed in this scheme, it is hardly effective in a exponential growing economic world.
So in the end, everyone is pushed to expand more, but only up to a certain number of bases. The potential mining out issue is not a reason for the aggressively expanding player to expand more. That is the core problem of the current scheme I guess.
If you think about the 4 patches as extras, then you make new bases too rewarding to secure relative to not expanding too quickly, and that's not good. Expanding gives you 8 patches for a while, not expanding gives you negative 4. You see the problem here? Since Starcraft is a game of production, in which people hit timings based on weak and strong points, you die really hard if you fall behind in production without making up for it in equivalent tech. If you can't expand rapidly, you don't just fall behind your opponent's production, you fall WAY behind.
You also make infrastructure development extremely difficult to implement properly: if you spend your money quickly enough to have things, you wind up not being able to afford your production when your bases lose patches. This creates massive inefficiencies and is a very bad thing to do, strategically speaking. The alternative is to build less, but that gets you killed when you attempt to expand.
You also have to consider the major change to gas to mineral ratio, and the reduced gas values that exist on geysers as is.
Huge props to ZeromuS and the TL strategy team for this one! An excellent read, I really hope we get to try this in the beta and not just as an extension mod!
P.S. While we may disagree, i do like this discussion. Got me thinking on other things more and more
Actually I don't think I disagree with you entirely, I certainly agree that worker inefficiency can work out nicely. I just find that even though your proposal may work, you didn't address the real problem in current LotV economy enough to persuade designer to start from scratch again. Oh on this point maybe I initially disagree with you, in the sense that I think all the problems you mentioned can be tuned away via some number changing with the current setup, but in the end I think I realize what fundamentally the problem is, albeit in a different way.
As I have said, you think along the lines that the economy in LotV starts the same as SC2 but the smaller patches just creates some artificial pressure to expand-or-die. I think it is beneficial to think the other way around though, as I said, think of those small patches as extras (so that the long term optimum worker per base is 8) and argue from there.
I apologize, but I just have a lot of problems with this post.
From our discussion, I think the key problem probably is not the 2:1 pairing (if you just halve the number of the patches, it should work the same as 1:1 pairing, which is the case you are suggesting), but probably the scaling beyond the optimum ratio. I think in BW this scaling is better and this is what allowed turtle player to stay in fewer bases.
No, it isn't. There are still 8 workers mining at 100% efficiency on 4 nodes. That is a 2:1 ratio.
The scaling is a direct result of worker pairing, as we PROVED in the article. Worker pairing creates a linear economic growth up until 16 workers on 8 patches, and then plateaus. Past 3 bases (24 nodes), you need at least 9 extra workers on minerals to see gains on the investment. In a No Worker Pairing model, you immediately have more income by transferring workers from mineral lines that have more than 8. This produces a stronger scaling model than the current HotS economy.
This is like the riddle of the disappearing coin: 3 men go into a shop to buy an item, which costs $30. Each of the men contributes $10. The shopkeeper realizes the price is actually $25 and he's overcharged them, so he gives each of the men back $1, but since they can't divide the last $2 evenly, they tip the shopkeeper. Because each of the men got back $1, it's as if they spent $9 each.
9x3 = $27 Add the other $2 that the shopkeeper kept, and you have $29. Where did the other dollar go?
The answer is that trying to change 10x3 to 9x3 is faulty logic. Your example is based off of trying to turn the economy into something it is not, creating fuzzy math.
In contrast, the scaling beyond 2:1 in SC2 is horrible. But from my perspective, the LotV economy compensates the turtling player by giving them temporary access to more patches, thus increase the effectiveness of having more than 8 workers in a base. In fact it is the same effective before the extra patches mine out-- that is too much according to your argument I believe. But you also say the "timed" turtle window is too short (which I agree), which states the opposite I think... so right now I still think this is a conception issue.
I mean, I view the problem this way. In BW, aggressively expanding player will have 8 workers per base. turtle player will have up to 16. In the new LotV scheme, to first order the effect is actually the same: the aggressive player if he wants to completely avoid mining out issues he should also expand after 8 workers per base. (Probably more, like 12 so the extra patches mine out at the same time as the regular ones). The turtling player can have 16, the reward is linear (so better than BW), but is on a timer. There are severe issues in the current beta, say how protoss should take 3rd base, but the problem is not fundamentally different when switching to a different economy.
First of all, BW had differing mineral patch numbers per bases, so just try to keep that in mind when you're critically comparing the two; otherwise you sound like someone who never played BW at all and is just trying to make a nostalgia argument.
Even if you have 100% mining efficiency when you take your 3rd base, you still have LESS PATCHES to mine from (remember, that's literally 50% less income per base every time the limited minerals mine out). There is absolutely no advantage for someone to turtle, no matter how much you adjust the "turtle timing window". Unless, of course, you extend it far enough to simply encompass the 3 bases we're already using in the HotS model, in which case, the change has done literally nothing except promote slightly earlier 4th bases.
The fundamental difference, in my opinion, is just that current scheme creates a new time scale when you go full turtle mode-- which may or may not create a more interesting dynamic, once the imbalances are ironed out. Ideally I imagine it should be the case such that comparing to BW, the turtling player gains more advantage initially but that advantage has to be used to push out not long after.
Oh, but from this point of view the real problem probably manifests itself in a different way: the reward for the aggressive player to mass expanding is lost. It just gains the privilege of not mining out any time soon, but this is not something that will snowball. Probably this is the real issue you are talking about. Since the reward of aggressively expanding is delayed in this scheme, it is hardly effective in a exponential growing economic world.
So in the end, everyone is pushed to expand more, but only up to a certain number of bases. The potential mining out issue is not a reason for the aggressively expanding player to expand more. That is the core problem of the current scheme I guess.
This part I agree with. I still think you got to it in a roundabout way, but at least we have similar conclusions. The biggest issue I have with the current system is that it does not reward or give incentive to expand, but rather forces the player to expand out of necessity. I honestly don't think that any change will fix it with worker pairing, no matter how much you adjust numbers on this half patch system. No matter what you do to try and convince people to take more bases, there's absolutely no reason to saturate more than about 16-24 nodes.
Actually, now that I think about it, what IS the argument you're trying to make here? You went out of your way to try and disprove that mining efficiency had an effect on expanding, and then say that the current system is flawed. So what then is your actual proposal? If it's not that mining efficiency prevents players from being rewarded by taking expansions, what IS preventing those players from being rewarded?
The problem is as I've mentioned in many threads so far is that the "macro" is super easy in SC2. With the "improved" UI, which is basically word for ruined, word for crapped on, etc... it means that everyone and their mothers are pro level in terms of managing their economy and creating units.
All you have to do is press 3 or whatever your keybind is for production buildings and press the key for which unit you want to produce and whoala you have 10 units building in like 2 seconds, you are now a pro able to beat even the best of SC1 pros in terms of macro.
Thus the need for more bases and more expansions and whatnot so that players have more to do and don't just sit in their 2 bases for 10 minutes, mass a huge deathball and then A-move across the map, which is what happens in SC2 most of the time.
So the solution is not to have more bases that don't do anything, the solution is to make the UI harder. Remove keybinding of several buildings to one key, remove smart casting, remove the "macro" mechanics, which are essentially easy mode game mechanics. The "macro" mechanics don't really punish bad players, but they do reward mediocrity.
So unless things like these are removed from the game and the skill ceiling is increased, SC2 will never be as good as SC1, it will never have the viewerbase, it will never have the popularity, it will never be as fun as SC1.
This is a really excellent, excellent article. This is the kind of constructive criticism that the SC2 community needs much more of. I especially appreciate the way you bring up the cons of your positions, give and respond to counterarguments, and give options. Reading the article, I found many of my critiques anticipated and answered along the way--and this is very much to the credit of the TL strategy team. Bravo. Bravo!
That being said, if there is a critique that still occurs to me, it would relate to this quote:
While it might not be entertaining to watch players sitting on just one, two, or three bases and not moving out, the strategy should remain viable, the strategic option should remain open in the name of strategic diversity.
The devil's advocate in me wants to say "Why should it remain open?" Strategic diversity is not an unlimited value--it is essentially a limited good, and the proper level (especially in relation to particular strategies) has to be determined in conversation with other values like entertainment value, game flow, etc.
Your criticisms of the current LotV economic model are valid, but they're also the weakest part of the article, since there is so little data on this model, counter-arguments are largely not dealt with, etc. So, I guess the question that remains in my mind after this is "Well, which economic model is more entertaining? Which one--taking into account all the factors that make up Starcraft as a game and an esport--is ultimately better?"
This is not to say that you haven't dealt with this objection at all. Obviously, all of your other arguments and considerations about game flow, strategies, etc, are really arguments about why your model is more entertaining and ultimately more preferable. Nevertheless, it does seem to me that, given the lack of data, the question remains open.
Which, I suppose, is just another way of saying that testing is needed. So I do really hope that your idea is at least heavily tested by Blizzard in-house, if not also community-wide in the Beta. Your arguments are really quite convincing, but we really need to test this more in practice.
really cool idea. I thought the worker start and mineral patch in LOTV was pretty good(compared to HOTS) but always felt there needed to be something a bit more. This is actually a really good solution but I wonder how it will affect the unit design Blizzard has prepped(all 3 races seem to have to play aggressive in LOTV now) for the Beta based off of their "take a base real quick or you starve to death"
On April 12 2015 13:30 Captain Peabody wrote: This is a really excellent, excellent article. This is the kind of constructive criticism that the SC2 community needs much more of. I especially appreciate the way you bring up the cons of your positions, give and respond to counterarguments, and give options. Reading the article, I found many of my critiques anticipated and answered along the way--and this is very much to the credit of the TL strategy team. Bravo. Bravo!
That being said, if there is a critique that still occurs to me, it would relate to this quote:
While it might not be entertaining to watch players sitting on just one, two, or three bases and not moving out, the strategy should remain viable, the strategic option should remain open in the name of strategic diversity.
The devil's advocate in me wants to say "Why should it remain open?" Strategic diversity is not an unlimited value--it is essentially a limited good, and the proper level (especially in relation to particular strategies) has to be determined in conversation with other values like entertainment value, game flow, etc.
Your criticisms of the current LotV economic model are valid, but they're also the weakest part of the article, since there is so little data on this model, counter-arguments are largely not dealt with, etc. So, I guess the question that remains in my mind after this is "Well, which economic model is more entertaining? Which one--taking into account all the factors that make up Starcraft as a game and an esport--is ultimately better?"
This is not to say that you haven't dealt with this objection at all. Obviously, all of your other arguments and considerations about game flow, strategies, etc, are really arguments about why your model is more entertaining and ultimately more preferable. Nevertheless, it does seem to me that, given the lack of data, the question remains open.
Which, I suppose, is just another way of saying that testing is needed. So I do really hope that your idea is at least heavily tested by Blizzard in-house, if not also community-wide in the Beta. Your arguments are really quite convincing, but we really need to test this more in practice.
Again, though, well done.
The criticism is on the Worker Pairing model, which is the system LotV uses. By claiming that the Worker Pairing model is inferior to the No Worker Pairing model, he is essentially saying that no amount of balancing or tweaking the patch numbers will actually reward expanding beyond 24 nodes.
On April 12 2015 13:30 Captain Peabody wrote: This is a really excellent, excellent article. This is the kind of constructive criticism that the SC2 community needs much more of. I especially appreciate the way you bring up the cons of your positions, give and respond to counterarguments, and give options. Reading the article, I found many of my critiques anticipated and answered along the way--and this is very much to the credit of the TL strategy team. Bravo. Bravo!
That being said, if there is a critique that still occurs to me, it would relate to this quote:
While it might not be entertaining to watch players sitting on just one, two, or three bases and not moving out, the strategy should remain viable, the strategic option should remain open in the name of strategic diversity.
The devil's advocate in me wants to say "Why should it remain open?" Strategic diversity is not an unlimited value--it is essentially a limited good, and the proper level (especially in relation to particular strategies) has to be determined in conversation with other values like entertainment value, game flow, etc.
Your criticisms of the current LotV economic model are valid, but they're also the weakest part of the article, since there is so little data on this model, counter-arguments are largely not dealt with, etc. So, I guess the question that remains in my mind after this is "Well, which economic model is more entertaining? Which one--taking into account all the factors that make up Starcraft as a game and an esport--is ultimately better?"
This is not to say that you haven't dealt with this objection at all. Obviously, all of your other arguments and considerations about game flow, strategies, etc, are really arguments about why your model is more entertaining and ultimately more preferable. Nevertheless, it does seem to me that, given the lack of data, the question remains open.
Which, I suppose, is just another way of saying that testing is needed. So I do really hope that your idea is at least heavily tested by Blizzard in-house, if not also community-wide in the Beta. Your arguments are really quite convincing, but we really need to test this more in practice.
Again, though, well done.
Well, it remains viable for a limited time. It means a player on 3 bases can stay on 3 bases for a while to commit to something else other than expanding, but if he takes too long, because the economic system now rewards going up to 6 bases with the same 48 workers you had on minerals on 3 bases, the player who turtles on 3 bases too long will find himself badly outmatched. He can play defensive for essential tech and then hit a timing or then take a fourth or something, but he's still on a clock, just a much more forgiving clock.
I wouldn't expect to see good players let you get away with a 3 base turtle for a long time in this system.
The article actually left out a lot of other criticisms about the currently tested economic model because that conversation goes into tangents that are complex and would take a long time to go over, and this article is already very long.
For example, the current model being tested punishes teching, and overly rewards units that are powerful early on in the game, like the cyclone.
I would legitimately accept this as an academic paper. For further study I'd be interested in looking at the ramifications on gas, and particularly if it needs to be scaled or reformulated as well. Likewise I'd like to see a proposal for build orders using your model so that we could have a better idea of how significantly this would necessitate unit/balance changes. Finally, a map makers opinion may be helpful as you discussed the need for wider base defense and with how quickly small engagements tend to end I anticipate the map makers finding new challenges.
I like this. A lot. I've nominated it for TL hall of fame (and second the nomination here Kappa), but my biggest concern is how much this will necessitate unit changes. Even though this is a fantastic idea, if Blizzard has to essentially make a new game I don't see it happening, but maybe something really interesting will open up in the process. Good read. 10/10
On April 12 2015 13:45 Whitewing wrote: The article actually left out a lot of other criticisms about the currently tested economic model because that conversation goes into tangents that are complex and would take a long time to go over, and this article is already very long.
For example, the current model being tested punishes teching, and overly rewards units that are powerful early on in the game, like the cyclone.
On April 12 2015 13:45 Whitewing wrote: The article actually left out a lot of other criticisms about the currently tested economic model because that conversation goes into tangents that are complex and would take a long time to go over, and this article is already very long.
For example, the current model being tested punishes teching, and overly rewards units that are powerful early on in the game, like the cyclone.
I wouldn't mind a longer analytical article.
If we included analysis on all of the discussion that took place regarding this, the document would be 3 to 4 times larger, as a conservative estimate. We focused on the important parts.
On April 12 2015 13:45 Whitewing wrote: The article actually left out a lot of other criticisms about the currently tested economic model because that conversation goes into tangents that are complex and would take a long time to go over, and this article is already very long.
For example, the current model being tested punishes teching, and overly rewards units that are powerful early on in the game, like the cyclone.
I wouldn't mind a longer analytical article.
If we included analysis on all of the discussion that took place regarding this, the document would be 3 to 4 times larger, as a conservative estimate. We focused on the important parts.
Well the 12 worker start is an article itself, we can discuss other impacts on tech related concerns there too I am sure
Short of it is:
If you have fewer minerals it means you need really efficient armies to expand (gas) or a lot of map control (speedlings for example).
Relative tech timings are also changed in LotV right now which creates other concerns.
In the end if we change the economy all of those are gone
Also making a longer article results in it taking longer to release which lets ideas of the current LotV economy become more and more entrenched.
On April 12 2015 14:05 Whitewing wrote: If we included analysis on all of the discussion that took place regarding this, the document would be 3 to 4 times larger, as a conservative estimate. We focused on the important parts.
Yeah the other, uh, "popular" article on LOTV got a lot of complaints for not being concise so, you know, there's a lot to be said for focusing on the central issue. Just personally speaking this kind of stuff is like candy to me. Always welcome to some more.
Is defending really going to be that impacted. Yes you won't be able to sit on 2-3 base for half the game, that doesn't mean there won't be a defensive side. It just won't work the same way it does in HotS.
Can we at least give this model a chance? It feels like people will never be happy. The beta has been out for a week. A week.
Edit Actually I will add more. Here is why I don't see why defending is going to be a problem in LotV. Even if both players chose an aggressive strategy one will always have to be the defender. I will give an extreme example. HotS 2 rax vs 9 pool (Bomber vs Shine). Even though you chose to be aggressive the zerg's strat is just better at it, so you have to defend. Again this is an extreme example, but I don't see why the concept won't apply. Let's say player A and player B both go for a "Deny you 3rd/4th base" strat, but players A's strategy is better at it or his race is more suited for it, player B realizes that and decides to defend while teching. By teching I mean go to the next step on the three not get everything. Once he has that next step in theory he should have a window to do something, be it attack or expand and tech further.
The only strategy I see being impacted by this economic change is the protoss "sit of 3 base and get everything" strat. And I don't think many people will miss that.
Now I don't have access to the beta, so maybe there is something I just don't understand, but I just can't comprehend how defensive play would be that impacted. It just won't be the same it is now.
I like that the author put a lot of effort into the article. And I'm sure some people at Blizzard read it. But unfortunately, Blizzard won't address the problem, cause they don't know what the fuck they're doing.
On April 12 2015 14:32 Shinespark wrote: I like that the author put a lot of effort into the article. And I'm sure some people at Blizzard read it. But unfortunately, Blizzard won't address the problem, cause they don't know what the fuck they're doing.
& SGTK: How can we expect blizzard to change things for the better if we keep believing that they will never change anything? Blizzard has shown that they are becoming more open to things, so we should at least put in effort from our own. It would be better to keep the attitude positive and constructive.
Also great job to zermous, TL strat, and others. I think this is one of the most well written and most important articles in starcraft I've read yet.
It's clear that the new economic model must be one that features diminishing returns when the number of mining workers exceeds the number of available patches. It's what makes BW what it is - a game of figuring out what you can and can't get away with, and figuring out how to punish your opponent who is trying to cut corners. This back and forth struggle forces efficiency of the greatest magnitude, and is what makes a truly strong RTS game. It synthesizes the strategic evolution which is so finely honed and yet still evolves today in BW.
Ok, so I went back through the thread and saw that you already discussed the cut y-axis on the bar plots. I didn't read the thread before posting, sorry about that. I assume that is why you ignore the last 4 or 5 people that pointed out the mistake.
I feel that your most elaborate reply to the issue, that a lot of people raise, is this post:
On April 12 2015 07:36 Teoita wrote: The whole point is that the raw difference, about 100 minerals per minute, is the same no matter what the zoom out is...
But isn't the point of a graph is to visualize the data, which, as you say, is the same no matter the zoom? How the data comes across through the visualization, however, changes greatly based on the zoom level, right? I'm asking out of actual curiosity and not to be cocky...
I'm not gonna state again that I do understand what you are doing and why. I am yet to get confirmation that you understand what I mean, though. Do you? Am I making sense? :s
I didn't think this would be such a big deal to me but alas...
I made the graph.
To make a line graph is unneccesary. I am trying to simply reinforce the text above it with an image. It is presented in the context of the text, not standalone.
I agree that the zoomin may look disproportionate, for this reason i decided to add the data labels to the bars.
I agree that on its own if you completely ignore the Y axis it looks skewed. I agree if you ignore the text time image is easy to take out of context.
There is however no better way to show two different numbers one compared to another than through a bar chart.
So, lets say i do a pie chart - thats not helpful at all. The area graph is also not helpful nor is a line graph because i am not showing a trend, i am simply showing a state - a single period of time.
Due to the fact that the graphs are so similar in height with a large Y axis, you wouldn't see it very well.
If i was comparing multiple base worker counts over time as a comparison over time i would have used either a bar graph with 2 bars, or I would have used an area graph.
the bar chart is the best way to show this visually. And i tried to deal with the zoom in disproportionate presentations through 1) data labels 2) the text surrounding the image.
I felt it was perfectly fine, in context to use this image. So I did. Hope that answers your questions.
While the focus of this article appears to be on resource collection rates, I should mention an additional consequence of reduced-efficiency models in the de-valuing of workers that operate below 100% efficiency. That is to say, in the case of having 16 workers on 8 mineral nodes, if all workers after the 8th work at below 100% efficiency, the impact of losing those additional (#9~16) workers within a single mining base is dampened. This would require additional considerations on the value of worker harassment, as well as the ability of players "behind" on workers to make comebacks, due to the reduced benefits of having a stronger worker force while on a similar number of bases. It provides a possible approach for slowing the snowball effect of economic discrepancies: making the greatest use of additional workers requires taking more bases, with the resulting increases in vulnerability, giving players who are behind in worker count ways to come back. The player with more workers can also choose not to expand as much, resulting in a safer but smaller advantage. Considerations for race, personal style, and map architecture are thus in play as well.
I believe I do discuss this point at some point, or at least the devaluing of workers and greater comeback potential as well.
So while it almost always is a bad idea to cut a bar chart (I really can't come up with any exceptions tbh), as I explained in my previous post (people read the area as the "amount of stuff"), there are ofc always exception and you are right that it depends on what point you want to make. So let me explain in detail why this plot is a bad idea in this specific case.
First, what people see when they look at the plots, is "whoa, that red bar is a lot larger than the blue bar!". This goes for anyone, no matter the experience or background or anything. The first thing you notice when you look at the plot is that there is a lot more red than blue. Is that the point you want to get across? Probably yes, as that would fit with the story you are trying to tell, so you are probably happy with the plot giving that impression. It is definitely misleading though, as the difference is like 5%. So it gives the impression that there is a huge relative difference, while it is actually very small, which is misleading no matter how you see it.
You say that they point is to show that they are 100 minerals different, focusing that it is important that they are different at all, and that the fact that it is a difference between 2000 and 2100 is of less importance. Ok, that's fine. But if you are just after the difference, not the absolute values, then plot the difference... A single number. With two bars you need to read the y-axis and take the difference to find the difference. So it doesn't do a good job of showing how big the difference is. It shows that there is a difference, but the plot would look exactly the same if the difference was 1000 minerals, 100 minerals or 1 mineral, so the visual bars don't help at all to distinguish that difference.
So the point you actually want to make, or SHOULD want to make at least, is to show how big the difference is compared to other things. For example, how many mining drones does it correspond to? How big is the difference compared to a saturated base? How big is the difference compared to the other comparisons you are doing in the analysis? So a much better way to illustrate your point would be a plot, bar-chart is fine, of "gained income" from different things. I threw one together in an online plotting program I just googled, but something along the line of this You now get a clear understanding of how big the difference is, and you would immediately spot if the difference is 1 mineral/minute or 1000 minerals per minute.
Increase mineral mining time to 5 seconds and increase minerals returned to base to 8. Also increase supply cap to 250. Voila, all of SC2's economy problems solved.
On April 12 2015 15:14 Loccstana wrote: Increase mineral mining time to 5 seconds and increase minerals returned to base to 8. Also increase supply cap to 250. Voila, all of SC2's economy problems solved.
I'm curious what would happen if the supply cap was increased a bit.
Bravo! However, a couple of your graphs were a bit dishonest, especially that graph that started the y-axis range at 2100. You've got to at least justify why you'd start it at that point.
I had a notion of how to deal with this efficiency problem without even removing worker pairing + Show Spoiler +
Mineral staleness Each mineral node returns 6 minerals per trip if fresh. Once it has been mined, it becomes stale for between 2.7 and 5.4 seconds, during which time any mining returns only 4 minerals. I'll dig up some graphs later, but I remember the yields being on the whole quite similar to double harvesting, in that they had a really big boost compared to vanilla HotS at 8 workers, but wasn't a whole lot bigger at 16, and wasn't far off from parity at 24 per base.
Nice post. I agree with much of what's been said in the OP and elsewhere about the three base cap, and hope Blizz looks at the issue closer.
I agree with the complaints about that one graph. A bar chart with 2 bars where you can't tell the size of the bars relative to either 0 or a third bar doesn't help inform people any more than just giving the numbers. One way log scales can be useful is that changing the numbers represented by two bars by the same percentage changes the length of the two bars by the same amount.
It doesn't matter as much, but ideally the line graphs should be bar or dot graphs since you can only have a whole number of workers. It would be easier to read. Colorblind people might have problems with some of them too.
There doesn't seem like there'd be much income advantage in taking more than 6 bases with only 48 workers mining minerals, and I'd like to be able to be on 8 mining bases and have a big army. Would this proposal work well with a raising of the supply cap to 250 or 300?
On April 12 2015 13:21 SC2John wrote: No, it isn't. There are still 8 workers mining at 100% efficiency on 4 nodes. That is a 2:1 ratio.
The scaling is a direct result of worker pairing, as we PROVED in the article. Worker pairing creates a linear economic growth up until 16 workers on 8 patches, and then plateaus. Past 3 bases (24 nodes), you need at least 9 extra workers on minerals to see gains on the investment. In a No Worker Pairing model, you immediately have more income by transferring workers from mineral lines that have more than 8. This produces a stronger scaling model than the current HotS economy.
No, I am not saying there's no 2:1 scaling, just saying the scaling itself does not mean much. It really does not matter whether it's optimum to have 2 workers per patch or one in the vacuum. The problem is not that it scales linearly until 16 workers/base; in BW it scales linearly up to 8 workers a base as well. It is this couples with the 200 supply upper limit, as well as the poor scaling after 2 workers/patch. In the above example with 4 patches, I am just saying that yes you still have a 2:1 ratio, but now you will NOT have a 3 base saturation as a result. I dunno whether you want to say your point is then it is a 6 base saturation, but in any case it will not happen in practice as no one will expand that much.
So the bottom line is, in the vacuum it is obvious 2:1 ratio alone will not cause 3-base saturation. You need the supply limit, poor scaling after optimum saturation, and 8 patches a base to reach that conclusion. LotV sort of modifies how there is 8 patches in a base, thus the conclusion is questionable, and IMO not well explained in the article.
This is like the riddle of the disappearing coin: 3 men go into a shop to buy an item, which costs $30. Each of the men contributes $10. The shopkeeper realizes the price is actually $25 and he's overcharged them, so he gives each of the men back $1, but since they can't divide the last $2 evenly, they tip the shopkeeper. Because each of the men got back $1, it's as if they spent $9 each.
9x3 = $27 Add the other $2 that the shopkeeper kept, and you have $29. Where did the other dollar go?
The answer is that trying to change 10x3 to 9x3 is faulty logic. Your example is based off of trying to turn the economy into something it is not, creating fuzzy math.
Not sure what you want to say, but here you should say $27-$2=$25, so every one paid $9 for the $25 price and $2 tip. Nothing strange here. If you want to add up to $30, it is $9*3+$1*3=$30, where $1 is the money everyone gets back. There is nothing fuzzy here. If anything, it's your mind that is fuzzy, not the math. $9*3+$2=$29 is faulty, not fuzzy.
First of all, BW had differing mineral patch numbers per bases, so just try to keep that in mind when you're critically comparing the two; otherwise you sound like someone who never played BW at all and is just trying to make a nostalgia argument.
As a matter of fact I have never played BW. I only know about its economy through articles like this. How does that matter? A theoretical question can be asked whether I have played with it or not.
Actually, now that I think about it, what IS the argument you're trying to make here? You went out of your way to try and disprove that mining efficiency had an effect on expanding, and then say that the current system is flawed. So what then is your actual proposal? If it's not that mining efficiency prevents players from being rewarded by taking expansions, what IS preventing those players from being rewarded?
What I am saying is that now I do think the current system is indeed flawed. But I don't think the argument written in the article is sufficient to show it. Also the way the article spent time on various topics makes it very easy for Blizzard engineers to think it is another what if article that spent little time really thinking about the current system. As I have said, you need 8 patches, 200 supply, optimal 2:1 ratio, and horrible scaling afterwards to reach that conclusion. It is not obvious at all from the argument and data provided in the article such that the current LotV system fits that description.
Great article, would have perefered Blizzard expimenting with this econ over their current model. Yes significant balance changes are needed, but that's the case in both economies
On April 12 2015 16:10 Hider wrote: Good article, but I do wonder what happens to income rate past the 16h worker?
I told Zeromuss that there should be a higher focus past the first 16 workers and I kind of got that, compared to how it was before at least. To check that info you must download the Excel sheet, OR check this link.
I spent the last couple hours playing what games I was able to find on the Double Harvesting mod, all against random opponents that joined because I couldn't find anyone to play around my skill level.
The pacing and income felt much more natural, and early game income boost seemed to accelerate your build just enough to get it developing quickly.
As I said, I wasn't playing against opponents good enough to know the advantages of having more bases, and I only played a few games.
However, the flow of the economy felt significantly better, and maynarding made a noticeable difference in income. I'm not seeing any significant drawbacks to this model. The work put into this article is astounding, well done. I really hope Blizzard is willing to test these changes instead of the current LotV model.
We saw early on in the beta a positive response to the way LotV economy was working, but it very quickly turned around and many players are saying that the changes to units are more positive than the changes to the economy. Obviously the economy was forcing a playstyle that we'd like to see more of. These changes encourage that play style, which is what we really need.
Turtle play has a place in SC, and should continue to be viable to the extent that you aren't completely overwhelmed economically by your opponent. If the other player can get a significant economic advantage while you turtle you will be more encouraged to harass to stay in the game.
Other members can/have better explained how defensive play had a place in BW, so I'll leave that to them, but I just wanted to say that I'm all for these changes. And from what I've played it feels like a much more interesting economic model both than the proposed LotV changes, as well as the current HotS model.
Edit: A lot of people have already touched on the Bob vs. Chris graph, so I won't harp on it too much, but I will say this. Having the y axis start from 0 would actually better serve to prove the point that you are trying to make. By seeing the tiny difference in income from a 4 base to 3 base player (with the 3 base player actually ahead in this situation) you better illustrate the flaw in the current system. Where I think we all agree the player with 4 base mining should have noticeably higher income.
I still hold the opinion that rewarding/punishing is a conception issue, rather than a real one. What I read from your reply is that the 'punishing' feeling comes from the non-sustainability or the requirement to expand at a timing. I can agree to that, but that is different from all economic considerations you are talking about in the article.
The "reward vs punishing"-phrase is definitely meaningless in itself, and I am not sure how many people actually understands what it means.
However, the difference between a BW'ish economy and a "force-bases" economy is that the former gives the players an opportunity to stay on fewer bases.
Remember that 3 vs 4 vs 5-base income graph in the article? Think about the consequences here. Let's say you are zerg and supermobile, would you be interested in trying to get 5 quick bases? Yeh why not?. However, let's say you play an immobile protoss style or tank-heavy mech. Are you gonna go for a quick 5 bases? Unlikely as you cannot defend that many bases. In fact, you are more likely to stay on 3 bases as the extra benefit of being on 4 bases vs 3 bases isn't that signifciant.
So this means you get scenarios where 3 vs 5 base is very possible, and as a consequence, the game gets balanced around this --> Immobile units more cost efficient than mobile units.
In LOTV, however, there is a signficiant difference as everyone is forced to take bases a ton faster. One problem with this scenario can be illustrated with the following example:
--> You fall behind in army strenght --> You can't maintain the current 3-base rate --> Forced down on 2 bases --> 33% less econ --> Can't reclaim 3rd base (no way of cathing up) --> Snowball effect into GG
In BW, however, if you temporarily get behind as the mobile player you can still be up on bases (since its difficult for the mobile player to punish it immediately). As the immobile player, you can get your 3rd delayed and still have a solid income on 2 bases while getting more units out which allows you to reclaim 3rd (since you scale better as the immobile player). Thus, BW has a significant lower snowball effect than the LOTV-economy (which is good).
With a LOTV economy, the entire game is balanced around everything being mobile!!! Thus, there are no reasons to expect you will be able to reclaim an expansion.
And let's think about what would happen to the gameplay if we attempted to balance it around the immobile player constantly being on 2 bases vs mobile player constantly being on 3 active bases. First of, that would require a significant difference in cost efficiency. Secondly, it would create every incentive in the world for the immobile player to turtle as much as possible. The reward for investing into harass is very small as he in that proces delays his own expansion timing.
E.g. if you play mech and want to secure a new base, you need a critical tank account. But investing into Hellions and Medivacs delays that. So the mech player is focussing all of his ressources on massing defensive Siege Tanks and dumping minerals into Turrets + walling off everywhere to prevent any type of armytrading. In the midgame, such a gameplay style has never been interesting as it simply results in very stale gameplay (in the late game it can be cool though).
In a BW'ish econ, the immobile player can stay on fewer bases which allows him to invest into aggressive options. He isn't as heavily rewarded for acquiring new bases as fast possible as the real income assymetry is between a 5base vs 3 base econ. (An immobile player could perhaps acquire a faster 4 base, but he cannot spread him self out over 5 bases)
On top of that, his aggressive options are actually more likely to do damage than under a HOTS-economy as the enemy is spread thinner (more opportunites to do damage). FYI: : I do agree this isn't a treatise. Its instead a well-written assesment of income rates between different economic system. But it definitely goes quickly over the whole incentive/reward/punishment-part, which I think is the most complicated part of the economy.
What if you halved the number of patches down to 4 and doubled the return per trip and doubled the minerals per patch while keeping worker pairing. Would that achieve a similar effect?
Very very nice article but yea, few people adressed that "pushing back into BW-ish model" is actually rly real and visible there ... I mean simple bandaid would be shut down SC2 and just rework current BroodWar >.>. Which would be cool
If you want expending to be rewarding, than turtle players would never expand like now...
That first graph is just silly and it is misleading, which is a little disappointing.
Barring that however this is a very good article. The current state of expanding is very strange. And the lotv way of doing it solves nothing. I hope blizzard pays some attention to this idea.
Another way to break the 2:1 ratio without "breaking the AI" (as Blizzard seems to put it) is to make two mineral patches gold at each base.
Then, the most efficient allocation of workers is the most extreme ("all my workers are on gold patches") and the least efficient allocation of workers is the opposite ("all my workers are in one base").
If you have 40 workers, your income is highest on 10 bases. (Two per gold mineral patch x two gold mineral patches per base x 10 bases = 40 workers). If you have the same 40 workers, the _least_ efficient allocation of workers is on one or two bases (you'll be mining the most normal patches and the fewest gold patches).
In this partial gold patch system, we are still rewarding those who expand (relative to the same number of workers), but we are only somewhat rewarding those who build more workers (relative to the same number of bases).
Double Harvesting, on the other hand, may allows you to _almost always_ benefit from building additional workers, as well as _almost always_ benefit from building additional bases.
There is one more consequence of all this discussion that hasn't really been brought up yet, and that's harassment. Blizzard wants harassment to always be viable, because it creates more non-stop action (in their words). One interesting property of the Heart of the Swarm economic model is that if you are able to kill off a couple of your opponent's bases but the workers escape, it is no longer as worthwhile to harass their worker lines (e.g. Hellion/Banshee harass is no longer incentivised) because they are oversaturated anyway. The reverse is also true. If you are able to kill off a bunch of the opponent's workers, it is no longer nearly as valuable to try to kill their Nexii because they won't be able to saturate them anyway.
This means that in Heart of the Swarm, strategic depth narrows as you make progress, rather than broadens -- and that's the opposite of a good strategy game.
Very happy to see this is getting more and more attention! Thanks so much for the article, gread read all around. I really hope Blizzard tests it, or what's the point of having a beta? Either way, the current LotV system is flawed, if they come up with something better themselves it's fine. Just don't be content with what we have.
Hi, i have read thorugh the whole article (but not through the comments) and i think the study is really interesting and your suggested changes are really good. When i heard about the LotV mineral changes and the 12 worker start my biggest concern as well was to how it would eliminate super early game strategies away from the game... i know we all hate cheese :-P but it's a part of the game that especially in tournaments is super fun and exciting to watch.
I was just wondering if you have any thoughts on a 8 worker start with the Double Harvest model. Have you done any experiments on that? You would have a 1:1 ratio right form the beginning and take away like 20-30 sec of the build time you would need for the initial 2 workers. I wonder if this is somewhat of a compromise as well as your 1400 mineral-patch idea in the spirit of Blizzards' new policy to speed the game up a bit. Or do you think the build time of the first 2 workers is crucial to completely shutting down 6 (now 8) pool strats or proxies like the LotV-12-worker start does?
On April 12 2015 16:04 Lunker wrote: Nice post. I agree with much of what's been said in the OP and elsewhere about the three base cap, and hope Blizz looks at the issue closer.
I agree with the complaints about that one graph. A bar chart with 2 bars where you can't tell the size of the bars relative to either 0 or a third bar doesn't help inform people any more than just giving the numbers. One way log scales can be useful is that changing the numbers represented by two bars by the same percentage changes the length of the two bars by the same amount.
It doesn't matter as much, but ideally the line graphs should be bar or dot graphs since you can only have a whole number of workers. It would be easier to read. Colorblind people might have problems with some of them too.
There doesn't seem like there'd be much income advantage in taking more than 6 bases with only 48 workers mining minerals, and I'd like to be able to be on 8 mining bases and have a big army. Would this proposal work well with a raising of the supply cap to 250 or 300?
Unfortunately, that's outside the realm of an economic system, as the base count you can secure is limited by maps and map design, which is rather prohibitive in that regard. Having 6 bases quickly enough that none of them are mined out by the time you've taken the 6th is already rather unlikely, 8 is pretty impossible to design a map for as is, unless you're taking your opponent's bases or something ridiculous (in which case, win the game already).
Raising the supply cap is pretty much out of the question: it's set at 200 deliberately by Blizzard because they want the game to run on lower end machines which wouldn't be able to handle more units. I would expect that to remain non-negotiable.
On April 12 2015 17:44 ShiQuRas1 wrote: Hi, i have read thorugh the whole article (but not thrpugh the comments) and i think the study is really interesting and your suggested chagnes are really good. When i heard about the LotV mineral changes and the 12 worker start my biggest concern as well was to how it would super early game strategies away from the game... i know we all hate cheese :-P but it's a part of the game that especially in tournaments is super fun and exciting to watch.
I was just wondering if you have any thoughts on a 8 worker start with the Double Harvest model. Have you done any experiments on that? You would have a 1:1 ratio right form the beginning and take away like 20-30 sec of the build time you would need for the initial 2 workers. I wonder if this is somewhat of a compromise as well as your 1400 mineral-patch idea in the spirit of Blizzards' new policy to speed the game up a bit. Or do you think the build time of the first 2 workers is crucial to completely shutting down 6 (now 8) pool strats or proxies like the LotV-12-worker start does?
Greets ShiQuRas
This is something I've done a fair amount of thinking on. Firstly, we'll have another article coming regarding the 12 worker start, so this will wait for that. However, if blizzard very much wants to start with more workers than the previous 6 to accelerate the start, I would absolutely advocate for 8 as the best change to make. An 8 worker start, I think, is the best decision. 12 is too many, and we'll go over why. Look for that article!
On April 12 2015 15:11 Cascade wrote: Ok, so I went back through the thread and saw that you already discussed the cut y-axis on the bar plots. I didn't read the thread before posting, sorry about that. I assume that is why you ignore the last 4 or 5 people that pointed out the mistake.
I feel that your most elaborate reply to the issue, that a lot of people raise, is this post:
On April 12 2015 07:36 Teoita wrote: The whole point is that the raw difference, about 100 minerals per minute, is the same no matter what the zoom out is...
But isn't the point of a graph is to visualize the data, which, as you say, is the same no matter the zoom? How the data comes across through the visualization, however, changes greatly based on the zoom level, right? I'm asking out of actual curiosity and not to be cocky...
I'm not gonna state again that I do understand what you are doing and why. I am yet to get confirmation that you understand what I mean, though. Do you? Am I making sense? :s
I didn't think this would be such a big deal to me but alas...
I made the graph.
To make a line graph is unneccesary. I am trying to simply reinforce the text above it with an image. It is presented in the context of the text, not standalone.
I agree that the zoomin may look disproportionate, for this reason i decided to add the data labels to the bars.
I agree that on its own if you completely ignore the Y axis it looks skewed. I agree if you ignore the text time image is easy to take out of context.
There is however no better way to show two different numbers one compared to another than through a bar chart.
So, lets say i do a pie chart - thats not helpful at all. The area graph is also not helpful nor is a line graph because i am not showing a trend, i am simply showing a state - a single period of time.
Due to the fact that the graphs are so similar in height with a large Y axis, you wouldn't see it very well.
If i was comparing multiple base worker counts over time as a comparison over time i would have used either a bar graph with 2 bars, or I would have used an area graph.
the bar chart is the best way to show this visually. And i tried to deal with the zoom in disproportionate presentations through 1) data labels 2) the text surrounding the image.
I felt it was perfectly fine, in context to use this image. So I did. Hope that answers your questions.
While the focus of this article appears to be on resource collection rates, I should mention an additional consequence of reduced-efficiency models in the de-valuing of workers that operate below 100% efficiency. That is to say, in the case of having 16 workers on 8 mineral nodes, if all workers after the 8th work at below 100% efficiency, the impact of losing those additional (#9~16) workers within a single mining base is dampened. This would require additional considerations on the value of worker harassment, as well as the ability of players "behind" on workers to make comebacks, due to the reduced benefits of having a stronger worker force while on a similar number of bases. It provides a possible approach for slowing the snowball effect of economic discrepancies: making the greatest use of additional workers requires taking more bases, with the resulting increases in vulnerability, giving players who are behind in worker count ways to come back. The player with more workers can also choose not to expand as much, resulting in a safer but smaller advantage. Considerations for race, personal style, and map architecture are thus in play as well.
I believe I do discuss this point at some point, or at least the devaluing of workers and greater comeback potential as well.
So while it almost always is a bad idea to cut a bar chart (I really can't come up with any exceptions tbh), as I explained in my previous post (people read the area as the "amount of stuff"), there are ofc always exception and you are right that it depends on what point you want to make. So let me explain in detail why this plot is a bad idea in this specific case.
First, what people see when they look at the plots, is "whoa, that red bar is a lot larger than the blue bar!". This goes for anyone, no matter the experience or background or anything. The first thing you notice when you look at the plot is that there is a lot more red than blue. Is that the point you want to get across? Probably yes, as that would fit with the story you are trying to tell, so you are probably happy with the plot giving that impression. It is definitely misleading though, as the difference is like 5%. So it gives the impression that there is a huge relative difference, while it is actually very small, which is misleading no matter how you see it.
You say that they point is to show that they are 100 minerals different, focusing that it is important that they are different at all, and that the fact that it is a difference between 2000 and 2100 is of less importance. Ok, that's fine. But if you are just after the difference, not the absolute values, then plot the difference... A single number. With two bars you need to read the y-axis and take the difference to find the difference. So it doesn't do a good job of showing how big the difference is. It shows that there is a difference, but the plot would look exactly the same if the difference was 1000 minerals, 100 minerals or 1 mineral, so the visual bars don't help at all to distinguish that difference.
So the point you actually want to make, or SHOULD want to make at least, is to show how big the difference is compared to other things. For example, how many mining drones does it correspond to? How big is the difference compared to a saturated base? How big is the difference compared to the other comparisons you are doing in the analysis? So a much better way to illustrate your point would be a plot, bar-chart is fine, of "gained income" from different things. I threw one together in an online plotting program I just googled, but something along the line of this You now get a clear understanding of how big the difference is, and you would immediately spot if the difference is 1 mineral/minute or 1000 minerals per minute.
Thanks.
^Huge spoilered quote...
This is what I was trying to get at in my original posts. Choosing a graph type that is not really displaying what you want it to display is in itself contradictory. Cascade illustrates this very well, and I think this sentence also is key: "It shows that there is a difference, but the plot would look exactly the same if the difference was 1000 minerals, 100 minerals or 1 mineral, so the visual bars don't help at all to distinguish that difference". Zooming in makes the actual numerical difference irrelevant, but that's what you want to illustrate (as you stated). Yes you label the axis, but reading and understanding the labels is just as big of a barrier for people as reading the text and understanding it that way.
Thanks Cascade for your effort! I found it hard to put my thoughts down in words last night.
On April 12 2015 16:51 Hider wrote: The reward vs punishing-concept is definitely a meaningless phrase, and I am not sure how many people actually understands what it means.
I think there is some meaning as long as it is understood that rewards depend on spreading out more.
The reward system is a buff to mobile styles but there is an inherent counterbalance within the economy itself. The buff is obviously that mobile styles can receive incentives by expanding more. The counterbalance is that spreading out means more vulnerable points that can be harassed or attacked. There is an inherent balance achieved by nature of the system.
A punishment system is exclusively a nerf to immobile styles. There is no counterbalance inherent within the system to keep immobile styles viable. This system is naturally imbalanced and the only way to counteract this issue is through maps and unit changes.
One system contains a natural balance while the other creates imbalance. Just in terms of elegant design, a reward system makes a lot of sense.
Amazing article, straight on point, excellent job Zeromus <3 Hopefully Blizzard will listen and take act. Establishing a good, solid, well thought-out economic system that allows for diversity and assymetry, like Double Harvest and unlike the current LotV model, is the first step to making LotV what it should be - the equivalent of what Brood War was to SC or what TFT was to WC3.
If double harvesting reduces efficiency due to worker pairing, then a nearly mathematically equivalent reduction in efficiency could be achieved by reducing the amount of time for which a worker will wait during the "check, wait, harvest" cycle. This gives you roughly the same changes in mining curve, without the increased income which is the main drawback of double-harvesting.
Put another way: what you're really changing in double harvesting is increasing worker searching-time by making a relatively smaller window of time in the mining cycle for which a worker will 'pair' with another. Specifically, you are increasing the worker mining-time to achieve that. But if you reduce the amount of time a worker will wait for another worker to finish (from 1s to 0.5s), then the worker becomes more 'impatient' and spends more of their time searching - achieving /roughly/ equivalent result of reducing mining efficiency, but without increased overall income curve.
I also agree that "reward vs punishment" doesn't make for a good dichotomy, and I can't believe that smart people on TL would actually present them as two fundamentally different things. It really doesn't matter if you are rewarded or if your opponent is punished, and oftentimes we fool ourselves into thinking that we did something good, but in fact our opponent just messed up (and the converse is true), so I don't see how there would be a difference for the economy. If anything, there is definitely a question of scale, nuances, speed of the game, but that's it.
If a cool system like "dual harvesting" was instaured (which by the way I hugely agree should be investigated by Blizzard), it would make staying on few bases punishing all the same compared to someone who take more of them. The problem right now is that people feel pressured by the pace at which you have to take expands because minerals dry out super fast, but it's not a question of "reward vs punishment".
On April 12 2015 18:11 kuroshiro wrote: If double harvesting reduces efficiency due to worker pairing, then a nearly mathematically equivalent reduction in efficiency could be achieved by reducing the amount of time for which a worker will wait during the "check, wait, harvest" cycle. This gives you roughly the same changes in mining curve, without the increased income which is the main drawback of double-harvesting.
Put another way: what you're really changing in double harvesting is increasing worker searching-time by making a relatively smaller window of time in the mining cycle for which a worker will 'pair' with another. Specifically, you are increasing the worker mining-time to achieve that. But if you reduce the amount of time a worker will wait for another worker to finish (from 1s to 0.5s), then the worker becomes more 'impatient' and spends more of their time searching - achieving /roughly/ equivalent result of reducing mining efficiency, but without increased overall income curve.
Was this tested?
We considered it, but it's trickier to change in the editor (you'll have to ask for the specifics to Zero or Lalush though), so eventually we settled on double harvesting since it's more simple to implement.
On April 12 2015 18:11 ZenithM wrote: I also agree that "reward vs punishment" doesn't make for a good dichotomy, and I can't believe that smart people on TL would actually present them as two fundamentally different things. It really doesn't matter if you are rewarded or if your opponent is punished, and oftentimes we fool ourselves into thinking that we did something good, but in fact our opponent just messed up (and the converse is true), so I don't see how there would be a difference for the economy. If anything, there is definitely a question of scale, nuances, speed of the game, but that's it.
If a cool system like "dual harvesting" was instaured (which by the way I hugely agree should be investigated by Blizzard), it would make staying on few bases punishing all the same compared to someone who take more of them. The problem right now is that people feel pressured by the pace at which you have to take expands because minerals dry out super fast, but it's not a question of "reward vs punishment".
I agree that it starts being semantics in a way, but the core issue is that there's a difference in how the game "feels" when your own workers are screwing you up, as opposed to a good opponent denying your bases for example. The reward vs punishment part isn't even the most important point, what we are trying to say is that we believe the best way to encourage more expansions is to change worker efficiency, rather than artificially taking out someone's income.
On April 12 2015 05:58 ZeromuS wrote: I really hope people take the time to read this entire article. In it I break down the HotS economy, the LotV economy, and I provide what is truly more "BW-like" an economy that the TL strat team would love to see at least get a chance in LotV Beta.
Its a long beta.
Give other economic models a chance. Player influenced expansion based gameplay is we believe, a far better approach than time influenced expansion based gameplay.
Thanks for reading this huge thing, we spent a LOT of time on.
Thank you for the great article, everything very well explained ! I strongly hope blizzard will give the idea a try since I find the current lotv dynamic very bad (from what I have seen so far) , and they wont dismiss it as another bw nostalgia article, since it isn't.
This is something a litle depressing, when you think of ways to improve sc2, some people will just dismiss your point based on the fact you got inspired by bw, without even thinking at what you are saying, and blizzard so far seems to have done the same.
On April 12 2015 06:37 KrazyTrumpet wrote: This is an amazingly researched and written article. This is how you get a point across, with plain language, hard numbers, and sound reasoning. (I hope TheDWF takes notes from this!)
After reading the ENTIRE article, I'm convinced the Double Harvest method is worth trying. As a player who enjoys playing a slower and more defensive style, I'm just not a huge fan of the current LotV model. I would really love if we can get all this in Blizzard's hands and ask them to seriously consider it.
On April 12 2015 06:31 Killmouse wrote: hope blizzard will read that, amazing work by u guys!
Blizzard might read it, but they will never consider putting it into the game, I bet you.
What an extremely shitty and negative attitude. Blizzard is showing now more than EVER that they are willing to make huge changes to make SC2 great. Comments like this are useless and do nothing but showcase your own bitterness.
It might be a shitty attitude. But i fear it is the truth...
Really well written article and I'd love to see it tested.
I'll even defend the "Reward vs Punishment" phrasing.
If we take HotS economy as the baseline because that is what we're used to, then the phrasing makes sense. Compared to the HotS economy, the current LotV economy punishes you for not expanding by not allowing you to do things that you used to be able to do on one base. In order build what you could build in HotS on one base, you must expand and are thus punished for not doing it.
In the Double Harvest method, you can still do the same thing on one base that you could in HotS. However, you can now generate income faster on two bases with a non-saturated worker count than you could in HotS. You are rewarded for expanding relative to what you could do in HotS.
So the phrasing isn't looking through the lens of a competitive game, but instead through the individual aspect of being able to do more (reward) or less (punishment) than what you used to be able to do. And while SC2 is a competitive game and in that regard there is no reward or punishment relative to your opponent, there is still a psychological feeling of reward and punishment due to the economic system being used.
to reflect on the discussion from the beginning of the thread. i feel like you are right on the mark when backing your arguments with a lot of graphs and numbers. using math is a great way to reach out to any dev team, considering their background. that said, i dont think its really necessary for everyone to read this article, as long as blizz does. and they really should.
On the one hand, it's one of the greatest games (if not the very best game) of all time, so it's always interesting to see what made it so right, but that was caused mostly by the stars just magically aligning it, so hoping for sc2 to match or exceed that is kind of unreasonable. On the other hand, SC2 was pretty shit at first, and people had the pretty unreasonable expectation of getting BW HD, even though that game had been played for 12 years when SC2 game out. Tons of "veterans" are very critical of sc2 becuase of that - it's really hard to see SC2 as anything but BW, but slightly worse, when all you are used to is BW.
It just ends up being a pretty touchy subject that is hard to discuss, but i think with this article we did a good job of it.
I think there is some meaning as long as it is understood that rewards depend on spreading out more.
The reward system is a buff to mobile styles but there is an inherent counterbalance within the economy itself. The buff is obviously that mobile styles can receive incentives by expanding more. The counterbalance is that spreading out means more vulnerable points that can be harassed or attacked. There is an inherent balance achieved by nature of the system.
Yes I know LOTV economy and BW economy have very different implications. That was what I spend a long time explaining in my post. However, its still a meaningless phrase in itself, and its gonna end up confusing alot more viewers. Its like politicans who want lower taxes and try to convince other people that its a good idea by saying "lower taxes = more freedom". Freedom here is pretty meaningless and more of a deceiving phrase to convince voters. Its not a phrase you should use if you want to explain the more complicated effects of lower taxes.
Therefore, I thinkink refering to LOTV as a "force-bases"-economy makes more sense as it implies that there is an option in other economies.
There is no counterbalance inherent within the system to keep immobile styles viable. This system is naturally imbalanced and the only way to counteract this issue is through maps and unit changes.
You can always increase the cost efficiency of the immobile units to make it viable. However, as I have argued previously, this willl create a very turtly gameplay. Combining (a) high cost efficiency immobile units with (b) force-bases econ --> very stale gameplay in the midgame.
The immobile race simply must be allowed to stay on few bases as that makes it possible for him to be aggressive. Otherwise its better to have mobile vs mobile in the midgame.
You are rewarded for expanding relative to what you could do in HotS.
And you would be punished for expanding to the same degree if you didn't take that extra base, hence why its a meangless phrase. Yes there are actually implications, but throwing around meanginless terms is not a good way of making more people actually understand the differences.
Great read! I think the idea is amazing, even if I usually dislike brood-war-nostalgia-inspired changes.
Just a small question though, if one would construct the Nexus a little farther, so that the wait-check cycle would not hit while the currently harvesting worker is into his first cycle, would worker pairing still work? And if so, would the mining efficiency be changed in any way?
Thank you very much for this extremely good proposition, I dearly hope Blizzard will at least consider it!
The more bases one player has over another on similar worker counts results in higher income.
Given similar worker counts, the more additional bases one player has, the greater that player's income advantage.
Losing a worker with 5 minerals does result in the permanent loss of those 5 minerals. but his is no different from the worker losing their 5 minerals when returning to the town hall in the current economic model in SCII.
Losing a worker with 5 minerals does result in the permanent loss of those 5 minerals, but this is no different from the worker losing their 5 minerals when returning to the town hall in the current economic model in SCII.
Due to the fact that there is no visual cue for workers who are carrying 5 minerals in their basket, incentivizes a player using a single target harassment unit (banshees, oracles etc) to focus their efforts on killing workers returning mineral packages, thereby removing 10 minerals from their opponent’s income and a worker instead of just five.
The lack of a visual cue for workers carrying 5 minerals incentivizes single target harassment units (banshees, oracles, etc.) to focus on killing workers returning mineral packages, thereby draining 10 minerals from the opponent’s income instead of just zero to five.
This is the third (?) time that a see a thread about worker efficiency, man it always amaze me how even something that should be a problem helped brood war D: sometimes i think that BW had more luck than good design.
Read up the the double harvester model for now and I just want to say that the work you're putting into this is just amazing. I hope Blizzard will try out various things in the beta and keeps an open mind.
How much is the Double Harvest model able to be influenced by worker micro? It seems that its essential property is that workers wait and wander and that reduces their efficiency. If a theoretical player would perfectly babysit a mining base, how much would the curve rise? In WoL/HoTS mining, there is a pretty visible increase from perfect pairing at the beginning which then flattens out as you get to 16 workers per base, how is it here? I imagine that you can in theory smartly direct workers to a patch so that it will become available as they arrive (really available, not "fake available") - it's probably hard as hell in practice but we know that pros will never cease to amaze us with new skills.
I am sorry for a question that I could "test myself", but I am really curious about this before I think about the rest of consequences and I don't have access to SC2 at work (where I am rotting on Sunday sadly). Also I suck even at worker pairing in HoTS so I am not sure my personal gains would be relevant.
The models suggested, though not perfect, would be so much better than the stupid "expand like a madman because the clock is ticking" model LotV is tending towards. Thanks for that article, I hope Blizzard at least tries something else.
Why is nobody picking up on the 'make some patches gold' idea posted a couple of pages ago? I think that's genius!
1. You get a boost to the early game by pairing workers on the gold patches. 2. Having extra bases allows you to mine more efficiently with the same number of workers 3. Harassing an opponent mining off more bases increases his cognitive load (since he'll have to re-pair his workers on the gold patches to maintain his advantage) which is a nice 'soft' advantage to turtling. 4. You can fine-tune the system by tweaking how many patches are gold (2-4) and what the benefit of gold patches is in terms of minerals returned per trip. 5. It doesn't make workers look derpy 6. It's totally readable for players and spectators, and requires zero explanation. Everyone already knows what gold minerals are and why you should want to mine them for preference.
I feel like this is going to be a little too fast too. And if we start with 8 workers, then its pretty much just take an expansion from 0:01. That actually doesn't sound like fun. 1 base plays are fun on the actual rarity of occurence you see them in HOTS. maybe about 5 to 10% of the time.
Also, why does this not also have the same detriment when your probes get killed? Don't you feel each probe death much more impactfully? I can't imagine what it would do to lose 14 probes to an oracles at an entire base.
Each worker is more valuable, but because of the higher income he doesn't take as long to pay off for the 50 mineral investment, so it's easier to replace them.
On April 12 2015 05:58 ZeromuS wrote: I really hope people take the time to read this entire article. In it I break down the HotS economy, the LotV economy, and I provide what is truly more "BW-like" an economy that the TL strat team would love to see at least get a chance in LotV Beta.
Its a long beta.
Give other economic models a chance. Player influenced expansion based gameplay is we believe, a far better approach than time influenced expansion based gameplay.
Thanks for reading this huge thing, we spent a LOT of time on.
Be happy if 5% of people bother reading all of it honestly x_x
I am okay with that. If the ideas get out there, and begin to spread thats the important part.
I'm the 5%.
Anyone who has kept up with all the different econ discussions should be well aware of the double harvesting model. The only problems I have with it are that it takes away one of the good things of the current mining model which is worker pairing on the near mineral patches for increased efficiency. I'm not skilled enough it the tester (lazy) to make the model work so I can test it properly, whatt I was looking at though is the time difference between workers being able to be paired (by forcing them to mine) if this was a suitable short amount of time a skilled player could micro his workers and force them to dual mine from a close mineral patch for increased econ. If you adjusted something like the acceleration of the unit or even the speed to make the difference in mine speed one click you could probably find someone who could keep 3 mineral patches or even 4 working efficiently which would mean things like 8/9 pools would be faster/stronger if people could micro that well meaning these builds are "skilled"
While that's true, you have to remember that managing worker counts across all bases for the whole game becomes much more important, so i think it's a good tradeoff in the end. I agree losing early game worker micro isn't great though.
After I read your post it got me thinking. How does the mule fit into the DH method ? Or would you consider that to be a balance issue, instead of an economic issue ?
So one thing I do not agree with is the part about 12 workers eliminating early strategies and proxies. I think it's way too early to say that and we already saw proxy 12/12/12 rax bein really good, maybe even stronger that the 11/11. Same with early pools, I still think they can be really strong. 12 workers get me the minerals for a pool faster than 6, so the the early strategies hit even faster now, only the supply number changed.
If 12 woorkers is too much with double harvesting, why not go with a 8/9/10 worker start , just not the old 6 worker start, since I think it feels really cool and fresh to start with more workers and cut the downtime. Everybody except Artosis and Tasteless seemed to love it so far.
Obviously as you said this is not the focus of this discussion, but I don't think we should assume that double harvesting would mean we should go back to 6 workers.
On April 12 2015 20:49 Teoita wrote: While that's true, you have to remember that managing worker counts across all bases for the whole game becomes much more important, so i think it's a good tradeoff in the end. I agree losing early game worker micro isn't great though.
Either lalush extension mod is bugged or there's a big flaw with this model. I tried force pairing workers and what I found was sometimes (after the first mining packet) if you force a worker to mine that patch the worker will force the one that was halfway through mining off of the patch. I then tried to replicate that without having clicked anything and I noticed very rarely but it does happen sometimes that the workers automatically override the others. I assume this isn't intentional?
I'm really excited about de double harvest model. My only concern is that it gives a significantly higher income, thus accelerating the pace of the game. As TheDwf wrote, this could lead into hyper-development, and could be bad for gaemplay. Is there a way to tweak it so we have the same value (I.e. the integral of the curves between 0 and 16 is the same than the existing model) ?
On April 12 2015 22:35 v_lm wrote: I'm really excited about de double harvest model. My only concern is that it gives a significantly higher income, thus accelerating the pace of the game. As TheDwf wrote, this could lead into hyper-development, and could be bad for gaemplay. Is there a way to tweak it so we have the same value (I.e. the integral of the curves between 0 and 16 is the same than the existing model) ?
Thank you for your time =)
By tweaking the acceleration/speed of the worker you can slow or speed up the mining time whilst keeping the improved model the same, like I said earlier if you adjust that to be inline so you can micro the worker into a closer patch that would be the ideal.
That also impacts early game scouting, as well as defending cheese though, so it's not quite the ideal solution, unless you can find a sweet spot where mining is changed to your desired level, but the interactions with every unit in the game (particularly early game ones like marines/lings/zealots/queens, and harassment ones like hellions/dts/oracles etc) is unchanged. That sounds extremely trick though.
Yeah you can't really change the speed value of workers, acceleration might be the way ? Or locating the mineral patches further ? But do you guys agree that it's good that the total mining remains the same ?
First of all, amazing article! The amount of details is incredible, and I'm thoroughly convinced that your approach is superior to the one Blizzard is currently testing. I don't think we should be too worried about the increased income as that can eventually be tweaked rather simply by slightly increasing the amount of time a worker spends mining the 5 minerals. Focus should be on the concept, which is great.
One thing I don't find very elegant about the Double Harvest model is the basket concept. I understand completely why it's implemented, but it's not very intuitive to a casual player, or even a hardcore player who hasn't taken the time to read this article.
I'd instead propose a small tweak to the model where the worker mines minerals at a linear rate of 1 every ~0.54 seconds. At 10 minerals it will return to base to deliver them, but the player is able to force the worker to do that at any time. Obviously this isn't something you would do under normal circumstances, as the increased travel time will decrease your mining efficiency, but you could do it before pulling workers to defend an early attack or before sending a worker out to scout and so on. One could also envision builds that (ab)used this to hit certain early timings (by forcing all workers to deliver minerals at a certain time to obtain a spike in minerals). I'm not entirely sure if that would be a problem or just a cool thing you could do in a build. The spike in minerals would be offset by an overall less efficient mining rate.
Now, I understand that an important factor that influenced you choosing to propose the Double Harvest model was that it was implementable in the SCII Editor. I think that's a valid reason, and very much hope Blizzard decides to test it out! But I still think we should consider what an ideal model would be if we were able to change anything .
On April 12 2015 22:45 Teoita wrote: That also impacts early game scouting, as well as defending cheese though, so it's not quite the ideal solution, unless you can find a sweet spot where mining is changed to your desired level, but the interactions with every unit in the game (particularly early game ones like marines/lings/zealots/queens, and harassment ones like hellions/dts/oracles etc) is unchanged. That sounds extremely trick though.
I think a change of workers and how they attack is in order anyway. I would prefer them to have a slight increase in range (I mean tiny) so that interactions take place like this
Overall speed isn't what I'm really looking to change since as you said it means the unit could either be run down or outrun a unit it can't currently. (Even though movement speed is slightly changed depending on the direction of the unit) if you changed the acceleration/deceleration you could create a moving shot of sorts that if an opponent has just a moved latched onto a unit you could micro it so you can win everytime. (I think I will try and make this work in the editor now so I can show you what I mean)
On April 12 2015 07:14 Teoita wrote: Nowhere in the article do we claim that 4base income is 3 times higher than 3base or whatever...the bars are in fact relative to 2142 and 2235 respectively, the y axis just so happens to start from 2100 instead of 0 because, well, what you want to look at isn't two bigass bars that are slightly different from each other, you want to see exactly how different they are. I just don't understand how that could possibly be misleading.
Not to mention, altering the scale on an axis to illustrate a point better is in fact extremely common in scientific papers. Ever heard of a log/log plane?
Just because it happens all the time doesn't mean it is not a bad practice. Also log scales are a completely different thing.
If you ever read a book on data visualization by an actual expert (Stephen Few for instance) you would know that the power of a bar chart is the abillity to encode the data points for fast glance decoding. When I glance over these charts some of them makes it look like one is 3-4 times more effective than the other. The author even chose to add the actual data point values to CLEAR UP THE CONFUSION his poor usage of bar charts is sure to make. There is no reason for him to use a bar chart if he is not gonna use it in a way that is representative of the underlying data.
On April 12 2015 20:49 Teoita wrote: While that's true, you have to remember that managing worker counts across all bases for the whole game becomes much more important, so i think it's a good tradeoff in the end. I agree losing early game worker micro isn't great though.
Either lalush extension mod is bugged or there's a big flaw with this model. I tried force pairing workers and what I found was sometimes (after the first mining packet) if you force a worker to mine that patch the worker will force the one that was halfway through mining off of the patch. I then tried to replicate that without having clicked anything and I noticed very rarely but it does happen sometimes that the workers automatically override the others. I assume this isn't intentional?
No it is intentional.
If you could force them to pair the AI would eventually pair them
The way we force no pairing and bouncing is by abusing the harvest ai. Remember each harvest is an action, they do it twice but they only leave and return to the next/cc/hatch.
So of course they will be interrupted if another one starts (or if you force it).
The econ management is shifted instead of early age worker pairing you need to make sure the startimgv6 dont avoid a close patch. You also need to make sure the first few workers go to the empty mineral patches and not disrupt others (for first two).
Next there is way more econ management in mid and late game.
Let's say you have 16 in main and 9 in Nat then take natb asses. If you pit the workers in the Nat in the gas and not Maynard from the main you are losing a LOT of potential income.
This interaction applies at all times of the game. You always need to be checking and managing worker counts. You need to decide : do I put 8 guys on the new base or defend them better on the old ones? Do I replace the harassment killed workers with new ones or maynarding ones?
On April 12 2015 07:14 Teoita wrote: Nowhere in the article do we claim that 4base income is 3 times higher than 3base or whatever...the bars are in fact relative to 2142 and 2235 respectively, the y axis just so happens to start from 2100 instead of 0 because, well, what you want to look at isn't two bigass bars that are slightly different from each other, you want to see exactly how different they are. I just don't understand how that could possibly be misleading.
Not to mention, altering the scale on an axis to illustrate a point better is in fact extremely common in scientific papers. Ever heard of a log/log plane?
Just because it happens all the time doesn't mean it is not a bad practice. Also log scales are a completely different thing.
If you ever read a book on data visualization by an actual expert (Stephen Few for instance) you would know that the power of a bar chart is the abillity to encode the data points for fast glance decoding, when I glance over these charts some of them makes it look like one is 3-4 times more effective than the other - the author even chose to add the actual data point values to CLEAR UP THE CONFUSION his poor usage of bar charts is sure to make. There is no reason for him to use a bar chart if he is not gonna use it in a way that is representative of the underlying data.
This isn't being published in some major scientific paper. The graphs are a visual aid. Can we stop derailing the discussion because of a graph?
On April 12 2015 07:14 Teoita wrote: Nowhere in the article do we claim that 4base income is 3 times higher than 3base or whatever...the bars are in fact relative to 2142 and 2235 respectively, the y axis just so happens to start from 2100 instead of 0 because, well, what you want to look at isn't two bigass bars that are slightly different from each other, you want to see exactly how different they are. I just don't understand how that could possibly be misleading.
Not to mention, altering the scale on an axis to illustrate a point better is in fact extremely common in scientific papers. Ever heard of a log/log plane?
Just because it happens all the time doesn't mean it is not a bad practice. Also log scales are a completely different thing.
If you ever read a book on data visualization by an actual expert (Stephen Few for instance) you would know that the power of a bar chart is the abillity to encode the data points for fast glance decoding, when I glance over these charts some of them makes it look like one is 3-4 times more effective than the other - the author even chose to add the actual data point values to CLEAR UP THE CONFUSION his poor usage of bar charts is sure to make. There is no reason for him to use a bar chart if he is not gonna use it in a way that is representative of the underlying data.
This isn't being published in some major scientific paper. The graphs are a visual aid. Can we stop derailing the discussion because of a graph?
It's not a visual aid if it isn't actually AIDING the visual perception.
1. HotS mining rates 2. One base mining with 2 gold patches up to 16 workers 3. Two bases mining with a total of 4 gold patches up to 16 workers 4. Two bases mining with a total of 5 gold patches up to 16 workers (2 patches in main, 3 in natural)
Headline numbers:
One base with 2 gold patches
27% higher mining than HotS with starting 6 workers
20% higher mining than HotS with 8 workers
10% higher mining than HotS with 16 workers
Two bases with 5 gold patches (2 in main, 3 in natural)
30% higher mining than HotS with 16 workers
18% higher mining than staying on 1 base with 16 workers
Overall, this seems to tick a lot of the same boxes as Double Harvesting. There's an initial economy boost, spreading workers across more bases is advantageous, and the cap is, in practice, all but unattainable (24 gold patches would be 7-8 bases).
Add to that the other, previously mentioned advantages:
Workers don't suddenly look like they've lost their minds.
Everyone already knows about gold minerals; there's nothing to explain.
What am I missing here that's stopping anyone else caring about this idea?
On April 12 2015 07:14 Teoita wrote: Nowhere in the article do we claim that 4base income is 3 times higher than 3base or whatever...the bars are in fact relative to 2142 and 2235 respectively, the y axis just so happens to start from 2100 instead of 0 because, well, what you want to look at isn't two bigass bars that are slightly different from each other, you want to see exactly how different they are. I just don't understand how that could possibly be misleading.
Not to mention, altering the scale on an axis to illustrate a point better is in fact extremely common in scientific papers. Ever heard of a log/log plane?
Just because it happens all the time doesn't mean it is not a bad practice. Also log scales are a completely different thing.
If you ever read a book on data visualization by an actual expert (Stephen Few for instance) you would know that the power of a bar chart is the abillity to encode the data points for fast glance decoding, when I glance over these charts some of them makes it look like one is 3-4 times more effective than the other - the author even chose to add the actual data point values to CLEAR UP THE CONFUSION his poor usage of bar charts is sure to make. There is no reason for him to use a bar chart if he is not gonna use it in a way that is representative of the underlying data.
This isn't being published in some major scientific paper. [...]
Correct, but why not aspire to be the equivalent to a major scientific paper in the sc2 community? We are pretty close, you know.
On April 12 2015 20:49 Teoita wrote: While that's true, you have to remember that managing worker counts across all bases for the whole game becomes much more important, so i think it's a good tradeoff in the end. I agree losing early game worker micro isn't great though.
Either lalush extension mod is bugged or there's a big flaw with this model. I tried force pairing workers and what I found was sometimes (after the first mining packet) if you force a worker to mine that patch the worker will force the one that was halfway through mining off of the patch. I then tried to replicate that without having clicked anything and I noticed very rarely but it does happen sometimes that the workers automatically override the others. I assume this isn't intentional?
No it is intentional.
If you could force them to pair the AI would eventually pair them
The way we force no pairing and bouncing is by abusing the harvest ai. Remember each harvest is an action, they do it twice but they only leave and return to the next/cc/hatch.
So of course they will be interrupted if another one starts (or if you force it).
The econ management is shifted instead of early age worker pairing you need to make sure the startimgv6 dont avoid a close patch. You also need to make sure the first few workers go to the empty mineral patches and not disrupt others (for first two).
Next there is way more econ management in mid and late game.
Let's say you have 16 in main and 9 in Nat then take natb asses. If you pit the workers in the Nat in the gas and not Maynard from the main you are losing a LOT of potential income.
This interaction applies at all times of the game. You always need to be checking and managing worker counts. You need to decide : do I put 8 guys on the new base or defend them better on the old ones? Do I replace the harassment killed workers with new ones or maynarding ones?
More decisions than rally nexus make probe.
I didn't explain very well. The current drone is mining (named 1 second drone is name 2) 1 is mining 2 I'm controlling I tell 2 to go mine on the close patch that 1 is mining from 2 should bounce but if I click at a particular point usually when 1 is is just about before the second mining scan 1 then bounces and allows 2 to mine. Shouldn't it be that 1 still is forced to bounce rather than the one currently mining.
@Umpteen: with gold minerals income spikes up for the first 8 workers, but when you go to 16 workers overall income is higher; we instead searched for something that would make 16 and above be close to sc2 currently (ie, hit a similar plateau in income), but make the first 8 workers a lot more efficient, and then next 8 less so.
Of course gold minerals is also another way to explore the "change worker efficiency" dynamic that could be explored though.
@Barrin: i agree that less mineral per trip might be a good idea and worth exploring; 5 per trip simply has the side effect of increasing income (therefore speeding up the early game) slightly, so it might be more in line with Blizzard's design intentions without changing the growth of economy vs the growth of tech, like the 12 worker start currently does. It's also the default value for mining, so it's a good starting point.
I really wish someone can get the pro to test the economy out and post out some games. I could try it out but without a proper opening etc, we won't really know what it will be like after the economy is more figured out.
On April 13 2015 00:19 Teoita wrote: @Umpteen: with gold minerals income spikes up for the first 8 workers, but when you go to 16 workers overall income is higher; we instead searched for something that would make 16 and above be close to sc2 currently (ie, hit a similar plateau in income), but make the first 8 workers a lot more efficient, and then next 8 less so.
Of course gold minerals is also another way to explore the "change worker efficiency" dynamic that could be explored though.
True, overall income with 16 workers is 10% higher, as opposed to 5% (IIRC) with double-harvesting.
You inspired me to go back and try again, and I found something very interesting:
Three gold patches per base (7 minerals per trip), blue minerals harvest 4 per trip instead of 5
You get a similar early income boost
16 worker per base income converges to just 2.5% higher than HotS
16 worker 2 base income is 22% higher than 16 worker 1 base
That's really really interesting! It's exactly what we were hoping to encourage with this - experimentation with a few different economic models, to share ideas and suggest how to break the "24 node limit".
On April 13 2015 00:19 Teoita wrote: @Umpteen: with gold minerals income spikes up for the first 8 workers, but when you go to 16 workers overall income is higher; we instead searched for something that would make 16 and above be close to sc2 currently (ie, hit a similar plateau in income), but make the first 8 workers a lot more efficient, and then next 8 less so.
Of course gold minerals is also another way to explore the "change worker efficiency" dynamic that could be explored though.
True, overall income with 16 workers is 10% higher, as opposed to 5% (IIRC) with double-harvesting.
You inspired me to go back and try again, and I found something very interesting:
Three gold patches per base (7 minerals per trip), blue minerals harvest 4 per trip instead of 5
You get a similar early income boost
16 worker per base income converges to just 2.5% higher than HotS
16 worker 2 base income is 22% higher than 16 worker 1 base
Despite what teo is saying, the advantage of DH isn't the early game mineral boost (thats just a numbers thing, can easily be manipulated in a variety of ways). The advantage is the shape of the minerals mined per minute (mmpm) vs number of workers graph, and in particular the fact after 8 workers there is less increase on the mmpm per worker added, whereas currently that threshold is set at 16. Your model of adding gold minerals doesn't change this curve, and neither does the LotV or FRB models.
This is important because if you accept that 60 workers is optimal in terms of economy supply vs army supply, then the 48 workers mining minerals need 24 mineral patches to be optimal. The gold patch model doesn't change this, and hence doesn't change the 3 base paradigm. FRB changes the 24 patch cap to four bases which is better (and arguably 5 bases due to less workers mining gas). DH changes this to that you need 48 patches to be optimal which is 6 bases and in any normal game you're never going to have 6 bases mining simultaneously. The effect of this is that there is always an advantage to having more bases if you can defend it, meaning there is no effective base cap unlike every other model suggested. It's worth noting that FRB (under Barrins 6m1g implementation) gets really damn close to this, and why that model worked quite well in encouraging expanding.
I think it kind of does that - the first few workers are more efficient because they have access to the gold nodes. In that model, you have higher income on 4bases because you have access to more gold nodes. Am i missing anything?
On April 12 2015 21:01 5p4z3n3k0 wrote: Nice post, for dirty protosses... ( joke ofc )
After I read your post it got me thinking. How does the mule fit into the DH method ? Or would you consider that to be a balance issue, instead of an economic issue ?
spaze,
edit:Grammar
It isn't relevant to the model, since it's existence is already a terran specific boost to income outside the function of scvs.
If it's unchanged, it's relative value drops slightly because income rates in general are increased, but it's flat value wouldn't change at all, still 270 minerals returned over the length of its life.
On April 13 2015 00:44 Barrin wrote: @author of Double Harvest, can we get (A) 4 per harvest (for 4+4=8 per trip) and maybe (B) 4.5 per harvest (for 4.5+4.5=9 per trip) versions, please? super thanks!
I think this would just drop the overall income by 20% if it was 8 per trip. I dont believe mineral patches give 0.5 steps of cargo either.
If you drop overall income by 20% you end up with even harsher returns on fewer bases (on 16 workers) compared to hots. Which would be far too low when comparing to the HotS curve, since Blizz wants closer to hots curve. By dropping the income to 8 you end up with a little over 100 less minerals a minute at 16 compared to standard.
It also barely increases early game income which means the early game side effect of going quicker is lost. So I think if you do that you begin to lose sight of some of the design goals of blizzard taking our goals out of line with theirs wont help us
If i get this correctly the maximum achieveable income with ~70 workers is way higher then right now? What would that mean for the game fex for zerg, they would in some games earn massive income. We could see unseen fast production of units if the opponent doeasnt harass. Fex a zerg with 7 bases and 56 workers on minerals and 24 on gas would actually be 500*7=3500 min/sec. compared to now 700 * 3.5 = 2450 right?
On April 13 2015 00:48 Teoita wrote: I think it kind of does that - the first few workers are more efficient because they have access to the gold nodes. In that model, you have higher income on 4bases because you have access to more gold nodes. Am i missing anything?
I suppose your right to some extent. The issues are similar to the LotV model in that the gold nodes are going to mine out quicker than the blue nodes (at the proposed 7/4 model it takes about 30% longer to mine out the blue ones). You could change the values on the golds to correct this, but that is kinda weird (having two kinds of gold minerals). The mmpm graph also looks unnatural. I'm not convinced that its necessarily better than DH as a result. DH feels like a very organic solution (so does FRB for that matter) whereas gold nodes and mixed minerals don;t.
On April 13 2015 00:53 etsharry wrote: Please correct me if i am wrong:
If i get this correctly the maximum achieveable income with ~70 workers is way higher then right now? What would that mean for the game fex for zerg, they would in some games earn massive income. We could see unseen fast production of units if the opponent doeasnt harass. Fex a zerg with 7 bases and 56 workers on minerals and 24 on gas would actually be 500*7=3500 min/sec. compared to now 700 * 3.5 = 2450
Correct. Assuming the current meta, Zerg being the expanding race would look to take as many bases as possible to maximise the efficiency of their drones. If a zerg can successfully defend 7 bases then yes they could have an insane economy/production rate. But also note that this applies to the other races as well which are generally more cost efficient (but not a hard rule, obviously).
On April 13 2015 00:53 etsharry wrote: Please correct me if i am wrong:
If i get this correctly the maximum achieveable income with ~70 workers is way higher then right now? What would that mean for the game fex for zerg, they would in some games earn massive income. We could see unseen fast production of units if the opponent doeasnt harass. Fex a zerg with 7 bases and 56 workers on minerals and 24 on gas would actually be 500*7=3500 min/sec. compared to now 700 * 3.5 = 2450 right?
Assuming someone can defend 7 bases at once yes, their income would be way way higher. That's a big "if" though.
I think its worth trying it with the closer to current model, then maybe drop the minerals if we find its too much, and if only Zerg is a huge advantage, you play with inject - their macro mechanic which could be snowball inducing in the DH model.
On April 13 2015 01:00 ZeromuS wrote: I think its worth trying it with the closer to current model, then maybe drop the minerals if we find its too much, and if only Zerg is a huge advantage, you play with inject - their macro mechanic which could be snowball inducing in the DH model.
I explained further what happens with the drones can you confirm that it's intentional?
On April 13 2015 01:00 ZeromuS wrote: I think its worth trying it with the closer to current model, then maybe drop the minerals if we find its too much, and if only Zerg is a huge advantage, you play with inject - their macro mechanic which could be snowball inducing in the DH model.
There are other knobs to turn besides just inject as well, it's not a difficult fix per-say.
On April 13 2015 01:00 ZeromuS wrote: I think its worth trying it with the closer to current model, then maybe drop the minerals if we find its too much, and if only Zerg is a huge advantage, you play with inject - their macro mechanic which could be snowball inducing in the DH model.
I explained further what happens with the drones can you confirm that it's intentional?
You interrupted the mining cycle of 1 and replaced him with 2.
If i read that correctly its exactly what happens in the model and is in a way intended since we dont have access to the AI to set and maintain priority on worker 1 to stay on the mineral node and bounce number 2 instead of number 1.
On April 13 2015 01:00 ZeromuS wrote: I think its worth trying it with the closer to current model, then maybe drop the minerals if we find its too much, and if only Zerg is a huge advantage, you play with inject - their macro mechanic which could be snowball inducing in the DH model.
I explained further what happens with the drones can you confirm that it's intentional?
You interrupted the mining cycle of 1 and replaced him with 2.
