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Introduction
The Nydus Network has never been in a very good spot in Sc2, and as I will argue below, the direction it has taken in LOTV isn't one I like either. But while I used to think there was no way the Nydus could properly be implemented into the game, I recently came up with an idea that promote a type of gameplay that is more focussed on rewarding multitasking and back-and-fourth games.
The role of the Nydus in the past
In BW it functioned as a way to get your units from one of your bases to another very quickly. However, in Sc2 zerg got creep spread and a big larva buff resulting in them having easier access to map control, and therefore a defensive Nydus wasn't really needed anymore.
In Sc2, the role of the Nydus had to be different, and Blizzard attempted to make it more of an offensive tool. But unfortunately it became an all-or-nothing strategy. Either the enemy didn't kill it in time and the zerg would win, or he would kill it in time and shut it down completely.
In LOTV, Blizzard has tried to adress this issue by making it always work. But making it always work has also resulted in all-ins being insanely hard to stop whic has caused lots of games to be very short with little back-and-fourth play. While I love an actionpacked game, it's also super important that the game has back-and-fourth opportunities.
Therefore I believe that 1 Nydus Network should almost never be able to directly decide the game. The LOTV-Nydus instead often comes down to whether you have enough units to kill the enemy army (and the Nydus) after it pops, or whether the zerg has too much stuff and overruns you --> Game ends.
How I imagine the future role of the Nydus
Ideally, the Nydus Network must be very different from Overlord drops. Overlord drops allows you transport a large percentage of your army into the enemy base (or on top of enemy tanks as we saw in BW) and the proces between loading up units and unloading them into enemy base is quite long.
Since I actually like how Overlord functions from a design-perspective, I rather change the Nydus to make it different from Overlord drops than vice versa.
So ideally, the Nydus Network must have the following characteristica;
- Lower risk/lower reward
- Instant effect/"teleportation"
- More reliable than Overlord drops
- Allow counterplay
- Reward action and multitasking
For years I have thought about changes to the Nydus that fulfilled the above criteria, but I couldn't come up with anything... Untill yesterday, where I experimented with the below changes:
(note: Don't focus excessively on specific numbers, they can be tweaked for balance purposes)
Suggested Nydus Network changes;
- HP of Nydus Canal reduced from 200 to 40
- Nydus Canal cost reduced to 50/50 from 100/100
- Nydus Canal build-time reduced to 3 seconds from 20 seconds --> Much better at getting 1-5 units through it
- Nydus Canal unload time per unit increased from 0.5 to 3 seconds --> Results in it taking much much longer for large armies to get through it.
(No invulnerability)
Implications
This Nydus Network has a completely different risk/reward from the classical Sc2-network. Its not very good at transporting lots of cheap/weak units (Speedlings, Roaches and Hydras) through it. Instead its a strong tool of getting more expensive units such as Ravagers, Infestors, Ultras and espcially Lurkers in smaller numbers into the enemy base or close to one of the outer expansions.
While the Nydus goes up almost instantly, its very easy to kill for two reasons;
(1) The zerg player doesn't have a big army attacking you while you try to kill it.
(2) It only has 40 HP.
How it differs from Overlord drops
First of all, I believe Overlord drops should be buffed. I imagine the upgrade behind cheaper (100/100) and perhaps they can move slightly faster as well.
But Overlord drops are better at getting a medium-sized armies into the enemy base. You can have 8 Zerglings in one overlord, but getting 8 Zerglings through a Nydus Canal takes 21 seconds (read: not worth it). And the Nydus-concept is much more of an instant-effect (but less reward in most case) while Overlord drops have a higher reward.
What skillset it rewards
Multitasking... ang mass. A skilled zerg player will attack you few units everywhere on the map almost all the time. The enemy can counter it by killing the Nydus or splitting his units up to deny vision so Nydus cannot be placed close to any bases.
What is the risk
The risk of this Nydus Network going wrong is not removed but merely changed. Rather than it being about the zerg building a large army and crossing the fingers that he can get them through the Canal, the risk is now more focussed on the enemy killing the Nydus Canal after it has unloaded the units. With only 40 HP, its much easier for the enemy to kill the Nydus. So if the zerg player overextends or stay too long, he can get stuck with a few Lurkers, Ravagers or an Ultralisk in the enemy base.
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100/100 for a 40hp tunnel that takes 9 seconds to unload 3 units? The 3 second build time does not compensate for that.
I'd never use that. The unloaded units are lost for sure, since there is no escape. If I want to lose 3 expensive units, I can do that without paying 100/100
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On April 07 2015 20:44 _fool wrote:
100/100 for a 40hp tunnel that takes 9 seconds to unload 3 units? The 3 second build time does not compensate for that.
I'd never use that. The unloaded units are lost for sure, since there is no escape. If I want to lose 3 expensive units, I can do that without paying 100/100
50/50*. And you don't need 3 units. You can get one Lurker through and it does solid damage. Or 1 Ravager with its skillshot. You decide where to place it, you decide how far in you wanna go with your units. You can even use Changelings to see how far away enemy forces are to know whether you can burrow the Lurkers (safely) or not.
