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LotV Beta - TL Strategy first impressions - Page 4

Forum Index > Legacy of the Void
269 CommentsPost a Reply
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y0su
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
Finland7871 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-05 03:43:12
April 05 2015 03:40 GMT
#61
On April 05 2015 12:27 TiberiusAk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2015 04:05 digmouse wrote:
Agree on the expansion part, it feels very much unlike in BW or even HotS where you should be planning to expand to benefit from it, it actually feels rushy to expand just because you are 100% going to die if you do not.

Thanks for such a thoughtful and detailed write up, TL strat team! I look forward to reading the next ones.

Y'all are probably planning to address this in the first economy article, but: Do you think the issue quoted above could be addressed by adding back the removed 750 minerals to the 1500 mineral patches? (So bases would be half 750 minerals, and half 2250 mineral patches.) That would make the total resources per base the same as heart of the swarm, but still reward expansion with better mining efficiency.

Phrasing the question another way: do slower-expanding players die because they mined out their entire main base (starvation), or because they mined out all the 750 mineral patches (lower income in general)?

this is an interesting idea... (for the sake of simple numbers I'd say 1k and 2k)

on a similar topic, when I play terran, one of the things I'm running into is placement of different patches. In HotS I used to only mule the far patches (slower return, but you don't have to pull your mules). Now I'm either wasting minerals, using more apm to pull mules, or mining out my already small patches quicker. I'd like to see more maps use a split of close and far full and half patches. (I'm also using supply call-down a lot more...)
Doc Daneeka
Profile Joined March 2010
United States577 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-05 04:35:22
April 05 2015 04:29 GMT
#62
I am slightly concerned about the way this new economic model seems to be choking some strategies out, but it's so refreshing after years of sim city followed by one big death ball vs death ball engagement after 30 minutes. What I'm seeing on streams is constant confrontation with small to medium amounts of units and tons of micro-dependent tempo swings. That aspect of LotV is basically what people have been asking for all along.

Also, the difficulty of teching up is kind of cool in that it makes actually getting the upgrade a big achievement that can swing the game quite significantly, instead of just being a hoop you jump through every single game. The difference between adrenal glands lings and non-adrenal lings is mind-boggling, but more than once I've seen the zerg die while that upgrade is still researching, and it's hard to find the gas to put towards upgrades when there's constant fighting and every unit counts. You have to be certain that the upgrade will save your ass.

I don't think it should be as extreme as it is now, but I think the idea is correct. If a little of the decision-making behind taking expansions is lost, it might be worth it if the game overall is significantly more fun to watch and play in basically every other aspect.

We should also keep in mind that this is essentially late alpha, and blizzard will be getting real player data and player feedback for longer than a normal beta. We should definitely let them know about these issues, but be careful what you wish for: if we act really angry and derisive, they may just give us HotS again.
payed off security
Joedaddy
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States1948 Posts
April 05 2015 05:36 GMT
#63
I read the title and got excited! I read the first couple of paragraphs and got even more excited! I got to the part about protoss being weak, and was like "I wonder who wrote this...?" *sees Teoita* *sighs* The most evil protoss villain of them all!!!

I'll wait on a more trustworthy Terran before....
I might be the minority on TL, but TL is the minority everywhere else.
Endymion
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States3701 Posts
April 05 2015 05:43 GMT
#64
i liked the comments on the 12 worker change, i still can't believe that that's what they decided to change (along side mineral amounts in patches).

Have you considered the MMO-Champion forum? You are just as irrational and delusional with the right portion of nostalgic populism. By the way: The old Brood War was absolutely unplayable
BronzeKnee
Profile Joined March 2011
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-05 06:22:24
April 05 2015 06:01 GMT
#65
On April 05 2015 04:09 TheDwf wrote:
All of this stems from the fact that Blizzard has still not understood at all the dual root of all the current issues. How ironic considering they had every material needed within the SC1 experience.


Great post Dwf.

BW became what it is in large part due to random chance. It happened to be balanced well with good mechanics, but like the universe, it was not by intelligent design that it turned out that way. For instance, if July hadn't done his muta-micro tricks (which Blizzard never intended) the game wouldn't be what it is.