If i read that correctly its exactly what happens in the model and is in a way intended since we dont have access to the AI to set and maintain priority on worker 1 to stay on the mineral node and bounce number 2 instead of number 1.
Ah ok, I would strongly suggest that they do set priority on the already mining worker I would assume this also changes the efficiency so probably making it 4/4 minerals mined would set it more inline. I'm probably just too hung up on that for it to be worth the effort.
On April 12 2015 20:49 Teoita wrote: While that's true, you have to remember that managing worker counts across all bases for the whole game becomes much more important, so i think it's a good tradeoff in the end. I agree losing early game worker micro isn't great though.
Either lalush extension mod is bugged or there's a big flaw with this model. I tried force pairing workers and what I found was sometimes (after the first mining packet) if you force a worker to mine that patch the worker will force the one that was halfway through mining off of the patch. I then tried to replicate that without having clicked anything and I noticed very rarely but it does happen sometimes that the workers automatically override the others. I assume this isn't intentional?
If I'm correct, that's the double harvest model. In the double harvest model, the workers go through 2 cycles of mining of 5 minerals each, and if a worker comes up to the patch while another is mining, it's entirely possible that they will kick them off the mineral patch and start mining before the other worker has time to mine a full 10 minerals. This is the intention of the double harvest model and part of the reason why it doesn't has as high of a curve as the double mining model (double the mining time for 10 minerals). It's supposed to make the mining overall less efficient unless you have a 1:1 ratio of workers to nodes.
On April 12 2015 20:49 Teoita wrote: While that's true, you have to remember that managing worker counts across all bases for the whole game becomes much more important, so i think it's a good tradeoff in the end. I agree losing early game worker micro isn't great though.
Either lalush extension mod is bugged or there's a big flaw with this model. I tried force pairing workers and what I found was sometimes (after the first mining packet) if you force a worker to mine that patch the worker will force the one that was halfway through mining off of the patch. I then tried to replicate that without having clicked anything and I noticed very rarely but it does happen sometimes that the workers automatically override the others. I assume this isn't intentional?
If I'm correct, that's the double harvest model. In the double harvest model, the workers go through 2 cycles of mining of 5 minerals each, and if a worker comes up to the patch while another is mining, it's entirely possible that they will kick them off the mineral patch and start mining before the other worker has time to mine a full 10 minerals. This is the intention of the double harvest model and part of the reason why it doesn't has as high of a curve as the double mining model (double the mining time for 10 minerals). It's supposed to make the mining overall less efficient unless you have a 1:1 ratio of workers to nodes.
That doesn't make sense, Worker 2 coming to mine will still bounce and keep the 1:1 ratio, but kicking the harvester already mining off doesn't make sense and only wastes every so often the 5 minerals already harvested.
Wow... really GREAT analysis and write-up. I sooo hope Blizzard wises up and implements this exactly as its recommended here. Seems as though it would truly be a great fix to so many of the problems that people have been complaining about for the past five years!
On April 13 2015 00:48 Teoita wrote: I think it kind of does that - the first few workers are more efficient because they have access to the gold nodes. In that model, you have higher income on 4bases because you have access to more gold nodes. Am i missing anything?
I suppose your right to some extent. The issues are similar to the LotV model in that the gold nodes are going to mine out quicker than the blue nodes (at the proposed 7/4 model it takes about 30% longer to mine out the blue ones). You could change the values on the golds to correct this, but that is kinda weird (having two kinds of gold minerals). The mmpm graph also looks unnatural. I'm not convinced that its necessarily better than DH as a result. DH feels like a very organic solution (so does FRB for that matter) whereas gold nodes and mixed minerals don;t.
Yeah, having access to more bases means that more of your 24 nodes will be gold, returning 7 minerals per trip, as opposed to blue ones returning 4 per trip (in the version that most closely matches HotS per-saturated-base values)
At the theoretical limit, with 24 gold nodes on 8 bases, you'd be mining 136% of the minerals mined by someone saturating 3 bases with the same number of workers. On a more realistic upper limit of 6 bases to 3, you'd still have a 22% advantage.
Alternatively you could ditch 12 workers (or take four gases) and still match your 3 base opponent's mineral income.
I get that the graphs don't look as 'organic', but from a design perspective I'd argue that the simple clarity of "These patches are better and by expanding player X has more of them than player Y with the same worker count" is more understandable and accessible.
EDIT: Also, Blizzard's attitude to making unit AI look worse is well-established, which makes me very doubtful DH will ever fly. So even if salt'n'pepper blue/gold bases aren't as "good", the fact they achieve quite a lot in the right direction without introducing anything else new, without meaningfully increasing what's possible off X saturated bases, and without making anything look worse than before... that's a big deal.
And it isn't even my idea, which makes me a sad panda...
so basically you wrote a massive post to say you want broodwar economy back? Well instead of writing a massive response I'll just say that the reason for double pairing is to reduce the overall size of the armies, by forcing the players to make a lot more workers it reduces overall max army size making it more manageable for most players.
On April 12 2015 20:49 Teoita wrote: While that's true, you have to remember that managing worker counts across all bases for the whole game becomes much more important, so i think it's a good tradeoff in the end. I agree losing early game worker micro isn't great though.
Either lalush extension mod is bugged or there's a big flaw with this model. I tried force pairing workers and what I found was sometimes (after the first mining packet) if you force a worker to mine that patch the worker will force the one that was halfway through mining off of the patch. I then tried to replicate that without having clicked anything and I noticed very rarely but it does happen sometimes that the workers automatically override the others. I assume this isn't intentional?
If I'm correct, that's the double harvest model. In the double harvest model, the workers go through 2 cycles of mining of 5 minerals each, and if a worker comes up to the patch while another is mining, it's entirely possible that they will kick them off the mineral patch and start mining before the other worker has time to mine a full 10 minerals. This is the intention of the double harvest model and part of the reason why it doesn't has as high of a curve as the double mining model (double the mining time for 10 minerals). It's supposed to make the mining overall less efficient unless you have a 1:1 ratio of workers to nodes.
That doesn't make sense, Worker 2 coming to mine will still bounce and keep the 1:1 ratio, but kicking the harvester already mining off doesn't make sense and only wastes every so often the 5 minerals already harvested.
you dont lose the 5 minerals already harvested. The worker holds onto them and returns them with the next 5 (total 10).
similar to the "hold money" option in Age of Empires I think it was?
On April 13 2015 00:48 Teoita wrote: I think it kind of does that - the first few workers are more efficient because they have access to the gold nodes. In that model, you have higher income on 4bases because you have access to more gold nodes. Am i missing anything?
I suppose your right to some extent. The issues are similar to the LotV model in that the gold nodes are going to mine out quicker than the blue nodes (at the proposed 7/4 model it takes about 30% longer to mine out the blue ones). You could change the values on the golds to correct this, but that is kinda weird (having two kinds of gold minerals). The mmpm graph also looks unnatural. I'm not convinced that its necessarily better than DH as a result. DH feels like a very organic solution (so does FRB for that matter) whereas gold nodes and mixed minerals don;t.
Yeah, having access to more bases means that more of your 24 nodes will be gold, returning 7 minerals per trip, as opposed to blue ones returning 4 per trip (in the version that most closely matches HotS per-saturated-base values)
At the theoretical limit, with 24 gold nodes on 8 bases, you'd be mining 136% of the minerals mined by someone saturating 3 bases with the same number of workers. On a more realistic upper limit of 6 bases to 3, you'd still have a 22% advantage.
Alternatively you could ditch 12 workers (or take four gases) and still match your 3 base opponent's mineral income.
I get that the graphs don't look as 'organic', but from a design perspective I'd argue that the simple clarity of "These patches are better and by expanding player X has more of them than player Y with the same worker count" is more understandable and accessible.
EDIT: Also, Blizzard's attitude to making unit AI look worse is well-established, which makes me very doubtful DH will ever fly. So even if salt'n'pepper blue/gold bases aren't as "good", the fact they achieve quite a lot in the right direction without introducing anything else new, without meaningfully increasing what's possible off X saturated bases, and without making anything look worse than before... that's a big deal.
And it isn't even my idea, which makes me a sad panda...
Honestly the biggest issue is that it doesn't remove pairing and that while it might be a better income the goal of the mod isn't to just make more money.
It happens to, but it doesn't have to.
You also ignore the fact that the AI doesn't want to pair if it can help it. If there are open patches (blues) next to the golds, workers will eventually try to spread out to both gold and blues, so you would need to spend a lot of time to force workers to pair.
Its much more worth spending time to spread workers than it is to force them to pair on 5 or 6 base. IMO.
It could solve it maybe? but we would need to make a map and begin testing it a lot. And I think the idea of "spreading workers evenly" is much simpler than saying "pair workers on the gold mineral patches by spamming right click to get the AI to click and check back to ensure they are doing it".
On April 13 2015 02:17 Bazik wrote: so basically you wrote a massive post to say you want broodwar economy back? Well instead of writing a massive response I'll just say that the reason for double pairing is to reduce the overall size of the armies, by forcing the players to make a lot more workers it reduces overall max army size making it more manageable for most players.
'reducing the overall size of armies' has led to years of 200/200 deathball fights?
In this approach you dont necessarily need less workers, but to reap the full benefit of having more workers, you need to spread them over more bases. You cant just slam 80 workers on 3 bases and call it done. The 3base style is exactly what leads to turtling until both players get 200/200
On April 12 2015 20:49 Teoita wrote: While that's true, you have to remember that managing worker counts across all bases for the whole game becomes much more important, so i think it's a good tradeoff in the end. I agree losing early game worker micro isn't great though.
Either lalush extension mod is bugged or there's a big flaw with this model. I tried force pairing workers and what I found was sometimes (after the first mining packet) if you force a worker to mine that patch the worker will force the one that was halfway through mining off of the patch. I then tried to replicate that without having clicked anything and I noticed very rarely but it does happen sometimes that the workers automatically override the others. I assume this isn't intentional?
If I'm correct, that's the double harvest model. In the double harvest model, the workers go through 2 cycles of mining of 5 minerals each, and if a worker comes up to the patch while another is mining, it's entirely possible that they will kick them off the mineral patch and start mining before the other worker has time to mine a full 10 minerals. This is the intention of the double harvest model and part of the reason why it doesn't has as high of a curve as the double mining model (double the mining time for 10 minerals). It's supposed to make the mining overall less efficient unless you have a 1:1 ratio of workers to nodes.
That doesn't make sense, Worker 2 coming to mine will still bounce and keep the 1:1 ratio, but kicking the harvester already mining off doesn't make sense and only wastes every so often the 5 minerals already harvested.
you dont lose the 5 minerals already harvested. The worker holds onto them and returns them with the next 5 (total 10).
similar to the "hold money" option in Age of Empires I think it was?
Ah, makes more sense. Still we've got almost a year before the game is released, I think something more elegant can be though of that enables some interaction with workers rather than allocating them correctly across bases.
On April 13 2015 02:17 Bazik wrote: so basically you wrote a massive post to say you want broodwar economy back? Well instead of writing a massive response I'll just say that the reason for double pairing is to reduce the overall size of the armies, by forcing the players to make a lot more workers it reduces overall max army size making it more manageable for most players.
makes no sense : -no one wants "brood war economy back", but a better econ for SC2 -double pairing doesn't force the player to make a lot more worker than no pairing -army size have little to do with ease of manageability in SC2, considering the existence of deathballs + unlimited selection. Some small armies are harder to control than bigger armies, depending on race and MU
On April 12 2015 17:44 Whitewing wrote: Unfortunately, that's outside the realm of an economic system, as the base count you can secure is limited by maps and map design, which is rather prohibitive in that regard. Having 6 bases quickly enough that none of them are mined out by the time you've taken the 6th is already rather unlikely, 8 is pretty impossible to design a map for as is, unless you're taking your opponent's bases or something ridiculous (in which case, win the game already).
I chose 8 because that seem close to the limit of what I can imagine for a reasonable map.
On April 12 2015 17:44 Whitewing wrote: Raising the supply cap is pretty much out of the question: it's set at 200 deliberately by Blizzard because they want the game to run on lower end machines which wouldn't be able to handle more units. I would expect that to remain non-negotiable.
One can hope. I also would like to have a bigger army on "just" 6 bases. Computers have had a few years to improve since 2005. At 250 Max army 2 vs 2 would be like having one more max army. An unfair nitpick is that Blizzard could double the cap if they doubled the effect of units and structures on supply .
P.S. Why is it that no one seems to be mentioning that Bob and Chris graph? Seriously though, if I didn't think your OP was any good I wouldn't have bothered criticizing what I think is a noticeable flaw in it.
On April 13 2015 02:35 Pr0wler wrote: Hopefully someone in Blizzard will read this... I doubt it tho.
I honestly do think theyll read it ( or someone working at blizzard will). But in the end, even if that person is completely convinced, getting a huge company like blizzard to actually work with something like this is not an easy task. But who knows, maybe itll get somewhere.
*Lunker a lot of people have mentioned the bob and chris graph.
So I read through the article until I hit the part that it essentially said "The smarter AI is shit, give me back my bw workers". aka "the true culprit" and "breaking the cap" type of things. Then I simply skimmed the rest.
While I can't argue with the data because it sounds correct based off of my experience, I can argue with your conclusions and your concerns which I feel to be opinionated. What you see as a concern with the half patch system I see as the intended goal and overall.
While both players may be mining out the half patches in their main, the aggressor is in a much more advantageous position than the defender when one considers the impact that map control has on the ability to secure additional mineral nodes. In short, the half patch approach does more than impact the three base cap. It places a timer on all players that is effectively half the length it was in HotS to maintain their mining curve. If a player cannot maintain their mining curve while on one base their income drops by 50%.
You set this out as to be bad but it really isn't. This is the type of gameplay that people have been asking for and it was the goal to make players more aggressive. The way that you state this is as if the defending player has absolutely no chance to come back just because he doesn't have map control. But this just isn't the way the game will play out unless the defensive player does nothing for about 10 minutes. Most pressures or ways of grabbing this map control is always on a knife's edge between putting yourself ahead or behind and it is most obvious in zerg vs zerg.
Lets say we are on 2 base. I feel like being the aggressor so i make 24 lings to take map control. Yay, i control the map, he can't expand. But who is ahead? Obviously it is still the defensive player because I didn't deal any damage to him and now he has 12 more drones than I do. Okay so lets say he spotted my lings leaving and made lings of his own and we still don't fight. He is still ahead because he made a round of drones before the lings and still took no damage. Now lets look at if I attack him. I send my 24 lings in. Kill a queens and maybe 4 drones before his lings pop out and kills my lings. Am I still ahead? Maybe but probably not and I lost my map control. If I was to keep building lings and attacking then i've gone all in and have to win now. The new half patches don't change any of this and a similar area will happen in the other MUs because when the aggressive player stops building the aggressive units to expand then the defensive player, depending on the state of the game, will probably be able to bust out of the contain.
The reason I bring up the 2 bases is because this is the only spot where the 'timer' really comes into affect as once you hit 3+ bases both sides should be trading blows unless you try to play certain styles which brings up your next concern.
Another concern associated with the half patch approach is how it limits some of the strategic diversity currently in StarCraft due to its impact on the mining curve. Players are not able to choose to play defensively for an extended period of time while teching prior to obtaining an expansion or building a large and powerful army while slowly expanding.
You're right. Half patch limits SOME strategic diversity as in it hurts the players who sit on 2 base for 10+ minutes. These styles include, the old swarm host, turtle mech, and the extreme turtle protoss. The 3 MOST HATED styles in the game. So why is this a concern? I have no idea. The first 8-10 minutes of the game is going to be the same just sped up due to the worker increase. Most styles and players will always expand to a third and due to the half patch they will keep expanding because at the 8-10 minute mark their eco starts to get cut in half.
So yeah.I don't see any issues with the half-patch system. It does exactly what blizzard wanted and exactly what people have been asking for. It will end up as both sides needing to be more aggressive. Creating faster gameplay which is 100 times better than what it has been. Is there a chance that once the aggression/all in balance gets figured out and safe passive builds are made that we will go back to a HotS style gameplay? Possibly, but again because people have to expand beyond 3 bases by like the 10 minute mark else take a hit in their economy it makes those passive builds harder to do.
These styles include, the old swarm host, turtle mech, and the extreme turtle protoss. The 3 MOST HATED styles in the game.
So why stop at half patches and instead make every mineral patch 500? That would REALLY punish those darn turtlers. At some point, you kinda just need bases to have money to allow you to set up, stabilize, build up your infrastructure, tech and still have money to make a few rounds of armies. It's the rate of income that is the main thing rather than the sum of resources that will have the best impact on gameplay.
The thing is the higher efficiency of more bases, combined with more gas, plus the increased longevity all the mineral bases combined (because your workers are more spread out) all gives the turtle player many, many reasons to get out on the map and start shutting expansions down or else harass like hell. Whereas if 3 base and 5 base has the same income due to 100% worker efficiency, the turtle player doesn't have a reason to move out on to the map until they've got their perfect composition. Giving an advantage to the player with more bases with more spread out workers actually gives a reason for the turtle player to stop turtling... or suffer the consequences.
On April 13 2015 02:46 UltiBahamut wrote: So I read through the article until I hit the part that it essentially said "The smarter AI is shit, give me back my bw workers". aka "the true culprit" and "breaking the cap" type of things. Then I simply skimmed the rest.
I think you should read the entire article as you have completely missed the point of it. You are attacking "opinionated" claims.
I never said the half patch was so bad we should return to HotS. I feel there are however better solutions. I also agreed in my article that the way blizzard approached the issue is a viable solution to the three base turtle problem. If you had read the whole thing you would understand that I am not arguing to remove the three base cap. The three base cap is just a colloquial expression of the true issue - the worker pairing resulting in removed incentives for expanding due to needing fewer bases for optimal income.
And if you had read the entire article you would see I did FAR more than just claim "I WANT BW BACK"
That is not what I claimed. At all.
I did not claim that I want a return to "turtle" play as we know it. I also made a concession that 1500 patches are possibly too many minerals on each base to begin with.
Skimming the rest means you skimmed some 80% of the article. I suggest you read it all before you start attacking a position I don't necessarily hold as strongly as you did.
I think there is a better way of achieving the goal of blizzard in encouraging aggressive play through rewards that aren't met with punishments on the other side.
That was far too long of a post for me to read. I read half of it and I understand the gist of the problem. Brood War was very basic in movements, but it introduced so many different strategies and unique techniques
On April 12 2015 20:49 Teoita wrote: While that's true, you have to remember that managing worker counts across all bases for the whole game becomes much more important, so i think it's a good tradeoff in the end. I agree losing early game worker micro isn't great though.
Either lalush extension mod is bugged or there's a big flaw with this model. I tried force pairing workers and what I found was sometimes (after the first mining packet) if you force a worker to mine that patch the worker will force the one that was halfway through mining off of the patch. I then tried to replicate that without having clicked anything and I noticed very rarely but it does happen sometimes that the workers automatically override the others. I assume this isn't intentional?
If I'm correct, that's the double harvest model. In the double harvest model, the workers go through 2 cycles of mining of 5 minerals each, and if a worker comes up to the patch while another is mining, it's entirely possible that they will kick them off the mineral patch and start mining before the other worker has time to mine a full 10 minerals. This is the intention of the double harvest model and part of the reason why it doesn't has as high of a curve as the double mining model (double the mining time for 10 minerals). It's supposed to make the mining overall less efficient unless you have a 1:1 ratio of workers to nodes.
That doesn't make sense, Worker 2 coming to mine will still bounce and keep the 1:1 ratio, but kicking the harvester already mining off doesn't make sense and only wastes every so often the 5 minerals already harvested.
you dont lose the 5 minerals already harvested. The worker holds onto them and returns them with the next 5 (total 10).
similar to the "hold money" option in Age of Empires I think it was?
On April 13 2015 00:48 Teoita wrote: I think it kind of does that - the first few workers are more efficient because they have access to the gold nodes. In that model, you have higher income on 4bases because you have access to more gold nodes. Am i missing anything?
I suppose your right to some extent. The issues are similar to the LotV model in that the gold nodes are going to mine out quicker than the blue nodes (at the proposed 7/4 model it takes about 30% longer to mine out the blue ones). You could change the values on the golds to correct this, but that is kinda weird (having two kinds of gold minerals). The mmpm graph also looks unnatural. I'm not convinced that its necessarily better than DH as a result. DH feels like a very organic solution (so does FRB for that matter) whereas gold nodes and mixed minerals don;t.
Yeah, having access to more bases means that more of your 24 nodes will be gold, returning 7 minerals per trip, as opposed to blue ones returning 4 per trip (in the version that most closely matches HotS per-saturated-base values)
At the theoretical limit, with 24 gold nodes on 8 bases, you'd be mining 136% of the minerals mined by someone saturating 3 bases with the same number of workers. On a more realistic upper limit of 6 bases to 3, you'd still have a 22% advantage.
Alternatively you could ditch 12 workers (or take four gases) and still match your 3 base opponent's mineral income.
I get that the graphs don't look as 'organic', but from a design perspective I'd argue that the simple clarity of "These patches are better and by expanding player X has more of them than player Y with the same worker count" is more understandable and accessible.
EDIT: Also, Blizzard's attitude to making unit AI look worse is well-established, which makes me very doubtful DH will ever fly. So even if salt'n'pepper blue/gold bases aren't as "good", the fact they achieve quite a lot in the right direction without introducing anything else new, without meaningfully increasing what's possible off X saturated bases, and without making anything look worse than before... that's a big deal.
And it isn't even my idea, which makes me a sad panda...
Honestly the biggest issue is that it doesn't remove pairing and that while it might be a better income the goal of the mod isn't to just make more money.
I might be wrong, but I think you've fallen into something like a circular argument.
In the OP you write this:
The mining cap is therefore set by interactions at the worker level, which will be discussed in greater detail further into the article.
But we now know that isn't true. Even with full worker pairing, it's perfectly possible to increase your income by spreading workers across more bases, if those bases mix gold and blue patches.
With DH, the first 8 workers on a base mine more than the second 8. Well, with gold/blue bases, the first 6 workers mine more than the last 10. The end result is pretty much the same - the graphs may be a slightly different shape, but neither of us know enough right now to say which graph suits the game better.
I think you've got hung up on 'fixing' worker pairing. Worker pairing is necessary for the HotS mining cap but not sufficient to create it. Removing worker pairing is one way of making more bases worth having, but it's not the only way.
Also, saying that the goal isn't just to make more money seems a bit wonky. If you want having more bases to be better than having fewer with the same worker count, you have to be talking about income differential. That IS the goal.
You also ignore the fact that the AI doesn't want to pair if it can help it. If there are open patches (blues) next to the golds, workers will eventually try to spread out to both gold and blues, so you would need to spend a lot of time to force workers to pair.
Its much more worth spending time to spread workers than it is to force them to pair on 5 or 6 base. IMO.
If that's the case (I don't know; I haven't tested it) that would be a problem, although not insurmountable.
And I think the idea of "spreading workers evenly" is much simpler than saying "pair workers on the gold mineral patches by spamming right click to get the AI to click and check back to ensure they are doing it".
It's simpler to do, certainly, but that's not necessarily the objective. What I'm talking about is the difference between:
Putting gold patches - something everyone already knows is a good thing to get if you can, into every base
and
Making workers look more stupid than they used to be and hoping people figure out that expanding more often is the way to stop them derping around.
In all honesty, if Blizzard had a gun to their head and had to implement one, which do you think it would be?
On April 12 2015 20:49 Teoita wrote: While that's true, you have to remember that managing worker counts across all bases for the whole game becomes much more important, so i think it's a good tradeoff in the end. I agree losing early game worker micro isn't great though.
Either lalush extension mod is bugged or there's a big flaw with this model. I tried force pairing workers and what I found was sometimes (after the first mining packet) if you force a worker to mine that patch the worker will force the one that was halfway through mining off of the patch. I then tried to replicate that without having clicked anything and I noticed very rarely but it does happen sometimes that the workers automatically override the others. I assume this isn't intentional?
If I'm correct, that's the double harvest model. In the double harvest model, the workers go through 2 cycles of mining of 5 minerals each, and if a worker comes up to the patch while another is mining, it's entirely possible that they will kick them off the mineral patch and start mining before the other worker has time to mine a full 10 minerals. This is the intention of the double harvest model and part of the reason why it doesn't has as high of a curve as the double mining model (double the mining time for 10 minerals). It's supposed to make the mining overall less efficient unless you have a 1:1 ratio of workers to nodes.
That doesn't make sense, Worker 2 coming to mine will still bounce and keep the 1:1 ratio, but kicking the harvester already mining off doesn't make sense and only wastes every so often the 5 minerals already harvested.
you dont lose the 5 minerals already harvested. The worker holds onto them and returns them with the next 5 (total 10).
similar to the "hold money" option in Age of Empires I think it was?
On April 13 2015 01:47 Umpteen wrote:
On April 13 2015 00:53 Plexa wrote:
On April 13 2015 00:48 Teoita wrote: I think it kind of does that - the first few workers are more efficient because they have access to the gold nodes. In that model, you have higher income on 4bases because you have access to more gold nodes. Am i missing anything?
I suppose your right to some extent. The issues are similar to the LotV model in that the gold nodes are going to mine out quicker than the blue nodes (at the proposed 7/4 model it takes about 30% longer to mine out the blue ones). You could change the values on the golds to correct this, but that is kinda weird (having two kinds of gold minerals). The mmpm graph also looks unnatural. I'm not convinced that its necessarily better than DH as a result. DH feels like a very organic solution (so does FRB for that matter) whereas gold nodes and mixed minerals don;t.
Yeah, having access to more bases means that more of your 24 nodes will be gold, returning 7 minerals per trip, as opposed to blue ones returning 4 per trip (in the version that most closely matches HotS per-saturated-base values)
At the theoretical limit, with 24 gold nodes on 8 bases, you'd be mining 136% of the minerals mined by someone saturating 3 bases with the same number of workers. On a more realistic upper limit of 6 bases to 3, you'd still have a 22% advantage.
Alternatively you could ditch 12 workers (or take four gases) and still match your 3 base opponent's mineral income.
I get that the graphs don't look as 'organic', but from a design perspective I'd argue that the simple clarity of "These patches are better and by expanding player X has more of them than player Y with the same worker count" is more understandable and accessible.
EDIT: Also, Blizzard's attitude to making unit AI look worse is well-established, which makes me very doubtful DH will ever fly. So even if salt'n'pepper blue/gold bases aren't as "good", the fact they achieve quite a lot in the right direction without introducing anything else new, without meaningfully increasing what's possible off X saturated bases, and without making anything look worse than before... that's a big deal.
And it isn't even my idea, which makes me a sad panda...
Honestly the biggest issue is that it doesn't remove pairing and that while it might be a better income the goal of the mod isn't to just make more money.
I might be wrong, but I think you've fallen into something like a circular argument.
The mining cap is therefore set by interactions at the worker level, which will be discussed in greater detail further into the article.
But we now know that isn't true. Even with full worker pairing, it's perfectly possible to increase your income by spreading workers across more bases, if those bases mix gold and blue patches.
With DH, the first 8 workers on a base mine more than the second 8. Well, with gold/blue bases, the first 6 workers mine more than the last 10. The end result is pretty much the same - the graphs may be a slightly different shape, but neither of us know enough right now to say which graph suits the game better.
I think you've got hung up on 'fixing' worker pairing. Worker pairing is necessary for the HotS mining cap but not sufficient to create it. Removing worker pairing is one way of making more bases worth having, but it's not the only way.
Also, saying that the goal isn't just to make more money seems a bit wonky. If you want having more bases to be better than having fewer with the same worker count, you have to be talking about income differential. That IS the goal.
You also ignore the fact that the AI doesn't want to pair if it can help it. If there are open patches (blues) next to the golds, workers will eventually try to spread out to both gold and blues, so you would need to spend a lot of time to force workers to pair.
Its much more worth spending time to spread workers than it is to force them to pair on 5 or 6 base. IMO.
If that's the case (I don't know; I haven't tested it) that would be a problem, although not insurmountable.
And I think the idea of "spreading workers evenly" is much simpler than saying "pair workers on the gold mineral patches by spamming right click to get the AI to click and check back to ensure they are doing it".
It's simpler to do, certainly, but that's not necessarily the objective. What I'm talking about is the difference between:
Putting gold patches - something everyone already knows is a good thing to get if you can, into every base
and
Making workers look more stupid than they used to be and hoping people figure out that expanding more often is the way to stop them derping around.
In all honesty, if Blizzard had a gun to their head and had to implement one, which do you think it would be?
There isn't a lot of hoping for people to expand more often because of worker bouncing.
They will learn if they want to play beyond an extremely casual level (like any other competitive game - see CSGO and bullet spray/movement influenced spread) and people who play very casually this will make zero difference to them.
I would be up for actually testing the gold mineral patches and blues being mixed but I dont know if it would be worth potentially changing the curve THAT much compared to HotS. You would need to make a map and test the numbers before I could REALLY support it.
I also think that visually it might become a mess. What is the correct gold to blue ratio? How many minerals do we put on the gold patches (they default mine quicker than blue patches which might have a half patch result if you dont do it right). Do the golds last TOO long (in total minerals given) once you make them bigger? Mules dont work on golds the same way regular workers do, so theres that whole thing to balance as well.
I feel like there are just soso many more variables when you do a mixed gold/blue patch system. The DH is just far more intuitive.
On April 12 2015 20:49 Teoita wrote: While that's true, you have to remember that managing worker counts across all bases for the whole game becomes much more important, so i think it's a good tradeoff in the end. I agree losing early game worker micro isn't great though.
Either lalush extension mod is bugged or there's a big flaw with this model. I tried force pairing workers and what I found was sometimes (after the first mining packet) if you force a worker to mine that patch the worker will force the one that was halfway through mining off of the patch. I then tried to replicate that without having clicked anything and I noticed very rarely but it does happen sometimes that the workers automatically override the others. I assume this isn't intentional?
If I'm correct, that's the double harvest model. In the double harvest model, the workers go through 2 cycles of mining of 5 minerals each, and if a worker comes up to the patch while another is mining, it's entirely possible that they will kick them off the mineral patch and start mining before the other worker has time to mine a full 10 minerals. This is the intention of the double harvest model and part of the reason why it doesn't has as high of a curve as the double mining model (double the mining time for 10 minerals). It's supposed to make the mining overall less efficient unless you have a 1:1 ratio of workers to nodes.
That doesn't make sense, Worker 2 coming to mine will still bounce and keep the 1:1 ratio, but kicking the harvester already mining off doesn't make sense and only wastes every so often the 5 minerals already harvested.
you dont lose the 5 minerals already harvested. The worker holds onto them and returns them with the next 5 (total 10).
similar to the "hold money" option in Age of Empires I think it was?
On April 13 2015 01:47 Umpteen wrote:
On April 13 2015 00:53 Plexa wrote:
On April 13 2015 00:48 Teoita wrote: I think it kind of does that - the first few workers are more efficient because they have access to the gold nodes. In that model, you have higher income on 4bases because you have access to more gold nodes. Am i missing anything?
I suppose your right to some extent. The issues are similar to the LotV model in that the gold nodes are going to mine out quicker than the blue nodes (at the proposed 7/4 model it takes about 30% longer to mine out the blue ones). You could change the values on the golds to correct this, but that is kinda weird (having two kinds of gold minerals). The mmpm graph also looks unnatural. I'm not convinced that its necessarily better than DH as a result. DH feels like a very organic solution (so does FRB for that matter) whereas gold nodes and mixed minerals don;t.
Yeah, having access to more bases means that more of your 24 nodes will be gold, returning 7 minerals per trip, as opposed to blue ones returning 4 per trip (in the version that most closely matches HotS per-saturated-base values)
At the theoretical limit, with 24 gold nodes on 8 bases, you'd be mining 136% of the minerals mined by someone saturating 3 bases with the same number of workers. On a more realistic upper limit of 6 bases to 3, you'd still have a 22% advantage.
Alternatively you could ditch 12 workers (or take four gases) and still match your 3 base opponent's mineral income.
I get that the graphs don't look as 'organic', but from a design perspective I'd argue that the simple clarity of "These patches are better and by expanding player X has more of them than player Y with the same worker count" is more understandable and accessible.
EDIT: Also, Blizzard's attitude to making unit AI look worse is well-established, which makes me very doubtful DH will ever fly. So even if salt'n'pepper blue/gold bases aren't as "good", the fact they achieve quite a lot in the right direction without introducing anything else new, without meaningfully increasing what's possible off X saturated bases, and without making anything look worse than before... that's a big deal.
And it isn't even my idea, which makes me a sad panda...
Honestly the biggest issue is that it doesn't remove pairing and that while it might be a better income the goal of the mod isn't to just make more money.
I might be wrong, but I think you've fallen into something like a circular argument.
The mining cap is therefore set by interactions at the worker level, which will be discussed in greater detail further into the article.
But we now know that isn't true. Even with full worker pairing, it's perfectly possible to increase your income by spreading workers across more bases, if those bases mix gold and blue patches.
With DH, the first 8 workers on a base mine more than the second 8. Well, with gold/blue bases, the first 6 workers mine more than the last 10. The end result is pretty much the same - the graphs may be a slightly different shape, but neither of us know enough right now to say which graph suits the game better.
I think you've got hung up on 'fixing' worker pairing. Worker pairing is necessary for the HotS mining cap but not sufficient to create it. Removing worker pairing is one way of making more bases worth having, but it's not the only way.
Also, saying that the goal isn't just to make more money seems a bit wonky. If you want having more bases to be better than having fewer with the same worker count, you have to be talking about income differential. That IS the goal.
You also ignore the fact that the AI doesn't want to pair if it can help it. If there are open patches (blues) next to the golds, workers will eventually try to spread out to both gold and blues, so you would need to spend a lot of time to force workers to pair.
Its much more worth spending time to spread workers than it is to force them to pair on 5 or 6 base. IMO.
If that's the case (I don't know; I haven't tested it) that would be a problem, although not insurmountable.
And I think the idea of "spreading workers evenly" is much simpler than saying "pair workers on the gold mineral patches by spamming right click to get the AI to click and check back to ensure they are doing it".
It's simpler to do, certainly, but that's not necessarily the objective. What I'm talking about is the difference between:
Putting gold patches - something everyone already knows is a good thing to get if you can, into every base
and
Making workers look more stupid than they used to be and hoping people figure out that expanding more often is the way to stop them derping around.
In all honesty, if Blizzard had a gun to their head and had to implement one, which do you think it would be?
The gold and blue mixed patches has a similar problem to the current model, in that the gold patches just mine out much faster.
On April 13 2015 00:48 Teoita wrote: I think it kind of does that - the first few workers are more efficient because they have access to the gold nodes. In that model, you have higher income on 4bases because you have access to more gold nodes. Am i missing anything?
I suppose your right to some extent. The issues are similar to the LotV model in that the gold nodes are going to mine out quicker than the blue nodes (at the proposed 7/4 model it takes about 30% longer to mine out the blue ones). You could change the values on the golds to correct this, but that is kinda weird (having two kinds of gold minerals). The mmpm graph also looks unnatural. I'm not convinced that its necessarily better than DH as a result. DH feels like a very organic solution (so does FRB for that matter) whereas gold nodes and mixed minerals don;t.
You know, I agree with you about what feels more "organic." I also think Blizzard might have a different opinion. It could be more productive for us to push for something that we think Blizzard will more likely accept, to give us the best chance of seeing improvements to the game we love.
They've mentioned in the past that they prefer not to make units dumber so from their point of view, switching to a couple gold patches might, to them, feel more organic.
There's only one way to find out. In fact, it turns TL's very own beloved Uvantak was interested in trying this out around the exact same time that the half-patch approach was announced by Blizzard.
On December 04 2014 15:24 MarlieChurphy wrote: Guys, great idea here. + Show Spoiler +
Regardless what blizzard does, what if we made our own maps and did something like this:
Since gold minerals mine faster and workers gather more per trip, and therefor for the same econ we need less workers and more bases.
What if as a standard we mixed gold and blue minerals in a set % so that we need less workers to saturate? And to compensate for the fact that they mine faster, what if we gave them all X% more per crystal so that they would mine out the same speed as the blue minerals? And to compensate for the extra minerals per base, what if we reduced the overall crystal chunks or overall reduced the percentage of the entire (8) cluster to even out to the normal 1500 or 1000 minerals count aka 9000 or 6000 total?
Would something like this be feasible?
This extra income early game, would also address the other issue of boring early game where everyone is just making workers. So we wouldn't need to start with 12 workers anymore, the game would start moving along faster, and rush strats would be less effected by the changes.
Like this?
Map is playable on EU & AM Servers under the name KTT Keynesian Theory, it has been on my shelf of to do's for a while but now that i have more time i'll try to finish it.
On April 13 2015 00:48 Teoita wrote: I think it kind of does that - the first few workers are more efficient because they have access to the gold nodes. In that model, you have higher income on 4bases because you have access to more gold nodes. Am i missing anything?
I suppose your right to some extent. The issues are similar to the LotV model in that the gold nodes are going to mine out quicker than the blue nodes (at the proposed 7/4 model it takes about 30% longer to mine out the blue ones). You could change the values on the golds to correct this, but that is kinda weird (having two kinds of gold minerals). The mmpm graph also looks unnatural. I'm not convinced that its necessarily better than DH as a result. DH feels like a very organic solution (so does FRB for that matter) whereas gold nodes and mixed minerals don;t.
You know, I agree with you about what feels more "organic." I also think Blizzard might have a different opinion. It could be more productive for us to push for something that we think Blizzard will more likely accept, to give us the best chance of seeing improvements to the game we love.
They've mentioned in the past that they prefer not to make units dumber so from their point of view, switching to a couple gold patches might, to them, feel more organic.
There's only one way to find out. In fact, it turns TL's very own beloved Uvantak was interested in trying this out around the exact same time that the half-patch approach was announced by Blizzard.
On December 04 2014 15:24 MarlieChurphy wrote: Guys, great idea here. + Show Spoiler +
Regardless what blizzard does, what if we made our own maps and did something like this:
Since gold minerals mine faster and workers gather more per trip, and therefor for the same econ we need less workers and more bases.
What if as a standard we mixed gold and blue minerals in a set % so that we need less workers to saturate? And to compensate for the fact that they mine faster, what if we gave them all X% more per crystal so that they would mine out the same speed as the blue minerals? And to compensate for the extra minerals per base, what if we reduced the overall crystal chunks or overall reduced the percentage of the entire (8) cluster to even out to the normal 1500 or 1000 minerals count aka 9000 or 6000 total?
Would something like this be feasible?
This extra income early game, would also address the other issue of boring early game where everyone is just making workers. So we wouldn't need to start with 12 workers anymore, the game would start moving along faster, and rush strats would be less effected by the changes.
Like this?
Map is playable on EU & AM Servers under the name KTT Keynesian Theory, it has been on my shelf of to do's for a while but now that i have more time i'll try to finish it.
♦ Golden minerals have 2100 instead of 1500 to try compensate for the increased mining they will see ♦ Vespene Geysers are untouched.
Yuzisee please note that the 3g3b system will still fall behind a no worker pairing system like DH or a BW like economy. Yes it is an improvement to HotS or LotV systems, but any system that *tries to fight worker pairing will be*.
/edit altered because I was being too harsh on LotV economy for no reason*
Dear Zeromus, let's forget about all the graphs for a moment and try to see the bigger picture :
- player A and B are starting the game with the same stuff. they build their economy, expand and none of the early skirmishes gives any player an advantage.
- when they're both on 3 bases, players A decides to play defensive until he builds his death ball army.
- decision 1 : seeing this, player B decides he will expand all over the map be as greedy as he can to enter late game with the biggest bank possible. He also tries to trade armies when he can but the defensive play of player A doesn't allow much.
- decision 2 : when his main starts to dry out player A wants to take a 4th base.
The proposed changes to the econmy, will give a boost to player B when he takes decision one. That the option your seem to prefer, it's the incentive to expand more
Blizzard on the other hand tries to weaken player A when he takes decision 2 : he has a much smaller army at this point in LotV than in HotS. It's the punition for expanding less.
My problem here is that we had multiple of games when this scenario occured, and recently Yoda vs soO on KSS in SPL was an excellent example, but very few times the fact that player B had a crazy bank really solved the issue. I general these game ended one day or another when the map was actually mined out. taht Yoda vs soO game is the worst example of this, soO banking 14k mins 12 k gaz only to loose pitifully vs Yoda's perfect mech comp.
So how would the new economy concept you propose here would actually solve anything? is 2100 k mins per minute vs 2500 kmins per minute the real issue here?
Blizzard approach (which I don't like) may have its flaws but at least solves the matter albeit in a brutal way. Anyway, shouldn't the issue be solved above all with better units and maps?
Beside this, your spreadshit doesn't show what happens after 16 workers for double mining and double harvest. it annoys me a bit, cause the HotS system is all about having a loss of efficiency after 16 workers, we need to compare the 3 models for this.
Last, the income for double harvest and double mining for 8 workers on one base seems extremely high. we're talking about a 100 to 150 mins per minute difference here, wouldn't this impact the game too much?
Great article. From the games I watched of LotV I too felt that the economy was somewhat too punishing for a defensive style. I like that they are trying to solve the 2-3 base turtle styles but in general, playing defensive should be a valid strategy. Therefore I think the proposed changes are good. It's better too reward players for expanding instead of punishing them if they don't. If my opponent does not want to come out of his base, I have free map control and should be able to pressure him by expaning beyond the 3. base. This is not really possible in HotS. It would be with the proposed changes, all the while keeping defensive play in the game.
On April 13 2015 04:23 Gwavajuice wrote: Dear Zeromus, let's forget about all the graphs for a moment and try to see the bigger picture :
- player A and B are starting the game with the same stuff. they build their economy, expand and none of the early skirmishes gives any player an advantage.
- when they're both on 3 bases, players A decides to play defensive until he builds his death ball army.
- decision 1 : seeing this, player B decides he will expand all over the map be as greedy as he can to enter late game with the biggest bank possible. He also tries to trade armies when he can but the defensive play of player A doesn't allow much.
- decision 2 : when his main starts to dry out player A wants to take a 4th base.
The proposed changes to the econmy, will give a boost to player B when he takes decision one. That the option your seem to prefer, it's the incentive to expand more
Blizzard on the other hand tries to weaken player A when he takes decision 2 : he has a much smaller army at this point in LotV than in HotS. It's the punition for expanding less.
My problem here is that we had multiple of games when this scenario occured, and recently Yoda vs soO on KSS in SPL was an excellent example, but very few times the fact that player B had a crazy bank really solved the issue. I general these game ended one day or another when the map was actually mined out. taht Yoda vs soO game is the worst example of this, soO banking 14k mins 12 k gaz only to loose pitifully vs Yoda's perfect mech comp.
So how would the new economy concept you propose here would actually solve anything? is 2100 k mins per minute vs 2500 kmins per minute the real issue here?
Blizzard approach (which I don't like) may have its flaws but at least solves the matter albeit in a brutal way. Anyway, shouldn't the issue be solved above all with better units and maps?
Beside this, your spreadshit doesn't show what happens after 16 workers for double mining and double harvest. it annoys me a bit, cause the HotS system is all about having a loss of efficiency after 16 workers, we need to compare the 3 models for this.
Last, the income for double harvest and double mining for 8 workers on one base seems extremely high. we're talking about a 100 to 150 mins per minute difference here, wouldn't this impact the game too much?
Well you need to consider that the increased income starts early so its more than just a 400 mineral a minute advantage. Its a slowly snowballing advantage from the start of the game.With extra money the player with more bases can slow down the growth of the turtle player (killing workers, picking off bits of army).
The biggest problem in HotS is that the NET trades are always better for the turtle player because both players have the same income most of the time.
Lets say both players have a similar income of 2000 per minute minerals (and associated gas).
The player on 6 base has 2k income and the three base player also has 2k income in HotS.
When the 6 base player trades 1k of units per minute inefficiently into the 3 base player to try and chip their large mech or whatever army away, the mech player might lose 700 mineals.
This means the net gain for the 6 base player is 1k minerals, and the turtle player has 1.3k net income. So the trades are always 100% better for the turtle player in this scenario.
If the 6 base player instead made 2.5k (more money) the trades would be less advantageous for the turtle player. The Net incomes in the same scenario turn to 1.5k over 1.3k. This doesn't seem like a lot but when you consider how much longer the expanding player has been on the bases, and how many more gas the expanding player has access to, and how much more production/money the trades will favour the expander (they can climb the tech tree with more gas trading out their less efficient units).
Further the smaller bank (from chipping away) makes the turtle player need to trade more effectively with the actual fights mid map onwards. Consider also that in HotS you need to cut army to get more money. You can instead stay on similar worker counts in DH for a similar army supply. Or you can cut army to get an EVEN BIGGER income advantage (to grind out games vs turtlers more - especially important for Zergs vs Terran mech).
Add into this that by simply having more of the map owned and more money, if the expanding player can deny the very slow expansions from the turtle player (maps would need to support this but thats something we learn with time), then the turtle player has a LOT to chew through for basetrade scenarios. And it disincetivizes just amoving across the map (rebuild tech and reexpand elsewhere on the map etc with a bigger bank and mineral income).
It adds more pressure to the turtle player and allows for more effective trades even if those trades are cost inefficient. In HotS cost ineffective trades are brutal. The opponent has the same or similar income so trades will always always be in the advantage of the turtler, where the aggressor basically starves themselves out (SH ZvP) instead of starving the opponent out.
The double harvest sounds truly interesting. I wonder if Blizzard could really give it a go. That's the only way to make sure it works. If the beta is to be as long as they say NOW is the time to test things like this.
It's a good idea but is it a new idea? I feel like this has been talked about since the wol beta and I feel like Blizzard has already made statements/taken stances on dumbing down worker AI.
On April 13 2015 00:17 Barrin wrote: This article is fantastic and the double harvest method is definitely the best compromise yet (by far), but I must temper my praise with a serious concern that I forgot to finish explaining in PM (which thankfully can be addressed with a very simple tweak). + Show Spoiler +
To be blunt, you seem to have taken my admittedly-suboptimal FRB (6m,7m,etc) models at face value without fully understanding (or at least failing to convey here) the essence of my Breadth of Gameplay in SC2 article (the title of which I still feel is aptly named; the effects of the economy are far more reaching than the scope of even this article (as you already mentioned/know, granted)).
On April 12 2015 06:10 ZeromuS wrote: ... While half patches may introduce new strategies, it also removes others. The goal of LotV should be to increase strategic diversity as a whole by adding more options while removing less. ...
To be fair, pretty much any economic change is going to remove strategies. The question is how many new [types of] strategies does it introduce, and does it add more than it removes? While Double Harvest probably adds more than it removes (though you forgivably didn't demonstrate how), there are other factors that neither you touch on nor the current version of Double Harvest fixes or alleviates. More important than the general unit stats mentioned in my PM to you + Show Spoiler +
Granted, the unit design has gotten way better since WoL, but there are still some factors that could be tweaked to make units more encouraged to split up and attack/defend multiple areas, particularly movement speeds (too fast), survivability (too low), collision radius (too small), sight radius (too short), attack range (too short), splash radius (too small). This would actually enable and even give more meaning to expanding more widely.
is the Production/Tech/Economy dynamic explained in the section below.
To be clear, I feel a slightly modified version of this Double Harvest method is exactly what we're looking for. Specifically, I think workers should only put 4 (for 4+4=8 per trip) or 4.5 (for 4.5+4.5=9 per trip) as opposed to 5 (for 5+5=10 per trip) minerals in their "pocket". The Double Harvest model in it's current form actually increases income rate per base, but I am quite adamant that the ideal maximum income rate per base should be lower (hence Fewer Resources per Base (FRB) or, more accurately, Lesser Income per Base (LIB)). I'm pretty sure Blizzard now understands this (thankfully), but let try to explain again.
The 3 Spending Decisions: Production vs. Tech vs. Economy
You can choose to spend any mined set of resources (given that minerals=gas if you plan accordingly, which is roughly true) on any of three main categories:
Production - Units and the buildings that make them. And supply. Tech - Research, upgrades, and the buildings that do them and/or unlock better units. Economy - Workers and town halls. And supply.
Ideally you should be restricted to only doing so much of these 3 things in any given amount of time; basically you shouldn't be able to match the tech AND production speed of your opponent until you're fully saturated on maximum bases (which should be the real hallmark of a standard-ish game reaching "late-game", not necessarily one or both players reaching max tech).
In the early/mid game, choosing to go heavy on Production should be a maneuver to exploit any production/defense deficit of your opponent in the short-term, but should leave you vulnerable to a slower-working but superior Tech or an even slower-working superior Economy if the attack failed to do adequate damage. Unless it was just plain cheese, the Tech or Economic advantage the defender gets after a Production attack fails to even put the players on equal footing generally shouldn't be insurmountable but should be long-lasting.
However, the thing is that units, workers, research, buildings (etc.) only cost so much (and, secondarily, the supply cap is only so high). When you raise the resource income rate to a certain point, the choice to do Production and/or Tech or Tech and/or Economy (etc.) becomes less meaningful because suddenly you can do (at least?) 2 of the 3 comfortably and before long you can have adequate Economy to do both Production & Tech in the context of 200 max supply. The thing is: who cares about having better economy with 48(+) workers on 3(4) bases when I basically have enough income to max quickly enough on just 2(3) bases already?
Well that was definitely the best way I've ever put that. Here it is at the end of the "Getting Started" section in Breadth of Gameplay in SC2: + Show Spoiler +
On March 17 2012 02:33 Barrin wrote: To put it in a (perhaps overly) simplistic way, there is a certain equilibrium - a set of choices - on what you can do with a given set of worker mining time / resources. That equilibrium is as follows
Expand / Supply
Tech / Upgrade
Production / Army
This idea goes back to the days before SC1 was even released. In a general sense, you should (A) want to do all three of these things continuously but (B) cannot do all three of them optimally, simultaneously, and continuously. Basically the "3-base ceiling" that LaLuSh refers to is essentially saying that you simply do not need or want to keep expanding past *only* 3 mining bases. You can get all the tech/upgrade and production/army you need off of so little, which breaks this equilibrium down to it's core and almost makes it almost irrelevant as if it doesn't even apply.
Also, FRB means "Fewer Resources per Base" and Blizzard totally did that.. but a better term for what I really had in mind is "Lesser Income per Base". The simplest way I have yet to put it is: I think you can gain too many resources too quickly and spend them on increasing the size of your army too rapidly -- an army that for various reasons generally can't reliably cover enough area -- on too few bases. You have so much income that you can (1) tech while you (2) produce and you (3) hardly need to expand. One of the core tenets of BW strategy was more or less needing to choose which one to do: production cut into teching (and vice versa) and you basically always wanted to expand regardless. If BW had it right, then the maximum income rate per base should be about 4/5ths of what it is now.
Income & Production Rates in the context of Attack/Rush Distance(s)
This is a new idea I just thought of recently, and the part I forgot in PM
Basically, the faster you can gain resources and spend them on production & supply, the more units player A can make (so bigger army difference) in the time it takes for player B to bring his current forces across the map for an attack. This has two main effects:
(1) It is easier to defend. Players will be less likely to attack; there will be less aggression until the late-game when armies are max. (2) Smaller maps with smaller rush distances become more viable. Conversely, bigger maps with larger rush distance become less viable.
I'm pretty sure (1) is not what we are after, and I reserve judgement on (2) but that's probably not optimal either.
Again, this was a truly great article; you've managed to take something very complex and put it in simple terms (in contrast to the jumble of jargon I sometimes come up with on the spot and endless commas, semicolons, parentheses, and lists).
And the mechanics behind the Double Harvest model are damn near sublime with the curve and preservation of worker movement speed.. but I really can't get behind increasing the maximum income per base at all. I insist that it must be lowered, if anything (a slight initial boost is fine I guess, but that is not slight), for reasons stated above. I can get behind 4 per harvest (for 4+4=8 per trip) or maybe 4.5 per harvest (for 4.5+4.5=9 per trip). + Show Spoiler [10 per trip worse than current LotV?] +
Despite it's "expand or else" flaw, LotV's current system in a strange way actually does lower the "ideal" maximum mineral income rate, while not actually lowering the actual maximum mineral income rate. In other words, what you say here is correct:
On April 12 2015 06:10 ZeromuS wrote: ... The only change is that to have access to 24 mineral nodes a player needs at a minimum four bases instead of three after the seven minute mark in LotV while having between 49 and 57 workers ready to mine minerals. Having access to 24 mineral nodes is therefore disrupted earlier than in the current HotS model, but does not actually change the cap.
...
However, whether you plan on expanding early or not you want as many patches to last as long as possible (to maximize potential income for that base as long as possible), so when half of the patches have half minerals, there is incentive not to put as many workers on them. Indeed, half patches tend to be the "far" patches anyway, which are 3 tiles away from the town hall instead of just 2, and you want to put your workers on them last anyway. So even though they probably eventually should anyway, players are less encouraged to put a whole 2, let alone 3 workers on the half patches, especially if they are "far" patches. So while the income rate hasn't changed, the ideal has been lowered from 16 to 12-14 and the ideal maximum has been lowered from 24 to 20-22, which is pretty damn spot-on for how many mineral workers there should be per base in the context of a 200 supply cap.
Might've forgot something, but that's probably all I should fit in a single comment anyway. Not to take away from other major contributors (Lalush in particular), but I for one am glad that the work I've done has not been in vain and that awareness is spreading.
I was going to ask this same thing. I believe in the article you mentioned there is about a %15 increase in mining rate over HotS. If they returned 9 minerals instead of 10 that would decrease the mining rate to about %5 higher than HotS, which preserves the states of the game better, without losing the benefits of the double harvester model.
If they can't mine 4.5 minerals per trip maybe they can still mine 2 trips of 5 but have a 'max cargo' of 9, so 1 mineral gets lost every trip, which would effectively accomplish the same thing as lowering the mineral field value by %10 (a little more than your proposed 1400).
On April 13 2015 04:23 Gwavajuice wrote: Dear Zeromus, let's forget about all the graphs for a moment and try to see the bigger picture :
- player A and B are starting the game with the same stuff. they build their economy, expand and none of the early skirmishes gives any player an advantage.
- when they're both on 3 bases, players A decides to play defensive until he builds his death ball army.
- decision 1 : seeing this, player B decides he will expand all over the map be as greedy as he can to enter late game with the biggest bank possible. He also tries to trade armies when he can but the defensive play of player A doesn't allow much.
- decision 2 : when his main starts to dry out player A wants to take a 4th base.
The proposed changes to the econmy, will give a boost to player B when he takes decision one. That the option your seem to prefer, it's the incentive to expand more
Blizzard on the other hand tries to weaken player A when he takes decision 2 : he has a much smaller army at this point in LotV than in HotS. It's the punition for expanding less.
My problem here is that we had multiple of games when this scenario occured, and recently Yoda vs soO on KSS in SPL was an excellent example, but very few times the fact that player B had a crazy bank really solved the issue. I general these game ended one day or another when the map was actually mined out. taht Yoda vs soO game is the worst example of this, soO banking 14k mins 12 k gaz only to loose pitifully vs Yoda's perfect mech comp.
So how would the new economy concept you propose here would actually solve anything? is 2100 k mins per minute vs 2500 kmins per minute the real issue here?
Blizzard approach (which I don't like) may have its flaws but at least solves the matter albeit in a brutal way. Anyway, shouldn't the issue be solved above all with better units and maps?
Beside this, your spreadshit doesn't show what happens after 16 workers for double mining and double harvest. it annoys me a bit, cause the HotS system is all about having a loss of efficiency after 16 workers, we need to compare the 3 models for this.
Last, the income for double harvest and double mining for 8 workers on one base seems extremely high. we're talking about a 100 to 150 mins per minute difference here, wouldn't this impact the game too much?
Well you need to consider that the increased income starts early so its more than just a 400 mineral a minute advantage. Its a slowly snowballing advantage from the start of the game.With extra money the player with more bases can slow down the growth of the turtle player (killing workers, picking off bits of army).
The biggest problem in HotS is that the NET trades are always better for the turtle player because both players have the same income most of the time.
Lets say both players have a similar income of 2000 per minute minerals (and associated gas).
The player on 6 base has 2k income and the three base player also has 2k income in HotS.
When the 6 base player trades 1k of units per minute inefficiently into the 3 base player to try and chip their large mech or whatever army away, the mech player might lose 700 mineals.
This means the net gain for the 6 base player is 1k minerals, and the turtle player has 1.3k net income. So the trades are always 100% better for the turtle player in this scenario.
If the 6 base player instead made 2.5k (more money) the trades would be less advantageous for the turtle player. The Net incomes in the same scenario turn to 1.5k over 1.3k. This doesn't seem like a lot but when you consider how much longer the expanding player has been on the bases, and how many more gas the expanding player has access to, and how much more production/money the trades will favour the expander (they can climb the tech tree with more gas trading out their less efficient units).
Further the smaller bank (from chipping away) makes the turtle player need to trade more effectively with the actual fights mid map onwards. Consider also that in HotS you need to cut army to get more money. You can instead stay on similar worker counts in DH for a similar army supply. Or you can cut army to get an EVEN BIGGER income advantage (to grind out games vs turtlers more - especially important for Zergs vs Terran mech).
Add into this that by simply having more of the map owned and more money, if the expanding player can deny the very slow expansions from the turtle player (maps would need to support this but thats something we learn with time), then the turtle player has a LOT to chew through for basetrade scenarios. And it disincetivizes just amoving across the map (rebuild tech and reexpand elsewhere on the map etc with a bigger bank and mineral income).
It adds more pressure to the turtle player and allows for more effective trades even if those trades are cost inefficient. In HotS cost ineffective trades are brutal. The opponent has the same or similar income so trades will always always be in the advantage of the turtler, where the aggressor basically starves themselves out (SH ZvP) instead of starving the opponent out.
aren't you oversimplifying though? in Hots nobody has 48 workers on minerals over 6 bases. If anything the advantage of these new models would be to reduce the amount of workers and thus give a bigger army to the 6 bases player tha they currently have in HotS, but saying they have the same income is unrealistic.
In that yoda vs soO game, at 13 mins, yoda has his 4th command center completed (which is kind of fast - planetary will finish on the 4th at 15:30 or something) soO just finished his 5th but no worker there yet. The mineral income is 2500 to 2100-2300. we can assume that soO has like 63 workers on minerals. All game long soO will have this income advantage. Will he use it to trade? No, he'll use it to bank. because the real advantage he wants to get from his better economy is the capacity to remax faster than Yoda.
(Btw soO will have a huge vespene income advantage during the whole game, and we both know that vespene is what matter most for these late game units. Mineral qucikly become the secondary ressource - soO won't even mine some bases at all, only taking the vespene)
And there are the mules, Yoda logically makes tons of OCs, and he doesn't care about double harvesting or worker pairing, he drops shittons of mules. How would this balance with the new economy your propose?
Last, the income of 2x harvet and 2x mining is just too big. It will just give another advantage to the turtling player cause he'll turtle faster. 450 mins/min for 8 workers? the opening builds will be almost as fast as in LotV. are you sure you want this?
I'm not much of a tweeter, but I think we should all tweet @psione, or someone with a link to this thread, if there are enough people pushing for this change directly it could help.
On April 13 2015 04:23 Gwavajuice wrote: Dear Zeromus, let's forget about all the graphs for a moment and try to see the bigger picture :
- player A and B are starting the game with the same stuff. they build their economy, expand and none of the early skirmishes gives any player an advantage.
- when they're both on 3 bases, players A decides to play defensive until he builds his death ball army.
- decision 1 : seeing this, player B decides he will expand all over the map be as greedy as he can to enter late game with the biggest bank possible. He also tries to trade armies when he can but the defensive play of player A doesn't allow much.
- decision 2 : when his main starts to dry out player A wants to take a 4th base.
The proposed changes to the econmy, will give a boost to player B when he takes decision one. That the option your seem to prefer, it's the incentive to expand more
Blizzard on the other hand tries to weaken player A when he takes decision 2 : he has a much smaller army at this point in LotV than in HotS. It's the punition for expanding less.
My problem here is that we had multiple of games when this scenario occured, and recently Yoda vs soO on KSS in SPL was an excellent example, but very few times the fact that player B had a crazy bank really solved the issue. I general these game ended one day or another when the map was actually mined out. taht Yoda vs soO game is the worst example of this, soO banking 14k mins 12 k gaz only to loose pitifully vs Yoda's perfect mech comp.
So how would the new economy concept you propose here would actually solve anything? is 2100 k mins per minute vs 2500 kmins per minute the real issue here?
Blizzard approach (which I don't like) may have its flaws but at least solves the matter albeit in a brutal way. Anyway, shouldn't the issue be solved above all with better units and maps?
Beside this, your spreadshit doesn't show what happens after 16 workers for double mining and double harvest. it annoys me a bit, cause the HotS system is all about having a loss of efficiency after 16 workers, we need to compare the 3 models for this.
Last, the income for double harvest and double mining for 8 workers on one base seems extremely high. we're talking about a 100 to 150 mins per minute difference here, wouldn't this impact the game too much?
Well you need to consider that the increased income starts early so its more than just a 400 mineral a minute advantage. Its a slowly snowballing advantage from the start of the game.With extra money the player with more bases can slow down the growth of the turtle player (killing workers, picking off bits of army).
The biggest problem in HotS is that the NET trades are always better for the turtle player because both players have the same income most of the time.
Lets say both players have a similar income of 2000 per minute minerals (and associated gas).
The player on 6 base has 2k income and the three base player also has 2k income in HotS.
When the 6 base player trades 1k of units per minute inefficiently into the 3 base player to try and chip their large mech or whatever army away, the mech player might lose 700 mineals.
This means the net gain for the 6 base player is 1k minerals, and the turtle player has 1.3k net income. So the trades are always 100% better for the turtle player in this scenario.
If the 6 base player instead made 2.5k (more money) the trades would be less advantageous for the turtle player. The Net incomes in the same scenario turn to 1.5k over 1.3k. This doesn't seem like a lot but when you consider how much longer the expanding player has been on the bases, and how many more gas the expanding player has access to, and how much more production/money the trades will favour the expander (they can climb the tech tree with more gas trading out their less efficient units).
Further the smaller bank (from chipping away) makes the turtle player need to trade more effectively with the actual fights mid map onwards. Consider also that in HotS you need to cut army to get more money. You can instead stay on similar worker counts in DH for a similar army supply. Or you can cut army to get an EVEN BIGGER income advantage (to grind out games vs turtlers more - especially important for Zergs vs Terran mech).
Add into this that by simply having more of the map owned and more money, if the expanding player can deny the very slow expansions from the turtle player (maps would need to support this but thats something we learn with time), then the turtle player has a LOT to chew through for basetrade scenarios. And it disincetivizes just amoving across the map (rebuild tech and reexpand elsewhere on the map etc with a bigger bank and mineral income).
It adds more pressure to the turtle player and allows for more effective trades even if those trades are cost inefficient. In HotS cost ineffective trades are brutal. The opponent has the same or similar income so trades will always always be in the advantage of the turtler, where the aggressor basically starves themselves out (SH ZvP) instead of starving the opponent out.
aren't you oversimplifying though? in Hots nobody has 48 workers on minerals over 6 bases. If anything the advantage of these new models would be to reduce the amount of workers and thus give a bigger army to the 6 bases player tha they currently have in HotS, but saying they have the same income is unrealistic.
In that yoda vs soO game, at 13 mins, yoda has his 4th command center completed (which is kind of fast - planetary will finish on the 4th at 15:30 or something) soO just finished his 5th but no worker there yet. The mineral income is 2500 to 2100-2300. we can assume that soO has like 63 workers on minerals. All game long soO will have this income advantage. Will he use it to trade? No, he'll use it to bank. because the real advantage he wants to get from his better economy is the capacity to remax faster than Yoda.
(Btw soO will have a huge vespene income advantage during the whole game, and we both know that vespene is what matter most for these late game units. Mineral qucikly become the secondary ressource - soO won't even mine some bases at all, only taking the vespene)
And there are the mules, Yoda logically makes tons of OCs, and he doesn't care about double harvesting or worker pairing, he drops shittons of mules. How would this balance with the new economy your propose?
Last, the income of 2x harvet and 2x mining is just too big. It will just give another advantage to the turtling player cause he'll turtle faster. 450 mins/min for 8 workers? the opening builds will be almost as fast as in LotV. are you sure you want this?
Of course I over simplified it takes far too much space to explain things in extreme detail. Of course in all my examples in the article I simplify at 48 workers because its just easier to express since its so common to see turtle play focus on around 16-20 workers on each mineral line (about 75 workers from the turtle players).
Its not THAT big imo a difference for 2x harvest. Its still big but its minerals not gas and as you expand more you can make use of the extra gas. Its still an incentive to expand.
If you want to break down a game in HotS and apply the model you would need to look at all the incremental advantages of income at all points in the game. Whenever soO is up 10 workers due to droning you need to consider how much they mine and the small gains in income that compound.
My core argument is: remove worker pairing. If you don't want to rework the AI the Double Harvest model doesnt break the current curve AS much as other models. I tried mining 9 with a long cycle, its almost the same as DH but the issue is the worker pulling. So why not keep the same income rate without hurting the worker pairing?
The turtling player could turtle a bit faster i guess (only slightly so, you are still limited by upgrades, production facilities, gas income). There is a lot that happens when you increase mineral income.
You need to play it to feel it but it just feels better than HotS when you play it. Builds develop a touch quicker, its fun to split the workers and manage econ better as well.
I can't apply it to current hots games because a lot of the meta development and unit design comes from the economy in SC2, and you cant just say "but in this game this guy turtled how does this change that". Well maybe the issue is that your income isn't high enough to trade but high enough to bank.
What is the point in mass expanding when sitting at 200/200 when your income is not significantly improved? The risk of expanding (opening more space to control) is not worth the reward (almost nothing). Why would you trade if your trade will be inefficient and your net income/bank is lower than the other player regardless of the bases you have?
There are a lot of small things that just break the decision making. It might seem like a few hundred minerals isn't a lot but in game, it feels very different. We need to see games in the model to say it does or doesnt work.
To be honest, I am 100% okay with trying this being critical of it and deciding its shit. If it turns out after 2 weeks to just be strictly worse I accept this reality. If it sucks then I'll admit I wasn't right (not necessarily wrong, just not right as I think breaking the 2:1 pair in SOME way is the best way forward), and move on with my life.
I'm not so married to this that I'll give up on SC2 if it doesn't get implemented. I just think its worth an experiment.
If it turtles too fast or the pace of the game is too quick we can tone down the mineral income and try to sneak it that change in and slow the pace of the game on the battle field.
I just think its important to try it so we CAN make direct comparisons to HotS. Thats the important part. We can't compare if we don't try it. Theres only so much theory craft on the design can do.
But i think that the design principles (rewards) of DH are more appealing than the design principles (of punishing or putting a timer on players) of what we currently see in LotV (even if the design goals in the long run are the same).
On April 13 2015 04:23 Gwavajuice wrote: Dear Zeromus, let's forget about all the graphs for a moment and try to see the bigger picture :
- player A and B are starting the game with the same stuff. they build their economy, expand and none of the early skirmishes gives any player an advantage.
- when they're both on 3 bases, players A decides to play defensive until he builds his death ball army.
- decision 1 : seeing this, player B decides he will expand all over the map be as greedy as he can to enter late game with the biggest bank possible. He also tries to trade armies when he can but the defensive play of player A doesn't allow much.
- decision 2 : when his main starts to dry out player A wants to take a 4th base.
The proposed changes to the econmy, will give a boost to player B when he takes decision one. That the option your seem to prefer, it's the incentive to expand more
Blizzard on the other hand tries to weaken player A when he takes decision 2 : he has a much smaller army at this point in LotV than in HotS. It's the punition for expanding less.
My problem here is that we had multiple of games when this scenario occured, and recently Yoda vs soO on KSS in SPL was an excellent example, but very few times the fact that player B had a crazy bank really solved the issue. I general these game ended one day or another when the map was actually mined out. taht Yoda vs soO game is the worst example of this, soO banking 14k mins 12 k gaz only to loose pitifully vs Yoda's perfect mech comp.
So how would the new economy concept you propose here would actually solve anything? is 2100 k mins per minute vs 2500 kmins per minute the real issue here?
Blizzard approach (which I don't like) may have its flaws but at least solves the matter albeit in a brutal way. Anyway, shouldn't the issue be solved above all with better units and maps?
Beside this, your spreadshit doesn't show what happens after 16 workers for double mining and double harvest. it annoys me a bit, cause the HotS system is all about having a loss of efficiency after 16 workers, we need to compare the 3 models for this.
Last, the income for double harvest and double mining for 8 workers on one base seems extremely high. we're talking about a 100 to 150 mins per minute difference here, wouldn't this impact the game too much?
Well you need to consider that the increased income starts early so its more than just a 400 mineral a minute advantage. Its a slowly snowballing advantage from the start of the game.With extra money the player with more bases can slow down the growth of the turtle player (killing workers, picking off bits of army).
The biggest problem in HotS is that the NET trades are always better for the turtle player because both players have the same income most of the time.
Lets say both players have a similar income of 2000 per minute minerals (and associated gas).
The player on 6 base has 2k income and the three base player also has 2k income in HotS.
When the 6 base player trades 1k of units per minute inefficiently into the 3 base player to try and chip their large mech or whatever army away, the mech player might lose 700 mineals.
This means the net gain for the 6 base player is 1k minerals, and the turtle player has 1.3k net income. So the trades are always 100% better for the turtle player in this scenario.
If the 6 base player instead made 2.5k (more money) the trades would be less advantageous for the turtle player. The Net incomes in the same scenario turn to 1.5k over 1.3k. This doesn't seem like a lot but when you consider how much longer the expanding player has been on the bases, and how many more gas the expanding player has access to, and how much more production/money the trades will favour the expander (they can climb the tech tree with more gas trading out their less efficient units).
Further the smaller bank (from chipping away) makes the turtle player need to trade more effectively with the actual fights mid map onwards. Consider also that in HotS you need to cut army to get more money. You can instead stay on similar worker counts in DH for a similar army supply. Or you can cut army to get an EVEN BIGGER income advantage (to grind out games vs turtlers more - especially important for Zergs vs Terran mech).
Add into this that by simply having more of the map owned and more money, if the expanding player can deny the very slow expansions from the turtle player (maps would need to support this but thats something we learn with time), then the turtle player has a LOT to chew through for basetrade scenarios. And it disincetivizes just amoving across the map (rebuild tech and reexpand elsewhere on the map etc with a bigger bank and mineral income).
It adds more pressure to the turtle player and allows for more effective trades even if those trades are cost inefficient. In HotS cost ineffective trades are brutal. The opponent has the same or similar income so trades will always always be in the advantage of the turtler, where the aggressor basically starves themselves out (SH ZvP) instead of starving the opponent out.
aren't you oversimplifying though? in Hots nobody has 48 workers on minerals over 6 bases. If anything the advantage of these new models would be to reduce the amount of workers and thus give a bigger army to the 6 bases player tha they currently have in HotS, but saying they have the same income is unrealistic.
In that yoda vs soO game, at 13 mins, yoda has his 4th command center completed (which is kind of fast - planetary will finish on the 4th at 15:30 or something) soO just finished his 5th but no worker there yet. The mineral income is 2500 to 2100-2300. we can assume that soO has like 63 workers on minerals. All game long soO will have this income advantage. Will he use it to trade? No, he'll use it to bank. because the real advantage he wants to get from his better economy is the capacity to remax faster than Yoda.
(Btw soO will have a huge vespene income advantage during the whole game, and we both know that vespene is what matter most for these late game units. Mineral qucikly become the secondary ressource - soO won't even mine some bases at all, only taking the vespene)
And there are the mules, Yoda logically makes tons of OCs, and he doesn't care about double harvesting or worker pairing, he drops shittons of mules. How would this balance with the new economy your propose?
Last, the income of 2x harvet and 2x mining is just too big. It will just give another advantage to the turtling player cause he'll turtle faster. 450 mins/min for 8 workers? the opening builds will be almost as fast as in LotV. are you sure you want this?
Except that while 8 workers is good on one base, if you don't have another base to send 8 to, 16 is still significantly better than staying at 8. One base income with 16 workers will vastly outperform, in terms of raw income, one base with 8 workers. It's just that 8 workers on 2 bases is quite a bit better than 16 on just one. This is important, because it means the turtling player trying to get a bigger army will have one big army for one chance, but his opponent can feasibly just out expand and send swarms of units and whittle the big army down, because the turtling player can't replace it.
This doesn't happen in HOTS because the turtling player's income is the same as the expanding player.
With this system, turtling for short periods to wait for key tech or another few rounds of units is viable and strategic, but turtling for extended periods of time will get you killed. The important thing is that you don't need to expand non-stop and immediately like you do in LOTV to keep up.
On April 12 2015 16:04 Lunker wrote: Nice post. I agree with much of what's been said in the OP and elsewhere about the three base cap, and hope Blizz looks at the issue closer.
I agree with the complaints about that one graph. A bar chart with 2 bars where you can't tell the size of the bars relative to either 0 or a third bar doesn't help inform people any more than just giving the numbers. One way log scales can be useful is that changing the numbers represented by two bars by the same percentage changes the length of the two bars by the same amount.
It doesn't matter as much, but ideally the line graphs should be bar or dot graphs since you can only have a whole number of workers. It would be easier to read. Colorblind people might have problems with some of them too.
There doesn't seem like there'd be much income advantage in taking more than 6 bases with only 48 workers mining minerals, and I'd like to be able to be on 8 mining bases and have a big army. Would this proposal work well with a raising of the supply cap to 250 or 300?
Unfortunately, that's outside the realm of an economic system, as the base count you can secure is limited by maps and map design, which is rather prohibitive in that regard. Having 6 bases quickly enough that none of them are mined out by the time you've taken the 6th is already rather unlikely, 8 is pretty impossible to design a map for as is, unless you're taking your opponent's bases or something ridiculous (in which case, win the game already).
Raising the supply cap is pretty much out of the question: it's set at 200 deliberately by Blizzard because they want the game to run on lower end machines which wouldn't be able to handle more units. I would expect that to remain non-negotiable.
On April 12 2015 17:44 ShiQuRas1 wrote: Hi, i have read thorugh the whole article (but not thrpugh the comments) and i think the study is really interesting and your suggested chagnes are really good. When i heard about the LotV mineral changes and the 12 worker start my biggest concern as well was to how it would super early game strategies away from the game... i know we all hate cheese :-P but it's a part of the game that especially in tournaments is super fun and exciting to watch.
I was just wondering if you have any thoughts on a 8 worker start with the Double Harvest model. Have you done any experiments on that? You would have a 1:1 ratio right form the beginning and take away like 20-30 sec of the build time you would need for the initial 2 workers. I wonder if this is somewhat of a compromise as well as your 1400 mineral-patch idea in the spirit of Blizzards' new policy to speed the game up a bit. Or do you think the build time of the first 2 workers is crucial to completely shutting down 6 (now 8) pool strats or proxies like the LotV-12-worker start does?
Greets ShiQuRas
This is something I've done a fair amount of thinking on. Firstly, we'll have another article coming regarding the 12 worker start, so this will wait for that. However, if blizzard very much wants to start with more workers than the previous 6 to accelerate the start, I would absolutely advocate for 8 as the best change to make. An 8 worker start, I think, is the best decision. 12 is too many, and we'll go over why. Look for that article!
I guess Blizzard should remove the 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 maps, as well as any custom maps with more than 2 players. Gosh, all those computers unable to run a 5 year old game engine.
On April 12 2015 16:04 Lunker wrote: Nice post. I agree with much of what's been said in the OP and elsewhere about the three base cap, and hope Blizz looks at the issue closer.
I agree with the complaints about that one graph. A bar chart with 2 bars where you can't tell the size of the bars relative to either 0 or a third bar doesn't help inform people any more than just giving the numbers. One way log scales can be useful is that changing the numbers represented by two bars by the same percentage changes the length of the two bars by the same amount.
It doesn't matter as much, but ideally the line graphs should be bar or dot graphs since you can only have a whole number of workers. It would be easier to read. Colorblind people might have problems with some of them too.
There doesn't seem like there'd be much income advantage in taking more than 6 bases with only 48 workers mining minerals, and I'd like to be able to be on 8 mining bases and have a big army. Would this proposal work well with a raising of the supply cap to 250 or 300?
Unfortunately, that's outside the realm of an economic system, as the base count you can secure is limited by maps and map design, which is rather prohibitive in that regard. Having 6 bases quickly enough that none of them are mined out by the time you've taken the 6th is already rather unlikely, 8 is pretty impossible to design a map for as is, unless you're taking your opponent's bases or something ridiculous (in which case, win the game already).
Raising the supply cap is pretty much out of the question: it's set at 200 deliberately by Blizzard because they want the game to run on lower end machines which wouldn't be able to handle more units. I would expect that to remain non-negotiable.
On April 12 2015 17:44 ShiQuRas1 wrote: Hi, i have read thorugh the whole article (but not thrpugh the comments) and i think the study is really interesting and your suggested chagnes are really good. When i heard about the LotV mineral changes and the 12 worker start my biggest concern as well was to how it would super early game strategies away from the game... i know we all hate cheese :-P but it's a part of the game that especially in tournaments is super fun and exciting to watch.
I was just wondering if you have any thoughts on a 8 worker start with the Double Harvest model. Have you done any experiments on that? You would have a 1:1 ratio right form the beginning and take away like 20-30 sec of the build time you would need for the initial 2 workers. I wonder if this is somewhat of a compromise as well as your 1400 mineral-patch idea in the spirit of Blizzards' new policy to speed the game up a bit. Or do you think the build time of the first 2 workers is crucial to completely shutting down 6 (now 8) pool strats or proxies like the LotV-12-worker start does?
Greets ShiQuRas
This is something I've done a fair amount of thinking on. Firstly, we'll have another article coming regarding the 12 worker start, so this will wait for that. However, if blizzard very much wants to start with more workers than the previous 6 to accelerate the start, I would absolutely advocate for 8 as the best change to make. An 8 worker start, I think, is the best decision. 12 is too many, and we'll go over why. Look for that article!
I guess Blizzard should remove the 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 maps, as well as any custom maps with more than 2 players. Gosh, all those computers unable to run a 5 year old game engine.
I think this isn't very productive discussion.
Computers could handle it but if you make even worker counts make more money for the expander then you dont need a bigger supply for a bigger army to compensate.
All you will do with 250 supply is push the max army size higher. The player turtling could still have a bigger army (if you cut at 75 workers) compared to the player who is expanding (and has 90 workers).
The same problem exists but it kind of shifts it to happen later on the game clock. We want making more workers than your opponent to be a BIGGER difference.
Choice: keep same workers expand a lot more and have X more money to trade my same army supply. Other choice: make more workers expand more and XX more money to trade with less army supply (or put some supply into harass workers etc).
I just think it could open more choice, rather than take it away, and you dont need 250 supply to do that. I mean you could do it, but if you dont apply the worker pairing solution alongside it, the difference is minimal.
The entire game is also balanced around 200 supply. Maybe high supply units (collosi, thors) would be broken if you could get that many. Maybe low supply units would be broken (160 marines, 300 banelings?). Adjusting the supply cap changes all the unit interactions in the game, while Double Harvesting is an economy change only (minus slight ratio changes).
On April 13 2015 00:48 Teoita wrote: I think it kind of does that - the first few workers are more efficient because they have access to the gold nodes. In that model, you have higher income on 4bases because you have access to more gold nodes. Am i missing anything?
I suppose your right to some extent. The issues are similar to the LotV model in that the gold nodes are going to mine out quicker than the blue nodes (at the proposed 7/4 model it takes about 30% longer to mine out the blue ones). You could change the values on the golds to correct this, but that is kinda weird (having two kinds of gold minerals). The mmpm graph also looks unnatural. I'm not convinced that its necessarily better than DH as a result. DH feels like a very organic solution (so does FRB for that matter) whereas gold nodes and mixed minerals don;t.
You know, I agree with you about what feels more "organic." I also think Blizzard might have a different opinion. It could be more productive for us to push for something that we think Blizzard will more likely accept, to give us the best chance of seeing improvements to the game we love.
Actually, the premise of the argument is to abolish the 2:1 worker:node ratio. DH is the best solution that we came up with with the given limitations. The worker AI doesn't change so no unit is being made dumber, so let's stop using that terminology. What you mean is worker bouncing on the mineral lines -- which actually already happens once you get to 17 or more workers. So we're not introducing anything new through breaking the 2:1 ratio. But lets say Blizzard wanted to experiment with breaking 2:1 but didn't want to have massive bouncing at 9+ workers, then beta is the perfect time for them to change the worker AI to cleverly select the mineral that will be available first beyond what already happens. Even in that instance, having a 1:1 optimal ratio as opposed to 2:1 would achieve the benefits outlined in the post.
I want to complement ZeromuS and the TeamLiquid staff on putting out such a well researched and written article. The amount of work put into making this article really shows. The SC2 community needs to bring attention to discussions like this to outshine the often lack of quality discussion on the Blizzard forums. Good work bringing the issues with LotV to light.
Given that the DH economy seeks to fix issues with the HotS economy (and SC2 in general) and extension mods for DH economy exist, clearly the next step is to more extensively test DH economy with actual games. HotS has thousands of pro games with VODs available. A subset clearly shows the 3 base turtle problem. Example games should be compiled, analyzed, and emulated by master level players in both the HotS and DH economy models. Since both players are trying to test, the engagements and trades made can be controlled to emulate the original game. The goal would be to give in-game examples of the concepts described in the OP.
