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ZeromuS
Canada13410 Posts
IMO I can agree that the 6 workers or 7 you had to make HotS for a smooth build order (spending all minerals while always making workers) was too long when you compare it to how smooth and quick it is in LotV. I like that I'm not spending 2-3 minutes in game time making workers pre building. But are there better ways? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
On April 06 2015 02:15 ZeromuS wrote: I think people are confusing their feelings about the 12 worker start. IMO I can agree that the 6 workers or 7 you had to make HotS for a smooth build order (spending all minerals while always making workers) was too long when you compare it to how smooth and quick it is in LotV. I like that I'm not spending 2-3 minutes in game time making workers pre building. But are there better ways? Yes, we remove early game completely, and before the game each player can choose between different army compositions, and then they go directly into mid/late with these compositions and can adjust them afterwards..... Yeh okay, that was a bit of a joke, but tbh, it would be quite awesome as Sc2 first gets interesting once players are spread out over multiple bases with larger armies. | ||
Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
I mean if we go by the logic that early game is completely irrelveant, we might as well give players entire bases to start off with.... | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5225 Posts
On April 06 2015 02:20 Hider wrote: Yeh okay, that was a bit of a joke, but tbh, it would be quite awesome as Sc2 first gets interesting once players are spread out over multiple bases with larger armies. Is this what the majority of people think? I began to love Starcraft when I realized how difficult it was to master. During WOL, I had to earn my expansions as Protoss. 4 Gates, 3 rax play, the 1-1-1, ect... you didn't just get an expansion for free. You had to actually scout and make reads without the help of the MSC or Hallucinations, you had to figure out what was going on before you could just plop down a Nexus or you were taking a massive risk because one base play was strong. It wasn't overly strong, it was just strong. It took real skill, game knowledge (especially when it comes to reading what your opponent was doing with limited information) and micro to stop a lot of those all-ins. But in HOTS, you literally just press F and click on the Nexus, and that one base 3 rax build loses. No amount of skill on the Terran side changes that, so no one does that anymore. But what Blizzard did do was improve the power of Terran to kill workers, therefore you don't actually see an army coming anymore and build an army and actually have a real battle, you chase around Hellions and Widow Mines to keep them from killing workers. The funny thing is the result in the same. You see the 1-1-1 train coming and you lose the battle, you lose the game. You lose half your probes to Hellions, and you lose too; except there is no big battle. We went microing units in battles between armies, to ridiculous micro chasing games. For what purpose? If Blizzard doesn't want games ending early, then don't let them end early. But if they can end early, at least make it exciting, give us a climatic battle, where I can try to flank my opponents tanks sieging up my base and make plays. And if they don't want games to end early, Blizzard should just start everyone on multiple bases, especially if that is what people want. On April 05 2015 12:27 TiberiusAk wrote: Phrasing the question another way: do slower-expanding players die because they mined out their entire main base (starvation), or because they mined out all the 750 mineral patches (lower income in general)? On April 05 2015 12:28 Jer99 wrote: The latter I wonder if Blizzard really thought through the all complications that go with this change. To start, it is an instant buff to Zerg, because they out expand the other races. It also hurts Protoss the most, because they expand the least, and can't just float a Nexus to a new mineral field somewhere else. It has been a legitimate strategy for Terran players to get two bases, and then do everything they can to deny Protoss a third, and then when the Terran main runs out of minerals, just float it to another base and continue to starve out the Protoss. This change radically enhances that strategy. As soon as the 750 minerals dry up on the Protoss natural, it's game over. And that is just scratching the surface of the balance problems that change creates. | ||
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nyshak
Germany132 Posts
Is it fun to realize your opponent went 12 pool just because 6 zerglings enter your base? Scouting is something that should be rewarded. So if you scout at the right time you should be able to tell what your opponent is doing before it hits you. At the start of the game there is only one "right time". But I feel with 12 workes its obsolete. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
