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Introduction
The Nydus Network has never been in a very good spot in Sc2, and as I will argue below, the direction it has taken in LOTV isn't one I like either. But while I used to think there was no way the Nydus could properly be implemented into the game, I recently came up with an idea that promote a type of gameplay that is more focussed on rewarding multitasking and back-and-fourth games.
The role of the Nydus in the past
In BW it functioned as a way to get your units from one of your bases to another very quickly. However, in Sc2 zerg got creep spread and a big larva buff resulting in them having easier access to map control, and therefore a defensive Nydus wasn't really needed anymore.
In Sc2, the role of the Nydus had to be different, and Blizzard attempted to make it more of an offensive tool. But unfortunately it became an all-or-nothing strategy. Either the enemy didn't kill it in time and the zerg would win, or he would kill it in time and shut it down completely.
In LOTV, Blizzard has tried to adress this issue by making it always work. But making it always work has also resulted in all-ins being insanely hard to stop whic has caused lots of games to be very short with little back-and-fourth play. While I love an actionpacked game, it's also super important that the game has back-and-fourth opportunities.
Therefore I believe that 1 Nydus Network should almost never be able to directly decide the game. The LOTV-Nydus instead often comes down to whether you have enough units to kill the enemy army (and the Nydus) after it pops, or whether the zerg has too much stuff and overruns you --> Game ends.
How I imagine the future role of the Nydus
Ideally, the Nydus Network must be very different from Overlord drops. Overlord drops allows you transport a large percentage of your army into the enemy base (or on top of enemy tanks as we saw in BW) and the proces between loading up units and unloading them into enemy base is quite long.
Since I actually like how Overlord functions from a design-perspective, I rather change the Nydus to make it different from Overlord drops than vice versa.
So ideally, the Nydus Network must have the following characteristica;
- Lower risk/lower reward
- Instant effect/"teleportation"
- More reliable than Overlord drops
- Allow counterplay
- Reward action and multitasking
For years I have thought about changes to the Nydus that fulfilled the above criteria, but I couldn't come up with anything... Untill yesterday, where I experimented with the below changes:
(note: Don't focus excessively on specific numbers, they can be tweaked for balance purposes)
Suggested Nydus Network changes;
- HP of Nydus Canal reduced from 200 to 40
- Nydus Canal cost reduced to 50/50 from 100/100
- Nydus Canal build-time reduced to 3 seconds from 20 seconds --> Much better at getting 1-5 units through it
- Nydus Canal unload time per unit increased from 0.5 to 3 seconds --> Results in it taking much much longer for large armies to get through it.
(No invulnerability)
Implications
This Nydus Network has a completely different risk/reward from the classical Sc2-network. Its not very good at transporting lots of cheap/weak units (Speedlings, Roaches and Hydras) through it. Instead its a strong tool of getting more expensive units such as Ravagers, Infestors, Ultras and espcially Lurkers in smaller numbers into the enemy base or close to one of the outer expansions.
While the Nydus goes up almost instantly, its very easy to kill for two reasons;
(1) The zerg player doesn't have a big army attacking you while you try to kill it.
(2) It only has 40 HP.
How it differs from Overlord drops
First of all, I believe Overlord drops should be buffed. I imagine the upgrade behind cheaper (100/100) and perhaps they can move slightly faster as well.
But Overlord drops are better at getting a medium-sized armies into the enemy base. You can have 8 Zerglings in one overlord, but getting 8 Zerglings through a Nydus Canal takes 21 seconds (read: not worth it). And the Nydus-concept is much more of an instant-effect (but less reward in most case) while Overlord drops have a higher reward.
What skillset it rewards
Multitasking... ang mass. A skilled zerg player will attack you few units everywhere on the map almost all the time. The enemy can counter it by killing the Nydus or splitting his units up to deny vision so Nydus cannot be placed close to any bases.
What is the risk
The risk of this Nydus Network going wrong is not removed but merely changed. Rather than it being about the zerg building a large army and crossing the fingers that he can get them through the Canal, the risk is now more focussed on the enemy killing the Nydus Canal after it has unloaded the units. With only 40 HP, its much easier for the enemy to kill the Nydus. So if the zerg player overextends or stay too long, he can get stuck with a few Lurkers, Ravagers or an Ultralisk in the enemy base.
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100/100 for a 40hp tunnel that takes 9 seconds to unload 3 units? The 3 second build time does not compensate for that.
I'd never use that. The unloaded units are lost for sure, since there is no escape. If I want to lose 3 expensive units, I can do that without paying 100/100
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On April 07 2015 20:44 _fool wrote:
100/100 for a 40hp tunnel that takes 9 seconds to unload 3 units? The 3 second build time does not compensate for that.
I'd never use that. The unloaded units are lost for sure, since there is no escape. If I want to lose 3 expensive units, I can do that without paying 100/100
50/50*. And you don't need 3 units. You can get one Lurker through and it does solid damage. Or 1 Ravager with its skillshot. You decide where to place it, you decide how far in you wanna go with your units. You can even use Changelings to see how far away enemy forces are to know whether you can burrow the Lurkers (safely) or not.