The point here is that you dont use the Nydus to overrun the opponent with a big army. You use it for lighter harass with more expensive units. This differs quite a lot from the high risk/high rewrad of overlord drops.
FYI, when I tested this, it actually felt much closer to being OP than UP, but its tough to say since its such a skillbased tool (and why I specifically wrote you shuoldn't focus on the exact numbers).
But I think your heavily underestimating how fast it actually goes up. Unless he his units right where it spawns, you will almost always be able to get a unit out, attack for (at very least) 1-2 seconds, and then back again.
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very bad idea, dont see why this would be good
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Ah, I misread the "to 50/50 from 100/100" as the other way around.
Light harass is a good idea, yes. But I still like the versatility that the old nydus had, where you quickly move armies (to defend bases, or to get slow units to the front quickly). I'd like both to be an option, though not necessarily from the same tunnel type.
Also, the 200/200 investment in the initial nydus node is what prevents me from using it. If that were cheaper, I'd alway have one available in longer games, as escape route/counter mechanism. Maybe tweak that somewhat?
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better idea than the current nydus
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I was about to jump on the "that's a bad idea"-train. But I think u are on the right track. Here is my thought:
By introducing a cargo size to each Nydus-Network and lower the unload time, the player has the ability to make the Nydus-play use also as an army movement tool. Meaning, more nydus --> more cargo in total --> more army. It's still a harassing tool if u only have 1/ few Nydus-Networks. Making the player decide what he wants to do is key. Not limiting him. That's what i wish for a lot of things in LotV. Ofc it's not that ez many times.
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Light harass is a good idea, yes. But I still like the versatility that the old nydus had, where you quickly move armies (to defend bases, or to get slow units to the front quickly). I'd like both to be an option, though not necessarily from the same tunnel type.
The defensive role was great in BW, but just doesn't fit in with the Sc2-zerg. They have creep spread and can therefore quickly move between base. On the other hand vs. terran in BW, you wouldn't have map control so if terran was attacking one of your outer expos, you had to transport through the Nydus Canal.
I think you could make the Canal free and noone would still use it defensively.... (its just not needed).
So the only role I can see for the Nydus is as a light harass-tool. The idea I presented felt incredibly powerful and fun as you (in the midgame) constantly can create scenarios where you harass the enemy.
By introducing a cargo size to each Nydus-Network and lower the unload time, the player has the ability to make the Nydus-play use also as an army movement tool.
So I wrote I thought about this for a while and the Cargo-idea with quick unload had been on my mind too.
I had wanted to test an idea where Cargo was like 20 supply at tier 2 and 60 supply (maybe at tier 3). But when you change the cargo-number in the editor, the only effect is that you have to unload them before you can get in new units. So a big army can still be transfered pretty fast. Anyway, that can surely be fixed, but a bit complicated editor-wise.
But I was never as sold on the cargo-idea as I am with Nydus-solution for 3 reasons:
(1) Cargo idea still overlaps with Overlord drops in terms of medium sized armies.
(2) Defensive "teleportation isn't needed for zerg in Sc2 as explained above.
(3) It would probably still have a very high BT which makes it feel less reliable and more about the enemy messing up. On the other hand with only 3 second BT its incredibly powerful, less about luck and more about multitasking.
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I actually like this idea, it turns the nydus more into a dropship kind of harrass thing instead of a load your whole army through it all in as you said. I think your idea is definitely in the right direction. 3 seconds might be a bit too long still though. Sure getting 3 infestors through in 9 seconds isnt all that bad, but getting 3 lings through in 9 seconds is terrible. Maybe the time to get through should be tied to the supply of the unit? Might end up being too complicated. 3 seconds is definitely too long however.
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On April 07 2015 21:15 solidbebe wrote:
I actually like this idea, it turns the nydus more into a dropship kind of harrass thing instead of a load your whole army through it all in as you said. I think your idea is definitely in the right direction. 3 seconds might be a bit too long still though. Sure getting 3 infestors through in 9 seconds isnt all that bad, but getting 3 lings through in 9 seconds is terrible. Maybe the time to get through should be tied to the supply of the unit? Might end up being too complicated. 3 seconds is definitely too long however.
I can follow you in the sense that 3 second sounds long. When I first tested the idea, I also used 1.5 or 2 seconds initially. But remember that its 3 Starcraft-seconds which is like 2 real-time seconds.
And after a bit of testing I decided on 3 second as it felt more like a sure thing when it comes to making it a bad all-in tool. And just getting 1-3 Lurkers in there for a brief period still felt really powerful.
But yeh exact numbers aren't so important. I just love the concept of a reliable low risk/low reward harass tool for zerg.
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Another thing that might be reduced is the warning sound. Dropships from multiple angles work because you might miss one while you're defending the other one. If 2 (new 3-second style) nydus tunnels go down, then the "all over the map warning shriek" might be too much?
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Interesting thoughts. Actually, I wonder if it wouldn't be better for the Nydus to have limited use or require more micro, such as saying it can only hold 10 units at a time and must unload completely before more can be put in. Or to let it unload 10 units and the Nydus dies, requiring another tunnel. This makes the risk more marginal and makes it more like a medivac drop than an all-in.
