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Thanks to Reddit sleuths, everyone can try the LotV test maps by following instructions here. Note: This is not a beta key, it is simply access to Vs. AI and a Unit Tester. I have no idea how cool with this Blizzard is or is not, use at your own risk. |
On March 31 2015 20:24 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2015 19:51 KOtical wrote:On March 31 2015 19:35 Sapphire.lux wrote:
The Adept seems godly against bio and the Carrier special ability will be OP IMO.
The Ciclone is, i'm afraid, a Warhound 2.0. In the early game you use it's micro potential to compete and later in the game there seems to be little reason to build anything else. Hellbats + Ciclones with kiting deathball = Hellbats + Warhounds deathball. I hope i'm fantastically wrong but i feel the aspect of positional mech has once again passed Blizzard by. as far as i know cyclones dont shoot air?!?so you have a pretty good counter base at least lategame... They can hit air. There's no way this unit makes it out of the first balance patch, it's like a non-flying phoenix with autocast and the ability to shoot hit both air and ground and with longer effective range than a siege tank.
Reminds me of when locusts could hit air.
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On March 31 2015 20:50 Everlong wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2015 20:47 Teoita wrote:
The thing with the cyclone is i really just dont get what it's supposed to do. At blizzcon it looked like it just killed everything, and now it still seems like it's something that basically always works and has no weakness...or it ends up being mediocre against everything, and then it's useless. I believe it's the basic mech anti-air unit we've all been missing. I view it as the missing piece of puzzle that could potentialy make mech viable and hopefully you'll be able to move around map and you won't have to just turtle into 20 Ravens to get a shot at winning the game.
Its not just a missing anti air. It feels like anti-anything to be honest. Is this gonna end up like the infamous Warhound?
Mapctrl and anti-air seems a little too much?
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Just curious what opinions are since this was being discussed a bit.
When it's not rewarded to move the unit around during an engagement (besides a-moving) and/or the only abilities you can use on it are very simple + the unit doesn't have a specific synergy with a dropship.
So for instance if all you did with bio units were to press "T" and then a-move, they would be an a-move unit. However, because stim opens up for so many micro opportunities in terms of moving them around during an engagement, it's not an amove unit.
Immortals on the other hand will continue to be amovish as you a-move and then press the simple ability to boost their shield while standing still w/ them.
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In my mind the cyclone is a early/midgame map-control/harass unit. And it's design is driven by the need to micro it (and to counter the micro by the opponent). A-moving it useless in most cases, it's supposed to be effective when you keep it inside a narrow band of effectiveness. So, I'm thinking they want this in for high level players to distinguish themselves on both sides. And, as was said, such a unit is missing from the mech arsenal.
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Italy12248 Posts
On March 31 2015 20:54 Phaenoman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2015 20:50 Everlong wrote:On March 31 2015 20:47 Teoita wrote:
The thing with the cyclone is i really just dont get what it's supposed to do. At blizzcon it looked like it just killed everything, and now it still seems like it's something that basically always works and has no weakness...or it ends up being mediocre against everything, and then it's useless. I believe it's the basic mech anti-air unit we've all been missing. I view it as the missing piece of puzzle that could potentialy make mech viable and hopefully you'll be able to move around map and you won't have to just turtle into 20 Ravens to get a shot at winning the game. Its not just a missing anti air. It feels like anti-anything to be honest. Is this gonna end up like the infamous Warhound? Mapctrl and anti-air seems a little too much?
Warhound didn't have anti air iirc.
On March 31 2015 20:56 Ghanburighan wrote:
In my mind the cyclone is a early/midgame map-control/harass unit. And it's design is driven by the need to micro it (and to counter the micro by the opponent). A-moving it useless in most cases, it's supposed to be effective when you keep it inside a narrow band of effectiveness. So, I'm thinking they want this in for high level players to distinguish themselves on both sides. And, as was said, such a unit is missing from the mech arsenal.
It really isnt missing; early game map control/harassment is what hellions/hellbats do.
Immortals on the other hand will continue to be amovish as you a-move and then press the simple ability to boost their shield while standing still w/ them.
Except you dont, you need to focus the right targets with them
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On March 31 2015 20:00 JacobShock wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2015 19:56 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2015 19:53 m4cho wrote:
Where is all the beta streams? It's not even really day yet in all the US <.< Its noon in EU and I feel like its christmas.. and that I am 7 years old.
Yeah, screw the US, I don't care when they get it.... Never for all I care!!!!!!! 
It's now 1pm and it doesn't seem to be live yet?