The point here is that you dont use the Nydus to overrun the opponent with a big army. You use it for lighter harass with more expensive units. This differs quite a lot from the high risk/high rewrad of overlord drops.
FYI, when I tested this, it actually felt much closer to being OP than UP, but its tough to say since its such a skillbased tool (and why I specifically wrote you shuoldn't focus on the exact numbers).
But I think your heavily underestimating how fast it actually goes up. Unless he his units right where it spawns, you will almost always be able to get a unit out, attack for (at very least) 1-2 seconds, and then back again.
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very bad idea, dont see why this would be good
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Ah, I misread the "to 50/50 from 100/100" as the other way around.
Light harass is a good idea, yes. But I still like the versatility that the old nydus had, where you quickly move armies (to defend bases, or to get slow units to the front quickly). I'd like both to be an option, though not necessarily from the same tunnel type.
Also, the 200/200 investment in the initial nydus node is what prevents me from using it. If that were cheaper, I'd alway have one available in longer games, as escape route/counter mechanism. Maybe tweak that somewhat?
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better idea than the current nydus
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I was about to jump on the "that's a bad idea"-train. But I think u are on the right track. Here is my thought:
By introducing a cargo size to each Nydus-Network and lower the unload time, the player has the ability to make the Nydus-play use also as an army movement tool. Meaning, more nydus --> more cargo in total --> more army. It's still a harassing tool if u only have 1/ few Nydus-Networks. Making the player decide what he wants to do is key. Not limiting him. That's what i wish for a lot of things in LotV. Ofc it's not that ez many times.
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Light harass is a good idea, yes. But I still like the versatility that the old nydus had, where you quickly move armies (to defend bases, or to get slow units to the front quickly). I'd like both to be an option, though not necessarily from the same tunnel type.
The defensive role was great in BW, but just doesn't fit in with the Sc2-zerg. They have creep spread and can therefore quickly move between base. On the other hand vs. terran in BW, you wouldn't have map control so if terran was attacking one of your outer expos, you had to transport through the Nydus Canal.
I think you could make the Canal free and noone would still use it defensively.... (its just not needed).
So the only role I can see for the Nydus is as a light harass-tool. The idea I presented felt incredibly powerful and fun as you (in the midgame) constantly can create scenarios where you harass the enemy.
By introducing a cargo size to each Nydus-Network and lower the unload time, the player has the ability to make the Nydus-play use also as an army movement tool.
So I wrote I thought about this for a while and the Cargo-idea with quick unload had been on my mind too.
I had wanted to test an idea where Cargo was like 20 supply at tier 2 and 60 supply (maybe at tier 3). But when you change the cargo-number in the editor, the only effect is that you have to unload them before you can get in new units. So a big army can still be transfered pretty fast. Anyway, that can surely be fixed, but a bit complicated editor-wise.
But I was never as sold on the cargo-idea as I am with Nydus-solution for 3 reasons:
(1) Cargo idea still overlaps with Overlord drops in terms of medium sized armies.
(2) Defensive "teleportation isn't needed for zerg in Sc2 as explained above.
(3) It would probably still have a very high BT which makes it feel less reliable and more about the enemy messing up. On the other hand with only 3 second BT its incredibly powerful, less about luck and more about multitasking.
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I actually like this idea, it turns the nydus more into a dropship kind of harrass thing instead of a load your whole army through it all in as you said. I think your idea is definitely in the right direction. 3 seconds might be a bit too long still though. Sure getting 3 infestors through in 9 seconds isnt all that bad, but getting 3 lings through in 9 seconds is terrible. Maybe the time to get through should be tied to the supply of the unit? Might end up being too complicated. 3 seconds is definitely too long however.
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On April 07 2015 21:15 solidbebe wrote:
I actually like this idea, it turns the nydus more into a dropship kind of harrass thing instead of a load your whole army through it all in as you said. I think your idea is definitely in the right direction. 3 seconds might be a bit too long still though. Sure getting 3 infestors through in 9 seconds isnt all that bad, but getting 3 lings through in 9 seconds is terrible. Maybe the time to get through should be tied to the supply of the unit? Might end up being too complicated. 3 seconds is definitely too long however.
I can follow you in the sense that 3 second sounds long. When I first tested the idea, I also used 1.5 or 2 seconds initially. But remember that its 3 Starcraft-seconds which is like 2 real-time seconds.
And after a bit of testing I decided on 3 second as it felt more like a sure thing when it comes to making it a bad all-in tool. And just getting 1-3 Lurkers in there for a brief period still felt really powerful.
But yeh exact numbers aren't so important. I just love the concept of a reliable low risk/low reward harass tool for zerg.
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Another thing that might be reduced is the warning sound. Dropships from multiple angles work because you might miss one while you're defending the other one. If 2 (new 3-second style) nydus tunnels go down, then the "all over the map warning shriek" might be too much?