4 Gates, 3 rax play, the 1-1-1, ect... you didn't just get an expansion for free. You had to actually scout and make reads Honestly I think the majority of the playerbase dislikes the pokerelement in Sc2. When you have to guess whether its DT, Blink Stalkers, Oracles or Immortal-all in based on very limitted information, it imo becomes less of the Starcraft that I enjoy. I think strategic diversity should be about soft-counters and how you use the units in different ways. Not about "I build X and since you didn't have Y --> you instalose". | ||
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Umpteen
United Kingdom1570 Posts
There is no less time in lotv than in hots. There MAY be more that someone can do before you scout them, but there's always been a lot of options, including the bad things I do during that time. There will still be safe, standard play. Comparisons with chess, a turn based game where your moves must precisely counter those of your opponent one-for-one, are not valid. To paraphrase: all we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us. | ||
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On April 05 2015 04:09 TheDwf wrote: With the current LotV rhythm Blizzard is actually killing the very genre of Starcraft. This. Thank you for a great post dwf. On April 06 2015 03:38 Hider wrote: Honestly I think the majority of the playerbase dislikes the pokerelement in Sc2. When you have to guess whether its DT, Blink Stalkers, Oracles or Immortal-all in based on very limitted information, it imo becomes less of the Starcraft that I enjoy. I think strategic diversity should be about soft-counters and how you use the units in different ways. Not about "I build X and since you didn't have Y --> you instalose". Well there should be some give in the information available, which enhances the soft-counter unit versatility you mention. And which also affects overall strategy with build choice and risk taking based on possible threats from the opponent. Obviously instalose situations should be avoided though. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5225 Posts
On April 06 2015 03:38 Hider wrote: Honestly I think the majority of the playerbase dislikes the pokerelement in Sc2. When you have to guess whether its DT, Blink Stalkers, Oracles or Immortal-all in based on very limitted information, it imo becomes less of the Starcraft that I enjoy. I think strategic diversity should be about soft-counters and how you use the units in different ways. Not about "I build X and since you didn't have Y --> you instalose". That is how I felt in WOL before I began to learn how to make good reads. I don't think there was that much of a poker element at the end of WOL at all, unless people took blind economic risks (which ironically enough, were often best punished by one base play). Scouting was probably the skill I had refined the most. I had my Probes, and I used em to scout at certain specific times in every matchup to figure out what my opponent was doing. And the best part was, my opponent might actively work to deny scouting. The game of cat and mouse when it came to scouting wasn't pokerish at all. It was in fact skill based. And I think a lot of BW players didn't like it, because it wasn't about mechanics, it was about thinking and strategy. As Sun Tzu said: All warfare is based on deception. I would actively work to deceive my opponents regarding my build order. If they scouted as much as I did, and as well as I did, then my tricks wouldn't work. But people like to assume so they can focus on their mechanics. But now I just float my MSC over their base, and send out a Hallucination when I can, and I know that even if I don't scout well, I can just press F and click on my Nexus and hold a lot of timings. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12247 Posts
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kaitlyn
Canada10 Posts
On April 05 2015 09:48 NKexquisite wrote: If bio is no longer viable vs ultralisks/lings in the late game, what have Terran players been doing? Do they have to somehow transition into mech for late game? Sounds bizarre since the upgrades would be reset by this transition. hey! i sent you a PM, hope you received it, i'm awaiting your response  some cyclone/hellbat openers might force zerg to make roaches or a ton of units, maybe that will slow them down enough to keep bio viable, or at least not let zerg have too many ultras out! drops and denying bases will also become more powerful when so many more bases are necessary! | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
At some point you have to cut your losses and fashion SC2 around this notion of it being a streamlined, action-oriented, competitive e-sports game, -- since Blizzard is incapable of changing this direction anyhow. It would certainly help the competitive scene if Blizzard outright forced the majority of the games to be active, scrappy, six-base macrofests. | ||