This idea makes it more of a harassment tool and basically kills it as a defensive tool. But as noted in the OP, Nydus worms in SC2 have never been in the meta as a defensive tool.
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On April 07 2015 21:25 _fool wrote:
Another thing that might be reduced is the warning sound. Dropships from multiple angles work because you might miss one while you're defending the other one. If 2 (new 3-second style) nydus tunnels go down, then the "all over the map warning shriek" might be too much?
Yeh good point, I think its unneeded with a global sound with this suggestion.
Actually, I wonder if it wouldn't be better for the Nydus to have limited use or require more micro, such as saying it can only hold 10 units at a time and must unload completely before more can be put in. Or to let it unload 10 units and the Nydus dies, requiring another tunnel. This makes the risk more marginal and makes it more like a medivac drop than an all-in.
I would like to see a higherskillcap in the game, but I think babysitting the Nydus Network in itself isn't that fun. I rather make it easier for players to engage in unit vs unit-interactions. So I prefer that the Nydus feels simple and eas to use, but that it opens up for lots of multitasking with small armies.
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The idea can work, and looks like Zerg's way of harass like Terran and Protoss do with Medivacs/Warp Prisms. The numbers definitely should be tweaked though because you can look at it this way:
-3 seconds is way too fast for a Nydus build time, for 200/200 I can make 4 Nydus Canals in a time of 12 seconds and I can unload 4 units at a time(every 3 seconds) which isn't exactly fast but it creates the same effect that the old Nydus has while generally being faster to build. I mean, it will have even less counter play than the current Nydus where you at least see it for 20 seconds and can prepare an army to snipe it the moment it goes up.
-You can make it this way but give Nydus Network a cooldown of 10 seconds or so for spawning Nydus Canal so you can't just spam them all over the map, it will very hard to deal with in the late game when Zerg is banking something like 2k/2k.
-Perhaps lower the cost of Nydus Canal to just minerals as it will work more like light harass mechanic for Zerg than the currently whole army transportation mechanic. Maybe 150 minerals without the gas cost? It could work, after all Zerg is gas heavy race and the same way Protoss Warp Prism costs minerals only.
Just some quick thoughts off top of my head while reading this.
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-3 seconds is way too fast for a Nydus build time, for 200/200 I can make 4 Nydus Canals in a time of 12 seconds and I can unload 4 units at a time(every 3 seconds) which isn't exactly fast but it creates the same effect that the old Nydus has while generally looking being faster to build.
Relevant point. I didn't put much thought into what would happen with multiple Canals at once. But I definitely dont like the idea of 4 Canals in one base. However, I do think its okay to have multiple Canals in the later stages of the game all over the map.
I think one could consider setting a max of 1-2 Canals at once, and a hive upgrade that increases it to 4. But not sure, lots of different solutions.
-You can make it this way but give Nydus Network a cooldown of 10 seconds or so for spawning Nydus Canal so you can't just spam them all over the map,
That is probably a better solution than the idea I came up with.
Perhaps lower the cost of Nydus Canal to just minerals as it will work more like light harass mechanic for Zerg than the currently whole army transportation mechanic.
Oh forgot this as well. I have actually generally reduced gas cost of alot of zerg units in my map. Zerg has received all these new gas intensive units since WOL and they are fun to use, so why not allow us to mix more of them together?
Anyway, without a gas reduction of units, I think a mineral only Nydus is a good idea too.
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On April 07 2015 20:52 bypLy wrote:
very bad idea, dont see why this would be good
Anything is better than the current Nydus in LotV, no Nydus is better than that thing.
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How about a nydus that is a building and unit, and when you click on it you get to go into a subgame and play pacman under ground and eat minerals...
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On April 07 2015 21:51 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
How about a nydus that is a building and unit, and when you click on it you get to go into a subgame and play pacman under ground and eat minerals...
How about you post a constructive criticism or don't post at all?
I guess you haven't read his post at all but just took a narrow look at it, he has some valid points and if you don't like it that's fine, but don't just crap on it.
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Sry but i don't see the point of this at all.
Your idea seems to be to get a nydus which almost always gets out a handfull of units, the problem i see with this is that as zerg i usually need more than 3-5 units in the enemy base to actually do dmg.
Don't like this idea 
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On April 07 2015 22:06 The_Red_Viper wrote:Sry but i don't see the point of this at all. Your idea seems to be to get a nydus which almost always gets out a handfull of units, the problem i see with this is that as zerg i usually need more than 3-5 units in the enemy base to actually do dmg. Don't like this idea
And thats where Infestors, Lurkers and Ravagers come in. Units that actually can do stuff in fewer numbers. If you ever tried a Lurker drop, I think you would be on board ^^.
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On April 07 2015 22:06 The_Red_Viper wrote:Sry but i don't see the point of this at all. Your idea seems to be to get a nydus which almost always gets out a handfull of units, the problem i see with this is that as zerg i usually need more than 3-5 units in the enemy base to actually do dmg. Don't like this idea
I wish I could just make 10 Roaches and snipe Nexus with it before they die like Protoss are doing with Zealots and sniping Hatcheries. Outside of Mutas and now new Swarm Hosts Zerg has pathetic harassment. New Roaches are great but they are more of the pain in the ass to deal with than doing incredible damage like 7-8 Marines can do to your worker line... or Hellions, or Widow Mines, or Zealots, or Dark Templars, or Disruptors, or Oracle, or Banshee or...