Compiling a list of pro game VODs that show the economic problems in HotS would also be useful to illustrate these economic concepts for the less experienced players. The meta is quite stable in most of the cross race matchups. A list of say TvZ bio, TvZ mech, ZvP swarm host, ZvP ling muta, TvP bio, and TvT bio vs mech should contain the desired turtle vs map control style games. Obviously, pro level games contain tons of depth and are drastically affected by maps and unit balance in addition to economic considerations. Still, there should be enough games to illustrate the economic problems the OP discussed.
To nominate some pro games: 1. SoO vs Zest 2014 GSL Season 3 ZvP (Game 1 on Nimbus) Defensive ability of the map lets Zest defend on 3-4 bases until he reaches the perfect composition. SoO goes full economy on 4 base, but is not able to gain enough of an economic advantage to overcome the efficiency of Zest's composition. 2. Life vs Hack 2015 proleague ZvT (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghrdz0tNOso) Defensive mech vs ling ultra infestor on overgrowth. Life repeatedly trades armies with the mech army while maintaining a base advantage and high worker count (>80 workers). Life wins this game, so maybe other ZvT mech games would be more appropriate. 3. Non-swarmhost ZvP games from proleague? 4. SoO vs Taeja 2014 WCS Global Finals on Nimbus Late game bio vs ling bane muta into ultra. I'm not sure if the non-mech ZvT matchup really shows problems in the HotS economy given the importance of creep, unit interactions, and mules.
For these games, the worker counts and base counts can be emulated in-game with the DH economy model. Then the income can be plotted vs time and total minerals/gas mined vs time can be plotted to compare to current HotS economy. I welcome others to post pro games they think appropriately show the economic problems as described in the OP.
Add into this that by simply having more of the map owned and more money, if the expanding player can deny the very slow expansions from the turtle player (maps would need to support this but thats something we learn with time), then the turtle player has a LOT to chew through for basetrade scenarios. And it disincetivizes just amoving across the map (rebuild tech and reexpand elsewhere on the map etc with a bigger bank and mineral income).
It adds more pressure to the turtle player and allows for more effective trades even if those trades are cost inefficient. In HotS cost ineffective trades are brutal. The opponent has the same or similar income so trades will always always be in the advantage of the turtler, where the aggressor basically starves themselves out (SH ZvP) instead of starving the opponent out.
There is no doubt that BW'ish economy late game has an easier time encouraging army trades. However, I think people vastly overrate the importance relative to unit-design and balance. Sometimes we just have to look at actual games to verify that income assymetry is not a guarantee of armytrades.
Firecake clearly has a significant better economy and is still unable of trading. Now imagine BW lategame where we gave terrans Vikings and Ravens and removed Dark Swarm for zerg. I am pretty sure you would see just as bad late game turtling there.
Thus, the whole economy discussion imo ignores actual gameplay way too much, and it wouldn't even surprise me - late game - that the mobile race does average a signficiant better income rate as the immobile rate is unable to defend 3 active bases at once. Especially with the LOTV economy.
This is why we need to focus on the midgame. The midgame is where the real difference between BW, LOTV and Sc2 economy lies. Late game dynamics are probably 80% related to unit design/balance and only 20% to income assymetry (yeh I took those numbers out of my ass, but when mech still can turtle incredibly well on half the bases in Sc2, it's clear that bad unit design is really impactful).
Add into this that by simply having more of the map owned and more money, if the expanding player can deny the very slow expansions from the turtle player (maps would need to support this but thats something we learn with time), then the turtle player has a LOT to chew through for basetrade scenarios. And it disincetivizes just amoving across the map (rebuild tech and reexpand elsewhere on the map etc with a bigger bank and mineral income).
It adds more pressure to the turtle player and allows for more effective trades even if those trades are cost inefficient. In HotS cost ineffective trades are brutal. The opponent has the same or similar income so trades will always always be in the advantage of the turtler, where the aggressor basically starves themselves out (SH ZvP) instead of starving the opponent out.
There is no doubt that BW'ish economy late game has an easier time encouraging army trades. However, I think people vastly overrate the importance relative to unit-design and balance. Sometimes we just have to look at actual games to verify that income assymetry is not a guarantee of armytrades.
Firecake clearly has a significant better economy and is still unable of trading. Now imagine BW lategame where terrans had Vikings and Ravens and zergs no Dark Swarm. I am pretty sure you would see just as bad late game turtling there. Thus, the whole economy discussion imo ignores actual gameplay way too much, and it wouldn't even surprise me - late game - that the mobile race does average a signficiant better income rate as the immobile rate might just be able to hold on to 2.5 base on average.
This is a problem with HotS.
The Zerg player starved themselves out because they dont ACTUALLY have a better income rate. They just have more bases.
At this point Terran traded away scvs for more army and used mules to fuel the mineral bank as well (which is inconsequential to mech since its so Gas heavy at that late stage anyway).
Firecake has barely any actual mining bases more than his opponent. I specifically say in my post you quoted that while the trades will remain inefficient if the attacking player can build bank while trading (due to having more income than the opponent) it could (read: maybe) help in keeping players from starving themselves out.
Though to be fair from a balance and design perspective, right not Z might not have good enough tools to handle the mech army. On top of this firecake lost a lot of drones in both games to harass, AND from what I remember it was mostly roach hydra that he made in the series. Also, there is a return to broodlords to be explored (happy had very little anti air, and the air ups were almost non existent for Firecake). You point to one game, a couple days post patch, where a guy who used swarmhosts pre redesign almost exclusively in long macro games ZvT lost a match now that his most practiced style got nerfed.
I don't think its fair to write off a new economic model using images of one we know for a fact has flaws in its current implementation
Also my article doesn't actually discuss unit design at all. I say straight out things may need to be rebalanced, redesigned, but that a new economic model needs to happen first before we even think about unit designs since the economy is CORE.
The Zerg player starved themselves out because they dont ACTUALLY have a better income rate. They just have more bases.
Look at the unit lost tab. 27K behind. Happy currently has 12K more ressources and I doubt his armyvalue/infastructure has a value of over 15K more. As a general observation of mine, terrans typically has had a significant lower income rate in many of the most lame mech games in HOTS. The point being that even if zerg has 10-25% income advantage, he still can't trade if he is half as cost efficient.
So I see two problems with the current discussion:
(1) Overly focussing on income assymetry only. Instead income assymetry must always be analyzed together with cost efficiency.
(2) A naked assumption that the immobile race is always capable of being on 3 active bases at every point in the game.
The latter assumption could easily be untrue as its harder to take and hold bases if your immobile.
On the other hand, some of the more interesting mech games have occured when the mech player has attempted to acquire bases at a relatively fast pace. This has resulted in him having a closer income rate to that of his mobile opponent, however, he would be a ton more vulnerable to attacks.
Thus, I actually think what we should mainly look is how thinly spread the immobile player is in the late game. If your much further spread out, it will be easier to army trade for the mobile player, and thus the importance of income assymetry late game is reduced. Combine that w/ redesigns to problematic units such as PDD, SHs and Vikings (which function as a prrevent anything from happening"-unit), we should see more action in the late game.
I don't think its fair to write off a new economic model using images of one we know for a fact has flaws in its current implementation
I didn't write off the model. In fact if you look at my previous responses I think its the best. However, I think the current discussion is very misguided to make this all about late game income assymetry. I don't belive this picture is just an outlier-example, rather this is how I remember the worst turtle mech games in HOTS (mech terran takes bases relatively slow and thus averages closer to 2.5 base income).
But on the other hand I see two strong advantages relative to the LOTV economy:
(1) Much lower snowball effect/comeback potential (2) A proper way of making immobile styles more interesting in the midgame (this isn't possible in the LOTV economy).
Great article and i hope for even greater discussion to find a good solution for lotv. Im to tired right now to give my own thoughts, but i will try to do give some usefull information to this debate.
I think there may be a slightly simpler solution than the proposed double harvest method, or at least there's another variable to consider. I apologize if this has been suggested somewhere within the thread.
1. Consider adding four(ish) mineral patches to each base. Total mineral count per base stays the same. 2. Each harvester now mines 7-8 minerals each trip at the same mining rate. i.e. each harvester trip takes about 40% longer. Each second worker on a mineral patch now has to wait in line for the time it takes to mine that extra 2-3 minerals.
This seems to have the best of both worlds, and income rates can be adjusted by adding/subtracting a mineral patch, and adjusting the minerals per trip between 7 and 8. (Maybe even give the starting bases an extra patch or two over every other expansion, allowing it to stay efficient for longer) The most efficient base would now have 12ish harvesters, not eight. There is now a large efficiency incentive to expand over having double workers. There is less worry about zerg gaining too many bases than a pure single mining solution. 12 mineral drones per base puts a larger dent in supply than 8 would of course. . Overall I think this could be adjusted somewhat equivalently to the current HoTS economy while still incentivizing expansions. The amount of mineral patches, minerals carried back and mining time can all be tinkered with simultaneously to achieve the desired results. Loss of workers to early harass or mineral line raids isn't as game ending as it would be with 1 worker per patch carrying 10 minerals etc
However... Uneven minerals, yuk! And it's really not too different than this wonderful article's proposal.
Also I might be completely off base and tested nothing. Thanks so much for creating this discussion and I hope it gains traction.
Add into this that by simply having more of the map owned and more money, if the expanding player can deny the very slow expansions from the turtle player (maps would need to support this but thats something we learn with time), then the turtle player has a LOT to chew through for basetrade scenarios. And it disincetivizes just amoving across the map (rebuild tech and reexpand elsewhere on the map etc with a bigger bank and mineral income).
It adds more pressure to the turtle player and allows for more effective trades even if those trades are cost inefficient. In HotS cost ineffective trades are brutal. The opponent has the same or similar income so trades will always always be in the advantage of the turtler, where the aggressor basically starves themselves out (SH ZvP) instead of starving the opponent out.
There is no doubt that BW'ish economy late game has an easier time encouraging army trades. However, I think people vastly overrate the importance relative to unit-design and balance. Sometimes we just have to look at actual games to verify that income assymetry is not a guarantee of armytrades.
Firecake clearly has a significant better economy and is still unable of trading. Now imagine BW lategame where we gave terrans Vikings and Ravens and removed Dark Swarm for zerg. I am pretty sure you would see just as bad late game turtling there.
That is a very quick assumption on your side. If we just add up what we have as stats here, we have Firecake resources lost + bank = 50 000k Happy resources lost + bank = 35 000k Now the overall setup of Terran is usually a bit more expensive than zergs. That's really hard to evaluate of course without the replay, so I'm just going to leave that open. The worker count is 71 vs 41 in favor of firecake, so 3550 vs 2050 more resources. But then we go into what we see is left as units. Happy has some of the most expensive units per supply on the field. The picture alone shows an army value of 13350 for Happy with 130supply on the screen. Assuming the missing 28 army supply of Happy on average also having this ~100minerals per supply cost, that's another 2800resources, making for a total of 53200resources so far for Happy, vs 53550 resources for Firecake. Now, what I haven't factored in is Firecake's army of 101 army supply. Given the game situation, from the screenshot alone I would assume (since he is broke) he just made whatever he could, which is usually rather cheap units. In general, his army should be cheaper per supply than Happy's. But like, even if we assume 100resources per supply in that situation, that makes for an overall of 63650resources. If we assume like 20-30k more spendings on the intact infrustructure, economy and upgrades for both players, we don't have 60/50 but like 80/70 or 90/80, so it's even less than 15% more money mined from Firecake.
Doublechecking the resource situation on the minimap also showcases something similar: Happy seems to be more or less mined out at 4bases and be mining at a 5th base. Firecake seem to be more or less mined out at 4bases and be mining at a 5th and 6th base, with very few drones bottom right on a 7th base. With a base holding 17000resources, that should make for a rough amount of 68 resources from the mined out for bases + whatever they have gathered at the other bases. This fits very well with Happy having roughly 70-80k mined resources and Firecake 80-90k.
I do not think that 15% more mining over 35minutes of mapcontrol vs passive style is that significant to be honest.
It's not like Firecake lost 30 drones to hellion/banshee or anything...seriously that series really really really isn't indicative of balance or game design, at all, in any way
I do not think that 15% more mining over 35minutes of mapcontrol vs passive style is that significant to be honest.
I don't think I ever implied it was noticeable higher. But I implied that its not true that immobile and mobile always mine the same and I think people are wrong if they assume that in an average BW come the income assymetry is +50%. Rather, zerg would often have fewer workers on more bases.
Honestly wouldn't surprise me if zerg vs mech or zerg vs toss or toss vs terran mech income assymetry (in BW) ranged between 10-30%.
Point being here is that income assymetry is irrelevant in itself if its still signficiantly below cost efficiency. Just go and watch your average Avilo game. He stays on 3 bases for 30 minutes. Has half the income but 3 times the cost efficiency ---> incredibly lame.
Now lets think about what happens with LOTV economy --> More bases for mech and more reasons to expect immobile race not averaging 3 bases --> More armytrading lategame. So I don't see why the late game armytrading is the big argument for the BW economy.
It's not like Firecake lost 30 drones to hellion/banshee or anything...seriously that series really really really isn't indicative of balance or game design, at all, in any way
This misses the point. Its not about a specific game. Rather this was an example from today of a typical trend I observed over a longer time period: The slower the mech player take bases --> The higher the income assymetry is + the lamer gameplay is. Do you disagree with my observations here?
When TvZ mech was most enjoyable was around late 2013 when korean terrans would go more viking heavy and take bases faster. As the mech meta stabilized around heavy Raven play, it became signifciantly more turtlish as it increased the cost efficiency of the mech player while also reducing mobility --> Resulting in slower base taking + much harder for the zerg to armytrade.
Hence one should consider if proper redesigns of units + more bases isn't enough to get the desired incentives in the late game.
Which is why I cannot understand why everyone ignores the mid-game as no other economy can replicate what BW does here. The ability to stay on fewer bases against a mobile opponent being on many more faces creates unique advantages.
I do not think that 15% more mining over 35minutes of mapcontrol vs passive style is that significant to be honest.
I don't think I ever implied it was noticeable higher. But I implied that its not true that immobile and mobile always mine the same and I think people are wrong if they assume that in an average BW come the income assymetry is close to 50%. Rather, zerg would often have fewer workers on more bases.
Honestly wouldn't surprise me if zerg vs mech or zerg vs toss or toss vs terran mech income assymetry (in BW) ranged between 10-30%.
But did it feature the same passiveness? There is a huge strategical dynamic behind you being able to theoretically getting a 50% income advantage if your opponent is just passive. The immobile player is forced to attack before getting into his compositional comfort zone just through the possibility. The dynamics balance on a smaller income advantage, but a more aggressive immobile player.
Meanwhile in SC2, the income advantage of at most 20% is a given. There is no strategical dynamic behind it that would give the players reasons to attack, or not to attack.
Point being here is that income assymetry is irrelevant in itself if its still signficiantly below cost efficiency. Just go and watch your average Avilo game. He stays on 3 bases for 30 minutes. Has half the income but 3 times the cost efficiency ---> incredibly lame.
Now lets think about what happens with LOTV economy --> More bases for mech and more reasons to expect immobile race not averaging 3 bases --> More armytrading lategame. So I don't see why the late game armytrading is the big argument for the BW economy.
I don't see how a real defensive, immobile style would even be playable in LotV economy. You just run out of money and that's it. The blizzard solution is that former immobile styles become mobile with cyclones and siege pick ups and BC teleports. They just kill the style with their solution.
Obviously the problem is not just economy. There needs to be some form of balance. Before the Swarm Host patch that balance was relatively simple: Zerg has a somewhat equally costefficient army against both Protoss and Mech. There is no other good solution for that problem if we don't give players the possibility to overcome inefficiency with income advantages.
But did it feature the same passiveness? There is a huge strategical dynamic behind you being able to theoretically getting a 50% income advantage if your opponent is just passive.
No, and that's my point here. The main reason it didn't was only partially due to income assymetry and more related to unit design, hence why I previously wondered how turtly TvZ mech game would have been if teran replaced Goliaths with Vikings and Ravens while removing Dark Swarm from zerg. BW simply had a lot more anti-turtling counters while Sc2 interactions are more about preventing anything from occuring in the first place.
I think we can look at the incentive for army trading as a simple formula: X/Y. Armytrading occurs if the ratio is above 1. X = Income assymetry Y = Cost efficiency assymetry.
E.g. let's say that in current Sc2 X is 1.15 and Y is 1.5 --> the ratio is calculated as 1.15/1.5 --> below 1 --> no armytrading is rewarded. If those numbers are correct, isn't it a bit missing point if all the analysis focus on ways to increase the X value to 1.25 while ignoring the Y value? Remember that the Y value is reduced when your forced to spread your self thinner as it makes it easier for the enemy to find the weak links.
And on top of that, remember that X most likely will be increased going from HOTS to LOTV economy as the immobile race cannt always be on 3 active bases.
I don't see how a real defensive, immobile style would even be playable in LotV economy
Here is a suggestion:
- 2 supply Siege Tanks - Upgrade that requires Fusion Core = +15 damage to Siege Tanks (PDD needs to go completely 20 sec still dumb)
Effect: Tanks get cost efficiently enough (raises Y value from what probably in a post Raven world is close to 1.15 to 1.3 in the late game. if X is around 1.3 as well you should get some really solid gameplay.) The point being here isn't about the exact numbers, but rather how you should balance/design units around the income assymetry in the economy. An economy can not be analyzed as good or bad in a vacuum. Rather you have to look at the opportunites to fix the flaws through changes to units.
On April 13 2015 08:15 Hider wrote: This misses the point. Its not about a specific game. Rather this was an example from today of a typical trend I observed over a longer time period:
But did it feature the same passiveness? There is a huge strategical dynamic behind you being able to theoretically getting a 50% income advantage if your opponent is just passive.
No, and that's my point here. The main reason it didn't was only partially due to income assymetry and more related to unit design, hence why I previously wondered how turtly TvZ mech game would have been if teran replaced Goliaths with Vikings and Ravens while removing Dark Swarm from zerg. BW simply had a lot more anti-turtling counters while Sc2 interactions are more about preventing anything from occuring in the first place.
I'm not really sure you are right with that. I've not only once read a comment how Terran would just win if they could split the map or get a critical mass of Vessels. But it's quite hard for me to argue that BW stuff, so I would like to just leave it to more knowledgeable people how the dynamics were exactly.
Regardless of that, I like the strategical implications of a scaling economy. I can't see the game being played with the same standardization if this would go through. The advantages of having a 5th or 6th base if you have the mapcontrol would be way more subtle and in itself lead to more diverse strategies just by players taking that extra risk or not believing it doesn't pay off.
Sorry, for the late edit/reply. Didn't realize you had also edited
On April 13 2015 08:41 Hider wrote: I think we can look at the incentive for army trading as a simple formula: X/Y. Armytrading occurs if the ratio is above 1. X = Income assymetry Y = Cost efficiency assymetry.
E.g. let's say that in current Sc2 X is 1.15 and Y is 1.5 --> the ratio is calculated as 1.15/1.5 --> below 1 --> no armytrading is rewarded. If those numbers are correct, isn't it a bit missing point if all the analysis focus on ways to increase the X value to 1.25 while ignoring the Y value? Remember that the Y value is reduced when your forced to spread your self thinner as it makes it easier for the enemy to find the weak links.
And on top of that, remember that X most likely will be increased going from HOTS to LOTV economy as the immobile race cannt always be on 3 active bases.
The whole point with a defensive style is that you are hard to break if you don't want to be broken. If such styles simply result in the opponent only having more stuff and you needing less stuff, I don't see the value of having that style to begin with. - that's not quite true, but it's just "I'm using other units" then. The point is not to just have a given amount of income advantage vs a given amount of costefficiency. The point is that players should be able to manipulate how X and Y look. It's about having a strategic choice, where I either go for 50% more income and turn myself into the defensive player, or try to bluff you and make you run into an open field battle that you shouldn't be taking at that time.
But the current and the LotV economy inevitably give us X implicitly, so Y also has to have a certain value to put the ratio to 1 (=balance).
- 2 supply Siege Tanks - Upgrade that requires Fusion Core = +15 damage to Siege Tanks (PDD needs to go completely 20 sec still dumb)
Effect: Tanks get cost efficiently enough (raises Y value from what probably in a post Raven world is close to 1.15 to 1.3 in the late game. if X is around 1.3 as well you should get some really solid gameplay.) The point being here isn't about the exact numbers, but rather how you should balance/design units around the income assymetry in the economy. An economy can not be analyzed as good or bad in a vacuum. Rather you have to look at the opportunites to fix the flaws through changes to units.
The main problem of Mech at the moment isn't even costefficiency. Mech builds a more expensive army to begin with, than zerg does. The problem is that zerg theoretically can't even match the cost of a fully developed mech army, which is why zerg needs to trade for free against it to just prevent that scenario to begin with. Costefficiency becomes moot when supply limits and unit costs simply dictate that one race has better tools than the other in a "perfect" scenario. Putting the tank to two supply AND buffing it so that you need even less of them to do whatever the tanks role is in the army just makes this even worse and increases the incentitive for a Terran not to attack, because his 200supply army will be even stronger.
I've not only once read a comment how Terran would just win if they could split the map or get a critical mass of Vessels.
I think that's more of a theoretical scenario than something that is realistic at pro level (too gas intensive I assume). Most TvZ mech games - in the late game - are very focussed on overlord drops with Ultralisks, Lings and Defilers with the terran mech player being spread all over the map.
Regardless of that, I like the strategical implications of a scaling economy. I can't see the game being played with the same standardization if this would go through. The advantages of having a 5th or 6th base if you have the mapcontrol would be way more subtle and in itself lead to more diverse strategies just by players taking that extra risk or not believing it doesn't pay off.
I don't disagree here, though my biggest issue is mainly the lack of comeback-potential. I really dislike how LOTV games are right now. I rather prefer less action in the late game with a higher likelyhood of a great lategame.
I've not only once read a comment how Terran would just win if they could split the map or get a critical mass of Vessels.
I think that's more of a theoretical scenario than something that is realistic at pro level (too gas intensive I assume). Most TvZ mech games - in the late game - are very focussed on overlord drops with Ultralisks, Lings and Defilers with the terran mech player being spread all over the map.
Regardless of that, I like the strategical implications of a scaling economy. I can't see the game being played with the same standardization if this would go through. The advantages of having a 5th or 6th base if you have the mapcontrol would be way more subtle and in itself lead to more diverse strategies just by players taking that extra risk or not believing it doesn't pay off.
I don't disagree here, though my biggest issue is mainly the lack of comeback-potential. I really dislike how LOTV games are right now. I rather prefer less action in the late game with a higher likelyhood of a great lategame.
But when it comes to unit design and balance that is completely outside the scope of this article.
The difference the DH model makes is also much more strongly felt in the mid game than late game since the natural and third bases make the biggest income difference to the flow of the mid game (compared to hots) we cant really begin to wonder what the game will look like far beyond that point.
What I can say is that the player with more expansions has a lot more income on even worker counts, and that even in a turtle situation the expanding player due simply to a higher income per minute than in HotS, that isn't capped in nearly the same way as HotS, will probably not starve himself out on attacks vs a turtle player.
This is because from my perspective, and what I've seen in HotS the aggressor rarely trades efficiently with the defender and if the income is capped, net losses will always favour the player who loses less assuming both income rates are the same.
Its a very simple fact that I think is more often than not borne out in games we see in HotS.
I posit that by unlocking the cap (here is where theory comes in) the net losses for the defender and attacker will even out so that one player doesnt eat their own bank through futile attacks.
Of course there is such a thing as being TOO inefficient (and firecakes game today was an example) and this specifically needs to be solved over time through unit balance and exploring new strategies (or old ones).
Broodlords are still good and ultralisks are getting major buffs in LotV and so are roaches (with burrow move) and ravagers and any the new viper spell vs air, and lurkers etc etc.
the double harvest method seems somewhat unnatural, in the sense that a worker going back after mining but not returning the minerals (thats how the model works, right? only giving the minerals back every second trip. i cant play right now to test it) could be problematic in both early (scouting/worker micro) and out-mined late game scenarios. would it be possible to alter the model in a way that workers still return 5 minerals after every trip but still "stay" on the mineral patch for two trips (this could maybe lead to some sort of early game worker micro to boost effeciency)?
not quite sure if i am making sense or if i misunderstood your proposal.
On April 13 2015 09:09 Paljas wrote: the double harvest method seems somewhat unnatural, in the sense that a worker going back after mining but not returning the minerals (thats how the model works, right? only giving the minerals back every second trip. i cant play right now to test it) could be problematic in both early (scouting/worker micro) and out-mined late game scenarios. would it be possible to alter the model in a way that workers still return 5 minerals after every trip but still "stay" on the mineral patch for two trips (this could maybe lead to some sort of early game worker micro to boost effeciency)?
not quite sure if i am making sense or if i misunderstood your proposal.
If you look at the OP, there is a short gfycat of how it looks and works. They just harvest twice, they dont go back to the nexus in between
I'm wondering if it is possible to tweak the mining stats of workers, so that only the farther mineral patches can be paired and the nearer ones cannot? Judging from my not-so-pro opinion, wouldn't a slight decrease in the worker's checking time be able to do this? The mining time and the amount of mineral a worker mines can stay the same.
And we can then tweak the number of near patches vs. far patches in map design. It can either be standardized on all maps, or it can even be left upon the map designer to decide as a potential factor in map balancing. Like, if we have 4 near patches and 4 far patches, it would reduce the optimal worker number at a mineral line from the current 16 to 12. If this is not good enough, then we can have 6 near patches and 2 far patches, which brings the number down to 10. Forcing a worker pull wouldn't be so devastating, and it doesn't really cause a severe income rise as the mining rate stays the same.
I know next to nothing about the Map Editor so I don't know if we can test this (the worker AI's probably something hard coded tho). But if anybody knows how to achieve this I think it might be worth the try.
Awesome article, props to Zeromus and anyone else who contributed to the analysis and ideas that were discussed in the article. I'm sure it has been brought to the attention of Blizzard and I hope they can swallow their pride and adopt the double harvest model in the LOTV beta, or at least attempt to identify a more appropriate model which aims to achieve the optimal worker to mineral patch ratio of 1:1 which is so important.
The way they are currently going in LOTV seems too drastic and really doesn't address the problem that is at the root of the issue. The idea that a player can be punished by the game not for NOT doing something seems like bad design to me. Rewarding players for expanding rather than punishing players for not expanding leaves it up to the expanding player to punish the player that does not expand, instead of the game implicitly doing it for them by taking their mineral patches away. It may seem subtle but to me that is a very distinct difference.
I think this makes the biggest difference for low level players who might not expand very quickly. Not expanding won't necessarily doom them, even if their opponent does choose to expand, as it is still up to the expanding player to properly use their economic lead to punish their opponent and win the game.
Been thinking about the gold/blue mixed minerals idea a bit more and there's a problem I hadn't spotted that might, I think, take it out of the running.
Although you can tweak the amounts so that the gold minerals run out at a similar time to the blues on a saturated base, the very act of spreading your workers across unsaturated bases causes them to be mined unevenly.
With DH, if you split 16 workers across two bases you get increased efficiency until the base is exhausted. But with the mixed gold/blue bases, you're going to mine out of the gold patches first because that's where you send your workers.
For Zergs taking a quick third, this is made worse because they'll start in on their third gold minerals before saturating the first and second bases. So they'll get a heavily front-loaded burst of benefit, and then the income will dry up to a trickle.
I personally can't see that ending well. Zergs will have a gigantic mineral advantage to begin with, after which they'll be starving to death unless they can take a fourth and fifth in short order. That's way too bumpy a ride.
But did it feature the same passiveness? There is a huge strategical dynamic behind you being able to theoretically getting a 50% income advantage if your opponent is just passive.
No, and that's my point here. The main reason it didn't was only partially due to income assymetry and more related to unit design, hence why I previously wondered how turtly TvZ mech game would have been if teran replaced Goliaths with Vikings and Ravens while removing Dark Swarm from zerg. BW simply had a lot more anti-turtling counters while Sc2 interactions are more about preventing anything from occuring in the first place.
I think we can look at the incentive for army trading as a simple formula: X/Y. Armytrading occurs if the ratio is above 1. X = Income assymetry Y = Cost efficiency assymetry.
E.g. let's say that in current Sc2 X is 1.15 and Y is 1.5 --> the ratio is calculated as 1.15/1.5 --> below 1 --> no armytrading is rewarded. If those numbers are correct, isn't it a bit missing point if all the analysis focus on ways to increase the X value to 1.25 while ignoring the Y value? Remember that the Y value is reduced when your forced to spread your self thinner as it makes it easier for the enemy to find the weak links.
And on top of that, remember that X most likely will be increased going from HOTS to LOTV economy as the immobile race cannt always be on 3 active bases.
I don't see how a real defensive, immobile style would even be playable in LotV economy
Here is a suggestion:
- 2 supply Siege Tanks - Upgrade that requires Fusion Core = +15 damage to Siege Tanks (PDD needs to go completely 20 sec still dumb)
Effect: Tanks get cost efficiently enough (raises Y value from what probably in a post Raven world is close to 1.15 to 1.3 in the late game. if X is around 1.3 as well you should get some really solid gameplay.) The point being here isn't about the exact numbers, but rather how you should balance/design units around the income assymetry in the economy. An economy can not be analyzed as good or bad in a vacuum. Rather you have to look at the opportunites to fix the flaws through changes to units.
I think I understand what you are getting at. So what you would want is pairs of X and Y values that come at different points in the game. So let's use your example of the siege tank and think about a TvZ. At the beginning stages of the game when both players are on 3 base you have a pair (X1,Y1). Once the game progresses, terran stays on 3 base due to immobility and zerg moves on to 4-5. To account for this we have a new pair (X2,Y2) that results from the siege tank upgrade (changes Y) and the zergs increased mining (changes X). I think I have everything correct up to this point.
So my issue is then the immediate power spike once you transition from Y1 to Y2. The transition from X1 to X2 is more gradual as patches are depleting and zerg is moving drones to new bases. What happens then is terran has its highest chance to strike when he obtains Y2 while zerg the game is transitioning from X1 to X2. All upgrades have this power spike but the proposal of an upgrade that allows (X1/Y1) = (X2/Y2) has to to be incredibly powerful.
Why does this differ from a suggestion to first focus on X and then later Y? Let's look at (X3, Y3) -> (X4,Y4) Y3 -> Y4 is a gradual process predicated on the accumulation of tanks. As X3 -> X4, Y3-> Y4. Similarly we can have (X5,Y5) pairs and so on and so forth. The introduction of an upgrade to solve this process makes it so we can only have Y1 and Y2.
So now back to your suggestion, maybe if the tank has some kind of extremely specific scaling upgrade system we could obtain a similar gradient style approach. So +1 vehicle weapons gives siege tanks an extra 5 damage but +2 gives it an extra 15 or something like that. This would be extremely difficult still because the transition in LOTV from X1 -> X2 is relatively quick (it's still enough for the tank upgrade power spike, Y2, to be a problem) while upgrading something like vehicle weapons is spread over close to 10 minutes. Secondly, all immobile forces would have to adhere to this awkward scaling upgrade system.
On April 13 2015 09:45 dyDrawer wrote: I'm wondering if it is possible to tweak the mining stats of workers, so that only the farther mineral patches can be paired and the nearer ones cannot?
And we can then tweak the number of near patches vs. far patches in map design. It can either be standardized on all maps, or it can be left upon the map designer to decide as a potential factor in map balancing.
If I may plagiarize myself, I made a similar suggestion on reddit - just move some patches closer to the town hall, and some farther away:
that accomplishes the basic desire to have the first few workers more efficient and the last few less efficient. For example, maybe move 2 mineral patches closer (right next to the base?), 4 patches at roughly current distance, and 2 at 3-worker distance.
(...) The worker AI might need a little adjusting (if you don't want everyone to manually micro workers to patches!). Maybe the CC/Nexus/Hatch should "own" the AI for all the mineral-harvesting workers at a base, and direct the workers to maximize efficiency.
I noticed the suggestions regarding gold minerals are along the same lines - the core idea seems to be to make the first few mineral patches more valuable when you expand, so that there's always a reward for expanding even past 3 bases. I'll be happy if that's the takeaway by Blizzard from all this discussion.
On April 12 2015 05:58 ZeromuS wrote: I really hope people take the time to read this entire article. In it I break down the HotS economy, the LotV economy, and I provide what is truly more "BW-like" an economy that the TL strat team would love to see at least get a chance in LotV Beta.
Its a long beta.
Give other economic models a chance. Player influenced expansion based gameplay is we believe, a far better approach than time influenced expansion based gameplay.
Thanks for reading this huge thing, we spent a LOT of time on.
I read the whole thing, it is a good read and the conclusion here is obvious: some type of worker efficiency by double harvesting or double mining is better than the half patch approach. My only critique is that the article itself was overly simplistic with a lot of obvious statements and had many redundant statements and ideas. I suppose if you wanted to argue this to someone without any Starcraft knowledge, the ideas would need it to be simple and obvious (though the redundancy is unnecessary in all cases), but for the intended audience it seemed overboard.
I do want to say that I don't think it is a bad thing that pulling workers off the line is punished more with double mining as compared to current HOTS mining because if you're pulling workers then one of the following is happening:
1) You're Terran and doing all-in and at that point you don't care about your economy.
2) You didn't scout worth a damn, and therefore you're being punished for not scouting. And scouting has really fallen off in HOTS compared to WOL.
3) You're being harassed.
I really think the overall skill level of Starcraft goes up when there is more strategic diversity. And more strategic diversity means an increasing need to scout because there are more strategies to prepare for. And scouting and making reads is an important part of the game. Workers aren't combat units, don't use them as such. I also really want to play one base again more often because it's awesome, so that's why I also like double mining. Double harvesting is probably the way to go.
But anyway, this article is very well done and logically sound, probably the best I've read on TL. The conclusion is inescapable. I just hope Blizzard listens. Actually I'm praying they do.
On April 13 2015 13:42 BronzeKnee wrote: I do want to say that I don't think it is a bad thing that pulling workers off the line is punished more with double mining as compared to current HOTS mining because if you're pulling workers then one of the following is happening:
1) You're Terran and doing all-in and at that point you don't care about your economy.
2) You didn't scout worth a damn, and therefore you're being punished for not scouting. And scouting has really fallen off in HOTS compared to WOL.
3) You're being harassed.
Actually, this is more of an issue specifically with hyper early proxies like proxy 2-gate in PvP and 6pools in ZvZ where you HAVE to defend with workers or at least dance them some. In these cases, you have a much slimmer chance of defending all-ins which are already difficult to hold because you're likely losing a lot more mining.
Some of these are literally not scoutable on 4-player maps in time, which is why they're already powerful.
The double harvest model helps a lot with making these all-ins a little less harsh in comparison.
EDIT: also, 10-gate into 3-gate and proxy gate/core PvP
On April 13 2015 13:42 BronzeKnee wrote: I do want to say that I don't think it is a bad thing that pulling workers off the line is punished more with double mining as compared to current HOTS mining because if you're pulling workers then one of the following is happening:
1) You're Terran and doing all-in and at that point you don't care about your economy.
2) You didn't scout worth a damn, and therefore you're being punished for not scouting. And scouting has really fallen off in HOTS compared to WOL.
3) You're being harassed.
Actually, this is more of an issue specifically with hyper early proxies like proxy 2-gate in PvP and 6pools in ZvZ where you HAVE to defend with workers or at least dance them some. In these cases, you have a much slimmer chance of defending all-ins which are already difficult to hold because you're likely losing a lot more mining.
Some of these are literally not scoutable on 4-player maps in time, which is why they're already powerful.
The double harvest model helps a lot with making these all-ins a little less harsh in comparison.
EDIT: also, 10-gate into 3-gate and proxy gate/core PvP
4 player maps for a 2 player game never really made sense to me anyway. Either way, double harvest is certainly going to be the easier (and for our sake and Blizzard's that is better) model to implement.
I'm a bit perplexed about something here. Every economic idea comes from a specific game orienting philosophy. In this y'all described that a player driven economy is better than a time driven economy, but that doesn't really explain to me the background as to why you guys want to emulate brood war. I get that player driven is going to be more fun than time driven in the case of SC, but how does that connect to making a BW-esque system? Why should blizzard implement that over a novel system that may work better for the SC2 AI? I'm not necessarily hating on this because the write up is fantastic, but I don't see the background connection between those two.
On April 13 2015 15:09 docvoc wrote: I'm a bit perplexed about something here. Every economic idea comes from a specific game orienting philosophy. In this y'all described that a player driven economy is better than a time driven economy, but that doesn't really explain to me the background as to why you guys want to emulate brood war. I get that player driven is going to be more fun than time driven in the case of SC, but how does that connect to making a BW-esque system? Why should blizzard implement that over a novel system that may work better for the SC2 AI? I'm not necessarily hating on this because the write up is fantastic, but I don't see the background connection between those two.
Because in BW expands were player driven, not time driven. And honestly for this argument, that fact is just a coincidence. The fact that feature happened to be in BW is of no consequence to the logical strength of argument. So simply stating "that feature is in BW, we shouldn't use it" is terrible argument.
What people like you are missing, is all the features that people didn't like in BW that aren't in SC2, that people aren't clamoring for. I don't want SC2 to be BW. But that doesn't mean that we can't and shouldn't learn from BW to improve SC2, especially given how similar the games are. There is nothing wrong with SC2 emulating parts of successful games to become better. Just like there is nothing wrong someone with emulating the habits of successful people to become better.
Blizzard should implement player driven expands in LOTV because it makes more sense strategically and adds to the game. Not because it was in BW.
On April 13 2015 15:09 docvoc wrote: I'm a bit perplexed about something here. Every economic idea comes from a specific game orienting philosophy. In this y'all described that a player driven economy is better than a time driven economy, but that doesn't really explain to me the background as to why you guys want to emulate brood war. I get that player driven is going to be more fun than time driven in the case of SC, but how does that connect to making a BW-esque system? Why should blizzard implement that over a novel system that may work better for the SC2 AI? I'm not necessarily hating on this because the write up is fantastic, but I don't see the background connection between those two.
On April 13 2015 00:48 Teoita wrote: I think it kind of does that - the first few workers are more efficient because they have access to the gold nodes. In that model, you have higher income on 4bases because you have access to more gold nodes. Am i missing anything?
I suppose your right to some extent. The issues are similar to the LotV model in that the gold nodes are going to mine out quicker than the blue nodes (at the proposed 7/4 model it takes about 30% longer to mine out the blue ones). You could change the values on the golds to correct this, but that is kinda weird (having two kinds of gold minerals). The mmpm graph also looks unnatural. I'm not convinced that its necessarily better than DH as a result. DH feels like a very organic solution (so does FRB for that matter) whereas gold nodes and mixed minerals don;t.
You know, I agree with you about what feels more "organic." I also think Blizzard might have a different opinion. It could be more productive for us to push for something that we think Blizzard will more likely accept, to give us the best chance of seeing improvements to the game we love.
Actually, the premise of the argument is to abolish the 2:1 worker:node ratio. DH is the best solution that we came up with with the given limitations. The worker AI doesn't change so no unit is being made dumber, so let's stop using that terminology. What you mean is worker bouncing on the mineral lines -- which actually already happens once you get to 17 or more workers. So we're not introducing anything new through breaking the 2:1 ratio. But lets say Blizzard wanted to experiment with breaking 2:1 but didn't want to have massive bouncing at 9+ workers, then beta is the perfect time for them to change the worker AI to cleverly select the mineral that will be available first beyond what already happens. Even in that instance, having a 1:1 optimal ratio as opposed to 2:1 would achieve the benefits outlined in the post.
This is important because if you accept that 66 workers is optimal in terms of economy supply vs army supply, then the 48 workers mining minerals need 24 mineral patches to be optimal. The gold patch model doesn't change this, and hence doesn't change the 3 base paradigm. FRB changes the 24 patch cap to four bases which is better (and arguably 5 bases due to less workers mining gas). DH changes this to that you need 48 patches to be optimal which is 6 bases and in any normal game you're never going to have 6 bases mining simultaneously. The effect of this is that there is always an advantage to having more bases if you can defend it, meaning there is no effective base cap unlike every other model suggested. It's worth noting that FRB (under Barrins 6m1g implementation) gets really damn close to this, and why that model worked quite well in encouraging expanding.
tldr; no one is asking for a BW economy. We want to break the three base cap in a more interesting way than is currently suggested.
It's also worth pointing out that the model where the worker collects two rounds of minerals is distinctly not-BW. BW was one round of 8 minerals, this is two rounds of 5 chunks mined one after another.
Read the whole article. Took me awhile. But damn was that a good read. I was actually very happy when Blizzard announced they're prepared to tinker with the economy and I thought that increasing the number of starting workers might just do the trick. However, after reading some articles and watching beta games, it really did seem to give too much focus on expanding. I really like your Double Harvest alternative economic model, it looks perfect on paper!
I like the thought process behind this suggestion and I definitely think Blizzard should be inspired. I like the idea of a decreasing return to workers which encourages players to expand more.
The proposed model (double harvest) give the players more income per minute, even when the base is almost satisfied (16-23 workers). I find this an unnecessary balance change, which is noted by many others here. Instead, I think a preferable model should opt for a mineral income that is more similar to HotS than the proposed model, but still keeps some of its expansion rewards.
It is possible to combine decreasing returns to workers at the same base (which is the goal of the model) with only small changes to the total incomes from a one base economy. This could be done with a model in which the income per worker is higher for the first 16 workers (compared to HotS) but lower than Hots for more than 16 workers (given a one base economy). I think that this change needs to be quite small to get an important effect in terms of rewards to taking more bases. In sum, I find the proposition in the article too radical, but like the idea behind it.
Tweet with graph :
(By the way, I also think Blizzard should test with 8 workers to get somewhat less of the very early game (which is to slow), but still keep some of the proxy strategies. )
But when it comes to unit design and balance that is completely outside the scope of this article.
I am fine with not focussing on this area too much, but when you recommend a new economy you also need some ideas on what the game would look like with changes to the economy. I think a LOTV, HOTS and BW'ish economy should be assessed on two conditions:
(1) What gameplay and diversity would look like with proper unit changes/designs (2) How easy it is to make "proper" changes for the given economy (if an economy needs 200 changes to work and another economy needs 5 changes to work, its an advantage ot the latter).
So my point here is that whether an economy is good or bad cannot properly be assessed in a vacuum.
This is because from my perspective, and what I've seen in HotS the aggressor rarely trades efficiently with the defender and if the income is capped, net losses will always favour the player who loses less assuming both income rates are the same.
But we should be comparing a BW'ish economy to a LOTV economy now. Isn't it going to be much easier to see army trades when the immobile player is spread out over a lot more bases? This is why I wonder what the theoretical arguments are against implementing these two changes to LOTV:
(1) Siege tanks = 2 supply (2) Siege tanks = Late game damage upgrade that requires Fusion core which makes them insanely strong (PDD removed/redesigned further) (Widow Mines cold also be 1 supply with some other tweaks, but not a dead neccesity).
Aren't you obtainining the same effect here as in BW (with the exception of a larger snowball effect). The defensive player is unlikely to always be on 3 active bases, but with super strong Siege Tanks he is capable of splitting the army up. The meching player will be able to trade cost effectively and the mobile player will have an easier time finding the weak links of the mech player. So my point here is that if late-game army-trading is the main argument, I think we might as well stick with the LOTV economy, and thus this argument is unlikely to convince Blizzard.
So my issue is then the immediate power spike once you transition from Y1 to Y2. The transition from X1 to X2 is more gradual as patches are depleting and zerg is moving drones to new bases. What happens then is terran has its highest chance to strike when he obtains Y2 while zerg the game is transitioning from X1 to X2. All upgrades have this power spike but the proposal of an upgrade that allows (X1/Y1) = (X2/Y2) has to to be incredibly powerful.
Here is why I don't suggest a gradual approach: (Defensive) Siege Tanks in Sc2 doesn't create fun games in the midgame! It did in BW TvZ as as Tanks could be used offensively to break down a defensive zerg player. But with warp ins and the high mobility + army count of zerg, Siege Tanks function more as a "stale-the-game" unit. Those types of unit only become interesting once you reach 4/5+ bases and your spread out all over the map.
Thus, I happen to think its actually pretty good if mech is more about mobility/harass while being light on Siege Tanks in the midgame and once the upgrade is researched and your on 4+bases, you start a transition into an immobile Siege Tank style.
And I don't like the argument of it reducing diversity, I think diversity should be a choice between different interesting styles, and I see lots of ways this can be accomplished. The desire to see Siege Tanks in the midgame seems like more of a nostalagia thing. Hence I think diversity here should be more focussed on the late-game viability of Siege Tanks.
Great article, thanks to the Strat team for all the efforts. I never thought about economy in detail, but now I see better what all the discussions are about. Interesting stuff for sure.
Blizz' said it was going to be longer so who knows, maybe they'll be interested to try stuff out. Although they're probably going to come up with their own solution (even if it is close to the one TL suggests) just for "political" reasons. They can't be seen as following what an independant website is telling them to do, so I doubt they're going to implement exactly what TL suggests. But who knows, I just hope this article sparks some discussions over at Blizz, and maybe they'll come up with some other interesting alternative !
Just to reiterate some things that have been mentioned already. Introducing a new economy that changes the amount of minerals versus gas income with the same number of workers would likely lead to having to adjust every unit in the game. For example marines, mines and medivacs and lings banelings and mutas. If it becomes possible to gain a higher mineral income with the same number of workers as before then baneling and mutas might have to cost less gas than they currently do. Even just that example would have a knock on effect for every other unit. The benefit of sticking to the same mining curve and optimal number of workers means that the majority of units can stay as they are, with the years of games behind them that show that they are where they need to be. Any new units or changes can be balanced against the well established system.
This is why I doubt there will be any official changes such as the ones mentioned as there is likely not enough time to go through all the rebalancing that would be required.
The optimal mining income comes from enough workers to mine from 24 mineral patches (3 bases) With the half patch approach it becomes a much greater battle to be able to stay at this level. The further a game goes on the more bases are down to 4 patches each and the players need to have up to 6 bases to have the same 24 mineral patch income. This provides the additional option of being able to go up to 12 gas geysers at the cost of mineral income (which is a benefit for protoss and zerg and terran can build extra orbitals for mules to maintain their mineral income as well as having a higher gas income). The game can then be adjusted until each race is capable of establishing themselves on the map well enough to be able to compete with denying their opponents income while increasing their own.
Making changes to the number of starting workers, the number of patches and the amount of resource in each patch/geyser along with the possibility of adding more abilities like mule/inject/chrono boost for each race seems like the approach that will be taken. This way allows the majority of the well established units to remain unchanged which I suspect is a priority for blizzard.
Team liquid mentioned that their next big article will be on testing unit interactions, I very much look forward to it. I also think it is too early to dismiss the half patch approach and will be interested to see the progress of the beta.
Great article, great read. This is something that needed to be discussed and implemented in the original game design back in 2008-2009 (although no-one knew the issue or implications back then). As many have states already, to make this change would require adjustments and balance changes to every unit and race ability (mules/inject/chrono boost) and that is not something that Blizzard is willing to go through during the beta. Their goal in the beta is marketing and fine-tuning of units, not game design (sadly).
On April 13 2015 22:08 kaiser_byrnes wrote: As many have states already, to make this change would require adjustments and balance changes to every unit and race ability (mules/inject/chrono boost) and that is not something that Blizzard is willing to go through during the beta. Their goal in the beta is marketing and fine-tuning of units, not game design (sadly).
I don't think that's the case this time. They haven't even revealed all new units so far.
Thanks for putting so much effort into this. I agree that the proposed double harvest model seems both better than the current LotV model and the best of the options discussed. Using a rational argument with little appeal to emotion is the best way to convey an effective message to a design team. In addition, the fact that this change has little to no negative impact on the casual player while increasing strategic diversity and player-opponent strategic interaction makes it an ideal candidate for Blizzard's stated "easy to learn, hard to master" game design strategy.
I also would love it if Blizzard would take a look at addressing bugs and various gameplay mechanics unchanged since SC2's initial development. Although DK initially dismissed LaLush's suggestions in his Depth of Micro post as too complex for a casual player to understand, they would not worsen the game for casual players because they do not make the game harder to play at a basic level. Attack moving would remain an effective strategy in gold league even if moving shot were implemented.
Just because something is not immediately comprehensible to a casual player does not mean that it cannot be added into the game. The key to appealing to low-skilled and high-skilled players at the same time is implementing mechanics that are fun, a challenge to exploit, enhance strategic diversity, and optional to understand at lower levels of play while beneficial at higher levels. The preservation of nuanced Warcraft III mechanics in Dota 2 is one of the principal reasons that game is so successful today, even though those mechanics are incredibly complicated and incomprehensible to most players.
On April 12 2015 05:58 ZeromuS wrote: I really hope people take the time to read this entire article. In it I break down the HotS economy, the LotV economy, and I provide what is truly more "BW-like" an economy that the TL strat team would love to see at least get a chance in LotV Beta.
Its a long beta.
Give other economic models a chance. Player influenced expansion based gameplay is we believe, a far better approach than time influenced expansion based gameplay.
Thanks for reading this huge thing, we spent a LOT of time on.
Be happy if 5% of people bother reading all of it honestly x_x
I am okay with that. If the ideas get out there, and begin to spread thats the important part.
Wow TL strat is boss. Great work you guys (and gals?)! Who knew you could just do double harvesting with no wait time to get bounce behavior, lul.
I am so excited that you guys banded together to try different adjustments and test them out to pick one with features we are looking for that stays close to what we know. I know that represents a lot of hard work.
I am also so impressed that you presented it so well. I know that is no small feat either. Now newbs, economy nuts, and blizzard employees can all be on the same page (because how is this being the best option yet put forward not clear as day after such a nice rundown?)
My question to you: what now? Do we tell it on the mountain? (How..??) Play games? Harass bliz forums and twitter? Rant over beers with friends like I usually do?
I'm sure you've begun to spin the heavy wheel of public opinion, something previous attempts haven't quite achieved. I want to get this into the LotV beta RIGHT NEW-EXPANSION-TIMING NOW.
On April 14 2015 06:12 EatThePath wrote: Wow TL strat is boss. Great work you guys (and gals?)! Who knew you could just do double harvesting with no wait time to get bounce behavior, lul.
I am so excited that you guys banded together to try different adjustments and test them out to pick one with features we are looking for that stays close to what we know. I know that represents a lot of hard work.
I am also so impressed that you presented it so well. I know that is no small feat either. Now newbs, economy nuts, and blizzard employees can all be on the same page (because how is this being the best option yet put forward not clear as day after such a nice rundown?)
My question to you: what now? Do we tell it on the mountain? (How..??) Play games? Harass bliz forums and twitter? Rant over beers with friends like I usually do?
I'm sure you've begun to spin the heavy wheel of public opinion, something previous attempts haven't quite achieved. I want to get this into the LotV beta RIGHT NEW-EXPANSION-TIMING NOW.
Play the extension, let people know about it, tell blizzard you want it if thats what you want.
The biggest goal of mine is that if it cant be implemented on live ladder since no one has access to the upload function for mods for LotV, I would love to see an extension mod put up for this by blizz (with 1400 sized min patches).
In the meantime we are looking to test it a little more and maybe get some showmatches on the model in HotS but its still really early in the process for that.
The best thing we can do is pressure blizzard to try it. It took a long time but the CS community got movement changes introduced to CSGO and along with skins (but it started after a major balance changes related to movement - the core CS mechanic) the game really took off.
Before the movement changes CS was not well loved and the community remained very fragmented between 1.6/source/GO.
On April 14 2015 06:12 EatThePath wrote: Wow TL strat is boss. Great work you guys (and gals?)! Who knew you could just do double harvesting with no wait time to get bounce behavior, lul.
I am so excited that you guys banded together to try different adjustments and test them out to pick one with features we are looking for that stays close to what we know. I know that represents a lot of hard work.
I am also so impressed that you presented it so well. I know that is no small feat either. Now newbs, economy nuts, and blizzard employees can all be on the same page (because how is this being the best option yet put forward not clear as day after such a nice rundown?)
My question to you: what now? Do we tell it on the mountain? (How..??) Play games? Harass bliz forums and twitter? Rant over beers with friends like I usually do?
I'm sure you've begun to spin the heavy wheel of public opinion, something previous attempts haven't quite achieved. I want to get this into the LotV beta RIGHT NEW-EXPANSION-TIMING NOW.
Play the extension, let people know about it, tell blizzard you want it if thats what you want.
The biggest goal of mine is that if it cant be implemented on live ladder since no one has access to the upload function for mods for LotV, I would love to see an extension mod put up for this by blizz (with 1400 sized min patches).
In the meantime we are looking to test it a little more and maybe get some showmatches on the model in HotS but its still really early in the process for that.
The best thing we can do is pressure blizzard to try it. It took a long time but the CS community got movement changes introduced to CSGO and along with skins (but it started after a major balance changes related to movement - the core CS mechanic) the game really took off.
Before the movement changes CS was not well loved and the community remained very fragmented between 1.6/source/GO.
I hope LotV is not just another WoL/HotS (#2) and will push SC2 into something similar to what GO signifies (#3). And, yes, I am kind of a BW and 1.6 elitist, but CSGO is popular for many good reasons. I play/watch CSGO and watch limited amounts of SC2, which has its merits sometimes. With the understanding that CSS got a lot of complaints and was never the proper successor to the acclaimed CS 1.6, I hope LotV is what takes SC2 to the next level in a similar manner for the classic BW.
I only complain about SC2, because I want it to be the best it can be. It is not there. Yet?
Is there an official chat channel yet? aka "Double Harvest" or something? Getting some good player numbers is important.
@Hider:
The efficiency side is definitely a good point and an interesting analytic angle. I have to bring up maps though as a sort of counterpoint. (Sorry if this happened already.) Map design in SC2 has spiraled in on strict 3rd base requirements and choke/openness/mobility homogeneity in order to balance the races in the "macro endgame" sense, heavily skewing towards promoting that style of gameplay. If 3rd bases aren't as easy to acquire and defend and less important as a marker of "endgame" economy, it changes the entire profile of the mech gameplan in relation to how the other races handle it in SC2. And 4th bases, etc... I don't know if the "positional play" elements in LotV are strong enough to support this kind of map design, but it's a very important factor in the equation. In short, the economy/efficiency ratio is a very useful metric for thinking about exchanges, but the efficiency parameter has so much variation based on other strategic factors (like map layout) it's hard to make any strong statements about it. Whereas talking about a expansion-rewarding economy is more clear cut.
On April 14 2015 07:04 GodZo wrote: I didn't undestand a single image, should I to read all the thread? : )
please do youll like it
On April 14 2015 07:00 EatThePath wrote: Is there an official chat channel yet? aka "Double Harvest" or something? Getting some good player numbers is important.
@Hider:
The efficiency side is definitely a good point and an interesting analytic angle. I have to bring up maps though as a sort of counterpoint. (Sorry if this happened already.) Map design in SC2 has spiraled in on strict 3rd base requirements and choke/openness/mobility homogeneity in order to balance the races in the "macro endgame" sense, heavily skewing towards promoting that style of gameplay. If 3rd bases aren't as easy to acquire and defend and less important as a marker of "endgame" economy, it changes the entire profile of the mech gameplan in relation to how the other races handle it in SC2. And 4th bases, etc... I don't know if the "positional play" elements in LotV are strong enough to support this kind of map design, but it's a very important factor in the equation. In short, the economy/efficiency ratio is a very useful metric for thinking about exchanges, but the efficiency parameter has so much variation based on other strategic factors (like map layout) it's hard to make any strong statements about it. Whereas talking about a expansion-rewarding economy is more clear cut.
If you get on before I do just make a group for me
On April 13 2015 15:09 docvoc wrote: I'm a bit perplexed about something here. Every economic idea comes from a specific game orienting philosophy. In this y'all described that a player driven economy is better than a time driven economy, but that doesn't really explain to me the background as to why you guys want to emulate brood war. I get that player driven is going to be more fun than time driven in the case of SC, but how does that connect to making a BW-esque system? Why should blizzard implement that over a novel system that may work better for the SC2 AI? I'm not necessarily hating on this because the write up is fantastic, but I don't see the background connection between those two.
On April 13 2015 00:48 Teoita wrote: I think it kind of does that - the first few workers are more efficient because they have access to the gold nodes. In that model, you have higher income on 4bases because you have access to more gold nodes. Am i missing anything?
I suppose your right to some extent. The issues are similar to the LotV model in that the gold nodes are going to mine out quicker than the blue nodes (at the proposed 7/4 model it takes about 30% longer to mine out the blue ones). You could change the values on the golds to correct this, but that is kinda weird (having two kinds of gold minerals). The mmpm graph also looks unnatural. I'm not convinced that its necessarily better than DH as a result. DH feels like a very organic solution (so does FRB for that matter) whereas gold nodes and mixed minerals don;t.
You know, I agree with you about what feels more "organic." I also think Blizzard might have a different opinion. It could be more productive for us to push for something that we think Blizzard will more likely accept, to give us the best chance of seeing improvements to the game we love.
Actually, the premise of the argument is to abolish the 2:1 worker:node ratio. DH is the best solution that we came up with with the given limitations. The worker AI doesn't change so no unit is being made dumber, so let's stop using that terminology. What you mean is worker bouncing on the mineral lines -- which actually already happens once you get to 17 or more workers. So we're not introducing anything new through breaking the 2:1 ratio. But lets say Blizzard wanted to experiment with breaking 2:1 but didn't want to have massive bouncing at 9+ workers, then beta is the perfect time for them to change the worker AI to cleverly select the mineral that will be available first beyond what already happens. Even in that instance, having a 1:1 optimal ratio as opposed to 2:1 would achieve the benefits outlined in the post.
This is important because if you accept that 66 workers is optimal in terms of economy supply vs army supply, then the 48 workers mining minerals need 24 mineral patches to be optimal. The gold patch model doesn't change this, and hence doesn't change the 3 base paradigm. FRB changes the 24 patch cap to four bases which is better (and arguably 5 bases due to less workers mining gas). DH changes this to that you need 48 patches to be optimal which is 6 bases and in any normal game you're never going to have 6 bases mining simultaneously. The effect of this is that there is always an advantage to having more bases if you can defend it, meaning there is no effective base cap unlike every other model suggested. It's worth noting that FRB (under Barrins 6m1g implementation) gets really damn close to this, and why that model worked quite well in encouraging expanding.
tldr; no one is asking for a BW economy. We want to break the three base cap in a more interesting way than is currently suggested.
It's also worth pointing out that the model where the worker collects two rounds of minerals is distinctly not-BW. BW was one round of 8 minerals, this is two rounds of 5 chunks mined one after another.
Awesome, thanks for the explanation Plexa, and for being nicer going about it haha.
There's a variety of different ways that you could change the game to make things work out "differently". I won't say "better", because that is going to affect a lot of other things in the game that could make things worse, not better. With that being said, one of the things I dislike about SC2 is the lack of diminishing returns on more workers on a mineral line.
Another solution I remember reading about in the past was allowing multiple workers mine mineral patches at the same time, but adding diminishing returns to the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc, miner on the individual patch. If the first miner gets 5 minerals in a trip, the 2nd would get just 4, the third would just get 3, the 4th would just get 2, and any more would just get 1, for instance.
I felt like being able to mine more minerals per minute with the same number of workers, or mining the same amount of minerals per minute with less workers, was a great incentive to try to expand more than your opponent in BW and it should exist in some way, shape, or form in SC2.
On April 14 2015 08:14 Impervious wrote: There's a variety of different ways that you could change the game to make things work out "differently". I won't say "better", because that is going to affect a lot of other things in the game that could make things worse, not better.
Sometimes, you have to get worse in order to get better. When Tiger Woods decided to change how he swung a golf club, initially he got a lot worse, but then he became better than he had ever been.
I think it is important to understand that the more willing someone is to try different things, the higher the chances they will get better are. I think we understand this new economy enough to realize that it forces people to expand faster. Blizzard should try a few other different things and see what works, and then go from there. In doing so, they might actually come up with the perfect system after a bunch of iterations.
First, why is the "expand or die" mentality such a bad thing? MY personal favorite games, both as a player and spectator, have always been scrappy low econ games.
Second, why can't we tweak the current system instead? There have been countless suggestions on how to tweak the current system, surely one of them is worth a shit?
Also, I feel that the authors hold BW as a gold standard, as in, they want to emulate BW econ above all else. The problem I have here is, who is to say the BW econ is truly the pinnacle? Why is "BW-esque" synonymous with "good" in this community? I feel as though the relative failure of Starbow is proof that the BW purists and their ideas are not all they are cracked up to be.
edit: another thing. Is it possible that the reason a BW player (usually Terran Mech) could compete with lower base counts against a player with higher base counts is because of the way units are designed in BW? The Siege Tank was a lot better, there were fewer harassment options, and so on. On the same note, with the amount of viable harassment options in LotV, is a player really going to want to take additional bases, spreading themselves thinner, for a modest resource gain? I feel like players will still want to stick to 3 bases for that reason
On April 14 2015 09:30 coolman123123 wrote: I have two questions.
First, why is the "expand or die" mentality such a bad thing? MY personal favorite games, both as a player and spectator, have always been scrappy low econ games.
Second, why can't we tweak the current system instead? There have been countless suggestions on how to tweak the current system, surely one of them is worth a shit?
Also, I feel that the authors hold BW as a gold standard, as in, they want to emulate BW econ above all else. The problem I have here is, who is to say the BW econ is truly the pinnacle? Why is "BW-esque" synonymous with "good" in this community? I feel as though the relative failure of Starbow is proof that the BW purists and their ideas are not all they are cracked up to be.
edit: another thing. Is it possible that the reason a BW player (usually Terran Mech) could compete with lower base counts against a player with higher base counts is because of the way units are designed in BW? The Siege Tank was a lot better, there were fewer harassment options, and so on.
This isn't BW-esque.
It is a very different system than BW.
The ONLY lesson we take from BW in our approach is to drop the efficiency of workers from 100% (full mining) starting with the 9th.
The thing we are borrowing is the idea that players who expand a lot are rewarded for it.
I don't want broodwar, I was never good at bw, i didnt play it so much as to have rose coloured nostalgia goggles.
What I do want is to create a positive influence on the need to expand in this game. What I don't like is being FORCED into scrappy low econ games. They happen, thats fine, they will happen with the double harvest system as well. Its just that if every game or most games in LotV end up being scrappy thats bad. We dont want every game to be a turtle fest the same way we dont want every game to be scrappy.
From our perspective its better to offer more options to players through more rewarding expansions than to take away the strategies that rely on smaller base counts. I just want to see tools offered to players to counter turtle strategies that are more effective.
Personally, I feel that double harvest does this best within the game of sc2. Again, this is not BW. BW mined 8 minerals at a time and over a long period of time.
This does 2 harvests 5 at a time and when 10 minerals is reached (2 harvests) the probe returns to the mineral line.
I think that its fine to want to reduce overall mineral counts in bases, just not the way LotV is doing it atm.
I think that its very punishing for players who dont expand and changes the value of tech based or slow (mech) based armies. Mech can't hold that many positions on the map at once, and you can't expect them to take 5 bases quickly to keep up income. I guess if you want to have primarily mobile playstyles in LotV thats fine. But mobile playstyles aren't the same as space control playstyles like tank based mech.
I also worry that the changes will be unfriendly to new players since they often play slower and if their bases mine out quickly, they might not have fun with the game even at a low or casual level. I guess they could play fastest map mods so that they never have to expand or run out of minerals, but, im not sure thats good either.
I simply want to provide players with more options in how to approach the game and encourage more expansions through more reward for those bases.
Also part of the problem with the expand or die mentality is that it removes some of the power a player has over their game. You not only need to fight your opponent, you also need to fight your own base. And this kind of dynamic is very much related to race asymmetry. Map control and economy are related and tempered by the existence of tech. This little triangle of relationships is kind of toyed with in the lotv economy and requires A LOT of changes during beta to get right. I think if we begin to fully balance around the LotV econ and discover its less than optimal then we have committed hard to a path we cannot change. that is why now is the best time to try new things.
On the topic of race asymettry, if you make it easier for Terran and Protoss to mass expand like Zerg, they lose some of their identity or rather zerg loses some of its identity. And thats another issue altogether i don't have time to really get into.
On April 13 2015 15:09 docvoc wrote: I'm a bit perplexed about something here. Every economic idea comes from a specific game orienting philosophy. In this y'all described that a player driven economy is better than a time driven economy, but that doesn't really explain to me the background as to why you guys want to emulate brood war. I get that player driven is going to be more fun than time driven in the case of SC, but how does that connect to making a BW-esque system? Why should blizzard implement that over a novel system that may work better for the SC2 AI? I'm not necessarily hating on this because the write up is fantastic, but I don't see the background connection between those two.
On April 13 2015 00:48 Teoita wrote: I think it kind of does that - the first few workers are more efficient because they have access to the gold nodes. In that model, you have higher income on 4bases because you have access to more gold nodes. Am i missing anything?
I suppose your right to some extent. The issues are similar to the LotV model in that the gold nodes are going to mine out quicker than the blue nodes (at the proposed 7/4 model it takes about 30% longer to mine out the blue ones). You could change the values on the golds to correct this, but that is kinda weird (having two kinds of gold minerals). The mmpm graph also looks unnatural. I'm not convinced that its necessarily better than DH as a result. DH feels like a very organic solution (so does FRB for that matter) whereas gold nodes and mixed minerals don;t.
You know, I agree with you about what feels more "organic." I also think Blizzard might have a different opinion. It could be more productive for us to push for something that we think Blizzard will more likely accept, to give us the best chance of seeing improvements to the game we love.
Actually, the premise of the argument is to abolish the 2:1 worker:node ratio. DH is the best solution that we came up with with the given limitations. The worker AI doesn't change so no unit is being made dumber, so let's stop using that terminology. What you mean is worker bouncing on the mineral lines -- which actually already happens once you get to 17 or more workers. So we're not introducing anything new through breaking the 2:1 ratio. But lets say Blizzard wanted to experiment with breaking 2:1 but didn't want to have massive bouncing at 9+ workers, then beta is the perfect time for them to change the worker AI to cleverly select the mineral that will be available first beyond what already happens. Even in that instance, having a 1:1 optimal ratio as opposed to 2:1 would achieve the benefits outlined in the post.
This is important because if you accept that 66 workers is optimal in terms of economy supply vs army supply, then the 48 workers mining minerals need 24 mineral patches to be optimal. The gold patch model doesn't change this, and hence doesn't change the 3 base paradigm. FRB changes the 24 patch cap to four bases which is better (and arguably 5 bases due to less workers mining gas). DH changes this to that you need 48 patches to be optimal which is 6 bases and in any normal game you're never going to have 6 bases mining simultaneously. The effect of this is that there is always an advantage to having more bases if you can defend it, meaning there is no effective base cap unlike every other model suggested. It's worth noting that FRB (under Barrins 6m1g implementation) gets really damn close to this, and why that model worked quite well in encouraging expanding.
tldr; no one is asking for a BW economy. We want to break the three base cap in a more interesting way than is currently suggested.
It's also worth pointing out that the model where the worker collects two rounds of minerals is distinctly not-BW. BW was one round of 8 minerals, this is two rounds of 5 chunks mined one after another.
This is so over and above what Blizzard should need to take a really good look at this idea. Such a better way to spread things out. Great job as always.
This has got to be the most complete idea I've ever seen presented in a gaming community. The main post was really well done, and the discussion seems good, too.
One thing that I'd be worried about is the implications that the new mining approach has on timing. For example, if it allows Protoss to always 14 Nexus safely vs. Zerg aside from 6 Pool, and still allows the scouting Probe to block Hatch First then it may cause some serious problems. However, I guess you'll look at that after the initial discussion.
Your new econ model seems great, though. One of the things that made Broodwar dynamic was the large spread on bases. Giving more area to cover defensively means that you need to be careful, and make enough units to keep your workers safe. On the flip side, you also need to be expanding at a rate to keep up economically. This balance should make the game more interesting, as well as adding another skill-based factor to play.
I haven't played since WoL, but if this new econ were added I would seriously consider switching back from BW.
Read through the post a second time with Plexa's comments in mind. I definitely get where you are coming from Zeromus. How do you think this will affect strategy timings for the early game or early game worker scouting. This method will change the make up of the game, and I think with the effort you've put into the write up and the numbers you've posted the change is welcome. That being said do you think that externalities of the change (like having fewer workers meaning harder to pull of SCV all ins or more costly early game scouting for protoss before obs) whether they are considered positive and negative will be difficult to negotiate? I'm not asking you to have it all figured out right now by any means, and I don't want this to come off like I'm being contentious. I'm just curious since I'm sure you've put a lot of thought into this question given how far reaching changing an economy is. I like breaking from the 2:1 ratio though, I think that opens up a lot of economic opportunities in the game.
Very good statistics and model. No wonder people complain about zerg in LOTV. It is because the economy allows the zerg to get multiple bases with few saturation, which ultimately capitalizes on economy now. In HotS it was more balanced based off the stats. I can see why terran econ is bad in LOTV (Even though they have the uber cyclone).
Basicly it means that the race that can produce the most workers fastest is the most efficient based off this article. Meaning Zerg with inject get the most workers out. It is not so much that the Ravager is OP. I honestly believe it isn't compared to most people. Its just zerg is so good with econ in this game.
You might as well just CC First or Nexus First every game.
On April 14 2015 12:46 RuFF_SC2 wrote: Very good statistics and model. No wonder people complain about zerg in LOTV. It is because the economy allows the zerg to get multiple bases with few saturation, which ultimately capitalizes on economy now. In HotS it was more balanced based off the stats. I can see why terran econ is bad in LOTV (Even though they have the uber cyclone).
Basicly it means that the race that can produce the most workers fastest is the most efficient based off this article. Meaning Zerg with inject get the most workers out. It is not so much that the Ravager is OP. I honestly believe it isn't compared to most people. Its just zerg is so good with econ in this game.
You might as well just CC First or Nexus First every game.
In LotV the workers mine just like HotS.
The problem is that Zerg has access to bases so much easier, and if you can deny or slow a third down your advantage gets huge. On top of that, the units are so strong that they become cost efficient vs a lesser econ always You are the reverse protoss right now.
One of the major problems with the current LotV model is also that it really messes with the MULE mechanic. Anything that causes you to mine out quicker is an issue. (Also, not a fan of being "forced" to drop MULEs on closer patches to preserve overall income rate.) This is a big reason I'd rather see DH (or DM, or more gold bases) tried.
I do think the LotV changes are better than HotS and I'm curious to see things playing out with a larger tester-base (especially since most of those with beta are -or should be- busy with WCS).
Okay I'm less and less convinced by DH and DM models, I profundly dislike the income you have at lower worker counts that can go almost up to 50% compared to HotS according to Zeromus spreadshit.
That said, I believe in testing and experimentation, so I'm up to play with people with the extension mods. If you guys want to prove your point, it's time to create a channel in game so we can meet, play and test this crap
I'm Gwavanoob on EU server, still in plat, booooh.
On April 14 2015 15:37 Gwavajuice wrote: Okay I'm less and less convinced by DH and DM models, I profundly dislike the income you have at lower worker counts that can go almost up to 50% compared to HotS according to Zeromus spreadshit.
That said, I believe in testing and experimentation, so I'm up to play with people with the extension mods. If you guys want to prove your point, it's time to create a channel in game so we can meet, play and test this crap
I'm Gwavanoob on EU server, still in plat, booooh.
I do think small tweaks can be done there - such as changing mining time slightly...
wait, what happens if mining time is simply changed in the current model?
Say we just up the income and mining time by 20%? (6 per trip and 3.2 mining time)? e1: I assume this would still allow 2 workers to pair on long patches but would probably cause a dip at 12 workers? e2: too small a change, pairing still possible.
Wow short of changing the worker ai this is genius. Awesome groundbreaking work and impressive analysis both of the positive and negative effects. The economiv change in lotv seems pretty meh to me, trying to force players to play like blizz wants them too by punishing some strategies is just bad from a rts point of view. Creating incentive for playing differently is definitely the prefered way to go.
If this change would to be tested I would be so hyped for lotv beta, just imagine all the possibilies for strategic choice.
You can expand aggresively and focus on defence while being stretched thin. You could expand fast as P and try and attack at the same time, thus the economic advantage will kick in during the attack and the enemy will be surprised at your increased economy and production. If your enemy goes the eco route you can choose to try and harass, remember harass will thus be more costly for the expanded player, each worker might carry more minerals and each worker mines more and is thus worth more. Harass becomes more lethal while expanding and defending harass becomes more rewarding
This feels like it would really be positive for the game and give players very creative freedom with how they want to play the game.
So hyped about such an awesome article that really shows a golden light of possible improvements to the game. Thank you for all your work on this!
On April 14 2015 09:30 coolman123123 wrote: I have two questions.
First, why is the "expand or die" mentality such a bad thing? MY personal favorite games, both as a player and spectator, have always been scrappy low econ games.
can be done by simply throwing in maps with lower base counts, don't see why the lotv eco is needed for this
Second, why can't we tweak the current system instead? There have been countless suggestions on how to tweak the current system, surely one of them is worth a shit?
this is pretty much what the thread is about.
Also, I feel that the authors hold BW as a gold standard, as in, they want to emulate BW econ above all else. The problem I have here is, who is to say the BW econ is truly the pinnacle? Why is "BW-esque" synonymous with "good" in this community? I feel as though the relative failure of Starbow is proof that the BW purists and their ideas are not all they are cracked up to be.
if you paid any attention to it you would know it largely failed due to the complete faillure the arcade&custom games are, and that nobody takes time to find a game when they can press a search game button.
edit: another thing. Is it possible that the reason a BW player (usually Terran Mech) could compete with lower base counts against a player with higher base counts is because of the way units are designed in BW? The Siege Tank was a lot better, there were fewer harassment options, and so on. On the same note, with the amount of viable harassment options in LotV, is a player really going to want to take additional bases, spreading themselves thinner, for a modest resource gain? I feel like players will still want to stick to 3 bases for that reason
as for the BW thing, I suggest you watch some BW TvP vods to get a better understanding of the economical mechanics behind that MU.
as for the 3base thing, well, you can try that in LotV but your 3 base simply aren't fully functional 3base because some of them have half the patches mined out now, so you're forcibly kicked of your 3base eco.
edit: another thing. Is it possible that the reason a BW player (usually Terran Mech) could compete with lower base counts against a player with higher base counts is because of the way units are designed in BW? The Siege Tank was a lot better, there were fewer harassment options, and so on.
Vultures in especially TvP were incredibly strong. They hardcountered meele units and could be cost effective vs Dragoons with proper Spider Mine control and would relatively easily take out Photo Cannons as they deat 20 damage to shields. A 75 mineral Vulture is probably better in most situations than a 100 mineral Hellion.
Thus, its incorrect to imply that mech in BW was less harassment focussed than it is in WOL/HOTS. However, LOTV definitely seems to change that. Sc2-mech in TvZ is, however, much more reliant on the Raven than mech-Terran relied on the Science Vessel.
The real strenght of BW mech lied in the late game where you would see a gameplay that was more based on armytrading than stale deathball focussed as in Sc2. This is a result of multiple factors though (not just econ), Tanks being stronger late game (and 2 supply) is definitely one of them, but at the same time the opponent was given the tools to break it down. So we don't see any scenarios where you attack into 20 Ravens and dealt 0 damage.
Another difference with BW mech and Sc2 mech was that it was easier to attack/make timing attacks with BW mech. In Sc2 your always´waiting for critical mass when you mech vs zerg while vs toss tanks just aren't very good (at least they weren't prior to LOTV). In Sc2 TvT, however, you do see some comparables to BW mech as you can make 2 base and 3 base timing attacks (vs bio/tank) + static defense doesn't shut down your harass.
Meching vs zerg in Sc2 is problematic as the race is so strong in the midgame and therefore outnumbers you. In BW Zerg had much less larva and therefore didn't have as strong map control in the midgame. In Sc2, it is neccesary that you have a good escape-mechanic if you move out on the map vs Zerg (such as Medivac with speed boosts) as you likely get outnumbered.
At last, terran mech in Sc2 are also very exposed to heavy Mutalisk play which makes it hard to be aggressive. The new terran AA unit could however help with that.
Again, double mining is not BW, even though it has the same consequence of "more than 3bases is good for both mineral and gas income!". So does Blizzard's model to a certain extent, we just think that DM is a more elegant solution
I agree that mining inefficiency when worker number grows is the best method to provide encouragement for more expansion than what current LotV Beta implements.
But it does seem like the current macro mechanics would need some reworking. MULEs would give Terran the mineral advantage without risking an immediate expansion(assuming they still work the same way in this model). Larva Inject means Zerg grows significantly with every expansion in economy and in production. Chronoboost however, accelerate the economy but takes up supply in probes and starts mining inefficiently earlier, which probably forces an earlier expansion timing.
I guess what I want to express is that with the mining inefficiency model current Protoss macro mechanic has less reward with more risk, and thus not up to par with the other 2 races.
The same can be said about the LotV economy model though. Mules are annoying because the terran is on an even more brutal clock to expand, chrono is underwhelming, while larva inject+faster thirds give Zerg enormous freedom, and keep their own "expanding clock" from being as harsh as protoss or terran.
Chronoboost however, accelerate the economy but takes up supply in probes and starts mining inefficiently earlier, which probably forces an earlier expansion timing.
Depends on what the income-rate is past the 16th worker. In BW you actually benfited more 16+ workers than in Sc2 which meant that you could sit on 2 bases with 55-60 workers and not be terribly behind a 4base-opponent. Giving that protoss is more immobile, its highly likely they will opt for a high probe count + low base count and be aggressive on 2-3 bases.
On April 14 2015 17:52 Teoita wrote: The same can be said about the LotV economy model though. Mules are annoying because the terran is on an even more brutal clock to expand, chrono is underwhelming, while larva inject+faster thirds give Zerg enormous freedom, and keep their own "expanding clock" from being as harsh as protoss or terran.
Which is why I agree that mining inefficiency model is the way to go. What's next though could be a fundamental shake up to the game instead of just a straight implementation. Macro mechanic is one of the specific area that first comes to mind.
Chronoboost however, accelerate the economy but takes up supply in probes and starts mining inefficiently earlier, which probably forces an earlier expansion timing.
Depends on what the income-rate is past the 16th worker. In BW you actually benfited more 16+ workers than in Sc2 which meant that you could sit on 2 bases with 55-60 workers and not be terribly behind a 4base-opponent. Giving that protoss is more immobile, its highly likely they will opt for a high probe count + low base count and be aggressive on 2-3 bases.
I really don't know if this is true in BW. Using StarBow economy model with the same amount of worker count your opponent with 4 base would have close to double your 2 base economy. In any case it would mean BW Protoss units are very supply efficient on it's own.
Using StarBow economy model with the same amount of worker count your opponent with 4 base would have close to double your 2 base economy.
I am pretty sure that's not correct. Check out the below math and correct me if I am (completely) wrong anywhere in the proces.
As I remember it roughly, 9-16th worker average 60%. 0-8 = 100%. 17-28 = 40% (maybe this is too high, but changing it to 20% didn't really change that much around).
48 mineral mining workers on 2 base = 16*1+16*0.6+16*0.4= 32 48 workers on 3 base = 24*1+24*0.6 = 38.4 48 workers on 4 base = 32*1 +16*0.6 = 41.6
56 says mineral mining workers 16*1 + 16*0.6 + 24*0.4 = 35.2 56 workers on 3 base = 3*8*1 + 3*8*0.6 + 18*0.4 = 43.2 56 workers on 4 base = 4*8*1 + 24*0.6 +8*0.4 = 46.4 56 workers on 5 bases = 5*8 + 8*0.6 = 49.6
If you have 64 mineral mining workers on 2 base your income is: 16*1 + 16*0.6 + 24*0.4 = 35.2 64 workers on 3 base = 3*8*1 + 3*8*0.6 + 24*0.4 = 48 64 workers on 4 base = 4*8*1 + 32*0.6= 51.2 64 workers on 5 bases = 5*8*1 +24*0.6 = 54.4
In Sc2 its more like this: 100% for 0-16 and 30% for 17-20 (long patches). +21 = 0%.
56 workers on 2 base (Sc2) = 32*1 + 4*2*0.3 = 34.4 56 workers on 3 base (sc2) = 48* 1 + 8*0.3 = 50.4 56 workers on 4 base (sc2) =56*1 = 56 56 workers on 5 bases = 56.
(please correct me if my numbers are off).
TLDR: If the numbers are (roughly) correct, there isn't any real 4-to-3 base reward in the BW economy. Seems more like the reward is for 5 to 3 bases. SC2 econ also forces 3rd base much faster than in BW.
Nice but one small thing, mining is actually not linear in the first 16 workers per base. You'll notice there are 2 closer mineral patches, which are actually optimally harvested by only 2 workers. Therefore, the first 4 workers are more efficient than the next 12.
On April 14 2015 20:20 Apollys wrote: Nice but one small thing, mining is actually not linear in the first 16 workers per base. You'll notice there are 2 closer mineral patches, which are actually optimally harvested by only 2 workers. Therefore, the first 4 workers are more efficient than the next 12.
Nice ideas and analysis.
Yeh I knew it, and hence why I added 17-20 workers for Sc2, and I also recalculated the numbers when assuming differeneces between the first 16 workers as well. However, I didn't really get any signficiant differences in reward of taking extra bases, so I just simplified it a bit.
In the OP article it is written that there is a 7% increase in mineral income when going from 3 to 4 base in mineral income, while I ended up with roughly 10-11%. Wonder what is the the cause of the difference here, but regardless, I would have to be very wrong on the BW numbers for the 4-to-3 base economy reward being signifciantly higher in BW.