But I'm so happy to see many more critical voices this time around. Therefore I am hopeful that maybe the SC2 community won't just accept whatever Blizzard gives them.
BEARDiaguz
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Australia2362 Posts
April 05 2015 06:35 GMT
#66
On April 05 2015 14:36 Joedaddy wrote:
I read the title and got excited! I read the first couple of paragraphs and got even more excited! I got to the part about protoss being weak, and was like "I wonder who wrote this...?" *sees Teoita* *sighs* The most evil protoss villain of them all!!!

I'll wait on a more trustworthy Terran before....


Did you read past the 'special thanks to' bit?
ProgamerAustralian alcohol user follow @iaguzSC2
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
April 05 2015 07:14 GMT
#67
It almost feels to me like no matter what Blizzard does, it's not going to be 'good enough' for already jaded fans who are just angry in general.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
bhfberserk
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada390 Posts
April 05 2015 07:29 GMT
#68
This is a very different feel from BW, when it was possible for mech, terran bio (vs zerg) and protoss (vs zerg) to stay on two bases looking for openings and opportunities for a while before needing to take a third and/or fourth.


It is pretty much the first week of beta. I am sure this time Blizzard is willing to make drastic changes if the economy is not working. (As they already have pushed LOTV quite far for day 1 Beta) But follow the theory from BW is not necessarily the right way to do it either. If terran mech is allow to stay on two base, it will just ended up a lot of turtling again simply because the units in SC2 works completely differently.

It is not entirely a bad thing to force players to expand, as this is a resource base strategy game. Planning ahead to deny/defend at resource locations is part of the game.
Gwavajuice
Profile Joined June 2014
France1810 Posts
April 05 2015 07:40 GMT
#69
Great read TL guys and tx TheDwf for wording things much better than I did

Economy is all, the units balance is a totally secondary subject, I personnaly don't give a flying f' about new units ability for now, beta tester should only focus on the impact on the new economy right now.

Once economy is fixed, balancing new units will be easy.
Dear INno and all the former STX boys.
OtherWorld
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
France17333 Posts
April 05 2015 07:42 GMT
#70
On April 05 2015 16:29 bhfberserk wrote:
Show nested quote +
This is a very different feel from BW, when it was possible for mech, terran bio (vs zerg) and protoss (vs zerg) to stay on two bases looking for openings and opportunities for a while before needing to take a third and/or fourth.


It is pretty much the first week of beta. I am sure this time Blizzard is willing to make drastic changes if the economy is not working. (As they already have pushed LOTV quite far for day 1 Beta) But follow the theory from BW is not necessarily the right way to do it either. If terran mech is allow to stay on two base, it will just ended up a lot of turtling again simply because the units in SC2 works completely differently.

It is not entirely a bad thing to force players to expand, as this is a resource base strategy game. Planning ahead to deny/defend at resource locations is part of the game.

Encouraging players to expand, as in, rewarding them for expanding, feels to me superior to forcing players to expand, that is, punishing them for not expanding. Diversity in playstyles is a massive part of a good strategy game.
In other words, replace LotV econ with reduced efficiency and enjoy the results :D
Used Sigs - New Sigs - Cheap Sigs - Buy the Best Cheap Sig near You at www.cheapsigforsale.com
Serimek
Profile Joined August 2011
France2274 Posts
April 05 2015 08:09 GMT
#71
On April 05 2015 04:09 TheDwf wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Contracting time = less control from the user, always. Contracting time = less control = more forced mistakes = increased randomness. Strategy relies on planning, which means enough time to think. If the RT part of RTS is violently compressed then the S withers away too by force. Where the delicate balance and tangle between “mechanics” and “strategy” relies on making sure that mistakes occur both from the user (reasonably) and his opponent (whose main job is to actively try to force more mistakes from his second nemesis), the current direction LotV is taking is very dangerous. The new environment skews the original allocation to the point that players will essentially defeat themselves by their simple activity… of playing (here, during the explosive development phase). The interaction between players that creates the game and its tension is at an active risk of being laminated. With the current LotV rhythm Blizzard is actually killing the very genre of Starcraft.

