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4713 Posts
On April 08 2015 05:27 goswser wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2015 03:07 Destructicon wrote:
I'm actually of the opinion that it was a mistake by Blizzard to allow creep to also give speed. It promotes some pretty bad behavior from zerg when they have both creep speed and speed upgrades for units. I can sorta understand the reasons given that they needed to invent another way to give them defenders advantage due to the lack of it in SC2 (no high ground advantage and existence of warp ins), but in feels like sloppy and narrow design.
I think we should just bury the idea that Nydus could ever be a good offensive option, its too polarizing, its either way too efficient or way too inefficient. Creep speed should be removed and the Nydus should go back to the function it served in BW. Even with no creep nydus would never ever be used defensively. Its too expensive for one thing, and has too little hp for another. 8 stimmed marines will run in and kill the nydus way before you have time to use it to bring units to the defense, and the cost makes it vastly more inefficient than defending with mutalisks and lings.
Its too expensive now because its been balanced around being a offensive tool. If it was made a defensive tool I could forsee the gas cost of the network and the worm itself going down significantly, maybe even removing it entirely.
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Definitely a better idea than the current LotV Nydus.
My own take:
Nydus Network:
- Move the Nydus Network to Hive tech. Same stats and cost.
Nydus Worm:
- Increased Armor while spawning only
- No longer generates creep when spawned.
- Decrease cost from 100/100 -> 100/25
- Increase the enter and unload speed
- Loses 10hp/unload on-creep, 20hp/unload off-creep
Reasoning:
Less of a hit/miss investment on the Zerg's part while being more manageable for the opponent to deal with given the higher tech-level and the fact that worms eventually collapse as they unload units. This also keeps your idea of making them less desirable for transporting low-quality units in high number (lings).
The load/unload increase combined with a reduced cost makes it a more desirable defensive and reinforcement option when using immobile comps like roach/hydra or BL/Infestor.
Finally, I think having the nydus at Hive helps reduce the overlap with drops. Also encourages synergy with drops since there's a noticeable benefit to spawning nydus worms on creep.
Overlords drop lurkers/lings into base -> Overlords generate creep -> spawn nydus for escape and/or further reinforcement.
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On April 08 2015 06:04 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2015 05:27 goswser wrote:On April 08 2015 03:07 Destructicon wrote:
I'm actually of the opinion that it was a mistake by Blizzard to allow creep to also give speed. It promotes some pretty bad behavior from zerg when they have both creep speed and speed upgrades for units. I can sorta understand the reasons given that they needed to invent another way to give them defenders advantage due to the lack of it in SC2 (no high ground advantage and existence of warp ins), but in feels like sloppy and narrow design.
I think we should just bury the idea that Nydus could ever be a good offensive option, its too polarizing, its either way too efficient or way too inefficient. Creep speed should be removed and the Nydus should go back to the function it served in BW. Even with no creep nydus would never ever be used defensively. Its too expensive for one thing, and has too little hp for another. 8 stimmed marines will run in and kill the nydus way before you have time to use it to bring units to the defense, and the cost makes it vastly more inefficient than defending with mutalisks and lings. Its too expensive now because its been balanced around being a offensive tool. If it was made a defensive tool I could forsee the gas cost of the network and the worm itself going down significantly, maybe even removing it entirely.
I still think it will rarely be used as its just easier to move them around. It will kinda function as an apm-waster w/ very little reward.
Again, the reason we had defensive Nydus in BW was becasue zerg didn't have such an easy time gaining map control. Zerg had a ton less larva.
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It would be way too situational, lurkers, ravagers or infestors thats really all that it could be used for. If this idea would fly I would advice removing the nydus sound ( the reason players were warned about nyduses were due to the extreme danger that it no longer poses) This way it could be used to slowly release at least a handful of units in the fog of war or if the player was not paying attention.
I don't know if you had planned that but I would make entering into the nydus instantaneous and I would buff up the hp of the nydus to maybe the 80 range. This way you could make a nydus as a way of saving a fleeing army, you can't move your army aggresivelly like you could before but you can retreat fast if so choose.
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This way you could make a nydus as a way of saving a fleeing army, you can't move your army aggresivelly like you could before but you can retreat fast if so choose.
Is this really needed for zerg though?
It would be way too situational, lurkers, ravagers or infestors thats really all that it could be used for.
I don't agree thats way too situational. Those units are gonna see quite freqeunt usage in LOTV. And ofc as someone else suggested, the unload time could be related to supply cost instead. The main thing here to take away is a signficaint reduction in unload-time in order to make the BT much much faster.
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150/200 for the network
50/50 for the worm
+ often some cost to even get vision for the nydus
I feel like it doesn't really serve the purpose of a harass-tool in creating a lot of costefficiency. It's a late harass-tool, probably mainly working well with lategame units due to the unload speed. As such, it becomes very hard to find the time to pay off for the investment costs if we also add that a Swarm Host, Lurker or Infestor (the most likely units for it I feel like) costs 150-200gas. Like, if you only do one worm with say 2infestors, that would be 550gas. You would need to do a lot of worms with a very nice damage output and really retain your units most of the time to get to a break-even point with the high investment imo. And as a rather late-tool, I'm not sure games last long enough to make that attractive.