In these games where you see Zerg doing incredible damage with Lings and Banelings are mostly games where opponent doesn't react at all and let 50 lings run-by and go straight into his base. I've seen plenty of games where Protoss warp in Zealots and snipe buildings even when you have part of your army there with Spines and Queens. Or when Terran drops 2 Medivacs full of units and makes a massacre in your base if you don't bring a fuckton of Lings, Banes and Mutas.
If Zerg wants to harass with his units, he really needs to commit to it with gas.
The point of this change that it will be closer to the Zerg drops, he said already that numbers can be tweaked and that they shouldn't be a problem. Zerg drops are close to useless right now anyway considering how slow Overlords are and how fast all other units are in the game.
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On April 07 2015 22:14 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2015 22:06 The_Red_Viper wrote:Sry but i don't see the point of this at all. Your idea seems to be to get a nydus which almost always gets out a handfull of units, the problem i see with this is that as zerg i usually need more than 3-5 units in the enemy base to actually do dmg. Don't like this idea And thats where Infestors, Lurkers and Ravagers come in. Units that actually can do stuff in fewer numbers. If you ever tried a Lurker drop, I think you would be on board ^^.
We don't even know how good lurkers are in sc2 yet 
Still, i would much rather see blizzard trying to make overlord drops more viable tbh.
I also don't think that Ravagers are great in low numbers.
What i also don't like about that idea is that zerg has no way to get the units back when you see that you will lose them without doing much dmg.
In general i see where you are coming from with your ideas, but this doesn't feel all that great imo.
I completely agree that the current LOTV nydus is meh though^^
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We don't even know how good lurkers are in sc2 yet
Still, i would much rather see blizzard trying to make overlord drops more viable tbh.
I agree with overlord drops, and it really surprises me (knowing DKs preferences) that there has been no buff here. I think they are well-designed and can easily be made viable through simple number tweaks.
What i also don't like about that idea is that zerg has no way to get the units back when you see that you will lose them without doing much dmg.
I think you imagine situations where the enemy army always is very close to the Nydus. That was indeed the case with the 20-second BT. But the BT is 3 seconds here and you decide where to build the Nydus.
So your actually are fully in control of the risk-taking as zerg. If you build it in a location where the enemy army is quite far away and send a changeling in to see when the enemy comes --> You have time to get out alive. He can indeed kill it with all of his workers, but thats pretty risky vs Fungal growth and Lurker Spines as they clump up in the proces.
And I want to stress out; This is not a replacement to Overlord drops, hence why I specifically made them have different advantages and disadvantages. You don't have to build it as zerg, its merely an option if you have very strong multitasking.
On the other hand, I think overlord drops - while also rewarding multitasking - have more strategical implications as the enemy has to react by sending the majority of his army to defend a doom drop. This Nydus is more focussed on promoting small encounters. I think both tools should have a place in Sc2.
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The thing is the actual Nydus building is already 200 gas, so you either change that or the new nydus is basically an "undetected" overlord drop with a small amount of overlords.
I like overlord drops much more cause i can do the exact same as in your nydus suggestion, just use one or two overlords for valuable units like lurkers, OR i can do a doomdrop, but the risk with a doomdrop is kinda high here.
In general i kinda dislike the nydus in sc2, it feels too binary, your idea would make it somewhat better in that regard , but i still feel that overlord drops are a much more interesting concept and do the same tbh.
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I quite like this idea. A shit load of invulnerable nydus going down in your base leaves me with nervous twitches.
It's clearly something blizzard is looking at, and thinking on for lotv, which is good. And to go slightly off topic, I hope they look at other upgrades etc which rarely get used, to try and spice things up more (eg building armor, overlord drops, sensor towers).
But yeah, am kinda on board with this,
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As an after thought, would a 'hots' style nydus, but with lower build cost be better? This would bring them in to play more?
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On April 07 2015 22:42 fruity. wrote:
As an after thought, would a 'hots' style nydus, but with lower build cost be better? This would bring them in to play more?
Well there are still 3 issues with it;
(1) It promotes more all-in play
(2) Overlaps with Overlords more as it transport mid/large sized armies
(3) Still feels like you are flipping a coin and hoping the enemy didn't scout it.
just use one or two overlords for valuable units like lurkers, OR i can do a doomdrop, but the risk with a doomdrop is kinda high here.
There is a huge time-delay difference. With overlords you have to plan much further ahead and once your drop can be unloaded, the enemy might already be prepared for it or is killing you.
The nydus on the other hand is instant, and I found this element really fun as it made me feel so powerful.
Its unlike any other harass technique in the game, and my only real concern here is whether it has addequate counterplay, or whether its too low risk for the zerg to go in and out.