All of this stems from the fact that Blizzard has still not understood at all the dual root of all the current issues. How ironic considering they had every material needed within the SC1 experience. All they had to do was to load one of those things called “fast maps” and think. Actually, I'm now almost sure that's what they did, but they forgot that in RTS “time” is interconnected with “strategy”. The oldest of us may remember that the SC1 official ladder was originally set on “fast” instead of “fastest,” making it unbearably slow and sluggish (yet, in a pleasant way, with more control in the advanced phases of the game). That is, before bots and cheating completely ruined it.

The SC2 user economy only revolves around three aspects, which are Accuracy, Attention and Knowledge. All of them are tested through the trial of Time. Metagaming is the manipulative application of one's reflection about this economy (not “the current standardization of the Knowledge,” despite the confusion of the common sense).

Multitasking is the primary and highest “skill stretcher” because of the time constraint combining those elements. This is why camping into 1a out of zero attention tools is universally despised. But the fundamental problem is neither “aggression” nor “defense”. Blizzard has understood nothing of why aggression can be good or defence can turn bad, which is why they have given birth to various horrors that mutilate the game because of their unbeatable operational effectiveness in either of those sides. Similarly, they have not understood that over-contracting time can only disfigure the necessary RTS equilibrium between “total control” (pure strategy) and “zero control” (pure luck).

SC2 already suffered a lot because of the wildness of the increased rhythm. The “excitement doctrina” ended up trying to artificially conceal the shallowness of its new strategic conceptions with a violent contraction of time, just like the immense plot holes of all the bad blockbusters of today are partially hidden by shiny “new” special effects and sheer propaganda. They call this bogus approach “innovation”. In their fantasy, it's probably supposed to look flash. LotV is currently going even further this way, with the consequence that the competition will further collapse thanks to the narrowing of the array of skill. The theoretical skill ceiling shall be higher than ever, yet of course absolutely unreachable; thus the practical skill gap, i.e. what humans can achieve best in reality, will crumble.

[image loading]

This is what happens to skill when you contract time.

“Skill gap” is the height of the area between the “skill floor” and the “practical skill ceiling”. The theoretical skill ceiling is considered infinite and unreachable, and thus does not matter at all; you could indeed always micro each of your individual Zealots but the absolutely massive diminishing returns make it worthless in practice. What matters is thus the practical skill ceiling, i.e. how much you get for what you invest. Contracting time does raise the skill floor but it decreases the practical skill ceiling too. Therefore, it contracts the skill gap itself.

Think about driving a car. What happens at 30 km/h? You're still in control. Now increase to 50? Still fully doable, but your margin of error does decrease. Now increase to 70, 100, 150, 300, 500—at some point the accident can no longer be avoided and even the best drivers enter the realm of the “unforgivable”. The simple fact that you maintain your driving activity makes the crash unavoidable. This mechanism is “the contraction of time”. Blitz chess is a dazzling example of that: pressured by time, world-caliber players start making absolutely grotesque, newbie-like blunders. Contracting time decreases the quality of play, even if the competition can somewhat stand for a while (though increasingly turned inwards, towards oneself). Should you proceed for too long in that direction, skill itself would start to disappear, replaced with the functional equivalent of luck. Since SC2 is already an RTS, the “time factor” is retroceded elsewhere. Speed of development is the name of the game. In LotV, the primary banner of this mechanism is embodied in economy.

I hope people don't get dumb and the crude attempts at diverting users from the potential massive decrease in the quality of the game with shiny gimmicks don't succeed. The classic balance debates between Protoss, Terran, and Zerg are, for instance, absolutely irrelevant regarding this general movement. Dumb users shall be jealous of “the shiny tools others get” and will ask Blizzard the same for “their camp,” failing to realize that they're completely falling into the oldest trap on Earth called “divide and rule”. People should instead unite and camp Blizzard's door so they have a playable RTS first. Otherwise, they will only get (1) an even worse game, (2) an even worse competitive scene, (3) an even worse balance.

Playability and thus “enjoyability” come from control over various aspects. This is why people involved in games of pure chance systematically develop absurd habits and beliefs in order to recreate the control they no longer have.