Anyway, the BW numbers are still interesting (assuming they are roughly correct) as they make it apparent that there isn't as high a reward for rushing to 3 bases or taking bases in a slow gradual manner. Rather you have two options:
(1) Stay on 2 bases for a long time and be aggressive (typically immobile race will do this) (2) Get to 5 bases as fast as possible (only mobile race can do this)
Ok. Having heard zeromus with Gretorp talk (late last night 5am or something for me ) I now I feel I have a better grip on what this proposal tries to accomplish, having said that I'll try to make a constructive counterpoint as to why I feel this kind of change isn't viable.
First, there are several reasons why blizzard increased worker efficiency to 22 per base (16 on min. 6 on gas) in no particular order here are some of the features of this decision I feel are key:
- army size management( by allocating many workers to each base it forces more food supply into the economy making the stable point between base count and army be very apparent and base count quite small, by keeping it small it helps viewers understand whats on the line).
- Very clear cost vs reward for viewers ( having so many workers means it takes a lot longer to replace, also after the replacement start, the time it takes to have full efficiency back is also a lot slower, after all it takes longer to replace 22 workers then 12 making harassment that much more obvious).
- Increases tension for viewers since there's more on the line ( by making the amount of mining bases any player has at any time no bigger than 3/4, it creates tension in several ways, first and foremost because when u loose one it's more important then if u had let's say 6, secondly it creates tension by creating very obvious points in time when expanding is essential, when one base runs out u need to have a replacement or your economy is going to crumble very fast).
- The mining doesn't disappear all at once ( by creating a point in time where the mining operation in one base is crippled it creates opportunity for casters to create tension, instead of just saying the minerals are almost over and that's it, they can easily comment on how it was crippled to 4 patches and later revisit that situation having several possible scenarios ie base replacement, the actual end of mining, worker transfers, etc...). [LotV feature]
Lastly but not least the main reason why I don't think Blizzard will ever be receptive to this kind of change.
The proposed system isn't a clear improvement on what they have, it simply tries to fix problems while opening others and at the same time requiring a massive restructure of supply costs across the board to maintain parity between army representation from HotS to LotV.
I hope it was not too long and any response will be very appreciated. Before I'm sold on this kind on system change this kinds of problems need to be addressed, it's easy to give a solution to problems we don't like , it's a lot harder to defend why their more important than the ones were creating.
Thanks a lot for reading.
PS: A special thanks to Zeromus for creating the article, I would very much like people like him to keep doing what they do, with which without we would never have so much healthy discussion. Also thanks to everybody else that contributed.
First, there are several reasons why blizzard increased worker efficiency to 22 per base (16 on min. 6 on gas) in no particular order here are some of the features of this decision I feel are key:
Mineral mining workers scaled much higher than that in BW. So are you specifically talking about 2 geysers here?
Very clear cost vs reward for viewers ( having so many workers means it takes a lot longer to replace, also after the replacement start, the time it takes to have full efficiency back is also a lot slower, after all it takes longer to replace 22 workers then 12 making harassment that much more obvious).
Viewers don't need to understand the exact number-value of the consequences. All they need to know is that when Hellions roste 12 drones its bad, and that is true regardless of the economy. I think your overanalyzing here. Whether its really really really bad or really really really really bad (4 vs 3 "really's") isn't paritcularly important for the average viewer.
army size management( by allocating many workers to each base it forces more food supply into the economy making the stable point between base count and army be very apparent and base count quite small, by keeping it small it helps viewers understand whats on the line).
Viewers understand what is on the line when base count is low? I don't see the logic, and Blizzard doesn't either given the changes to the LOTV economy.
Increases tension for viewers since there's more on the line ( by making the amount of mining bases any player has at any time no bigger than 3/4, it creates tension in several ways, first and foremost because when u loose one it's more important then if u had let's say 6,
Which is a bad thing since it increases the snowball effect. And again, i do think the average viewer does understand that when someone has 7 active bases, losing 1 base is less bad than someone with 2 active bases losing half their economy.
The mining doesn't disappear all at once ( by creating a point in time where the mining operation in one base is crippled it creates opportunity for casters to create tension, instead of just saying the minerals are almost over and that's it, they can easily comment on how it was crippled to 4 patches and later revisit that situation having several possible scenarios ie base replacement, the actual end of mining, worker transfers, etc...).
I don't understand what your talking about here.
TLDR: Your overanalyzing it here. There isn't any specific well thought out reason for why the current economy is structured the way it is. Its not intentional design and going into LOTV, Blizzard wanted an economic midel that rewarded more base-taking without changing everything else too much. Chances are that they also thought BW-economy was all about "more bases", which is a very unnuanced view.
Nice article, there`s nothing like the beauty of numbers.
Well, Lotv is the last chance for Blizzard to fix big flaws in the game design of SC2 and one of them is the economic model. The way they are trying to fix it sounds like a childish idea in comparison to the one described in the article.
Lets hope for the best and keep up the good work TL Strategy Team.
On April 14 2015 17:52 Teoita wrote: The same can be said about the LotV economy model though. Mules are annoying because the terran is on an even more brutal clock to expand, chrono is underwhelming, while larva inject+faster thirds give Zerg enormous freedom, and keep their own "expanding clock" from being as harsh as protoss or terran.
Reminds me of the old Day[9] Daily where you *need* to expand every 5 (10?) minutes as a special challenge ^^
I got double income cause I didn't do the math :p. Props to u for showing the work here. My point though is that sitting in 2 base is not going to be as viable given that SC2 has additional macro mechanics for all races but as Teoita put it, underwhelming for Protoss. And since this is true for the new LotV model as well, a change in the macro mechanics seems inevitable if any changes in econ model does go through. And I'm wondering what will that be.
I think you can get the same desired outcome of DH, with a simple
Efficiency System (per Base)(numbers are examples)
1-10 Worker: 105% 11 Worker: 103% 12 Worker: 100% 13 Worker 97% ... Every base has a efficiency multiplier (for Minerals) based on Workercount of this base. Also it can just use the Workercount display for example:
16/24 Worker 87% efficiency
How to implement "3% of 5 Minerals"? Just use a invisible account for "wasted" Minerals. If the Account reaches a full digit (or a half digit) the responsible worker returns 4 instead of 5. Or the player simply looses 1 Mineral
Pros
Avoids some problems with DH, like aesthetics (no worker chaos), a more stable solution (DH depends on a sweet spot in Worker AI, changes to movementspeed, mining time etc. have huge effects on DH) and is way more easier and finer to balance (change X_i's).
Mining curve can directly be modeled and fine tuned.
No changes to Worker AI
Easy to implement, Worker count is already calculated. Just needs a counter for wasted minerals and a check everytime a worker returns minerals
Simple and easy understandable for the player
Contra
Losing the "only 5 Mineral" income, which leads to nice numbers (but only until you repair or cancel something, so..)
Maybe there are some ways to exploit worker count display (but maybe there are also ways to exploit AI with DH)
While DH is way above the HotS curve a tax system would be below, but that could be handled by starting above 100%
Wasted minerals are lost
Propably more
Is it consistent with lore? If you think of the townhall of an ressource processing building it just has a limit of how much it can process. With more then 10 Workers it works on highspeed and isn't 100% effective anymore.
Why would you linked the tax system to worker count? Despite not making a lot of sense imo, you greatly benefit terran who can substitute scv's with mules.
What I'm saying is that you basically already have all the income you could possibly want in HotS model on just 3 bases already. When you already have all the income you want on so few bases, a little more income or a few less workers hardly justifies an investment in spreading yourself out even more
Which is why it is unlikely that you will opt to expand much faster if you play an immobile composition. For a mobile composition, it is different as it is easer to secure new expansions.
What I'm saying is that you basically already have all the income you could possibly want in HotS model on just 3 bases already. When you already have all the income you want on so few bases, a little more income or a few less workers hardly justifies an investment in spreading yourself out even more
Which is why it is unlikely that you will opt to expand much faster if you play an immobile composition. For a mobile composition, it is different as it is easer to secure new expansions.
As I've already mentioned in the hots patch thread, I think there is a second fundamental cause in the 3base play problem. Besides the fact that, as we are discussing in this thread, more than 3 bases doesn't add much to your economy.
The other problem is one of map control. Starcraft 2 is a very fast game. Every race has incredibly fast units that deal a lot of damage. This means that moving out of your base involves a lot of risk and is very dangerous. After all, if your opponent has the stronger and bigger army, you will get crushed very quickly and the enemy is at your doorstep in seconds, leaving you defenseless. You will never see people leaving their base, other than for a scout, a small harass group, a timing attack, or a 200/200 push. And with good reason, because anything else is simply too risky because it dies too fast. This is why deathballs are still so prevalent, moving out before 200/200 is risky because your opponents army might be bigger. If you move out at 200/200 you know that at least your army is of equal size.
Establishing any form of map control is extremely difficult for protoss and terran. You can clearly see it in pvt. The middle part of the map (between the bases) is a complete dead zone. Might as well be stamped with a big "DO NOT GO" sign.
Many people didn't like theDWF's post. But at least consider one point he makes. Everything in SC2 is hyperactive. From warpins to chronoboosts, to mules and stim, to injects and extra speed on creep. There is no room for being on the losing side of an engagement, because in 9/10 cases you will die immediately from the resulting push into your base.
On April 14 2015 17:52 Teoita wrote: The same can be said about the LotV economy model though. Mules are annoying because the terran is on an even more brutal clock to expand, chrono is underwhelming, while larva inject+faster thirds give Zerg enormous freedom, and keep their own "expanding clock" from being as harsh as protoss or terran.
I don't know if I agree on this, I agree that zerg might get a bit too strong since their hatch is cheap and it is also their production facility but I don't believe the macro mechanic would be the problem. You say chrono is underwhelming, it achives to a slight degree what zergs larva inject does increase worker amount early game at a more rapid speed than normal. You can also use it to go eco mode longer than you should be able too because you can take the necessary upgrades or units production later with the help of chrono boost.
Upgrades are the perfect example, take PvT, P can start their upgrades significantly later than T and instead focusing on economy (or if you so chose early aggression) and still be ahead in upgrades later on.
I believe the effect of chrono boost and how much freedom it gives to P in their build orders are greatly undervalued.
On April 14 2015 23:25 solidbebe wrote: Why would you linked the tax system to worker count? Despite not making a lot of sense imo, you greatly benefit terran who can substitute scv's with mules.
Why wouldn't you link it to supply like wc3?
No one wants upkeep. Or any sort of tax system. Its very unintuitive and won't help at all.
On April 14 2015 23:25 solidbebe wrote: Why would you linked the tax system to worker count? Despite not making a lot of sense imo, you greatly benefit terran who can substitute scv's with mules.
Why wouldn't you link it to supply like wc3?
No one wants upkeep. Or any sort of tax system. Its very unintuitive and won't help at all.
I'm not arguing for it necessarily. In fact I don't think it would fit starcraft. Though on the other hand, it might lead to more early skirmishes, who knows.
Regardless of that, I was more critisizing Apostremo's hypothetical implementation of a tax system, than suggesting it as a good idea.
A tax system would reduce strategic choice and variety in favor of forcing action. This article is about opening up strategic choice by not forcing expansion, so it isn't surprising the writers would be against it.
As I think TheDwf pointed out, the S in RTS is under attack here.
On April 14 2015 23:25 solidbebe wrote: Why would you linked the tax system to worker count? Despite not making a lot of sense imo, you greatly benefit terran who can substitute scv's with mules.
Why wouldn't you link it to supply like wc3?
Because the aim is to get a mining curve based on bases, so with the same global worker count on more bases you have an advantage. It tries to emulate the outcomes of the Double Harvesting not the Warcraft 3 Economy. And in Double Harvesting system Terran would have the same benefit. As was said in the OP of the thread, Race Balancing would be secundary balancing with a whole new ressource system.
On April 14 2015 23:32 Teoita wrote: Also that's way harder to implement in the editor than just tweaking a single variable
That's true, but on the other hand it's easy for Blizzard to implement. It's not an experiment like DH, so it's clear what happens gameplay wise. (But is not balanced of course.)
On April 14 2015 23:25 solidbebe wrote: Why would you linked the tax system to worker count? Despite not making a lot of sense imo, you greatly benefit terran who can substitute scv's with mules.
Why wouldn't you link it to supply like wc3?
No one wants upkeep. Or any sort of tax system. Its very unintuitive and won't help at all.
On April 15 2015 01:08 BronzeKnee wrote: A tax system would reduce strategic choice and variety in favor of forcing action. This article is about opening up strategic choice by not forcing expansion, so it isn't surprising the writers would be against it.
As I think TheDwf pointed out, the S in RTS is under attack here.
Either you didn't read my post or you didn't understand it. Because it has the exact same effects like Double Harvesting gameplay wise, while having more degrees of freedom and easier tuning for balancing. "tax" is just a name
Double Harvesting tries to indirectly generate a mining curve per base, why not directly implement it, without abusing flaws in the worker AI?
If you think the tax system forces the player to expand than Double Harvest would so too.
On April 14 2015 23:25 solidbebe wrote: Why would you linked the tax system to worker count? Despite not making a lot of sense imo, you greatly benefit terran who can substitute scv's with mules.
Why wouldn't you link it to supply like wc3?
Because the aim is to get a mining curve based on bases, so with the same global worker count on more bases you have an advantage. It tries to emulate the outcomes of the Double Harvesting not the Warcraft 3 Economy. And in Double Harvesting system Terran would have the same benefit. As was said in the OP of the thread, Race Balancing would be secundary balancing with a whole new ressource system.
On April 14 2015 23:32 Teoita wrote: Also that's way harder to implement in the editor than just tweaking a single variable
That's true, but on the other hand it's easy for Blizzard to implement. It's not an experiment like DH, so it's clear what happens gameplay wise. (But is not balanced of course.)
On April 14 2015 23:25 solidbebe wrote: Why would you linked the tax system to worker count? Despite not making a lot of sense imo, you greatly benefit terran who can substitute scv's with mules.
Why wouldn't you link it to supply like wc3?
No one wants upkeep. Or any sort of tax system. Its very unintuitive and won't help at all.
On April 15 2015 01:08 BronzeKnee wrote: A tax system would reduce strategic choice and variety in favor of forcing action. This article is about opening up strategic choice by not forcing expansion, so it isn't surprising the writers would be against it.
As I think TheDwf pointed out, the S in RTS is under attack here.
Either you didn't read my post or you didn't understand it. Because it has the exact same effects like Double Harvesting gameplay wise, while having more degrees of freedom and easier tuning for balancing. "tax" is just a name
Double Harvesting tries to indirectly generate a mining curve per base, why not directly implement it, without abusing flaws in the worker AI?
If you think the tax system forces the player to expand than Double Harvest would so too.
There is a big difference between decreasing the efficiency of workers as get more, and increasing the efficiency of workers as you get more bases.
'taxation' or whatever you want to call it is a global thing, so it's by definition not per base.
The first encourages you to stay on lower workers counts, the second simply encourages you to expand.
On April 14 2015 23:25 solidbebe wrote: Why would you linked the tax system to worker count? Despite not making a lot of sense imo, you greatly benefit terran who can substitute scv's with mules.
Why wouldn't you link it to supply like wc3?
Because the aim is to get a mining curve based on bases, so with the same global worker count on more bases you have an advantage. It tries to emulate the outcomes of the Double Harvesting not the Warcraft 3 Economy. And in Double Harvesting system Terran would have the same benefit. As was said in the OP of the thread, Race Balancing would be secundary balancing with a whole new ressource system.
On April 14 2015 23:32 Teoita wrote: Also that's way harder to implement in the editor than just tweaking a single variable
That's true, but on the other hand it's easy for Blizzard to implement. It's not an experiment like DH, so it's clear what happens gameplay wise. (But is not balanced of course.)
On April 15 2015 00:56 ZeromuS wrote:
On April 14 2015 23:25 solidbebe wrote: Why would you linked the tax system to worker count? Despite not making a lot of sense imo, you greatly benefit terran who can substitute scv's with mules.
Why wouldn't you link it to supply like wc3?
No one wants upkeep. Or any sort of tax system. Its very unintuitive and won't help at all.
On April 15 2015 01:08 BronzeKnee wrote: A tax system would reduce strategic choice and variety in favor of forcing action. This article is about opening up strategic choice by not forcing expansion, so it isn't surprising the writers would be against it.
As I think TheDwf pointed out, the S in RTS is under attack here.
Either you didn't read my post or you didn't understand it. Because it has the exact same effects like Double Harvesting gameplay wise, while having more degrees of freedom and easier tuning for balancing. "tax" is just a name
Double Harvesting tries to indirectly generate a mining curve per base, why not directly implement it, without abusing flaws in the worker AI?
If you think the tax system forces the player to expand than Double Harvest would so too.
There is a big difference between decreasing the efficiency of workers as get more, and increasing the efficiency of workers as you get more bases.
'taxation' or whatever you want to call it is a global thing, so it's by definition not per base.
The first encourages you to stay on lower workers counts, the second simply encourages you to expand.
Forget taxation, because i defined it explicitly as "per base". You're right but the system is flexible it doesn't necessary stay below the HotS curve at all.
Another number example without decreasing efficiency. It could be balanced around 14 Worker for example: Say you have 2 Hatches and 14 Workers.
Case 1 You have 14 Worker at your main. The Main displays
14/24 Worker 100% efficiency
Case 2 You split your 14 Worker to 7 workers each Hatch. Both Hatcheries display now
7/24 Worker 105% efficiency
The system internally increases worker effeciency, without abusing worker Ai, has easy feedback to the player (so newbies understand while 24 Worker per base is bad)
On April 14 2015 23:25 solidbebe wrote: Why would you linked the tax system to worker count? Despite not making a lot of sense imo, you greatly benefit terran who can substitute scv's with mules.
Why wouldn't you link it to supply like wc3?
Because the aim is to get a mining curve based on bases, so with the same global worker count on more bases you have an advantage. It tries to emulate the outcomes of the Double Harvesting not the Warcraft 3 Economy. And in Double Harvesting system Terran would have the same benefit. As was said in the OP of the thread, Race Balancing would be secundary balancing with a whole new ressource system.
On April 14 2015 23:32 Teoita wrote: Also that's way harder to implement in the editor than just tweaking a single variable
That's true, but on the other hand it's easy for Blizzard to implement. It's not an experiment like DH, so it's clear what happens gameplay wise. (But is not balanced of course.)
On April 15 2015 00:56 ZeromuS wrote:
On April 14 2015 23:25 solidbebe wrote: Why would you linked the tax system to worker count? Despite not making a lot of sense imo, you greatly benefit terran who can substitute scv's with mules.
Why wouldn't you link it to supply like wc3?
No one wants upkeep. Or any sort of tax system. Its very unintuitive and won't help at all.
On April 15 2015 01:08 BronzeKnee wrote: A tax system would reduce strategic choice and variety in favor of forcing action. This article is about opening up strategic choice by not forcing expansion, so it isn't surprising the writers would be against it.
As I think TheDwf pointed out, the S in RTS is under attack here.
Either you didn't read my post or you didn't understand it. Because it has the exact same effects like Double Harvesting gameplay wise, while having more degrees of freedom and easier tuning for balancing. "tax" is just a name
Double Harvesting tries to indirectly generate a mining curve per base, why not directly implement it, without abusing flaws in the worker AI?
If you think the tax system forces the player to expand than Double Harvest would so too.
There is a big difference between decreasing the efficiency of workers as get more, and increasing the efficiency of workers as you get more bases.
'taxation' or whatever you want to call it is a global thing, so it's by definition not per base.
The first encourages you to stay on lower workers counts, the second simply encourages you to expand.
Forget taxation, because i defined it explicitly as "per base". You're right but the system is flexible it doesn't necessary stay below the HotS curve at all. Another number example without decreasing efficiency: Say you have 2 Hatches and 14 Workers. Case 1 You have 14 Worker at your main. The Main displays
I missed the per base part in your first post, my mistake.
If it is per base, then as far as I see it your suggestion amounts to pretty much the same thing as ZeromuS'. The main difference would be that you actually lose money in your suggestion by oversaturating. In double harvesting you only lose efficiency when oversaturating. So your suggestion is more punishing in that regard.
On April 14 2015 21:08 Bazik wrote: Ok. Having heard zeromus with Gretorp talk (late last night 5am or something for me ) I now I feel I have a better grip on what this proposal tries to accomplish, having said that I'll try to make a constructive counterpoint as to why I feel this kind of change isn't viable.
First, there are several reasons why blizzard increased worker efficiency to 22 per base (16 on min. 6 on gas) in no particular order here are some of the features of this decision I feel are key:
- army size management( by allocating many workers to each base it forces more food supply into the economy making the stable point between base count and army be very apparent and base count quite small, by keeping it small it helps viewers understand whats on the line).
Keeping it small reduces the importance of bases for players though. And above all else this is a game people want to play. Not just watch. I think any time you use the "for a viewers" approach you are putting the spectating experience above that of the people who are playing. Which is IMO wrong.
While SC2 might have the best specator interface, this doesn't matter if people don't enjoy playing the game as much, a point i will come back to later.
The stable point between base count and army should also not be "the same" for every race. I believe part of the reason people say Zerg doesn't feel as Zergy as it did in SC1/BW isn't in the supply of units, but in the fact that the race is encourage to expand early but less often than in the past. The vast network of hatcheries looming for the opponent is disincetivized by the relative lack of reward for the risk of mass expanding. Some of what defines Zerg is no longer there, and we are replacing the "mass of units" feel with things like swarmhosts (or they did in hots beta).
- Very clear cost vs reward for viewers ( having so many workers means it takes a lot longer to replace, also after the replacement start, the time it takes to have full efficiency back is also a lot slower, after all it takes longer to replace 22 workers then 12 making harassment that much more obvious).
Again Viewers vs players and their experiences.
On the topic of "full efficiency" i've noticed a lot of misconceptions here.
There are two types of efficiency when it comes to income in scII.
1) Base efficiency - how much a base is able to make compared to its theoretical maximum
2) worker efficiency - how many minerals a minute a worker is able to return compared to its theoretical maximum
Our model doesn't change Base efficiency at all. 24 workers remains the theoretical max, 16 remains the "soft cap" (where the income after the 16th dude is almost negligible up to 24), and adds a new efficiency ideal of spreading your workers out as much as possible.
Worker efficiency changes a lot. You begin to see diminishing returns on the 9th worker, and an overall bump in economy from workers 1-8 which means that you have the choice of keeping workers safe and mining less or putting them at risk at other expansions and mining more.
So to be clear - no one will be cutting workers at 8 on a base. Ever. 8 is still 40% less income than 16. The difference will be that when you get a new base you dont just keep 16 in the main and rally new workers down. You actually need to send the workers down to make more money and put them at risk of early harass timings.
If your opponent can force you to keep the workers in the main (due to fast hellions, lings etc) then they have excercised some form of strategy to reduce your mining time while they expand or tech or whatever.
- Increases tension for viewers since there's more on the line ( by making the amount of mining bases any player has at any time no bigger than 3/4, it creates tension in several ways, first and foremost because when u loose one it's more important then if u had let's say 6, secondly it creates tension by creating very obvious points in time when expanding is essential, when one base runs out u need to have a replacement or your economy is going to crumble very fast).
Again, concerns with viewers.
However, in this case I feel that the model we propose offers MORE for viewers.
Players will be spread more which means multipronged attacks are more powerful and this benefits players who are able to multitask (fun to do AND watch - think MMA, Polt, Maru, Life, Liquid`HerO, classic).
keep in mind most players will not have more than 3/4 bases other than zergs who might have 4/5. As the meta develops I hope that higher basecounts become points of contention at first for workers, later for buildings. But by spreading out more you need to defend the tech buildings and your latest expansions. But losing those latest expansions is less punishing and less snowbally.
We want there to be back and forth in the game. We think that the snowball nature of 3 base is one thing, and that the snowball nature of losing a base (with super mined out other bases) will be an issue but on the other end of the spectrum.
Losing a third or a 4th is far more punishing in LotV than HotS, and thats an issue for "snowballs" and comebacks.
You shift the power of coming back in the game away from making good positional plays and engagements to being in the hands of very few power units (like the disruptor) to get a major hit. And I think that while exciting, it changes the dynamic of "how will i come back?" from "let me try to outplay my opponent through harassing him or trading cost efficiently" to "I hope hes not paying attention and I kill a ton of mutas with this mine" or "lets hope he doesnt split those 30 roaches so I can kill them with my disruptor" or "come on hero ultralisk vs marines!"
- The mining doesn't disappear all at once ( by creating a point in time where the mining operation in one base is crippled it creates opportunity for casters to create tension, instead of just saying the minerals are almost over and that's it, they can easily comment on how it was crippled to 4 patches and later revisit that situation having several possible scenarios ie base replacement, the actual end of mining, worker transfers, etc...). [LotV feature]
I think casters do a very good job of pointing out how bases are becoming low on minerals during the game. If its an issue with visibility of mining out I think there are a lot of ways that this can be addressed by Gameheart for example or the Blizz team and the old GH developer (sorry i forget your name!). You could have minerals on the minimap show a different colour or alert whenever they reach 300 or less minerals (so casters are alerted to it as are viewers and then casters can comment on it).
Again, i think if you take away gameplay options or impact them heavier in the interest of viewership but not players is a bad way to go, and I cannot agree with putting the experience of a spectator over the experience of a player on a very fundamental level. Sure many people like to watch starcraft and not play it, but its much easier to get people to watch when they already play, and getting people to watch should encourage people to buy and play the game as well. If the experience is frustrating, too quick, or punishing to the new players, we won't see a growth in StarCraft, at all.
I also think ceasing mining all at once on one base is a better solution than crippling it part way through. You have more TIME to plan ahead and decide HOW you want to secure the third if your entire mineral line goes out at once and your income is consistent from start to finish.
The other issue I have is that by reducing income on a base, you are really disincentivized from taking a fight in the middle of the map. Basically, the player who has the base secured or running is really rewarded for being on the map, and the player who doesnt have the base cannot be on the map. I am afraid that this kind of "I need a lot at home to hold my third" mentality is going to encourage turtling with less overall income, as opposed to harassing the opponent to slow them down.
Once you get an economic advantage it becomes an extremely powerful tool in LotV and I think that once people learn how to fully leverage this advantage into denying opponent third bases or slowing down their ability to take a third you will see a lot of problems crop up in LotV.
The game encourages early, high impact, high mobility units and punishes players who cant get them. A couple of cyclones and ravagers are perfect examples of high impact early units to exert map control and secure the win from a very early timing. Especially against protoss who are struggling the most right now because they do not have high impact, high mobility early units that allow them to take a fast third and hold it well. Unless you make protoss units stronger and better able to contest the map and play from an economic disadvantage (due to half patches mining out) I am not sure how you can get them to work in LotV :/
And if you make protoss units super high impact but take longer to get then you open up a whole other can of worms.
The reason mech feels the economy pinch less is because of the cyclone being so high impact, if it wasn't for the cyclone terran would be facing many of the same problems protoss is right now. And if players skip cyclones, or get too few and protoss gets blink and denies the T third, then T can't do much to come back in the game against the high mobility/efficiency of blink stalkers and 3 bases of protoss.
Lastly but not least the main reason why I don't think Blizzard will ever be receptive to this kind of change.
The proposed system isn't a clear improvement on what they have, it simply tries to fix problems while opening others and at the same time requiring a massive restructure of supply costs across the board to maintain parity between army representation from HotS to LotV.
I don't think you need a massive restructuring of supply costs at all in the double harvest model.
If anything I think you need to do LESS overall balancing with double harvest than the current LotV model because players will have the option of obtaining higher tier gas units on fewer bases to combat high base counts and contest map control while having additional minerals for mineral based harass through marines, hellions (a big bonus to mech compared to bio play here), zerglings with speed, warp prisms etc.
I think that LotV favours lower tech high impact units so much more than HotS that you need to rebalance everything around the mid game in the current model. You need Stakers to contest the map more effectively vs ravagers and lings and roach and hydra to hold a third base. You need to have high impact units exist to swing fights into the defenders favour since they cannot lose their army due to their own resources depleting faster. You need to change tech timings so that upgrades finish at a time that is more compatible with the state of the game. Getting stim to hold a third for example might be important but if you sacrifice the half patches in the main to get there is it really worth it?
I think because the consistent income is similar to HotS you can do some of the same basic strategies if you so choose, and learn they no longer work because the opponent sets the pace through their expansion.
I think that having a base mine out at a standard, consistent rate over the same period of time without half patches is going to be much more palatable to the casual 1v1 low level player who wants to focus on "base management" and sim city. I know lots of people who enjoy making tanks and turrets in bronze/silver because they find it fun. When you force them to have to move around the map more and not in a "im gonna drop!" kind of way but in a "oh I dont have the minerals left to do what I find fun" kind of way you take what they like about the game away from them in the name of "viewership" and "preventing turtling".
But in my opinion, from the beginning, turtling should be solved through tools offered to the players not through forcing a "meta-game" through game design upon them.
I hope it was not too long and any response will be very appreciated. Before I'm sold on this kind on system change this kinds of problems need to be addressed, it's easy to give a solution to problems we don't like , it's a lot harder to defend why their more important than the ones were creating.
Thanks a lot for reading.
PS: A special thanks to Zeromus for creating the article, I would very much like people like him to keep doing what they do, with which without we would never have so much healthy discussion. Also thanks to everybody else that contributed.
Bazik (Zerodai on twitch)
I've seen lots of people with similar concerns so I don't mind taking the time to read and answer them when they are presented in a respectful manner
On April 14 2015 23:25 solidbebe wrote: Why would you linked the tax system to worker count? Despite not making a lot of sense imo, you greatly benefit terran who can substitute scv's with mules.
Why wouldn't you link it to supply like wc3?
Because the aim is to get a mining curve based on bases, so with the same global worker count on more bases you have an advantage. It tries to emulate the outcomes of the Double Harvesting not the Warcraft 3 Economy. And in Double Harvesting system Terran would have the same benefit. As was said in the OP of the thread, Race Balancing would be secundary balancing with a whole new ressource system.
On April 14 2015 23:32 Teoita wrote: Also that's way harder to implement in the editor than just tweaking a single variable
That's true, but on the other hand it's easy for Blizzard to implement. It's not an experiment like DH, so it's clear what happens gameplay wise. (But is not balanced of course.)
On April 15 2015 00:56 ZeromuS wrote:
On April 14 2015 23:25 solidbebe wrote: Why would you linked the tax system to worker count? Despite not making a lot of sense imo, you greatly benefit terran who can substitute scv's with mules.
Why wouldn't you link it to supply like wc3?
No one wants upkeep. Or any sort of tax system. Its very unintuitive and won't help at all.
On April 15 2015 01:08 BronzeKnee wrote: A tax system would reduce strategic choice and variety in favor of forcing action. This article is about opening up strategic choice by not forcing expansion, so it isn't surprising the writers would be against it.
As I think TheDwf pointed out, the S in RTS is under attack here.
Either you didn't read my post or you didn't understand it. Because it has the exact same effects like Double Harvesting gameplay wise, while having more degrees of freedom and easier tuning for balancing. "tax" is just a name
Double Harvesting tries to indirectly generate a mining curve per base, why not directly implement it, without abusing flaws in the worker AI?
If you think the tax system forces the player to expand than Double Harvest would so too.
There is a big difference between decreasing the efficiency of workers as get more, and increasing the efficiency of workers as you get more bases.
'taxation' or whatever you want to call it is a global thing, so it's by definition not per base.
The first encourages you to stay on lower workers counts, the second simply encourages you to expand.
Forget taxation, because i defined it explicitly as "per base". You're right but the system is flexible it doesn't necessary stay below the HotS curve at all. Another number example without decreasing efficiency: Say you have 2 Hatches and 14 Workers. Case 1 You have 14 Worker at your main. The Main displays
14/24 Worker 100% efficiency
Case 2 You split your 14 Worker to 7 workers each Hatch. Both Hatcheries display now
7/24 Worker 105% efficiency
I missed the per base part in your first post, my mistake.
If it is per base, then as far as I see it your suggestion amounts to pretty much the same thing as ZeromuS'. The main difference would be that you actually lose money in your suggestion by oversaturating. In double harvesting you only lose efficiency when oversaturating. So your suggestion is more punishing in that regard.
Yeah right because that was my goal. It's still his idea and reasons behind it. I only tried a different aproach after reading his. Losing effeciency is the same as losing money though. The difference is DH starts at higher base rate. The same could be achieved by giving a efficiency boost for under 8 Worker per base (105% for example)
On April 14 2015 23:25 solidbebe wrote: Why would you linked the tax system to worker count? Despite not making a lot of sense imo, you greatly benefit terran who can substitute scv's with mules.
Why wouldn't you link it to supply like wc3?
Because the aim is to get a mining curve based on bases, so with the same global worker count on more bases you have an advantage. It tries to emulate the outcomes of the Double Harvesting not the Warcraft 3 Economy. And in Double Harvesting system Terran would have the same benefit. As was said in the OP of the thread, Race Balancing would be secundary balancing with a whole new ressource system.
On April 14 2015 23:32 Teoita wrote: Also that's way harder to implement in the editor than just tweaking a single variable
That's true, but on the other hand it's easy for Blizzard to implement. It's not an experiment like DH, so it's clear what happens gameplay wise. (But is not balanced of course.)
On April 15 2015 00:56 ZeromuS wrote:
On April 14 2015 23:25 solidbebe wrote: Why would you linked the tax system to worker count? Despite not making a lot of sense imo, you greatly benefit terran who can substitute scv's with mules.
Why wouldn't you link it to supply like wc3?
No one wants upkeep. Or any sort of tax system. Its very unintuitive and won't help at all.
On April 15 2015 01:08 BronzeKnee wrote: A tax system would reduce strategic choice and variety in favor of forcing action. This article is about opening up strategic choice by not forcing expansion, so it isn't surprising the writers would be against it.
As I think TheDwf pointed out, the S in RTS is under attack here.
Either you didn't read my post or you didn't understand it. Because it has the exact same effects like Double Harvesting gameplay wise, while having more degrees of freedom and easier tuning for balancing. "tax" is just a name
Double Harvesting tries to indirectly generate a mining curve per base, why not directly implement it, without abusing flaws in the worker AI?
If you think the tax system forces the player to expand than Double Harvest would so too.
There is a big difference between decreasing the efficiency of workers as get more, and increasing the efficiency of workers as you get more bases.
'taxation' or whatever you want to call it is a global thing, so it's by definition not per base.
The first encourages you to stay on lower workers counts, the second simply encourages you to expand.
Forget taxation, because i defined it explicitly as "per base". You're right but the system is flexible it doesn't necessary stay below the HotS curve at all. Another number example without decreasing efficiency: Say you have 2 Hatches and 14 Workers. Case 1 You have 14 Worker at your main. The Main displays
14/24 Worker 100% efficiency
Case 2 You split your 14 Worker to 7 workers each Hatch. Both Hatcheries display now
7/24 Worker 105% efficiency
I missed the per base part in your first post, my mistake.
If it is per base, then as far as I see it your suggestion amounts to pretty much the same thing as ZeromuS'. The main difference would be that you actually lose money in your suggestion by oversaturating. In double harvesting you only lose efficiency when oversaturating. So your suggestion is more punishing in that regard.
Yeah right because that was my goal. It's still his idea and reasons behind it. I only tried a different aproach after reading his. Losing effeciency is the same as losing money though. The difference is DH starts at higher base rate. The same could be achieved by giving a efficiency boost for under 8 Worker per base (105% for example)
I think the goal is to have efficiencies as you spread out though, and that the option of making a lot of workers on bases should still be viable.
so long as the curve remains similar to hots in the breakpoints of 16 and 24 I would be all up for trying it. I just feel like the change we offered is a lot simpler and is more in line with what we currently have from the perspective of seeing it happen.
Its also something we as a community can easily implement and test without waiting for a big complicated mod or AI changes etc. I don't think the editor is currently set up in such a way to do what you offered, because the mineral patch as an actor in the game determines how many minerals are obtained from it, not the worker.
So you would need to have the patch do some sort of calculation on how many workers are tied to it and even then you would need to remove bouncing for 3 workers if you want to have a 24 worker cap, because otherwise the calculations go out the window.
Also everything is already done on a 1:1 (worker patch) in terms of the calculations. Pairing just happens because workers wait 1 second to begin their paired harvest cycle at the patch. Calculations aren't done on a X workers per 8 patch field level of calculations.
so you can see how it actually becomes extremely complicated to implement your idea without more dedicated map editors who know the mod making system inside and out. Your approach is closer to a full rework from a ground up implementation perspective than ours is (lalush changed one action trigger/value).
On April 14 2015 23:25 solidbebe wrote: Why would you linked the tax system to worker count? Despite not making a lot of sense imo, you greatly benefit terran who can substitute scv's with mules.
Why wouldn't you link it to supply like wc3?
Because the aim is to get a mining curve based on bases, so with the same global worker count on more bases you have an advantage. It tries to emulate the outcomes of the Double Harvesting not the Warcraft 3 Economy. And in Double Harvesting system Terran would have the same benefit. As was said in the OP of the thread, Race Balancing would be secundary balancing with a whole new ressource system.
On April 14 2015 23:32 Teoita wrote: Also that's way harder to implement in the editor than just tweaking a single variable
That's true, but on the other hand it's easy for Blizzard to implement. It's not an experiment like DH, so it's clear what happens gameplay wise. (But is not balanced of course.)
On April 15 2015 00:56 ZeromuS wrote:
On April 14 2015 23:25 solidbebe wrote: Why would you linked the tax system to worker count? Despite not making a lot of sense imo, you greatly benefit terran who can substitute scv's with mules.
Why wouldn't you link it to supply like wc3?
No one wants upkeep. Or any sort of tax system. Its very unintuitive and won't help at all.
On April 15 2015 01:08 BronzeKnee wrote: A tax system would reduce strategic choice and variety in favor of forcing action. This article is about opening up strategic choice by not forcing expansion, so it isn't surprising the writers would be against it.
As I think TheDwf pointed out, the S in RTS is under attack here.
Either you didn't read my post or you didn't understand it. Because it has the exact same effects like Double Harvesting gameplay wise, while having more degrees of freedom and easier tuning for balancing. "tax" is just a name
Double Harvesting tries to indirectly generate a mining curve per base, why not directly implement it, without abusing flaws in the worker AI?
If you think the tax system forces the player to expand than Double Harvest would so too.
There is a big difference between decreasing the efficiency of workers as get more, and increasing the efficiency of workers as you get more bases.
'taxation' or whatever you want to call it is a global thing, so it's by definition not per base.
The first encourages you to stay on lower workers counts, the second simply encourages you to expand.
Forget taxation, because i defined it explicitly as "per base". You're right but the system is flexible it doesn't necessary stay below the HotS curve at all. Another number example without decreasing efficiency: Say you have 2 Hatches and 14 Workers. Case 1 You have 14 Worker at your main. The Main displays
14/24 Worker 100% efficiency
Case 2 You split your 14 Worker to 7 workers each Hatch. Both Hatcheries display now
7/24 Worker 105% efficiency
I missed the per base part in your first post, my mistake.
If it is per base, then as far as I see it your suggestion amounts to pretty much the same thing as ZeromuS'. The main difference would be that you actually lose money in your suggestion by oversaturating. In double harvesting you only lose efficiency when oversaturating. So your suggestion is more punishing in that regard.
Yeah right because that was my goal. It's still his idea and reasons behind it. I only tried a different aproach after reading his. Losing effeciency is the same as losing money though. The difference is DH starts at higher base rate. The same could be achieved by giving a efficiency boost for under 8 Worker per base (105% for example)
I disagree that losing minerals equates to losing efficiency. Thats only the case if you assume there are infinite resources in a map, but there arent. In some games maps get mined out completely, thats where the tax takes a big toll, by having the decreased the maximum possible available minerals.
On April 14 2015 17:52 Teoita wrote: The same can be said about the LotV economy model though. Mules are annoying because the terran is on an even more brutal clock to expand, chrono is underwhelming, while larva inject+faster thirds give Zerg enormous freedom, and keep their own "expanding clock" from being as harsh as protoss or terran.
I don't know if I agree on this, I agree that zerg might get a bit too strong since their hatch is cheap and it is also their production facility but I don't believe the macro mechanic would be the problem. You say chrono is underwhelming, it achives to a slight degree what zergs larva inject does increase worker amount early game at a more rapid speed than normal. You can also use it to go eco mode longer than you should be able too because you can take the necessary upgrades or units production later with the help of chrono boost.
Upgrades are the perfect example, take PvT, P can start their upgrades significantly later than T and instead focusing on economy (or if you so chose early aggression) and still be ahead in upgrades later on.
I believe the effect of chrono boost and how much freedom it gives to P in their build orders are greatly undervalued.
It's not undervalued, it is useful, but I actually did calculations for this paper that were left out due to brevity on the rate of return for a new expansion in the system, which assumed full chrono boost on probes (which is obviously not always going to be the case because you often want to chrono boost something else), and zerg and terran both had protoss beaten on rate of return.
On April 14 2015 23:25 solidbebe wrote: Why would you linked the tax system to worker count? Despite not making a lot of sense imo, you greatly benefit terran who can substitute scv's with mules.
Why wouldn't you link it to supply like wc3?
Because the aim is to get a mining curve based on bases, so with the same global worker count on more bases you have an advantage. It tries to emulate the outcomes of the Double Harvesting not the Warcraft 3 Economy. And in Double Harvesting system Terran would have the same benefit. As was said in the OP of the thread, Race Balancing would be secundary balancing with a whole new ressource system.
On April 14 2015 23:32 Teoita wrote: Also that's way harder to implement in the editor than just tweaking a single variable
That's true, but on the other hand it's easy for Blizzard to implement. It's not an experiment like DH, so it's clear what happens gameplay wise. (But is not balanced of course.)
On April 15 2015 00:56 ZeromuS wrote:
On April 14 2015 23:25 solidbebe wrote: Why would you linked the tax system to worker count? Despite not making a lot of sense imo, you greatly benefit terran who can substitute scv's with mules.
Why wouldn't you link it to supply like wc3?
No one wants upkeep. Or any sort of tax system. Its very unintuitive and won't help at all.
On April 15 2015 01:08 BronzeKnee wrote: A tax system would reduce strategic choice and variety in favor of forcing action. This article is about opening up strategic choice by not forcing expansion, so it isn't surprising the writers would be against it.
As I think TheDwf pointed out, the S in RTS is under attack here.
Either you didn't read my post or you didn't understand it. Because it has the exact same effects like Double Harvesting gameplay wise, while having more degrees of freedom and easier tuning for balancing. "tax" is just a name
Double Harvesting tries to indirectly generate a mining curve per base, why not directly implement it, without abusing flaws in the worker AI?
If you think the tax system forces the player to expand than Double Harvest would so too.
There is a big difference between decreasing the efficiency of workers as get more, and increasing the efficiency of workers as you get more bases.
'taxation' or whatever you want to call it is a global thing, so it's by definition not per base.
The first encourages you to stay on lower workers counts, the second simply encourages you to expand.
Forget taxation, because i defined it explicitly as "per base". You're right but the system is flexible it doesn't necessary stay below the HotS curve at all. Another number example without decreasing efficiency: Say you have 2 Hatches and 14 Workers. Case 1 You have 14 Worker at your main. The Main displays
14/24 Worker 100% efficiency
Case 2 You split your 14 Worker to 7 workers each Hatch. Both Hatcheries display now
7/24 Worker 105% efficiency
I missed the per base part in your first post, my mistake.
If it is per base, then as far as I see it your suggestion amounts to pretty much the same thing as ZeromuS'. The main difference would be that you actually lose money in your suggestion by oversaturating. In double harvesting you only lose efficiency when oversaturating. So your suggestion is more punishing in that regard.
Yeah right because that was my goal. It's still his idea and reasons behind it. I only tried a different aproach after reading his. Losing effeciency is the same as losing money though. The difference is DH starts at higher base rate. The same could be achieved by giving a efficiency boost for under 8 Worker per base (105% for example)
I think the goal is to have efficiencies as you spread out though, and that the option of making a lot of workers on bases should still be viable.
so long as the curve remains similar to hots in the breakpoints of 16 and 24 I would be all up for trying it. I just feel like the change we offered is a lot simpler and is more in line with what we currently have from the perspective of seeing it happen.
Its also something we as a community can easily implement and test without waiting for a big complicated mod or AI changes etc. I don't think the editor is currently set up in such a way to do what you offered, because the mineral patch as an actor in the game determines how many minerals are obtained from it, not the worker.
So you would need to have the patch do some sort of calculation on how many workers are tied to it and even then you would need to remove bouncing for 3 workers if you want to have a 24 worker cap, because otherwise the calculations go out the window.
Also everything is already done on a 1:1 (worker patch) in terms of the calculations. Pairing just happens because workers wait 1 second to begin their paired harvest cycle at the patch. Calculations aren't done on a X workers per 8 patch field level of calculations.
so you can see how it actually becomes extremely complicated to implement your idea without more dedicated map editors who know the mod making system inside and out. Your approach is closer to a full rework from a ground up implementation perspective than ours is (lalush changed one action trigger/value).
You're right, from a community driven perspective DH is way easier to implement of course. I still dreaming about Blizzard taking bold steps with LotV, but thats propably a dream.
On April 14 2015 23:25 solidbebe wrote: Why would you linked the tax system to worker count? Despite not making a lot of sense imo, you greatly benefit terran who can substitute scv's with mules.
Why wouldn't you link it to supply like wc3?
Because the aim is to get a mining curve based on bases, so with the same global worker count on more bases you have an advantage. It tries to emulate the outcomes of the Double Harvesting not the Warcraft 3 Economy. And in Double Harvesting system Terran would have the same benefit. As was said in the OP of the thread, Race Balancing would be secundary balancing with a whole new ressource system.
On April 14 2015 23:32 Teoita wrote: Also that's way harder to implement in the editor than just tweaking a single variable
That's true, but on the other hand it's easy for Blizzard to implement. It's not an experiment like DH, so it's clear what happens gameplay wise. (But is not balanced of course.)
On April 15 2015 00:56 ZeromuS wrote:
On April 14 2015 23:25 solidbebe wrote: Why would you linked the tax system to worker count? Despite not making a lot of sense imo, you greatly benefit terran who can substitute scv's with mules.
Why wouldn't you link it to supply like wc3?
No one wants upkeep. Or any sort of tax system. Its very unintuitive and won't help at all.
On April 15 2015 01:08 BronzeKnee wrote: A tax system would reduce strategic choice and variety in favor of forcing action. This article is about opening up strategic choice by not forcing expansion, so it isn't surprising the writers would be against it.
As I think TheDwf pointed out, the S in RTS is under attack here.
Either you didn't read my post or you didn't understand it. Because it has the exact same effects like Double Harvesting gameplay wise, while having more degrees of freedom and easier tuning for balancing. "tax" is just a name
Double Harvesting tries to indirectly generate a mining curve per base, why not directly implement it, without abusing flaws in the worker AI?
If you think the tax system forces the player to expand than Double Harvest would so too.
There is a big difference between decreasing the efficiency of workers as get more, and increasing the efficiency of workers as you get more bases.
'taxation' or whatever you want to call it is a global thing, so it's by definition not per base.
The first encourages you to stay on lower workers counts, the second simply encourages you to expand.
Forget taxation, because i defined it explicitly as "per base". You're right but the system is flexible it doesn't necessary stay below the HotS curve at all. Another number example without decreasing efficiency: Say you have 2 Hatches and 14 Workers. Case 1 You have 14 Worker at your main. The Main displays
14/24 Worker 100% efficiency
Case 2 You split your 14 Worker to 7 workers each Hatch. Both Hatcheries display now
7/24 Worker 105% efficiency
I missed the per base part in your first post, my mistake.
If it is per base, then as far as I see it your suggestion amounts to pretty much the same thing as ZeromuS'. The main difference would be that you actually lose money in your suggestion by oversaturating. In double harvesting you only lose efficiency when oversaturating. So your suggestion is more punishing in that regard.
Yeah right because that was my goal. It's still his idea and reasons behind it. I only tried a different aproach after reading his. Losing effeciency is the same as losing money though. The difference is DH starts at higher base rate. The same could be achieved by giving a efficiency boost for under 8 Worker per base (105% for example)
I disagree that losing minerals equates to losing efficiency. Thats only the case if you assume there are infinite resources in a map, but there arent. In some games maps get mined out completely, thats where the tax takes a big toll, by having the decreased the maximum possible available minerals.
Okay sorry now i understand what you meant. You're right, thats a point i didn't think about. If both players mine out half the map, the player with more spread out workers gets another advantage by higher overall minerals.
On April 14 2015 23:25 solidbebe wrote: Why would you linked the tax system to worker count? Despite not making a lot of sense imo, you greatly benefit terran who can substitute scv's with mules.
Why wouldn't you link it to supply like wc3?
Because the aim is to get a mining curve based on bases, so with the same global worker count on more bases you have an advantage. It tries to emulate the outcomes of the Double Harvesting not the Warcraft 3 Economy. And in Double Harvesting system Terran would have the same benefit. As was said in the OP of the thread, Race Balancing would be secundary balancing with a whole new ressource system.
On April 14 2015 23:32 Teoita wrote: Also that's way harder to implement in the editor than just tweaking a single variable
That's true, but on the other hand it's easy for Blizzard to implement. It's not an experiment like DH, so it's clear what happens gameplay wise. (But is not balanced of course.)
On April 15 2015 00:56 ZeromuS wrote:
On April 14 2015 23:25 solidbebe wrote: Why would you linked the tax system to worker count? Despite not making a lot of sense imo, you greatly benefit terran who can substitute scv's with mules.
Why wouldn't you link it to supply like wc3?
No one wants upkeep. Or any sort of tax system. Its very unintuitive and won't help at all.
On April 15 2015 01:08 BronzeKnee wrote: A tax system would reduce strategic choice and variety in favor of forcing action. This article is about opening up strategic choice by not forcing expansion, so it isn't surprising the writers would be against it.
As I think TheDwf pointed out, the S in RTS is under attack here.
Either you didn't read my post or you didn't understand it. Because it has the exact same effects like Double Harvesting gameplay wise, while having more degrees of freedom and easier tuning for balancing. "tax" is just a name
Double Harvesting tries to indirectly generate a mining curve per base, why not directly implement it, without abusing flaws in the worker AI?
If you think the tax system forces the player to expand than Double Harvest would so too.
There is a big difference between decreasing the efficiency of workers as get more, and increasing the efficiency of workers as you get more bases.
'taxation' or whatever you want to call it is a global thing, so it's by definition not per base.
The first encourages you to stay on lower workers counts, the second simply encourages you to expand.
Forget taxation, because i defined it explicitly as "per base". You're right but the system is flexible it doesn't necessary stay below the HotS curve at all. Another number example without decreasing efficiency: Say you have 2 Hatches and 14 Workers. Case 1 You have 14 Worker at your main. The Main displays
14/24 Worker 100% efficiency
Case 2 You split your 14 Worker to 7 workers each Hatch. Both Hatcheries display now
7/24 Worker 105% efficiency
I missed the per base part in your first post, my mistake.
If it is per base, then as far as I see it your suggestion amounts to pretty much the same thing as ZeromuS'. The main difference would be that you actually lose money in your suggestion by oversaturating. In double harvesting you only lose efficiency when oversaturating. So your suggestion is more punishing in that regard.
Yeah right because that was my goal. It's still his idea and reasons behind it. I only tried a different aproach after reading his. Losing effeciency is the same as losing money though. The difference is DH starts at higher base rate. The same could be achieved by giving a efficiency boost for under 8 Worker per base (105% for example)
I think the goal is to have efficiencies as you spread out though, and that the option of making a lot of workers on bases should still be viable.
so long as the curve remains similar to hots in the breakpoints of 16 and 24 I would be all up for trying it. I just feel like the change we offered is a lot simpler and is more in line with what we currently have from the perspective of seeing it happen.
Its also something we as a community can easily implement and test without waiting for a big complicated mod or AI changes etc. I don't think the editor is currently set up in such a way to do what you offered, because the mineral patch as an actor in the game determines how many minerals are obtained from it, not the worker.
So you would need to have the patch do some sort of calculation on how many workers are tied to it and even then you would need to remove bouncing for 3 workers if you want to have a 24 worker cap, because otherwise the calculations go out the window.
Also everything is already done on a 1:1 (worker patch) in terms of the calculations. Pairing just happens because workers wait 1 second to begin their paired harvest cycle at the patch. Calculations aren't done on a X workers per 8 patch field level of calculations.
so you can see how it actually becomes extremely complicated to implement your idea without more dedicated map editors who know the mod making system inside and out. Your approach is closer to a full rework from a ground up implementation perspective than ours is (lalush changed one action trigger/value).
You're right, from a community driven perspective DH is way easier to implement of course. I still dreaming about Blizzard taking bold steps with LotV, but thats propably a dream.
On April 14 2015 23:25 solidbebe wrote: Why would you linked the tax system to worker count? Despite not making a lot of sense imo, you greatly benefit terran who can substitute scv's with mules.
Why wouldn't you link it to supply like wc3?
Because the aim is to get a mining curve based on bases, so with the same global worker count on more bases you have an advantage. It tries to emulate the outcomes of the Double Harvesting not the Warcraft 3 Economy. And in Double Harvesting system Terran would have the same benefit. As was said in the OP of the thread, Race Balancing would be secundary balancing with a whole new ressource system.
On April 14 2015 23:32 Teoita wrote: Also that's way harder to implement in the editor than just tweaking a single variable
That's true, but on the other hand it's easy for Blizzard to implement. It's not an experiment like DH, so it's clear what happens gameplay wise. (But is not balanced of course.)
On April 15 2015 00:56 ZeromuS wrote:
On April 14 2015 23:25 solidbebe wrote: Why would you linked the tax system to worker count? Despite not making a lot of sense imo, you greatly benefit terran who can substitute scv's with mules.
Why wouldn't you link it to supply like wc3?
No one wants upkeep. Or any sort of tax system. Its very unintuitive and won't help at all.
On April 15 2015 01:08 BronzeKnee wrote: A tax system would reduce strategic choice and variety in favor of forcing action. This article is about opening up strategic choice by not forcing expansion, so it isn't surprising the writers would be against it.
As I think TheDwf pointed out, the S in RTS is under attack here.
Either you didn't read my post or you didn't understand it. Because it has the exact same effects like Double Harvesting gameplay wise, while having more degrees of freedom and easier tuning for balancing. "tax" is just a name
Double Harvesting tries to indirectly generate a mining curve per base, why not directly implement it, without abusing flaws in the worker AI?
If you think the tax system forces the player to expand than Double Harvest would so too.
There is a big difference between decreasing the efficiency of workers as get more, and increasing the efficiency of workers as you get more bases.
'taxation' or whatever you want to call it is a global thing, so it's by definition not per base.
The first encourages you to stay on lower workers counts, the second simply encourages you to expand.
Forget taxation, because i defined it explicitly as "per base". You're right but the system is flexible it doesn't necessary stay below the HotS curve at all. Another number example without decreasing efficiency: Say you have 2 Hatches and 14 Workers. Case 1 You have 14 Worker at your main. The Main displays
14/24 Worker 100% efficiency
Case 2 You split your 14 Worker to 7 workers each Hatch. Both Hatcheries display now
7/24 Worker 105% efficiency
I missed the per base part in your first post, my mistake.
If it is per base, then as far as I see it your suggestion amounts to pretty much the same thing as ZeromuS'. The main difference would be that you actually lose money in your suggestion by oversaturating. In double harvesting you only lose efficiency when oversaturating. So your suggestion is more punishing in that regard.
Yeah right because that was my goal. It's still his idea and reasons behind it. I only tried a different aproach after reading his. Losing effeciency is the same as losing money though. The difference is DH starts at higher base rate. The same could be achieved by giving a efficiency boost for under 8 Worker per base (105% for example)
I disagree that losing minerals equates to losing efficiency. Thats only the case if you assume there are infinite resources in a map, but there arent. In some games maps get mined out completely, thats where the tax takes a big toll, by having the decreased the maximum possible available minerals.
Okay sorry now i understand what you meant. You're right, thats a point i didn't think about. If both players mine out half the map, the player with more spread out workers gets another advantage by higher overall minerals.
Yup lots and lots of benefits to DH that open the game up a lot more in my opinion.
Even in lategame you have reason to harass longer standing bases because the minerals arent all gone (they mine slower with less than 16 if you spread them out more).
On April 13 2015 00:44 Barrin wrote: @author of Double Harvest, can we get (A) 4 per harvest (for 4+4=8 per trip) and maybe (B) 4.5 per harvest (for 4.5+4.5=9 per trip) versions, please? super thanks!
I think this would just drop the overall income by 20% if it was 8 per trip. I dont believe mineral patches give 0.5 steps of cargo either.
It might get rounded [truncated] on a return -- though maybe not tbh -- but I am quite positive the data editor can handle 4.5 in the pocket for a return a whole 9. Knowing the editor, I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn that decimals are fully supported in resource values (even if not displayed in-game). I'll test it soon.
If you drop overall income by 20% you end up with even harsher returns on fewer bases (on 16 workers) compared to hots. Which would be far too low when comparing to the HotS curve, since Blizz wants closer to hots curve. By dropping the income to 8 you end up with a little over 100 less minerals a minute at 16 compared to standard.
It also barely increases early game income which means the early game side effect of going quicker is lost. So I think if you do that you begin to lose sight of some of the design goals of blizzard taking our goals out of line with theirs wont help us
I don't think you've fully contemplated the ramifications of these facts stated in your chart
Two base 8 worker is 24% more efficient than 16 on one base.
if you think most of its effect is in the early game.
For one, the early game hardly exists if you accelerate it so fast.
More importantly: especially under a mineral income model with a curve starting at the 9th worker, players are going to be expanding a lot of the time (at least until they don't need to anymore*). This means that even though
One base income with 16 workers is only 5% higher than current SC2 Economy with this model.
a lot (if not most) of the time the income is going to be higher than 5% (and 5% isn't really small, tbh).
Unless you go from 1 base start to full-bases-fully-saturated very quickly, we're looking at more like a 10% overall income increase. So if we want to "keep the resourcing rates similar to that of HotS", we're definitely looking at more like 9/trip instead of 10/trip.
*So when we're looking at a mining rate increase of 5-38%, we actually are looking at a situation where you go from 1 base start to full-bases-fully-saturated very quickly. So maybe it is closer to a 5% increase, but I don't think getting to full-bases-fully-saturated so quickly is what anyone actually wants.
---
Yes, I do want to slow the game down (9 per trip wouldn't do that btw). But that doesn't mean there were no points in my first reply about this system itself. I would particularly like a rebuttal to
On April 13 2015 00:17 Barrin wrote: ... The thing is: who cares about having better economy with 48(+) workers on 3(4) bases when I basically have enough income to max quickly enough on just 2(3) bases already? ...
What I'm saying is that you basically already have all the income you could possibly want in HotS model on just 3 bases already. When you already have all the income you want on so few bases, a little more income or a few less workers hardly justifies an investment in spreading yourself out even more. In a 5-38% income increase model, if you do keep expanding past that it's probably more because you have extra minerals to spare (or you're zerg and you were going to take the 4th for gas/production anyway).
Do you think people are going to want a 4th mineral mining base under 10 per trip?
All of your points I think are things we can only really answer as people play the game.
There's so little to see without gameplay happening its hard to guess at
Also the only reason 9 might not work is because I dont think you can basket 4.5 but if you could it would be cool to try since we did try 9 min with longer return times too.
On April 14 2015 17:52 Teoita wrote: The same can be said about the LotV economy model though. Mules are annoying because the terran is on an even more brutal clock to expand, chrono is underwhelming, while larva inject+faster thirds give Zerg enormous freedom, and keep their own "expanding clock" from being as harsh as protoss or terran.
I don't know if I agree on this, I agree that zerg might get a bit too strong since their hatch is cheap and it is also their production facility but I don't believe the macro mechanic would be the problem. You say chrono is underwhelming, it achives to a slight degree what zergs larva inject does increase worker amount early game at a more rapid speed than normal. You can also use it to go eco mode longer than you should be able too because you can take the necessary upgrades or units production later with the help of chrono boost.
Upgrades are the perfect example, take PvT, P can start their upgrades significantly later than T and instead focusing on economy (or if you so chose early aggression) and still be ahead in upgrades later on.
I believe the effect of chrono boost and how much freedom it gives to P in their build orders are greatly undervalued.
It's not undervalued, it is useful, but I actually did calculations for this paper that were left out due to brevity on the rate of return for a new expansion in the system, which assumed full chrono boost on probes (which is obviously not always going to be the case because you often want to chrono boost something else), and zerg and terran both had protoss beaten on rate of return.
Hmm I'm still kind of confused at what this actually means. Are you saying that you have compared the economy differences between how underwhelming chronoboost is as an economic booster in hots compared to lotv(with this proposed dual harvest patch)?
In hots economy chrono boost can keep up with the economy boosters of the others but with dual harvesters they can't?
I've thought that chrono boost has always been beaten by the others races macro mechanic in term of rate of return economy wise. That this is stil the case after a change to the game isn't really shocking. The strength of the mechanics are different the rate of return for one thing doesn't have to be the same for all three races. Even for terran with mules and triple CC builds they are going to be behind zerg if they let him drone and expand freely for too long, thats why pressure builds are a thing. Maybe I'm missing something or not understanding what you mean but unless the rate of return is very reduced compared to how even it was in hots i can't really see he difference to hots.
On April 14 2015 17:52 Teoita wrote: The same can be said about the LotV economy model though. Mules are annoying because the terran is on an even more brutal clock to expand, chrono is underwhelming, while larva inject+faster thirds give Zerg enormous freedom, and keep their own "expanding clock" from being as harsh as protoss or terran.
I don't know if I agree on this, I agree that zerg might get a bit too strong since their hatch is cheap and it is also their production facility but I don't believe the macro mechanic would be the problem. You say chrono is underwhelming, it achives to a slight degree what zergs larva inject does increase worker amount early game at a more rapid speed than normal. You can also use it to go eco mode longer than you should be able too because you can take the necessary upgrades or units production later with the help of chrono boost.
Upgrades are the perfect example, take PvT, P can start their upgrades significantly later than T and instead focusing on economy (or if you so chose early aggression) and still be ahead in upgrades later on.
I believe the effect of chrono boost and how much freedom it gives to P in their build orders are greatly undervalued.
It's not undervalued, it is useful, but I actually did calculations for this paper that were left out due to brevity on the rate of return for a new expansion in the system, which assumed full chrono boost on probes (which is obviously not always going to be the case because you often want to chrono boost something else), and zerg and terran both had protoss beaten on rate of return.
Hmm I'm still kind of confused at what this actually means. Are you saying that you have compared the economy differences between how underwhelming chronoboost is as an economic booster in hots compared to lotv(with this proposed dual harvest patch)?
In hots economy chrono boost can keep up with the economy boosters of the others but with dual harvesters they can't?
I've thought that chrono boost has always been beaten by the others races macro mechanic in term of rate of return economy wise. That this is stil the case after a change to the game isn't really shocking. The strength of the mechanics are different the rate of return for one thing doesn't have to be the same for all three races. Even for terran with mules and triple CC builds they are going to be behind zerg if they let him drone and expand freely for too long, thats why pressure builds are a thing. Maybe I'm missing something or not understanding what you mean but unless the rate of return is very reduced compared to how even it was in hots i can't really see he difference to hots.
No, I did a DID (Differences in Differences) calculation. I took the difference in rate of return that exists in heart of the swarm on an expansion, and contrasted that to the differences in this model. In other words, this model benefits zerg and terran slightly more in terms of how fast they pay off an expansion relative to protoss than the heart of the swarm model does.
That said, it's not a big difference which is why it was left out, wasn't deemed significant enough. There are too many variables to really run an effective econometric analysis on the question, so I made estimated guesses from that point. The econometric tests I did conduct demonstrate that protoss is slightly weaker in double harvesting relative to terran and zerg than they are in heart of the swarm, but not nearly as badly harmed as they are by the current LOTV model, but only around the p <.07, which is not that statistically significant.
In general, chronboost is a weaker economic mechanic than the terran and zerg equivalents. Where chronoboost shines is in researching tech: there's nothing terran or zerg can do to speed their economic research along, other than starting the research sooner, but Protoss can. So, chronoboost is weaker than the terran and zerg macro mechanic, but more versatile.
On April 14 2015 17:52 Teoita wrote: The same can be said about the LotV economy model though. Mules are annoying because the terran is on an even more brutal clock to expand, chrono is underwhelming, while larva inject+faster thirds give Zerg enormous freedom, and keep their own "expanding clock" from being as harsh as protoss or terran.
I don't know if I agree on this, I agree that zerg might get a bit too strong since their hatch is cheap and it is also their production facility but I don't believe the macro mechanic would be the problem. You say chrono is underwhelming, it achives to a slight degree what zergs larva inject does increase worker amount early game at a more rapid speed than normal. You can also use it to go eco mode longer than you should be able too because you can take the necessary upgrades or units production later with the help of chrono boost.
Upgrades are the perfect example, take PvT, P can start their upgrades significantly later than T and instead focusing on economy (or if you so chose early aggression) and still be ahead in upgrades later on.
I believe the effect of chrono boost and how much freedom it gives to P in their build orders are greatly undervalued.
It's not undervalued, it is useful, but I actually did calculations for this paper that were left out due to brevity on the rate of return for a new expansion in the system, which assumed full chrono boost on probes (which is obviously not always going to be the case because you often want to chrono boost something else), and zerg and terran both had protoss beaten on rate of return.
Hmm I'm still kind of confused at what this actually means. Are you saying that you have compared the economy differences between how underwhelming chronoboost is as an economic booster in hots compared to lotv(with this proposed dual harvest patch)?
In hots economy chrono boost can keep up with the economy boosters of the others but with dual harvesters they can't?
I've thought that chrono boost has always been beaten by the others races macro mechanic in term of rate of return economy wise. That this is stil the case after a change to the game isn't really shocking. The strength of the mechanics are different the rate of return for one thing doesn't have to be the same for all three races. Even for terran with mules and triple CC builds they are going to be behind zerg if they let him drone and expand freely for too long, thats why pressure builds are a thing. Maybe I'm missing something or not understanding what you mean but unless the rate of return is very reduced compared to how even it was in hots i can't really see he difference to hots.
No, I did a DID (Differences in Differences) calculation. I took the difference in rate of return that exists in heart of the swarm on an expansion, and contrasted that to the differences in this model. In other words, this model benefits zerg and terran slightly more in terms of how fast they pay off an expansion relative to protoss than the heart of the swarm model does.
That said, it's not a big difference which is why it was left out, wasn't deemed significant enough. There are too many variables to really run an effective econometric analysis on the question, so I made estimated guesses from that point. The econometric tests I did conduct demonstrate that protoss is slightly weaker in double harvesting relative to terran and zerg than they are in heart of the swarm, but not nearly as badly harmed as they are by the current LOTV model, but only around the p <.07, which is not that statistically significant.
In general, chronboost is a weaker economic mechanic than the terran and zerg equivalents. Where chronoboost shines is in researching tech: there's nothing terran or zerg can do to speed their economic research along, other than starting the research sooner, but Protoss can. So, chronoboost is weaker than the terran and zerg macro mechanic, but more versatile.
I see, I completely agree chrono boost is more versatile, besides upgrades you can also use it to chrono heavy units like colossus which can make their timings sharper and also make the scouting window smaller from tech to actual army gain.
Thanks for making it clear and taking the time to explain what you meant. I have to agree with you now, that this is something that needs to be taken a closer look at to make sure that protoss doesn't fall off to hard and isn't getting less incentive than the other races to expand. That could end up promoting mass two base all in metas again if the difference if the rate of return is too different between the races. Thanks for all your hardwork!
On April 15 2015 05:37 Barrin wrote: You can now find an "FRB-approved", 8 minerals per trip (down from 10) version of Double Harvesting on NA, EU, and Korea servers. Thanks to Uvantak & Lalush for keeping their versions unlocked (I will take mine down upon request if you will replace it).
Search: "Double Harvesting - FRB Edit"
Please let me know how you think it feels. To me it seemed a tad faster or a tad slower than current HotS, depending on your level of saturation. More scientific comparison later. I like it a lot.
We need a channel for Double Harvesting btw.
This sounds a lot better to me. I feel like the high rate of income in DH is minorly problematic, though I'm intereseted in Zeromus' thoughts here! (Plus it's 8 mins per trip like BW which is cute. :D)
On April 15 2015 05:37 Barrin wrote: You can now find an "FRB-approved", 8 minerals per trip (down from 10) version of Double Harvesting on NA, EU, and Korea servers. Thanks to Uvantak & Lalush for keeping their versions unlocked (I will take mine down upon request if you will replace it).
Search: "Double Harvesting - FRB Edit"
Please let me know how you think it feels. To me it seemed a tad faster or a tad slower than current HotS, depending on your level of saturation. More scientific comparison later. I like it a lot.
We need a channel for Double Harvesting btw.
This sounds a lot better to me. I feel like the high rate of income in DH is minorly problematic, though I'm intereseted in Zeromus' thoughts here! (Plus it's 8 mins per trip like BW which is cute. :D)
Would need to see the numbers, but I do know that blizz wants a quicker pace game, so slowing it down no matter how good that might be on paper, is really not in line with their goals. Thats all Im up for trying it
I think that having a base mine out at a standard, consistent rate over the same period of time without half patches is going to be much more palatable to the casual 1v1 low level player who wants to focus on "base management" and sim city. I know lots of people who enjoy making tanks and turrets in bronze/silver because they find it fun. When you force them to have to move around the map more and not in a "im gonna drop!" kind of way but in a "oh I dont have the minerals left to do what I find fun" kind of way you take what they like about the game away from them in the name of "viewership" and "preventing turtling".
Holy s*** this is so spot on it's not even funny. This sums up my feelings on LotV economy perfectly.
As a mere mortal who has LotV access, the current economy model leaves a lot to be desired.. Feeling broke all the time, and not feeling like I can try the stuff that I *want* to do is kind of frustrating. I guess the pros don't really have that same issue, which might be why like guys like Huk have a different perspective (as he very openly showcased on Remax tonight) and why they feel the much faster pace is good for the game.
edit: To be clear, I mean faster paced as in the more...frantic feel, not the removal of early game down time and speeding up tech/production timings, but the franticness of having to expand just so you can survive.
This is a brilliant article, Blizzard should be hiring y'all! :D
To get past some of the issues of doubling minerals/mining time, why not impose a self handicapping system where if there are two workers at a patch their total income collection rate is reduced by 20%?
If there is one worker on a patch it mines 5 minerals per cycle, but if there are two workers on a patch they only mine 4 minerals each.
Perhaps a little more gimmicky and artificial than the more straightforward approach suggested in the article, but it seems to at least help reduce the significance of harassment and pulling workers off the line. I also kind of like subtle mechanics like that in games!
Regardless, I really do hope Blizz reads articles like these!
On April 15 2015 05:37 Barrin wrote: You can now find an "FRB-approved", 8 minerals per trip (down from 10) version of Double Harvesting on NA, EU, and Korea servers. Thanks to Uvantak & Lalush for keeping their versions unlocked (I will take mine down upon request if you will replace it).
Search: "Double Harvesting - FRB Edit"
Please let me know how you think it feels. To me it seemed a tad faster or a tad slower than current HotS, depending on your level of saturation. More scientific comparison later. I like it a lot.
We need a channel for Double Harvesting btw.
This sounds a lot better to me. I feel like the high rate of income in DH is minorly problematic, though I'm intereseted in Zeromus' thoughts here! (Plus it's 8 mins per trip like BW which is cute. :D)
Would need to see the numbers, but I do know that blizz wants a quicker pace game, so slowing it down no matter how good that might be on paper, is really not in line with their goals. Thats all Im up for trying it
I disagree with that definition of pacing, it slows down army sizes because you can't do as much at once, so the game develops a bit slower, but things still take the same length of time to build, so the delay to get into action isn't any longer. It mostly just extends the mid-game.
It's an interesting thing to look at.
Regardless, there's no reason to implement both solutions.
I think that having a base mine out at a standard, consistent rate over the same period of time without half patches is going to be much more palatable to the casual 1v1 low level player who wants to focus on "base management" and sim city. I know lots of people who enjoy making tanks and turrets in bronze/silver because they find it fun. When you force them to have to move around the map more and not in a "im gonna drop!" kind of way but in a "oh I dont have the minerals left to do what I find fun" kind of way you take what they like about the game away from them in the name of "viewership" and "preventing turtling".
Holy s*** this is so spot on it's not even funny. This sums up my feelings on LotV economy perfectly.
As a mere mortal who has LotV access, the current economy model leaves a lot to be desired.. Feeling broke all the time, and not feeling like I can try the stuff that I *want* to do is kind of frustrating. I guess the pros don't really have that same issue, which might be why like guys like Huk have a different perspective (as he very openly showcased on Remax tonight) and why they feel the much faster pace is good for the game.
edit: To be clear, I mean faster paced as in the more...frantic feel, not the removal of early game down time and speeding up tech/production timings, but the franticness of having to expand just so you can survive.
Yeah you see thats i think piece of the equation that might not be thought about.
I mean sure, the new lotv system can create a frantic feeling and it might be fun for some people. Some people might also be able to keep up.
But if you raise the skill floor too high while also raising the skill ceiling you just alienate some players. And its kind of unfair to tell them they HAVE to play archon to have fun (doing one of macro or micro).
It might also be better for viewers of the game to easily see the trade off expand vs not expand, but, its just not worth putting some viewers in front of players. IMO if you cant get ppl to play then ppl wont want to watch.
Fantastic article. Thank you for making your arguments clear and DATA DRIVEN. I like the ideas you've proposed here and, importantly, the rationale behind your argument for the Double Harvest model.
I agree that players should be rewarded for expanded rather than punished for not expanding. This creates an incentive system for expanding that encourages strategic diversity, as you said, while not precluding strategies built on 1, 2 or 3 base timing attacks. In fact, this proposed change can be argued to enhanced some of those strategies or even create new windows for timing play because of the overall buff to mineral income (albeit slight).
Perhaps most important of all, an incentive system built on rewards rather than punishment is more FUN and enjoyable to play and watch. For that reason alone, I hope that the Blizzard devs see this and consider its merits for testing.
Finally took the time to read this. Wonderful article, very clearly explained. The proposed model seems to have some clear advantages over the current LotV model.
I don't know if I like that the new double harvest model always gets more minerals per minute than the current one. I think it would be better if the curve of the new model stays below the original one. Perhaps make the second mining action add less minerals than 5.
I think that having a base mine out at a standard, consistent rate over the same period of time without half patches is going to be much more palatable to the casual 1v1 low level player who wants to focus on "base management" and sim city. I know lots of people who enjoy making tanks and turrets in bronze/silver because they find it fun. When you force them to have to move around the map more and not in a "im gonna drop!" kind of way but in a "oh I dont have the minerals left to do what I find fun" kind of way you take what they like about the game away from them in the name of "viewership" and "preventing turtling".
Holy s*** this is so spot on it's not even funny. This sums up my feelings on LotV economy perfectly.
As a mere mortal who has LotV access, the current economy model leaves a lot to be desired.. Feeling broke all the time, and not feeling like I can try the stuff that I *want* to do is kind of frustrating. I guess the pros don't really have that same issue, which might be why like guys like Huk have a different perspective (as he very openly showcased on Remax tonight) and why they feel the much faster pace is good for the game.
edit: To be clear, I mean faster paced as in the more...frantic feel, not the removal of early game down time and speeding up tech/production timings, but the franticness of having to expand just so you can survive.
Yeah you see thats i think piece of the equation that might not be thought about.
I mean sure, the new lotv system can create a frantic feeling and it might be fun for some people. Some people might also be able to keep up.
But if you raise the skill floor too high while also raising the skill ceiling you just alienate some players. And its kind of unfair to tell them they HAVE to play archon to have fun (doing one of macro or micro).
It might also be better for viewers of the game to easily see the trade off expand vs not expand, but, its just not worth putting some viewers in front of players. IMO if you cant get ppl to play then ppl wont want to watch.
well sc2 is like mustard. imagine you are back in potato league. you play your first 5 games and lose them all.
suddenly, in your heart, the deepest desire to be god of sc2 or fuck this, play some heartstone, jerk off, take one good shit and then go to bed.
the frantic feeling is what makes sc2 appealing. you need to crave the pain of learning and being learned.
On April 15 2015 09:23 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Finally took the time to read this. Wonderful article, very clearly explained. The proposed model seems to have some clear advantages over the current LotV model.
I don't know if I like that the new double harvest model always gets more minerals per minute than the current one. I think it would be better if the curve of the new model stays below the original one. Perhaps make the second mining action add less minerals than 5.
Or perhaps harvest action yields 4 minerals instead of 5.
On April 15 2015 05:37 Barrin wrote: You can now find an "FRB-approved", 8 minerals per trip (down from 10) version of Double Harvesting on NA, EU, and Korea servers. Thanks to Uvantak & Lalush for keeping their versions unlocked (I will take mine down upon request if you will replace it).
Search: "Double Harvesting - FRB Edit"
Please let me know how you think it feels. To me it seemed a tad faster or a tad slower than current HotS, depending on your level of saturation. More scientific comparison later. I like it a lot.
We need a channel for Double Harvesting btw.
This sounds a lot better to me. I feel like the high rate of income in DH is minorly problematic, though I'm intereseted in Zeromus' thoughts here! (Plus it's 8 mins per trip like BW which is cute. :D)
Would need to see the numbers, but I do know that blizz wants a quicker pace game, so slowing it down no matter how good that might be on paper, is really not in line with their goals. Thats all Im up for trying it
Well, they could achieve that in very small part by retaining the idea behind their 12 worker start. I think 12 is too extreme, but 8 would be a logical number.
Was this article was written by primarily protoss players? I think this would be a massive nerf for terran if implemented for 4 reasons:
1) Terrans don't have the problem of having "too many workers" resulting in lower army supply late game. This is only a problem that protosses and zerg have (less workers == more deathball! yay!).
2) This change would make mules less effective relative to workers (since default worker income is increased compared to hots). Mules would need a corresponding buff
3) A lot of terran strategies involve playing defensively in the early game while harassing the enemie's workers to slow them down economically. The game is balanced around these strats (e.g. in TvZ banshee/hellions openers, TvP mine drops, and TvT banshee/drop play). The double harvest change reduces the effectiveness of harassment since losing 8 workers out of 16 from your mineral will result in FAR LESS of a drop in economy. This means harassment will be FAR LESS effective for all races (but terran needs it the most out of all 3 races) meaning harass builds will be objectively worse. TvZ would be impossible to win for terrans without doing stupid all-ins every game.
4) Then you have other issues like terran being the most defensive race in late game. They have an easier time with defensive structures. This is a problem when zerg get an early lead - it's really easy for a zerg to go up to 5 bases if they get a slight early game lead, locking the terran down to 3 bases. This point isn't as objective as the previous 3 since it's hard to predict whether or not terrans will need to play turtley in LOTV.
On April 15 2015 10:45 Mongoose wrote: Was this article was written by primarily protoss players? I think this would be a massive nerf for terran if implemented for 4 reasons:
1) Terrans don't have the problem of having "too many workers" resulting in lower army supply late game. This is only a problem that protosses and zerg have (less workers == more deathball! yay!).
2) This change would make mules less effective relative to workers (since default worker income is increased compared to hots). Mules would need a corresponding buff
3) A lot of terran strategies involve playing defensively in the early game while harassing the enemie's workers to slow them down economically. The game is balanced around these strats (e.g. in TvZ banshee/hellions openers, TvP mine drops, and TvT banshee/drop play). The double harvest change reduces the effectiveness of harassment since losing 8 workers out of 16 from your mineral will result in FAR LESS of a drop in economy. This means harassment will be FAR LESS effective for all races (but terran needs it the most out of all 3 races) meaning harass builds will be objectively worse. TvZ would be impossible to win for terrans without doing stupid all-ins every game.
4) Then you have other issues like terran being the most defensive race in late game. They have an easier time with defensive structures. This is a problem when zerg get an early lead - it's really easy for a zerg to go up to 5 bases if they get a slight early game lead, locking the terran down to 3 bases. This point isn't as objective as the previous 3 since it's hard to predict whether or not terrans will need to play turtley in LOTV.
This is actually a straight buff to terran, believe it or not. The fact is that minerals to terran are more valuable than they are to zerg or protoss (which rely on more gas). This flat out increases mineral income, and terran has the easiest time holding bases away from their army because of the planetary fortress.
1) Terran have a maximum worker limit, which is what limits how many bases they will mine from. This solves the problem for terran too. You are arguing that terran has a lower maximum worker limit because they trade workers out. That's fine, but they still benefit from more bases under this system, so this is flat wrong.
2) True, but it's not clear mules would need a buff. Terran is a complex race that needs to be balanced as a whole against the entirety of protoss and the entirety of zerg. This does not mean individual elements need to be balanced against other individual elements. Zealots don't have to be balanced against battlecruisers, and mules don't have to be balanced against larva inject.
3) Early game harass is still powerful, because it reduces the enemy's ability to utilize new expansions rapidly. 8 workers lost does hurt less than HOTS, but not that much less to the point where it's worthless or weak. Further, harass becomes more powerful as the game develops because bases become more spread out and more vulnerable, and a base with only 8 workers suffers a greater income loss when they die than a base with 16 that loses 8 in HOTS. I think lowering the power of very early game harass in exchange for a boost to mid-game and late game harass is a good thing, especially for terran which is even better at that kind of harass than protoss or zerg is.
4) I disagree with terran being the most defensive race in the late game, and this system does reward expanding and income generation, but it also permits for play which is lower in income but more efficient in trades, which terran excels at. Efficiency is still a viable strategy, but it's no longer the dominant outright strategy. That's key: this is aimed to allow temporary turtle play for key tech and infrastructure or key army sizes, but not to allow people to turtle indefinitely, which is the entire purpose. I do not believe terran needs to turtle indefinitely, especially with their opponent being more spread out and vulnerable to make use of that additional income.