Just mutas or flying locusts could probably do a better job with more strategical applications all around. It's actually very hard for me to imagine a good nydus worm usage at this point. A drop-like nydus sounds awesome, but it needs to be very cheap then, and just starting it off with 200gas already sounds like a no-go. And even just 50gas per worm is quite a lot given that a prism costs 0 and a medivac is a combat unit that even helps with the harass and you can sometimes retain.
Also with such short build time, you could spam a lot of nydus around in the lategame from a single network, which would circumvent the slow unload, at least in the lategame. And it would give zerg a form of infinite recalls from corner situations, unless the upload speed was also nerfed severely.
Maybe if it was like this:
- Nydus Network cost to 50/100 from 100/200
- Global Nydus Network cargo from infinity-->8
- Nydus Network unload time per unit decreased from 0.5 to 0.25 second
- Nydus Network upload time stays at 0.25seconds
- Nydus Worms are no longer connected to a Zerg players global nydus network --> they have their own cargo space of 8
- HP of Nydus Worm reduced from 200 to 40
- Nydus Worm build-time reduced to 3 seconds from 20 seconds
- Nydus Worm unload time per unit increased from 0.5 to 1 second
- Upon a spawning worm finishing, all units are removed from the Global Nydus Network cargo and get added into the spawned nydus worm
- No invulnerability when building of course
Idea behind it:
The Nydus Worm is very cheap, but limited to transporting the up to 8 units that are currently loaded into a nydus network. The transport is a kamikaze mission, no way back.
Same as with Hider's suggestion, the Nydus Worm is very vulnerable but spawns fast and can be spawned very frequently. Since it is limited to 8units anyways, the unload time is lower than in Hider's suggestion, but still higher than right now which sounds fair given the very fast spawning time. --> it scales better with the opponents reaction, it's not always "all units get into the base" or "no units get into the base" so reaction time matters. But it may still be worth it to nydus a bunch of cracklings in, because at worst you lose 300minerals and they might actually all make it out, which with 3second unload would take 24seconds+3second spawning.
The network itself can now also be used better defensively. You can build two networks at two bases for 200/200 (instead of the current 250/300 for network+worm) and since the unload and upload time match now at 0.25seconds, a skilled player can quickly transport between bases by making units unload as they enter thereby not being limited to only transporting 8units from network to network.
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OK how about we are going absolutely crazy with that Nydus change idea.
Here is my turn to the new Nydus Worm.
Keep the cost for the Nydus Building but move the ability to spawn the head to the Overseer.
The Overseer "drops" a marker (mechanic is similar to dropping a changeling) for the worm and it will break out (maybe after a delay), still killable, but will be rewarding if you are able to keep your multitasking up.
Or let the worm build a unit which is capable of doing that, and the larva mechanic wont break the game.
Pro:
- It's counterable with good map awareness like any other drop
- Cost of the Overseer/ Unit will compensate the lack of the original Head cost
- you can tweak the Energy cost for balancing
- you can have more than one nydus head on the map
- Toss can feedback
- making Overseers more useful
Con
- do we really want mass Nydus worms all over the map?
- paranoia
- ...
discuss away maybe you like my idea or see any other problems.
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The problem I see with this is pros will only use infestors to harass. Spawn infestors everywhere, vomit free units, and then back to safety of the nydus.
Don't think they will use it with ultras or lurkers because there's the risk of losing the nydus since it's hp is lower, and therefore risk of losing expensive units if the nydus is sniped. Plus it's doable to move away your workers and save them from the harass and then kill nydus/ultra and lurkers, while it's inefficient to deal with free units everywhere.
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Honestly zerg is just too gas intensive across the board atm. I am not sure Nydus need a gas-tweak if units such as Lurkers, Vipers and Infestors become less gas-intensive.
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i would prefer a hive upgrade for nydus so u can create an air only nydus or ground nydus.
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I like the idea of making it a consistently used ability throughout the game but a carrying capacity would be beneficial for this sort of thing. I'd actually keep unload time .5 seconds and just make the cap at say 10 units/8 supply.
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the numbers are ridiculous. But I kinda get the point of your suggestion. Sneaking in specialized units doing special (gimmicky) tactics, its pretty good, But kinda contradicts the nature of zerg, which is Quantity > Quality,.
How about make the loading/unloading time related to the supply of the unit.
ex. 1 supply unit faster loading/unloading , 8 supply slower loading/unloading
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The only reason the nydus is so problematic is because the rushes for it are so effective. It should be Hive Tech.
Honestly, once it's Hive Tech you can dramatically reduce the cost so that it can be more all-purpose.
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Really, the aspect where the nydus is used for these counter attacks or all ins has never really appealed me. I'd personally like to see a nydusnetwork that just connects bases and maybe increases the reinforcement speed, or allows drones to evacuate. I'd probably be more interesting, and could be a strategical choice if you are going for some slower units, so that you don't suffer as much from their immobility.
Maybe this could be achieved by making the nydusworm require creep to be deployed (its still doable to use it offensively with overlords dropping creep then) and then drastically reduce its cost, maybe to 100 minerals, or 50/50, or maybe even 50 minerals.
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I just thought of an idea where you could also have a burrowed Nydus Worm that doesn't make a sound and doesn't quite come quite to the surface, but you can only unload burrowed Roaches and burrowed Infestors out of it, and also it doesn't spread creep.
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EPT