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On April 07 2015 22:43 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2015 22:42 fruity. wrote:
As an after thought, would a 'hots' style nydus, but with lower build cost be better? This would bring them in to play more? Well there are still 3 issues with it; (1) It promotes more all-in play (2) Transport mid/large armies instantly. (3) Still feels like you are flipping a coin and hoping the enemy didn't scout it.
Fair points. Hots style with a supply cap for the nydus maybe?
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On April 07 2015 22:46 fruity. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2015 22:43 Hider wrote:On April 07 2015 22:42 fruity. wrote:
As an after thought, would a 'hots' style nydus, but with lower build cost be better? This would bring them in to play more? Well there are still 3 issues with it; (1) It promotes more all-in play (2) Transport mid/large armies instantly. (3) Still feels like you are flipping a coin and hoping the enemy didn't scout it. Fair points. Hots style with a supply cap for the nydus maybe?
I wrote about that on the previous page.
So I wrote I thought about this for a while and the Cargo-idea with quick unload had been on my mind too.
I had wanted to test an idea where Cargo was like 20 supply at tier 2 and 60 supply (maybe at tier 3). But when you change the cargo-number in the editor, the only effect is that you have to unload them before you can get in new units. So a big army can still be transfered pretty fast. Anyway, that can surely be fixed, but a bit complicated editor-wise.
But I was never as sold on the cargo-idea as I am with Nydus-solution for 3 reasons:
(1) Cargo idea still overlaps with Overlord drops in terms of medium sized armies.
(2) Defensive "teleportation isn't needed for zerg in Sc2 as explained above.
(3) It would probably still have a very high BT which makes it feel less reliable and more about the enemy messing up. On the other hand with only 3 second BT its incredibly powerful, less about luck and more about multitasking.
But ofc it depends on the exact implementation. You can have like max 10 cargo and very quick BT as well, and then it is similar to this Nydus suggestion with the exception that 3 Lurkers can come out instantly. I feel it adds a bit more counterplay when each unit comes out slower. It adds more of a "gradual" feeling to it. In too many ways Starcraft is too black and white/all in or nothing. This Nydus is the opposite of that.
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Just a thought on the warning sound - If it creates a map-wide shriek for 50/50, then it totally might be worth building them defensively, just to freak your opponent out. Talk about Zerg being scary O.o
This does bring attention to an idea that SC has never really been big on though, which is the idea of abilities which affect your opponent on the PLAYER side, not the GAMEPLAY side.
What if LotV changelings caused the UI to make the "your units are under attack" warning randomly? Dumb examples, but the point - of abilities messing with the player/UI rather than the units/buildings, is one not touched at all (except for Hallucination, I suppose).
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On April 07 2015 23:05 Vexon wrote:
Just a thought on the warning sound - If it creates a map-wide shriek for 50/50, then it totally might be worth building them defensively, just to freak your opponent out. Talk about Zerg being scary O.o
This does bring attention to an idea that SC has never really been big on though, which is the idea of abilities which affect your opponent on the PLAYER side, not the GAMEPLAY side.
What if LotV changelings caused the UI to make the "your units are under attack" warning randomly? Dumb examples, but the point - of abilities messing with the player/UI rather than the units/buildings, is one not touched at all (except for Hallucination, I suppose).
http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Shrieker
WoL alpha had some really cool concepts(even though it was difficult to make them work).
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I wouldn't discount this idea that readily. The only issue it presents are in the numbers, which can be fine-tuned. Its the concept that does indeed (at least in theory) seem to work.
If you build multiple nydus networks, they can spawn multiple nydus worms… this would present an issue for abusing the fast (3sec?) build time of each worm… but at the same time, you've invested heavily in your nydus networks and worms, reducing your overall army size. I don't think this is a huge problem, if you unload 9 units out of the two nydus worms, get in an opponent's mineral line, kill some workers before they run, and then see their army coming back… you need to run… which you can, but you only did some damage, for 50minerals/50gas x 2 for each worm.
One of the interesting issues is that if unloading time is based on number of units alone, you will never want to send zerglings through. If it is based on supply, then you see more interesting factors at play. I think supply would make more sense. Something along the lines of 1 sec per supply.
With this "new" supply-based-nydus I think the most effective use of this version would be mineral-line harassment units. I could see unloading 1-2 lurkers quickly, and getting them behind a mineral line, or attempting to get 3 banelings out ASAP and roll on into a mineral line.
Anyway, I think this idea is worth more discussion than the average person is giving it. If it doesn't tickle your fancy right away, then just play with some of the numbers.
Edit:
After i posted, i read some of the posts that were made while i posted.
If overlap between overlords and nydus appears to be an issue, i would propose that overlord cargo upgrades are made significantly cheaper, but take a hell of a lot longer. That way, you can have this tool as your earlier game drop-harass style transport. Then when you hit lair tech, you start overlord drops early, but it will take until much later in the game before the upgrade finishes, and the "doom-drop" style of transport becomes available. I think if the upgrade for overlord transport is made cheaper, then it can be chosen more readily, but ideally you wouldn't want the possibility of early-mid-game overlords dropping your main and natural with banelings at the same time, so a longer research time (much longer?) would be nice.