I think mules would probably need to be slightly buffed, but that's the sort of thing you can figure out through gameplay. I don't think it's a major concern. In fact all 3 macro mechanics would need to be looked at balance-wise. Heck, they need to be looked at in Legacy right now.
TLDR: I want to propose a potential alternative to the Double Harvest method. I don't have a working prototype, but I am look for someone to collaborate with in developing (I would be willing to make a modest donation to make this happen). If nothing else, hopefully this adds some food for thought.
So if the resource collection rate is about 42 minerals / minute per worker, then with a collection load of 5 minerals, that means it takes each worker about 8.4 trips, and each trip is a roughly 7 1/7 seconds round trip. If ZermouS's 2.762 seconds to mine is accurate, that means it takes 4.38(1) seconds to return the cargo and to get back to the mineral patch. If that is indeed the case, then there should also be 4.38(1) seconds on the patch to mine while the first worker is away. And if that is the case, the mineral patch should be able to support 2.586 workers simultaneously.
To me, the important piece of this puzzle is the travel time, because that is basically the time within which all other workers would need to finish their mining by the time the first worker returns to the patch (no matter how many are mining). Since we are not going to touch the movement speed of the worker this really is the key to solving the resource puzzle. I don't think we need to *trick* the AI into doing what we want it to do, I think we can simply get our timings in order.
So, for just 2 workers per patch, each worker can have up to 4.38(1) seconds to mine. This increases the total mining time to 8.762 seconds, which means 6.848 trips for 34.24 minerals per minute.
If we wanted a 3 worker maximum per patch, each of the other two workers can mine for 2.19 seconds before the first worker returns. This decreases the total mining time down to 6.57 seconds for each worker, which means 9.13 trips for 45.65 minerals per minute.
If we wanted a 4 worker maximum per patch, each of the other three workers can mine for 1.46 seconds before the first worker returns. This decreases the total mining time down to 5.84 seconds for each worker, which means 10.27 trips for 51.36 minerals per minute.
If we wanted a 5 worker maximum per patch, each of the other four workers can mine for 1.095 seconds before the first worker returns. This decreases the total mining time down to 5.48 seconds for each worker, which means 10.957 trips for 54.78 minerals per minute.
So why am I going through this exercise if this seems to be *INCREASING* the amount of income overall, after all, aren't we trying to figure out how to derive more of a sliding scale and not make the mining AI more efficient?
I wanted to find a fairly clean and intuitive curve that could both be used to pump a single base further without needing to cut workers as soon as 16~24, as well as to encourage and reward expansion. The problem I seem to run into now is the above timing information.
So if the true maximum saturation is 5 workers per patch, and thus mining time is 1.095 seconds per worker, then at 4 minerals per worker yields 43.83 minerals per minute. In my system, this time is represented as 50% of the full mining time per worker, which means that the full mining time per worker would have to be 2.19 seconds.
So going back through my original proposed system given this timing information the above would then look like the following:
For a single worker, the time to mine would be 2.19 seconds, making the total mining time 6.57 seconds, or 9.13 trips. At 8 minerals per load, this then becomes 73 minerals per second per worker.
For 2 workers, the time to mine would be 87.5% of 2.19 seconds, which is 1.917 seconds (< 4.38 so good here), making the total mining time about 6.297 seconds, or 9.528 trips. At 7 minerals per load, this then becomes 66.69 minerals per second per worker. This is about a 91% reduction in efficiency.
For 3 workers, the time to mine would be 75% of 2.19 seconds, which is 1.64 seconds (< 2.19 so good here), making the total mining time about 6.023 seconds, or 9.96 trips. At 6 minerals per load, this then becomes 59.76 minerals per second per worker. This is about a 81% reduction in efficiency.
For 4 workers, the time to mine would be 62.5% of 2.19 seconds, which is 1.37 seconds (< 1.46 so good here), making the total mining time about 5.75 seconds, or 10.435 trips. At 5 minerals per load, this then becomes 52.175 minerals per second per worker. This is about a 71% reduction in efficiency.
And I've already stated what it would be for 5 workers above which is about a 60% reduction in efficiency. So while an approximate 10% reduction each time is a fairly clean system, this doesn't *quite* do what I had originally hoped it would do since we have actually increased all of the rates.
So to decrease the rates, we need to either lower the carry amounts, or increase the mining time, or both. If we increase the mining time (via the maximum time to mine as above), to the full times for a 4.38 return trip, we get the following:
Which doesn't work because the ratios in time difference do not match up well against the ratios of mineral difference. So while it greatly slows down the first two levels of saturation, it oddly speeds back up at the third level which is entirely unintuitive, and simply not the desired outcome.
So if we go down the other route of decreasing the mineral loads instead of increasing the timing, and revert back to the original 5 minerals per load, we both roughly approximate the original single level saturation rate and we also avoid reaching zero resources returned. This would look like the following:
9.13 trips @ 5 minerals per trip = 45.65 minerals / minute 9.528 trips @ 4 minerals per trip = 38.112 minerals / minute (83% reduction) x 2 workers = 76.224 per cycle 9.96 trips @ 3 minerals per trip = 29.88 minerals / minute (65% reduction) x 3 workers = 89.64 per cycle 10.435 trips @ 2 minerals per trip = 20.87 minerals / minute (45% reduction) x 4 workers = 83.48 per cycle 10.957 trips @ 1 mineral per trip = 10.957 minerals / minute (24% reduction) x 5 workers = 54.785 per cycle
So while the first three levels of saturation do pretty well, the big problem here is that if we keep increasing workers, we actually begin to hinder our mining, which is also not a desired feature. So the question is whether there is a sweet spot that leaves us some potential solution.
The biggest challenge to my solution is the assumption that five level of saturation is a good idea since our reduction of minerals needs/ought to be integer based, and the absolute minimum number of trips we can make for 2 workers is 6.848, which at 6 minerals per trip would yield 41.088 minerals per minute which is quite close to the current state of mining. If we follow this through we get the following:
So while it takes until the fourth level of saturation, it still actually winds up with an odd increase, which again is undesirable. Now this may wind up being a great alternative for the current 3rd level of saturation dilemma, but is there still a way that makes sense for 5 levels of saturation with the current movement speed?
What if we were to take the difference of our 5 worker time and our 4 worker time, and simply find our 1 worker time by adding the difference for each worker? So 1.46 - 1.095 = 0.365, and thus:
1 worker time = 2.555 --> 6.93 per trip --> 8.66 trips 2 worker time = 2.19 (< 4.38) --> 6.57 per trip --> 9.13 trips 3 worker time = 1.825 (< 2.19) --> 6.21 per trip --> 9.66 trips 4 worker time = 1.46 --> 5.84 per trip --> 10.27 trips 5 worker time = 1.095 --> 5.48 per trip --> 10.957 trips
For which we would still have to start with 5 minerals per trip and then reduce down to 1 at the fifth level of saturation, and we have already shown this is too steep a reduction.
So ultimately, without doubling the cost of everything, or decreasing the movement speed of everything in half (from the inflated, but somewhat correct model that began with 8 mineral lodes), it appears we cannot apply anything here to a model that supports 5 level of saturation. HOWEVER, I believe I have at least shown that this method *CAN* be used to support three levels of saturation quite easily.
Now, you might ask, why go with this method vs. the currently proposed double harvest? To me, it seems more intuitive to simply show the miners speed up their mining and taking home less for less work done, than it is to watch them bounce, and then invisibly hold 5 resources, while still being a more valuable target for sniping than the worker who actually has none. I'm sure the double harvest is probably good enough, but it seems to lack a little bit of the elegance of a simple timing approach.
Now assuming anyone is interested in this idea at this point, the question then becomes how would we even get this to work if this was indeed a good solution. Well, that's a great question, because I don't have a working model to test, but I am looking for someone to collaborate with to come up with a solution. I've got some ideas for how it can be done, but I don't have the prowess with the editor to do this myself. If anyone is interested in helping me with this, I would be grateful, perhaps in the form of a $mall $um. If not, I hope some of the figures here at least help contribute to this discussion in some way.
Double Mining means that a worker spends twice as long mining, and returns double the minerals. So this shifts the balance of time spent from a specific worker away from travelling to the Town Hall and back, and puts it more on the time spent mining. This is meant to make workers more efficient at low numbers, and less efficient at high numbers.
Double Harvest is the same idea, except that the worker pulls minerals in 2 sets. So it will spend the same time mining as Double Mining, but if it's pulled away after the first set is done, it will have, say, 5 minerals instead of the normal 10. If it finishes both sets it will have 10 minerals.
Why did blizzard think this was good in their alpha builds? I really, really hope they just put their tail between their legs and try out the methods suggested in this post, when 64k people have looked at this under the impression that the current econ is lackluster at best.
Blizz is not trying to break the game, but they need to start listening to the community a bit more, because every time they do this expac stuff they wind up infuriating everyone by taking the general idea of what we want and then twisting it to the point where it no longer resembles anything near what we actually did want.
I'm glad to see TL putting out featured pieces to reaffirm this superior approach to RTS economy. I'm not sure why Blizzard seems so adamantly against it, but perhaps with the largest SC2 community pushing forward the idea as well, they might come around.
On April 15 2015 13:24 BronzeKnee wrote: Because it wasn't their idea.
Pride.
as retarded and obnoxious as this idea seems, as the years go by, I think it's the real answer. That, or maybe there's some litigious reason they can't just take the ideas we present them for intellectual property reasons or some other bullshit
I'm not sure I really care what the solution is, I just want taking more bases to reward a better economy at the risk of potentially spreading yourself too thin (with similar worker counts). There has to be a risk/reward component to both expanding and turtling. The whole "only 3 bases" and the linear mining income ramp is about the most nonstrategic thing I can think of.
This is a strategy game! The entire game should be a risk/reward cost/benefit analysis. Speeding up the game doesn't make it better if there's no real choice to make.
On April 15 2015 12:43 iamcaustic wrote: I'm not sure why Blizzard seems so adamantly against it...
Because it wasn't their idea.
Pride.
And the sad thing is that they missed out on winning a ton of brownie points. The community would have such a massive collective hard on if this patch had literally just read "Sure, we'll give double harvest a shot."
Would have outstripped the hype for balance tweaks for sure, and the work was basically done for them.
They need to learn to work the crowd a little better.
Sorry if this has already been proposed and/or discussed, but is it possible to implement a cooldown timer on mineral patches after harvest? When a worker successfully mines 5 minerals, the patch would become unavailable for mining for a small time (~.5s) so that the next harvester cannot immediately mine from it.
This would not change the mining profile up to 8 workers from the current SC2 on, but would introduce a ramping down effect starting at the 9th miner. Also, this dampens even more the economy with 3 workers for a single patch.
As I see it, pros: - No change from current economy profile with 1 worker per patch. - Effective way to dampen the harvester efficiency depending on wrokers/patch. - Pulling workers out of a mineral line does not seem to be more penalized from the current SC2 mechanics.
cons: - Is a cooldown visualisation needed? (Patch changes color, etc.) And coul it be confusing? - Accumulation of workers next to mineral patches, could have an impact on harass based on AoE damage.
On April 15 2015 12:43 iamcaustic wrote: I'm not sure why Blizzard seems so adamantly against it...
Because it wasn't their idea.
Pride.
Yeah or maybe, you know, this idea is not that good and the solution is more in the unit design?
People see 2 graphs and they're going full erect, but really who has tested this and it's impact on an actual game?
The current DH (10 mins per trip) is bad imho, because with a low count of workers you have a crazy mineral income that unecessarily boosts agressive openings (heard bout 3 rax proxy? you can go on test it) I m not sure this the way I would like the meta to go to.
I will try and test the new 8 mins per trip DH, but I'm not particulary optimistic.
On the other hand bizzard is testing a very violent change with the 1500 750 mins patch, but in the end the idea is to converge toward a smooth solution, what if at release it becomes 8 patch of 1250 minerals or something?
So imho, both solution are bad atm, but I think blizzard one is easier to balance and to optimize...
I can be totally wrong of course and maybe the 2:1 mining is actually the root of all evil in this game, but this old "blizzard is full of crap and don't know how to make a game" is getting old...
On April 15 2015 12:43 iamcaustic wrote: I'm not sure why Blizzard seems so adamantly against it...
Because it wasn't their idea.
Pride.
Yeah or maybe, you know, this idea is not that good and the solution is more in the unit design?
People see 2 graphs and they're going full erect, but really who has tested this and it's impact on an actual game?
The current DH (10 mins per trip) is bad imho, because with a low count of workers you have a crazy mineral income that unecessarily boosts agressive openings (heard bout 3 rax proxy? you can go on test it) I m not sure this the way I would like the meta to go to.
I will try and test the new 8 mins per trip DH, but I'm not particulary optimistic.
On the other hand bizzard is testing a very violent change with the 1500 750 mins patch, but in the end the idea is to converge toward a smooth solution, what if at release it becomes 8 patch of 1250 minerals or something?
So imho, both solution are bad atm, but I think blizzard one is easier to balance and to optimize...
I can be totally wrong of course and maybe the 2:1 mining is actually the root of all evil in this game, but this old "blizzard is full of crap and don't know how to make a game" is getting old...
It boosts the defense equally. It's a universal income boost, what the attacker gains so gains the defender.
First of all thumbs up for your work guys! As a business analyst myself .. I find your work extremely impressive! I actually enjoyed reading the entire article!
I believe that numbers don't lie, and that the double harvesting system should be tried in LoTV for sure, as the real implementation of this system is the only way to show the true effect on the game .. and hell yeah that is what a beta release is all about! Personally, I find the focus on rewarding the earlier expansion rather than punishing the delayed one is the most important thing in this article.
Blizzard should really consider this change, and should be very proud of such a fan base that is willing to sacrifice such time and effort to improve their beloved game! With such dedicated fans this game will never die!
On April 15 2015 17:06 Highways wrote: Would reducing the amount of nodes per base be a plausible solution?
Say 5 nodes per base instead of 8?
Similar ideas were tried with 7m1g (7 mineral 1 gas) maps (as well other combinations). There have been attempts with mixing rich (gold) patches to balance things out as well. Someone who's followed the discussion since then can probably answer better...
I do personally like those fixes more as they are simpler to understand.
How do you explain to someone that a worker mines twice because it makes the game work better? How do you convince Blizzard to make that change? I think pushing for double mining (at least first) would be a lot better.The advantage DH has over DM (mainly losing less mining time when workers are pulled) doesn't make up for it being "less intuitive" (IMO).
Im not sure about the arguments of DH being less intuitive. Other than worker pairing being gone early on (which no newcomer notices anyway), i don't think people pay enough attention to the workers to actually tell there is a difference at first glance, even though against a good player the game changes massively (Zeromus fucking schools me with this economy because i play too much like HotS and he expands like a madman for example).
Anyone who follows the scene and plays seriously will know that extra bases past the third are really advantageous, and the games will (hopefully) play out differently (and better), while nothing really substancial should change for Johnny Bronze who wants to just make tanks and turrets on 2 bases for 15 minutes.
MMkay, how about we make 10 different kinds of minerals with different params (total amount, yield per trip, simultaneous workers), color code them appropriately and stuff every beta map with a different kind? Beta lasts for half a year, in that time everyone's content with some mineral type they like which makes it into release, everyone happy.
Tests that don't provide alternatives (at least the placebo group which in the current situation would be HotS economy) are not real tests, you know.
On April 15 2015 17:42 Teoita wrote: Im not sure about the arguments of DH being less intuitive. Other than worker pairing being gone early on (which no newcomer notices anyway), i don't think people pay enough attention to the workers to actually tell there is a difference at first glance, even though against a good player the game changes massively (Zeromus fucking schools me with this economy because i play too much like HotS and he expands like a madman for example).
Anyone who follows the scene and plays seriously will know that extra bases past the third are really advantageous, and the games will (hopefully) play out differently (and better), while nothing really substancial should change for Johnny Bronze who wants to just make tanks and turrets on 2 bases for 15 minutes.
Any eco change will bring about a totally new meta. My point is that DM seems like a simpler solution than DH.
*Let me try to see how the mod affects worker behavior first* :D
I agree that a new eco changes the game completely (see the current state of beta), but DM actually isn't a simpler solution than DH because the income levels are so different from HotS at every worker count.
A big reason why we like double harvesting is while the early game is faster and you mine out quicker (as blizzard intends), with extra bases being really advantageous, it's the closest alternative economic model to HotS as far as timings and income once fully saturated, meaning it should also be the easiest to balance.
The key thing isn't individual worker behaviour, but overall worker behavior when mining together on a single base, and how that behavior influences income. The actual mining path might be different (although it's not that different betweem DM and DH), sure, but that's not the important thing.
On April 15 2015 18:56 Teoita wrote: I agree that a new eco changes the game completely (see the current state of beta), but DM actually isn't a simpler solution than DH because the income levels are so different from HotS at every worker count.
A big reason why we like double harvesting is while the early game is faster and you mine out quicker (as blizzard intends), with extra bases being really advantageous, it's the closest alternative economic model to HotS as far as timings and income once fully saturated, meaning it should also be the easiest to balance.
The key thing isn't individual worker behaviour, but overall worker behavior when mining together on a single base, and how that behavior influences income. The actual mining path might be different (although it's not that different betweem DM and DH), sure, but that's not the important thing.
I think it's easier to tweak DM than DH.
DM probably requires a slightly longer mining time to more closely resemble HotS (if that's even needed) but that's an easy change, it doesn't fundamentally change something about the worker behavior.
DH has a few "bugs": Trying to micro workers to keeping them from bouncing to far patches can result in sending the current worker to bounce between harvests isntead. Workers that mine out a patch on their first harvest don't look for a new patch.
These aren't game breaking and simple things like "don't micro your workers" solves the first issue (but feels wrong). I'm sure Blizz can fix workers to look for new patches if the current patch mines out mid harvest but, if they're going to fundamentally change worker behavior is there a better solution?
*This inability to find a new patch could be related to harvesting 2x4 in "Double Harvesting - FRB Edit" mod
e: I was pleased to see that playing the mod did ease some of my concerns regarding worker behavior. Using queued (shift) commands in conjunction with harvest didn't behave any differently.
Maybe it's just cause I'm one of those anal guys that wants to make sure when I send a worker to harvest gas no minerals are lost. Using "return cargo" won't help if a worker has already completed half a mining cycle.
Fantastic breakdown! This needs to be spread beyond TL, not forced down the throats of Blizzards devs mind you, but perfectly placed in a location where a dev might just happen upon it and claim it for his own creation! Far too many good ideas have been lost to the winds because the forums were alight with angry nerds claiming they had the right answer, leading Blizzard to disregard them outright along with the idea they were promoting in the first place.
Anyway, looking forward to many good discussions and ideas to bloom from this article.
ZeromuS, don't you think that macro players like Life, Flash, etc.. would benefit more of this system, then other players? Being rewarded for more bases, means that the player that can manage them better is likely to win.
On April 15 2015 13:24 BronzeKnee wrote: Because it wasn't their idea.
Pride.
as retarded and obnoxious as this idea seems, as the years go by, I think it's the real answer. That, or maybe there's some litigious reason they can't just take the ideas we present them for intellectual property reasons or some other bullshit
Or maybe because we all also assume we are the correct and true in supporting this change.
So... Couldn't you just increase the time it takes to harvest the mineral node from 2.7 seconds to 3 seconds? Keeping everything else the same, wouldn't that accomplish a similar outcome of making it less efficient after you have 1 harvester per mineral node?
Okay so lets assume Blizzard will never use this model A way that the current LotV system can lean towards this model IMO, would be to increase the time a base is on only half the Mineral patches. This can be done by moving the 750 Minerals removed from the small patches into the bigger patches. So 4 patches have 750 Minerals and 4 patches have 2250 Minerals. This way there's the same amount of Minerals pr. base as in HotS, but very rapidly the base will only go to half the income. So that instead of changing the AI and everything, this way it makes more scenarios where it would essentially be 8 workers pr. base for optimal mining, just like in OP's Model. It would help the turtle player as opposed to the current LotV system and it would make it more possible to get into lategame higher economy, instead of 'Rushing into Midgame&stay Midgame forever' LotV model.
The way it would differ from OP's model is that you don't get an explosion of income the second you take a new base with 8 workers, but I fear that is just so hard to achieve, without changing more than Blizzard is willing to.
I wonder if a poll about which economy system people would prefer blizzard to use or perhaps rather test would be a good tool to show blizzard what the community wants. Perhaps even a new thread for that as this is already a bit far along.
On April 15 2015 23:13 Munk200 wrote: So... Couldn't you just increase the time it takes to harvest the mineral node from 2.7 seconds to 3 seconds? Keeping everything else the same, wouldn't that accomplish a similar outcome of making it less efficient after you have 1 harvester per mineral node?
Unfortunately not due to travel time from nexus to the mineral line, the workers will wait 1 full second to mine while the other dude is finishing.
We tried a small change and it made no noticeable difference
On April 16 2015 01:24 Daeracon wrote: I wonder if a poll about which economy system people would prefer blizzard to use or perhaps rather test would be a good tool to show blizzard what the community wants. Perhaps even a new thread for that as this is already a bit far along.
The problem with a poll is that there is always a silent side to the debate.
Unfortunately, I also don't want to just get people on a hype train vote for it and prove it doesn't work.
What I would rather do is continue seeing support from those who want to support this model, and enter into open and respectful debate with those who don't.
I personally think the best solution is going to be somewhere in the middle of what we like and what blizz wants as design goals.
The most we can do is continue to discuss the benefits and positives that come out of the double harvest model due to how it breaks the worker pair.
There might be a better way to break the worker pair in blizz's hands and outside of ours and like i said, some middle ground gets found :D
We just want what is best for SC2 just like blizzard. And all we can do is push our ideas and our reasoning and hope that an open dialogue can occur. And by open i mean back and forth, with the position blizz puts themselves whenever they do something publically, I feel it would be difficult to have a real conversation in public on this idea.
On April 15 2015 18:56 Teoita wrote: I agree that a new eco changes the game completely (see the current state of beta), but DM actually isn't a simpler solution than DH because the income levels are so different from HotS at every worker count.
A big reason why we like double harvesting is while the early game is faster and you mine out quicker (as blizzard intends), with extra bases being really advantageous, it's the closest alternative economic model to HotS as far as timings and income once fully saturated, meaning it should also be the easiest to balance.
The key thing isn't individual worker behaviour, but overall worker behavior when mining together on a single base, and how that behavior influences income. The actual mining path might be different (although it's not that different betweem DM and DH), sure, but that's not the important thing.
I think it's easier to tweak DM than DH.
DM probably requires a slightly longer mining time to more closely resemble HotS (if that's even needed) but that's an easy change, it doesn't fundamentally change something about the worker behavior.
DH has a few "bugs": Trying to micro workers to keeping them from bouncing to far patches can result in sending the current worker to bounce between harvests isntead. Workers that mine out a patch on their first harvest don't look for a new patch.
These aren't game breaking and simple things like "don't micro your workers" solves the first issue (but feels wrong). I'm sure Blizz can fix workers to look for new patches if the current patch mines out mid harvest but, if they're going to fundamentally change worker behavior is there a better solution?
*This inability to find a new patch could be related to harvesting 2x4 in "Double Harvesting - FRB Edit" mod
e: I was pleased to see that playing the mod did ease some of my concerns regarding worker behavior. Using queued (shift) commands in conjunction with harvest didn't behave any differently.
Maybe it's just cause I'm one of those anal guys that wants to make sure when I send a worker to harvest gas no minerals are lost. Using "return cargo" won't help if a worker has already completed half a mining cycle.
The fact that the worker doesnt look for another patch might just be related to the way that lalush implemented the triggers in the mod which may be breaking the "scan" moment after a patch ends. thats all
And I would LOVE for an option to return the basketed 5 minerals prior to going to gas, but there are a lot of times in HotS that people (pros and non pros) send a worker with minerals to the gas geyser. 5 minerals is really inconsequential to lose at all but the absolute highest levels of play and professionals can easily work around that.
Not to say that being able to return the basketted income isn't bad.
On April 15 2015 23:18 ejozl wrote: Okay so lets assume Blizzard will never use this model A way that the current LotV system can lean towards this model IMO, would be to increase the time a base is on only half the Mineral patches. This can be done by moving the 750 Minerals removed from the small patches into the bigger patches. So 4 patches have 750 Minerals and 4 patches have 2250 Minerals. This way there's the same amount of Minerals pr. base as in HotS, but very rapidly the base will only go to half the income. So that instead of changing the AI and everything, this way it makes more scenarios where it would essentially be 8 workers pr. base for optimal mining, just like in OP's Model. It would help the turtle player as opposed to the current LotV system and it would make it more possible to get into lategame higher economy, instead of 'Rushing into Midgame&stay Midgame forever' LotV model.
The way it would differ from OP's model is that you don't get an explosion of income the second you take a new base with 8 workers, but I fear that is just so hard to achieve, without changing more than Blizzard is willing to.
Funnily enough, the best way to break the three base cap with minimal changes is to increase the supply cap I don't think this is the best solution, but it achieves a similar purpose. It means you can keep the same worker:army supply ratio, but have a larger army. This means instead of 64 workers being "optimal" it could be 86 (with total supply ~300) which means that you're now capped at four bases (32 nodes) instead of three (before additional bases do not increase income). Since mains are likely to mine out by the time you're taking a fourth, that necessitates taking a fifth. And hello, we're seeing the desired expansion dynamic.
Of course this has other implications, but those can be balanced as needed.
On April 15 2015 23:18 ejozl wrote: Okay so lets assume Blizzard will never use this model A way that the current LotV system can lean towards this model IMO, would be to increase the time a base is on only half the Mineral patches. This can be done by moving the 750 Minerals removed from the small patches into the bigger patches. So 4 patches have 750 Minerals and 4 patches have 2250 Minerals. This way there's the same amount of Minerals pr. base as in HotS, but very rapidly the base will only go to half the income. So that instead of changing the AI and everything, this way it makes more scenarios where it would essentially be 8 workers pr. base for optimal mining, just like in OP's Model. It would help the turtle player as opposed to the current LotV system and it would make it more possible to get into lategame higher economy, instead of 'Rushing into Midgame&stay Midgame forever' LotV model.
The way it would differ from OP's model is that you don't get an explosion of income the second you take a new base with 8 workers, but I fear that is just so hard to achieve, without changing more than Blizzard is willing to.
Funnily enough, the best way to break the three base cap with minimal changes is to increase the supply cap I don't think this is the best solution, but it achieves a similar purpose. It means you can keep the same worker:army supply ratio, but have a larger army. This means instead of 64 workers being "optimal" it could be 86 (with total supply ~300) which means that you're now capped at four bases (32 nodes) instead of three (before additional bases do not increase income). Since mains are likely to mine out by the time you're taking a fourth, that necessitates taking a fifth. And hello, we're seeing the desired expansion dynamic.
Of course this has other implications, but those can be balanced as needed.
Its the third out, but we still think that if we remove the theoretical cap on minerals through worker pairing you'll see the most diverse gameplay.
I was listening to Zeromus on Remax and I wanted to list the arguments that I heard there, (I haven't read this thread yet, please tell me if it's superfluous), since not all of them were mentioned in the OP.
I felt it was an interesting discussion, more instructive than I thought it would be. I'm so used to promoting these sort of BW economy models that it becomes difficult for me to think critically about them, so I think I've long since lost the ability to come up with meaningful counter arguments. But the people on the show at least had a fresh perspective, even if I would be more likely to agree with Zeromus than with them.
HuK said that by encouraging players to spread out workers you would lose out on some cool moments where a disruptor blows up a mineral line with lots of workers there. He also thought that too high economy would be hard to manage. Nathanias said that spreading out workers reduces some of your defender's advantage since the scv's are so useful defensively. Both of them liked the pressure put on you to constantly expand from the LotV economy and liked that the bases ran out more quickly. Nathanias also added that the resource scarcity with the LotV model prevented three base turtle builds, which he was happy about.
Morrow said he wanted a high base count to translate into a very high economy game with mass production, like in many scenarios in BW and was more positive about the proposed change. Zeromus also said that he heard about LotV games where bases would run out so quickly you would lose the ability to use infrastructure you needed to secure your last base.
Zeromus wanted to remind people that you could reduce minerals per patch with double harvesting as well, so that it was possible to find common ground between proponents of the DH & LotV model.
A goal was to create a LotV extension mod with double harvesting in order to test the system. HuK felt conflicted about this idea, since he thought it would lead to ambiguous and confusing feedback.
On April 16 2015 02:41 Grumbels wrote: I was listening to Zeromus on Remax and I wanted to list the arguments that I heard there, (I haven't read this thread yet, please tell me if it's superfluous), since not all of them were mentioned in the OP.
I felt it was an interesting discussion, more instructive than I thought it would be. I'm so used to promoting these sort of BW economy models that it becomes difficult for me to think critically about them, so I think I've long since lost the ability to come up with meaningful counter arguments. But the people on the show at least had a fresh perspective, even if I would be more likely to agree with Zeromus than with them.
HuK said that by encouraging players to spread out workers you would lose out on some cool moments where a disruptor blows up a mineral line with lots of workers there. He also thought that too high economy would be hard to manage. Nathanias said that spreading out workers reduces some of your defender's advantage since the scv's are so useful defensively. Both of them liked the pressure put on you to constantly expand from the LotV economy and liked that the bases ran out more quickly. Nathanias also added that the resource scarcity with the LotV model prevented three base turtle builds, which he was happy about.
Morrow said he wanted a high base count to translate into a very high economy game with mass production, like in many scenarios in BW and was more positive about the proposed change. Zeromus also said that he heard about games where bases would run out so quickly you would lose the ability to use infrastructure you needed to secure a new base.
Zeromus wanted to remind people that you could reduce minerals per patch with double harvesting as well, so that it was possible to find common ground between proponents of the DH & LotV model.
A goal was to create a LotV extension mod with double harvesting in order to test the system. HuK felt conflicted about this idea, since he thought it would lead to ambiguous and confusing feedback.
I'm confused--my understanding was the only difference between Double harvesting and Double Mining models had to do whether the worker "baskets" half the minerals it mines. From my understanding, this shouldn't impact the mineral curves--it simply solves the problem of pulling workers defensively not being the equivalent to pulling 2 HOTS workers. Can you clarify why the DH and DM curves look different on that graph?
I'm confused--my understanding was the only difference between Double harvesting and Double Mining models had to do whether the worker "baskets" half the minerals it mines. From my understanding, this shouldn't impact the mineral curves--it simply solves the problem of pulling workers defensively not being the equivalent to pulling 2 HOTS workers. Can you clarify why the DH and DM curves look different on that graph?
Due to the way the AI works in double harvesting, the workers will bounce a bit more earlier than in double mining. The nice side effect is that double harvest is more linear and consistent an income curve and its also less harsh an overall income increase as you reach the 16 worker HotS softcap for mining
On April 16 2015 02:41 Grumbels wrote: I was listening to Zeromus on Remax and I wanted to list the arguments that I heard there, (I haven't read this thread yet, please tell me if it's superfluous), since not all of them were mentioned in the OP.
I felt it was an interesting discussion, more instructive than I thought it would be. I'm so used to promoting these sort of BW economy models that it becomes difficult for me to think critically about them, so I think I've long since lost the ability to come up with meaningful counter arguments. But the people on the show at least had a fresh perspective, even if I would be more likely to agree with Zeromus than with them.
HuK said that by encouraging players to spread out workers you would lose out on some cool moments where a disruptor blows up a mineral line with lots of workers there. He also thought that too high economy would be hard to manage. Nathanias said that spreading out workers reduces some of your defender's advantage since the scv's are so useful defensively. Both of them liked the pressure put on you to constantly expand from the LotV economy and liked that the bases ran out more quickly. Nathanias also added that the resource scarcity with the LotV model prevented three base turtle builds, which he was happy about.
Morrow said he wanted a high base count to translate into a very high economy game with mass production, like in many scenarios in BW and was more positive about the proposed change. Zeromus also said that he heard about games where bases would run out so quickly you would lose the ability to use infrastructure you needed to secure a new base.
Zeromus wanted to remind people that you could reduce minerals per patch with double harvesting as well, so that it was possible to find common ground between proponents of the DH & LotV model.
A goal was to create a LotV extension mod with double harvesting in order to test the system. HuK felt conflicted about this idea, since he thought it would lead to ambiguous and confusing feedback.
We have taken huks comments, collated them for the most part and aim to address them in a new article next week. I need the weekend to write it
Please do a good job (like I know you will) with your address to HuK's comments.
I respect HuK's opinion, but I have a feeling Blizzard is just going to do something like take his comments as what pros say about the matter and not do anything in the end. Still watching the episode, though.
Anyway, you (all) are doing an awesome job with getting this out there! I know you have been trying to dispel some misconceptions about the system and its similarities/differences from BW/HotS/LotV. Also, just how the economic system should come first before all of this balance talk. Comeback potential is improved, too.
Morrow said he wanted a high base count to translate into a very high economy game with mass production, like in many scenarios in BW and was more positive about the proposed change. Zeromus also said that he heard about LotV games where bases would run out so quickly you would lose the ability to use infrastructure you needed to secure your last base.
I liked what Morrow said here. LOTV currently lacks the late-game income rate since your busy taking bases all the time, and thus find your self in a constant midgame.
I wonder whether these 3 changes could help with that
(1) Increase mineral income --> early game + higher income late game (would adress the "I am broke all the time"-feeling). (2) Change mineral pathes to 2250/750 from 1500/750 --> You obtain higher income as you get more bases
Late game --> Much higher income rate. Snowball effect --> Reduced as you have more income you can fall back on if you lose a base.
Morrow said he wanted a high base count to translate into a very high economy game with mass production, like in many scenarios in BW and was more positive about the proposed change. Zeromus also said that he heard about LotV games where bases would run out so quickly you would lose the ability to use infrastructure you needed to secure your last base.
I liked what Morrow said here. LOTV currently lacks the late-game income rate since your busy taking bases all the time, and thus find your self in a constant midgame.
I wonder whether these 3 changes could help with that
(1) Increase mineral income --> early game + higher income late game (would adress the "I am broke all the time"-feeling). (2) Change mineral pathes to 2250/750 from 1500/750 --> You obtain higher income as you get more bases
Late game --> Much higher income rate. Snowball effect --> Reduced as you have more income you can fall back on if you lose a base.
No matter what the "forever mid game" is a result of the half patches.
And if you just have the big patches be too large, you will end up with a 24 mineral node cap being reached easily and maintained for a new four base turtle in LotV once the meta settles.
Maybe you already addressed this but I'll ask anyway...
If Blizzard was to change the economy they could obviously change the worker AI and not have to use an editor "hack" like you guys to get at either DM or DH. Given that, why wouldn't they instead adopt something that would lower worker efficiency with the number of workers added to a node? For example, the first worker gets 100% efficiency like now and like you propose. When a second worker is added, and they are paired, instead of them both getting 100% like now, maybe they both get 80% efficiency. No need to double harvest, just become less efficient.
I throw that out as a single possibility and not as a proposal per se. The real point is, they can change the AI. Your real problem seems to be with the 2:1 efficiency. Do you really care that it has to be 1:1 or can it be some quadratic fall off as workers are added? Something else? What other ideas are there if you allowed yourself to change the AI?
Remember, you aren't pitching a solution for a SC2 MOD, you are pitching a solution for Blizzard Devs to implement.
Obviously they could do that as well; what we did is just show that even with very simple tools you can drastically change the economy (and gameplay that results from it).
And if you just have the big patches be too large, you will end up with a 24 mineral node cap being reached easily and maintained for a new four base turtle in LotV once the meta settles.
But you can never remove the cap. What's the difference between 8 patches with 1 on each vs 4 patches with 2 on each. If it's the same number of bases required and the same income?
I agree with a lot of what they're saying on the Late Game. We can't just let this idea sit, we need showmatches ASAP, we need data and a widespread community effort more than just linking the article to Blizzard since we all know that's not gonna do a damn thing. If we can't SHOW Blizzard that this is a good idea in more than just an article and a few backers, they'll never consider it.
And if you just have the big patches be too large, you will end up with a 24 mineral node cap being reached easily and maintained for a new four base turtle in LotV once the meta settles.
But you can never remove the cap. What's the difference between 8 patches with 1 on each vs 4 patches with 2 on each. If it's the same number of bases required and the same income?
In the end it still doesnt address the 2:1 pairing issue the only way to deal with this is through AI changes or tricks
And if you just have the big patches be too large, you will end up with a 24 mineral node cap being reached easily and maintained for a new four base turtle in LotV once the meta settles.
But you can never remove the cap. What's the difference between 8 patches with 1 on each vs 4 patches with 2 on each. If it's the same number of bases required and the same income?
In the end it still doesnt address the 2:1 pairing issue the only way to deal with this is through AI changes or tricks
I have updated the extension mod to include the reduced minerals and gas per base to be more in line with the "lower plateau" in line with blizzards design direction (for now, pending testing we can return more to the mineral lines and gas).
Gas is now at 2250 down from 2500 in each geyser
Patches have 1350 total down from 1500
Minerals in bases should take just under 17 minutes to mine out with 16 workers now (down from 19 minutes in standard hots). -- assuming no mules --
Extension Mod is called: Double Harvesting (TeamLiquid)
On April 16 2015 09:23 ZeromuS wrote: I have updated the extension mod to include the reduced minerals and gas per base to be more in line with the "lower plateau" in line with blizzards design direction (for now, pending testing we can return more to the mineral lines and gas).
Good work! Ultimately though, I hope that the change in harvesting procedure obsolesces Blizzard's desire for faster mined-out bases. Have you seen many high level players testing it out yet?
On April 16 2015 09:23 ZeromuS wrote: I have updated the extension mod to include the reduced minerals and gas per base to be more in line with the "lower plateau" in line with blizzards design direction (for now, pending testing we can return more to the mineral lines and gas).
Good work! Ultimately though, I hope that the change in harvesting procedure obsolesces Blizzard's desire for faster mined-out bases. Have you seen many high level players testing it out yet?
Still early days and with wcs qualis we won't see many trying it until the qualifiers are over.
I like how affecting efficiency of mining prevents players from sitting back contently on their count of bases. Example: TvZ, where Terran is striving to get to 3 bases, then a player sits there and dukes it out for x amount of time... because they can. Similar scenario for a Zerg on 4 bases in the same match up. So seeing a change would be nice. Yet part of me just doesn't like affecting how the workers mine the minerals... just a gut feeling. In the end it's not worth bashing till tried, but in the meantime I also thought, "What if you could change the rate at which mineral patches deplete at a greater than linear rate?" Lets say any mineral patch, starting with 1500 minerals, is initially mined at 6 minerals per harvest. When that same mineral patch hits 1000 minerals it is then only mined at 5 minerals per harvest, and so on to 4 minerals per harvest for the remaining life of the patch. You could even have some mining sights on the map with the opposite effect for a twist (4 to 5 to 6). While the idea doesn't remove the auto pairing of workers and their own mining efficiency, it does improve efficiency to mine on more bases with less workers. Having mineral patches with a value changing over the course of their life would give players more strategic options as to when to take bases and how much they value a base due to varying surges of income. Well it's just an idea, but I wanted to bounce it off a thread like this to hear the opinions of everyone else. I liked the direction Blizzard wanted to go concerning economy in LotV, but I would agree that the change has only reduced the variety of possible strategies.
Maybe it's just me, but I found that the way workers running around in the double harvest model is a little bit annoying to watch. While I do understand the math is solid, but from a aesthetics point of view, current SC2 model does present a clean mineral line for the player. Probably this is the same “tyranny of the spectator” dwf mentioned in his article that made blizzard reluctant to change it?
On April 16 2015 12:46 Yiome wrote: Maybe it's just me, but I found that the way workers running around in the double harvest model is a little bit annoying to watch. While I do understand the math is solid, but from a aesthetics point of view, current SC2 model does present a clean mineral line for the player. Probably this is the same “tyranny of the spectator” dwf mentioned in his article that made blizzard reluctant to change it?
Even if its not pleasing, if it results in a better gameplay experience thats the key thing.
I mean it is a GAME after all and it should be fun/rewarding to play.
And I really think you shouldn't put a viewer experience (especially for aesthetics of how workers move In a mineral line) above the experience of the person playing it.
If the outcome of bouncy workers is a lot more action on the map and diverse play options then let's do it.
In addition, it's not like observers in casted tournaments games are spending their time staring at fully saturated mineral lines (over bouncing the camera from action to action). I doubt many spectators would much care about the visual aesthetic of synchronized paired workers vs bouncing workers if they even noticed.
Agreed. If you think of how utterly atrocious deathballs look and the negative effects they have on gameplay, I think you should be able to make this minor concession for something that potentially greatly benefits gameplay.
Played the MOD, it's actually insane how fast you CAN expand. Played Protoss and took every expansion on Belshir Vestige before my main was even close to mining out. But you can feel that it's not how SC2 was designed, as with Chrono Boost, Inject and MULE's you can saturate bases so much quicker. I think Zerg would become hyper aggressive as massive amounts of Drones become less efficient and you still have so much Larvae.
On April 16 2015 20:27 ejozl wrote: Played the MOD, it's actually insane how fast you CAN expand. Played Protoss and took every expansion on Belshir Vestige before my main was even close to mining out. But you can feel that it's not how SC2 was designed, as with Chrono Boost, Inject and MULE's you can saturate bases so much quicker. I think Zerg would become hyper aggressive as massive amounts of Drones become less efficient and you still have so much Larvae.
Im of the opinion that chrono boost, inject and mules really dont belong in the game.
But it might be heresy to suggest that at this point.
On April 16 2015 20:27 ejozl wrote: Played the MOD, it's actually insane how fast you CAN expand. Played Protoss and took every expansion on Belshir Vestige before my main was even close to mining out. But you can feel that it's not how SC2 was designed, as with Chrono Boost, Inject and MULE's you can saturate bases so much quicker. I think Zerg would become hyper aggressive as massive amounts of Drones become less efficient and you still have so much Larvae.
Im of the opinion that chrono boost, inject and mules really dont belong in the game.
But it might be heresy to suggest that at this point.
I think they're very nice solutions to "solve" the question of what to replace manual rally with. You want to have players invested in managing their economy, you want to add some complexities to managing large economies. But you don't want to have the clearly archaic manual rally, even if it does have nice gameplay properties. Blizzard had the potential here to truly modernize the game and create new systems that can adequately replace the void left by removing manual rally, without the downsides.
The main problem with macro mechanics is that they're just too powerful and that the design isn't terribly inspiring. Inject larva, for instance, at least helps with the problem of forcing zerg into expanding to keep up production, since the queen functions as a larva generator. But the ability is too powerful and it's probably more punishing than even manual rally for new players. Mules also lead to issues when you have multiple "old" Orbitals stripmining a new base, or with some scv all-ins.
Another example of potential to modernize the game is the question of replacing limited unit selection. I would consider marines vs banelings / infestors to be an example of Blizzard succeeding in removing archaic interface limits while keeping beneficial gameplay properties (e.g. more units = more difficult to control). But there are other places where the unlimited unit selection seems broken, when you have death balls that can be controlled with one click.
On some level it's more difficult to design an RTS these days, because the interface limitations of older games were very useful for making the game easy to balance and for having powerful abilities that aren't broken because smart cast exists and so on. You can be more ambitious and have a modern interface, but you need to compensate for this with higher skill in development. Because if a game is easier to design, typically it'll end up as a better game, that's a simple idea which I think holds true for SC2 vs BW. Blizzard set themselves some challenges for SC2 (or maybe they were ignorant of such things, I don't know) and they couldn't completely live up to the expectations, since macro mechanics are not a complete success, since the new pathfinding and economy are controversial etc.
On April 16 2015 07:48 anessie wrote: While a glance at the article shows impressive detail you don't reach any less (time) invested players by adding a page long conclusion.
Did anyone attempt to sum it up in 3 lines?
Allowing 2 workers to mine 1 patch at 100% means that under the worker cap (as dictated by the meta) getting more than 3 bases doesn't provide much more income.
Changing the way workers harvest can result in similar income on 2 base, but significantly better income for taking more bases.
On April 16 2015 20:27 ejozl wrote: Played the MOD, it's actually insane how fast you CAN expand. Played Protoss and took every expansion on Belshir Vestige before my main was even close to mining out. But you can feel that it's not how SC2 was designed, as with Chrono Boost, Inject and MULE's you can saturate bases so much quicker. I think Zerg would become hyper aggressive as massive amounts of Drones become less efficient and you still have so much Larvae.
Im of the opinion that chrono boost, inject and mules really dont belong in the game.
But it might be heresy to suggest that at this point.
I think they're very nice solutions to "solve" the question of what to replace manual rally with. You want to have players invested in managing their economy, you want to add some complexities to managing large economies. But you don't want to have the clearly archaic manual rally, even if it does have nice gameplay properties. Blizzard had the potential here to truly modernize the game and create new systems that can adequately replace the void left by removing manual rally, without the downsides.
The main problem with macro mechanics is that they're just too powerful and that the design isn't terribly inspiring. Inject larva, for instance, at least helps with the problem of forcing zerg into expanding to keep up production, since the queen functions as a larva generator. But the ability is too powerful and it's probably more punishing than even manual rally for new players. Mules also lead to issues when you have multiple "old" Orbitals stripmining a new base, or with some scv all-ins.
Another example of potential to modernize the game is the question of replacing limited unit selection. I would consider marines vs banelings / infestors to be an example of Blizzard succeeding in removing archaic interface limits while keeping beneficial gameplay properties (e.g. more units = more difficult to control). But there are other places where the unlimited unit selection seems broken, when you have death balls that can be controlled with one click.
On some level it's more difficult to design an RTS these days, because the interface limitations of older games were very useful for making the game easy to balance and for having powerful abilities that aren't broken because smart cast exists and so on. You can be more ambitious and have a modern interface, but you need to compensate for this with higher skill in development. Because if a game is easier to design, typically it'll end up as a better game, that's a simple idea which I think holds true for SC2 vs BW. Blizzard set themselves some challenges for SC2 (or maybe they were ignorant of such things, I don't know) and they couldn't completely live up to the expectations, since macro mechanics are not a complete success, since the new pathfinding and economy are controversial etc.
I think you are absolutely right. At this point though, I fear sc2 can't be 'fixed' unless they just choose to rework it from the ground up, which they won't do.
On April 16 2015 20:27 ejozl wrote: Played the MOD, it's actually insane how fast you CAN expand. Played Protoss and took every expansion on Belshir Vestige before my main was even close to mining out. But you can feel that it's not how SC2 was designed, as with Chrono Boost, Inject and MULE's you can saturate bases so much quicker. I think Zerg would become hyper aggressive as massive amounts of Drones become less efficient and you still have so much Larvae.
Im of the opinion that chrono boost, inject and mules really dont belong in the game.
But it might be heresy to suggest that at this point.
I think they're very nice solutions to "solve" the question of what to replace manual rally with. You want to have players invested in managing their economy, you want to add some complexities to managing large economies. But you don't want to have the clearly archaic manual rally, even if it does have nice gameplay properties. Blizzard had the potential here to truly modernize the game and create new systems that can adequately replace the void left by removing manual rally, without the downsides.
The main problem with macro mechanics is that they're just too powerful and that the design isn't terribly inspiring. Inject larva, for instance, at least helps with the problem of forcing zerg into expanding to keep up production, since the queen functions as a larva generator. But the ability is too powerful and it's probably more punishing than even manual rally for new players. Mules also lead to issues when you have multiple "old" Orbitals stripmining a new base, or with some scv all-ins.
Another example of potential to modernize the game is the question of replacing limited unit selection. I would consider marines vs banelings / infestors to be an example of Blizzard succeeding in removing archaic interface limits while keeping beneficial gameplay properties (e.g. more units = more difficult to control). But there are other places where the unlimited unit selection seems broken, when you have death balls that can be controlled with one click.
On some level it's more difficult to design an RTS these days, because the interface limitations of older games were very useful for making the game easy to balance and for having powerful abilities that aren't broken because smart cast exists and so on. You can be more ambitious and have a modern interface, but you need to compensate for this with higher skill in development. Because if a game is easier to design, typically it'll end up as a better game, that's a simple idea which I think holds true for SC2 vs BW. Blizzard set themselves some challenges for SC2 (or maybe they were ignorant of such things, I don't know) and they couldn't completely live up to the expectations, since macro mechanics are not a complete success, since the new pathfinding and economy are controversial etc.
I think you are absolutely right. At this point though, I fear sc2 can't be 'fixed' unless they just choose to rework it from the ground up, which they won't do.
Nah, Blizzard just hasn't been very good at creating micro interactions. If anything, Marines vs Banelings shows that micro indeed can be interesting in the game. Its just about being good enough at the implementation-proces.
On April 16 2015 20:27 ejozl wrote: Played the MOD, it's actually insane how fast you CAN expand. Played Protoss and took every expansion on Belshir Vestige before my main was even close to mining out. But you can feel that it's not how SC2 was designed, as with Chrono Boost, Inject and MULE's you can saturate bases so much quicker. I think Zerg would become hyper aggressive as massive amounts of Drones become less efficient and you still have so much Larvae.
Im of the opinion that chrono boost, inject and mules really dont belong in the game.
But it might be heresy to suggest that at this point.
I think they're very nice solutions to "solve" the question of what to replace manual rally with. You want to have players invested in managing their economy, you want to add some complexities to managing large economies. But you don't want to have the clearly archaic manual rally, even if it does have nice gameplay properties. Blizzard had the potential here to truly modernize the game and create new systems that can adequately replace the void left by removing manual rally, without the downsides.
The main problem with macro mechanics is that they're just too powerful and that the design isn't terribly inspiring. Inject larva, for instance, at least helps with the problem of forcing zerg into expanding to keep up production, since the queen functions as a larva generator. But the ability is too powerful and it's probably more punishing than even manual rally for new players. Mules also lead to issues when you have multiple "old" Orbitals stripmining a new base, or with some scv all-ins.
Another example of potential to modernize the game is the question of replacing limited unit selection. I would consider marines vs banelings / infestors to be an example of Blizzard succeeding in removing archaic interface limits while keeping beneficial gameplay properties (e.g. more units = more difficult to control). But there are other places where the unlimited unit selection seems broken, when you have death balls that can be controlled with one click.
On some level it's more difficult to design an RTS these days, because the interface limitations of older games were very useful for making the game easy to balance and for having powerful abilities that aren't broken because smart cast exists and so on. You can be more ambitious and have a modern interface, but you need to compensate for this with higher skill in development. Because if a game is easier to design, typically it'll end up as a better game, that's a simple idea which I think holds true for SC2 vs BW. Blizzard set themselves some challenges for SC2 (or maybe they were ignorant of such things, I don't know) and they couldn't completely live up to the expectations, since macro mechanics are not a complete success, since the new pathfinding and economy are controversial etc.
I think you are absolutely right. At this point though, I fear sc2 can't be 'fixed' unless they just choose to rework it from the ground up, which they won't do.
Nah, Blizzard just hasn't been very good at creating micro interactions. If anything, Marines vs Banelings shows that micro indeed can be interesting in the game. Its just about being good enough at the implementation-proces.
If you look at the things theyre doing now (cyclone, adept etc) then I have little trust in them being able to recreate interesting micro mechanics like marines vs baneling in other matchups.
On April 16 2015 20:27 ejozl wrote: Played the MOD, it's actually insane how fast you CAN expand. Played Protoss and took every expansion on Belshir Vestige before my main was even close to mining out. But you can feel that it's not how SC2 was designed, as with Chrono Boost, Inject and MULE's you can saturate bases so much quicker. I think Zerg would become hyper aggressive as massive amounts of Drones become less efficient and you still have so much Larvae.
Im of the opinion that chrono boost, inject and mules really dont belong in the game.
But it might be heresy to suggest that at this point.
I think they're very nice solutions to "solve" the question of what to replace manual rally with. You want to have players invested in managing their economy, you want to add some complexities to managing large economies. But you don't want to have the clearly archaic manual rally, even if it does have nice gameplay properties. Blizzard had the potential here to truly modernize the game and create new systems that can adequately replace the void left by removing manual rally, without the downsides.
The main problem with macro mechanics is that they're just too powerful and that the design isn't terribly inspiring. Inject larva, for instance, at least helps with the problem of forcing zerg into expanding to keep up production, since the queen functions as a larva generator. But the ability is too powerful and it's probably more punishing than even manual rally for new players. Mules also lead to issues when you have multiple "old" Orbitals stripmining a new base, or with some scv all-ins.
Another example of potential to modernize the game is the question of replacing limited unit selection. I would consider marines vs banelings / infestors to be an example of Blizzard succeeding in removing archaic interface limits while keeping beneficial gameplay properties (e.g. more units = more difficult to control). But there are other places where the unlimited unit selection seems broken, when you have death balls that can be controlled with one click.
On some level it's more difficult to design an RTS these days, because the interface limitations of older games were very useful for making the game easy to balance and for having powerful abilities that aren't broken because smart cast exists and so on. You can be more ambitious and have a modern interface, but you need to compensate for this with higher skill in development. Because if a game is easier to design, typically it'll end up as a better game, that's a simple idea which I think holds true for SC2 vs BW. Blizzard set themselves some challenges for SC2 (or maybe they were ignorant of such things, I don't know) and they couldn't completely live up to the expectations, since macro mechanics are not a complete success, since the new pathfinding and economy are controversial etc.
I think you are absolutely right. At this point though, I fear sc2 can't be 'fixed' unless they just choose to rework it from the ground up, which they won't do.
Nah, Blizzard just hasn't been very good at creating micro interactions. If anything, Marines vs Banelings shows that micro indeed can be interesting in the game. Its just about being good enough at the implementation-proces.
If you look at the things theyre doing now (cyclone, adept etc) then I have little trust in them being able to recreate interesting micro mechanics like marines vs baneling in other matchups.
Meh Distupor and Ravager can be pretty fun though. But in general Blizzard has a tendency to think that its fun when one race can completely outmicro the opponent without any outmicro. Catz mentioned this on the Late game; "Its not fun when the only thing you can do for one of the races is to minimize damage". Instead, micro needs to do be a twoway thing, and stuff like Cyclones with inifinitive kiting, Siege Tank drops early game and Warp Prism 6 pick up range are just one-way things.
Then there is the hardcounter issue. Mutalisk --> Get Phoenix or die. Ultralisks --> Get Cyclones or die. Or what about their mysterious love for press-a-button ablities? VR and Immortals???
I feel when I look at Blizzard, they do some great things once in a while, but each time they act its like 1 great thing followed by 3 awfull implementations. I really don't know whats going on there. Starcraft 2 could have so much potential in my opinion. Both from a playing experience and an esport.
On April 16 2015 20:27 ejozl wrote: Played the MOD, it's actually insane how fast you CAN expand. Played Protoss and took every expansion on Belshir Vestige before my main was even close to mining out. But you can feel that it's not how SC2 was designed, as with Chrono Boost, Inject and MULE's you can saturate bases so much quicker. I think Zerg would become hyper aggressive as massive amounts of Drones become less efficient and you still have so much Larvae.
Im of the opinion that chrono boost, inject and mules really dont belong in the game.
But it might be heresy to suggest that at this point.
I think they're very nice solutions to "solve" the question of what to replace manual rally with. You want to have players invested in managing their economy, you want to add some complexities to managing large economies. But you don't want to have the clearly archaic manual rally, even if it does have nice gameplay properties. Blizzard had the potential here to truly modernize the game and create new systems that can adequately replace the void left by removing manual rally, without the downsides.
The main problem with macro mechanics is that they're just too powerful and that the design isn't terribly inspiring. Inject larva, for instance, at least helps with the problem of forcing zerg into expanding to keep up production, since the queen functions as a larva generator. But the ability is too powerful and it's probably more punishing than even manual rally for new players. Mules also lead to issues when you have multiple "old" Orbitals stripmining a new base, or with some scv all-ins.
Another example of potential to modernize the game is the question of replacing limited unit selection. I would consider marines vs banelings / infestors to be an example of Blizzard succeeding in removing archaic interface limits while keeping beneficial gameplay properties (e.g. more units = more difficult to control). But there are other places where the unlimited unit selection seems broken, when you have death balls that can be controlled with one click.
On some level it's more difficult to design an RTS these days, because the interface limitations of older games were very useful for making the game easy to balance and for having powerful abilities that aren't broken because smart cast exists and so on. You can be more ambitious and have a modern interface, but you need to compensate for this with higher skill in development. Because if a game is easier to design, typically it'll end up as a better game, that's a simple idea which I think holds true for SC2 vs BW. Blizzard set themselves some challenges for SC2 (or maybe they were ignorant of such things, I don't know) and they couldn't completely live up to the expectations, since macro mechanics are not a complete success, since the new pathfinding and economy are controversial etc.
As someone who is first a player, and not so much a competitor I don't think this is really that necessary. I think managing economy is a very singleplayer-esque experience, that after you have "figured it out", it becomes tedious. Like you say with injects, there is no decision behind it, even though they tried with energy tension on queens, there just isn't one most of the time. And even with the Mule/Scan dynamic, it is still mostly a tedious task to drop mules and then you sometimes cut one for a scan.
I think these sorts of mechanics are something that on the plus side: - raise the skill ceiling - potentially create interesting dynamics
but on the negative side - raise the skill floor - are very tedious and not optional
I think RTS games could very well do without them as there is still a lot of stuff you have to manage in your bases without them. But most of those - like building placement, building choices, base defense - are much more interesting and dynamic than production and mining mechanics.
Personally, I consider these sorts of mechanics them relics from a time in which the RTS genre was mostly about singleplayer and closer connected to economy simulation games.
On April 16 2015 20:27 ejozl wrote: Played the MOD, it's actually insane how fast you CAN expand. Played Protoss and took every expansion on Belshir Vestige before my main was even close to mining out. But you can feel that it's not how SC2 was designed, as with Chrono Boost, Inject and MULE's you can saturate bases so much quicker. I think Zerg would become hyper aggressive as massive amounts of Drones become less efficient and you still have so much Larvae.
Im of the opinion that chrono boost, inject and mules really dont belong in the game.
But it might be heresy to suggest that at this point.
I think they're very nice solutions to "solve" the question of what to replace manual rally with. You want to have players invested in managing their economy, you want to add some complexities to managing large economies. But you don't want to have the clearly archaic manual rally, even if it does have nice gameplay properties. Blizzard had the potential here to truly modernize the game and create new systems that can adequately replace the void left by removing manual rally, without the downsides.
The main problem with macro mechanics is that they're just too powerful and that the design isn't terribly inspiring. Inject larva, for instance, at least helps with the problem of forcing zerg into expanding to keep up production, since the queen functions as a larva generator. But the ability is too powerful and it's probably more punishing than even manual rally for new players. Mules also lead to issues when you have multiple "old" Orbitals stripmining a new base, or with some scv all-ins.
Another example of potential to modernize the game is the question of replacing limited unit selection. I would consider marines vs banelings / infestors to be an example of Blizzard succeeding in removing archaic interface limits while keeping beneficial gameplay properties (e.g. more units = more difficult to control). But there are other places where the unlimited unit selection seems broken, when you have death balls that can be controlled with one click.
On some level it's more difficult to design an RTS these days, because the interface limitations of older games were very useful for making the game easy to balance and for having powerful abilities that aren't broken because smart cast exists and so on. You can be more ambitious and have a modern interface, but you need to compensate for this with higher skill in development. Because if a game is easier to design, typically it'll end up as a better game, that's a simple idea which I think holds true for SC2 vs BW. Blizzard set themselves some challenges for SC2 (or maybe they were ignorant of such things, I don't know) and they couldn't completely live up to the expectations, since macro mechanics are not a complete success, since the new pathfinding and economy are controversial etc.
As someone who is first a player, and not so much a competitor I don't think this is really that necessary. I think managing economy is a very singleplayer-esque experience, that after you have "figured it out", it becomes tedious. Like you say with injects, there is no decision behind it, even though they tried with energy tension on queens, there just isn't one most of the time. And even with the Mule/Scan dynamic, it is still mostly a tedious task to drop mules and then you sometimes cut one for a scan.
I think these sorts of mechanics are something that on the plus side: - raise the skill ceiling - potentially create interesting dynamics
but on the negative side - raise the skill floor - are very tedious and not optional
I think RTS games could very well do without them as there is still a lot of stuff you have to manage in your bases without them. But most of those - like building placement, building choices, base defense - are much more interesting and dynamic than production and mining mechanics.
Personally, I consider these sorts of mechanics them relics from a time in which the RTS genre was mostly about singleplayer and closer connected to economy simulation games.
It's not even a problem of managing economy. These boosters like mules and larva inject just make sc2 hyperfast when it really doesnt need to be.
Its ridiculous that terran can make 4 cc's and drop 15 mules on a base and start mining with 2k minerals per minute. Its ridiculous that zerg can have 60 larva at the ready to turn into units instantly. I guess protoss chrono boost is the least of these, but still.
I dont think these things add to the game at all. They take away from it. You say that you have to manage your economy more when these things exist, but what if they didnt? Would you really have to spend less time on your economy? It seems to me like lategame this things actually make it way easier for a player.
On April 16 2015 22:22 Hider wrote: Catz mentioned this on the Late game; "Its not fun when the only thing you can do for one of the races is to minimize damage".
That is well said by Catz. Can we finally remove the Widow Mine now and buff Siege Tanks? Invisible units dealing AOE burst damage that kill units in one shot is a pretty ridiculous mechanic.
While the Lurker is invisible, it doesn't kill units in a single shot (unless you have a large group, but that is a big commitment).
On April 16 2015 23:00 Big J wrote:
I think RTS games could very well do without them as there is still a lot of stuff you have to manage in your bases without them. But most of those - like building placement, building choices, base defense - are much more interesting and dynamic than production and mining mechanics.
That is a great point. I feel like the IQ in this forum is about 30 points higher than any other forum anywhere. I'm actually learning.
Base design is something should be more heavily rewarded.
On April 16 2015 20:27 ejozl wrote: Played the MOD, it's actually insane how fast you CAN expand. Played Protoss and took every expansion on Belshir Vestige before my main was even close to mining out. But you can feel that it's not how SC2 was designed, as with Chrono Boost, Inject and MULE's you can saturate bases so much quicker. I think Zerg would become hyper aggressive as massive amounts of Drones become less efficient and you still have so much Larvae.
Im of the opinion that chrono boost, inject and mules really dont belong in the game.
But it might be heresy to suggest that at this point.
I think they're very nice solutions to "solve" the question of what to replace manual rally with. You want to have players invested in managing their economy, you want to add some complexities to managing large economies. But you don't want to have the clearly archaic manual rally, even if it does have nice gameplay properties. Blizzard had the potential here to truly modernize the game and create new systems that can adequately replace the void left by removing manual rally, without the downsides.
The main problem with macro mechanics is that they're just too powerful and that the design isn't terribly inspiring. Inject larva, for instance, at least helps with the problem of forcing zerg into expanding to keep up production, since the queen functions as a larva generator. But the ability is too powerful and it's probably more punishing than even manual rally for new players. Mules also lead to issues when you have multiple "old" Orbitals stripmining a new base, or with some scv all-ins.
Another example of potential to modernize the game is the question of replacing limited unit selection. I would consider marines vs banelings / infestors to be an example of Blizzard succeeding in removing archaic interface limits while keeping beneficial gameplay properties (e.g. more units = more difficult to control). But there are other places where the unlimited unit selection seems broken, when you have death balls that can be controlled with one click.
On some level it's more difficult to design an RTS these days, because the interface limitations of older games were very useful for making the game easy to balance and for having powerful abilities that aren't broken because smart cast exists and so on. You can be more ambitious and have a modern interface, but you need to compensate for this with higher skill in development. Because if a game is easier to design, typically it'll end up as a better game, that's a simple idea which I think holds true for SC2 vs BW. Blizzard set themselves some challenges for SC2 (or maybe they were ignorant of such things, I don't know) and they couldn't completely live up to the expectations, since macro mechanics are not a complete success, since the new pathfinding and economy are controversial etc.
As someone who is first a player, and not so much a competitor I don't think this is really that necessary. I think managing economy is a very singleplayer-esque experience, that after you have "figured it out", it becomes tedious. Like you say with injects, there is no decision behind it, even though they tried with energy tension on queens, there just isn't one most of the time. And even with the Mule/Scan dynamic, it is still mostly a tedious task to drop mules and then you sometimes cut one for a scan.
I think these sorts of mechanics are something that on the plus side: - raise the skill ceiling - potentially create interesting dynamics
but on the negative side - raise the skill floor - are very tedious and not optional
I think RTS games could very well do without them as there is still a lot of stuff you have to manage in your bases without them. But most of those - like building placement, building choices, base defense - are much more interesting and dynamic than production and mining mechanics.
Personally, I consider these sorts of mechanics them relics from a time in which the RTS genre was mostly about singleplayer and closer connected to economy simulation games.
It's not even a problem of managing economy. These boosters like mules and larva inject just make sc2 hyperfast when it really doesnt need to be.
Its ridiculous that terran can make 4 cc's and drop 15 mules on a base and start mining with 2k minerals per minute. Its ridiculous that zerg can have 60 larva at the ready to turn into units instantly. I guess protoss chrono boost is the least of these, but still.
I dont think these things add to the game at all. They take away from it. You say that you have to manage your economy more when these things exist, but what if they didnt? Would you really have to spend less time on your economy? It seems to me like lategame this things actually make it way easier for a player.
Not to say that you are wrong, but that's more than anything else a design choice. Say chronoboost didn't exist, then the build times of Protoss units might be lower to begin with. In 2010 or 2011 this was even brought up as an argument from blizzard for having the superlong building time of the carrier. Or inject: Sure removing it would slow down the zerg pace a lot. But if inject was never put into the game, the standard larva spawn time on the hatchery might have been very low to begin with, or there could be an upgrade that severely increases the spawn rate.
Therefore "Hyper-development" isn't in the game because macro boosters exist, but because the game was intended to feature that development. The macro boosters are just the means they went with to achieve that goal while keeping the player busy to switch back screen onto his bases from time to time. I think TheDwf phrases this also somewhere in his thread, the game isn't so fast by accident, it's intentional design.
These are some pretty useful graphs barrin thanks for taking the time, but one thing, the mineral line you have there is not the same as the one on coda, you are using a standard mineral line, coda does not use any of those (Damn you IeZ -.-; ).
Following the discussion, I'm perfectly fine with widowmines, and this comes from a mapmaker and Zerg player, Yeah, I consider that they would be better if nerfed a little and reduced the supply to 1, maybe by killing themselves? I'm don't consider myself to be a excellent unit designer, that's not my area of expertise. My main point here is that if someone considers a widow mine "bad design" because "it kills stuff" then basically everything on the game would have "bad design".
Yeah or maybe, you know, this idea is not that good and the solution is more in the unit design?
People see 2 graphs and they're going full erect, but really who has tested this and it's impact on an actual game?
The current DH (10 mins per trip) is bad imho, because with a low count of workers you have a crazy mineral income that unecessarily boosts agressive openings (heard bout 3 rax proxy? you can go on test it) I m not sure this the way I would like the meta to go to.
I will try and test the new 8 mins per trip DH, but I'm not particulary optimistic.
On the other hand bizzard is testing a very violent change with the 1500 750 mins patch, but in the end the idea is to converge toward a smooth solution, what if at release it becomes 8 patch of 1250 minerals or something?
So imho, both solution are bad atm, but I think blizzard one is easier to balance and to optimize...
I can be totally wrong of course and maybe the 2:1 mining is actually the root of all evil in this game, but this old "blizzard is full of crap and don't know how to make a game" is getting old...
Brood war economy worked just fine, starbow economy worked well, there are multitudes of examples of how the economy worked.
On April 16 2015 23:44 BronzeKnee wrote: That is a great point. I feel like the IQ in this forum is about 30 points higher than any other forum anywhere. I'm actually learning.
Base design is something should be more heavily rewarded.
It already is very highly rewarded. it's not the forefront of every game, but when a zerg goes for dat baneling bust, or a hellion suddenly finds itself against an engineering bay instead of that perfect shot it was expecting instead, it can instantly and drastically change the course of a game.
It's more along the lines of "when you need it, and don't have it, you sing a different tune."
Yeah or maybe, you know, this idea is not that good and the solution is more in the unit design?
People see 2 graphs and they're going full erect, but really who has tested this and it's impact on an actual game?
The current DH (10 mins per trip) is bad imho, because with a low count of workers you have a crazy mineral income that unecessarily boosts agressive openings (heard bout 3 rax proxy? you can go on test it) I m not sure this the way I would like the meta to go to.
I will try and test the new 8 mins per trip DH, but I'm not particulary optimistic.
On the other hand bizzard is testing a very violent change with the 1500 750 mins patch, but in the end the idea is to converge toward a smooth solution, what if at release it becomes 8 patch of 1250 minerals or something?
So imho, both solution are bad atm, but I think blizzard one is easier to balance and to optimize...
I can be totally wrong of course and maybe the 2:1 mining is actually the root of all evil in this game, but this old "blizzard is full of crap and don't know how to make a game" is getting old...
I never once said that Blizzard don't know how to make a game.
The issue with 1200 minerals at each base however is the fact that you still have the 2:1 pairing, and you still have the "three base cap" and in the end you still get players only taking 4ths to maintain their economy. The advantage of more bases doesn't exist.
Sure, I agree early game you get a lot more money in DH to do something like proxy 3 rax, but so does the opponent to advance their defenses early on as well. So the meta should develop to even out.
Other than early game mineral based cheese strategies, I really don't see how DH would be a nightmare to balance since the mineral income becomes equal on 16 workers and gas income as well as production remain limiting factors on late game armies. All we are doing is increasing mineral income, making more bases more enticing to take with the extra minerals you have.
As a side effect you also get more gas, but you need to still put workers on those gas geysers at the extra bases etc.
Interestingly enough, SC2 already has a built in 2 workers = best efficiency for gas, so as the player who expands more gets more geysers they can spread not only the mineral workers out but also the gas workers out at the same time to further benefit their gas income while on similar gas harvester numbers!
So I think other than inflating the economy there is not much else to worry about. DH 8 trip might help in the inflated economy sense, but SC2 is a faster game, it always has been and maybe we should embrace it in the DH mining models instead of completely rallying against it. I mean blizzard is already increasing the pace of the game in LotV as it is.
Oh and as an aside, you can also 3 rax proxy in LotV right now Demuslim claims its fantastic
On April 16 2015 22:22 Hider wrote: Catz mentioned this on the Late game; "Its not fun when the only thing you can do for one of the races is to minimize damage".
That is well said by Catz. Can we finally remove the Widow Mine now and buff Siege Tanks? Invisible units dealing AOE burst damage that kill units in one shot is a pretty ridiculous mechanic.
While the Lurker is invisible, it doesn't kill units in a single shot (unless you have a large group, but that is a big commitment).
I think RTS games could very well do without them as there is still a lot of stuff you have to manage in your bases without them. But most of those - like building placement, building choices, base defense - are much more interesting and dynamic than production and mining mechanics.
That is a great point. I feel like the IQ in this forum is about 30 points higher than any other forum anywhere. I'm actually learning.
Base design is something should be more heavily rewarded.
Base design is already heavily rewarded. It can make the difference between defending harass or dying to it, holding off hellion aggression or not, hiding tech for a timing well against a scout, spotting a nydus building in your base or not (this one isn't as big a deal as it used to be unfortunately >_>), and can determine whether you can expand at all or not.
Base design is super important: it just happens that certain base design decisions are standardized at this point. Don't believe me about the importance? Try placing your buildings randomly without any thought in your base, and see what happens.
Have to say, I'm slightly disappointed by the decision to reduce the mineral patches in the test map to 1350.. Blizzards decision to have bases mine out faster was not a goal in and of itself, it was to force players to expand more quickly because bases were mining out faster. With the double mining model, players have an entirely different reason to expand as often as possible, thus there is absolutely no need for the original bases to mine out any faster than they do now, for it is redundant under this new model. Capitulating at all to Blizzard on this point can only serve to reinforce their belief that the current economic model is not as flawed as it truly is, and serves no tangible purpose for making the DM model viable.
On April 17 2015 02:59 Survivor61316 wrote: Have to say, I'm slightly disappointed by the decision to reduce the mineral patches in the test map to 1350.. Blizzards decision to have bases mine out faster was not a goal in and of itself, it was to force players to expand more quickly because bases were mining out faster. With the double mining model, players have an entirely different reason to expand as often as possible, thus there is absolutely no need for the original bases to mine out any faster than they do now, for it is redundant under this new model. Capitulating at all to Blizzard on this point can only serve to reinforce their belief that the current economic model is not as flawed as it truly is, and serves no tangible purpose for making the DM model viable.
I'm trying to find a middle ground. I think the 1500 might still mine out after too long a time (you could still hit a big army breakpoint).
Just trying stuff, only way to do it is to have different mineral incomes. I'm thinking while small 1400 might actually be the ticket.
Also we don't propose this model as an antithesis to the blizzard model. And we don't claim blizzards model could never work. Just that we think there is a better way to do it.
Now this all being said, I don't think its entirely wrong that the design direction is to allow bases to mine out more quickly compared to HotS. SC2 is a fast paced game with a lot of growth in the armies in the mid game. Maybe the bases do just last too long for SC2. Where the total amount of money might have been okay in the past, maybe its not quite that ok now.
I do think however 1350 is too much because thats 10% smaller AND its also going to mine out 5% faster which might be a compounding issue.
Again, 50 minerals per patch doesn't sound like a lot but it translates to about 30 seconds in game, which in an RTS is fairly substantial.
Also as you spread your workers it takes even longer to mine out so as you lose bases you can always fall back and get back in the game. So 1350 might be too much.
Just trying it out for now with some games and will discuss internally and see where it sits. But in general there appears to be positive feedback about LotV on the Idea that bases dont last as long, just not the approach of how its done.
I think the 1500 might still mine out after too long a time (you could still hit a big army breakpoint).
As in BW where you also could get 25 tanks and 25 Vultures on 3 bases and make a very strong timing attack?
I'm not looking to borrow from BW.
But the more I talk to plexa about it, the more variables we change, the harder it is to see how our model works in comparison to HotS. I will revert it when i have time and we will keep it open as an option later to see if it pushes the game just a touch further.
Or we let blizz make the ultimate decision (one would hope)
I think the 1500 might still mine out after too long a time (you could still hit a big army breakpoint).
As in BW where you also could get 25 tanks and 25 Vultures on 3 bases and make a very strong timing attack?
I'm not looking to borrow from BW.
But the more I talk to plexa about it, the more variables we change, the harder it is to see how our model works in comparison to HotS. I will revert it when i have time and we will keep it open as an option later to see if it pushes the game just a touch further.
Or we let blizz make the ultimate decision (one would hope)
On a purely pragmatic note, when you're organizing show matches with the DH extension used on HotS, it might be better to add the mineral patch resource reduction. This is for the PR purpose of creating a noticeable effect of having bases mine out more quickly, since the real intention of promoting expansions won't be picked up on too easily by players since it's too subtle and requires too much testing. That way random spectators on reddit can be more easily wowed over by the DH model.
And you're doing a better job of associating DH with LotV-type economy, so this makes it seem more progressive. Note, for instance, how InControl calls LotV a "BW style economy" even if that's wrong analysis. It's because people have this mindset of more expansions = Brood War = LotV = good. People aren't interested in the math, they just want to see more expansions taken in the show matches and they'll be happy, even if they won't actually understand anything.
Anyway, 1500->1350 on 3-base equals 3600 less minerals, which is a lot of money and has to be quite noticeable.
I think the 1500 might still mine out after too long a time (you could still hit a big army breakpoint).
As in BW where you also could get 25 tanks and 25 Vultures on 3 bases and make a very strong timing attack?
I'm not looking to borrow from BW.
But the more I talk to plexa about it, the more variables we change, the harder it is to see how our model works in comparison to HotS. I will revert it when i have time and we will keep it open as an option later to see if it pushes the game just a touch further.
Or we let blizz make the ultimate decision (one would hope)
On a purely pragmatic note, when you're organizing show matches with the DH extension used on HotS, it might be better to add the mineral patch resource reduction. This is for the PR purpose of creating a noticeable effect of having bases mine out more quickly, since the real intention of promoting expansions won't be picked up on too easily by players since it's too subtle and requires too much testing. That way random spectators on reddit can be more easily wowed over by the DH model.
And you're doing a better job of associating DH with LotV-type economy, so this makes it seem more progressive. Note, for instance, how InControl calls LotV a "BW style economy" even if that's wrong analysis. It's because people have this mindset of more expansions = Brood War = LotV = good. People aren't interested in the math, they just want to see more expansions taken in the show matches and they'll be happy, even if they won't actually understand anything.
Anyway, 1500->1350 on 3-base equals 3600 less minerals, which is a lot of money and has to be quite noticeable.
Hrm, I think showmatches will be significantly less useful than people suspect. The impact of this is specifically designed to be minimal until around the 4th-5th base mark and beyond. Showmatches would simply be insufficient to really examine the differences, and the only real result I would expect to see is turtling players lose more.
I think the 1500 might still mine out after too long a time (you could still hit a big army breakpoint).
As in BW where you also could get 25 tanks and 25 Vultures on 3 bases and make a very strong timing attack?
I'm not looking to borrow from BW.
But the more I talk to plexa about it, the more variables we change, the harder it is to see how our model works in comparison to HotS. I will revert it when i have time and we will keep it open as an option later to see if it pushes the game just a touch further.
Or we let blizz make the ultimate decision (one would hope)
On a purely pragmatic note, when you're organizing show matches with the DH extension used on HotS, it might be better to add the mineral patch resource reduction. This is for the PR purpose of creating a noticeable effect of having bases mine out more quickly, since the real intention of promoting expansions won't be picked up on too easily by players since it's too subtle and requires too much testing. That way random spectators on reddit can be more easily wowed over by the DH model.
And you're doing a better job of associating DH with LotV-type economy, so this makes it seem more progressive. Note, for instance, how InControl calls LotV a "BW style economy" even if that's wrong analysis. It's because people have this mindset of more expansions = Brood War = LotV = good. People aren't interested in the math, they just want to see more expansions taken in the show matches and they'll be happy, even if they won't actually understand anything.
Anyway, 1500->1350 on 3-base equals 3600 less minerals, which is a lot of money and has to be quite noticeable.
Hrm, I think showmatches will be significantly less useful than people suspect. The impact of this is specifically designed to be minimal until around the 4th-5th base mark and beyond. Showmatches would simply be insufficient to really examine the differences, and the only real result I would expect to see is turtling players lose more.
Yeah, I think that the main benefit of the DH-type economy models is to punish turtling players by being able to take more bases, but that there is an important side benefit in just having the game strategically making more sense by rewarding expanding. But that's a very subtle change which won't be noticed in even a few weeks of play I would think.
I think the 1500 might still mine out after too long a time (you could still hit a big army breakpoint).
As in BW where you also could get 25 tanks and 25 Vultures on 3 bases and make a very strong timing attack?
I'm not looking to borrow from BW.
But the more I talk to plexa about it, the more variables we change, the harder it is to see how our model works in comparison to HotS. I will revert it when i have time and we will keep it open as an option later to see if it pushes the game just a touch further.
Or we let blizz make the ultimate decision (one would hope)
On a purely pragmatic note, when you're organizing show matches with the DH extension used on HotS, it might be better to add the mineral patch resource reduction. This is for the PR purpose of creating a noticeable effect of having bases mine out more quickly, since the real intention of promoting expansions won't be picked up on too easily by players since it's too subtle and requires too much testing. That way random spectators on reddit can be more easily wowed over by the DH model.
And you're doing a better job of associating DH with LotV-type economy, so this makes it seem more progressive. Note, for instance, how InControl calls LotV a "BW style economy" even if that's wrong analysis. It's because people have this mindset of more expansions = Brood War = LotV = good. People aren't interested in the math, they just want to see more expansions taken in the show matches and they'll be happy, even if they won't actually understand anything.
Anyway, 1500->1350 on 3-base equals 3600 less minerals, which is a lot of money and has to be quite noticeable.
Hrm, I think showmatches will be significantly less useful than people suspect. The impact of this is specifically designed to be minimal until around the 4th-5th base mark and beyond. Showmatches would simply be insufficient to really examine the differences, and the only real result I would expect to see is turtling players lose more.
Yeah, I think that the main benefit of the DH-type economy models is to punish turtling players by being able to take more bases, but that there is an important side benefit in just having the game strategically making more sense by rewarding expanding. But that's a very subtle change which won't be noticed in even a few weeks of play I would think.
It would be seen sooner by top level players, but it would take time to significantly impact play in a meaningful way, unless the showmatch players just decided to say "Screw it" and rush extra bases, in which case why not.
This graph really makes 9 mineral harvesting look good. It not only speeds up the early game but can seemingly extend the mid game. It's seems almost too perfect to not look at in depth.
This graph really makes 9 mineral harvesting look good. It not only speeds up the early game but can seemingly extend the mid game. It's seems almost too perfect to not look at in depth.
I am not sure if blizzard wants to slow down the mid game though. Thats the issue. We would also need to alter gas income because if you just drop mineral income then gas becomes an issue.
Careful with how you read the gas though, this is income on one mineral line. You'll see a really similar to HotS income, but once you get past 16 workers the workers fall off super super hard. So falling back a base isn't as good a choice than in DH/HotS model.
Its depends on the direction you want to take I guess, but Blizz looks to want to increase the pace more than slow it down.
This graph really makes 9 mineral harvesting look good. It not only speeds up the early game but can seemingly extend the mid game. It's seems almost too perfect to not look at in depth.