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Leviance
Germany4079 Posts
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EatThePath
United States3943 Posts
On April 06 2015 04:34 Leviance wrote: Make it 8 starting workers! 12 is insane! 8 or 9 seems like a reasonable compromise that probably gives time to scout / develop with real early game timings but also removes about 1:00 of early game time | ||
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2013 Posts
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F0nze
United States26 Posts
On April 06 2015 04:07 Teoita wrote: The poker element of Starcraft - making reads and good guesses instead of having perfect information - is one of the things i enjoy the most. Indeed. I am appalled at the responses of some of TL users and vets saying early game is boring and that 12 workers is actually GOOD... what, what happened with Brood War, when it was just 4 workers. You didn't have any of the koreans complaining about how boring the early game was, or that there needs to be more workers. Sure, 6 is alright but 12.. and the argument I hear the most is "Well sc2 is a different game leave the past behind", notwithstanding that Blizzard has actually chosen to bring BACK a unit from BW .. While, me alone as a sc2 player, I don't have too much research done on the new expansion, but I just feel like they're destroying the essence of what Starcraft as an RTS and a game is entirely with gimmicky units and changes. Who thought of, hey, let's make half the mineral line run out first than the other half? Not somebody who plays sc2. | ||
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KeksX
Germany3634 Posts
On April 06 2015 04:39 F0nze wrote: While, me alone as a sc2 player, I don't have too much research done on the new expansion, but I just feel like they're destroying the essence of what Starcraft as an RTS and a game is entirely with gimmicky units and changes. Who thought of, hey, let's make half the mineral line run out first than the other half? Not somebody who plays sc2. How are they destroying the essence of SC2? You also realize there's still cheese and mindgames ye? I don't exactly get what your complaint is. The LotV games now already have a lot more downtime than they had on day 1 beta.. | ||
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xuanzue
Colombia1747 Posts
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KobraKay
Portugal4372 Posts
On April 06 2015 04:05 BronzeKnee wrote: That is how I felt in WOL before I began to learn how to make good reads. I don't think there was that much of a poker element at the end of WOL at all, unless people took blind economic risks (which ironically enough, were often best punished by one base play). Scouting was probably the skill I had refined the most. I had my Probes, and I used em to scout at certain specific times in every matchup to figure out what my opponent was doing. And the best part was, my opponent might actively work to deny scouting. The game of cat and mouse when it came to scouting wasn't pokerish at all. It was in fact skill based. And I think a lot of BW players didn't like it, because it wasn't about mechanics, it was about thinking and strategy. As Sun Tzu said: All warfare is based on deception. I would actively work to deceive my opponents regarding my build order. If they scouted as much as I did, and as well as I did, then my tricks wouldn't work. But people like to assume so they can focus on their mechanics. But now I just float my MSC over their base, and send out a Hallucination when I can, and I know that even if I don't scout well, I can just press F and click on my Nexus and hold a lot of timings. Wait what? Have you ever watched any BW game? Scouting is a key element of any BW game even in a game with 10 years of professional play without the rules constantly changing, i.e., without blizzard's interference with patches artificially changing things. Scouting was as important in BW as it ever was in SC2. . .and no, no BW player will tell you the scouting part of the game is boring because it is not about mechanics...hell you can even argue that keeping a scouting worker alive in the early game to scout is even more mechanic dependent than it is in sc2 and will give you the same level of information. Other than that, I agree with your points regarding the importance of the early game and scouting. | ||
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Isarios
United States153 Posts
Some people hate the harass style of Hots, I'd agree, its a little less interesting than straight-up battles. But it is action oriented. The early game does need to be shorter I think. This might be Starcraft blasphemy, but what about having resources and places to hold ON the map that aren't just bases so that you have to spread out your army more. Perhaps some AOE effects that discourage being able to mass your army and push. Nobody think towers. | ||
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