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Interesting thoughts. Actually, I wonder if it wouldn't be better for the Nydus to have limited use or require more micro, such as saying it can only hold 10 units at a time and must unload completely before more can be put in. Or to let it unload 10 units and the Nydus dies, requiring another tunnel. This makes the risk more marginal and makes it more like a medivac drop than an all-in.
This idea makes it more of a harassment tool and basically kills it as a defensive tool. But as noted in the OP, Nydus worms in SC2 have never been in the meta as a defensive tool.
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On April 07 2015 21:25 _fool wrote:
Another thing that might be reduced is the warning sound. Dropships from multiple angles work because you might miss one while you're defending the other one. If 2 (new 3-second style) nydus tunnels go down, then the "all over the map warning shriek" might be too much?
Yeh good point, I think its unneeded with a global sound with this suggestion.
Actually, I wonder if it wouldn't be better for the Nydus to have limited use or require more micro, such as saying it can only hold 10 units at a time and must unload completely before more can be put in. Or to let it unload 10 units and the Nydus dies, requiring another tunnel. This makes the risk more marginal and makes it more like a medivac drop than an all-in.
I would like to see a higherskillcap in the game, but I think babysitting the Nydus Network in itself isn't that fun. I rather make it easier for players to engage in unit vs unit-interactions. So I prefer that the Nydus feels simple and eas to use, but that it opens up for lots of multitasking with small armies.
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The idea can work, and looks like Zerg's way of harass like Terran and Protoss do with Medivacs/Warp Prisms. The numbers definitely should be tweaked though because you can look at it this way:
-3 seconds is way too fast for a Nydus build time, for 200/200 I can make 4 Nydus Canals in a time of 12 seconds and I can unload 4 units at a time(every 3 seconds) which isn't exactly fast but it creates the same effect that the old Nydus has while generally being faster to build. I mean, it will have even less counter play than the current Nydus where you at least see it for 20 seconds and can prepare an army to snipe it the moment it goes up.
-You can make it this way but give Nydus Network a cooldown of 10 seconds or so for spawning Nydus Canal so you can't just spam them all over the map, it will very hard to deal with in the late game when Zerg is banking something like 2k/2k.
-Perhaps lower the cost of Nydus Canal to just minerals as it will work more like light harass mechanic for Zerg than the currently whole army transportation mechanic. Maybe 150 minerals without the gas cost? It could work, after all Zerg is gas heavy race and the same way Protoss Warp Prism costs minerals only.
Just some quick thoughts off top of my head while reading this.
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-3 seconds is way too fast for a Nydus build time, for 200/200 I can make 4 Nydus Canals in a time of 12 seconds and I can unload 4 units at a time(every 3 seconds) which isn't exactly fast but it creates the same effect that the old Nydus has while generally looking being faster to build.
Relevant point. I didn't put much thought into what would happen with multiple Canals at once. But I definitely dont like the idea of 4 Canals in one base. However, I do think its okay to have multiple Canals in the later stages of the game all over the map.
I think one could consider setting a max of 1-2 Canals at once, and a hive upgrade that increases it to 4. But not sure, lots of different solutions.
-You can make it this way but give Nydus Network a cooldown of 10 seconds or so for spawning Nydus Canal so you can't just spam them all over the map,
That is probably a better solution than the idea I came up with.
Perhaps lower the cost of Nydus Canal to just minerals as it will work more like light harass mechanic for Zerg than the currently whole army transportation mechanic.
Oh forgot this as well. I have actually generally reduced gas cost of alot of zerg units in my map. Zerg has received all these new gas intensive units since WOL and they are fun to use, so why not allow us to mix more of them together?
Anyway, without a gas reduction of units, I think a mineral only Nydus is a good idea too.
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On April 07 2015 20:52 bypLy wrote:
very bad idea, dont see why this would be good
Anything is better than the current Nydus in LotV, no Nydus is better than that thing.
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How about a nydus that is a building and unit, and when you click on it you get to go into a subgame and play pacman under ground and eat minerals...
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On April 07 2015 21:51 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
How about a nydus that is a building and unit, and when you click on it you get to go into a subgame and play pacman under ground and eat minerals...
How about you post a constructive criticism or don't post at all?
I guess you haven't read his post at all but just took a narrow look at it, he has some valid points and if you don't like it that's fine, but don't just crap on it.
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Sry but i don't see the point of this at all.
Your idea seems to be to get a nydus which almost always gets out a handfull of units, the problem i see with this is that as zerg i usually need more than 3-5 units in the enemy base to actually do dmg.
Don't like this idea 
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On April 07 2015 22:06 The_Red_Viper wrote:Sry but i don't see the point of this at all. Your idea seems to be to get a nydus which almost always gets out a handfull of units, the problem i see with this is that as zerg i usually need more than 3-5 units in the enemy base to actually do dmg. Don't like this idea
And thats where Infestors, Lurkers and Ravagers come in. Units that actually can do stuff in fewer numbers. If you ever tried a Lurker drop, I think you would be on board ^^.
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EPT