I am not sure if blizzard wants to slow down the mid game though. Thats the issue. We would also need to alter gas income because if you just drop mineral income then gas becomes an issue.
Careful with how you read the gas though, this is income on one mineral line. You'll see a really similar to HotS income, but once you get past 16 workers the workers fall off super super hard. So falling back a base isn't as good a choice than in DH/HotS model.
Its depends on the direction you want to take I guess, but Blizz looks to want to increase the pace more than slow it down.
I'm actually not sure where Blizzard stands on some of these issues. They definitely want to speed up the early game but I'm not sure about the mid game. Here's a quote from their original LOTV panel that leads me to believe they support an extended mid game.
More action More opportunities to attack at any time, and a decrease in overall passive gameplay.
An extended mid game actually increases action by decreasing the consequences of failed attacks. The double harvester already extends the mid game as seen in this quick example. + Show Spoiler [example] +
ZvT in HOTS Zerg on 3 base rushes up to 32 drones. Terran on 2 base on 32 SCVs. Zerg makes roaches and zerglings and attacks the Terran. Zerg needs to trade cost efficiently to come out ahead because both players have the same economy (excluding mules). Zerg is unlikely to make this trade so they rush to maximum economy and bypass the midgame.
ZvT using a DH model Zerg income on 3 base and 32 drones > Terran income on 2CC and 32 SCvs Zerg can trade equally and come out ahead. Or they can trade slightly cost inefficiently and come out equal. If zerg trades very cost inefficiently, they still have a higher income than Terran. These trades are not improbable and thus Zerg can utilize them. This potential exchange leads to an extended mid game.
My thinking is that decreasing total income will allow for a longer period in which these interactions can come about. However you are right in saying that it would probably require a lot more retooling than the 10 mineral DH.
The biggest concern I have with this, like brood war this rewards extremely high APM during the early game a bit too much. If you are really good at "stuttering" workers, preventing the AI from "finding another patch", your economy will be at an extreme advantage over someone who is just relying on the AI. I was a brood war casual and I can tell you from experience this was very tedious and frustrating skillset to develop. I think the 2:1 is a breath of fresh air away from that niche skillset, I dont want to see a 1:1 come back for that reason.
Right now, unlike brood war, all ranges of skill levels can experience optimal saturation and economy with the 2:1. If we go back to the 1:1 a new skillset is required for the first 5 minutes of the game. Stuttering, or spam clicking preventing the worker from going to a different patch.....
All of a sudden, "Korean Tier" has a significant economy advantage which is unobtainable for 99% of starcraft 2 players. I am pretty positive this is the reason blizzard didnt want the 1:1 in the first place. I dont think it was an oversight with the more advanced AI.
Maybe the solution is keeping the 2:1, but reducing the number of mineral patches to 6. Thats probably a bigger change from HOTS then the current LOTV system tho, and would be tricky to balance.
On April 17 2015 15:11 WrathofShane wrote: The biggest concern I have with this, like brood war this rewards extremely high APM during the early game a bit too much. If you are really good at "stuttering" workers, preventing the AI from "finding another patch", your economy will be at an extreme advantage over someone who is just relying on the AI. I was a brood war casual and I can tell you from experience this was very tedious and frustrating skillset to develop. I think the 2:1 is a breath of fresh air away from that niche skillset, I dont want to see a 1:1 come back for that reason.
Right now, unlike brood war, all ranges of skill levels can experience optimal saturation and economy with the 2:1. If we go back to the 1:1 a new skillset is required for the first 5 minutes of the game. Stuttering, or spam clicking preventing the worker from going to a different patch.....
All of a sudden, "Korean Tier" has an economy advantage which is unobtainable for 99% of starcraft 2 players. I am pretty positive this is the reason blizzard didnt want the 1:1 in the first place. I dont think it was an oversight with the more advanced AI.
Maybe the solution is keeping the 2:1, but reducing the number of mineral patches to 6. Thats probably a bigger change from HOTS then the current LOTV system tho, and would be tricky to balance.
Why would you be worried about the best players in sc2 could do? Do you play against them regularly?
On April 17 2015 15:11 WrathofShane wrote: The biggest concern I have with this, like brood war this rewards extremely high APM during the early game a bit too much. If you are really good at "stuttering" workers, preventing the AI from "finding another patch", your economy will be at an extreme advantage over someone who is just relying on the AI. I was a brood war casual and I can tell you from experience this was very tedious and frustrating skillset to develop. I think the 2:1 is a breath of fresh air away from that niche skillset, I dont want to see a 1:1 come back for that reason.
Right now, unlike brood war, all ranges of skill levels can experience optimal saturation and economy with the 2:1. If we go back to the 1:1 a new skillset is required for the first 5 minutes of the game. Stuttering, or spam clicking preventing the worker from going to a different patch.....
All of a sudden, "Korean Tier" has an economy advantage which is unobtainable for 99% of starcraft 2 players. I am pretty positive this is the reason blizzard didnt want the 1:1 in the first place. I dont think it was an oversight with the more advanced AI.
Maybe the solution is keeping the 2:1, but reducing the number of mineral patches to 6. Thats probably a bigger change from HOTS then the current LOTV system tho, and would be tricky to balance.
Why would you be worried about the best players in sc2 could do? Do you play against them regularly?
Its significant enough to where if you wanted to actually play competitively you would have to deal with this tedious and frustrating skillset. And when I say play competitively I mean just trying to climb the ladder. Its a competitive game, and all levels will have to deal with this niche stutter skillset that the 2:1 removed.
Players have much better ways of separating themselves from the pack then another layer of APM sink into macro. The barrier level into high diamond / low masters is really challenging as is, now lets just toss in this consuming APM sink.
The fact that he didnt even consider APM negating the bad brood war AI tells me he wasnt a brood war player. As someone who had probably over 1000 games as zerg on brood war, no I dont want to go back to the 1:1
On April 17 2015 15:30 WrathofShane wrote: The fact that he didnt even consider APM negating the bad brood war AI tells me he wasnt a brood war player. As someone who had probably over 1000 games as zerg on brood war, no I dont want to go back to the 1:1
Not really any more APM required than early game worker pairing on good patches, and it's during a time where you have nothing else to do with that APM anyway. With multiple building selection and smart mining, there's not a large APM requirement during the phases where that would even be slightly beneficial. Later on it's not even a gain.
As for your comment regarding mineral reduction, when writing this article, we seriously considered the original incarnation of FRB (6 mineral patches, one rich geyser per base) as an alternative to double mining, and it's not an inherently awful idea, but the problem was that it set the base cap to 4 bases rather than 6 like double mining does, and we decided that rewarding more bases is better than stopping at 4 for a system, especially given how much harder it is to defend the more bases you take.
Also, the FRB system, while it has the same income ratio, would reduce income rates across the board, and has unpredictable effects, given the resulting increased opportunity cost for infrastructure and tech (it's a larger percentage of your total income), and it makes additional bases more expensive. This doesn't necessarily require more re-balancing, but it is less predictable, and a more significant change than double mining compared to HOTS economy, which makes evaluating other changes more difficult.
And I was the main proponent of FRB in the discussion. I still like it, but I've been persuaded that Double Harvesting is a superior concept for initial testing and should get a shot over FRB.
On April 17 2015 15:30 WrathofShane wrote: The fact that he didnt even consider APM negating the bad brood war AI tells me he wasnt a brood war player. As someone who had probably over 1000 games as zerg on brood war, no I dont want to go back to the 1:1
Not really any more APM required than early game worker pairing on good patches, and it's during a time where you have nothing else to do with that APM anyway. With multiple building selection and smart mining, there's not a large APM requirement during the phases where that would even be slightly beneficial. Later on it's not even a gain.
That is true. Maybe I am making it out to be more of a big deal then it is. After your natural starts getting saturated its not really optimal anymore to spend APM optimizing the mining AI.
What I remember from brood war tho. 1) Tedious. 2) Hidden power, while being extremely important. 3) Its an APM sink which new players are going to find silly. Their first thought is going to be, this is 2015, why the derp AI.
I dont want to see the 1:1 back, I stuttered enough drones in my day. I would rather keep the 2:1 and explore other options such as balancing the game around 6 mineral nodes per base or something. Admittedly tho the 6 nodes idea sounds unpredictable like you said and would be harder to balance.
On April 17 2015 15:30 WrathofShane wrote: The fact that he didnt even consider APM negating the bad brood war AI tells me he wasnt a brood war player. As someone who had probably over 1000 games as zerg on brood war, no I dont want to go back to the 1:1
Not really any more APM required than early game worker pairing on good patches, and it's during a time where you have nothing else to do with that APM anyway. With multiple building selection and smart mining, there's not a large APM requirement during the phases where that would even be slightly beneficial. Later on it's not even a gain.
That is true. Maybe I am making it out to be more of a big deal then it is. After your natural starts getting saturated its not really optimal anymore to spend APM optimizing the mining AI.
What I remember from brood war tho. 1) Tedious. 2) Hidden power, while being extremely important. 3) Its an APM sink which new players are going to find silly. Their first thought is going to be, this is 2015, why the derp AI.
I dont want to see the 1:1 back, I stuttered enough drones in my day. I would rather keep the 2:1 and explore other options such as balancing the game around 6 mineral nodes per base or something. Admittedly tho the 6 nodes idea sounds unpredictable like you said and would be harder to balance.
You'd have to do it for every patch an extra worker was on, not just the close patches, as well as do it every trip, just not every few trips, so I'm thinking the micro required for this would be double to triple that of sc2 for optimal mining efficiency.
On April 17 2015 15:30 WrathofShane wrote: The fact that he didnt even consider APM negating the bad brood war AI tells me he wasnt a brood war player. As someone who had probably over 1000 games as zerg on brood war, no I dont want to go back to the 1:1
Not really any more APM required than early game worker pairing on good patches, and it's during a time where you have nothing else to do with that APM anyway. With multiple building selection and smart mining, there's not a large APM requirement during the phases where that would even be slightly beneficial. Later on it's not even a gain.
That is true. Maybe I am making it out to be more of a big deal then it is. After your natural starts getting saturated its not really optimal anymore to spend APM optimizing the mining AI.
What I remember from brood war tho. 1) Tedious. 2) Hidden power, while being extremely important. 3) Its an APM sink which new players are going to find silly. Their first thought is going to be, this is 2015, why the derp AI.
I dont want to see the 1:1 back, I stuttered enough drones in my day. I would rather keep the 2:1 and explore other options such as balancing the game around 6 mineral nodes per base or something. Admittedly tho the 6 nodes idea sounds unpredictable like you said and would be harder to balance.
You'd have to do it for every patch an extra worker was on, not just the close patches, as well as do it every trip, just not every few trips, so I'm thinking the micro required for this would be double to triple that of sc2 for optimal mining efficiency.
Unlikely, as the issue you're referring to only exists for a short time. It's non-existent until your 9th worker on the base mining minerals, and disappears entirely as an issue once you get to around 13-14, which takes almost no time at all. The amount of minerals lost during that time due to workers bouncing for a short time before mining instantly is going to be around 5-10 at maximum, assuming bad luck.
On April 17 2015 15:30 WrathofShane wrote: The fact that he didnt even consider APM negating the bad brood war AI tells me he wasnt a brood war player. As someone who had probably over 1000 games as zerg on brood war, no I dont want to go back to the 1:1
Not really any more APM required than early game worker pairing on good patches, and it's during a time where you have nothing else to do with that APM anyway. With multiple building selection and smart mining, there's not a large APM requirement during the phases where that would even be slightly beneficial. Later on it's not even a gain.
Blizzard should not be creating reasons to go click-click-click with your mouse in phases of the game where there is nothing to do. The APM-threshold is already incredibly high in this game, no reason to make it even worse.
People wonder why SC2 has lost a lot of its popularity lately but at the same time keep demanding that Blizzard artificially increase the skill floor some more. As a matter of fact, blizzard could do smart things to lower the amount of tedious things one has to do. One idea I've had lately is auto-grouping units that spawn from production buildings, e.g. marines automatically 1, tanks 2, etc. Or moving parts of the observer UI to the player UI: having on-screen indicators what is producing, what is upgrading and when it will be ready. Or god forbid actually enabling players to let units autocreate for as long as they want, so they don't have to return to their production buildings all the time, e.g. right-click the marine-button in the barracks will make the barracks autocreate the unit as long as the player has enough resources.
This would allow players to actually focus on their units and their overbearing amount of active abilities. I can't help it, but sometimes I yearn for the simplicity that was WoL back in 2010.
On April 17 2015 15:30 WrathofShane wrote: The fact that he didnt even consider APM negating the bad brood war AI tells me he wasnt a brood war player. As someone who had probably over 1000 games as zerg on brood war, no I dont want to go back to the 1:1
Not really any more APM required than early game worker pairing on good patches, and it's during a time where you have nothing else to do with that APM anyway. With multiple building selection and smart mining, there's not a large APM requirement during the phases where that would even be slightly beneficial. Later on it's not even a gain.
Blizzard should not be creating reasons to go click-click-click with your mouse in phases of the game where there is nothing to do. The APM-threshold is already incredibly high in this game, no reason to make it even worse.
People wonder why SC2 has lost a lot of its popularity lately but at the same time keep demanding that Blizzard artificially increase the skill floor some more. As a matter of fact, blizzard could do smart things to lower the amount of tedious things one has to do. One idea I've had lately is auto-grouping units that spawn from production buildings, e.g. marines automatically 1, tanks 2, etc. Or moving parts of the observer UI to the player UI: having on-screen indicators what is producing, what is upgrading and when it will be ready. Or god forbid actually enabling players to let units autocreate for as long as they want, so they don't have to return to their production buildings all the time, e.g. right-click the marine-button in the barracks will make the barracks autocreate the unit as long as the player has enough resources.
This would allow players to actually focus on their units and their overbearing amount of active abilities. I can't help it, but sometimes I yearn for the simplicity that was WoL back in 2010.
Nono the only thing we can learn from MOBA's is the social aspect. Playing soloque in MOBA's is a fantastic experience and everyone is nice to each other and you make new friends all the time.
The fact that you need to spend alot of time fixing control groups and macroing in Starcraft and thus not being able to spend proper time on controlling the units, has nothing to do with its lack of success. Don't you realize that lifting and landing a barrack to switch a Reactor-add on and pressing V on your hatcheries every 20th second is a neccesity in the game?
There is no way you could create a game that allowed players to focus on micro rather than tedious tasks. Haven't you seen all the exciting moments where casters go crazy over the top players not being supply blocked or how they build Marines every 13th second? So no, Starcraft is just too unsocial, that's the only reason it isn't bigger than LOL.
On April 17 2015 15:30 WrathofShane wrote: The fact that he didnt even consider APM negating the bad brood war AI tells me he wasnt a brood war player. As someone who had probably over 1000 games as zerg on brood war, no I dont want to go back to the 1:1
Not really any more APM required than early game worker pairing on good patches, and it's during a time where you have nothing else to do with that APM anyway. With multiple building selection and smart mining, there's not a large APM requirement during the phases where that would even be slightly beneficial. Later on it's not even a gain.
Blizzard should not be creating reasons to go click-click-click with your mouse in phases of the game where there is nothing to do. The APM-threshold is already incredibly high in this game, no reason to make it even worse.
People wonder why SC2 has lost a lot of its popularity lately but at the same time keep demanding that Blizzard artificially increase the skill floor some more. As a matter of fact, blizzard could do smart things to lower the amount of tedious things one has to do. One idea I've had lately is auto-grouping units that spawn from production buildings, e.g. marines automatically 1, tanks 2, etc. Or moving parts of the observer UI to the player UI: having on-screen indicators what is producing, what is upgrading and when it will be ready. Or god forbid actually enabling players to let units autocreate for as long as they want, so they don't have to return to their production buildings all the time, e.g. right-click the marine-button in the barracks will make the barracks autocreate the unit as long as the player has enough resources.
This would allow players to actually focus on their units and their overbearing amount of active abilities. I can't help it, but sometimes I yearn for the simplicity that was WoL back in 2010.
This has nothing to do with any of that. By spending early game APM doing these things, you manage to eek out a few minerals more than you would otherwise, and not really that many. For professional players who have nothing better to do, that's fine. For your average player, they won't see any difference at all by doing it, and it won't hurt them in any measurable way not to do it.
The amount we're talking about it is around 5-10 minerals total in difference for double harvesting. Maybe 15-20 over the course of a game when applied to multiple bases, max. It's totally negligible.
On April 17 2015 15:30 WrathofShane wrote: The fact that he didnt even consider APM negating the bad brood war AI tells me he wasnt a brood war player. As someone who had probably over 1000 games as zerg on brood war, no I dont want to go back to the 1:1
Not really any more APM required than early game worker pairing on good patches, and it's during a time where you have nothing else to do with that APM anyway. With multiple building selection and smart mining, there's not a large APM requirement during the phases where that would even be slightly beneficial. Later on it's not even a gain.
Blizzard should not be creating reasons to go click-click-click with your mouse in phases of the game where there is nothing to do. The APM-threshold is already incredibly high in this game, no reason to make it even worse.
People wonder why SC2 has lost a lot of its popularity lately but at the same time keep demanding that Blizzard artificially increase the skill floor some more. As a matter of fact, blizzard could do smart things to lower the amount of tedious things one has to do. One idea I've had lately is auto-grouping units that spawn from production buildings, e.g. marines automatically 1, tanks 2, etc. Or moving parts of the observer UI to the player UI: having on-screen indicators what is producing, what is upgrading and when it will be ready. Or god forbid actually enabling players to let units autocreate for as long as they want, so they don't have to return to their production buildings all the time, e.g. right-click the marine-button in the barracks will make the barracks autocreate the unit as long as the player has enough resources.
This would allow players to actually focus on their units and their overbearing amount of active abilities. I can't help it, but sometimes I yearn for the simplicity that was WoL back in 2010.
This has nothing to do with any of that. By spending early game APM doing these things, you manage to eek out a few minerals more than you would otherwise, and not really that many. For professional players who have nothing better to do, that's fine. For your average player, they won't see any difference at all by doing it, and it won't hurt them in any measurable way not to do it.
The amount we're talking about it is around 5-10 minerals total in difference for double harvesting. Maybe 15-20 over the course of a game when applied to multiple bases, max. It's totally negligible.
As someone with plenty of brood war games
1) It is way more important then you are making it out to be. 2) It is tedious. 3) Its a niche skill. 4) Its hidden power and APM sink that new players are going to be caught off guard by. With the 2:1 its not even something to worry about, with 1:1 your income is going to fall behind just from not stutter stepping the drones until you start to get up to 16 workers or whatever.
2:1 is a breath of fresh air compared to brood war early game (post split phase). I would rather experiment with 6 nodes and 1 rich gas per base over going back to 1:1
On April 17 2015 15:30 WrathofShane wrote: The fact that he didnt even consider APM negating the bad brood war AI tells me he wasnt a brood war player. As someone who had probably over 1000 games as zerg on brood war, no I dont want to go back to the 1:1
Not really any more APM required than early game worker pairing on good patches, and it's during a time where you have nothing else to do with that APM anyway. With multiple building selection and smart mining, there's not a large APM requirement during the phases where that would even be slightly beneficial. Later on it's not even a gain.
Blizzard should not be creating reasons to go click-click-click with your mouse in phases of the game where there is nothing to do. The APM-threshold is already incredibly high in this game, no reason to make it even worse.
People wonder why SC2 has lost a lot of its popularity lately but at the same time keep demanding that Blizzard artificially increase the skill floor some more. As a matter of fact, blizzard could do smart things to lower the amount of tedious things one has to do. One idea I've had lately is auto-grouping units that spawn from production buildings, e.g. marines automatically 1, tanks 2, etc. Or moving parts of the observer UI to the player UI: having on-screen indicators what is producing, what is upgrading and when it will be ready. Or god forbid actually enabling players to let units autocreate for as long as they want, so they don't have to return to their production buildings all the time, e.g. right-click the marine-button in the barracks will make the barracks autocreate the unit as long as the player has enough resources.
This would allow players to actually focus on their units and their overbearing amount of active abilities. I can't help it, but sometimes I yearn for the simplicity that was WoL back in 2010.
This has nothing to do with any of that. By spending early game APM doing these things, you manage to eek out a few minerals more than you would otherwise, and not really that many. For professional players who have nothing better to do, that's fine. For your average player, they won't see any difference at all by doing it, and it won't hurt them in any measurable way not to do it.
The amount we're talking about it is around 5-10 minerals total in difference for double harvesting. Maybe 15-20 over the course of a game when applied to multiple bases, max. It's totally negligible.
As someone with plenty of brood war games
1) It is way more important then you are making it out to be. 2) It is tedious. 3) Its a niche skill. 4) Its hidden power and APM sink that new players are going to be caught off guard by. With the 2:1 its not even something to worry about, with 1:1 your income is going to fall behind just from not stutter stepping the drones until you start to get up to 16 workers or whatever.
2:1 is a breath of fresh air compared to brood war early game (post split phase). I would rather experiment with 6 nodes and 1 rich gas per base over going back to 1:1
Look, this isn't the same as it was in brood war. Worker movement is smoother, with less acceleration, deceleration and getting stuck. The bouncing exists somewhat, but it's not nearly as prevalent, and more importantly, the only question is how much mining time is lost due to it, and it's minimal. By optimizing with perfect micro to avoid mining downtime as a result of worker bouncing, you might squeeze out a few more minerals over the course of the game. The behavior doesn't even exist until after 8 workers are mining away, and it becomes irrelevant after you get to around 13 workers because the amount of extra workers means patches are taken right away after the previous one leaves anyway.
On April 17 2015 15:30 WrathofShane wrote: The fact that he didnt even consider APM negating the bad brood war AI tells me he wasnt a brood war player. As someone who had probably over 1000 games as zerg on brood war, no I dont want to go back to the 1:1
Not really any more APM required than early game worker pairing on good patches, and it's during a time where you have nothing else to do with that APM anyway. With multiple building selection and smart mining, there's not a large APM requirement during the phases where that would even be slightly beneficial. Later on it's not even a gain.
Blizzard should not be creating reasons to go click-click-click with your mouse in phases of the game where there is nothing to do. The APM-threshold is already incredibly high in this game, no reason to make it even worse.
People wonder why SC2 has lost a lot of its popularity lately but at the same time keep demanding that Blizzard artificially increase the skill floor some more. As a matter of fact, blizzard could do smart things to lower the amount of tedious things one has to do. One idea I've had lately is auto-grouping units that spawn from production buildings, e.g. marines automatically 1, tanks 2, etc. Or moving parts of the observer UI to the player UI: having on-screen indicators what is producing, what is upgrading and when it will be ready. Or god forbid actually enabling players to let units autocreate for as long as they want, so they don't have to return to their production buildings all the time, e.g. right-click the marine-button in the barracks will make the barracks autocreate the unit as long as the player has enough resources.
This would allow players to actually focus on their units and their overbearing amount of active abilities. I can't help it, but sometimes I yearn for the simplicity that was WoL back in 2010.
This has nothing to do with any of that. By spending early game APM doing these things, you manage to eek out a few minerals more than you would otherwise, and not really that many. For professional players who have nothing better to do, that's fine. For your average player, they won't see any difference at all by doing it, and it won't hurt them in any measurable way not to do it.
The amount we're talking about it is around 5-10 minerals total in difference for double harvesting. Maybe 15-20 over the course of a game when applied to multiple bases, max. It's totally negligible.
As someone with plenty of brood war games
1) It is way more important then you are making it out to be. 2) It is tedious. 3) Its a niche skill. 4) Its hidden power and APM sink that new players are going to be caught off guard by. With the 2:1 its not even something to worry about, with 1:1 your income is going to fall behind just from not stutter stepping the drones until you start to get up to 16 workers or whatever.
2:1 is a breath of fresh air compared to brood war early game (post split phase). I would rather experiment with 6 nodes and 1 rich gas per base over going back to 1:1
I read the whole article the first time, but after putting more thought into this I think the mid game benefits of having 1:1 greatly outweigh the negative impact 1:1 brings to the early game.
On April 17 2015 15:30 WrathofShane wrote: The fact that he didnt even consider APM negating the bad brood war AI tells me he wasnt a brood war player. As someone who had probably over 1000 games as zerg on brood war, no I dont want to go back to the 1:1
Not really any more APM required than early game worker pairing on good patches, and it's during a time where you have nothing else to do with that APM anyway. With multiple building selection and smart mining, there's not a large APM requirement during the phases where that would even be slightly beneficial. Later on it's not even a gain.
Blizzard should not be creating reasons to go click-click-click with your mouse in phases of the game where there is nothing to do. The APM-threshold is already incredibly high in this game, no reason to make it even worse.
People wonder why SC2 has lost a lot of its popularity lately but at the same time keep demanding that Blizzard artificially increase the skill floor some more. As a matter of fact, blizzard could do smart things to lower the amount of tedious things one has to do. One idea I've had lately is auto-grouping units that spawn from production buildings, e.g. marines automatically 1, tanks 2, etc. Or moving parts of the observer UI to the player UI: having on-screen indicators what is producing, what is upgrading and when it will be ready. Or god forbid actually enabling players to let units autocreate for as long as they want, so they don't have to return to their production buildings all the time, e.g. right-click the marine-button in the barracks will make the barracks autocreate the unit as long as the player has enough resources.
This would allow players to actually focus on their units and their overbearing amount of active abilities. I can't help it, but sometimes I yearn for the simplicity that was WoL back in 2010.
This has nothing to do with any of that. By spending early game APM doing these things, you manage to eek out a few minerals more than you would otherwise, and not really that many. For professional players who have nothing better to do, that's fine. For your average player, they won't see any difference at all by doing it, and it won't hurt them in any measurable way not to do it.
The amount we're talking about it is around 5-10 minerals total in difference for double harvesting. Maybe 15-20 over the course of a game when applied to multiple bases, max. It's totally negligible.
If it is totally negligible it a complete waste of time and money to have people program that into the game in the first place.
To me, a high silver-low gold level player (i.e. someone belonging to the largest group of players), there was nothing wrong with HOTS' economy. However, what I did notice is that I usually ended up spending more time looking at my production buildings than at my or my opponent's army, up to the point that 95% of my game time felt like playing a high-speed, real time city building and the other 5% actually fighting my opponent who was doing the same thing I was. If I am playing an RTS, I want to the focus to be on using my army in a strategic fashion, not on optimising my production because below master league the bigger army will usually win. Holding off cheese would be a lot more bearable (not to mention fun) if I didn't have to surrender control over my units every few seconds because I have to order my barracks to make another marine.
Some of Starcraft 2's mechanics are downright archaic and outdated, and exist only to make the game difficult for the sake of it. Sure, automising the whole production process would drastically lower the skill ceiling, but would also drastically reduce the skill threshold for new players. MOBA games, to me, seem to be about making smart strategical choices with your hero and its abilities. Starcraft 2 is about being able to click on things faster than your opponent, and in the lower leagues those things tend to be production buildings instead of army units.
So quite bluntly, my advice to blizzard would be: stop focussing on redesigning the game's economy and focus on automising the production process so people can spend more time thinking up strategies and outmanoeuvering their opponents. Do this even if you will draw the ire of the top 5% of players.
On April 17 2015 15:30 WrathofShane wrote: The fact that he didnt even consider APM negating the bad brood war AI tells me he wasnt a brood war player. As someone who had probably over 1000 games as zerg on brood war, no I dont want to go back to the 1:1
Not really any more APM required than early game worker pairing on good patches, and it's during a time where you have nothing else to do with that APM anyway. With multiple building selection and smart mining, there's not a large APM requirement during the phases where that would even be slightly beneficial. Later on it's not even a gain.
Blizzard should not be creating reasons to go click-click-click with your mouse in phases of the game where there is nothing to do. The APM-threshold is already incredibly high in this game, no reason to make it even worse.
People wonder why SC2 has lost a lot of its popularity lately but at the same time keep demanding that Blizzard artificially increase the skill floor some more. As a matter of fact, blizzard could do smart things to lower the amount of tedious things one has to do. One idea I've had lately is auto-grouping units that spawn from production buildings, e.g. marines automatically 1, tanks 2, etc. Or moving parts of the observer UI to the player UI: having on-screen indicators what is producing, what is upgrading and when it will be ready. Or god forbid actually enabling players to let units autocreate for as long as they want, so they don't have to return to their production buildings all the time, e.g. right-click the marine-button in the barracks will make the barracks autocreate the unit as long as the player has enough resources.
This would allow players to actually focus on their units and their overbearing amount of active abilities. I can't help it, but sometimes I yearn for the simplicity that was WoL back in 2010.
This has nothing to do with any of that. By spending early game APM doing these things, you manage to eek out a few minerals more than you would otherwise, and not really that many. For professional players who have nothing better to do, that's fine. For your average player, they won't see any difference at all by doing it, and it won't hurt them in any measurable way not to do it.
The amount we're talking about it is around 5-10 minerals total in difference for double harvesting. Maybe 15-20 over the course of a game when applied to multiple bases, max. It's totally negligible.
If it is totally negligible it a complete waste of time and money to have people program that into the game in the first place.
To me, a high silver-low gold level player (i.e. someone belonging to the largest group of players), there was nothing wrong with HOTS' economy. However, what I did notice is that I usually ended up spending more time looking at my production buildings than at my or my opponent's army, up to the point that 95% of my game time felt like playing a high-speed, real time city building and the other 5% actually fighting my opponent who was doing the same thing I was. If I am playing an RTS, I want to the focus to be on using my army in a strategic fashion, not on optimising my production because below master league the bigger army will usually win. Holding off cheese would be a lot more bearable (not to mention fun) if I didn't have to surrender control over my units every few seconds because I have to order my barracks to make another marine.
Some of Starcraft 2's mechanics are downright archaic and outdated, and exist only to make the game difficult for the sake of it. Sure, automising the whole production process would drastically lower the skill ceiling, but would also drastically reduce the skill threshold for new players. MOBA games, to me, seem to be about making smart strategical choices with your hero and its abilities. Starcraft 2 is about being able to click on things faster than your opponent, and in the lower leagues those things tend to be production buildings instead of army units.
So quite bluntly, my advice to blizzard would be: stop focussing on redesigning the game's economy and focus on automising the production process so people can spend more time thinking up strategies and outmanoeuvering their opponents. Do this even if you will draw the ire of the top 5% of players.
Doing this sort of thing would destroy the competitive scene. This isn't a chess game where players are permitted to take as much time as they need to accomplish things, nor is it a team game where action is happening everywhere because it's all under the control of different players working together. For a one on one RTS competive game to be particularly interesting, it needs to be difficult to master the mechanics. We love the game and love to watch it because of how hard it is to play flawlessly.
The fact that the game is difficult to master is not a bad thing, but it's a plus. Starcraft is very much about strategy, but you need a minimum level of mechanical skill before that strategy comes into play. The equivalent example would be in a moba not knowing what the items are or how they function, or in heroes of the storm not knowing how the talents work. You can still play the game and can even have a lot of fun if you're open to it, but it's not going to be nearly as strategic.
That said, if you're having too much trouble with the mechanics, archon mode is being introduced for a reason, and seems exactly like the sort of thing you'd enjoy.
Not revamping things that very much need it because the lower echelon of players don't care isn't a reason not to do it, nor is it a reason to redesign the game. Professionals are only interested in the game because of its difficulty: take that away and they'd lose interest. There's a reason Starcraft is the only RTS being played right now, rather than command and conquer.
I don't really know what to say besides if it makes the game require more skill then I am all for this change, especially if it makes it a lot more like BW than SC2 currently is.
On April 17 2015 19:12 maartendq wrote:If I am playing an RTS, I want to the focus to be on using my army in a strategic fashion, not on optimising my production because below master league the bigger army will usually win. Holding off cheese would be a lot more bearable (not to mention fun) if I didn't have to surrender control over my units every few seconds because I have to order my barracks to make another marine.
Go download the best RTT (real-time tactics) games ever, in my opinion, Myth/Myth II: Soulblighter:
Made by Bungie Software way back before it was bought by Microsoft, pre-Halo days. Times may have changed, but if you want a game that's all about the tactics, no production, I'm not sure there is a better made game out there. Plus, it has dwarves that lob moltov cocktails.
More to your point, there is a significant difference between a RTT (real-time tactics) game and a RTS (real-time strategy game). The latter looks like starcraft and includes a constant tension between controlling your army and controlling your production and economy. That's the nature of the game. If you want a game focused on army control, you'll probably be happier playing a RTT.
On April 17 2015 19:12 maartendq wrote:If I am playing an RTS, I want to the focus to be on using my army in a strategic fashion, not on optimising my production because below master league the bigger army will usually win. Holding off cheese would be a lot more bearable (not to mention fun) if I didn't have to surrender control over my units every few seconds because I have to order my barracks to make another marine.
Go download the best RTT (real-time tactics) games ever, in my opinion, Myth/Myth II: Soulblighter:
Made by Bungie Software way back before it was bought by Microsoft, pre-Halo days. Times may have changed, but if you want a game that's all about the tactics, no production, I'm not sure there is a better made game out there. Plus, it has dwarves that lob moltov cocktails.
More to your point, there is a significant difference between a RTT (real-time tactics) game and a RTS (real-time strategy game). The latter looks like starcraft and includes a constant tension between controlling your army and controlling your production and economy. That's the nature of the game. If you want a game focused on army control, you'll probably be happier playing a RTT.
Actually I really like Dawn of War 2. I found its campaign to be better than WoL's because the latter felt like one long tutorial. The game's sound design is especially amazing. Too bad Relic suffered really badly from their publisher's bankruptcy. They were the only RTS studio left that could stand up to Blizzard, in my opinion. Company of Heroes 2 wasn't bad, but it felt like a step backwards in RTS design. I haven't checked out the expansion yet though. I've heard that they included some persistant units that need to survive throughout the campaign, which is very neat. The one game that did that before, an obscure but Russian title called OriginalWar, was really good, especially since you had to specialise your characters into either soldiering, engineering, working or science. Losing a level 9 soldier or engineer could really make life a lot more difficult.
On the other hand, C&C and SupCom are also called RTS but don't require the player to macro nearly as much as starcraft does. C&C has the unit production tab constantly on-screen and SupCom's production is fully automated. AoE 1 and 2 were even more macro-intensive than Starcraft (2), but AoE3 just let players create units five at a time if they could afford it. Game speed in these games is also significantly slower than in Starcraft 2, which makes the whole process more manageable in the first place.
Perhaps I should check for the answer, but 26 pages is quite a lot. That's why I'm asking here. Is there group or chat room on battle.net dediceted to testing those changes? How can I find someone to play with mod and see how that works in game?
After having read this entire article, it truly makes a lot of sense. Blizzard Step 1) Try out this economic model Step 2) If it works, and it's adopted, you gotta hire this individual. The universe is watching. Remember that.
Is there a special way to search custom games just by extension mods? Because even when I copy paste the title provided above for the map, nothing comes up..
On April 18 2015 09:06 Survivor61316 wrote: Is the email up yet to send replays to?
Apologies real life caught up with me yes check the mod note above
On April 18 2015 09:14 Survivor61316 wrote: Is there a special way to search custom games just by extension mods? Because even when I copy paste the title provided above for the map, nothing comes up..
you need to find a map (anymap) then hit "create with mod" on the bottom right THEN search the extension mod i posted above and you are good to go!
Also as an update to everyone:
I fucked up, there are now 2 of the same extension mod with slightly different names. They are both the same, im just an editor extension mod publishing noob
On April 17 2015 15:30 WrathofShane wrote: The fact that he didnt even consider APM negating the bad brood war AI tells me he wasnt a brood war player. As someone who had probably over 1000 games as zerg on brood war, no I dont want to go back to the 1:1
Not really any more APM required than early game worker pairing on good patches, and it's during a time where you have nothing else to do with that APM anyway. With multiple building selection and smart mining, there's not a large APM requirement during the phases where that would even be slightly beneficial. Later on it's not even a gain.
Blizzard should not be creating reasons to go click-click-click with your mouse in phases of the game where there is nothing to do. The APM-threshold is already incredibly high in this game, no reason to make it even worse.
People wonder why SC2 has lost a lot of its popularity lately but at the same time keep demanding that Blizzard artificially increase the skill floor some more. As a matter of fact, blizzard could do smart things to lower the amount of tedious things one has to do. One idea I've had lately is auto-grouping units that spawn from production buildings, e.g. marines automatically 1, tanks 2, etc. Or moving parts of the observer UI to the player UI: having on-screen indicators what is producing, what is upgrading and when it will be ready. Or god forbid actually enabling players to let units autocreate for as long as they want, so they don't have to return to their production buildings all the time, e.g. right-click the marine-button in the barracks will make the barracks autocreate the unit as long as the player has enough resources.
This would allow players to actually focus on their units and their overbearing amount of active abilities. I can't help it, but sometimes I yearn for the simplicity that was WoL back in 2010.
This has nothing to do with any of that. By spending early game APM doing these things, you manage to eek out a few minerals more than you would otherwise, and not really that many. For professional players who have nothing better to do, that's fine. For your average player, they won't see any difference at all by doing it, and it won't hurt them in any measurable way not to do it.
The amount we're talking about it is around 5-10 minerals total in difference for double harvesting. Maybe 15-20 over the course of a game when applied to multiple bases, max. It's totally negligible.
If it is totally negligible it a complete waste of time and money to have people program that into the game in the first place.
To me, a high silver-low gold level player (i.e. someone belonging to the largest group of players), there was nothing wrong with HOTS' economy. However, what I did notice is that I usually ended up spending more time looking at my production buildings than at my or my opponent's army, up to the point that 95% of my game time felt like playing a high-speed, real time city building and the other 5% actually fighting my opponent who was doing the same thing I was. If I am playing an RTS, I want to the focus to be on using my army in a strategic fashion, not on optimising my production because below master league the bigger army will usually win. Holding off cheese would be a lot more bearable (not to mention fun) if I didn't have to surrender control over my units every few seconds because I have to order my barracks to make another marine.
Some of Starcraft 2's mechanics are downright archaic and outdated, and exist only to make the game difficult for the sake of it. Sure, automising the whole production process would drastically lower the skill ceiling, but would also drastically reduce the skill threshold for new players. MOBA games, to me, seem to be about making smart strategical choices with your hero and its abilities. Starcraft 2 is about being able to click on things faster than your opponent, and in the lower leagues those things tend to be production buildings instead of army units.
So quite bluntly, my advice to blizzard would be: stop focussing on redesigning the game's economy and focus on automising the production process so people can spend more time thinking up strategies and outmanoeuvering their opponents. Do this even if you will draw the ire of the top 5% of players.
I definitely hear what you're saying... however I think that sort of discussion is much more pertinent to TheDwf's discussion which is more centered around game/unit design.
On April 17 2015 15:30 WrathofShane wrote: The fact that he didnt even consider APM negating the bad brood war AI tells me he wasnt a brood war player. As someone who had probably over 1000 games as zerg on brood war, no I dont want to go back to the 1:1
Not really any more APM required than early game worker pairing on good patches, and it's during a time where you have nothing else to do with that APM anyway. With multiple building selection and smart mining, there's not a large APM requirement during the phases where that would even be slightly beneficial. Later on it's not even a gain.
Blizzard should not be creating reasons to go click-click-click with your mouse in phases of the game where there is nothing to do. The APM-threshold is already incredibly high in this game, no reason to make it even worse.
People wonder why SC2 has lost a lot of its popularity lately but at the same time keep demanding that Blizzard artificially increase the skill floor some more. As a matter of fact, blizzard could do smart things to lower the amount of tedious things one has to do. One idea I've had lately is auto-grouping units that spawn from production buildings, e.g. marines automatically 1, tanks 2, etc. Or moving parts of the observer UI to the player UI: having on-screen indicators what is producing, what is upgrading and when it will be ready. Or god forbid actually enabling players to let units autocreate for as long as they want, so they don't have to return to their production buildings all the time, e.g. right-click the marine-button in the barracks will make the barracks autocreate the unit as long as the player has enough resources.
This would allow players to actually focus on their units and their overbearing amount of active abilities. I can't help it, but sometimes I yearn for the simplicity that was WoL back in 2010.
This has nothing to do with any of that. By spending early game APM doing these things, you manage to eek out a few minerals more than you would otherwise, and not really that many. For professional players who have nothing better to do, that's fine. For your average player, they won't see any difference at all by doing it, and it won't hurt them in any measurable way not to do it.
The amount we're talking about it is around 5-10 minerals total in difference for double harvesting. Maybe 15-20 over the course of a game when applied to multiple bases, max. It's totally negligible.
If it is totally negligible it a complete waste of time and money to have people program that into the game in the first place.
To me, a high silver-low gold level player (i.e. someone belonging to the largest group of players), there was nothing wrong with HOTS' economy. However, what I did notice is that I usually ended up spending more time looking at my production buildings than at my or my opponent's army, up to the point that 95% of my game time felt like playing a high-speed, real time city building and the other 5% actually fighting my opponent who was doing the same thing I was. If I am playing an RTS, I want to the focus to be on using my army in a strategic fashion, not on optimising my production because below master league the bigger army will usually win. Holding off cheese would be a lot more bearable (not to mention fun) if I didn't have to surrender control over my units every few seconds because I have to order my barracks to make another marine.
Some of Starcraft 2's mechanics are downright archaic and outdated, and exist only to make the game difficult for the sake of it. Sure, automising the whole production process would drastically lower the skill ceiling, but would also drastically reduce the skill threshold for new players. MOBA games, to me, seem to be about making smart strategical choices with your hero and its abilities. Starcraft 2 is about being able to click on things faster than your opponent, and in the lower leagues those things tend to be production buildings instead of army units.
So quite bluntly, my advice to blizzard would be: stop focussing on redesigning the game's economy and focus on automising the production process so people can spend more time thinking up strategies and outmanoeuvering their opponents. Do this even if you will draw the ire of the top 5% of players.
Have you considered that the starcraft games just arent for you? BW was succesful because it WASNT like all the dime a dozen RTS games out there. And now youre in here saying blizzard should cater the game to casuals even if it destroys the pro scene.
On April 17 2015 23:49 maartendq wrote: Actually I really like Dawn of War 2. I found its campaign to be better than WoL's.
I'm glad you're also interested in hijacking this thread. I'm glad because Myth & Myth II have awesome campaigns and stories, as do the original Marathon games by Bungie!
Myth is the best "here's a bunch of units, make the best of them" game in history, period. It may be a little hard on the eyes now, but if you can go through that, #1 recommended game. Those goddamn troves...
Didn't try DoW2, partly because I hated how Relic ruined the first one with stupid Warhammer fanservice. Maybe I should try it out, I don't know.
For me, RTS was always about building a simulation that converts resources into victory. Units have a secondary role, they are just a way to achieve that victory, the real game is about taking parts of the map for yourself and getting the most out of them. Myth-style games have their own place, but it's a different genre.
On April 19 2015 01:17 BluzMan wrote: Myth is the best "here's a bunch of units, make the best of them" game in history, period. It may be a little hard on the eyes now, but if you can go through that, #1 recommended game. Those goddamn troves...
The whole unit swapping in planning time concept was genius, I don't think I've seen something like that replicated since (but I haven't played many other similar tactical games...)
On April 17 2015 15:30 WrathofShane wrote: The fact that he didnt even consider APM negating the bad brood war AI tells me he wasnt a brood war player. As someone who had probably over 1000 games as zerg on brood war, no I dont want to go back to the 1:1
Not really any more APM required than early game worker pairing on good patches, and it's during a time where you have nothing else to do with that APM anyway. With multiple building selection and smart mining, there's not a large APM requirement during the phases where that would even be slightly beneficial. Later on it's not even a gain.
Blizzard should not be creating reasons to go click-click-click with your mouse in phases of the game where there is nothing to do. The APM-threshold is already incredibly high in this game, no reason to make it even worse.
People wonder why SC2 has lost a lot of its popularity lately but at the same time keep demanding that Blizzard artificially increase the skill floor some more. As a matter of fact, blizzard could do smart things to lower the amount of tedious things one has to do. One idea I've had lately is auto-grouping units that spawn from production buildings, e.g. marines automatically 1, tanks 2, etc. Or moving parts of the observer UI to the player UI: having on-screen indicators what is producing, what is upgrading and when it will be ready. Or god forbid actually enabling players to let units autocreate for as long as they want, so they don't have to return to their production buildings all the time, e.g. right-click the marine-button in the barracks will make the barracks autocreate the unit as long as the player has enough resources.
This would allow players to actually focus on their units and their overbearing amount of active abilities. I can't help it, but sometimes I yearn for the simplicity that was WoL back in 2010.
This has nothing to do with any of that. By spending early game APM doing these things, you manage to eek out a few minerals more than you would otherwise, and not really that many. For professional players who have nothing better to do, that's fine. For your average player, they won't see any difference at all by doing it, and it won't hurt them in any measurable way not to do it.
The amount we're talking about it is around 5-10 minerals total in difference for double harvesting. Maybe 15-20 over the course of a game when applied to multiple bases, max. It's totally negligible.
If it is totally negligible it a complete waste of time and money to have people program that into the game in the first place.
To me, a high silver-low gold level player (i.e. someone belonging to the largest group of players), there was nothing wrong with HOTS' economy. However, what I did notice is that I usually ended up spending more time looking at my production buildings than at my or my opponent's army, up to the point that 95% of my game time felt like playing a high-speed, real time city building and the other 5% actually fighting my opponent who was doing the same thing I was. If I am playing an RTS, I want to the focus to be on using my army in a strategic fashion, not on optimising my production because below master league the bigger army will usually win. Holding off cheese would be a lot more bearable (not to mention fun) if I didn't have to surrender control over my units every few seconds because I have to order my barracks to make another marine.
Some of Starcraft 2's mechanics are downright archaic and outdated, and exist only to make the game difficult for the sake of it. Sure, automising the whole production process would drastically lower the skill ceiling, but would also drastically reduce the skill threshold for new players. MOBA games, to me, seem to be about making smart strategical choices with your hero and its abilities. Starcraft 2 is about being able to click on things faster than your opponent, and in the lower leagues those things tend to be production buildings instead of army units.
So quite bluntly, my advice to blizzard would be: stop focussing on redesigning the game's economy and focus on automising the production process so people can spend more time thinking up strategies and outmanoeuvering their opponents. Do this even if you will draw the ire of the top 5% of players.
Have you considered that the starcraft games just arent for you? BW was succesful because it WASNT like all the dime a dozen RTS games out there. And now youre in here saying blizzard should cater the game to casuals even if it destroys the pro scene.
He has a point, though. It is very much related to TheDwf's post about how Blizzard has specifically designed SC2 to NOT cater to players (both casuals and professionals) that has hurt the game. If the pro scene gets destroyed, but SC2 becomes a fun game to play, I'm not sure I could argue with it.
What he fails to really notice is that the economy is one of the core issues affecting how people interact with one another. With a nearly automated economy, there really is very little room for dynamic decision making and strategy, whereas a more rewarding economy would most likely result in a much more interesting game where expanding and unit compositions were a choice rather than a forced decision.
I truly believe that by at least looking at the economy, Blizzard is taking a step in the right direction at improving the game significantly. However, it saddens me that the half patch approach seems to be their final destination for now, and that they are more interested in trying to balance units and matchups rather than the deeper, core issues at hand. As Zeromus points out in the OP, everything stems from the economy -- it needs to approached first before any race/unit balancing is even considered.
Nathanias had a showmatch with Catz And Iaguz playing.
Seems like its gonna take Zs a while to figure out the Z drone timings and how many to make but Catz brought up an interesting perspective. Zs will be greedy with hatches and probably cutting at around 12 workers per base on minerals while expanding and not necessarily hitting 16.
T and P will probably hit 16 cuz they expand so slowly anyway.
But he did say he enjoyed it and that it felt fun to play with so thats a positive! Even if he thinks Mules might need some tweaks in the future, but thats only one handful of games so we will see.
On April 17 2015 15:30 WrathofShane wrote: The fact that he didnt even consider APM negating the bad brood war AI tells me he wasnt a brood war player. As someone who had probably over 1000 games as zerg on brood war, no I dont want to go back to the 1:1
Not really any more APM required than early game worker pairing on good patches, and it's during a time where you have nothing else to do with that APM anyway. With multiple building selection and smart mining, there's not a large APM requirement during the phases where that would even be slightly beneficial. Later on it's not even a gain.
Blizzard should not be creating reasons to go click-click-click with your mouse in phases of the game where there is nothing to do. The APM-threshold is already incredibly high in this game, no reason to make it even worse.
People wonder why SC2 has lost a lot of its popularity lately but at the same time keep demanding that Blizzard artificially increase the skill floor some more. As a matter of fact, blizzard could do smart things to lower the amount of tedious things one has to do. One idea I've had lately is auto-grouping units that spawn from production buildings, e.g. marines automatically 1, tanks 2, etc. Or moving parts of the observer UI to the player UI: having on-screen indicators what is producing, what is upgrading and when it will be ready. Or god forbid actually enabling players to let units autocreate for as long as they want, so they don't have to return to their production buildings all the time, e.g. right-click the marine-button in the barracks will make the barracks autocreate the unit as long as the player has enough resources.
This would allow players to actually focus on their units and their overbearing amount of active abilities. I can't help it, but sometimes I yearn for the simplicity that was WoL back in 2010.
This has nothing to do with any of that. By spending early game APM doing these things, you manage to eek out a few minerals more than you would otherwise, and not really that many. For professional players who have nothing better to do, that's fine. For your average player, they won't see any difference at all by doing it, and it won't hurt them in any measurable way not to do it.
The amount we're talking about it is around 5-10 minerals total in difference for double harvesting. Maybe 15-20 over the course of a game when applied to multiple bases, max. It's totally negligible.
If it is totally negligible it a complete waste of time and money to have people program that into the game in the first place.
To me, a high silver-low gold level player (i.e. someone belonging to the largest group of players), there was nothing wrong with HOTS' economy. However, what I did notice is that I usually ended up spending more time looking at my production buildings than at my or my opponent's army, up to the point that 95% of my game time felt like playing a high-speed, real time city building and the other 5% actually fighting my opponent who was doing the same thing I was. If I am playing an RTS, I want to the focus to be on using my army in a strategic fashion, not on optimising my production because below master league the bigger army will usually win. Holding off cheese would be a lot more bearable (not to mention fun) if I didn't have to surrender control over my units every few seconds because I have to order my barracks to make another marine.
Some of Starcraft 2's mechanics are downright archaic and outdated, and exist only to make the game difficult for the sake of it. Sure, automising the whole production process would drastically lower the skill ceiling, but would also drastically reduce the skill threshold for new players. MOBA games, to me, seem to be about making smart strategical choices with your hero and its abilities. Starcraft 2 is about being able to click on things faster than your opponent, and in the lower leagues those things tend to be production buildings instead of army units.
So quite bluntly, my advice to blizzard would be: stop focussing on redesigning the game's economy and focus on automising the production process so people can spend more time thinking up strategies and outmanoeuvering their opponents. Do this even if you will draw the ire of the top 5% of players.
Have you considered that the starcraft games just arent for you? BW was succesful because it WASNT like all the dime a dozen RTS games out there. And now youre in here saying blizzard should cater the game to casuals even if it destroys the pro scene.
Brood War had far less active abilities and spells than SC2 has, and the really impactful ones (Plague, Dark Swarm, Psi Storm etc) were late game spells. Micomanagement was based around unit positioning and army movement. Maxing out was far less important than actually being able to efficiently use the amount of units you have (harvesting and unit production was a lot slower too, if I recall correctly). I recall having seen one game in which a Protoss player held off a rush by means of one zealot or dragoon and a shield battery. That would be impossible in SC2 because "having more stuff" will most of the time trump "knowing how to use stuff", especially if the game is riddled with anti-micro spells.
Right now Blizzard is artificially making the game more difficult by adding ever more spells and active abilities. I am not saying that Blizzard should cater to casuals, but should maybe update its game for the year 2015, or just go back to the simplicity of 2010 Wings of Liberty. As a sidenote: automated production has been done almost a decade ago in what for many people is one of the best RTS out there: Supreme Commander. Just because you don't have to spend 95% of your game time watching your production buildings doesn't mean the game becomes 'casualised'.
Blizzard should take a cue from other genres. Dark Souls/Demon Souls and Bloodborne have a relatively 'dumbed down' control scheme (two attack modes, blocking, parrying with a shield followed by a riposte, backstabs and evasive rolls); there are no fancy combos like in Street Fighter or Mortal Combat. Regardless, DaS, DeS and BB are known to be the most challenging yet fair games of the past and current generation, because that simplicity gave players an immense amount of control over their character: most deaths are actually your own fault, not the game's. PvP is also said to be immensely fun, but I haven't tried that yet.
Brood War had far less active abilities and spells than SC2 has, and the really impactful ones (Plague, Dark Swarm, Psi Storm etc) were late game spells.
BW still had a fair number of active spells early-mid game, e.g. Stim-pack, Siege mode, Lurker burrow, Reaver Scarabs. Also a lot of the time players would have to fight the unit AI/pathing (remember Dragoons?).
Micromanagement was based around unit positioning and army movement. Maxing out was far less important than actually being able to efficiently use the amount of units you have (harvesting and unit production was a lot slower too, if I recall correctly).
The proposed changes to economy will encourage strategic expansion and will subsequently provide more intuitive rewards for map control and positioning. To your point, harvesting and unit production are faster in SCII b/c of the new macro mechanics for each race (larvae/mules/chrono/warpgate).
I recall having seen one game in which a Protoss player held off a rush by means of one zealot or dragoon and a shield battery. That would be impossible in SC2 because "having more stuff" will most of the time trump "knowing how to use stuff", especially if the game is riddled with anti-micro spells.
Arguably, you have a similar thing in SCII, it would just be a Zealot and Sentry instead of Dragoon/shield battery. And even in BW macro was still a significant aspect (you could argue that it makes a bigger different at lower levels in SCII).
Right now Blizzard is artificially making the game more difficult by adding ever more spells and active abilities. I am not saying that Blizzard should cater to casuals, but should maybe update its game for the year 2015, or just go back to the simplicity of 2010 Wings of Liberty. As a sidenote: automated production has been done almost a decade ago in what for many people is one of the best RTS out there: Supreme Commander. Just because you don't have to spend 95% of your game time watching your production buildings doesn't mean the game becomes 'casualised'.
Blizzard should take a cue from other genres. Dark Souls/Demon Souls and Bloodborne have a relatively 'dumbed down' control scheme (two attack modes, blocking, parrying with a shield followed by a riposte, backstabs and evasive rolls); there are no fancy combos like in Street Fighter or Mortal Combat. Regardless, DaS, DeS and BB are known to be the most challenging yet fair games of the past and current generation, because that simplicity gave players an immense amount of control over their character: most deaths are actually your own fault, not the game's. PvP is also said to be immensely fun, but I haven't tried that yet.
I don't get the impression that Blizzard is intentionally making the game harder. Sure, changing Hardened Shield to Activated Shield requires more actions, but Hardened Shield itself was a highly binary ability that was extremely limiting in terms of counterplay. Likewise, reducing resources/base may put the game on a faster clock, but it helps limit the infamous 3-hour Avilo-turtle stalemate scenarios. I think they genuinely want to make the game more exciting, but have conflated that with increasing game complexity as opposed to increasing game depth. (To explain what I mean: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVL4st0blGU)
Now, I don't think the current roster of added spells/abilities in LotV is altogether bad. I can see certain spells paying off a lot more in depth than they cost in complexity. Certain aspects actually do make the game simpler (e.g. Stalkers no longer herp-derping into Widow Mine range). And I still don't understand why you're so opposed to the proposed economy changes here, which I believe would make gameplay a lot more intuitive and map control/positioning-based. However, I do agree certain gameplay elements could be simplified. I do like the idea of automated production (mostly b/c I've had painful experiences watching people play queuing up 5 marines on one barracks every three minutes). I can see how an automated queue might work, even taking the different races' macro mechanics into consideration.
On April 17 2015 15:30 WrathofShane wrote: The fact that he didnt even consider APM negating the bad brood war AI tells me he wasnt a brood war player. As someone who had probably over 1000 games as zerg on brood war, no I dont want to go back to the 1:1
Not really any more APM required than early game worker pairing on good patches, and it's during a time where you have nothing else to do with that APM anyway. With multiple building selection and smart mining, there's not a large APM requirement during the phases where that would even be slightly beneficial. Later on it's not even a gain.
Blizzard should not be creating reasons to go click-click-click with your mouse in phases of the game where there is nothing to do. The APM-threshold is already incredibly high in this game, no reason to make it even worse.
People wonder why SC2 has lost a lot of its popularity lately but at the same time keep demanding that Blizzard artificially increase the skill floor some more. As a matter of fact, blizzard could do smart things to lower the amount of tedious things one has to do. One idea I've had lately is auto-grouping units that spawn from production buildings, e.g. marines automatically 1, tanks 2, etc. Or moving parts of the observer UI to the player UI: having on-screen indicators what is producing, what is upgrading and when it will be ready. Or god forbid actually enabling players to let units autocreate for as long as they want, so they don't have to return to their production buildings all the time, e.g. right-click the marine-button in the barracks will make the barracks autocreate the unit as long as the player has enough resources.
This would allow players to actually focus on their units and their overbearing amount of active abilities. I can't help it, but sometimes I yearn for the simplicity that was WoL back in 2010.
This has nothing to do with any of that. By spending early game APM doing these things, you manage to eek out a few minerals more than you would otherwise, and not really that many. For professional players who have nothing better to do, that's fine. For your average player, they won't see any difference at all by doing it, and it won't hurt them in any measurable way not to do it.
The amount we're talking about it is around 5-10 minerals total in difference for double harvesting. Maybe 15-20 over the course of a game when applied to multiple bases, max. It's totally negligible.
If it is totally negligible it a complete waste of time and money to have people program that into the game in the first place.
To me, a high silver-low gold level player (i.e. someone belonging to the largest group of players), there was nothing wrong with HOTS' economy. However, what I did notice is that I usually ended up spending more time looking at my production buildings than at my or my opponent's army, up to the point that 95% of my game time felt like playing a high-speed, real time city building and the other 5% actually fighting my opponent who was doing the same thing I was. If I am playing an RTS, I want to the focus to be on using my army in a strategic fashion, not on optimising my production because below master league the bigger army will usually win. Holding off cheese would be a lot more bearable (not to mention fun) if I didn't have to surrender control over my units every few seconds because I have to order my barracks to make another marine.
Some of Starcraft 2's mechanics are downright archaic and outdated, and exist only to make the game difficult for the sake of it. Sure, automising the whole production process would drastically lower the skill ceiling, but would also drastically reduce the skill threshold for new players. MOBA games, to me, seem to be about making smart strategical choices with your hero and its abilities. Starcraft 2 is about being able to click on things faster than your opponent, and in the lower leagues those things tend to be production buildings instead of army units.
So quite bluntly, my advice to blizzard would be: stop focussing on redesigning the game's economy and focus on automising the production process so people can spend more time thinking up strategies and outmanoeuvering their opponents. Do this even if you will draw the ire of the top 5% of players.
Have you considered that the starcraft games just arent for you? BW was succesful because it WASNT like all the dime a dozen RTS games out there. And now youre in here saying blizzard should cater the game to casuals even if it destroys the pro scene.
Brood War had far less active abilities and spells than SC2 has, and the really impactful ones (Plague, Dark Swarm, Psi Storm etc) were late game spells. Micomanagement was based around unit positioning and army movement. Maxing out was far less important than actually being able to efficiently use the amount of units you have (harvesting and unit production was a lot slower too, if I recall correctly). I recall having seen one game in which a Protoss player held off a rush by means of one zealot or dragoon and a shield battery. That would be impossible in SC2 because "having more stuff" will most of the time trump "knowing how to use stuff", especially if the game is riddled with anti-micro spells.
Right now Blizzard is artificially making the game more difficult by adding ever more spells and active abilities. I am not saying that Blizzard should cater to casuals, but should maybe update its game for the year 2015, or just go back to the simplicity of 2010 Wings of Liberty. As a sidenote: automated production has been done almost a decade ago in what for many people is one of the best RTS out there: Supreme Commander. Just because you don't have to spend 95% of your game time watching your production buildings doesn't mean the game becomes 'casualised'.
Blizzard should take a cue from other genres. Dark Souls/Demon Souls and Bloodborne have a relatively 'dumbed down' control scheme (two attack modes, blocking, parrying with a shield followed by a riposte, backstabs and evasive rolls); there are no fancy combos like in Street Fighter or Mortal Combat. Regardless, DaS, DeS and BB are known to be the most challenging yet fair games of the past and current generation, because that simplicity gave players an immense amount of control over their character: most deaths are actually your own fault, not the game's. PvP is also said to be immensely fun, but I haven't tried that yet.
This sounds a lot better than what you were saying, and for the most part I agree with you.
Blizzard thinks adding more spells will get people to micro more, even though this is not the kind of micro people want to see and the amount of spells in the game is getting near silly at this point.
Its definitely true that in sc2 having more stuff means you will win nearly every fight. ( unless youre zerg against forcefields). Ive said this a few times already. Losing a battle in sc2 is extremely risky, because you will lose it extremely fast and your army will be obliterated. Now your opponent is at your base within 5 seconds and you're defenseless. The huge risk of moving outside your base is a big contributor to the 200/200 style of play.
The comparison to the souls games is a little shaky, but I guess the takeaway is that even a relatively simple control scheme can create very intricate and deep gameplay. And I agree.
The only thing I do disagree with is that starcraft shouldnt focus at all on production and economy. To me thats just a huge and staple part of the game. But I guess thats just a matter of personal preference.
Im glad you came back and explained your sentiment
On April 19 2015 14:11 ZeromuS wrote: Nathanias had a showmatch with Catz And Iaguz playing.
Seems like its gonna take Zs a while to figure out the Z drone timings and how many to make but Catz brought up an interesting perspective. Zs will be greedy with hatches and probably cutting at around 12 workers per base on minerals while expanding and not necessarily hitting 16.
T and P will probably hit 16 cuz they expand so slowly anyway.
But he did say he enjoyed it and that it felt fun to play with so thats a positive! Even if he thinks Mules might need some tweaks in the future, but thats only one handful of games so we will see.
On April 19 2015 14:11 ZeromuS wrote: Nathanias had a showmatch with Catz And Iaguz playing.
Seems like its gonna take Zs a while to figure out the Z drone timings and how many to make but Catz brought up an interesting perspective. Zs will be greedy with hatches and probably cutting at around 12 workers per base on minerals while expanding and not necessarily hitting 16.
T and P will probably hit 16 cuz they expand so slowly anyway.
But he did say he enjoyed it and that it felt fun to play with so thats a positive! Even if he thinks Mules might need some tweaks in the future, but thats only one handful of games so we will see.
That really also depends on the cost efficiency of the units you use. WoL broodlord/infestor would have likely still remained op as hell for example. This model does give a bit more leeway for balancing the lategame though, which imo is one of its most appealing features.
On April 19 2015 14:11 ZeromuS wrote: Nathanias had a showmatch with Catz And Iaguz playing.
Seems like its gonna take Zs a while to figure out the Z drone timings and how many to make but Catz brought up an interesting perspective. Zs will be greedy with hatches and probably cutting at around 12 workers per base on minerals while expanding and not necessarily hitting 16.
T and P will probably hit 16 cuz they expand so slowly anyway.
But he did say he enjoyed it and that it felt fun to play with so thats a positive! Even if he thinks Mules might need some tweaks in the future, but thats only one handful of games so we will see.
"... I wonder if inefficiently saturating your first 3 bases is enough to just turtle on. ..."
Inefficiently saturating the first 3 bases to have similar to hots income means you end cut 1 or 2 mineral workers per base IF someone even wants to do that. Its not anywhere near as low as 8 or 10
Slowing down the mid game through overall lower income is up to blizzard we are just trying to be in line with their current design as much as possible. And trying to limit the mid game income to slow down the time to max out involves far more effort in balancing as well. Mineral to gas income ratios would change as the game goes longer with higher gas than minerals. So in terms of trying to change the aspect of SC2 that involves quick to max out income, thats something a little outside our current scope.
I think that would be the kind of thing blizz would need to examine for a very very long time. So in that scenario, if Blizz was to take major changes yearly in the off season like DotA and LoL then that would probably be something they collect data on for the 2017 season throughout the 2016 season for implementation.
I think the double harvest as is would would be something that could potentially happen sooner because it I think needs less testing than lowering the mining curve by a lot because it is so close to current HotS econ overall.
Still, the opened opportunity to expand vs a turtler should help in the long run. Though mech in HotS vs Zerg is brutal regardless of the economy I think haha
Can I ask how the 9min per double harvest works? Do workers just mine 4.5 minerals and do your minerals go up by 4.5 behind the scenes? I was also wondering, let's say that 10m/DH is too much and 8m/DH not enough, are there variables Blizzard can tweak to get the desired income curves? (since 9m/DH might be awkward) Like harvest time or worker speed or so, since Blizzard can supposedly change hardcoded variables outsiders don't have access to.
On April 20 2015 02:36 Grumbels wrote: Can I ask how the 9min per double harvest works? Do workers just mine 4.5 minerals and do your minerals go up by 4.5 behind the scenes? I was also wondering, let's say that 10m/DH is too much and 8m/DH not enough, are there variables Blizzard can tweak to get the desired income curves? (since 9m/DH might be awkward) Like harvest time or worker speed or so, since Blizzard can supposedly change hardcoded variables outsiders don't have access to.
9 isn't possible for us to try.
It would just basket 4.5 each time and return 9 in the model we offer.
Of course, blizzard can find a very elegant solution with time. But that takes a long time. So we are thinking of a "good for proof of concept model" that we like.
In the end the income curve will HAVE to have an early bump if they want to speed up early game. Then they just need to decide how close to HotS they want it to reach on 16 mineral and 24 mineral breakpoints.
The only variables they can tweak without breaking the AI or rewriting it for workers is related to how much workers collect, and how long it takes them to collect those mnerals. That takes a lot of tweaking and lots of small fidgeting which is tough but I think we have something thats solid enough to start testing with then figure out small tweaks later. The goal is proof of concept for now, and if it works well then thats awesome, we can do small tweaks in the long run with blizzard if this was taken on as worth trying by them.
On April 19 2015 19:25 Arkaim wrote: There should be a tournament using this Economy mod. That'd be pretty dope.
With a little more time and feedback, that's what we're hoping to do ^^
Well, I guess I need to re-install Starcraft.
If you guys need any help with the Galaxy Editor, pm know. As a custom map maker, I can do pretty much anything with it (like a graphic for workers who have 5 minerals).
On April 19 2015 04:23 SC2John wrote:
If the pro scene gets destroyed, but SC2 becomes a fun game to play, I'm not sure I could argue with it.
But they go hand in hand. The pro scene is a result of SC2 being a fun game to play.
If SC2 is a fun game to play, people will want to play it, learn and watch it and compete in tournaments for money. If it isn't fun, the opposite happens. And for a game to be fun, it has to be balanced.
It's not just fun to play that makes it competitive. It also needs to have a fair level of competition. That's why the balance is important, not for it to be fun.
The showmatch was interesting. I agree with the caster that the Mules probably just threw the matchup out of balance. I think CatZ may have made some mistakes that upset the balance, such as not abusing the increased income for some clutch static defenses, as well as just other small mistakes. However, we'll see. The long Mech game was the one that worried me. CatZ played that very well, and just simply couldn't touch it. I think that's largely due to Mech being Mech.
Im not sure mules throw things off balance. Sure the Terran can match a big econonomy without expanding just with mules, but then he could expand himself, use mules and have an even bigger income.
Also Catz looked miles behind every game because of his openings. Workers 9-16 are good enough that i think cutting them early on for an extra hatchery doesn't seem to be worth it at all; in some moments he had almost half of Iaguz's harvesters.
I think its possible Nathanias just forgets exactly how much mules do in HotS as is since you don't usually scrutinize the income charts normally.
MULEs are already really good.
I think CatZ's main issue with low worker counts was his approach. He took a VERY BW approach - of making less workers and focusing more on hatches and then once those are up getting the workers as opposed to premaking them. After the game in nathanias's chat we had a discussion and while CatZ still thinks that cutting workers compared to P and T will be standard, he thinks he might have overdone it. Something like 12-14 workers on each base while expanding greedily is probably the way forward.
But in a lot of the games catz was fairly close in income considering the mules, which is often not the case in HotS right now.
In the end one series of games isn't enough to actually make any claims regarding the balance.
IMO i think watching people play a more hots focused strategy but exploring the worker spread will probably be where we see most of the changes. Zerg has a lot of subtleties especially in ZvT regarding worker counts and when to make workers which will take a lot of time to figure out which means Z will lose, a lot, early in the econ model's lifespan because Z is so much more reliant on drone/expansion timings than the other races.
Good points. The thing that worries me about them, though, is that the MULEs don't have the same bounce that regular workers do. Is it possible to tweak it so that MULEs boot SCVs off of patches in order to mine ahead of them? As it is, it seems problematic for MULEs to not interfere with the efficiency of the workers.
You're right about the openers, though. CatZ believed too highly in the efficiency of the first 8 for that.
I think that is a weird mechanic as well. Youd expect mules to bounce from patches but they dont. I dont really see the reason why to be honest. If they did bounce theyd still be really good, but there would be a cap on lategame mule spamming which i think is a ridiculous concept.
Obsessing over mules overall isn't productive right now imo. We are currently trying to figure out exactly how this model changes the game, not any possible balance changes.
The mules seemed broken because Nathanias kept calling attention to it, which messes with your mind especially since mules are difficult to intuitively understand.
Since overall income per worker is HIGHER (until over 16 per base), T being behind on workers would hurt even more. Mules are unchanged so this should lead to mules being LESS effective. (e: as a mechanic to "catch up" to other races)
If this was played on a 8 mineral per return mod then things should be just about even (compared to HotS until you get past your 2nd base).
On April 20 2015 06:38 Teoita wrote: You aren't, mules are slightly less effective in fact.
Yup from a numbers perspective they are. I think that calling attention to the Mules more than you do normally is just making the already good mules seem better cuz its "new" economy and a "new" focus on the numbers.
If you watch incomes in progames when terrans drop mules in current hots its actually a huge spike we just don't look at it very often anymore.
I just want to say that this is really cool. Would love to see more VODs and showmatches on an alternative LotV economic model that widens the range of viable strategies while still discouraging passive games.
So much time, effort and research has clearly gone in to this article, with input from a whole host of known names.
It's pieces like this that make me grateful to have Team Liquid. Top marks to all the graphic, editors, writers and all those who helped make it. Seriously, you guys rock.
If only blizz would take 1/100th the time to comment on such a well thought out piece. If only.
On April 21 2015 02:40 loft wrote: Can someone please help me with the basic concept?
So, defense in SC2 on limited bases is extremely hard to break. This allows races, in HotS economy, to sit on 2-3 bases and create a deathball army.
I thought LotV changes were designed to remove that aspect of the game and focus on skirmish, harassment, style play.
This new proposed economy doesn't seem to be in line with the direction LotV is headed. Am I wrong?
Basically, the LotV economy forces you to expand, because the minerals run dry pretty fast. If you don't expand, you will have no money at some point. The DH economy encourages you to expand, because you can make more money with the same amount of workers if you have more bases. If you don't expand, you lose out on income, but you aren't broke immediately. In both cases, you are better off expanding, but the LotV model barely offers any alternative at all. In the DH model, you still can sit on fewer bases, but you opponent will be out-expanding you, with more income on the same worker count.
On April 21 2015 02:40 loft wrote: Can someone please help me with the basic concept?
So, defense in SC2 on limited bases is extremely hard to break. This allows races, in HotS economy, to sit on 2-3 bases and create a deathball army.
I thought LotV changes were designed to remove that aspect of the game and focus on skirmish, harassment, style play.
This new proposed economy doesn't seem to be in line with the direction LotV is headed. Am I wrong?
Basically, the LotV economy forces you to expand, because the minerals run dry pretty fast. If you don't expand, you will have no money at some point. The DH economy encourages you to expand, because you can make more money with the same amount of workers if you have more bases. If you don't expand, you lose out on income, but you aren't broke immediately. In both cases, you are better off expanding, but the LotV model barely offers any alternative at all. In the DH model, you still can sit on fewer bases, but you opponent will be out-expanding you, with more income on the same worker count.
To be correct. In LotV you're not broke immediately. You mine less efficiently after 6:30ish.
When you camp on 2 bases in LotV you are mining less than a player who has expanded to more bases (The same effect as DH).
With new DH mining you're saying alternative play added is camping on 2 bases because you wont mine out. This is going to offer players a deathball option which, as seen vs catz, can be unbeatable just like before.
To me it seems like new DH mining is banking on riding the fine line between deathball and fast expansions. I think this will end in a dominant strategy: either deathball reigns king (and we are left with same slow strategy blizz trying to remove) or aggressive expansions win (and we are left with... LotV style gameplay).
On April 21 2015 02:40 loft wrote: Can someone please help me with the basic concept?
So, defense in SC2 on limited bases is extremely hard to break. This allows races, in HotS economy, to sit on 2-3 bases and create a deathball army.
I thought LotV changes were designed to remove that aspect of the game and focus on skirmish, harassment, style play.
This new proposed economy doesn't seem to be in line with the direction LotV is headed. Am I wrong?
Basically, the LotV economy forces you to expand, because the minerals run dry pretty fast. If you don't expand, you will have no money at some point. The DH economy encourages you to expand, because you can make more money with the same amount of workers if you have more bases. If you don't expand, you lose out on income, but you aren't broke immediately. In both cases, you are better off expanding, but the LotV model barely offers any alternative at all. In the DH model, you still can sit on fewer bases, but you opponent will be out-expanding you, with more income on the same worker count.
Elaborating on it from the perspective of the non-turtling player, rewarding players for expanding beyond 3 bases (which DH does but LotV and HotS don't) means that you can counter a turtling player by expanding, which is generally the way it should be, I think.
If a player commits everything into defense it doesn't make any sense that you could break them. That would be a sign of ridiculous attacker's advantage. The solution is taking the whole map, so if they don't come out you eventually roll them.
Of course if you can max out on three bases too quickly this could still be a problem even with DH... Which is a possible reason to support a slower version of it like a DH with 8 income instead of 10. This gives you time to set up all your bases.
On April 21 2015 02:40 loft wrote: Can someone please help me with the basic concept?
So, defense in SC2 on limited bases is extremely hard to break. This allows races, in HotS economy, to sit on 2-3 bases and create a deathball army.
I thought LotV changes were designed to remove that aspect of the game and focus on skirmish, harassment, style play.
This new proposed economy doesn't seem to be in line with the direction LotV is headed. Am I wrong?
Basically, the LotV economy forces you to expand, because the minerals run dry pretty fast. If you don't expand, you will have no money at some point. The DH economy encourages you to expand, because you can make more money with the same amount of workers if you have more bases. If you don't expand, you lose out on income, but you aren't broke immediately. In both cases, you are better off expanding, but the LotV model barely offers any alternative at all. In the DH model, you still can sit on fewer bases, but you opponent will be out-expanding you, with more income on the same worker count.
Elaborating on it from the perspective of the non-turtling player, rewarding players for expanding beyond 3 bases (which DH does but LotV and HotS don't) means that you can counter a turtling player by expanding, which is generally the way it should be, I think.
If a player commits everything into defense it doesn't make any sense that you could break them. That would be a sign of ridiculous attacker's advantage. The solution is taking the whole map, so if they don't come out you eventually roll them.
Of course if you can max out on three bases too quickly this could still be a problem even with DH... Which is a possible reason to support a slower version of it like a DH with 8 income instead of 10. This gives you time to set up all your bases.
beating a turtling player by expanding is exactly why you will crush someone in LotV as well. You're just dragging the game on with the illusion that turtling is viable with new DH. (Like I said before, OR turtling is viable and deathball wins after sitting on limited bases. Which is something blizz obviously doesn't want to encourage)
On April 21 2015 02:40 loft wrote: Can someone please help me with the basic concept?
So, defense in SC2 on limited bases is extremely hard to break. This allows races, in HotS economy, to sit on 2-3 bases and create a deathball army.
I thought LotV changes were designed to remove that aspect of the game and focus on skirmish, harassment, style play.
This new proposed economy doesn't seem to be in line with the direction LotV is headed. Am I wrong?
Basically, the LotV economy forces you to expand, because the minerals run dry pretty fast. If you don't expand, you will have no money at some point. The DH economy encourages you to expand, because you can make more money with the same amount of workers if you have more bases. If you don't expand, you lose out on income, but you aren't broke immediately. In both cases, you are better off expanding, but the LotV model barely offers any alternative at all. In the DH model, you still can sit on fewer bases, but you opponent will be out-expanding you, with more income on the same worker count.
Elaborating on it from the perspective of the non-turtling player, rewarding players for expanding beyond 3 bases (which DH does but LotV and HotS don't) means that you can counter a turtling player by expanding, which is generally the way it should be, I think.
If a player commits everything into defense it doesn't make any sense that you could break them. That would be a sign of ridiculous attacker's advantage. The solution is taking the whole map, so if they don't come out you eventually roll them.
Of course if you can max out on three bases too quickly this could still be a problem even with DH... Which is a possible reason to support a slower version of it like a DH with 8 income instead of 10. This gives you time to set up all your bases.
beating a turtling player by expanding is exactly why you will crush someone in LotV as well. You're just dragging the game on with the illusion that turtling is viable with new DH. (Like I said before, OR turtling is viable and deathball wins after sitting on limited bases. Which is something blizz obviously doesn't want to encourage)
Turtling should be viable, but you should be able to fight against it. I don't understand why you'd handwave away the idea there could be a middle-ground with turtling being possible but not without counterplay to make it more interesting. Furthermore, there is nothing in DH preventing you from lowering minerals per patch.
On April 21 2015 02:40 loft wrote: Can someone please help me with the basic concept?
So, defense in SC2 on limited bases is extremely hard to break. This allows races, in HotS economy, to sit on 2-3 bases and create a deathball army.
I thought LotV changes were designed to remove that aspect of the game and focus on skirmish, harassment, style play.
This new proposed economy doesn't seem to be in line with the direction LotV is headed. Am I wrong?
Basically, the LotV economy forces you to expand, because the minerals run dry pretty fast. If you don't expand, you will have no money at some point. The DH economy encourages you to expand, because you can make more money with the same amount of workers if you have more bases. If you don't expand, you lose out on income, but you aren't broke immediately. In both cases, you are better off expanding, but the LotV model barely offers any alternative at all. In the DH model, you still can sit on fewer bases, but you opponent will be out-expanding you, with more income on the same worker count.
Elaborating on it from the perspective of the non-turtling player, rewarding players for expanding beyond 3 bases (which DH does but LotV and HotS don't) means that you can counter a turtling player by expanding, which is generally the way it should be, I think.
If a player commits everything into defense it doesn't make any sense that you could break them. That would be a sign of ridiculous attacker's advantage. The solution is taking the whole map, so if they don't come out you eventually roll them.
Of course if you can max out on three bases too quickly this could still be a problem even with DH... Which is a possible reason to support a slower version of it like a DH with 8 income instead of 10. This gives you time to set up all your bases.
beating a turtling player by expanding is exactly why you will crush someone in LotV as well. You're just dragging the game on with the illusion that turtling is viable with new DH. (Like I said before, OR turtling is viable and deathball wins after sitting on limited bases. Which is something blizz obviously doesn't want to encourage)
Turtling should be viable, but you should be able to fight against it. I don't understand why you'd handwave away the idea there could be a middle-ground with turtling being possible but not without counterplay to make it more interesting. Furthermore, there is nothing in DH preventing you from lowering minerals per patch.
I'm not "handwave'ing anything away. I think strategic defensive play should be viable. Good examples of this include stasis from oracle, lurkers on choke points, tanks from terran (easily repositioned with dropship).
It was my impression that turtling (or amassing a deathball while sitting on low income) was a boring/slow aspect of the game blizz is trying to improve.
Well I guess it depends on how you define turtling. But... I think defensive play that then has a counter-strategy of expanding that then encourages aggression from the non-expanding player is pretty alright. If the other player can't break the turtle or gain an advantage by expanding I think that's when it becomes boring.
I think DH works better than half patches because you get an immediate increase in income when you expand. You don't need to wait for you opponent to partly mine out before you get an advantage over their defensive playstyle. At the same time, you aren't punished too hard if you expand too late. It's a soft, dynamic sort of reward for expanding. The sooner you expand the better, instead of a black and white of before you mine out (fine) or after (not fine.)
With half patches it's a yes/no question of "do you expand before you start mining out?" instead of "When do you expand?" with DH.
On April 21 2015 04:31 Gfire wrote: Well I guess it depends on how you define turtling. But... I think defensive play that then has a counter-strategy of expanding that then encourages aggression from the non-expanding player is pretty alright. If the other player can't break the turtle or gain an advantage by expanding I think that's when it becomes boring.
I think DH works better than half patches because you get an immediate increase in income when you expand. You don't need to wait for you opponent to partly mine out before you get an advantage over their defensive playstyle. At the same time, you aren't punished too hard if you expand too late. It's a soft, dynamic sort of reward for expanding. The sooner you expand the better, instead of a black and white of before you mine out (fine) or after (not fine.)
With half patches it's a yes/no question of "do you expand before you start mining out?" instead of "When do you expand?" with DH.
Yeah I see what you're saying. Thanks for giving me clear insight on the DH economy.
Guess it's hard to decide if this change is worth making when protoss can't even hold a 2nd base in lotv. Lot's of stuff to focus on.
Awesome work from the TL team, props to everyone working on it. It really shows Blizzard how dedicated the Starcraft community actually is, and also how bad they want the game to be better.
I really, REALLY hope that the dev team takes notes from this article.