Contracting time = less control. Always, everywhere. Sometimes it is needed, sometimes not. Control doesn't have to be absolute, but there are thresholds to respect. There are different temporalities within the game and Blizzard has apparently failed to identify them. The quality of the game flows from its “control architecture”.

May I kindly mention that there were people who warned people from this all along? They were deliberately confused with “elitists” and mocked for being “neophobic” or “nostalgic”. Yet we see who was right at the end of the journey. But the journey is not completely done. Therefore, some people will find it smart to fall again and again into the old traps of “one game vs the other” or the very fruitful “give them time, it's only beta” attitude which sows expectations to inevitably reap disappointment. Delighted with the delicate scent of novelty, some will perhaps be naive enough to trust again the holy name of the Brand, as if those topics weren't years old, as if similar problems hadn't arisen before in other games, as if other sectors weren't concerned, as if those issues weren't significant of a more global movement.

At any rate, what do users have to lose in making their voices heard?

Since when do words kill?


One of the best post in TL ever.
SC2 is the best game to watch and was the best to play before I grew old and slow...
RenSC2
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States1056 Posts
April 05 2015 08:13 GMT
#72
Just a quick possibility that is not the final fix to the way the economy works, but might be useful.

What if all workers cost 0.5 supply?

So, 22 workers would only cost 11 supply. For 11 supply, as opposed to 22, you could run another base. That means a maxed out army on 3 fully operational bases would be 167 supply as opposed to current 134. And a maxed out army on 4 fully operational bases would be 156 as opposed to the current 112.

I think 156 supply competes with 167 a lot better than 112 competes with 134 and the 1/3rd more income becomes a much more tempting option on the risk/reward calculation.

The side-effect is that it probably makes workers as front-line fighters a bigger thing (pull the boys), but they'd still be very mineral inefficient fighters.

----

Second topic rather than make two posts in a row. I think starting with 12 workers helps get us into the interesting part of the game (in non-cheese games) a lot better. It removes the unnecessary downtime of the game in typical macro games, which I think is a step in the right direction (even if Blizzard didn't completely hit the mark).

The problem is that the current scouting methods are all based on the old 6 worker model. In the 6 worker model, an overlord could usually get to the opponent's base on time to give you valuable information. Or you could wait for a reaper or first pair of lings to make the first scout. What we may need to see is an instant sending of a worker to the opponent's base as a scout right at the start of the game. You only lose 1/12th of your income as opposed to 1/6th and you should get your scouting information in time to make good strategic decisions without unnecessarily lengthening the game as the current system does.

DWF is right that a compression of time can kill strategy, but that only is valid when you are interacting (attacking, defending, scouting) with your opponent. Complete downtime without interaction adds nothing to strategy. Removing that downtime does not remove any strategy and overall creates a better experience for the players and the viewers.
Playing better than standard requires deviation. This divergence usually results in sub-standard play.
Destructicon
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
4713 Posts
April 05 2015 08:24 GMT
#73
To be honest I'm not happy with how the 12 worker change has made most 1 base cheeses obsolete. The point of these was to keep players honest and punish greed. Well, what happens when greed becomes the standard, what happens when greed versus safety is no longer a strategic choice?

If your answer was, the game gets boring then you'd be correct.

Also halving worker supply won't actually fix the LotV economy, it will just make deathballs bigger since the optimal number of workers still remains 66 to 72 but now you have 33 to 36 more supply to work with. Raising the supply cap does the exact same thing.

The change that actually rewards you for expanding without punishing you is if the second set of mineral workers actually mines worst.

For example, if you have a worker mining alone from a mineral patch then his efficiency is at 100%, if you add a second worker the efficiency drops to 75% for both workers and if you add a 3rd the efficiency drops to 50%. If that sounds familiar its because it was the BW model and it made it so that having 66 workers on 3 bases vs 66 on 6 was a radical difference in income and it also changed the dynamics of armies completely.
WriterNever give up, never surrender! https://www.youtube.com/user/DestructiconSC
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-05 08:52:20
April 05 2015 08:46 GMT
#74
On April 05 2015 14:36 Joedaddy wrote:
I read the title and got excited! I read the first couple of paragraphs and got even more excited! I got to the part about protoss being weak, and was like "I wonder who wrote this...?" *sees Teoita* *sighs* The most evil protoss villain of them all!!!