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One of the interesting issues is that if unloading time is based on number of units alone, you will never want to send zerglings through. If it is based on supply, then you see more interesting factors at play. I think supply would make more sense. Something along the lines of 1 sec per supply.
Yeh I agree that might make a bit more sense as it would create more options in terms of which units you send through (but my idea is so much easier in the editor ^^).
When I responded previously to cargo suggestions it was under the impression that you could only have a max number of supply through it (as in overlord drops). But I think the real variables that Blizzard should look at is the BT time which can be heavily reduced if you increase the unload time significantly.
Regardless of how exactly that is implemented, this can make the Nydus really fun and less gimmicky.
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4713 Posts
I'm actually of the opinion that it was a mistake by Blizzard to allow creep to also give speed. It promotes some pretty bad behavior from zerg when they have both creep speed and speed upgrades for units. I can sorta understand the reasons given that they needed to invent another way to give them defenders advantage due to the lack of it in SC2 (no high ground advantage and existence of warp ins), but in feels like sloppy and narrow design.
I think we should just bury the idea that Nydus could ever be a good offensive option, its too polarizing, its either way too efficient or way too inefficient. Creep speed should be removed and the Nydus should go back to the function it served in BW.
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On April 07 2015 20:58 _fool wrote:
Ah, I misread the "to 50/50 from 100/100" as the other way around.
Light harass is a good idea, yes. But I still like the versatility that the old nydus had, where you quickly move armies (to defend bases, or to get slow units to the front quickly). I'd like both to be an option, though not necessarily from the same tunnel type.
Also, the 200/200 investment in the initial nydus node is what prevents me from using it. If that were cheaper, I'd alway have one available in longer games, as escape route/counter mechanism. Maybe tweak that somewhat?
Hm, tunnel types. Hell, why not? Maybe we don't even need that. What if there was
a) the nydus network itself has its costs reduced so that it can then be used to connect multiple bases *
b) there are 2 types of worms: one medium cost with a lot of hp that takes quite a long time to build that you can use to connect bases, and another one u can use to harass enemy expansions. low cost, low hp, no invulnerability.
* which would kinda work well with the hole "expand more" vibe of LOTV. After all if you need to take so many bases, creep spread will be an issue for zerg even depending on map size
I don't like the use of the nydus to all-in that much anyway. But I thinks its the most underdeveloped "unit" in the game for harass.
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On April 08 2015 03:07 Destructicon wrote:
I'm actually of the opinion that it was a mistake by Blizzard to allow creep to also give speed. It promotes some pretty bad behavior from zerg when they have both creep speed and speed upgrades for units. I can sorta understand the reasons given that they needed to invent another way to give them defenders advantage due to the lack of it in SC2 (no high ground advantage and existence of warp ins), but in feels like sloppy and narrow design.
I think we should just bury the idea that Nydus could ever be a good offensive option, its too polarizing, its either way too efficient or way too inefficient. Creep speed should be removed and the Nydus should go back to the function it served in BW.
The sad thing is things like this will just never happen. Blizzard wants to bring SC2 to that same spot BW ended up without making it all too much like brood war. Its natural of course for them to want to do their own thing so they can take pride in coming up with it instead of just copying brood war. But I feel like theyre trying so hard to do things NOT like they were in brood war that they might be overseeing valid options.
That's why so many half of the units now are weird semi brood war copies and the rest are silly things they came up with themselves, and the two sides have a lot of overlap. I think having lurkers and swarm hosts and broodmothers is really just extremely silly at this point.
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On April 08 2015 03:07 Destructicon wrote:
I'm actually of the opinion that it was a mistake by Blizzard to allow creep to also give speed. It promotes some pretty bad behavior from zerg when they have both creep speed and speed upgrades for units. I can sorta understand the reasons given that they needed to invent another way to give them defenders advantage due to the lack of it in SC2 (no high ground advantage and existence of warp ins), but in feels like sloppy and narrow design.
I think we should just bury the idea that Nydus could ever be a good offensive option, its too polarizing, its either way too efficient or way too inefficient. Creep speed should be removed and the Nydus should go back to the function it served in BW.
Even with no creep nydus would never ever be used defensively. Its too expensive for one thing, and has too little hp for another. 8 stimmed marines will run in and kill the nydus way before you have time to use it to bring units to the defense, and the cost makes it vastly more inefficient than defending with mutalisks and lings.
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I'd much rather remove Overlord drops and keep the Nydus how it was in WoL and HotS, and just lower its cost.
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They could move nydus to hive and buff its health and armor so it's harder to prevent from going up (I'm thinking like 8 armor and 700 health or sth). I think both nydus and hive tech zerg need some love, but strong nydus on lair would be way too good with how Zerg works.
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Seems to me like making Nydus require a Hive solves all of these issues.
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4713 Posts
On April 08 2015 05:27 goswser wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2015 03:07 Destructicon wrote:
I'm actually of the opinion that it was a mistake by Blizzard to allow creep to also give speed. It promotes some pretty bad behavior from zerg when they have both creep speed and speed upgrades for units. I can sorta understand the reasons given that they needed to invent another way to give them defenders advantage due to the lack of it in SC2 (no high ground advantage and existence of warp ins), but in feels like sloppy and narrow design.