I gave my summary/commentary on this article during my interview on http://theweeklyallin.com/?p=200, working on a video based off on this, so hit me up if you have any constructive criticism!
Hey JaKaTaKSc2, just wanted to let you know that your link to this page in the mag you linked doesn't work. It appears that the line break breaks the link. Maybe get a hold of the editors?
Also, if anyone wants to play, I'm in the group chat on NA.
Ok, I really want this to happen, I've played both the beta and this eco mod and I really really prefer the mod over the eco changes in LotV.
This is my proposal, I have 90$ lying around that is probably just going to get blown in Vegas next month so instead I want a caster to do a King of the Hill. Format is 3 wins=15$ if that can't draw interested parties I guess that's all I've got. First caster with an active channel gets the money.
On April 21 2015 08:21 Gofarman wrote: Ok, I really want this to happen, I've played both the beta and this eco mod and I really really prefer the mod over the eco changes in LotV.
This is my proposal, I have 90$ lying around that is probably just going to get blown in Vegas next month so instead I want a caster to do a King of the Hill. Format is 3 wins=15$ if that can't draw interested parties I guess that's all I've got. First caster with an active channel gets the money.
I like the saturation curve but dislike the feel of the implementation. Feels macgyver'd, like the community did it instead of the developer
I hope they implement and test the exact same sat. curve in a slightly different way- probably just longer mining time, more minerals per trip, and slower movement speed?
On April 21 2015 08:21 Gofarman wrote: Ok, I really want this to happen, I've played both the beta and this eco mod and I really really prefer the mod over the eco changes in LotV.
This is my proposal, I have 90$ lying around that is probably just going to get blown in Vegas next month so instead I want a caster to do a King of the Hill. Format is 3 wins=15$ if that can't draw interested parties I guess that's all I've got. First caster with an active channel gets the money.
Noted, I might do some shopping with your offer
Ask Basetrade. They love this sort of thing, when they can fund it. The problem is that a single koth tourney won't showcase the economy very effectively unless the players are quite practiced at it.
On April 21 2015 08:21 Gofarman wrote: Ok, I really want this to happen, I've played both the beta and this eco mod and I really really prefer the mod over the eco changes in LotV.
This is my proposal, I have 90$ lying around that is probably just going to get blown in Vegas next month so instead I want a caster to do a King of the Hill. Format is 3 wins=15$ if that can't draw interested parties I guess that's all I've got. First caster with an active channel gets the money.
Noted, I might do some shopping with your offer
Ask Basetrade. They love this sort of thing, when they can fund it. The problem is that a single koth tourney won't showcase the economy very effectively unless the players are quite practiced at it.
Something is better then nothing, no?
If nothing is the baseline how are players ever going to practice it?
While I really do like your idea, it feels like it moves away from the LotV design that Blizzard is toying with right now. I think it might be better to try something that fits into their idea better, while still having a more rewarding situation for expanding vs not expanding, while not killing off the non-expanding player right off the bat.
I propose that instead of 4x1500 and 4x750 patches, we take different values. Example:
4x2250 nodes 2x 1500 nodes 2x 750 nodes
This change would make it so that it becomes less efficient to not expand vs maynarding workers to fresh bases at one point, but you don't run out of minerals and are not neccessarily forced to expand because there is simply 4 nodes left as early.
It becomes progressively worse but you still have enough minerals to keep mining for a while. So while you can for example turtle or go for a 2 base timing, you will build up your army more slowly or recover more slowly from a failed two base, but still have a fighting chance while giving more benefits to the player who expands more and earlier. I feel that this is more easily accomplished than changing the way workers behave. It also prevents a complete overhaul of the game design due to massive changes in mining function for workers and economic values for units being skewed.
Then from the 3rd base onward mapmakers can also use gold nodes and high yield geysers so that everything beyond the 3rd base requires less workers to saturate a base providing similar income to what it is for a normal HotS base. A gold base could have something like:
2x 2250 2x 1500 2x 750
1x High yield geyser
All in all, I think it is a lot better to work on improving the economy flow with existing properties that do not completely flip the game and require massive redesigns to values and such. This is easier to implement for Blizzard and a lot easier for casuals and viewers to understand. It also makes it easier for mapmakers to play around with it and for players to test and understand, coming from HotS.
I scrambled this down quickly before going off to university so I hope it makes enough sense. I will write more and respond later if people have feedback on this variation. Keep up the good fight and thanks for this great article that opened the discussion on the economy of StarCraft!
This thread is so long. Is there a TL;DR of op and a TL;DR of comments?
From my skimming I just read that op wants workers to gather 10 per trip and not allow a perfect mining fit of 2 workers (so making them mine longer?). I don't really know.
Tbh, BW economy was fine. Why can't they just replicate that?
IIRC, blizzard's logic for making it 5 per trip was to "even it out, because 8 was just weird." which is completely irrelevant, because often times in a game you cancel stuff or whatever and it becomes uneven anyway.
On April 21 2015 16:04 Archiatrus wrote: Since you asked us to send you replays, what exactly are you going to do with them?
build a case study of real game data to reinforce their argument, i imagine
But what EXACTLY are they analyzing? I am just wondering how you compare the two different approaches for the economy. I mean: how do you measure "it is more rewarding to expand" for example? Or "there is more diversity"?
I feel like, looking at the comparisons between 3 - 5 bases for this new model, that the incentive to boost your income by splitting workers among expansions is just not high enough...I can already foresee how this mod is going to be played out by high level players...They're just going to play it like it is vanilla HotS, IMO. Also what about mules?
Love your work, really well done and brimming with passion. Cool to see. (Also, I really want a return to one gas per base...the extra three supply freed up per base is just....wow).
He has a good point, that right now it's a bit early to say definitively whether defensive styles have been weakened enough to warrant a change in economy. He argued that LOTV discourages toxic ultra-turtle compositions like old swarm hosts and raven mech, but I wonder if he's also considered other styles like aggressive mech, etc.
On April 21 2015 18:08 MarlieChurphy wrote: This thread is so long. Is there a TL;DR of op and a TL;DR of comments?
From my skimming I just read that op wants workers to gather 10 per trip and not allow a perfect mining fit of 2 workers (so making them mine longer?). I don't really know.
Tbh, BW economy was fine. Why can't they just replicate that?
IIRC, blizzard's logic for making it 5 per trip was to "even it out, because 8 was just weird." which is completely irrelevant, because often times in a game you cancel stuff or whatever and it becomes uneven anyway.
That's more or less correct. Basically, the fact that workers pair on mineral nodes allows a perfect 2:1 ratio, meaning that the first 16 workers per base mine at 100% efficiency. By the time you get to 3 bases, all bases are running on perfect efficiency with little room left for army, meaning that on 3 bases (or 24 nodes), you have no incentive to expand other than extra gas income.
In a suggested model, we can solve this by dropping the efficiency below 2:1 (even 1.99:1 is an improvement). This means that the first 8 workers will have 100% efficiency, meaning that you need to spread out to 4-5 bases in order to get the same efficient income as you would in HotS. This has a lot of the same effects of the LotV economy without punishing certain styles and creating a feeling of mineral starvation.
On April 21 2015 22:09 Insidioussc2 wrote: After testing (no beta only mods): I prefer the lotv model, even if 1500/750 feels a little low
Any particular I sight as to why? Is it just because players are pacing expansions quicker?
Keep in mind the LotV units added and changes to for example colossus go a LONG way in disrupting the death ball feel of sc2 not JUST the economy.
Though the cyclone death ball is a thing now haha
Tried my best to keep balancing out of it!
I fear of two options for DH, once it gets played a lot, to turn out: Being very similar two HOTS eco, only with slightly more time pressure for turtle play, or a more boring approach to the lotv "hyper economy". Either the reward for more bases is too small to take the risk of more bases, or high enough to make early expaning mandatory.
The room for the desired middle ground is very small, I feel. But maybe I just couldn't observe the proper outcome yet.
I think, where DH promotes clever builds, LotV eco is more about chaos and reactions. Let me explain that a bit: Simply by adding a reward for expanding after 3 base, DH could give you more builds and options, while not too heavily limiting existing ones. More builds also means of course importance of scouting and reactions, but maybe less than in LotV? I assume that because your income curve in LotV is changing all the time. Depending on which bases you and your opponent can get away with, the time when you do so, the amount of haras and how many workers being sent to which base, the game situation constantly changes. You have to keep in mind more factors than just how many workers on how many bases to calculate income and where you stand in the game.
And I don't really agree with the argument that it limits certain options. In the current LotV build defensive strats might be vastly inferior, this can be changed by more than just the economy though. But maybe map controll will be more important, I wouldn't be sad about that either. In certain HotS matchups you can already see that map controll can be more than camping with an army in front of your enemys choke. For example in bio vs. zerg or tvt it is a constant struggle, with both players switching between aggression and defense all the time. The new eco promotes this, seen in some awsome beta tvts (see mma vs heromarine or supernova - maybe the only MU with decent unit balance right now) If they find a way to make the fight for map controll better for Protoss or find a different way to make defensive play viable again, I really really like the new economy.
This being said, DH is still much better to HotS eco and I appreciate all the time and analysing you guys put into this article!
On April 21 2015 22:09 Insidioussc2 wrote: After testing (no beta only mods): I prefer the lotv model, even if 1500/750 feels a little low
Any particular I sight as to why? Is it just because players are pacing expansions quicker?
Keep in mind the LotV units added and changes to for example colossus go a LONG way in disrupting the death ball feel of sc2 not JUST the economy.
Though the cyclone death ball is a thing now haha
Tried my best to keep balancing out of it!
I fear of two options for DH, once it gets played a lot, to turn out: Being very similar two HOTS eco, only with slightly more time pressure for turtle play, or a more boring approach to the lotv "hyper economy". Either the reward for more bases is too small to take the risk of more bases, or high enough to make early expaning mandatory.
The room for the desired middle ground is very small, I feel. But maybe I just couldn't observe the proper outcome yet.
I think, where DH promotes clever builds, LotV eco is more about chaos and reactions. Let me explain that a bit: Simply by adding a reward for expanding after 3 base, DH could give you more builds and options, while not too heavily limiting existing ones. More builds also means of course importance of scouting and reactions, but maybe less than in LotV? I assume that because your income curve in LotV is changing all the time. Depending on which bases you and your opponent can get away with, the time when you do so, the amount of haras and how many workers being sent to which base, the game situation constantly changes. You have to keep in mind more factors than just how many workers on how many bases to calculate income and where you stand in the game.
And I don't really agree with the argument that it limits certain options. In the current LotV build defensive strats might be vastly inferior, this can be changed by more than just the economy though. But maybe map controll will be more important, I wouldn't be sad about that either. In certain HotS matchups you can already see that map controll can be more than camping with an army in front of your enemys choke. For example in bio vs. zerg or tvt it is a constant struggle, with both players switching between aggression and defense all the time. The new eco promotes this, seen in some awsome beta tvts (see mma vs heromarine or supernova - maybe the only MU with decent unit balance right now) If they find a way to make the fight for map controll better for Protoss or find a different way to make defensive play viable again, I really really like the new economy.
This being said, DH is still much better to HotS eco and I appreciate all the time and analysing you guys put into this article!
The big misconception I think that a lot of people have about this proposed economy is that they think we believe it will somehow "fix" the game by itself. It won't. Everyone who brings up unit design and core design concepts (i.e. warpgate vs gateways, lack of high ground advantage, etc.) definitely has a lot of points, and the game can certainly improve with changes to those areas as well. The reason we're pushing for economy is not because we think it's a miracle solution to turtling and 3-base maxouts but because we think it overall promotes a healthier direction for SC2.
A big reason for pushing the economy over any other changes is that for the first time Blizzard seems to be willing to make big changes to a core design aspect of the game in the form of economy; why not try another economic system also? Another key point is that everything is affected by the economy (even so in LotV), so trying to create a healthier economy will hopefully make unit design and other aspects of the game less problematic.
On April 21 2015 22:09 Insidioussc2 wrote: After testing (no beta only mods): I prefer the lotv model, even if 1500/750 feels a little low
Any particular I sight as to why? Is it just because players are pacing expansions quicker?
Keep in mind the LotV units added and changes to for example colossus go a LONG way in disrupting the death ball feel of sc2 not JUST the economy.
Though the cyclone death ball is a thing now haha
Tried my best to keep balancing out of it!
I fear of two options for DH, once it gets played a lot, to turn out: Being very similar two HOTS eco, only with slightly more time pressure for turtle play, or a more boring approach to the lotv "hyper economy". Either the reward for more bases is too small to take the risk of more bases, or high enough to make early expaning mandatory.
The room for the desired middle ground is very small, I feel. But maybe I just couldn't observe the proper outcome yet.
I think, where DH promotes clever builds, LotV eco is more about chaos and reactions. Let me explain that a bit: Simply by adding a reward for expanding after 3 base, DH could give you more builds and options, while not too heavily limiting existing ones. More builds also means of course importance of scouting and reactions, but maybe less than in LotV? I assume that because your income curve in LotV is changing all the time. Depending on which bases you and your opponent can get away with, the time when you do so, the amount of haras and how many workers being sent to which base, the game situation constantly changes. You have to keep in mind more factors than just how many workers on how many bases to calculate income and where you stand in the game.
And I don't really agree with the argument that it limits certain options. In the current LotV build defensive strats might be vastly inferior, this can be changed by more than just the economy though. But maybe map controll will be more important, I wouldn't be sad about that either. In certain HotS matchups you can already see that map controll can be more than camping with an army in front of your enemys choke. For example in bio vs. zerg or tvt it is a constant struggle, with both players switching between aggression and defense all the time. The new eco promotes this, seen in some awsome beta tvts (see mma vs heromarine or supernova - maybe the only MU with decent unit balance right now) If they find a way to make the fight for map controll better for Protoss or find a different way to make defensive play viable again, I really really like the new economy.
This being said, DH is still much better to HotS eco and I appreciate all the time and analysing you guys put into this article!
The big misconception I think that a lot of people have about this proposed economy is that they think we believe it will somehow "fix" the game by itself. It won't. Everyone who brings up unit design and core design concepts (i.e. warpgate vs gateways, lack of high ground advantage, etc.) definitely has a lot of points, and the game can certainly improve with changes to those areas as well. The reason we're pushing for economy is not because we think it's a miracle solution to turtling and 3-base maxouts but because we think it overall promotes a healthier direction for SC2.
A big reason for pushing the economy over any other changes is that for the first time Blizzard seems to be willing to make big changes to a core design aspect of the game in the form of economy; why not try another economic system also? Another key point is that everything is affected by the economy (even so in LotV), so trying to create a healthier economy will hopefully make unit design and other aspects of the game less problematic.
I never had the conception that either economy will fix the game, I just think that bases getting less effecitve over time or at certain points, as it is in LotV, is a great idea! I hope they won't change that, even if they decide to try DH
On April 21 2015 22:09 Insidioussc2 wrote: After testing (no beta only mods): I prefer the lotv model, even if 1500/750 feels a little low
Any particular I sight as to why? Is it just because players are pacing expansions quicker?
Keep in mind the LotV units added and changes to for example colossus go a LONG way in disrupting the death ball feel of sc2 not JUST the economy.
Though the cyclone death ball is a thing now haha
Tried my best to keep balancing out of it!
I fear of two options for DH, once it gets played a lot, to turn out: Being very similar two HOTS eco, only with slightly more time pressure for turtle play, or a more boring approach to the lotv "hyper economy". Either the reward for more bases is too small to take the risk of more bases, or high enough to make early expaning mandatory.
The room for the desired middle ground is very small, I feel. But maybe I just couldn't observe the proper outcome yet.
I think, where DH promotes clever builds, LotV eco is more about chaos and reactions. Let me explain that a bit: Simply by adding a reward for expanding after 3 base, DH could give you more builds and options, while not too heavily limiting existing ones. More builds also means of course importance of scouting and reactions, but maybe less than in LotV? I assume that because your income curve in LotV is changing all the time. Depending on which bases you and your opponent can get away with, the time when you do so, the amount of haras and how many workers being sent to which base, the game situation constantly changes. You have to keep in mind more factors than just how many workers on how many bases to calculate income and where you stand in the game.
And I don't really agree with the argument that it limits certain options. In the current LotV build defensive strats might be vastly inferior, this can be changed by more than just the economy though. But maybe map controll will be more important, I wouldn't be sad about that either. In certain HotS matchups you can already see that map controll can be more than camping with an army in front of your enemys choke. For example in bio vs. zerg or tvt it is a constant struggle, with both players switching between aggression and defense all the time. The new eco promotes this, seen in some awsome beta tvts (see mma vs heromarine or supernova - maybe the only MU with decent unit balance right now) If they find a way to make the fight for map controll better for Protoss or find a different way to make defensive play viable again, I really really like the new economy.
This being said, DH is still much better to HotS eco and I appreciate all the time and analysing you guys put into this article!
The big misconception I think that a lot of people have about this proposed economy is that they think we believe it will somehow "fix" the game by itself. It won't. Everyone who brings up unit design and core design concepts (i.e. warpgate vs gateways, lack of high ground advantage, etc.) definitely has a lot of points, and the game can certainly improve with changes to those areas as well. The reason we're pushing for economy is not because we think it's a miracle solution to turtling and 3-base maxouts but because we think it overall promotes a healthier direction for SC2.
A big reason for pushing the economy over any other changes is that for the first time Blizzard seems to be willing to make big changes to a core design aspect of the game in the form of economy; why not try another economic system also? Another key point is that everything is affected by the economy (even so in LotV), so trying to create a healthier economy will hopefully make unit design and other aspects of the game less problematic.
I never had the conception that either economy will fix the game, I just think that bases getting less effecitve over time or at certain points, as it is in LotV, is a great idea! I hope they won't change that, even if they decide to try DH
I personally think the overall lower resources at a base is a fine direction to take, we just didnt implement it yet because we want to see how the workers impact the way the game plays out first, and then see how the lowered mineral counts work later perhaps.
I think if we change too many variables at once it becomes hard to see exactly where the mining changes are working if its the reduced income potential or the mining rate. So we are trying one at a time.
In the end we think that the spreading of workers is still a better direction than simply using the half patches and that combined with an approach that reduces overall base mineral and gas evenly across all patches/geysers is probably the best way forward.
Playing with the amount of minerals in the reduced patches will never achieve what's necessary.
Anyway, we just have to keep playing games, keep talking about this and exploring it, and keep making Blizzard aware of it all.
Whether or not DH is better than the current LotV economy, LotV seems like it will just be another "good enough" game by Blizzard. Currently, it feels like "raw brawling" instead of a real-time strategy game, let alone StarCraft.
Sure, this may be a longer beta, but considering Blizzard's track record, unless they want to release it late next year or beyond, there is no way for them to revisit the economy after continuing this one. The economy should be one of the first priorities to solidify. It seems like Blizzard does not understand and/or is disregarding the significance of the finer (yet very important) details of economy.
Also, the economy is being overshadowed by the beta invite talk. >_>
Playing with the amount of minerals in the reduced patches will never achieve what's necessary.
Anyway, we just have to keep playing games, keep talking about this and exploring it, and keep making Blizzard aware of it all.
It's awesome that's he's read the article. It's not awesome that he doesn't understand the model.
There are two clear, opposing ways we can go in terms of iteration. More advantage towards teching vs. more advantage towards expanding. The community suggestion takes it heavily towards the expanding advantage, whereas closer we go towards the HotS model takes it back to teching advantage. What we mean by this is let's take the case of a player who is teching on 2 bases going up against a player who isn't teching and has 4 bases:
- In the HotS resourcing model, the 2nd player has almost no econ advantage (due to it being difficult to fully saturate every base + how the mining works per base) - In the community suggestion model the 2nd player will have near double the econ advantage (due to it being pretty easy to fully saturate every base) - In the Void model, we have something in between the above
Gonna put some graphs together and illustrate why his example doesn't hold up in reality.
Additionally, I think most of the community would be quite happy if a 4 base player had a raging economy over a 2 base turtle player and was easily able to destroy him. Surely that's in line with Blizz design goals -_-;
There are two clear, opposing ways we can go in terms of iteration. More advantage towards teching vs. more advantage towards expanding. The community suggestion takes it heavily towards the expanding advantage, whereas closer we go towards the HotS model takes it back to teching advantage. What we mean by this is let's take the case of a player who is teching on 2 bases going up against a player who isn't teching and has 4 bases:
- In the HotS resourcing model, the 2nd player has almost no econ advantage (due to it being difficult to fully saturate every base + how the mining works per base) - In the community suggestion model the 2nd player will have near double the econ advantage (due to it being pretty easy to fully saturate every base) - In the Void model, we have something in between the above
Gonna put some graphs together and illustrate why his example doesn't hold up in reality.
Additionally, I think most of the community would be quite happy if a 4 base player had a raging economy over a 2 base turtle player and was easily able to destroy him. Surely that's in line with Blizz design goals -_-;
Yeah, the only way to get the right people to understand what is being said here is to keep showing them data, and keep showing them games.
Bolded point seems like such a no brainer to me. Yes, someone playing in that style and being on the defensive should still always have opportunities to win either with teching or timing attacks, but they shouldn't be able to just endlessly trade and be ok.
Anyway, big project at work is done so I have a good bit of free time for the next couple weeks. I'll be playing the crap out of LotV and this DH mod in HotS. Is there an in-game channel for DH in HotS that people are using to set up matches?
edit: nm, announcement at the top of every page on this post explains it all
There are two clear, opposing ways we can go in terms of iteration. More advantage towards teching vs. more advantage towards expanding. The community suggestion takes it heavily towards the expanding advantage, whereas closer we go towards the HotS model takes it back to teching advantage. What we mean by this is let's take the case of a player who is teching on 2 bases going up against a player who isn't teching and has 4 bases:
- In the HotS resourcing model, the 2nd player has almost no econ advantage (due to it being difficult to fully saturate every base + how the mining works per base) - In the community suggestion model the 2nd player will have near double the econ advantage (due to it being pretty easy to fully saturate every base) - In the Void model, we have something in between the above
Gonna put some graphs together and illustrate why his example doesn't hold up in reality.
Additionally, I think most of the community would be quite happy if a 4 base player had a raging economy over a 2 base turtle player and was easily able to destroy him. Surely that's in line with Blizz design goals -_-;
Exactly this. Blizzard needs to understand the beauty and details of timings, expanding, teching, and their relationships. Blizzard/DK does not even seem to understand DH or the LotV model. The bullets in DK's response are blatantly false.
There are two clear, opposing ways we can go in terms of iteration. More advantage towards teching vs. more advantage towards expanding. The community suggestion takes it heavily towards the expanding advantage, whereas closer we go towards the HotS model takes it back to teching advantage. What we mean by this is let's take the case of a player who is teching on 2 bases going up against a player who isn't teching and has 4 bases:
- In the HotS resourcing model, the 2nd player has almost no econ advantage (due to it being difficult to fully saturate every base + how the mining works per base) - In the community suggestion model the 2nd player will have near double the econ advantage (due to it being pretty easy to fully saturate every base) - In the Void model, we have something in between the above
Gonna put some graphs together and illustrate why his example doesn't hold up in reality.
Additionally, I think most of the community would be quite happy if a 4 base player had a raging economy over a 2 base turtle player and was easily able to destroy him. Surely that's in line with Blizz design goals -_-;
I have a huge problem with exactly what you quoted. The economically-ahead player will not have double the economic advantage in the community model. That would require double the workers on double the bases, since the rate income increases diminishes with additional workers. 48 workers on four bases would be somewhat better than 48 workers on two bases, in fact a lot better since they're much more efficient, but you aren't getting the same economy twice over. If I'm not mistaken, that would be 96 workers on four bases, or 48 workers on two bases and 48 on the other two.
In the void model, the situation is more extreme than the community suggestion model almost every time. By the time one player can get four bases and an even number of workers, the person on two bases has almost certainly mined out some of the patches in his main base, so his workers will be even more inefficient compared to the player on four bases.
Playing with the amount of minerals in the reduced patches will never achieve what's necessary.
Anyway, we just have to keep playing games, keep talking about this and exploring it, and keep making Blizzard aware of it all.
It's awesome that's he's read the article. It's not awesome that he doesn't understand the model.
There are two clear, opposing ways we can go in terms of iteration. More advantage towards teching vs. more advantage towards expanding. The community suggestion takes it heavily towards the expanding advantage, whereas closer we go towards the HotS model takes it back to teching advantage. What we mean by this is let's take the case of a player who is teching on 2 bases going up against a player who isn't teching and has 4 bases:
- In the HotS resourcing model, the 2nd player has almost no econ advantage (due to it being difficult to fully saturate every base + how the mining works per base) - In the community suggestion model the 2nd player will have near double the econ advantage (due to it being pretty easy to fully saturate every base) - In the Void model, we have something in between the above
Gonna put some graphs together and illustrate why his example doesn't hold up in reality.
Additionally, I think most of the community would be quite happy if a 4 base player had a raging economy over a 2 base turtle player and was easily able to destroy him. Surely that's in line with Blizz design goals -_-;
I have a huge problem with exactly what you quoted. The economically-ahead player will not have double the economic advantage in the community model. That would require double the workers on double the bases, since the rate income increases diminishes with additional workers. 48 workers on four bases would be somewhat better than 48 workers on two bases, in fact a lot better since they're much more efficient, but you aren't getting the same economy twice over. If I'm not mistaken, that would be 96 workers on four bases, or 48 workers on two bases and 48 on the other two.
In the void model, the situation is more extreme than the community suggestion model almost every time. By the time one player can get four bases and an even number of workers, the person on two bases has almost certainly mined out some of the patches in his main base, so his workers will be even more inefficient compared to the player on four bases.
The Void model takes it to an unreasonable extreme, though. It makes defensive play almost impossible since you simply start running out of money way too fast.
As the author of the original Double Harvest idea I would like to question one of the statements in your otherwise very good post. It is pleasent to see one's idea to sparkle more ideas.
But my question is: Why do you say that breaking the worker pairing is necessairy for a good income curve?
As long as 2-worker-per-patch harvest at less than 100% income, you still get the benefit of having 2 bases with 8 workers each over 1 base with 16 workers. The original DH approach did exactly that: workers still aligned nicely, without any AI weird searching for new patches. This was achieved while still allowing having some benefit in the 16-24 (and even higher) worker count in a base - a topic which is almost nonexistent in your post.
You do not need DH approach to have 8-16 worker loose efficiency with a hard cap at 16 per base. But having hard cap at 16 is, in my opinion, too punishing!
Are there other reasons why you didn't like the original DH numbers? If not - why didn't you use the original DH numbers?
Playing with the amount of minerals in the reduced patches will never achieve what's necessary.
Anyway, we just have to keep playing games, keep talking about this and exploring it, and keep making Blizzard aware of it all.
It's awesome that's he's read the article. It's not awesome that he doesn't understand the model.
There are two clear, opposing ways we can go in terms of iteration. More advantage towards teching vs. more advantage towards expanding. The community suggestion takes it heavily towards the expanding advantage, whereas closer we go towards the HotS model takes it back to teching advantage. What we mean by this is let's take the case of a player who is teching on 2 bases going up against a player who isn't teching and has 4 bases:
- In the HotS resourcing model, the 2nd player has almost no econ advantage (due to it being difficult to fully saturate every base + how the mining works per base) - In the community suggestion model the 2nd player will have near double the econ advantage (due to it being pretty easy to fully saturate every base) - In the Void model, we have something in between the above
Gonna put some graphs together and illustrate why his example doesn't hold up in reality.
Additionally, I think most of the community would be quite happy if a 4 base player had a raging economy over a 2 base turtle player and was easily able to destroy him. Surely that's in line with Blizz design goals -_-;
I have a huge problem with exactly what you quoted. The economically-ahead player will not have double the economic advantage in the community model. That would require double the workers on double the bases, since the rate income increases diminishes with additional workers. 48 workers on four bases would be somewhat better than 48 workers on two bases, in fact a lot better since they're much more efficient, but you aren't getting the same economy twice over. If I'm not mistaken, that would be 96 workers on four bases, or 48 workers on two bases and 48 on the other two.
In the void model, the situation is more extreme than the community suggestion model almost every time. By the time one player can get four bases and an even number of workers, the person on two bases has almost certainly mined out some of the patches in his main base, so his workers will be even more inefficient compared to the player on four bases.
The Void model takes it to an unreasonable extreme, though. It makes defensive play almost impossible since you simply start running out of money way too fast.
Exactly. Your income from your first two bases is already deteriorating by the time you even get to this situation (4 bases vs 2) in LotV.
On April 22 2015 04:53 BlackLilium wrote: As the author of the original Double Harvest idea I would like to question one of the statements in your otherwise very good post. It is pleasent to see one's idea to sparkle more ideas.
But my question is: Why do you say that breaking the worker pairing is necessairy for a good income curve?
As long as 2-worker-per-patch harvest at less than 100% income, you still get the benefit of having 2 bases with 8 workers each over 1 base with 16 workers. The original DH approach did exactly that: workers still aligned nicely, without any AI weird searching for new patches. This was achieved while still allowing having some benefit in the 16-24 (and even higher) worker count in a base - a topic which is almost nonexistent in your post.
You do not need DH approach to have 8-16 worker loose efficiency with a hard cap at 16 per base. But having hard cap at 16 is, in my opinion, too punishing!
Are there other reasons why you didn't like the original DH numbers? If not - why didn't you use the original DH numbers?
The hard cap is still 24, the efficiency just starts to drop after 8 harvesters, and then more severely at 16. With this proposed income, you still mine more per minute on base with with 24 workers vs 16. It's just much less efficient than HotS model when you break the worker pairing.
The reasoning behind doing it this way is to encourage players to take more bases if they really want to take advantage of more workers.
On April 22 2015 05:12 KrazyTrumpet wrote: The hard cap is still 24, the efficiency just starts to drop after 8 harvesters, and then more severely at 16. With this proposed income, you still mine more per minute on base with with 24 workers vs 16. It's just much less efficient than HotS model when you break the worker pairing.
The reasoning behind doing it this way is to encourage players to take more bases if they really want to take advantage of more workers.
Thank you for clarification. I was worried it is not the case, since each mineral patch is already very busy with 2 workers, on average, trying to mine from it.
I will probably do my own testing when I have time to convince myself even further
Let's not ignore the open dialogue Blizzard is engaging in regarding the post about the double harvest model. Plexa is currently working on a response post, as we believe we can reply to the position of blizzard using some examples related to the examples he gave in his own post (4 base vs 2).
The income is not double that for the 4 base player in our model. It is an increase but not nearly this substantial. There might be a slight misunderstanding on the approach that our model takes with regards to the efficiency curve and the saturation point in our model which we will look to address as clearly as possible
We just want to make sure that there are no misunderstandings related to our economic model. We are fine with blizzard choosing not to use it, however want that to be the most well informed position possible, so that will be the focus of our rebuttal.
All in all, I and the rest of my team really appreciate the fact that Blizzard has decided to respond publically and we will work to keep a dialogue public between the our team and David Kim's.
One of the biggest things I want to ensure is clear in our message: we have no issues with the design decision to limit the number of total resources available on the map. We however, are not in the position to decide WHERE that line lies. While we may have found what might be a good starting point, that is a decision for blizzard to make.
The biggest thing is going to be showing how proper compromise between the two models is best.
Again guys remember to STAY POSITIVE!
As soon as we become emotional and blathering we won't get anywhere and nothing will get done.
On April 22 2015 05:12 KrazyTrumpet wrote: The hard cap is still 24, the efficiency just starts to drop after 8 harvesters, and then more severely at 16. With this proposed income, you still mine more per minute on base with with 24 workers vs 16. It's just much less efficient than HotS model when you break the worker pairing.
The reasoning behind doing it this way is to encourage players to take more bases if they really want to take advantage of more workers.
Thank you for clarification. I was worried it is not the case, since each mineral patch is already very busy with 2 workers, on average, trying to mine from it.
I will probably do my own testing when I have time to convince myself even further
The only reason we dropped it to 2 trips instead of 3 was because 3 trips is a bit punishing when losing workers and pulling and its too extreme we think for consideration (though it is good!)
It is also really really high income compared to 2 trip which is slightly less high which should be less difficult or as jarring a balance issue in early days.
Same but different was the goal in our suggestion.
Is there a more active place to find people wanting to play this mod? Double Harvest group seems kind of quiet on both NA and EU but maybe it's just a bad time of day? (late for EU, early for NA)
On April 12 2015 06:10 ZeromuS wrote: We found that similar to the Double Mining model, the mining curve may have been too high, and the return of 15 minerals instead of 5 may be too punishing due to the potentially high number of lost minerals on worker death in scenarios of harassment.
On April 22 2015 05:38 ZeromuS wrote: The only reason we dropped it to 2 trips instead of 3 was because 3 trips is a bit punishing when losing workers and pulling and its too extreme we think for consideration (though it is good!) It is also really really high income compared to 2 trip which is slightly less high which should be less difficult or as jarring a balance issue in early days.
I would like to point out that original DH set the single harvest of 3 minerals instead of 5. Thus, tripling it set it to 9 per round. If you assumed 5 - making it total of 15, as you state in the first post, makes it really huge. But 9, it actually puts it below your round trip of 10. Losing workers and early game should not be affected that much.
On April 12 2015 06:10 ZeromuS wrote: We found that similar to the Double Mining model, the mining curve may have been too high, and the return of 15 minerals instead of 5 may be too punishing due to the potentially high number of lost minerals on worker death in scenarios of harassment.
On April 22 2015 05:38 ZeromuS wrote: The only reason we dropped it to 2 trips instead of 3 was because 3 trips is a bit punishing when losing workers and pulling and its too extreme we think for consideration (though it is good!) It is also really really high income compared to 2 trip which is slightly less high which should be less difficult or as jarring a balance issue in early days.
I would like to point out that original DH set the single harvest of 3 minerals instead of 5. Thus, tripling it set it to 9 per round. If you assumed 5 - making it total of 15, as you state in the first post, makes it really huge. But 9, it actually puts it below your round trip of 10. Losing workers and early game should not be affected that much.
I'd be interested in triple harvest 9,12,15 to see how that compares to double.
On April 12 2015 06:10 ZeromuS wrote: We found that similar to the Double Mining model, the mining curve may have been too high, and the return of 15 minerals instead of 5 may be too punishing due to the potentially high number of lost minerals on worker death in scenarios of harassment.
On April 22 2015 05:38 ZeromuS wrote: The only reason we dropped it to 2 trips instead of 3 was because 3 trips is a bit punishing when losing workers and pulling and its too extreme we think for consideration (though it is good!) It is also really really high income compared to 2 trip which is slightly less high which should be less difficult or as jarring a balance issue in early days.
I would like to point out that original DH set the single harvest of 3 minerals instead of 5. Thus, tripling it set it to 9 per round. If you assumed 5 - making it total of 15, as you state in the first post, makes it really huge. But 9, it actually puts it below your round trip of 10. Losing workers and early game should not be affected that much.
I'd be interested in triple harvest 9,12,15 to see how that compares to double.
On April 22 2015 06:02 ZeromuS wrote: extension mods dont always get a ton of players sadly and yeah quiet time also exam time for a lot of students in NA
Oh shit, I completely forgot about this haha
On April 22 2015 06:35 meenamjah wrote: hmm.. too bad they couldn't just use an already-established-amazing economic model from a similar game that they own.
They can't because SC2 isn't Brood War. It shouldn't try to be BW in every aspect. There are things to learn from and take away from BW, but it's absolutely possible to still be its own game.
On April 12 2015 06:10 ZeromuS wrote: We found that similar to the Double Mining model, the mining curve may have been too high, and the return of 15 minerals instead of 5 may be too punishing due to the potentially high number of lost minerals on worker death in scenarios of harassment.
On April 22 2015 05:38 ZeromuS wrote: The only reason we dropped it to 2 trips instead of 3 was because 3 trips is a bit punishing when losing workers and pulling and its too extreme we think for consideration (though it is good!) It is also really really high income compared to 2 trip which is slightly less high which should be less difficult or as jarring a balance issue in early days.
I would like to point out that original DH set the single harvest of 3 minerals instead of 5. Thus, tripling it set it to 9 per round. If you assumed 5 - making it total of 15, as you state in the first post, makes it really huge. But 9, it actually puts it below your round trip of 10. Losing workers and early game should not be affected that much.
I'd be interested in triple harvest 9,12,15 to see how that compares to double.
I will perform the very same tests with the harvesting strategy here and include it in the graphs, so that we can compare directly, apples-to-apples.
will be good to see the graphs. 3 rounds for 9 minerals is still a very long trip and not sure if its ideal for blizz, but worth seeing the graphs for excited for that
I think it may be easier for players to understand if the worker mined in short, 1-mineral increments up to the number of minerals per trip. So you can click on a node and see the number of minerals tick down as the worker mines.
I have no idea how that would affect gameplay, but it makes more intuitive sense to me than mining in 3 or 5 mineral increments.
Foilist, that sounds like a good idea. You could also have an effect such as the mineral load getting brighter the more of the load they have.
I think they wanted it in bunches in order to make there be some sort of penalty for pulling your workers to defend early on. If you can put them right back on the mineral line then you haven't lost anything.
I was going to suggest something similar in response to this, I haven't read through the whole thread so apologies if it has already been suggested.
When a worker takes twice as long to complete their harvesting action, stopping this action prematurely results in a huge hit to the economy. Instead of missing out on 5 minerals from interrupting a 2.7 second harvest cycle in the current economic model a player who pulls their workers will lose 10 minerals from interrupting a 5.4 second harvest cycle.
Though rather than 1 mineral increments I was going to suggest 5 or maybe 2, this would help reduce the impact of pulling workers (though slightly increase the loss of losing workers if you count the minerals lost) without completely nullifying it.
On April 21 2015 18:08 MarlieChurphy wrote: This thread is so long. Is there a TL;DR of op and a TL;DR of comments?
From my skimming I just read that op wants workers to gather 10 per trip and not allow a perfect mining fit of 2 workers (so making them mine longer?). I don't really know.
Tbh, BW economy was fine. Why can't they just replicate that?
IIRC, blizzard's logic for making it 5 per trip was to "even it out, because 8 was just weird." which is completely irrelevant, because often times in a game you cancel stuff or whatever and it becomes uneven anyway.
That's more or less correct. Basically, the fact that workers pair on mineral nodes allows a perfect 2:1 ratio, meaning that the first 16 workers per base mine at 100% efficiency. By the time you get to 3 bases, all bases are running on perfect efficiency with little room left for army, meaning that on 3 bases (or 24 nodes), you have no incentive to expand other than extra gas income.
In a suggested model, we can solve this by dropping the efficiency below 2:1 (even 1.99:1 is an improvement). This means that the first 8 workers will have 100% efficiency, meaning that you need to spread out to 4-5 bases in order to get the same efficient income as you would in HotS. This has a lot of the same effects of the LotV economy without punishing certain styles and creating a feeling of mineral starvation.
Has it addressed anything about the gas/geyser issue also?
It cost way more supply than it did in BW to run a base because there are now 2 geysers running at half efficiency instead of 1 running at double.
Imho, the idealogy behind having 2 geysers is great from a strategic decision making and recon info standpoint, but I think maybe a fully saturated geyser should be dropped to 2 or maybe 2.5 workers.
Once you get to 3 and 4 bases, thats anywhere from 6-8 workers per base = 24-32 supply just gathering gas, while minerals is only 16-24 workers per base, which is pretty huge. And then take into consideration that zerg needs to have 2 extra supply at each base for a queen (who is mainly being used for economy), it's way too expensive to run an economy as far as supply goes.
Which is why terran with enough time has the ultimate best economy macro mechanic as they could mass CC (which double as supply and defense/walls and remove the need for the majority of your supply via MULE).
buffing the return rate speed or the return trip income+nerfing the amount of time a worker stays inside the geyser, could free up 12-16 supply alone. Which is enough to support another base, or make more end game army. And it's a pretty simple fix.
On April 22 2015 15:05 Myrddraal wrote: I was going to suggest something similar in response to this, I haven't read through the whole thread so apologies if it has already been suggested.
When a worker takes twice as long to complete their harvesting action, stopping this action prematurely results in a huge hit to the economy. Instead of missing out on 5 minerals from interrupting a 2.7 second harvest cycle in the current economic model a player who pulls their workers will lose 10 minerals from interrupting a 5.4 second harvest cycle.
Though rather than 1 mineral increments I was going to suggest 5 or maybe 2, this would help reduce the impact of pulling workers (though slightly increase the loss of losing workers if you count the minerals lost) without completely nullifying it.
The model they suggested uses 5 mineral increments. That's why it's called double harvest - it harvests in 2 mineral bunches. First, 5 minerals, then another 5.
On April 22 2015 15:05 Myrddraal wrote: I was going to suggest something similar in response to this, I haven't read through the whole thread so apologies if it has already been suggested.
When a worker takes twice as long to complete their harvesting action, stopping this action prematurely results in a huge hit to the economy. Instead of missing out on 5 minerals from interrupting a 2.7 second harvest cycle in the current economic model a player who pulls their workers will lose 10 minerals from interrupting a 5.4 second harvest cycle.
Though rather than 1 mineral increments I was going to suggest 5 or maybe 2, this would help reduce the impact of pulling workers (though slightly increase the loss of losing workers if you count the minerals lost) without completely nullifying it.
The model they suggested uses 5 mineral increments. That's why it's called double harvest - it harvests in 2 mineral bunches. First, 5 minerals, then another 5.
Well, it could be another variable for Blizzard to change in case they wanted the income curve to match some exact description. For instance, suppose that 9-DH is considered ideal, but Blizzard does not want to deal with 4.5m/harvest, they could change the mining to three times 3m/harvest by changing harvesting time and so on while not affecting total time spent before returning cargo per worker. This way there is a middle-ground between 8 & 10 without potential annoying issues.
I also think that double harvest is slightly unintuitive (although personally I don't care), and that if you harvest 4-5 times per trip it might seem more obvious because you could have two graphics: one of having some minerals and one of having max minerals, like an updated version of lumber mining in WC3 where every whack of the axe would net you another 1 lumber in the worker's personal cargo.
On April 22 2015 15:05 Myrddraal wrote: I was going to suggest something similar in response to this, I haven't read through the whole thread so apologies if it has already been suggested.
When a worker takes twice as long to complete their harvesting action, stopping this action prematurely results in a huge hit to the economy. Instead of missing out on 5 minerals from interrupting a 2.7 second harvest cycle in the current economic model a player who pulls their workers will lose 10 minerals from interrupting a 5.4 second harvest cycle.
Though rather than 1 mineral increments I was going to suggest 5 or maybe 2, this would help reduce the impact of pulling workers (though slightly increase the loss of losing workers if you count the minerals lost) without completely nullifying it.
The model they suggested uses 5 mineral increments. That's why it's called double harvest - it harvests in 2 mineral bunches. First, 5 minerals, then another 5.
Ah okay I didn't realise that, I just assumed it was double harvest because it was double the previous amount, thanks for clearing that up.
What is the point in keeping double harvest at 10 minerals per trip if it gives you an increase in about 35% from standard income for the early levels. Would it not just be better to have 8 per trip so that the income per trip remains remains more in line with the income per worker levels from WoL or HotS? Seems easier to implement for blizzard at least
On April 22 2015 23:20 eg9 wrote: What is the point in keeping double harvest at 10 minerals per trip if it gives you an increase in about 35% from standard income for the early levels. Would it not just be better to have 8 per trip so that the income per trip remains remains more in line with the income per worker levels from WoL or HotS? Seems easier to implement for blizzard at least
The problem is that DH2x5 while has increased income early game, it matches the Standard when saturating. If you go DH2x4, you match the Standard early game but fall about 20-30% below standard when saturating.
Given that Blizzard looks for ways to speed up early game (e.g. by giving 12 starting workers), DH2x5 is given more attention.
On April 22 2015 15:05 Myrddraal wrote: I was going to suggest something similar in response to this, I haven't read through the whole thread so apologies if it has already been suggested.
When a worker takes twice as long to complete their harvesting action, stopping this action prematurely results in a huge hit to the economy. Instead of missing out on 5 minerals from interrupting a 2.7 second harvest cycle in the current economic model a player who pulls their workers will lose 10 minerals from interrupting a 5.4 second harvest cycle.
Though rather than 1 mineral increments I was going to suggest 5 or maybe 2, this would help reduce the impact of pulling workers (though slightly increase the loss of losing workers if you count the minerals lost) without completely nullifying it.
The model they suggested uses 5 mineral increments. That's why it's called double harvest - it harvests in 2 mineral bunches. First, 5 minerals, then another 5.
Well, it could be another variable for Blizzard to change in case they wanted the income curve to match some exact description. For instance, suppose that 9-DH is considered ideal, but Blizzard does not want to deal with 4.5m/harvest, they could change the mining to three times 3m/harvest by changing harvesting time and so on while not affecting total time spent before returning cargo per worker. This way there is a middle-ground between 8 & 10 without potential annoying issues.
I also think that double harvest is slightly unintuitive (although personally I don't care), and that if you harvest 4-5 times per trip it might seem more obvious because you could have two graphics: one of having some minerals and one of having max minerals, like an updated version of lumber mining in WC3 where every whack of the axe would net you another 1 lumber in the worker's personal cargo.
Honestly, I think visual representation of the basketted minerals is not going to be too difficult to do.
Committed players will learn what the little indicator means and super casual players just simply won't care.
You can see how the easy to understand for committed players and simple enough for casuals if they put in the time to figure it out approach in all the popular games like LoL/DotA/CSGO etc
On April 22 2015 23:20 eg9 wrote: What is the point in keeping double harvest at 10 minerals per trip if it gives you an increase in about 35% from standard income for the early levels. Would it not just be better to have 8 per trip so that the income per trip remains remains more in line with the income per worker levels from WoL or HotS? Seems easier to implement for blizzard at least
The problem is that DH2x5 while has increased income early game, it matches the Standard when saturating. If you go DH2x4, you match the Standard early game but fall about 20-30% below standard when saturating.
Given that Blizzard looks for ways to speed up early game (e.g. by giving 12 starting workers), DH2x5 is given more attention.
On April 23 2015 02:41 Apoteosis wrote: ¿What is the cost of losing workers in that model? I mean, harassement in DH models. ¿It is more or less efective than in the Hots or Lotv models?
I think that is an important question! I wonder myself... DH 2x5 has a bit higher income in general, so any worker loss hurts more in absolute numbers. Which means more absolute difference in army sizes afterwards. But on the other hand, if you lose half of your workers and you end up having 8 of them to your opponent having 16, his income will be less than double of yours.
I think in the end we need more empirical data (more played games) to see how much harassment hurts.
I just thought of an alternate idea while watching ZeromuS on TLG. Would it make any sense to keep the same amount of resources on the map as in HotS, but have half the mineral patches have half the minerals and half of them have 1.5x as much? So the base takes longer to mine out than in HotS, but for 2/3 of the time the income is lower. It would mean it's still possible to turtle and not run out of money, but expanding would give you a much higher rate of income.
On April 23 2015 07:29 klipik12 wrote: I just thought of an alternate idea while watching ZeromuS on TLG. Would it make any sense to keep the same amount of resources on the map as in HotS, but have half the mineral patches have half the minerals and half of them have 1.5x as much? So the base takes longer to mine out than in HotS, but for 2/3 of the time the income is lower. It would mean it's still possible to turtle and not run out of money, but expanding would give you a much higher rate of income.
At its core we want to break the worker pair.
simply increasing or reducing mineral patch values is not enough. And consistency of income should be retained, in our opinion. It helps planning for builds and less skilled players to not worry as much about half patches or the such.
On April 23 2015 07:29 klipik12 wrote: I just thought of an alternate idea while watching ZeromuS on TLG. Would it make any sense to keep the same amount of resources on the map as in HotS, but have half the mineral patches have half the minerals and half of them have 1.5x as much? So the base takes longer to mine out than in HotS, but for 2/3 of the time the income is lower. It would mean it's still possible to turtle and not run out of money, but expanding would give you a much higher rate of income.
At its core we want to break the worker pair.
simply increasing or reducing mineral patch values is not enough. And consistency of income should be retained, in our opinion. It helps planning for builds and less skilled players to not worry as much about half patches or the such.
OK! Maybe I'm just retarded so excuse my ignorance if this is the case BUT, in your economic model and even the LoTV economy model what comeback mechanics exist? In HoTS it seems like even if I fuck up an attack, as long as it wasn't a complete and total fuck up, I can fight my way back into the game. But if I fall behind in LoTV and in your proposed economic model, it seems like a player of equal skill will always just pull me apart or deny my extra bases until I run out of money.
Sometimes you shouldn't have ways to fight back into the game. However, in this case you are still able to more fully saturate your mineral lines, harass their mineral lines, and go for some sort of tech and army timing. If you're too far behind to do any of those, you should probably accept that you've lost.
I notice as a Terran, when you shift cue workers in the mineral line to build new buildings. Some of the SCVs will not execute the command. (I think it is due to the SCV is stuck at the mining command?) Is this a mechanic problem that can be solved?
On April 25 2015 14:16 EmNGiantNome wrote: OK! Maybe I'm just retarded so excuse my ignorance if this is the case BUT, in your economic model and even the LoTV economy model what comeback mechanics exist? In HoTS it seems like even if I fuck up an attack, as long as it wasn't a complete and total fuck up, I can fight my way back into the game. But if I fall behind in LoTV and in your proposed economic model, it seems like a player of equal skill will always just pull me apart or deny my extra bases until I run out of money.
If you do a super dedicated attack and fail yes you are really behind, but in LotV its far more pronounced because you lose the half patches potentially.
Which is fine to a certain degree.
But in ours there remains an equilibrium of damage where you still have a consistent mineral income so you might be able to recover, but in either scenario failing an all in attack is still worse than in HotS.
On April 25 2015 23:00 bhfberserk wrote: I notice as a Terran, when you shift cue workers in the mineral line to build new buildings. Some of the SCVs will not execute the command. (I think it is due to the SCV is stuck at the mining command?) Is this a mechanic problem that can be solved?
Interesting, I'll see if I can reproduce it but send me the replay if you havent already
On April 25 2015 23:00 bhfberserk wrote: I notice as a Terran, when you shift cue workers in the mineral line to build new buildings. Some of the SCVs will not execute the command. (I think it is due to the SCV is stuck at the mining command?) Is this a mechanic problem that can be solved?
It might be the case. When the worker finishes 1-st or 2-nd harvest, the trigger orders the worker to harvest again from the same patch, discarding whatever previous order was given (which usually is "return cargo" by the game engine). It could be the case, that the code is missing a check for a player-induced queued order.
On April 25 2015 14:16 EmNGiantNome wrote: OK! Maybe I'm just retarded so excuse my ignorance if this is the case BUT, in your economic model and even the LoTV economy model what comeback mechanics exist? In HoTS it seems like even if I fuck up an attack, as long as it wasn't a complete and total fuck up, I can fight my way back into the game. But if I fall behind in LoTV and in your proposed economic model, it seems like a player of equal skill will always just pull me apart or deny my extra bases until I run out of money.
If you do a super dedicated attack and fail yes you are really behind, but in LotV its far more pronounced because you lose the half patches potentially.
Which is fine to a certain degree.
But in ours there remains an equilibrium of damage where you still have a consistent mineral income so you might be able to recover, but in either scenario failing an all in attack is still worse than in HotS.
In my mind, this can only be good. If dedicated attacks are more all-in, you are encouraged to play the economy-focused "macro" game rather than rely on timing attacks. This doesn't mean that timing attacks still won't have their place; but shifting the game towards a focused approach on expanding and base management is a definite plus in my opinion.
On April 25 2015 14:16 EmNGiantNome wrote: OK! Maybe I'm just retarded so excuse my ignorance if this is the case BUT, in your economic model and even the LoTV economy model what comeback mechanics exist? In HoTS it seems like even if I fuck up an attack, as long as it wasn't a complete and total fuck up, I can fight my way back into the game. But if I fall behind in LoTV and in your proposed economic model, it seems like a player of equal skill will always just pull me apart or deny my extra bases until I run out of money.
If you do a super dedicated attack and fail yes you are really behind, but in LotV its far more pronounced because you lose the half patches potentially.
Which is fine to a certain degree.
But in ours there remains an equilibrium of damage where you still have a consistent mineral income so you might be able to recover, but in either scenario failing an all in attack is still worse than in HotS.
In my mind, this can only be good. If dedicated attacks are more all-in, you are encouraged to play the economy-focused "macro" game rather than rely on timing attacks. This doesn't mean that timing attacks still won't have their place; but shifting the game towards a focused approach on expanding and base management is a definite plus in my opinion.
I used to think so as well, however recently I've seen comebacks in an entirely new light. Comebacks in most games, outside of turtle swarmhost which is dead now anyway, are incredibly exciting. SC2 already sort of suffers from the issue of somewhat educated spectators knowing the outcome of a game long before the game is actually over. However in HoTS there are occasions where comebacks are/were possible, i.e. parting vs life on deadwing, polt vs hydra in wcs, etc. So while the game might be more skill based with the new and proposed economy it will kill off some of the excitement imo.
On April 25 2015 14:16 EmNGiantNome wrote: OK! Maybe I'm just retarded so excuse my ignorance if this is the case BUT, in your economic model and even the LoTV economy model what comeback mechanics exist? In HoTS it seems like even if I fuck up an attack, as long as it wasn't a complete and total fuck up, I can fight my way back into the game. But if I fall behind in LoTV and in your proposed economic model, it seems like a player of equal skill will always just pull me apart or deny my extra bases until I run out of money.
If you do a super dedicated attack and fail yes you are really behind, but in LotV its far more pronounced because you lose the half patches potentially.
Which is fine to a certain degree.
But in ours there remains an equilibrium of damage where you still have a consistent mineral income so you might be able to recover, but in either scenario failing an all in attack is still worse than in HotS.
In my mind, this can only be good. If dedicated attacks are more all-in, you are encouraged to play the economy-focused "macro" game rather than rely on timing attacks. This doesn't mean that timing attacks still won't have their place; but shifting the game towards a focused approach on expanding and base management is a definite plus in my opinion.
I used to think so as well, however recently I've seen comebacks in an entirely new light. Comebacks in most games, outside of turtle swarmhost which is dead now anyway, are incredibly exciting. SC2 already sort of suffers from the issue of somewhat educated spectators knowing the outcome of a game long before the game is actually over. However in HoTS there are occasions where comebacks are/were possible, i.e. parting vs life on deadwing, polt vs hydra in wcs, etc. So while the game might be more skill based with the new and proposed economy it will kill off some of the excitement imo.
He isn't saying comebacks don't work.
He is saying when you do an all in and fail it miserably, then its not so much a comeback for them. Its more a comeback if the other guy survives it
On April 25 2015 23:00 bhfberserk wrote: I notice as a Terran, when you shift cue workers in the mineral line to build new buildings. Some of the SCVs will not execute the command. (I think it is due to the SCV is stuck at the mining command?) Is this a mechanic problem that can be solved?
It might be the case. When the worker finishes 1-st or 2-nd harvest, the trigger orders the worker to harvest again from the same patch, discarding whatever previous order was given (which usually is "return cargo" by the game engine). It could be the case, that the code is missing a check for a player-induced queued order.
This was one of my initial concerns however when I tested it in the DH mod scvs seemed to behave "normally"... I recommend trying it out again.
On April 25 2015 14:16 EmNGiantNome wrote: OK! Maybe I'm just retarded so excuse my ignorance if this is the case BUT, in your economic model and even the LoTV economy model what comeback mechanics exist? In HoTS it seems like even if I fuck up an attack, as long as it wasn't a complete and total fuck up, I can fight my way back into the game. But if I fall behind in LoTV and in your proposed economic model, it seems like a player of equal skill will always just pull me apart or deny my extra bases until I run out of money.
If you do a super dedicated attack and fail yes you are really behind, but in LotV its far more pronounced because you lose the half patches potentially.
Which is fine to a certain degree.
But in ours there remains an equilibrium of damage where you still have a consistent mineral income so you might be able to recover, but in either scenario failing an all in attack is still worse than in HotS.
In my mind, this can only be good. If dedicated attacks are more all-in, you are encouraged to play the economy-focused "macro" game rather than rely on timing attacks. This doesn't mean that timing attacks still won't have their place; but shifting the game towards a focused approach on expanding and base management is a definite plus in my opinion.
I used to think so as well, however recently I've seen comebacks in an entirely new light. Comebacks in most games, outside of turtle swarmhost which is dead now anyway, are incredibly exciting. SC2 already sort of suffers from the issue of somewhat educated spectators knowing the outcome of a game long before the game is actually over. However in HoTS there are occasions where comebacks are/were possible, i.e. parting vs life on deadwing, polt vs hydra in wcs, etc. So while the game might be more skill based with the new and proposed economy it will kill off some of the excitement imo.
What kills the possibility of back-and-forth games is hyper-development; which is why, out of all the DH models proposed, only DH8 is interesting.
Any economy which doesn't give you a fixed income is automatically snowballing. It's just part of the genre and you have to design around it and add ways to still come back into the game. For instance, in Warcraft 3 you had upkeep which functioned as a tax to give players with higher supply lower income. In BW you had main bases which would have more mineral patches than other bases, this effectively lowered the advantage you could get from being a base up. Similarly you would have mineral-only bases that would only give you a limited boost in income because gas mining wasn't affected.
Of course Blizzard doesn't want to have half-bases because that would be confusing, so it's not an option. But anyway, there are a thousand-and-one mechanics in the game which affect on comeback potential, so this relation by itself should not invalidate DH. Case in point, DH is closer to BW economy yet that game allowed for comebacks.
On April 25 2015 14:16 EmNGiantNome wrote: OK! Maybe I'm just retarded so excuse my ignorance if this is the case BUT, in your economic model and even the LoTV economy model what comeback mechanics exist? In HoTS it seems like even if I fuck up an attack, as long as it wasn't a complete and total fuck up, I can fight my way back into the game. But if I fall behind in LoTV and in your proposed economic model, it seems like a player of equal skill will always just pull me apart or deny my extra bases until I run out of money.
If you do a super dedicated attack and fail yes you are really behind, but in LotV its far more pronounced because you lose the half patches potentially.
Which is fine to a certain degree.
But in ours there remains an equilibrium of damage where you still have a consistent mineral income so you might be able to recover, but in either scenario failing an all in attack is still worse than in HotS.
In my mind, this can only be good. If dedicated attacks are more all-in, you are encouraged to play the economy-focused "macro" game rather than rely on timing attacks. This doesn't mean that timing attacks still won't have their place; but shifting the game towards a focused approach on expanding and base management is a definite plus in my opinion.
I used to think so as well, however recently I've seen comebacks in an entirely new light. Comebacks in most games, outside of turtle swarmhost which is dead now anyway, are incredibly exciting. SC2 already sort of suffers from the issue of somewhat educated spectators knowing the outcome of a game long before the game is actually over. However in HoTS there are occasions where comebacks are/were possible, i.e. parting vs life on deadwing, polt vs hydra in wcs, etc. So while the game might be more skill based with the new and proposed economy it will kill off some of the excitement imo.
What kills the possibility of back-and-forth games is hyper-development; which is why, out of all the DH models proposed, only DH8 is interesting.
DH 8 requires a rework of gas mining in addition to mineral mining. It is a really shallow curve compared to standard hots around which gas is balanced and proof of concept dh9 is good enough IMO to show blizz that yes, you can approach the economy by making the worker ratio closer to 1:1 for the most optimal income from a theory perspective.
Again I dont expect blizzard to import DH anything directly, I just hope they can see the benefits to unlocking the base cap through worker pairing and diminishing returns occurring earlier in the worker count per base.
On April 26 2015 22:54 Barrin wrote: In finances, the word for this "snowballing" is known as "compound interest", and it has been said to be the most powerful force in the world. It explains why such small differences in income rate seems so pronounced as the game goes on (until peak economy).
If you haven't learned about compound interest yet, I highly suggest you go do that now for your own personal sake. Shouldn't take long.
different interest rates = different income rates making an investment/deposit = making workers/town halls interest in action = workers mining withdrawing = making production/tech annual return on investment = return on investment by the minute
The more the initial difference between mining rates, the greater the difference will grow in the same amount of time, until peak economy. Risk of expanding and threat of attack aside, you can literally make money on your money, and then make money on the money that you made with your money, etc.
This is true, but besides the point.
I want to apologize if I misused terminology. I use snowballing in the sense of a small advantage naturally growing into a large, even decisive advantage. A snowflock runs down the hill to gather snow, this coalesces into a snowball of massive size compared to its humble beginnings seemingly without any special effort. Relating this to game design you could state that your advantage naturally starts to grow when both players do nothing.
The question is how you define advantage, and this depends on the point system of the game. If you play Starcraft and you're 12 to 10 workers ahead, this might be a thirty second or 20% in-game advantage. The economy grows exponentially and some minutes later you do another tally and find you're 60 to 50 workers ahead. Your worker advantage has grown, from 2 to 10, but your overall advantage is still 20% or thirty game seconds. Suppose the economy would grow linearly, your advantage might be 52 to 50 workers. Thirty seconds ahead but your advantage has shrunk from 20% to 4%.
Using this as a case example we can state that by itself both an exponentially and a linearly growing economy do not match with my definition of snowballing as your advantage (however defined) stays constant or decreases. As an aside, probably the issue is with my sloppy use of terminology because the snowballing metaphor is easy to associate with the concept of exponential growth.
I was thinking of the notion of "slippery slope" as defined by Sirlin, which more accurately reflects the influence of a non-fixed economy on the comeback potential inherent in the game. A quotation:
If a game has slippery slope, it means that falling behind causes you to fall even further behind. ... StarCraft also has slippery slope. When you lose a unit, you are penalized doubly. First, you are closer to losing (having no units at all is so crippling as to be virtually the same as the actual loss condition of losing all your buildings). Second, you are less able to attack and defend because the unit you lost was not just part of a score, but also part of the actual gameplay of attacking and defending.
StarCraft has even more severe slippery slope when it comes to the game’s economy. Imagine that your opponent rushes you (sends an early attack to your base) and you fend it off. Let’s say you each lost about the same value of units in the exchange, except that you also lost one worker unit. In a different type of game, this might equate to being one “point” behind. But in StarCraft, that can be a crippling loss because gathering minerals is nearly exponential. Your opponent is ahead of you in the resource curve, increasing their earnings faster than you are. You’ve fallen down a very slippery slope here, where an early disadvantage becomes more magnified as the game goes on.
In basketball, the score is completely separate from the gameplay. Your ability to score points doesn’t depend at all on what the current score is. You could be ahead by 20 points or behind by 20 points and have the same chances of scoring more points. But in StarCraft (and Chess), the score is bound up with the gameplay. Losing units pushes you closer to loss AND makes it harder to fight back.
I think Sirlin fell into the same trap as you did, by the way, since his economy example also did not illustrate how income advantage is growing faster. But it's where I got the definition from, in any case.
More to the point, and let's use the same example as earlier, if you have a 20% income advantage in SC2 and you see income as your main tool to affect the outcome of the game, then if you try to gain a more pronounced advantage you'll actually have better odds. If you throw a coin the outcome of which would increase or decrease your advantage, it would be 55:45 in your favor. Growing your economy is a neutral action if you're growing it at the same relative speed as your opponent, regardless of whether it's exponential growth or not. But the income disparity actually allows you to speed up your build and this does allow you to make gains. This would happen with both exponential growth and in some cases with linear growth, it's just that in the latter there is a competing effect that reduces your advantage and therefore you can no longer categorically state there is a slippery slope effect. With a fixed economy none of these effects exist.
A concrete example of this: you're 2 workers ahead and eventually some extra army units. You decide to take faster third base and start your upgrades earlier, while your opponent has to play safe due to lower army supply and starts tech and economy later. His build, which used to be thirty seconds behind is now a minute behind and victory is assured.
On April 26 2015 23:06 Barrin wrote: Almost exactly 20%. Just 20%.
You are actually right, it is 20% with very small error Didn't check the actual number when I was writing that, just picked it from memory...
-----
Grumbels, I think I have to agree with you. If I am at 11 workers and my opponent has 12, then I am 17 seconds behind (the time to build 12th worker). If we both play ideally from that point, macroing, I will remain 17 seconds behind.
In the long turn it will mean I am about 850 resources behind (assuming income of 3000 minerals & gas per minute in the mid-late game). But that disparity is not going to grow further due to supply cap and realistic limit on the amount of workers that you want to have.
I still like smaller skirmishes. I love seeing a small force fight a small force with micro on both sides. Hellions and reapers vs queens lings where you can see micro, kiting, positioning, zoning and all these decisions where the difference getting a unit kill vs keeping it alive can make a big difference.
I really feel now we are just rushing to 200/200 armies so fast. It's not that I want 15 minutes of sim city before a battle. But I really would love to see a way of slowing the speed at which the army just becomes a big hard to control ball.
On April 27 2015 02:27 MrMatt wrote: I still like smaller skirmishes. I love seeing a small force fight a small force with micro on both sides. Hellions and reapers vs queens lings where you can see micro, kiting, positioning, zoning and all these decisions where the difference getting a unit kill vs keeping it alive can make a big difference.
I really feel now we are just rushing to 200/200 armies so fast. It's not that I want 15 minutes of sim city before a battle. But I really would love to see a way of slowing the speed at which the army just becomes a big hard to control ball.
Oh, I agree with you on that as well! But that is not what DH tries to address; at least not directly. I would welcome much lower overall income rate.... But I am sure there are many who would disagree with me as well.
So after watching the Scarlett vs Parting showmatch, I can't say I'm super impressed with the new model. Maybe it's just rooted in the fact that there's a significant skill difference between those two players, but it seems like there was just no reason to take the extra risk and go up to more bases than you needed (3-4). The extra income you got just didn't justify the extra risk of taking more bases, and it was too easy to spread the other player thin trying to defend all their bases while sitting back on your standard 3. Parting played perfectly standard 3 base, full saturated macro play and had more than enough resources to deal with Scarlett's 4-5 base economy. Again, this could just be the players, but from the looks of things there was very little difference between what would have happened under the old economy and what happened in the proposed one. A big part of this could be the maps too. It seems you'd need to complete redesign maps to make them easier to take past 3 bases, or else a 4th is just almost never worth it even if you get more money per worker.
On April 27 2015 12:57 SetGuitarsToKill wrote: So after watching the Scarlett vs Parting showmatch, I can't say I'm super impressed with the new model. Maybe it's just rooted in the fact that there's a significant skill difference between those two players, but it seems like there was just no reason to take the extra risk and go up to more bases than you needed (3-4). The extra income you got just didn't justify the extra risk of taking more bases, and it was too easy to spread the other player thin trying to defend all their bases while sitting back on your standard 3. Parting played perfectly standard 3 base, full saturated macro play and had more than enough resources to deal with Scarlett's 4-5 base economy. Again, this could just be the players, but from the looks of things there was very little difference between what would have happened under the old economy and what happened in the proposed one. A big part of this could be the maps too. It seems you'd need to complete redesign maps to make them easier to take past 3 bases, or else a 4th is just almost never worth it even if you get more money per worker.
Definitely felt the same. It just didn't seem to make a big difference at all. Zerg already goes up to a 4th base against a 3 base protoss and scarlett had serious trouble taking a 5th.
I think defenders advantage is just too weak in SC2 for anybody to take proper advantage of this model, particularly with Parting's style in PvZ.
I'd still be in favour of blizzard trying this out in LotV for a couple of weeks at some point to get a larger data set. But I honestly don't see it affecting very much without a lot of other large changes.
Looking forward to matches. Can't say much about Scarlett vs Parting if I didn't see it I would like to point out however, that DH9 - or any other DH for that matter - tries to be a small change just to encourage expanding. It is not a "must have" to force expanding-style gameplay. It is not meant to be a mod that would throw everything upside down. 3-base play should remain viable.
Is DH9 a too small change? That is hard to judge; we need more games. Much more. Plus also the fact, that players will need time to adapt to the new economy. As with any other balance change, effects are not always immediately visible.
If this were to be further developed, I'd like to try out the following changes:
Same mining time as DH9, but return 8 minerals instead. (Lower income = slower time to max out since I think it's still too fast right now. Adjust gas mining rates to compensate.)
10-12 worker start. (I think the game would start a bit too slowly with 6 workers and DH8. Also would be more in line with Blizzards goals.)
High ground advantage mechanic. (Doesn't have to be RNG 1/2 miss chance, but some form of this would allow for 4+ bases to be taken more safely.)
After playing myself and watching PartinG vs Scarlett, I'm actually starting to get convinced that Blizzard is in the right and the community is not doing what it thinks it's doing.
If you think about it, Blizzard IS actually shaking things up way more than the DH thing with the LotV model: adding a sense of urgency in expanding, constant aggression moving at different locations on the map, battling for expands with way less resources... It doesn't really create strategy per se, but I'm not sure anything will at that point in SC2, but it's a change from HotS at least (in a good way as far as I'm concerned). What DH does is address a hypothetical case of one player being able to easily expand against a turtling opponent and being rewarded for doing so: it actually doesn't create either conflict or strategy, I'm guessing that in a stable metagame, there will always be some fixed way a matchup is economically played out and one race has to expand a fixed number of times (possibly more than the other). The game will be balanced around that and that's it, nothing indicates that this will create more interesting situations.
LotV's economy has its obvious flaws: tech timings and costs are outdated in the new 12-starting-worker game (this can obviously be fine-tuned), and the difference between full base and half mined out base is too steep. I would actually like to see bases where mineral patches have something like 100%, 100%, 100%, 90%, 80, 70, 60, 50% of their original load, for a smoother transition. But overall I think it's worth testing imo, about as much as DH is, and the community didn't give it even a chance because it hurt their feelings, essentially ("boohoo, I feel like I'm being punished instead of rewarded", bleh, what a drag). I'm glad they didn't give in immediately to a misguided elite's demand, and that more people get to test it out soon as beta invites are sent.
On April 27 2015 15:38 ZenithM wrote: But overall I think it's worth testing imo, about as much as DH is, and the community didn't give it even a chance because it hurt their feelings, essentially ("boohoo, I feel like I'm being punished instead of rewarded", bleh, what a drag). I'm glad they didn't give in immediately to a misguided elite's demand, and that more people get to test it out soon as beta invites are sent.
As the author of the original DH model, the only thing that "hurts my feelings" is that the DH idea was dismissed so quickly and based on false reasons. While the David Kim's statement was somewhat ambiguous, it boiled down to his observation that DH rewards expanding player too much. He claims that LotV is somewhere between DH and HotS.
But is it? The recent posts in this thread show that DH may actually be too weak, invalidating his statement even further!
On April 17 2015 19:12 maartendq wrote:If I am playing an RTS, I want to the focus to be on using my army in a strategic fashion, not on optimising my production because below master league the bigger army will usually win. Holding off cheese would be a lot more bearable (not to mention fun) if I didn't have to surrender control over my units every few seconds because I have to order my barracks to make another marine.
Go download the best RTT (real-time tactics) games ever, in my opinion, Myth/Myth II: Soulblighter:
If you mean the mining curve, it's slightly different and overall income ends up being a bit lower. There's charts around the econ threads but honestly i dont know where
If the Parting vs Scarlett showmatch demonstrated anything that can actually be taken away, it's that we need to test a slightly more extreme version of the mod in order to showcase Zeromus' intended economic changes. Even if it would have to be toned down before actual implementation, DH9 didn't lead to very visually different games, and when demonstrating a model that was formerly only theorized, it would behoove the creators to endorse some more ambitious testing changes. Don't get me wrong, some of the games were very exciting. The increased mineral income on both players' parts led to slightly more unit wealth. Scarlett held more bases than would be expected at certain times of the game and saturated some of them with slightly fewer workers than would be expected. It lead to exciting large-army trades almost constantly in a couple of the games, as they bounced between 160 and 190 supply for about 15 minutes of a 25 game. I'd label it a very above-average game, from an entertainment perspective. It's possible that DH9 was the singular reason for why a couple of the games were great, but hard to say. We need a more extreme version of your mod, in order to test this out.
For the sake of demonstrating your model's efficacy, a more aggressive efficiency decrease between 8 and 16 workers is needed. It will almost certainly not make the final game, but it's the only way to showcase an element of the game that usually remains behind the scenes.
On April 28 2015 05:55 Pontius Pirate wrote: If the Parting vs Scarlett showmatch demonstrated anything that can actually be taken away, it's that we need to test a slightly more extreme version of the mod in order to showcase Zeromus' intended economic changes. Even if it would have to be toned down before actual implementation, DH9 didn't lead to very visually different games, and when demonstrating a model that was formerly only theorized, it would behoove the creators to endorse some more ambitious testing changes. Don't get me wrong, some of the games were very exciting. The increased mineral income on both players' parts led to slightly more unit wealth. Scarlett held more bases than would be expected at certain times of the game and saturated some of them with slightly fewer workers than would be expected. It lead to exciting large-army trades almost constantly in a couple of the games, as they bounced between 160 and 190 supply for about 15 minutes of a 25 game. I'd label it a very above-average game, from an entertainment perspective. It's possible that DH9 was the singular reason for why a couple of the games were great, but hard to say. We need a more extreme version of your mod, in order to test this out.
For the sake of demonstrating your model's efficacy, a more aggressive efficiency decrease between 8 and 16 workers is needed. It will almost certainly not make the final game, but it's the only way to showcase an element of the game that usually remains behind the scenes.
These are good points. Once we get more data (soon, hopefully) we'll be able to make more conclusive statements about things. But I agree that the initial testing suggests that the changes aren't extreme enough.
On April 28 2015 08:30 WhaleOFaTALE1 wrote: How is the double harvest any different than the double mining model??
Pulling off workers to defend rushes etc. is less punishing in DH as opposed to DM. The mechanics of that are a tiny bit complicated, but it's explained in the OP.
Just as an abstract observation if we're discussing worker efficiency models and system designs:
If you want to decrease the efficiency of workers N > n, where N is # of workers and n is #of patches, you need to increase the proportion of the first worker's access to the patch's mining capacity UNLESS you implement a behavior that deprives workers of patch access (like bouncing, or intentionally inopportune DH cycling).
Every mineral patch regardless of distance has the same capacity, which is the max income available from it (when worked constantly, aka saturated). If we assume standard distances this is usually 3, with 2 being near 100%. If you make 1 worker >50% capacity, necessarily the 2nd worker will be inefficient. However this will lead to 2 workers saturating a patch leaving no incentive for more than 2n workers. This is bad.
Conclusion: Any mining system attempting to make 9-16 noticeably inefficient but retain gains for 17+ workers HAS to use a worker behavior that depresses patch access. In BW this was bouncing. In SC2 we've experimented with DH as well.
Recommendation: Tinkering with DH systems is required to find empirical solutions to get desired income/efficiency curves. Minor adjustments to timing parameters will have unexpected effects. (Review BlackLilium's thread.)
Zeromus, I've noticed Lalush has been stating his concerns lately that DH won't make any appreciable difference on SC2 as a whole, and that thinking in terms of when peak economy occurs is much more important. For example, in the case of Zerg against Turtle Mech, Lalush believes that the Mech player will max out before the Zerg player has a chance to capitalize on the increased income. As such, without reworking macro mechanics, DH will certainly fail.
From what I've seen, your choice of response to this is that DH is not meant to be exactly adopted into Void, but rather merely is there to showcase the benefits of worker pairing. However I don't think that's an adequate response. If Lalush is correct, then DH won't showcase the benefits of worker pairing because the point of peak economy still comes too quickly.
These concerns lead me to believe that, unless DH address macro mechanics (or alternatively raises supply cap but I don't think that's a good idea due to performance issues), then it won't do any good and this whole grand endeavor is for naught. This worried me a lot! If this is true, it seems wiser to rework macro mechanics on the DH mod before proceeding any further. I understand this may be seen as tampering with the game more further than Blizzard is willing to go, but if the DH mod can't showcase the benefits without macro mechanics rework, then it's all useless!
What do you think? I'm quite concerned about this; hopefully your response can restore my peace of mind.
On April 28 2015 12:41 AmicusVenti wrote: Zeromus, I've noticed Lalush has been stating his concerns lately that DH won't make any appreciable difference on SC2 as a whole, and that thinking in terms of when peak economy occurs is much more important. For example, in the case of Zerg against Turtle Mech, Lalush believes that the Mech player will max out before the Zerg player has a chance to capitalize on the increased income. As such, without reworking macro mechanics, DH will certainly fail.
From what I've seen, your choice of response to this is that DH is not meant to be exactly adopted into Void, but rather merely is there to showcase the benefits of worker pairing. However I don't think that's an adequate response. If Lalush is correct, then DH won't showcase the benefits of worker pairing because the point of peak economy still comes too quickly.
These concerns lead me to believe that, unless DH address macro mechanics (or alternatively raises supply cap but I don't think that's a good idea due to performance issues), then it won't do any good and this whole grand endeavor is for naught. This worried me a lot! If this is true, it seems wiser to rework macro mechanics on the DH mod before proceeding any further. I understand this may be seen as tampering with the game more further than Blizzard is willing to go, but if the DH mod can't showcase the benefits without macro mechanics rework, then it's all useless!
What do you think? I'm quite concerned about this; hopefully your response can restore my peace of mind.
Do you have a link to Lalushs comments? I think we need way more data than we have to make any conclusions in general though.
On April 28 2015 12:41 AmicusVenti wrote: Zeromus, I've noticed Lalush has been stating his concerns lately that DH won't make any appreciable difference on SC2 as a whole, and that thinking in terms of when peak economy occurs is much more important. For example, in the case of Zerg against Turtle Mech, Lalush believes that the Mech player will max out before the Zerg player has a chance to capitalize on the increased income. As such, without reworking macro mechanics, DH will certainly fail.
From what I've seen, your choice of response to this is that DH is not meant to be exactly adopted into Void, but rather merely is there to showcase the benefits of worker pairing. However I don't think that's an adequate response. If Lalush is correct, then DH won't showcase the benefits of worker pairing because the point of peak economy still comes too quickly.
These concerns lead me to believe that, unless DH address macro mechanics (or alternatively raises supply cap but I don't think that's a good idea due to performance issues), then it won't do any good and this whole grand endeavor is for naught. This worried me a lot! If this is true, it seems wiser to rework macro mechanics on the DH mod before proceeding any further. I understand this may be seen as tampering with the game more further than Blizzard is willing to go, but if the DH mod can't showcase the benefits without macro mechanics rework, then it's all useless!
What do you think? I'm quite concerned about this; hopefully your response can restore my peace of mind.
Do you have a link to Lalushs comments? I think we need way more data than we have to make any conclusions in general though.
The point seems pretty well thought out on his part, and it sounds like the folks over at Starbow have already done some testing. That isn't final, of course, but I think it's cause for concern.
I think you guys are making too big conclusions out of a single round of matches, between two players who - as some point out - were not exactly of the same skill in the first place. We need more matches! Overcompensating can be dangerous for other reasons. One being - seriously punishing a player who actually tries to raise an expo but loses it.
On April 28 2015 05:55 Pontius Pirate wrote: If the Parting vs Scarlett showmatch demonstrated anything that can actually be taken away, it's that we need to test a slightly more extreme version of the mod in order to showcase Zeromus' intended economic changes. Even if it would have to be toned down before actual implementation, DH9 didn't lead to very visually different games, and when demonstrating a model that was formerly only theorized, it would behoove the creators to endorse some more ambitious testing changes. Don't get me wrong, some of the games were very exciting. The increased mineral income on both players' parts led to slightly more unit wealth. Scarlett held more bases than would be expected at certain times of the game and saturated some of them with slightly fewer workers than would be expected. It lead to exciting large-army trades almost constantly in a couple of the games, as they bounced between 160 and 190 supply for about 15 minutes of a 25 game. I'd label it a very above-average game, from an entertainment perspective. It's possible that DH9 was the singular reason for why a couple of the games were great, but hard to say. We need a more extreme version of your mod, in order to test this out.
For the sake of demonstrating your model's efficacy, a more aggressive efficiency decrease between 8 and 16 workers is needed. It will almost certainly not make the final game, but it's the only way to showcase an element of the game that usually remains behind the scenes.
These are good points. Once we get more data (soon, hopefully) we'll be able to make more conclusive statements about things. But I agree that the initial testing suggests that the changes aren't extreme enough.
I'm actually not saying that the changes aren't extreme enough for testing towards implementing them in-game. I'm just saying that the merits of the economy mod would be much better showcased by an exaggerated change. Once you guys get down to the nitty-gritty testing of having tons and tons of people play it, it can be scaled back to something similar to DH9. But demonstrating to the people kind of needs some more dramatic results for the sake of spectacle.
On April 28 2015 12:41 AmicusVenti wrote: Zeromus, I've noticed Lalush has been stating his concerns lately that DH won't make any appreciable difference on SC2 as a whole, and that thinking in terms of when peak economy occurs is much more important. For example, in the case of Zerg against Turtle Mech, Lalush believes that the Mech player will max out before the Zerg player has a chance to capitalize on the increased income.
I think that was more or less the result of the simulation in the other thread as well. The high-basing zerg will max faster, but not by enough to make a big difference.
How about giving workers back their collision box? Then the mineral line will crowd up pretty quickly when you have many workers, potentially even before you have 1 worker per mineral, and it is hard to amke it more intuitive, as the transparent workers going through each other clearly isn't very intuitive.
Maybe you could make only the mineral-carrying workers a collision box, so that even if you have 50 workers on minerals, the vast majority of them that doesn't carry minerals can overlap, but they'll have to jump out of the way when a mineral-carrying worker wants to return.
lets be honest here. Double harvest will most likely stay an idea. A good one, a well thought out one but highly doubt it will get implemented.
i think the biggest flaw of double harvest - is the way it actually changes the economy, unit timings would have to be rebalanced. This is a change with such big impact, i doubt blizzard will implement it. Listening to all the upsides of DH definitely makes you biased towards DH - while the 100%/60% model (if someone posted an equally informative thread) would cause you to cheer for that model.