I'll wait on a more trustworthy Terran before....


If you had also read the article you'd know this isn't me ranting about balance, this is the impressions of every tl strategy member with access to the beta. Everyone agrees that protoss seems weak, no matter what race they play

It removes the unnecessary downtime of the game in typical macro games, which I think is a step in the right direction


Maybe, but it also impacts much, much more about the game. Every single research and building timing needs to be looked at, which is a massive undertaking and essentially implies rebuilding sc2 from the ground up. Again, we aren't immediately saying yes to no about any change, but it's very important to point that out.

@Destruction: the 12 worker start doesn't necessarily work like that, it's a very reductive way of looking at it. It's just a massive function of how early something is available. Ravagers are amazing for early all-ins because they are so easy to get to, while something like blink or warpgate is terrible because it takes longer to get compared to your opponent's build. One has several research "gates" to get past, the other is easily obtained. If i had to take a guess i'd say some kind of proxy cyclone build is also probably really good. This isn't related to unit numbers, it's just that both those things are really fucking good and really fucking easy to get.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
RenSC2
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States1056 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-05 09:17:15
April 05 2015 09:09 GMT
#75
On April 05 2015 17:24 Destructicon wrote:
To be honest I'm not happy with how the 12 worker change has made most 1 base cheeses obsolete. The point of these was to keep players honest and punish greed. Well, what happens when greed becomes the standard, what happens when greed versus safety is no longer a strategic choice?

If your answer was, the game gets boring then you'd be correct.

I do enjoy 1 base cheeses as a viable strategic option. I don't necessarily think that 12 workers have made them completely obsolete, merely changed. Proxy 2 rax is probably dead (although I saw it work on Vibe's stream not too long ago... he botched the defense). However, proxy 3 or 4 rax is more viable with increased workers supporting it at home. It's probably also significantly more risky and the likelihood of transitioning out of it is not as good as proxy 2 rax. So it's possible the risk/reward will be too poor.

However, there will always be an overarching strategy of greed > safe > cheese > greed in an RTS such as SC. If 1-base cheese is not viable against fast expand, then 1-base cheese goes away, which prompts player to go fast 3-base or even 4-base and that becomes the standard. Suddenly 2-base quick rushes may become the cheese. The goalposts may change, but the basic strategic decisions don't.

On April 05 2015 17:24 Destructicon wrote:
Also halving worker supply won't actually fix the LotV economy, it will just make deathballs bigger since the optimal number of workers still remains 66 to 72 but now you have 33 to 36 more supply to work with. Raising the supply cap does the exact same thing.

Has anyone ever argued against raising the supply cap? I know a lot of people have pushed for it. However, lowering worker supply does not merely raise the supply cap. It changes the ratio of the worker to the fighting units. If you could have 1 zealot or 4 workers mining for the same supply, that is very different from having 1 zealot or 2 workers mining for the same supply. It probably keeps an optimal base number, but probably raises that number from 3 to 4 or 5. It's not a magic bullet solution, but it's simple and makes things quite a bit better.

On April 05 2015 17:24 Destructicon wrote:
The change that actually rewards you for expanding without punishing you is if the second set of mineral workers actually mines worst.

For example, if you have a worker mining alone from a mineral patch then his efficiency is at 100%, if you add a second worker the efficiency drops to 75% for both workers and if you add a 3rd the efficiency drops to 50%. If that sounds familiar its because it was the BW model and it made it so that having 66 workers on 3 bases vs 66 on 6 was a radical difference in income and it also changed the dynamics of armies completely.

Yes, that works. Although, it appears that adding a 3rd worker adds absolutely nothing in the scenario as described. You're still at 150% efficiency whether you have 2 or 3 workers.

Couldn't you create the exact same thing in SC2 by allowing the CC to be closer to the mineral patches and then altering the mineral formations slightly to wrap around the CC in a tighter formation such that the max efficiency would be 150% (as opposed to the current 200% or more on further patches)?

