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On April 07 2015 22:06 The_Red_Viper wrote:Sry but i don't see the point of this at all. Your idea seems to be to get a nydus which almost always gets out a handfull of units, the problem i see with this is that as zerg i usually need more than 3-5 units in the enemy base to actually do dmg. Don't like this idea 
I wish I could just make 10 Roaches and snipe Nexus with it before they die like Protoss are doing with Zealots and sniping Hatcheries. Outside of Mutas and now new Swarm Hosts Zerg has pathetic harassment. New Roaches are great but they are more of the pain in the ass to deal with than doing incredible damage like 7-8 Marines can do to your worker line... or Hellions, or Widow Mines, or Zealots, or Dark Templars, or Disruptors, or Oracle, or Banshee or...
In these games where you see Zerg doing incredible damage with Lings and Banelings are mostly games where opponent doesn't react at all and let 50 lings run-by and go straight into his base. I've seen plenty of games where Protoss warp in Zealots and snipe buildings even when you have part of your army there with Spines and Queens. Or when Terran drops 2 Medivacs full of units and makes a massacre in your base if you don't bring a fuckton of Lings, Banes and Mutas.
If Zerg wants to harass with his units, he really needs to commit to it with gas.
The point of this change that it will be closer to the Zerg drops, he said already that numbers can be tweaked and that they shouldn't be a problem. Zerg drops are close to useless right now anyway considering how slow Overlords are and how fast all other units are in the game.
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On April 07 2015 22:14 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2015 22:06 The_Red_Viper wrote:Sry but i don't see the point of this at all. Your idea seems to be to get a nydus which almost always gets out a handfull of units, the problem i see with this is that as zerg i usually need more than 3-5 units in the enemy base to actually do dmg. Don't like this idea And thats where Infestors, Lurkers and Ravagers come in. Units that actually can do stuff in fewer numbers. If you ever tried a Lurker drop, I think you would be on board ^^.
We don't even know how good lurkers are in sc2 yet 
Still, i would much rather see blizzard trying to make overlord drops more viable tbh.
I also don't think that Ravagers are great in low numbers.
What i also don't like about that idea is that zerg has no way to get the units back when you see that you will lose them without doing much dmg.
In general i see where you are coming from with your ideas, but this doesn't feel all that great imo.
I completely agree that the current LOTV nydus is meh though^^
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We don't even know how good lurkers are in sc2 yet
Still, i would much rather see blizzard trying to make overlord drops more viable tbh.
I agree with overlord drops, and it really surprises me (knowing DKs preferences) that there has been no buff here. I think they are well-designed and can easily be made viable through simple number tweaks.
What i also don't like about that idea is that zerg has no way to get the units back when you see that you will lose them without doing much dmg.
I think you imagine situations where the enemy army always is very close to the Nydus. That was indeed the case with the 20-second BT. But the BT is 3 seconds here and you decide where to build the Nydus.
So your actually are fully in control of the risk-taking as zerg. If you build it in a location where the enemy army is quite far away and send a changeling in to see when the enemy comes --> You have time to get out alive. He can indeed kill it with all of his workers, but thats pretty risky vs Fungal growth and Lurker Spines as they clump up in the proces.
And I want to stress out; This is not a replacement to Overlord drops, hence why I specifically made them have different advantages and disadvantages. You don't have to build it as zerg, its merely an option if you have very strong multitasking.
On the other hand, I think overlord drops - while also rewarding multitasking - have more strategical implications as the enemy has to react by sending the majority of his army to defend a doom drop. This Nydus is more focussed on promoting small encounters. I think both tools should have a place in Sc2.
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The thing is the actual Nydus building is already 200 gas, so you either change that or the new nydus is basically an "undetected" overlord drop with a small amount of overlords.
I like overlord drops much more cause i can do the exact same as in your nydus suggestion, just use one or two overlords for valuable units like lurkers, OR i can do a doomdrop, but the risk with a doomdrop is kinda high here.
In general i kinda dislike the nydus in sc2, it feels too binary, your idea would make it somewhat better in that regard , but i still feel that overlord drops are a much more interesting concept and do the same tbh.
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I quite like this idea. A shit load of invulnerable nydus going down in your base leaves me with nervous twitches.
It's clearly something blizzard is looking at, and thinking on for lotv, which is good. And to go slightly off topic, I hope they look at other upgrades etc which rarely get used, to try and spice things up more (eg building armor, overlord drops, sensor towers).
But yeah, am kinda on board with this,
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As an after thought, would a 'hots' style nydus, but with lower build cost be better? This would bring them in to play more?
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On April 07 2015 22:42 fruity. wrote:
As an after thought, would a 'hots' style nydus, but with lower build cost be better? This would bring them in to play more?
Well there are still 3 issues with it;
(1) It promotes more all-in play
(2) Overlaps with Overlords more as it transport mid/large sized armies
(3) Still feels like you are flipping a coin and hoping the enemy didn't scout it.
just use one or two overlords for valuable units like lurkers, OR i can do a doomdrop, but the risk with a doomdrop is kinda high here.