Damnit
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On March 31 2015 20:47 Teoita wrote:
The thing with the cyclone is i really just dont get what it's supposed to do. At blizzcon it looked like it just killed everything, and now it still seems like it's something that basically always works and has no weakness...or it ends up being mediocre against everything, and then it's useless.
Well it's supposed to be good vs Ultralisks and replace bio in that regard, but it will likely be weak vs Speedlings. But it just looks so boring. I can't see myself playing terran in LOTV tbh.
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I dont like the tank into medivac and warpprism load in with range upgrades. These things are the one that let the defender just look stupid and you cannot do that much against it. And the role of the medivac and warpprism is already huge enough.
Some upgrade for tanks that allows them to either siege up while driving (and unsiege like before) or vise versa would be much better.
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On March 31 2015 20:52 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2015 20:50 Everlong wrote:On March 31 2015 20:47 Teoita wrote:
The thing with the cyclone is i really just dont get what it's supposed to do. At blizzcon it looked like it just killed everything, and now it still seems like it's something that basically always works and has no weakness...or it ends up being mediocre against everything, and then it's useless. I believe it's the basic mech anti-air unit we've all been missing, I view it as the missing piece of puzzle that could potentialy make mech viable and hopefully you'll be able to move around map and you won't have to just turtle into 20 Ravens to get a shot at winning the game. Eh except it really isn't, it does the same thing vs both ground and air, meaning it really it's more of a catch-all unit than a specialized aa unit. It's pretty clear they have no problem with copying bw design for lots of stuff (vipers vs defilers, disruptors vs reavers just to name a few), but in this case the cyclone is nothing like a goliath.
I think a catch-all unit is exactly what mech needs, because mech has otherwise very specialized units that only work well together and it's very easy to exploit lack of "something" within the mech army. Obviously, I don't want an overpowered shit that you'd be ably to just amass and be done. They should tweak it a bit, for sure.
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Hellions are map control units against P?!? Not in the games I've seen. They get bullied by a few stalkers, and the msc because they don't have any anti-air.
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Something to consider when you're talking about making units more and more mobile:
Roach vs Roach.
Mobile units that die relatively slowly make for boring engagements whose outcome depends on weight of numbers. That's why Blizzard reverted internal test changes they made halving the damage everything did: it made the game LESS micro-intensive, not more. Although intuitively you would think "Less damage = longer engagements = more opportunity to micro", what actually happened was "Less damage = kiting less effective at chipping down large armies" and "Less damage = sides get to engage more fully before units start to die = less impact of positional play".
All the best interactions in BW and SC2 rely on dying-rate >> natural mobility to offer opportunities for micro to shine. Siege tanks, Lurkers and Reavers. Indeed, all units in BW were naturally poor at getting into the action and had to be helped with micro. In SC2, Muta-ling-bling vs MMM (even though marine, ling and muta mobility is sky high, the DPS of marines and banelings is even higher, making micro crucial to the engagement). Stalkers are dangerously close to being roaches (low damage, high health, high mobility), but the ultra high mobility provided by blink micro (in conjunction with shield recharge) manages to rescue them.
Now look at the least interesting interactions: roach vs roach. Colossus wars. Muta vs Muta. In every case natural mobility is high and dying-rate is relatively low, giving players very little room to improve upon a-move.
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On March 31 2015 20:54 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2015 20:52 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
In how many hours will the beta be released? We dont know
i somehow feel like beta is just a 1 day earlier aprils fool...
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Italy12248 Posts
Against P if terran wants early game map control he can still go mine/medivac drops, and even open with a hellion build and go into that, so i really don't see how that argument makes sense.
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On March 31 2015 20:57 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2015 20:54 Phaenoman wrote:On March 31 2015 20:50 Everlong wrote:On March 31 2015 20:47 Teoita wrote:
The thing with the cyclone is i really just dont get what it's supposed to do. At blizzcon it looked like it just killed everything, and now it still seems like it's something that basically always works and has no weakness...or it ends up being mediocre against everything, and then it's useless. I believe it's the basic mech anti-air unit we've all been missing. I view it as the missing piece of puzzle that could potentialy make mech viable and hopefully you'll be able to move around map and you won't have to just turtle into 20 Ravens to get a shot at winning the game. Its not just a missing anti air. It feels like anti-anything to be honest. Is this gonna end up like the infamous Warhound? Mapctrl and anti-air seems a little too much? Warhound didn't have anti air iirc.
Yep, no anti air, but u could use warhounds vs alomst everything. So that means the Cyclone is "better" Warhound.