That seems like something that people could test in the map editor quite easily.

edit:
On April 05 2015 17:46 Teoita wrote:
Show nested quote +
It removes the unnecessary downtime of the game in typical macro games, which I think is a step in the right direction

Maybe, but it also impacts much, much more about the game. Every single research and building timing needs to be looked at, which is a massive undertaking and essentially implies rebuilding sc2 from the ground up. Again, we aren't immediately saying yes to no about any change, but it's very important to point that out.

Yes, it does require a whole new rebalancing of all the researches and tech, which essentially requires rebalancing the game from the ground up (as is pretty evident from the beta). However, most of those changes can be done by changing a number in an editor at any time in the future. Removing the unnecessary downtime through a fundamental change in the game is not something that can easily be done once the final game goes live. Now is the time to strike.
Playing better than standard requires deviation. This divergence usually results in sub-standard play.
1nobody
Profile Joined May 2013
Czech Republic2040 Posts
April 05 2015 09:38 GMT
#76
First impression: Impact on viewership: pretty abysmall.
Dingodile
Profile Joined December 2011
4133 Posts
April 05 2015 09:42 GMT
#77
Wonderful "extracting time" post by Dwf. I am not sure why everyone thinks that faster is better than everyting else. sc2 is just too fast-paced compared to wc3 and sc:bw.
Just to make his driving car example better: if 30km/h is the best solution, wc3 is rather settled on 50km/h and sc2 rather 250km/h. Thats why I always feel the gameplay in sc2 is just a surface without any depth.
Grubby | ToD | Moon | Lyn | Sky
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-05 10:23:52
April 05 2015 10:22 GMT
#78
Maybe now is the time for Blizzard to undo some of those tech delays from earlier patches? If I recall, warp gate research time was increased and so was barracks and gateway build time. The robotics facility also takes quite long to warp in. Keep in mind that virtually all of these were changed because Blizzard kept testing the game on Steppes of War and because various proxy builds were too powerful.

A useful way of looking at the effect of the worker change is to state that every timing in the game which depends on a linear path is delayed, while those that can benefit from parallel paths are more powerful. If you have to move through every link in a chain to finally unlock e.g. banshees, this will now take longer than if you had the chance to convert your higher resource count into more barracks to build more marines in parallel. I think that as a basic rule, every unit which comes from a production facility you'll get more than one of, is now more powerful in the early game. The same probably goes for larva.

With regards to the effect on scouting, not only are overlords delayed to impede zerg scouting, sentry energy also comes later to prevent you from using hallucination in a timely fashion (so said HuK). I suspect reaper openings might be weaker, which removes a powerful terran scouting tool. Blizzard could make changes here, for instance the energy cost of hallucination could be lowered to 75 energy.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
April 05 2015 10:27 GMT
#79
That is exactly why just speeding research up is problematic. Scouting is already bad, and if you make things develop even quicker it may get to the point of it being pointless. In that case there's two outcomes: either it's possible to get a good enough read just by poking your opponent's front (like in WoL PvT), or the game degenerates into coin flips and massive build order advantages (like in PvP). Quickening research also compresses time even further, which is problematic as Dwf pointed out.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7031 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-05 10:47:27
April 05 2015 10:43 GMT
#80
On April 05 2015 19:27 Teoita wrote:
That is exactly why just speeding research up is problematic. Scouting is already bad, and if you make things develop even quicker it may get to the point of it being pointless. In that case there's two outcomes: either it's possible to get a good enough read just by poking your opponent's front (like in WoL PvT), or the game degenerates into coin flips and massive build order advantages (like in PvP). Quickening research also compresses time even further, which is problematic as Dwf pointed out.

I wasn't really thinking of promoting speeding up research, just the build time of the barracks and gateway. Those buildings are precursors to any strategy depending on tech, but I don't think they come into play when considering response time (which should not be too compressed, yes). The goal would be to arrive closer to HotS values for economy : tech balance.

You always have a certain window of time during which you need to scout your opponent's choice in tech to be able to appropriately respond, and contracting that window reduces the chance you can dynamically adjust to your opponent's choices. But I think that reducing barracks and gateway build time comes closest to leaving this intact while still buffing tech, because otherwise it might be problematic: how else would you redress the tech : economy balance given the LotV values?
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
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