I think we should just bury the idea that Nydus could ever be a good offensive option, its too polarizing, its either way too efficient or way too inefficient. Creep speed should be removed and the Nydus should go back to the function it served in BW. Even with no creep nydus would never ever be used defensively. Its too expensive for one thing, and has too little hp for another. 8 stimmed marines will run in and kill the nydus way before you have time to use it to bring units to the defense, and the cost makes it vastly more inefficient than defending with mutalisks and lings.
Its too expensive now because its been balanced around being a offensive tool. If it was made a defensive tool I could forsee the gas cost of the network and the worm itself going down significantly, maybe even removing it entirely.
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Definitely a better idea than the current LotV Nydus.
My own take:
Nydus Network:
- Move the Nydus Network to Hive tech. Same stats and cost.
Nydus Worm:
- Increased Armor while spawning only
- No longer generates creep when spawned.
- Decrease cost from 100/100 -> 100/25
- Increase the enter and unload speed
- Loses 10hp/unload on-creep, 20hp/unload off-creep
Reasoning:
Less of a hit/miss investment on the Zerg's part while being more manageable for the opponent to deal with given the higher tech-level and the fact that worms eventually collapse as they unload units. This also keeps your idea of making them less desirable for transporting low-quality units in high number (lings).
The load/unload increase combined with a reduced cost makes it a more desirable defensive and reinforcement option when using immobile comps like roach/hydra or BL/Infestor.
Finally, I think having the nydus at Hive helps reduce the overlap with drops. Also encourages synergy with drops since there's a noticeable benefit to spawning nydus worms on creep.
Overlords drop lurkers/lings into base -> Overlords generate creep -> spawn nydus for escape and/or further reinforcement.
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On April 08 2015 06:04 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2015 05:27 goswser wrote:On April 08 2015 03:07 Destructicon wrote:
I'm actually of the opinion that it was a mistake by Blizzard to allow creep to also give speed. It promotes some pretty bad behavior from zerg when they have both creep speed and speed upgrades for units. I can sorta understand the reasons given that they needed to invent another way to give them defenders advantage due to the lack of it in SC2 (no high ground advantage and existence of warp ins), but in feels like sloppy and narrow design.
I think we should just bury the idea that Nydus could ever be a good offensive option, its too polarizing, its either way too efficient or way too inefficient. Creep speed should be removed and the Nydus should go back to the function it served in BW. Even with no creep nydus would never ever be used defensively. Its too expensive for one thing, and has too little hp for another. 8 stimmed marines will run in and kill the nydus way before you have time to use it to bring units to the defense, and the cost makes it vastly more inefficient than defending with mutalisks and lings. Its too expensive now because its been balanced around being a offensive tool. If it was made a defensive tool I could forsee the gas cost of the network and the worm itself going down significantly, maybe even removing it entirely.
I still think it will rarely be used as its just easier to move them around. It will kinda function as an apm-waster w/ very little reward.
Again, the reason we had defensive Nydus in BW was becasue zerg didn't have such an easy time gaining map control. Zerg had a ton less larva.
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It would be way too situational, lurkers, ravagers or infestors thats really all that it could be used for. If this idea would fly I would advice removing the nydus sound ( the reason players were warned about nyduses were due to the extreme danger that it no longer poses) This way it could be used to slowly release at least a handful of units in the fog of war or if the player was not paying attention.
I don't know if you had planned that but I would make entering into the nydus instantaneous and I would buff up the hp of the nydus to maybe the 80 range. This way you could make a nydus as a way of saving a fleeing army, you can't move your army aggresivelly like you could before but you can retreat fast if so choose.
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This way you could make a nydus as a way of saving a fleeing army, you can't move your army aggresivelly like you could before but you can retreat fast if so choose.
Is this really needed for zerg though?
It would be way too situational, lurkers, ravagers or infestors thats really all that it could be used for.
I don't agree thats way too situational. Those units are gonna see quite freqeunt usage in LOTV. And ofc as someone else suggested, the unload time could be related to supply cost instead. The main thing here to take away is a signficaint reduction in unload-time in order to make the BT much much faster.
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150/200 for the network
50/50 for the worm
+ often some cost to even get vision for the nydus
I feel like it doesn't really serve the purpose of a harass-tool in creating a lot of costefficiency. It's a late harass-tool, probably mainly working well with lategame units due to the unload speed. As such, it becomes very hard to find the time to pay off for the investment costs if we also add that a Swarm Host, Lurker or Infestor (the most likely units for it I feel like) costs 150-200gas. Like, if you only do one worm with say 2infestors, that would be 550gas. You would need to do a lot of worms with a very nice damage output and really retain your units most of the time to get to a break-even point with the high investment imo. And as a rather late-tool, I'm not sure games last long enough to make that attractive.
Just mutas or flying locusts could probably do a better job with more strategical applications all around. It's actually very hard for me to imagine a good nydus worm usage at this point. A drop-like nydus sounds awesome, but it needs to be very cheap then, and just starting it off with 200gas already sounds like a no-go. And even just 50gas per worm is quite a lot given that a prism costs 0 and a medivac is a combat unit that even helps with the harass and you can sometimes retain.