So lets try to like the 100%/60% model, while flawed - i dont actually think its that terrible. Its certainly better than HoTS - and thats an improvement.
The LotV model changes timings much more drastically than double harvest, which is actually a massive reason why zerg has been so much stronger than terran or protoss in the beta so far.
Some of my thoughts on DH and why it hasn't (yet?) devilered as significant significant results as the author of the article probably had imagined:
Reason 1 The income assymetry only plays a small part in whether you incentived to army trade or not. I previously made a rough guess that unit design/abilities accounts for 80% of the incentive difference for army trading from BW to Sc2. For instance, I don't believe zerg in BW would be able to overlord drops as efficiently if they faced Vikings instead of Goliaths, and they would have trouble attacking into defensive lines if they had no Defilers and faced mass PDDs.
Reason 2 DH doesn't properly reward immobile players for being on 2 base compared to 3 bases (note your not immobile if you mass Warpgate units). In BW if you had 45 mining workers, you only increased mineral income by 15%. In DH on the other hand, the difference between in income when using 50 workers is 25% (note: the reason I am using more workers here is due to chronoboost). On top of that, you can dramatiscally increase your mineral income by taking a 3rd and going to 60 workers in DH (over 30%). Such an opportunity didn't exist in BW:
TLDR: Protoss will opt to rush to 3 bases, and yes, the mobile opponent will have a slightly easier time army trading vs it if he takes more bases, and protoss will have a slightly easier time harassing the enemy mobile player (since that player is spread out further). However, this isn't a fundamental fix to Sc2.
On April 28 2015 18:41 Hider wrote: Reason 2 DH doesn't properly reward immobile players for being on 2 base compared to 3 bases (note your not immobile if you mass Warpgate units). In BW if you had 45 mining workers, you only increased mineral income by 15%. In DH on the other hand, the difference between in income when using 50 workers is 25% (note: the reason I am using more workers here is due to chronoboost). On top of that, you can dramatiscally increase your mineral income by taking a 3rd and going to 60 workers in DH (over 30%). Such an opportunity didn't exist in BW:
I am confused here. In short - you say BW favored expanding less than DH and you say it is a good thing? You say DH should be weaker in rewarding an expanding player?
On April 28 2015 18:41 Hider wrote: TLDR: Protoss will opt to rush to 3 bases, and yes, the mobile opponent will have a slightly easier time army trading vs it if he takes more bases, and protoss will have a slightly easier time harassing the enemy mobile player (since that player is spread out further). However, this isn't a fundamental fix to Sc2.
It is a fix. It does not fix everything however. We are not trying to fix everything.
I am confused here. In short - you say BW favored expanding less than DH and you say it is a good thing?
The concept 99% of people confuses is that BW didn't reward everyone for expanding. No it rewarded being up multiple bases. But being up 3-to-2 bases wasn't signficiantly rewarded. However, being up 6 to 3 bases was heavily rewarded.
So think about how this impact the decision making players. If your mobile --> You take lots of bases as you can. If you immobile --> You stay on fewer bases than in Sc2.
What is the advantage of sitting on fewer bases? You can be aggressive faster and easier. For instance, if protoss and terran had to play vs Zerg while taking bases super fast (in BW), they would have turtled super hard too.
SC2 = You rush to 3 bases, and take extra bases at a slow pace afterwards. BW immobile = You stay on 2 bases for a long time if your units are strong in the midgame (e.g. protoss vs zerg and bio vs zerg). = You prefer to take a 3rd faster if your immobile but your units scale better (e.g. mech) --> As you can't reallly attack with your army, so you rather just take bases as soon as possible instead. BW mobile: You take bases much faster. DH = Immobile rushes to 3 bases and probably stays there for a while. Mobile will take bases much faster.
It is a fix. It does not fix everything however. We are not trying to fix everything.
The problem is that if you make a "fix" with lots of consequences for balance, then it needs to be supereffective. E.g. removing Forcefields, redesigning Collosus, Ravens, Ghosts could have HUGE consequencs. But if well executed, it could also lead to dramastically better gameplay. I don't see that as big upside with DH. Rather, I see it as being 10-20% better than Sc2-econ.
On the other hand, I actually do see more upside with LOTV econ if it succesfully manages to make defensive play viable as well. I don't think David Kim will do this, but theoretically, I see the most potential with this econ.
It never made logically sense to me that the TL staff has had such a focus on a new econ, instead of coming up with unit design suggestions that could (in a different way) recreate the good concepts from the BW-dynamic.
Immobile players taking a third so easily is partly a map thing. Map makers thought that the was best route at the time, for balance or whatever reason, but the thirds tend to be very close on SC2 maps compared to BW. If you make it tougher to take a third, the reward it gives might balance out the high reward for being 3 bases to 2.
It could still have a problem where the mobile player gets a third and the immobile player doesn't but can't do much with only two bases. Then we've still got that problem from WoL back when we started making easier thirds in the first place (generally for PvZ balance, and imo it made most the other matchups worse.) If we could do it over again I would have probably thought we should leave the maps alone and wait for Blizzard to adjust the units with a patch. We were too short sighted I think.
On April 29 2015 01:52 Gfire wrote: Immobile players taking a third so easily is partly a map thing. Map makers thought that the was best route at the time, for balance or whatever reason, but the thirds tend to be very close on SC2 maps compared to BW. If you make it tougher to take a third, the reward it gives might balance out the high reward for being 3 bases to 2.
It could still have a problem where the mobile player gets a third and the immobile player doesn't but can't do much with only two bases. Then we've still got that problem from WoL back when we started making easier thirds in the first place (generally for PvZ balance, and imo it made most the other matchups worse.) If we could do it over again I would have probably thought we should leave the maps alone and wait for Blizzard to adjust the units with a patch. We were too short sighted I think.
Similarly, a potential worry with LotV economy is that map makers will give players safer fourth and fifth bases. I think that with Double Harvesting the pressure on map makers to make easily defensible expansions is not as severe because it's supposed to be okay if there is asymmetry in races taking expansions. I think LotV economy still pushes towards symmetry, albeit one that people enjoy more, one where every race is supposed to be mobile and spread out (and failing that, one where maps allow even immobile players to win).
^ If Blizzard goes ahead with LotV looking like it does now, we'll definitely see 4th bases that are comparable to present 3rd bases in how easy they are to establish. Imo this wouldn't be such a bad thing, if you depress the economy and provide an easier (closer) string of expansions in compensation, it creates more timings --> more action. It also provides more options for mapmakers.
On May 07 2015 03:07 summerloud wrote: i think there is a much more elegant solution to the whole dilemma, that would increase strategic depth as well
just increase the supply cap, at least to 300, maybe even more.
todays pcs will have no problem with the huge amount of units, and sc was always meant to be about big scale battles
with 300 supply, you can easily have 120 workers, and thus saturate 5 bases
Plexa has mentioned this before, and I think it's a pretty elegant solution as well. However, I'm not entirely sure Blizzard would do this, and there's no telling what the outcomes would actually be; in theory it makes sense, but it's very likely that people might just go 60 workers and max out on an even larger army anyway.
On May 07 2015 03:07 summerloud wrote: i think there is a much more elegant solution to the whole dilemma, that would increase strategic depth as well
just increase the supply cap, at least to 300, maybe even more.
todays pcs will have no problem with the huge amount of units, and sc was always meant to be about big scale battles
with 300 supply, you can easily have 120 workers, and thus saturate 5 bases
Plexa has mentioned this before, and I think it's a pretty elegant solution as well. However, I'm not entirely sure Blizzard would do this, and there's no telling what the outcomes would actually be; in theory it makes sense, but it's very likely that people might just go 60 workers and max out on an even larger army anyway.
I really don't think people would still Max out on 60 workers. 4 bases is 88 workers, and a 212 supply army isn't that much smaller than a 234 supply army, for a much faster max and remax. I think the bigger problem is the balance, seeing how some units scale much better in large numbers than others. I think much of the game would have to be rebalanced. New maps would also be needed ofc.
There is also the problem of team games. I think they'd have to change hardware requirement to play a maxed 4 on 4.
On May 07 2015 03:07 summerloud wrote: i think there is a much more elegant solution to the whole dilemma, that would increase strategic depth as well
just increase the supply cap, at least to 300, maybe even more.
todays pcs will have no problem with the huge amount of units, and sc was always meant to be about big scale battles
with 300 supply, you can easily have 120 workers, and thus saturate 5 bases
Plexa has mentioned this before, and I think it's a pretty elegant solution as well. However, I'm not entirely sure Blizzard would do this, and there's no telling what the outcomes would actually be; in theory it makes sense, but it's very likely that people might just go 60 workers and max out on an even larger army anyway.
I really don't think people would still Max out on 60 workers. 4 bases is 88 workers, and a 212 supply army isn't that much smaller than a 234 supply army, for a much faster max and remax. I think the bigger problem is the balance, seeing how some units scale much better in large numbers than others. I think much of the game would have to be rebalanced. New maps would also be needed ofc.
There is also the problem of team games. I think they'd have to change hardware requirement to play a maxed 4 on 4.
Otherwise I think it's a good solution.
There is a simple way to virtually increase the supply cap: half worker supply. If you have eighty workers in a typical late-game situation, then with worker supply halved forty supply is freed up. I suspect technology limitations primarily exist for additional army units interacting with each other in battles, while additional workers will cause less strain. With worker supply only being half you can have relatively more new workers than new army, since it mostly affects the former not the latter. So in the example you can add either eighty more workers or only forty marines.
Of course all early game builds would have to change.
Two weeks later, no further comment from Blizzard apart from the one that showed that they didn't understand this system. A valiant effort, alas futile.
On May 08 2015 01:40 OtherWorld wrote: Two weeks later, no further comment from Blizzard apart from the one that showed that they didn't understand this system. A valiant effort, alas futile.
Hey. What if blizzard is actually right this time and OP is just stupid? What if reducing the number of workers per base does not magically make defending more bases easier? What if reducing the number of workers per base does only make all ins more powerful? What if older bases getting depleted faster is the only way to make people expand more?
I mean really. I dont care if you write one million word post as OP, but reducing the difference of economy between players who have spent a different amount of money in workers, does in no way help the macro player. You say you are encouraging players to expand instead of punishing for not expanding like blizzard does. What you actually do is you punish players for building workers.
Or you can go ahead and try to defend 6 bases as terran or protoss vs any race in the "Starcraft II: defenses nerfed, harass buffed" expansion. Pro tip: you cant.
On May 08 2015 01:17 Grumbels wrote: There is a simple way to virtually increase the supply cap: half worker supply. If you have eighty workers in a typical late-game situation, then with worker supply halved forty supply is freed up. I suspect technology limitations primarily exist for additional army units interacting with each other in battles, while additional workers will cause less strain. With worker supply only being half you can have relatively more new workers than new army, since it mostly affects the former not the latter. So in the example you can add either eighty more workers or only forty marines.
Of course all early game builds would have to change.
This is indeed an interesting idea. I am just worried that this may buff zerg more than any other race. Although, of course, it would be also easy to fall into a trap of overexpanding without any military support.
after playing lotv and the mods ive come to decide the lotv model only speeds up the first bit of the game, after a 2nd base is taken and saturated . .faster, the game goes back to the ay it was with the added bonus of the base runs out quicker so you have to expand . . i like the early speed i hate the pressure of the MUST expand
DH seems ok a bit better overall but the more i play its like i just want that fast eco but the pace of hots . .how about leave everything the same give us a 16 drone start programmed to instantly doubleharvest with no bounce?
On May 08 2015 01:17 Grumbels wrote: There is a simple way to virtually increase the supply cap: half worker supply. If you have eighty workers in a typical late-game situation, then with worker supply halved forty supply is freed up. I suspect technology limitations primarily exist for additional army units interacting with each other in battles, while additional workers will cause less strain. With worker supply only being half you can have relatively more new workers than new army, since it mostly affects the former not the latter. So in the example you can add either eighty more workers or only forty marines.
Of course all early game builds would have to change.
This is indeed an interesting idea. I am just worried that this may buff zerg more than any other race. Although, of course, it would be also easy to fall into a trap of overexpanding without any military support.
Yes I like this idea as well. It would have to be rebalanced a bit, and specially maps remade.
So I was killing time the other day and decided to pit two Elite AI against each other for my own vapid amusement. in doing so, I made an mildly interesting discovery.
The AIs spread out to 4-6 mining bases each, and diligently split their workers to have 8 on each base.
This suggests to me that, at some point, on some level, Blizzard felt that 8 per base should be efficient saturation. Indeed, as many of us have noted, 1 per patch just seems intuitive.
I hope they test the idea out. They haven't really given any more thoughts on it since that post by David Kim that seemed poorly understood.
Someone said before that the original post is a research paper. And it's not, but it could be one with a little of work on it. Perhaps ir could be a good idea to create a scientific journal about that: Journal of strategy games design, or something like that. Ajournal to discuss things like this, that will happen in diffent games when someone try to change their basis.
On May 12 2015 06:49 AmicusVenti wrote: So I was killing time the other day and decided to pit two Elite AI against each other for my own vapid amusement. in doing so, I made an mildly interesting discovery.
The AIs spread out to 4-6 mining bases each, and diligently split their workers to have 8 on each base.
This suggests to me that, at some point, on some level, Blizzard felt that 8 per base should be efficient saturation. Indeed, as many of us have noted, 1 per patch just seems intuitive.
I hope they test the idea out. They haven't really given any more thoughts on it since that post by David Kim that seemed poorly understood.
Ahah, nice to see other people realizing this too.
Correct, the developers of the AI thought that the most efficient way for the AI to work is if each base had 8 workers instead of 16, and that as you say is because it is much more intuitive.
On May 12 2015 16:09 BlackLilium wrote: A real journal should be peer reviewed. But who would be the peer?
There are many people that can review this kind of content inside game developer companies and some people recognized by the community, like some good casters that really understand the game.
And I guess that this community has a lot of researches inside, perhaps some of them have relationship with videogames design at any level. I'm mathematics education researcher and I try to use videogames in mathematics class. I'm sure I have not the knowledge (or time!!) to do that, but I think it could be a great idea.
From my point of view, videogames are a knowlegde source and it should be stablish in a scientific way.
I am researcher myself. But I know exactly nothing how to create a journal, advertize it adequately, and organize all that stuff around it. I just write papers to existing journals...
On May 13 2015 00:47 BlackLilium wrote: I am researcher myself. But I know exactly nothing how to create a journal, advertize it adequately, and organize all that stuff around it. I just write papers to existing journals...
I suppose we are too young for that. I know today there are open web formats for journals, but the difficult thing is find people and define objectives and ways to work. What is your field?
On May 13 2015 01:30 tresquarts wrote: What is your field?
Computer Science -> Compilers (although I do my PhD in Computer Graphics)
And you don't know someone working on videogame AI or design? I know in my university there is a guy who is researching in AI and make a bot to play starcraft and competes in different AI tournament. They published this paper:
Nope. I think it's becase we are doing more "hardcore" research. Something that might be useful in 5 years.... or not That, and probably I am not that good researcher in terms of getting to know new people.
On May 07 2015 03:07 summerloud wrote: i think there is a much more elegant solution to the whole dilemma, that would increase strategic depth as well
just increase the supply cap, at least to 300, maybe even more.
todays pcs will have no problem with the huge amount of units, and sc was always meant to be about big scale battles
with 300 supply, you can easily have 120 workers, and thus saturate 5 bases
Plexa has mentioned this before, and I think it's a pretty elegant solution as well. However, I'm not entirely sure Blizzard would do this, and there's no telling what the outcomes would actually be; in theory it makes sense, but it's very likely that people might just go 60 workers and max out on an even larger army anyway.
I really don't think people would still Max out on 60 workers. 4 bases is 88 workers, and a 212 supply army isn't that much smaller than a 234 supply army, for a much faster max and remax. I think the bigger problem is the balance, seeing how some units scale much better in large numbers than others. I think much of the game would have to be rebalanced. New maps would also be needed ofc.
There is also the problem of team games. I think they'd have to change hardware requirement to play a maxed 4 on 4.
Otherwise I think it's a good solution.
There is a simple way to virtually increase the supply cap: half worker supply. If you have eighty workers in a typical late-game situation, then with worker supply halved forty supply is freed up. I suspect technology limitations primarily exist for additional army units interacting with each other in battles, while additional workers will cause less strain. With worker supply only being half you can have relatively more new workers than new army, since it mostly affects the former not the latter. So in the example you can add either eighty more workers or only forty marines.
Of course all early game builds would have to change.
Yeah I've always thought that is a decent way to adress the issues as well, the problem with the early game supply may be solved by letting the town hall give less supply? I can not imagine that would be cause too big of a landslide?
On May 07 2015 03:07 summerloud wrote: i think there is a much more elegant solution to the whole dilemma, that would increase strategic depth as well
just increase the supply cap, at least to 300, maybe even more.
todays pcs will have no problem with the huge amount of units, and sc was always meant to be about big scale battles
with 300 supply, you can easily have 120 workers, and thus saturate 5 bases
Plexa has mentioned this before, and I think it's a pretty elegant solution as well. However, I'm not entirely sure Blizzard would do this, and there's no telling what the outcomes would actually be; in theory it makes sense, but it's very likely that people might just go 60 workers and max out on an even larger army anyway.
I think its more likely they increase the supply cap than implement DH tbh. Probably not to 300, but 250 could do it as well.
I don't think they want to do any of this. All their messages aim towards shorter games. Neither a scaling economy model, nor a higher supply cap provide that. Only killing the players unable to move out does that.
On May 13 2015 04:25 Big J wrote: I don't think they want to do any of this. All their messages aim towards shorter games. Neither a scaling economy model, nor a higher supply cap provide that. Only killing the players unable to move out does that.
This is a big part of why we're trying to advocate for DH + LotV ideas. We think that a scaling model is really important to distinguish income between players depending on map control and bases, but if Blizzard wants to move games along faster, an overall reduction in minerals per base also keeps the game moving along at a quick pace similar to LotV.
On May 13 2015 04:25 Big J wrote: I don't think they want to do any of this. All their messages aim towards shorter games. Neither a scaling economy model, nor a higher supply cap provide that. Only killing the players unable to move out does that.
This is a big part of why we're trying to advocate for DH + LotV ideas. We think that a scaling model is really important to distinguish income between players depending on map control and bases, but if Blizzard wants to move games along faster, an overall reduction in minerals per base also keeps the game moving along at a quick pace similar to LotV.
In lotv it seems like you really do have to take bases before you actually need them, especially your fourth and fifth, because your natural mines out to half patches pretty quickly after your main. So if you don't pre-expand you have this weird period where you go back to essentially a 2 base mineral income after being on a three base income or stay on three base income as your fourth becomes active. That makes it pretty difficult to, say, break a contain or pressure bases while expanding.
I think the logical next step is to remove worker pairing somehow so that you can actually benefit from the risk you're required to take.
That being said, if you do keep up with expansions the pace is ridiculously fun. I'd personally like a "both and" model.
The new direction of the Economy in Void is supposedly designed to encourage faster expanding. Four patches at each base have half the amount of minerals. Bases mine out faster, sure.. but does this really discourage camping any more than we see now in Swarm?
As Stephano recently said in an interview with Red Bull, it's still too easy to camp on 3 bases until your main mines out. This doesn't change the need to take expansions much faster beyond your third base, it just means you need to get to three bases faster, and then take a new one each time another mines out. It still means an ideal economy functions just fine off of 2-3 bases of income the entire game.
We have seen the Double Harvester idea thrown around plenty since beta rolled out, but many are bringing up that there are some drawbacks that haven't been considered. It's also not easy to explain, and if it were to confuse the lower levels too much it could turn many players away from the game.
This is why I have another idea I would like to put up for debate: 6 patches per base with 1500 minerals in all patches. It's more visually obvious (also less confusing to the majority of players) and a more expansion-favorable direction than the current one.
What difference would this make? You'll fully saturate with workers faster. This would mean you'll need to expand faster if you want to keep making your workers useful.
Removing two mineral patches at each base and going with 1500 minerals in every patch again would effectively remove the exact same amount of minerals at each base as the current method does.
50% removed from four patches: 750 x 4 = 3000 Removing two mineral patches: 1500 x 2 = 3000
I have considered what affect this could have on MULEs and 1-basing builds. Terrans can camp on one base and get a better income than other races with MULEs, but I would argue the more aggressive unit changes in Void would discourage this.
I don't think it's bad to have 1-base Terran builds in the game, as long as expanding is still favored. After heavily considering this, I believe it's exactly the kind of fresh change this game could use. It would need to be tested of course, but testing out change this early on isn't a bad thing.. as long as it makes sense.
I'd also say the current 12 worker start is more detrimental than optimal. I'd like to see a happy medium tried at the start of 9 workers and 200 minerals.. instead of 50. This still allows for cheese builds to be somewhat effective, and won't affect early timing builds as much. It also means you have an earlier choice than you do now.. build 3 workers to get to 12 (especially as zerg), build supply, gas, or expand. Giving players this choice makes very-early game more interesting and less predictable.. something the 12-worker start is not quite achieving.
I haven't yet considered all of the affects of a simpler-yet-faster economic style or a 9 workers/200 minerals start, but I wouldn't mind if it were considered as a possibility. Feedback is welcome!
On May 14 2015 15:44 frostalgia wrote: This is why I have another idea I would like to put up for debate: 6 patches per base with 1500 minerals in all patches. It's more visually obvious (also less confusing to the majority of players) and a more expansion-favorable direction than the current one.
That has been suggested by Barrin as well in the past (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/335302-mod-frb) I think it should be up to map makers to decide if they want 6, 7 or 8 patches in a base. More diversity between bases please! There is no grand-thuth-standard. Standard is only what we (or Blizzard) make it be. If all 6/7/8-mineral patch bases were called "Standard" we would see more of them in the maps.
Moreover, you don't need LotV to make it so. HotS maps could be made as such as well!
On May 14 2015 15:44 frostalgia wrote: This is why I have another idea I would like to put up for debate: 6 patches per base with 1500 minerals in all patches. It's more visually obvious (also less confusing to the majority of players) and a more expansion-favorable direction than the current one.
That has been suggested by Barrin as well in the past (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/335302-mod-frb) I think it should be up to map makers to decide if they want 6, 7 or 8 patches in a base. More diversity between bases please! There is no grand-thuth-standard. Standard is only what we (or Blizzard) make it be. If all 6/7/8-mineral patch bases were called "Standard" we would see more of them in the maps.
Moreover, you don't need LotV to make it so. HotS maps could be made as such as well!
Ok so if blizzard does not want Barrins suggestion, why does anyone believe there is a chance for DH? I think we all and blizzard know that FRB is vastly superior in every single possible way of what DH aims at but also fixes other problems, while being ridiculously more simple.
On May 14 2015 15:44 frostalgia wrote: This is why I have another idea I would like to put up for debate: 6 patches per base with 1500 minerals in all patches. It's more visually obvious (also less confusing to the majority of players) and a more expansion-favorable direction than the current one.
That has been suggested by Barrin as well in the past (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/335302-mod-frb) I think it should be up to map makers to decide if they want 6, 7 or 8 patches in a base. More diversity between bases please! There is no grand-thuth-standard. Standard is only what we (or Blizzard) make it be. If all 6/7/8-mineral patch bases were called "Standard" we would see more of them in the maps.
Moreover, you don't need LotV to make it so. HotS maps could be made as such as well!
Ok so if blizzard does not want Barrins suggestion, why does anyone believe there is a chance for DH? I think we all and blizzard know that FRB is vastly superior in every single possible way of what DH aims at but also fixes other problems, while being ridiculously more simple.
It does not make any sense really.
It doesn't fix the problem that the economy always increments in units of 2n patches, making it pointless to expand once you've reach the equilibrium point for workers/army in your supply. And it has other problems as well, like a linear income curve and abusable timings / imbalances in certain matchups, such as pvz where you literally can't forge FE safely without getting behind.
On May 14 2015 15:44 frostalgia wrote: This is why I have another idea I would like to put up for debate: 6 patches per base with 1500 minerals in all patches. It's more visually obvious (also less confusing to the majority of players) and a more expansion-favorable direction than the current one.
That has been suggested by Barrin as well in the past (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/335302-mod-frb) I think it should be up to map makers to decide if they want 6, 7 or 8 patches in a base. More diversity between bases please! There is no grand-thuth-standard. Standard is only what we (or Blizzard) make it be. If all 6/7/8-mineral patch bases were called "Standard" we would see more of them in the maps.
Moreover, you don't need LotV to make it so. HotS maps could be made as such as well!
Ok so if blizzard does not want Barrins suggestion, why does anyone believe there is a chance for DH? I think we all and blizzard know that FRB is vastly superior in every single possible way of what DH aims at but also fixes other problems, while being ridiculously more simple.
It does not make any sense really.
FRB is not vastly superior to DH, it doesn't fix the linear economy.
On May 14 2015 15:44 frostalgia wrote: As Stephano recently said in an interview with Red Bull, it's still too easy to camp on 3 bases until your main mines out. This doesn't change the need to take expansions much faster beyond your third base, it just means you need to get to three bases faster, and then take a new one each time another mines out. It still means an ideal economy functions just fine off of 2-3 bases of income the entire game.
Regarding the viability to stay on three bases in hots/lotv/DH, maybe I can advertise the modelling in this thread. In line with what Stephano says, you can just barely turtle up to max on three bases just as fast as on more bases in lotv, but there is no remax for the 3-baser. In DH, it is faster to max by going up to more bases, but you have some chances to remax after a trade from a 3-base all-in.
If you want to compare how a 6-patch model does in comparison, it is fairly easy to plug it into the model and compare it to the others. But it seems it has mostly fallen out of favour, not least beacause Barrin (that drove the project) doesn't like it any more.
On May 14 2015 15:44 frostalgia wrote: This is why I have another idea I would like to put up for debate: 6 patches per base with 1500 minerals in all patches. It's more visually obvious (also less confusing to the majority of players) and a more expansion-favorable direction than the current one.
That has been suggested by Barrin as well in the past (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/335302-mod-frb) I think it should be up to map makers to decide if they want 6, 7 or 8 patches in a base. More diversity between bases please! There is no grand-thuth-standard. Standard is only what we (or Blizzard) make it be. If all 6/7/8-mineral patch bases were called "Standard" we would see more of them in the maps.
Moreover, you don't need LotV to make it so. HotS maps could be made as such as well!
Ok so if blizzard does not want Barrins suggestion, why does anyone believe there is a chance for DH? I think we all and blizzard know that FRB is vastly superior in every single possible way of what DH aims at but also fixes other problems, while being ridiculously more simple.
It does not make any sense really.
It doesn't fix the problem that the economy always increments in units of 2n patches, making it pointless to expand once you've reach the equilibrium point for workers/army in your supply. And it has other problems as well, like a linear income curve and abusable timings / imbalances in certain matchups, such as pvz where you literally can't forge FE safely without getting behind.
1.In FRB the "optimal" aumont of workers per base is 15, and after that adding more workers creates inefficiency, in DH this number is 14. So the number of bases you must hold to reach the equilibrium point for workers/army in your supply, is the same. But in either case the number of bases is so high (5-6 bases or more if you want gas over minerals) that its pretty unrealistic in most matches that it will be reached.
2. The absolute biggest problem in the DH model is that it makes timing attacks too strong. Because the income curve is so un linear in DH, it punishes players for building workers. Lets assume both players are on equal bases. The other player aims at stronger late and builds some extra workers. Now the aggressive player did not "waste" money on creating so many of these inefficient workers, and thus has a big advantage in the money he has spent on army, while the money the defender spent on economy will not help him enough in DH.
3. You are playing a game where one of the races is vastly more mobile than the other two races, especially in early and mid game. Also that same very race happens to get extra unit production and creep spread for each additional base it builds. The townhalls of the other two races are pretty much useless on the other hand. If you are worried about "imbalances in certain matchups, such as pvz" then you should be heavily against any idea that encourages taking more bases. If you are ok with zerg getting heavy nerfs to counter balance these issues then its ok. But the current blizzard LotV model would need by far the least changes as it does not require players to actually defend more bases at once, only to expand more frequently.
On May 14 2015 15:44 frostalgia wrote: This is why I have another idea I would like to put up for debate: 6 patches per base with 1500 minerals in all patches. It's more visually obvious (also less confusing to the majority of players) and a more expansion-favorable direction than the current one.
That has been suggested by Barrin as well in the past (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/335302-mod-frb) I think it should be up to map makers to decide if they want 6, 7 or 8 patches in a base. More diversity between bases please! There is no grand-thuth-standard. Standard is only what we (or Blizzard) make it be. If all 6/7/8-mineral patch bases were called "Standard" we would see more of them in the maps.
Moreover, you don't need LotV to make it so. HotS maps could be made as such as well!
Ok so if blizzard does not want Barrins suggestion, why does anyone believe there is a chance for DH? I think we all and blizzard know that FRB is vastly superior in every single possible way of what DH aims at but also fixes other problems, while being ridiculously more simple.
It does not make any sense really.
DH and FRB are different models aiming at solving different problems, comparing them in a vacuum makes no sense. There are two distinct problems with the SC2 economy:
(1) Too many resources too fast (hyper-development); (2) Because of the {2;2;1} worker triplet, we have 48w on 3b = 48w on 4b = 48w on 5b.
The DH principle solves (2), but the associated number matters a lot. DH10 and DH9 make (1) worse. Only DH8 solves both.
Some variants of FRB attack (1), but only indirectly. If you remove 2 mineral nodes per base, for instance, you decrease the amount of resources per minute you get from a saturated base, but you still reach the optimal saturation too fast. The length of the eco curve decreases, but its initial steepness remains. + Show Spoiler +
In black, the current SC2 economy. In orange, what a 6 mineral nodes FRB would achieve on the same basis.
If you remove some mineral from the 8 nodes, you still don't address the initial steepness of the eco curve, you simply make it collapse earlier than before.
Blizzard will not give a damn about the DH principle because (1) is fully intended and has become the very basis of SC2 (hence the terrible 12 workers change), while (2) is mostly an irrelevant by-product in their mind. They merely intend to use some FRB to kill the most visible bad consequence, because people wrongly focused on the 3b play symptom instead of the hyper-development disease.
On May 14 2015 15:44 frostalgia wrote: This is why I have another idea I would like to put up for debate: 6 patches per base with 1500 minerals in all patches. It's more visually obvious (also less confusing to the majority of players) and a more expansion-favorable direction than the current one.
That has been suggested by Barrin as well in the past (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/335302-mod-frb) I think it should be up to map makers to decide if they want 6, 7 or 8 patches in a base. More diversity between bases please! There is no grand-thuth-standard. Standard is only what we (or Blizzard) make it be. If all 6/7/8-mineral patch bases were called "Standard" we would see more of them in the maps.
Moreover, you don't need LotV to make it so. HotS maps could be made as such as well!
Ok so if blizzard does not want Barrins suggestion, why does anyone believe there is a chance for DH? I think we all and blizzard know that FRB is vastly superior in every single possible way of what DH aims at but also fixes other problems, while being ridiculously more simple.
It does not make any sense really.
It doesn't fix the problem that the economy always increments in units of 2n patches, making it pointless to expand once you've reach the equilibrium point for workers/army in your supply. And it has other problems as well, like a linear income curve and abusable timings / imbalances in certain matchups, such as pvz where you literally can't forge FE safely without getting behind.
1.In FRB the "optimal" aumont of workers per base is 15, and after that adding more workers creates inefficiency, in DH this number is 14. So the number of bases you must hold to reach the equilibrium point for workers/army in your supply, is the same. But in either case the number of bases is so high (5-6 bases or more if you want gas over minerals) that its pretty unrealistic in most matches that it will be reached.
2. The absolute biggest problem in the DH model is that it makes timing attacks too strong. Because the income curve is so un linear in DH, it punishes players for building workers. Lets assume both players are on equal bases. The other player aims at stronger late and builds some extra workers. Now the aggressive player did not "waste" money on creating so many of these inefficient workers, and thus has a big advantage in the money he has spent on army, while the money the defender spent on economy will not help him enough in DH.
3. You are playing a game where one of the races is vastly more mobile than the other two races, especially in early and mid game. Also that same very race happens to get extra unit production and creep spread for each additional base it builds. The townhalls of the other two races are pretty much useless on the other hand. If you are worried about "imbalances in certain matchups, such as pvz" then you should be heavily against any idea that encourages taking more bases. If you are ok with zerg getting heavy nerfs to counter balance these issues then its ok. But the current blizzard LotV model would need by far the least changes as it does not require players to actually defend more bases at once, only to expand more frequently.
1. The curves are vastly different, and the argument you're making here ignores this. Until you have n workers/base (+ gas, whatever), there is incentive to expand in DH style economies. 5-6 bases is unlikely, but the purpose of the economic model is not to force players to spam bases, it's to afford wider variety of strategy (namely low tech swarming) for players who go up 1-2 bases and use that econ advantage which doesn't exist in FRB economies.
2. A few things. First, aggression always seems strong with new elements in RTS but is always more and more limited by player knowledge and execution. In addition with built-in defenders advantage, making extra workers is not suicide, it's a good strategy. The beauty of DH type econ is that making extra workers OR making extra bases OR both always means more money. It doesn't matter that your workers are inefficient if you're still getting more money and you're alive. That's an advantage not a liability. While it is speculative to say so (like much of these discussions), if players are dying too much to timings in DH, it's because it's new, not because it's broken. Moreover, have you ever seen what happens in a 6m1hyg FRB game? New timings = dead players.
3. We're already in an environment with balance between asymmetries including zerg going up a base or two (with the production that entails). I'm not sure what you're trying to argue; could you explain? Also it's not quite as simple as "always on 3 base" as cascade points out, but even if it were, defending 3 new around-the-map mining bases is not the same as defending on 3 bases. Not at all. In any case new econ + new units will always require rebalancing and probably (hopefully) different (better) map standards.
@dwf: I think most of the DH crowd would prefer something like DH8 due to their favor towards "strategy", but I'd say even fast economies without FRB still stretch one side of timings and make everything more granular anyway. This doesn't address the speed at which you can reach lategame tech, but it does make for a much much longer window where econ choices matter (affecting everything else in turn).
On May 15 2015 03:53 EatThePath wrote: @dwf: I think most of the DH crowd would prefer something like DH8 due to their favor towards "strategy", but I'd say even fast economies without FRB still stretch one side of timings and make everything more granular anyway. This doesn't address the speed at which you can reach lategame tech, but it does make for a much much longer window where econ choices matter (affecting everything else in turn).
What has a longer window where econ choices matter than what? I'm not sure the systems your comparing or what you mean by "fast economies without FRB".
On May 14 2015 18:29 NasusAndDraven wrote: 2. The absolute biggest problem in the DH model is that it makes timing attacks too strong. Because the income curve is so un linear in DH, it punishes players for building workers. Lets assume both players are on equal bases. The other player aims at stronger late and builds some extra workers. Now the aggressive player did not "waste" money on creating so many of these inefficient workers, and thus has a big advantage in the money he has spent on army, while the money the defender spent on economy will not help him enough in DH.
As EatThePath already commented - new timing attacks is something people need to relearn in order not to die. What you see as "punishment for new workers", I read as: an ability to cut workers for a stronger push without falling too much behind and going all-in. Attacks which do some damage after a worker cut are more viable in DH.
What people need to learn is the ability to read the opponent: is he cutting workers or not? Will I be able to defend myself or not? Something zerg players already know from ZvZ now becomes a little bit more important in other matchups as well.
As a result I don't see it as a liability, but rather a strong argument for DH model.
On May 15 2015 03:53 EatThePath wrote: @dwf: I think most of the DH crowd would prefer something like DH8 due to their favor towards "strategy", but I'd say even fast economies without FRB still stretch one side of timings and make everything more granular anyway. This doesn't address the speed at which you can reach lategame tech, but it does make for a much much longer window where econ choices matter (affecting everything else in turn).
What has a longer window where econ choices matter than what? I'm not sure the systems your comparing or what you mean by "fast economies without FRB".
Sorry that wasn't stated very clearly in an attempt at brevity. What I meant is, DH9 and DH10 have a boosted early income (compared to HotS) which could be compared to 12 worker start, although it's not exactly the same. Without a FRB component, there is no abnormal imperative to expand, and in fact they deliver a better (though small) return for 24+ workers compared to HotS/LotV/etc (which is zero). However, for basically the entirety of the game there is incentive to expand as much as possible, even to 4+ mining bases. So while the possibility for turbo macro that dwf hates remains, at least there is no 3base cap locking players into a set game approach. The option to use extra base locations for econ advantage augments the imperative to tech up, providing a lot more inflection points for strategic choices. This is the extended window I'm referring to.
On May 14 2015 15:44 frostalgia wrote: This is why I have another idea I would like to put up for debate: 6 patches per base with 1500 minerals in all patches. It's more visually obvious (also less confusing to the majority of players) and a more expansion-favorable direction than the current one.
That has been suggested by Barrin as well in the past (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-maps/335302-mod-frb) I think it should be up to map makers to decide if they want 6, 7 or 8 patches in a base. More diversity between bases please! There is no grand-thuth-standard. Standard is only what we (or Blizzard) make it be. If all 6/7/8-mineral patch bases were called "Standard" we would see more of them in the maps.
Moreover, you don't need LotV to make it so. HotS maps could be made as such as well!
Apparently you assumed I was suggesting the same economy model as Barrin, to which you'd be mistaken. His idea wanted 4 minerals returned instead of 5 by all workers.
If you read my post, I said 6 patches per base, with the intention of saturating each base faster. Each patch would still have 1500 minerals, and each worker would mine 5 minerals per trip. This is not very confusing, visually obvious to all players whether they're reading patch notes or not, and should create a desired effect to keep expanding unlike the current model.
Saturating at 12 workers per base instead of 16 means 4 less workers per base. That means a lower income, and should create an urge to expand for most players. Terran will have the ability to expand less fast if they desire thanks to MULEs, but that has always been their thing and would be more of an asymmetry than imbalance. I would be fine with that, it would create an interesting dynamic in many matchups.
You are absolutely right, frostalgia. I mixed stuff up. There was a suggestion flying around to have 7 or 6 mineral patches per base, and 1 gas.... but that was a different suggestion than the one I linked to.
On May 15 2015 16:24 BlackLilium wrote: You are absolutely right, frostalgia. I mixed stuff up. There was a suggestion flying around to have 7 or 6 mineral patches per base, and 1 gas.... but that was a different suggestion than the one I linked to.
I can see your point with that model, BlackLilium.
However, keep in mind much has changed since the WoL days when that model was brought up. With more aggressive strategies and larger maps, I would love to see a 6-patch/2-gas model tried again in a mod.
I am not saying it wouldn't need to be worked on, as the amount of minerals could be increased or decreased per patch if needed. However, I don't even think that is necessary. The point of this model is that fully saturating faster means you will need to expand faster (even beyond 3 bases) if you want to keep up. I would love to see it tried first in LotV, and then tweaked if needed. I honestly believe it would create a lot more exciting games than almost all of the other models currently being considered.
On April 27 2015 15:38 ZenithM wrote: After playing myself and watching PartinG vs Scarlett, I'm actually starting to get convinced that Blizzard is in the right and the community is not doing what it thinks it's doing.
If you think about it, Blizzard IS actually shaking things up way more than the DH thing with the LotV model: adding a sense of urgency in expanding, constant aggression moving at different locations on the map, battling for expands with way less resources... It doesn't really create strategy per se, but I'm not sure anything will at that point in SC2, but it's a change from HotS at least (in a good way as far as I'm concerned). What DH does is address a hypothetical case of one player being able to easily expand against a turtling opponent and being rewarded for doing so: it actually doesn't create either conflict or strategy, I'm guessing that in a stable metagame, there will always be some fixed way a matchup is economically played out and one race has to expand a fixed number of times (possibly more than the other). The game will be balanced around that and that's it, nothing indicates that this will create more interesting situations.
LotV's economy has its obvious flaws: tech timings and costs are outdated in the new 12-starting-worker game (this can obviously be fine-tuned), and the difference between full base and half mined out base is too steep. I would actually like to see bases where mineral patches have something like 100%, 100%, 100%, 90%, 80, 70, 60, 50% of their original load, for a smoother transition. But overall I think it's worth testing imo, about as much as DH is, and the community didn't give it even a chance because it hurt their feelings, essentially ("boohoo, I feel like I'm being punished instead of rewarded", bleh, what a drag). I'm glad they didn't give in immediately to a misguided elite's demand, and that more people get to test it out soon as beta invites are sent.
Very much my thought I had even before this experiment took place. While I am glad that people actually experiment with the idea, but the DH economy discussion was totally oblivious of other important stuff, such as maps and defending new bases. There is a reason why 2 base all-in has been the most popular strat throughout SC2's lifespan - it's because ALL maps come with free naturals. Even today, maps are often controversial for the access to the 3rd bases for reasons that have nothing to do with mining efficiency.
By the way I do not understand why the mineral patches should have different values instead of reducing the amount of total minerals evenly to all patches? Instead of 100/50, why not 75 all around to make things simpler? Things like 100 mineral patches, 50 mineral patches, etc. will introduce randomness, and will make mapmaking more difficult.
Edit: Nevermind. I guess 100/50 introduces inefficiency in earlier point in time and more importantly gives a better visual cues as to drying mineral patches.
On April 27 2015 15:38 ZenithM wrote: After playing myself and watching PartinG vs Scarlett, I'm actually starting to get convinced that Blizzard is in the right and the community is not doing what it thinks it's doing.
If you think about it, Blizzard IS actually shaking things up way more than the DH thing with the LotV model: adding a sense of urgency in expanding, constant aggression moving at different locations on the map, battling for expands with way less resources... It doesn't really create strategy per se, but I'm not sure anything will at that point in SC2, but it's a change from HotS at least (in a good way as far as I'm concerned). What DH does is address a hypothetical case of one player being able to easily expand against a turtling opponent and being rewarded for doing so: it actually doesn't create either conflict or strategy, I'm guessing that in a stable metagame, there will always be some fixed way a matchup is economically played out and one race has to expand a fixed number of times (possibly more than the other). The game will be balanced around that and that's it, nothing indicates that this will create more interesting situations.
LotV's economy has its obvious flaws: tech timings and costs are outdated in the new 12-starting-worker game (this can obviously be fine-tuned), and the difference between full base and half mined out base is too steep. I would actually like to see bases where mineral patches have something like 100%, 100%, 100%, 90%, 80, 70, 60, 50% of their original load, for a smoother transition. But overall I think it's worth testing imo, about as much as DH is, and the community didn't give it even a chance because it hurt their feelings, essentially ("boohoo, I feel like I'm being punished instead of rewarded", bleh, what a drag). I'm glad they didn't give in immediately to a misguided elite's demand, and that more people get to test it out soon as beta invites are sent.
Very much my thought I had even before this experiment took place. While I am glad that people actually experiment with the idea, but the DH economy discussion was totally oblivious of other important stuff, such as maps and defending new bases. There is a reason why 2 base all-in has been the most popular strat throughout SC2's lifespan - it's because ALL maps come with free naturals. Even today, maps are often controversial for the access to the 3rd bases for reasons that have nothing to do with mining efficiency.
There's not much a need to argue with you here since this movement is all but dead due to Blizzard's response to it, BUT at the same time, I want to make sure we're all on the same page.
First of all, DH was designed to break worker pairing and make it so that earlier and greater expansions actually paid off better compared to HotS. In particular, that means discouraging only 3-base play and breaking the mechanism that has allowed turtling to get out of hand (that is, allowing a player to sit on 3-bases max and still have equal income and equal or greater army supply to an opponent who has 6 bases). The goal of DH was not to shake up the metagame significantly or make a not-HotS model; in fact, we saw this as a an improved HotS model that could still be adjusted further for more effect. Ultimately, our hope was that a combination of DH + FRB (Fewer Resources per Base, down to about 1000-1100 per patch) would solve not only the issues in HotS, but also prevent the game from becoming completely unstable like it is in LotV. Worker counts are completely irrelevant to the models themselves and only serve to change the first few minutes of the game.
LotV is very much not Starcraft. Things are still being figured out and everything, but the game is no longer about securing expansions, building bases, and overrunning your opponent with units and is no more about microing super intensively and winning lots of small, scrappy skirmishes until one player runs out of money. Our goal with DH was to return to the roots of good RTS/Starcraft design and allow for mass expanding and macro play, but Blizzard's goal with LotV is to move forward into something else. This is probably the biggest reason for Blizzard's refusal to test the model, and I personally will miss Starcraft as we knew it.
EDIT: Also, 2-base all-ins becoming largely a standard has a lot to do with the fact that 4 bases has almost no mineral advantage over 3. In other words, particular races or compositions that got to 3 bases couldn't be outmacroed with 4 bases, and thus 2-base all-ins were necessary to prevent that. It's also very closely related to hyper development due to macro mechanics, but that is obviously something Blizzard is not willing to budge on despite numerous pleas. All maps in a macro RTS should come with "natural" expansions that are easy to secure for the reasons I mentioned above.
On May 15 2015 16:24 BlackLilium wrote: You are absolutely right, frostalgia. I mixed stuff up. There was a suggestion flying around to have 7 or 6 mineral patches per base, and 1 gas.... but that was a different suggestion than the one I linked to.
I can see your point with that model, BlackLilium.
However, keep in mind much has changed since the WoL days when that model was brought up. With more aggressive strategies and larger maps, I would love to see a 6-patch/2-gas model tried again in a mod.
I am not saying it wouldn't need to be worked on, as the amount of minerals could be increased or decreased per patch if needed. However, I don't even think that is necessary. The point of this model is that fully saturating faster means you will need to expand faster (even beyond 3 bases) if you want to keep up. I would love to see it tried first in LotV, and then tweaked if needed. I honestly believe it would create a lot more exciting games than almost all of the other models currently being considered.
What it means is that expanding is a proportionally even larger investment than before. Considering opportunity costs it is even beyond just the ~33% increased town hall cost.
[edit] While I agree that it'd be interesting to test 6m/2g FRB in a LotV environment, I still don't see why it's better than 100/60 FRB etc. It inherently disturbs mineral/gas income ratios, which is a big problem. It offers the same income reduction without the player's flexibility to distribute workers to more bases for improved income. Pound for pound it seems like a bigger change without as many benefits. Help?
On May 15 2015 16:24 BlackLilium wrote: You are absolutely right, frostalgia. I mixed stuff up. There was a suggestion flying around to have 7 or 6 mineral patches per base, and 1 gas.... but that was a different suggestion than the one I linked to.
I can see your point with that model, BlackLilium.
However, keep in mind much has changed since the WoL days when that model was brought up. With more aggressive strategies and larger maps, I would love to see a 6-patch/2-gas model tried again in a mod.
I am not saying it wouldn't need to be worked on, as the amount of minerals could be increased or decreased per patch if needed. However, I don't even think that is necessary. The point of this model is that fully saturating faster means you will need to expand faster (even beyond 3 bases) if you want to keep up. I would love to see it tried first in LotV, and then tweaked if needed. I honestly believe it would create a lot more exciting games than almost all of the other models currently being considered.
What it means is that expanding is a proportionally even larger investment than before. Considering opportunity costs it is even beyond just the ~33% increased town hall cost.
[edit] While I agree that it'd be interesting to test 6m/2g FRB in a LotV environment, I still don't see why it's better than 100/60 FRB etc. It inherently disturbs mineral/gas income ratios, which is a big problem. It offers the same income reduction without the player's flexibility to distribute workers to more bases for improved income. Pound for pound it seems like a bigger change without as many benefits. Help?
Exactly.. it changes the amount of mineral income once a base is fully saturated. Next time you play a game, notice how many minerals you have compared to gas in mid/late game. Now consider the effect if you had a few less minerals of income once you fully saturate a base. You will have to spend all those minerals wiser, but you most likely will have a more even ratio of minerals/gas instead of floating minerals until you think of something to spend them on. And once you do mine those bases out, you'll still end up with the same amount of resources in your bank. It will just take a little longer to get there.
Taking bases in mid/late game would be a bigger investment due to the decreased income, to be sure. That's mostly something that can be ironed out after testing, but I believe that taking an expansion can be a risky investment.. it just means players have to focus more on defending them.
How does the 100/60 FRB model spread out the battlefield, like blizzard says they intended it to do? Does it really create more multiprong attacks and multiple battles? Bases mine faster, which means you move to the next base quicker than before.. then you have no need to defend the hollow base left behind (except your main).
With requiring 22 harvesters per base for full saturation (including gas), it's still rarely ideal to have more than 3 bases of income. You have to sacrifice army in your supply cap to do so. With a total of 18 harvesters instead, you can decide to go for a better income on more bases, or a bigger army. Consider the options it presents, and ask yourself if you wouldn't at least like to try it over the current method.
On May 13 2015 04:25 Big J wrote: I don't think they want to do any of this. All their messages aim towards shorter games. Neither a scaling economy model, nor a higher supply cap provide that. Only killing the players unable to move out does that.
This is a big part of why we're trying to advocate for DH + LotV ideas. We think that a scaling model is really important to distinguish income between players depending on map control and bases, but if Blizzard wants to move games along faster, an overall reduction in minerals per base also keeps the game moving along at a quick pace similar to LotV.
In lotv it seems like you really do have to take bases before you actually need them, especially your fourth and fifth, because your natural mines out to half patches pretty quickly after your main. So if you don't pre-expand you have this weird period where you go back to essentially a 2 base mineral income after being on a three base income or stay on three base income as your fourth becomes active. That makes it pretty difficult to, say, break a contain or pressure bases while expanding.
I think the logical next step is to remove worker pairing somehow so that you can actually benefit from the risk you're required to take.
That being said, if you do keep up with expansions the pace is ridiculously fun. I'd personally like a "both and" model.
Hi, what is the current status of this mod? Is there any work on another iteration, or has it been for all intents and purposes been put to death by Blizzard? I've played this mod quite a bit, and now that I have finally gotten LOTV I've had a chance to compare both models.
I quoted the above post because it captures the biggest problem that I have with Blizzard's current economy model. This sudden dropoff in economy seems to happen every game, and I'm not a big fan of it. As a Zerg, I have to take more bases to MAINTAIN my current income level...not INCREASE it like I want to. Rather than add expansions at a linear rate, one after the other, I have to quickly snag both a 4th and a 5th so that I can ensure my income does not drop by HALF. And if I am pressured and unable to do so, the results are devastating. I can't keep up steam, especially not with the swarm styles I am a fan of playing. This isn't very fun, and it results in a huge bank of gas. Blizzard's economy model isn't very appealing or intuitive from an aesthetic viewpoint either.
So in those regards, I like what the TL econ model is attempting to do. It is intuitive, it is aesthetically pleasing, and it doesn't modify the appearance of the econ system we've had for years.
But I also feel that what it is attempting to promote (spreading 66 workers out on 4+ bases rather than 3 for an increase in income and rewarding more bases) isn't done in a way that I can really FEEL. The income disparity isn't drastic enough, and that keeps the model from getting its point across.
I think the benefit of spreading the same amount of workers across more bases really needs to be made more apparent.
I am a fan of the 12 worker start, though I think it eliminates a lot of potential for 1 base builds. Maybe 8-10 workers instead?
Just wanted to drop my thoughts here, since the current economy system is as of right now my biggest gripe with LOTV. Loving all the other Zerg changes so far.
Does the Double Harvest mod merely change the mining duration, amount, (and add in the basket mechanic)? Or are there other changes? Specifically, are there any changes to Worker AI, or are these data really just the result of change to duration and amount, keeping the same AI?
On June 16 2015 16:14 AmicusVenti wrote: Does the Double Harvest mod merely change the mining duration, amount, (and add in the basket mechanic)? Or are there other changes? Specifically, are there any changes to Worker AI, or are these data really just the result of change to duration and amount, keeping the same AI?
There is no change in AI apart from the harvesting occuring twice (or 3 times in DH 3x3). In particular, DH does not bounce workers as it is done for example in Starbow. Thanks to that, harvesting is much more predictable. There is some trigger code to handle that double harvesting though.
Hopefully, DH should be easy to integrate if someone wants to use it in some other mod.
On April 12 2015 06:37 KrazyTrumpet wrote: This is an amazingly researched and written article. This is how you get a point across, with plain language, hard numbers, and sound reasoning. (I hope TheDWF takes notes from this!)
After reading the ENTIRE article, I'm convinced the Double Harvest method is worth trying. As a player who enjoys playing a slower and more defensive style, I'm just not a huge fan of the current LotV model. I would really love if we can get all this in Blizzard's hands and ask them to seriously consider it.
On April 12 2015 06:31 Killmouse wrote: hope blizzard will read that, amazing work by u guys!
Blizzard might read it, but they will never consider putting it into the game, I bet you.
What an extremely shitty and negative attitude. Blizzard is showing now more than EVER that they are willing to make huge changes to make SC2 great. Comments like this are useless and do nothing but showcase your own bitterness.
I agree with him. We have shown them countless examples before and have done very little in the past heck they even misinterpreted things we told them. Whether it be pro players, high people in the community, etc.
Perhaps there are too many people in the kitchen at Blizzard or maybe it's just stubbornness from the top. I don't know what it is-- as I don't work for them. Who knows? Whatever it is it isn't working and when they said they wouldn't rush shit they do it. Case in point Battle.Net 2.0 so excuse some of us for being a little bitter.
I also find it shocking 46% (actually I take that back, I shouldn't be surprised 46% of people are happy with the status quo with regards to battles/skirmishes in the game not going longer). Not to say there aren't more variables in the decline of viewership. I'm a firm believer if battles were drawn out a bit longer you would give players more opportunities to comeback rather than having a game over in 10 seconds over one big battle. We've experienced more than enough to know it holds ground, but what do we know. We've just played their games for 17+ years. I sure as hell am not a programmer or a developer. I have played RTS games for almost half my life and I've seen all kinds of shit. I understand Blizzard is always trying to reinvent the wheel with their games. If they think this is going to capture people's attention. It will fall flat. In fact, at this point I think it's already a tad bit too late to have any real resurgence with this game. Sure players will come back to play it competitive and people will pick it up for a short time. I doubt it will have any staying power and will whither away just like it is now.
In other words, I think Blizzard is just wasting their time on this project and in their eye's they're just doing the RTS community a nice gesture.
On June 16 2015 12:09 Qwyn wrote: But I also feel that what it is attempting to promote (spreading 66 workers out on 4+ bases rather than 3 for an increase in income and rewarding more bases) isn't done in a way that I can really FEEL. The income disparity isn't drastic enough, and that keeps the model from getting its point across.
At a high level of play, players start to feel the difference. Notice for example the most recent showmatch (RuFF vs Scarlett) at Baron_Infinity's channel. They actually thought it might be too strong impact for early game. I don't think they are right - they are used to HotS timings, and anything off can throw their game totally off-balance. On the other hand - with all respect to you - there are bigger factors than DH at lower level of play, making the changes rather insignificant. Currently, I think the DH is close to were we want it to be. Fine tuning may be required, but that requires more games.
On June 16 2015 16:14 AmicusVenti wrote: Does the Double Harvest mod merely change the mining duration, amount, (and add in the basket mechanic)? Or are there other changes? Specifically, are there any changes to Worker AI, or are these data really just the result of change to duration and amount, keeping the same AI?
There is no change in AI apart from the harvesting occuring twice (or 3 times in DH 3x3). In particular, DH does not bounce workers as it is done for example in Starbow. Thanks to that, harvesting is much more predictable. There is some trigger code to handle that double harvesting though.
Hopefully, DH should be easy to integrate if someone wants to use it in some other mod.
So the only trigger work required is for the twice-harvesting? In other words, is it correct to say Double Mining (the first proposed model in the article) doesn't require any trigger work at all? If so, how interesting! That would make it pretty easy.
On June 17 2015 02:26 AmicusVenti wrote: So the only trigger work required is for the twice-harvesting? In other words, is it correct to say Double Mining (the first proposed model in the article) doesn't require any trigger work at all? If so, how interesting! That would make it pretty easy.
To my knowledge, Double Mining does not require triggers at all, unless you think about Double Mining with bouncing (like Starbow). However, the plain DM puts a hard cap on 16 workers, which is not desirable.
On June 16 2015 12:09 Qwyn wrote: But I also feel that what it is attempting to promote (spreading 66 workers out on 4+ bases rather than 3 for an increase in income and rewarding more bases) isn't done in a way that I can really FEEL. The income disparity isn't drastic enough, and that keeps the model from getting its point across.
At a high level of play, players start to feel the difference. Notice for example the most recent showmatch (RuFF vs Scarlett) at Baron_Infinity's channel. They actually thought it might be too strong impact for early game. I don't think they are right - they are used to HotS timings, and anything off can throw their game totally off-balance. On the other hand - with all respect to you - there are bigger factors than DH at lower level of play, making the changes rather insignificant. Currently, I think the DH is close to were we want it to be. Fine tuning may be required, but that requires more games.
I'd like to consider myself a decent enough player to know and "feel" the difference in economy xO. I've been looking around all over the place. What is the most current version of the DH mod? is it DH 3x3 still?
LotV is very much not Starcraft. Things are still being figured out and everything, but the game is no longer about securing expansions, building bases, and overrunning your opponent with units
I'm of the opinion that SC2 was never really about that either. The expansion pattern was becoming very stale, no thought was actually put into it by either player, game after game.
microing super intensively and winning lots of small, scrappy skirmishes until one player runs out of money
That sounds like fun. I even doubt they can manage that, but I'll take it heartily if they do. I understand that most of you want a super strategic game, I respect that, but Starcraft 2 wasn't bound to be that from the get go it seems.
The worst that can happen now is if LotV's eventually stable metagame is even more boring that HotS'.
Edit: I would be glad if Blizzard tested DH for a few weeks or months of beta, don't get me wrong. I just think that it at least has to be paired up with LotV's system to be truly interesting. Simply put on top of HotS, that system is not worth the trouble.
On April 12 2015 06:31 Killmouse wrote: hope blizzard will read that, amazing work by u guys!
Blizzard might read it, but they will never consider putting it into the game, I bet you.
What an extremely shitty and negative attitude. Blizzard is showing now more than EVER that they are willing to make huge changes to make SC2 great. Comments like this are useless and do nothing but showcase your own bitterness.
On May 20 2015 01:54 SC2John wrote: There's not much a need to argue with you here since this movement is all but dead due to Blizzard's response to it,
It must really suck when the person with the terrible attitude is right the whole time. Being right matters in life, you should probably re-evaluate how you judge Blizzard now.
I think you owe him an apology.
Anyway, I hope the TL Strategy Team will consider developing their own game now. When you can't join em, beat em.
On June 17 2015 02:26 AmicusVenti wrote: So the only trigger work required is for the twice-harvesting? In other words, is it correct to say Double Mining (the first proposed model in the article) doesn't require any trigger work at all? If so, how interesting! That would make it pretty easy.
To my knowledge, Double Mining does not require triggers at all, unless you think about Double Mining with bouncing (like Starbow). However, the plain DM puts a hard cap on 16 workers, which is not desirable.
Now I'm confused. I thought that in terms of AI and worker bouncing, DH and DM were the same. The difference was only that DH alleviated Artosis' complaint that pulling workers was too damaging. Why does DM have a 16 worker cap and DH not?
On June 17 2015 15:31 AmicusVenti wrote: Now I'm confused. I thought that in terms of AI and worker bouncing, DH and DM were the same. The difference was only that DH alleviated Artosis' complaint that pulling workers was too damaging. Why does DM have a 16 worker cap and DH not?
Artosis' complain was not the reason why I developped DH. In fact I was not aware of it.
In Double Mining you increase harvest time and harvest amount. As a result, a single mineral patch is occupied by a single worker for - let's say - 60% of time. This way, if you add a second worker trying to take another 60% of the time, the first one will have to wait for the second to complete its task. 20% of the time is wasted (reduced efficiency), and a mineral patch is occupied 100% of the time, so nothing more can be taken from it.
In Double Harvest a single mineral patch is occupied by a single worker for 60% of the time, but there are gaps between harvests. This way, with 2 workers at the patch mining similarly to DM model, there are still gaps that can be exploited by a 3rd worker. As a result, with the 3rd worker you can still squeeze more from the mineral patch (at about 30% efficiency, but still). Even 4th worker contributes a bit (~10% efficiency) because there are still some mining gaps.
Anyway, I hope the TL Strategy Team will consider developing their own game now. When you can't join em, beat em.
I am actually considering creating my own "SC2-Improved" mod, with DH model, tweaked units and costs, but without those big changes that are present in other mods with similar goals (Starbow, CustomCraft, OneGoal etc...). It should still be HotS... just better
On June 17 2015 17:23 BlackLilium wrote: I am actually considering creating my own "SC2-Improved" mod, with DH model, tweaked units and costs, but without those big changes that are present in other mods with similar goals (Starbow, CustomCraft, OneGoal etc...). It should still be HotS... just better
Work together with me, I would embrace it. All I want is for SC2 to become more popular and arguably better.
On June 17 2015 17:23 BlackLilium wrote: I am actually considering creating my own "SC2-Improved" mod, with DH model, tweaked units and costs, but without those big changes that are present in other mods with similar goals (Starbow, CustomCraft, OneGoal etc...). It should still be HotS... just better
I've been thinking about doing exactly the same thing too once I finish my WC3 map. Maybe we should work together.
Clearly there is a need for a better SC2 (Starbow tries to be a better BW, which is a different thing).
On June 17 2015 17:23 BlackLilium wrote: I am actually considering creating my own "SC2-Improved" mod, with DH model, tweaked units and costs, but without those big changes that are present in other mods with similar goals (Starbow, CustomCraft, OneGoal etc...). It should still be HotS... just better
Work together with me, I would embrace it. All I want is for SC2 to become more popular and arguably better.
CustomCraft tries to re-invent SC2 more than to make it evolve more naturally than it did. I'd like to see us go back to end of Wings and start from there, with three main goals in mind:
#1 Nerf Fungal #2 Make Mech Viable #3 Improve the Viability of Stargate units.
Anyway, I hope the TL Strategy Team will consider developing their own game now. When you can't join em, beat em.
I am actually considering creating my own "SC2-Improved" mod, with DH model, tweaked units and costs, but without those big changes that are present in other mods with similar goals (Starbow, CustomCraft, OneGoal etc...). It should still be HotS... just better
I have to say that I'm really eager to see what you'll come up with !
On June 17 2015 17:23 BlackLilium wrote: I am actually considering creating my own "SC2-Improved" mod, with DH model, tweaked units and costs, but without those big changes that are present in other mods with similar goals (Starbow, CustomCraft, OneGoal etc...). It should still be HotS... just better
Work together with me, I would embrace it. All I want is for SC2 to become more popular and arguably better.
CustomCraft tries to re-invent SC2 more than to make it evolve more naturally than it did. I'd like to see us go back to end of Wings and start from there, with three main goals in mind:
#1 Nerf Fungal #2 Make Mech Viable #3 Improve the Viability of Stargate units.
I am very open about suggestions and changes, I dont have my mind set on many of the changes I did. I would gladly start on a new balance mod with others together. The more people the better it is going to be because testing and reviewing is key when balancing something.
On June 17 2015 17:23 BlackLilium wrote: I am actually considering creating my own "SC2-Improved" mod, with DH model, tweaked units and costs, but without those big changes that are present in other mods with similar goals (Starbow, CustomCraft, OneGoal etc...). It should still be HotS... just better
Work together with me, I would embrace it. All I want is for SC2 to become more popular and arguably better.
CustomCraft tries to re-invent SC2 more than to make it evolve more naturally than it did. I'd like to see us go back to end of Wings and start from there, with three main goals in mind:
#1 Nerf Fungal #2 Make Mech Viable #3 Improve the Viability of Stargate units.
I am very open about suggestions and changes, I dont have my mind set on many of the changes I did. I would gladly start on a new balance mod with others together. The more people the better it is going to be because testing and reviewing is key when balancing something.
I see game design a bit differently.
The most important point is to make good design decisions. It takes a long time to come up with good ideas. Balancing them is the last step, and comes far more naturally when you're working with a good idea.
Things like Vortex, the Warhound, Fungal, ect are not good ideas, so balancing them doesn't come naturally at all.
And while Warpgate could be made a strategic choice (as it is in Customcraft) it doesn't need to be. Just because a choice could exist, doesn't mean it should exist, and people often make that mistake when talking about game design. Warpgate is a neat idea that isn't necessarily unbalanced, and the reason it is an upgrade is to prevent people from 2 gating from their main with a pylon.
Warpgate gives Protoss a good avenue to harass from and created a lot of neat timings for Protoss in WOL. It also made Protoss much different to play and I appreciate that. That said I think there are better ways to make it more of strategic choice.
Anyway, I think Customcraft has some good ideas in it but changes too much too quickly.
As I said, I am open to going back on several of the changes. I am really looking forward on working more seriously on a mod with a team. Until now, I was just fooling around all by myself. I made the changes I made because I knew not too many people are going to test it out anyways (I am an unknown nobody in the community, with no backup) so I could just try things out. But with a team and some community backup and test data we could go a very methodical, thought out approach and analyse things in greater detail.
On June 17 2015 17:23 BlackLilium wrote: I am actually considering creating my own "SC2-Improved" mod, with DH model, tweaked units and costs, but without those big changes that are present in other mods with similar goals (Starbow, CustomCraft, OneGoal etc...). It should still be HotS... just better
I've been thinking about doing exactly the same thing too once I finish my WC3 map. Maybe we should work together.
Clearly there is a need for a better SC2 (Starbow tries to be a better BW, which is a different thing).
On June 17 2015 17:23 BlackLilium wrote: I am actually considering creating my own "SC2-Improved" mod, with DH model, tweaked units and costs, but without those big changes that are present in other mods with similar goals (Starbow, CustomCraft, OneGoal etc...). It should still be HotS... just better
Work together with me, I would embrace it. All I want is for SC2 to become more popular and arguably better.
CustomCraft tries to re-invent SC2 more than to make it evolve more naturally than it did. I'd like to see us go back to end of Wings and start from there, with three main goals in mind:
#1 Nerf Fungal #2 Make Mech Viable #3 Improve the Viability of Stargate units.
I think everyone will be happy to get rid of the boring and un-zergy infestor-BL combo from end of WoL. Question is what you will replace it with, to deal with collosus-based deathballs or mech, both of which you want to buff. I think the viper was a great solution to that, allowing zerg to have a zergy army (fast melee or short range) that can deal with death balls through blinding cloud and to some extent abduct. Blinding cloud also being good for punishing dense deathballs and encourages counter-micro etc. So I think some kind of viper/defiler could be a good ingredient.
On June 17 2015 17:23 BlackLilium wrote: I am actually considering creating my own "SC2-Improved" mod, with DH model, tweaked units and costs, but without those big changes that are present in other mods with similar goals (Starbow, CustomCraft, OneGoal etc...). It should still be HotS... just better
I've been thinking about doing exactly the same thing too once I finish my WC3 map. Maybe we should work together.
Clearly there is a need for a better SC2 (Starbow tries to be a better BW, which is a different thing).
On June 17 2015 19:00 RoomOfMush wrote:
On June 17 2015 17:23 BlackLilium wrote: I am actually considering creating my own "SC2-Improved" mod, with DH model, tweaked units and costs, but without those big changes that are present in other mods with similar goals (Starbow, CustomCraft, OneGoal etc...). It should still be HotS... just better
Work together with me, I would embrace it. All I want is for SC2 to become more popular and arguably better.
CustomCraft tries to re-invent SC2 more than to make it evolve more naturally than it did. I'd like to see us go back to end of Wings and start from there, with three main goals in mind:
#1 Nerf Fungal #2 Make Mech Viable #3 Improve the Viability of Stargate units.
I think everyone will be happy to get rid of the boring and un-zergy infestor-BL combo from end of WoL. Question is what you will replace it with, to deal with collosus-based deathballs or mech, both of which you want to buff. I think the viper was a great solution to that, allowing zerg to have a zergy army (fast melee or short range) that can deal with death balls through blinding cloud and to some extent abduct. Blinding cloud also being good for punishing dense deathballs and encourages counter-micro etc. So I think some kind of viper/defiler could be a good ingredient.
Here is the deal with deathballs, they aren't necessarily bad. Tanks sieging and unsieging and leap frogging forward creates interesting dynamics. And, I don't want to buff Colossus based deathballs, I want to make the Colossus into a positional unit by slowing it way down as I mentioned in the my long post. So it's still an A-move unit of sorts, just a really slow one that is easy to counter and difficult to protect. And protecting it becomes the challenge, much like protecting the Guardian in BW or protecting the Siege Tank.
The problem is that A-move deathballs that are mobile. Any mobile A-move deathball (MMM) should be much weaker in a straight up fight than a positional (read slower) composition.
Without the deathball concept of two big armies fighting each other for a position. the game would just be a bunch of harrass-skirmish battles across the map. And the only way for that too work is to make static defense terrible, either by doing what LOTV did by constantly mining out bases, or reduce their stats.
But I don't see a problem with games evolving into both players building build fortresses and then smashing each other with slow moving positional death balls, like the old TvT.
What would have more effect, sending one of the DH guys to Irvine to sit face to face with the devs or 1000$ so they can dedicate time to community activism?
Also, I wish there could be a TLopen on a weekend. I mean the player base is probably all gone again for this mod but the open was at a pretty bad time of day for most of NA.
I am of the opinion that breaking the worker pair will be the most important thing when it comes to the longevity of SC2. In front of me I see a system that achieves that. I've never had a reasonable opportunity to affect sc2 but with the beginning of change happening internally at blizzard this is probably the best opportunity we get to have direct input.
I'd just like to remind everyone/Blizzard that this (with some tweaking/balancing of course) is a far more elegant and interesting solution to many of the problems Starcraft 2 has and the current LotV model forces rushed gameplay that does more to hurt the precious casual players than removing macro mechanics helps.
I'd like to hope that David Kim and the rest of the Blizzard design team take a serious look at this for once and actually try to understand it, because from statements made by Blizzard it has been evident that they do not at all.
With only a few weeks left in the "major design" part of the LotV beta, this is our last chance to get Blizzard to actually try this out instead of blindly dismissing it through ignorance and misunderstanding. If we want LotV to be the best game possible, which it is far from being at this point, then we need to make it known.
Are there examples that demonstrate this economy being a 'far more elegant and interesting solution'? I've heard the rhetoric and I've seen the pseudo-analysis with rough numbers. Next, I would want to see some demonstrations, examples, or concrete evidence.
From what I heard, there were some trials at some point that ended up with unexpected conclusions. Namely, the mid to end game scenarios didn't quite play out drastically different (despite initial expectations) but the early game was behaving in a new and different way. Mind you this was before the macro boosters cut.
On August 24 2015 13:38 mishimaBeef wrote: Are there examples that demonstrate this economy being a 'far more elegant and interesting solution'? I've heard the rhetoric and I've seen the pseudo-analysis with rough numbers. Next, I would want to see some demonstrations, examples, or concrete evidence.
From what I heard, there were some trials at some point that ended up with unexpected conclusions. Namely, the mid to end game scenarios didn't quite play out drastically different (despite initial expectations) but the early game was behaving in a new and different way. Mind you this was before the macro boosters cut.
Drastic difference was never the intention. The early game needed some tweaking, sure, that's what a beta test would be for. But the whole point was to offer greater incentive to expand without forcing it like the current LotV model does and that was somewhat successful, and could be even more so with additional balancing.
The few showmatches that happened weren't far too small of a sample size to determine anything conclusive. Once players have time to figure out the new economy and practice a significant number of games in it I'm sure it will prove to be superior. And what do we have to lose? If this turns out not to be the case, we can always switch back to what we currently have and call it good.
On August 24 2015 13:38 mishimaBeef wrote: Are there examples that demonstrate this economy being a 'far more elegant and interesting solution'? I've heard the rhetoric and I've seen the pseudo-analysis with rough numbers. Next, I would want to see some demonstrations, examples, or concrete evidence.
From what I heard, there were some trials at some point that ended up with unexpected conclusions. Namely, the mid to end game scenarios didn't quite play out drastically different (despite initial expectations) but the early game was behaving in a new and different way. Mind you this was before the macro boosters cut.
This is Scarlett vs Parting double harvest show match. I preferred the Scarlett vs Ruff, but I didn't find it on twitch. Maybe search youtube.
The latter I felt demonstrated the late game effect of the double harvest mod which allowed Scarlett to mass expand in response to a turtle mech terran.
I am a fan of double harvest and don't see why they couldn't included it or just test it with the new LOTV. In fact, with the removal of macro mechanics I have heard the game slows a lot in the beginning stages. Adding DH would actually boost the beginning economy slightly and maybe even restore the fast early game progression to LOTV. People might like that, if that's what actually would happen.
For what it's worth, I agree with setguitarstokill. I like the DH model and would like to see it tried, but it might be too much to experiment with no macro mechanics and DH economy....
Then again it might be the perfect combination... To bad blizzard didn't give this a chance before. Maybe there is still time.
On August 24 2015 13:38 mishimaBeef wrote: Are there examples that demonstrate this economy being a 'far more elegant and interesting solution'? I've heard the rhetoric and I've seen the pseudo-analysis with rough numbers. Next, I would want to see some demonstrations, examples, or concrete evidence.
From what I heard, there were some trials at some point that ended up with unexpected conclusions. Namely, the mid to end game scenarios didn't quite play out drastically different (despite initial expectations) but the early game was behaving in a new and different way. Mind you this was before the macro boosters cut.
This is Scarlett vs Parting double harvest show match. I preferred the Scarlett vs Ruff, but I didn't find it on twitch. Maybe search youtube.
The latter I felt demonstrated the late game effect of the double harvest mod which allowed Scarlett to mass expand in response to a turtle mech terran.
I am a fan of double harvest and don't see why they couldn't included it or just test it with the new LOTV. In fact, with the removal of macro mechanics I have heard the game slows a lot in the beginning stages. Adding DH would actually boost the beginning economy slightly and maybe even restore the fast early game progression to LOTV. People might like that, if that's what actually would happen.
For what it's worth, I agree with setguitarstokill. I like the DH model and would like to see it tried, but it might be too much to experiment with no macro mechanics and DH economy....
Then again it might be the perfect combination... To bad blizzard didn't give this a chance before. Maybe there is still time.
The Scarlett vs Parting showmatch was not the best demonstration, since the skill disparity between the two players was massive. Scarlett expanding more didn't make up for Parting simply being a better player. But that's actually kind of how it should be. DH would add an extra option on how to play, especially useful against turtling players, not become the core of the game and force faster expansion.
Sadly, with the recent community feed back update, it seems like Blizzard has completely laid to rest the idea of even trying it.
"-Reducing the number of workers per base so that army sizes become bigger
When trying out this change, we determined that reducing the workers needed per base isn’t good for the game because many of the coolest moments in StarCraft II come from worker harassment. With fewer workers, it was just too easy to rebuild after taking economic damage, making these moments less meaningful.
We also looked into feedback suggesting we reduce the efficiency of workers when more than 1 is mining at a single mineral patch. This was aimed at making expanding result in a higher income more often than not, even when on an equal worker count. What we found is that expanding quickly and often already feels like a big advantage in Void, so this change does not feel all that different in terms of when you want to expand. Also, when you do expand faster and have your workers more spread out, it’s easier to replenish workers that you’ve lost to harassment. As we stated above, this is the opposite of what we’re looking to accomplish with the economy changes."
From what they said above, they completely missed the point and seem to think that the DH model is made to have bigger armies or harass or something stupid like that. It's a copout that literally makes no sense.
DH showed that with a decreased efficiency it not only encourages expanding, but also promotes cutting worker production for stronger aggression (which is not an all-in). Consequently you have fights early game and fights late game. However, you need to prepare for that: e.g. going greedy fast expansion without scouting is that much more risky.
Players need to adapt for that. On the other hand, game needs some rebalancing as well (something I am trying to do as well, but it is a long process)
On June 17 2015 17:23 BlackLilium wrote: I am actually considering creating my own "SC2-Improved" mod, with DH model, tweaked units and costs, but without those big changes that are present in other mods with similar goals (Starbow, CustomCraft, OneGoal etc...). It should still be HotS... just better
I've been thinking about doing exactly the same thing too once I finish my WC3 map. Maybe we should work together.
Clearly there is a need for a better SC2 (Starbow tries to be a better BW, which is a different thing).
On June 17 2015 19:00 RoomOfMush wrote:
On June 17 2015 17:23 BlackLilium wrote: I am actually considering creating my own "SC2-Improved" mod, with DH model, tweaked units and costs, but without those big changes that are present in other mods with similar goals (Starbow, CustomCraft, OneGoal etc...). It should still be HotS... just better
Work together with me, I would embrace it. All I want is for SC2 to become more popular and arguably better.
CustomCraft tries to re-invent SC2 more than to make it evolve more naturally than it did. I'd like to see us go back to end of Wings and start from there, with three main goals in mind:
#1 Nerf Fungal #2 Make Mech Viable #3 Improve the Viability of Stargate units.
I think everyone will be happy to get rid of the boring and un-zergy infestor-BL combo from end of WoL. Question is what you will replace it with, to deal with collosus-based deathballs or mech, both of which you want to buff. I think the viper was a great solution to that, allowing zerg to have a zergy army (fast melee or short range) that can deal with death balls through blinding cloud and to some extent abduct. Blinding cloud also being good for punishing dense deathballs and encourages counter-micro etc. So I think some kind of viper/defiler could be a good ingredient.
I suggest instead of abduct (which looks weird because it violates physics or something), neural parasite should be buffed until it is usable.
Not only would neural parasite be more natural, it would also be cool to watch, and cool to play. There's no better feeling than taking control of half a battlecruiser fleet.
On June 17 2015 17:23 BlackLilium wrote: I am actually considering creating my own "SC2-Improved" mod, with DH model, tweaked units and costs, but without those big changes that are present in other mods with similar goals (Starbow, CustomCraft, OneGoal etc...). It should still be HotS... just better
I've been thinking about doing exactly the same thing too once I finish my WC3 map. Maybe we should work together.
Clearly there is a need for a better SC2 (Starbow tries to be a better BW, which is a different thing).
On June 17 2015 19:00 RoomOfMush wrote:
On June 17 2015 17:23 BlackLilium wrote: I am actually considering creating my own "SC2-Improved" mod, with DH model, tweaked units and costs, but without those big changes that are present in other mods with similar goals (Starbow, CustomCraft, OneGoal etc...). It should still be HotS... just better
Work together with me, I would embrace it. All I want is for SC2 to become more popular and arguably better.
CustomCraft tries to re-invent SC2 more than to make it evolve more naturally than it did. I'd like to see us go back to end of Wings and start from there, with three main goals in mind:
#1 Nerf Fungal #2 Make Mech Viable #3 Improve the Viability of Stargate units.
I think everyone will be happy to get rid of the boring and un-zergy infestor-BL combo from end of WoL. Question is what you will replace it with, to deal with collosus-based deathballs or mech, both of which you want to buff. I think the viper was a great solution to that, allowing zerg to have a zergy army (fast melee or short range) that can deal with death balls through blinding cloud and to some extent abduct. Blinding cloud also being good for punishing dense deathballs and encourages counter-micro etc. So I think some kind of viper/defiler could be a good ingredient.
I suggest instead of abduct (which looks weird because it violates physics or something), neural parasite should be buffed until it is usable.
Not only would neural parasite be more natural, it would also be cool to watch, and cool to play. There's no better feeling than taking control of half a battlecruiser fleet.
Viper abduct is offensive to me every time I see it. It's "silly" looking and doesn't feel like starcraft. I hate it so much that I'm a zerg player and I won't even use the spell.
On August 25 2015 17:03 phantomfive wrote: I suggest instead of abduct (which looks weird because it violates physics or something), neural parasite should be buffed until it is usable.
That's in the plans in my mod. But only after grand-scale changes and balancing is complete.
This probably means workers need to have double build time, mineral cost, supply cost and health buff considering how painful it would be to lose even a single worker... Even worker damage might be needed to keep up with rushes... and SCV repair strength... also...
Without the buffs and nerfs above, Worker Harrass would be so much stronger even in the early game as losing 1 means losing 2. If the build time is left unchanged, worker harrass would be too weak because workers are replaced much faster. Supply cost increase may be not necessary though but it is something that needs to be put in consideration. Doubling the health of workers mean they have double the health of Zerglings making Zergling run by a lot weaker as workers can now actually hold themselves against zerglings. Even marines would have a harder time killing them while also freeing up more surround space for more workers to attack a single unit for double the damage. Though their damage can be nerfed with balance, but it would be a big nerf against cannon rushes if the workers can no longer shut down a building pylon with 4 Hots Workers [2 workers in the new change]. workers generally gets so much stronger offensively but weaker defensively against some harassment units while stronger against others. This makes harassing harder as workers taking longer to kill, gives the defending player more time to reinforce while the workers are also powerful enough to hold off basic harrassments. This quality alone makes Reapers so much weaker as a harrassment unit and would ultimately fall to a just for scouting unit. Adepts would still work but their harrassing strength once again would fall off heavily. Almost all early game harrassing units gets so much weaker that the thing they would be best at would be disrupting mining for a short time unless the defending player is not paying attention and lose 2 HOTS workers.
The Zerg would now lost 2 HOTS drones for every building and Terran now stops 2 HOTS SCVs to build a single building while Protoss suffers none of those while at the same time, they have Chronoboost to speed up worker production. Early Game Economy Favors Protoss so much while late game Favors Zerg. Terran Mules will turn into a band-aid that needs to be stronger for terran to keep up... Terran might even need to spawn with Orbital command with this change...
There are several problems to this suggestion and I hope to know your thoughts~