There is a huge time-delay difference. With overlords you have to plan much further ahead and once your drop can be unloaded, the enemy might already be prepared for it or is killing you.
The nydus on the other hand is instant, and I found this element really fun as it made me feel so powerful.
Its unlike any other harass technique in the game, and my only real concern here is whether it has addequate counterplay, or whether its too low risk for the zerg to go in and out.
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On April 07 2015 22:43 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2015 22:42 fruity. wrote:
As an after thought, would a 'hots' style nydus, but with lower build cost be better? This would bring them in to play more? Well there are still 3 issues with it; (1) It promotes more all-in play (2) Transport mid/large armies instantly. (3) Still feels like you are flipping a coin and hoping the enemy didn't scout it.
Fair points. Hots style with a supply cap for the nydus maybe?
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On April 07 2015 22:46 fruity. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2015 22:43 Hider wrote:On April 07 2015 22:42 fruity. wrote:
As an after thought, would a 'hots' style nydus, but with lower build cost be better? This would bring them in to play more? Well there are still 3 issues with it; (1) It promotes more all-in play (2) Transport mid/large armies instantly. (3) Still feels like you are flipping a coin and hoping the enemy didn't scout it. Fair points. Hots style with a supply cap for the nydus maybe?
I wrote about that on the previous page.
So I wrote I thought about this for a while and the Cargo-idea with quick unload had been on my mind too.
I had wanted to test an idea where Cargo was like 20 supply at tier 2 and 60 supply (maybe at tier 3). But when you change the cargo-number in the editor, the only effect is that you have to unload them before you can get in new units. So a big army can still be transfered pretty fast. Anyway, that can surely be fixed, but a bit complicated editor-wise.
But I was never as sold on the cargo-idea as I am with Nydus-solution for 3 reasons:
(1) Cargo idea still overlaps with Overlord drops in terms of medium sized armies.
(2) Defensive "teleportation isn't needed for zerg in Sc2 as explained above.
(3) It would probably still have a very high BT which makes it feel less reliable and more about the enemy messing up. On the other hand with only 3 second BT its incredibly powerful, less about luck and more about multitasking.
But ofc it depends on the exact implementation. You can have like max 10 cargo and very quick BT as well, and then it is similar to this Nydus suggestion with the exception that 3 Lurkers can come out instantly. I feel it adds a bit more counterplay when each unit comes out slower. It adds more of a "gradual" feeling to it. In too many ways Starcraft is too black and white/all in or nothing. This Nydus is the opposite of that.
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Just a thought on the warning sound - If it creates a map-wide shriek for 50/50, then it totally might be worth building them defensively, just to freak your opponent out. Talk about Zerg being scary O.o
This does bring attention to an idea that SC has never really been big on though, which is the idea of abilities which affect your opponent on the PLAYER side, not the GAMEPLAY side.
What if LotV changelings caused the UI to make the "your units are under attack" warning randomly? Dumb examples, but the point - of abilities messing with the player/UI rather than the units/buildings, is one not touched at all (except for Hallucination, I suppose).
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On April 07 2015 23:05 Vexon wrote:
Just a thought on the warning sound - If it creates a map-wide shriek for 50/50, then it totally might be worth building them defensively, just to freak your opponent out. Talk about Zerg being scary O.o
This does bring attention to an idea that SC has never really been big on though, which is the idea of abilities which affect your opponent on the PLAYER side, not the GAMEPLAY side.
What if LotV changelings caused the UI to make the "your units are under attack" warning randomly? Dumb examples, but the point - of abilities messing with the player/UI rather than the units/buildings, is one not touched at all (except for Hallucination, I suppose).
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Shrieker
WoL alpha had some really cool concepts(even though it was difficult to make them work).
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I wouldn't discount this idea that readily. The only issue it presents are in the numbers, which can be fine-tuned. Its the concept that does indeed (at least in theory) seem to work.
If you build multiple nydus networks, they can spawn multiple nydus worms… this would present an issue for abusing the fast (3sec?) build time of each worm… but at the same time, you've invested heavily in your nydus networks and worms, reducing your overall army size. I don't think this is a huge problem, if you unload 9 units out of the two nydus worms, get in an opponent's mineral line, kill some workers before they run, and then see their army coming back… you need to run… which you can, but you only did some damage, for 50minerals/50gas x 2 for each worm.
One of the interesting issues is that if unloading time is based on number of units alone, you will never want to send zerglings through. If it is based on supply, then you see more interesting factors at play. I think supply would make more sense. Something along the lines of 1 sec per supply.
With this "new" supply-based-nydus I think the most effective use of this version would be mineral-line harassment units. I could see unloading 1-2 lurkers quickly, and getting them behind a mineral line, or attempting to get 3 banelings out ASAP and roll on into a mineral line.
Anyway, I think this idea is worth more discussion than the average person is giving it. If it doesn't tickle your fancy right away, then just play with some of the numbers.
Edit:
After i posted, i read some of the posts that were made while i posted.