Also with such short build time, you could spam a lot of nydus around in the lategame from a single network, which would circumvent the slow unload, at least in the lategame. And it would give zerg a form of infinite recalls from corner situations, unless the upload speed was also nerfed severely.
Maybe if it was like this:
- Nydus Network cost to 50/100 from 100/200
- Global Nydus Network cargo from infinity-->8
- Nydus Network unload time per unit decreased from 0.5 to 0.25 second
- Nydus Network upload time stays at 0.25seconds
- Nydus Worms are no longer connected to a Zerg players global nydus network --> they have their own cargo space of 8
- HP of Nydus Worm reduced from 200 to 40
- Nydus Worm build-time reduced to 3 seconds from 20 seconds
- Nydus Worm unload time per unit increased from 0.5 to 1 second
- Upon a spawning worm finishing, all units are removed from the Global Nydus Network cargo and get added into the spawned nydus worm
- No invulnerability when building of course
Idea behind it:
The Nydus Worm is very cheap, but limited to transporting the up to 8 units that are currently loaded into a nydus network. The transport is a kamikaze mission, no way back.
Same as with Hider's suggestion, the Nydus Worm is very vulnerable but spawns fast and can be spawned very frequently. Since it is limited to 8units anyways, the unload time is lower than in Hider's suggestion, but still higher than right now which sounds fair given the very fast spawning time. --> it scales better with the opponents reaction, it's not always "all units get into the base" or "no units get into the base" so reaction time matters. But it may still be worth it to nydus a bunch of cracklings in, because at worst you lose 300minerals and they might actually all make it out, which with 3second unload would take 24seconds+3second spawning.
The network itself can now also be used better defensively. You can build two networks at two bases for 200/200 (instead of the current 250/300 for network+worm) and since the unload and upload time match now at 0.25seconds, a skilled player can quickly transport between bases by making units unload as they enter thereby not being limited to only transporting 8units from network to network.
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OK how about we are going absolutely crazy with that Nydus change idea.
Here is my turn to the new Nydus Worm.
Keep the cost for the Nydus Building but move the ability to spawn the head to the Overseer.
The Overseer "drops" a marker (mechanic is similar to dropping a changeling) for the worm and it will break out (maybe after a delay), still killable, but will be rewarding if you are able to keep your multitasking up.
Or let the worm build a unit which is capable of doing that, and the larva mechanic wont break the game.
Pro:
- It's counterable with good map awareness like any other drop
- Cost of the Overseer/ Unit will compensate the lack of the original Head cost
- you can tweak the Energy cost for balancing
- you can have more than one nydus head on the map
- Toss can feedback
- making Overseers more useful
Con
- do we really want mass Nydus worms all over the map?
- paranoia
- ...
discuss away maybe you like my idea or see any other problems.
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The problem I see with this is pros will only use infestors to harass. Spawn infestors everywhere, vomit free units, and then back to safety of the nydus.
Don't think they will use it with ultras or lurkers because there's the risk of losing the nydus since it's hp is lower, and therefore risk of losing expensive units if the nydus is sniped. Plus it's doable to move away your workers and save them from the harass and then kill nydus/ultra and lurkers, while it's inefficient to deal with free units everywhere.
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Honestly zerg is just too gas intensive across the board atm. I am not sure Nydus need a gas-tweak if units such as Lurkers, Vipers and Infestors become less gas-intensive.
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i would prefer a hive upgrade for nydus so u can create an air only nydus or ground nydus.
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I like the idea of making it a consistently used ability throughout the game but a carrying capacity would be beneficial for this sort of thing. I'd actually keep unload time .5 seconds and just make the cap at say 10 units/8 supply.
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the numbers are ridiculous. But I kinda get the point of your suggestion. Sneaking in specialized units doing special (gimmicky) tactics, its pretty good, But kinda contradicts the nature of zerg, which is Quantity > Quality,.
How about make the loading/unloading time related to the supply of the unit.
ex. 1 supply unit faster loading/unloading , 8 supply slower loading/unloading
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The only reason the nydus is so problematic is because the rushes for it are so effective. It should be Hive Tech.
Honestly, once it's Hive Tech you can dramatically reduce the cost so that it can be more all-purpose.
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Really, the aspect where the nydus is used for these counter attacks or all ins has never really appealed me. I'd personally like to see a nydusnetwork that just connects bases and maybe increases the reinforcement speed, or allows drones to evacuate. I'd probably be more interesting, and could be a strategical choice if you are going for some slower units, so that you don't suffer as much from their immobility.
Maybe this could be achieved by making the nydusworm require creep to be deployed (its still doable to use it offensively with overlords dropping creep then) and then drastically reduce its cost, maybe to 100 minerals, or 50/50, or maybe even 50 minerals.
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I just thought of an idea where you could also have a burrowed Nydus Worm that doesn't make a sound and doesn't quite come quite to the surface, but you can only unload burrowed Roaches and burrowed Infestors out of it, and also it doesn't spread creep.
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EPT