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On March 31 2015 20:59 Mallidon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2015 20:00 JacobShock wrote:On March 31 2015 19:56 Elentos wrote:On March 31 2015 19:53 m4cho wrote:
Where is all the beta streams? It's not even really day yet in all the US <.< Its noon in EU and I feel like its christmas.. and that I am 7 years old. Yeah, screw the US, I don't care when they get it.... Never for all I care!!!!!!! It's now 1pm and it doesn't seem to be live yet? Damnit
the tweet said daytime PDT,
as of this post its 5am PDT, so in 8-12 hours I guess?
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On March 31 2015 20:55 Hider wrote:When it's not rewarded to move the unit around during an engagement (besides a-moving) and/or the only abilities you can use on it are very simple + the unit doesn't have a specific synergy with a dropship. So for instance if all you did with bio units were to press "T" and then a-move, they would be an a-move unit. However, because stim opens up for so many micro opportunities in terms of moving them around during an engagement, it's not an amove unit. Immortals on the other hand will continue to be amovish as you a-move and then press the simple ability to boost their shield while standing still w/ them.
That's why I had the list.
-Being able to give the attack command once and be done?
-Being able to give periodic commands without actually watching the unit? (selecting army and pressing stim, etc)
-Units that benefit slightly/significantly from simple move commands/repositioning? (Fanning out to concave, pulling back from the front line, moving past/into the army/surrounding, etc)
-Units that benefit slightly/significantly from complex movement commands? (Splitting, magic-box, stutter-stepping , etc)
-Units that benefit slightly/significantly from an additional ability? (Blink, burrow, detonate, land, boosters, etc)
-What if the unit is otherwise "an a-move unit" but gets a significant boost from drop micro?
IMO the big question mark is #3:
Units that benefit slightly/significantly from simple move commands/repositioning? (Fanning out to concave, pulling back from the front line, moving past/into the army/surrounding, etc)
This is where units like colossus, roaches (without burrow), and hydralisks fall.
EDIT: this is also where damage point changes could really change that benefit from slight to significant!
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On March 31 2015 21:03 Teoita wrote:
Against P if terran wants early game map control he can still go mine/medivac drops, and even open with a hellion build and go into that, so i really don't see how that argument makes sense.
In the sense that those clearly aren't map control units, you don't get map control. You can force the P to defend in his base for a while, but that doesn't mean you get map control as those units can't actually face off against what P has on the map.
The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate a game where a P is forced to relinquish map control against a meching terran after the 8-9 minute mark.
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That's why I had the list.
I am not really sure what you imply by number 3. If it's possible to pull the unit back from the engagement temporarily and then into it again, i wouldn't classify it as an move unit (if that's what your referring to).
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Italy12248 Posts
On March 31 2015 21:08 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2015 21:03 Teoita wrote:
Against P if terran wants early game map control he can still go mine/medivac drops, and even open with a hellion build and go into that, so i really don't see how that argument makes sense. In the sense that those clearly aren't map control units, you don't get map control. You can force the P to defend in his base for a while, but that doesn't mean you get map control as those units can't actually face off against what P has on the map. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate a game where a P is forced to relinquish map control against a meching terran after the 8-9 minute mark.
Ah if you mean after that timing, yeah there's no such thing and i'm ok with it, just like protoss loses map control when he turtles to storm/colossus vs bio. If we had both a crazy powerful turtle tech army and map control it really, really wouldn't be ok.
Also that's nothing like vultures vs goons in bw, where sure the terran sends out hit squads of units, but he certainly doesn't get full map control from it.
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On March 31 2015 21:11 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2015 21:08 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 31 2015 21:03 Teoita wrote:
Against P if terran wants early game map control he can still go mine/medivac drops, and even open with a hellion build and go into that, so i really don't see how that argument makes sense. In the sense that those clearly aren't map control units, you don't get map control. You can force the P to defend in his base for a while, but that doesn't mean you get map control as those units can't actually face off against what P has on the map. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate a game where a P is forced to relinquish map control against a meching terran after the 8-9 minute mark. Ah if you mean after that timing, yeah there's no such thing and i'm ok with it, just like protoss loses map control when he turtles to storm/colossus vs bio. If we had both a crazy powerful turtle tech army and map control it really, really wouldn't be ok. Also that's nothing like vultures vs goons in bw, where sure the terran sends out hit squads of units, but he certainly doesn't get full map control from it.
In my mind (not having the units to play around with, and seeing the new viable builds), I see the cyclone providing the opportunity to take map control if microed correctly, but losing it easily if mistakes are made or the opponent traps the unit, or uses map features against it (it's map control should require ample space to move around). So it comes down to tweaking the numbers until you get a good balance (something akin to hellions vs. lings when Inno and Life had epic micro battles for map control).
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EPT