If overlap between overlords and nydus appears to be an issue, i would propose that overlord cargo upgrades are made significantly cheaper, but take a hell of a lot longer. That way, you can have this tool as your earlier game drop-harass style transport. Then when you hit lair tech, you start overlord drops early, but it will take until much later in the game before the upgrade finishes, and the "doom-drop" style of transport becomes available. I think if the upgrade for overlord transport is made cheaper, then it can be chosen more readily, but ideally you wouldn't want the possibility of early-mid-game overlords dropping your main and natural with banelings at the same time, so a longer research time (much longer?) would be nice.
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One of the interesting issues is that if unloading time is based on number of units alone, you will never want to send zerglings through. If it is based on supply, then you see more interesting factors at play. I think supply would make more sense. Something along the lines of 1 sec per supply.
Yeh I agree that might make a bit more sense as it would create more options in terms of which units you send through (but my idea is so much easier in the editor ^^).
When I responded previously to cargo suggestions it was under the impression that you could only have a max number of supply through it (as in overlord drops). But I think the real variables that Blizzard should look at is the BT time which can be heavily reduced if you increase the unload time significantly.
Regardless of how exactly that is implemented, this can make the Nydus really fun and less gimmicky.
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4713 Posts
I'm actually of the opinion that it was a mistake by Blizzard to allow creep to also give speed. It promotes some pretty bad behavior from zerg when they have both creep speed and speed upgrades for units. I can sorta understand the reasons given that they needed to invent another way to give them defenders advantage due to the lack of it in SC2 (no high ground advantage and existence of warp ins), but in feels like sloppy and narrow design.
I think we should just bury the idea that Nydus could ever be a good offensive option, its too polarizing, its either way too efficient or way too inefficient. Creep speed should be removed and the Nydus should go back to the function it served in BW.
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On April 07 2015 20:58 _fool wrote:
Ah, I misread the "to 50/50 from 100/100" as the other way around.
Light harass is a good idea, yes. But I still like the versatility that the old nydus had, where you quickly move armies (to defend bases, or to get slow units to the front quickly). I'd like both to be an option, though not necessarily from the same tunnel type.
Also, the 200/200 investment in the initial nydus node is what prevents me from using it. If that were cheaper, I'd alway have one available in longer games, as escape route/counter mechanism. Maybe tweak that somewhat?
Hm, tunnel types. Hell, why not? Maybe we don't even need that. What if there was
a) the nydus network itself has its costs reduced so that it can then be used to connect multiple bases *
b) there are 2 types of worms: one medium cost with a lot of hp that takes quite a long time to build that you can use to connect bases, and another one u can use to harass enemy expansions. low cost, low hp, no invulnerability.
* which would kinda work well with the hole "expand more" vibe of LOTV. After all if you need to take so many bases, creep spread will be an issue for zerg even depending on map size
I don't like the use of the nydus to all-in that much anyway. But I thinks its the most underdeveloped "unit" in the game for harass.
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On April 08 2015 03:07 Destructicon wrote:
I'm actually of the opinion that it was a mistake by Blizzard to allow creep to also give speed. It promotes some pretty bad behavior from zerg when they have both creep speed and speed upgrades for units. I can sorta understand the reasons given that they needed to invent another way to give them defenders advantage due to the lack of it in SC2 (no high ground advantage and existence of warp ins), but in feels like sloppy and narrow design.
I think we should just bury the idea that Nydus could ever be a good offensive option, its too polarizing, its either way too efficient or way too inefficient. Creep speed should be removed and the Nydus should go back to the function it served in BW.
The sad thing is things like this will just never happen. Blizzard wants to bring SC2 to that same spot BW ended up without making it all too much like brood war. Its natural of course for them to want to do their own thing so they can take pride in coming up with it instead of just copying brood war. But I feel like theyre trying so hard to do things NOT like they were in brood war that they might be overseeing valid options.
That's why so many half of the units now are weird semi brood war copies and the rest are silly things they came up with themselves, and the two sides have a lot of overlap. I think having lurkers and swarm hosts and broodmothers is really just extremely silly at this point.
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On April 08 2015 03:07 Destructicon wrote:
I'm actually of the opinion that it was a mistake by Blizzard to allow creep to also give speed. It promotes some pretty bad behavior from zerg when they have both creep speed and speed upgrades for units. I can sorta understand the reasons given that they needed to invent another way to give them defenders advantage due to the lack of it in SC2 (no high ground advantage and existence of warp ins), but in feels like sloppy and narrow design.
I think we should just bury the idea that Nydus could ever be a good offensive option, its too polarizing, its either way too efficient or way too inefficient. Creep speed should be removed and the Nydus should go back to the function it served in BW.
Even with no creep nydus would never ever be used defensively. Its too expensive for one thing, and has too little hp for another. 8 stimmed marines will run in and kill the nydus way before you have time to use it to bring units to the defense, and the cost makes it vastly more inefficient than defending with mutalisks and lings.
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I'd much rather remove Overlord drops and keep the Nydus how it was in WoL and HotS, and just lower its cost.
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They could move nydus to hive and buff its health and armor so it's harder to prevent from going up (I'm thinking like 8 armor and 700 health or sth). I think both nydus and hive tech zerg need some love, but strong nydus on lair would be way too good with how Zerg works.
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Seems to me like making Nydus require a Hive solves all of these issues.
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