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Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread.
Non-League of Legends discussion should go in the LiquidLegends Lounge.
Certain topics are blacklisted from LoL General Discussion and they include:- "Elo hell"
- The Tribunal
- Bans, either from TL.net or LoL
Additionally, the TL LoL Ten Commandments are available for you to reference if you have any questions about this subforum.
Use the LoL Strategy subforum if you have game or champion specific questions. Lastly, confine QQing and bragging to their respective threads.
Patch 10.3: Live on Feb. 5, 2020
Team Fight Tactics Patch 10.3 Live on Feb. 5, 2020
+ Show Spoiler [Previous GD Threads & Patch Notes] +
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Our complaining has saved jungle everyone. Good Job!
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im probably not mathing this right because it looks to me first buff gives a total 10 XP less now so you wont get lvl2 after blue or red.
again prob just missed something in there, but after all the complaining, it would be peak 200 years experience if the attempted fix just fucked over junglers more so i choose to believe my own truth.
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They added an extra 10 XP per camp bonus on the monster hunter passive.
As an aside, I wouldn't mind if they hard buffed the XP rate of camps and removed the bonus on the first camp. Idk, I'd prefer to be able to have solo lane power than to be able to hit level 2 instantly. I also think that it's wacky and disengenious how junglers highest XP/min portion of the game is 1:30 thru 2:00. It's pretty telling how much they've needed the jungle when you realize that the monster hunter first camp bonus is literally the same XP as 2 camps.
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Goodbye Akali Welcome Back Victor Top Lane
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Best toplane is Jax vs. Olaf. All other toplanes are for clowns
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Akali and Yuumi are getting hotfix buffs .
can't leave akali in the gutter for even one patch it seems.
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This is the stuff that drives me wild about the riot balance team. Akali is OP for 12 months is bad for 24 hours and gets buffs meanwhile Soraka is OP for 2 weeks and we’re on the fucking case guys don’t worry.
That and they’re stated goal of balancing anything based on iron-silver win rates
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The jungle buffs feel so much better than I thought they would.
I won two games last night where multiple lanes died before I finished my second buff. Would have been sure losses before. The slightly earlier level power spike can't be overstated. It's huge.
On February 08 2020 06:58 Slusher wrote:
This is the stuff that drives me wild about the riot balance team. Akali is OP for 12 months is bad for 24 hours and gets buffs meanwhile Soraka is OP for 2 weeks and we’re on the fucking case guys don’t worry.
That and they’re stated goal of balancing anything based on iron-silver win rates
I don't understand the philosophy. I thought they decided that they wanted to balance Champions around being viable in one of the awful elo / normal elo / high elo / pro play segments while not being overbearing in any of them.
But like... Then you have the stuff with Akali. And the one that weirds me out is the buffing of Amumu they keep doing. Idk, he's awful at last plus, but he had an iron winrate of 55%. Then they buffed him this patch, and they have more Amumu buffs coming. He's going to be winning 60% of iron games at this rate. Lol.
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On February 08 2020 07:23 iCanada wrote:The jungle buffs feel so much better than I thought they would. I won two games last night where multiple lanes died before I finished my second buff. Would have been sure losses before. The slightly earlier level power spike can't be overstated. It's huge. Show nested quote +On February 08 2020 06:58 Slusher wrote:
This is the stuff that drives me wild about the riot balance team. Akali is OP for 12 months is bad for 24 hours and gets buffs meanwhile Soraka is OP for 2 weeks and we’re on the fucking case guys don’t worry.
That and they’re stated goal of balancing anything based on iron-silver win rates I don't understand the philosophy. I thought they decided that they wanted to balance Champions around being viable in one of the awful elo / normal elo / high elo / pro play segments while not being overbearing in any of them. But like... Then you have the stuff with Akali. And the one that weirds me out is the buffing of Amumu they keep doing. Idk, he's awful at last plus, but he had an iron winrate of 55%. Then they buffed him this patch, and they have more Amumu buffs coming. He's going to be winning 60% of iron games at this rate. Lol.
What philosophy? Lol Dont pay any attention to what they are saying balance wise, their primary goals are to make people play as many games as possible without overdoing it and make'em quit and focus on the stuff that sells. The former includes the bullshit ranked matchmaking that makes people grind as much as possible, combining good and bad players based on whatever data, to slow down some of them while allowing others to feel good being carried and it also includes getting rid of shit that make people quit such as soraka top and letting shit that make people play such as akali. People hate akali but they dont quit because of her, however, plenty of people stay for akali and buy her skins, not the same case with soraka where people will make a fucking strike if she stays on a carry role xD. And then the sells are sells, not much I can add here, some champions sell, why do you think riven never felt out of meta ever, but I doubt that I need to explain about skins to this forum:-)
In league real balace and competitive integrity are secondary objectives, I cant say that Riot doesnt work over these, but they are lower in the priority list and are mostly touched when they threaten the primary objectives-> big and active player base and revenue
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I... Ugh.
I had a game today where I took an Inhib at 16 minutes and my mid laner flamed the shit out of me, said to watch LS' cast of LCK yesterday, because I took the inhib too early and lost us the game. What a load of shit. Spoiler alert, we instantly pushed up bottom and took a second inhib, then got a 20 minute baron into insta win off of the other team trying to keep the 3 super minions in their base off their nexu towers, still got a nexus tower for free, then instantly won the game.
Giving up a lane of farm to have a perma 5v4 on the rest of the map is basically a free win. Its also 5 minutes or ten waves of creeps, even if you get none of those creeps and the other team gets all of those creeps, you're theoretically paying 1500 gold to have a 5v4 for 5 minutes, which is huge. And worth it, considering it gives you complete map control the entire time unless you're fucking awful, seeing how you were ahead enough to get an inhibitor by ~15 minutes. The things literally can solo towers and underfed champions before 20 minutes. You're now guaranteed to get the entire enemy jungle, and Drake / Rift, and get mad pushing pressure on other towers. You get one inner towers thats 550, one full jungle clear gets you an extra ~600 gold, but you should have two spawns of Raptros / Golems / Krugs Wolves, meaning you are getting 1000 gold from the jungle and 1550 gold total, which is the same as what you gave up to get the 5v4, and realistically you should be able to get more than that in 5 minutes with a big gold lead unless your team can't siege and the other team has really good wave-clear.
Plus, you have full vision and map control at 20 minutes for baron, or an early drake soul.
Saying that leaving the inhib up is the right play seems like such a snooty psuedo-intellectual missing the forest for the trees mentality. Not to mention, SKT is clearly defending their own inhib tower. Idk,every pro game I can currently recall where one team took an inhib sub-20 minutes they won.
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I think it depends on what waveclear and champs there are on enemy team. If you play vs lux and cait and got a 2 items spike mid/toplaner coming up by him farming the super waves, you might get a spicy game still..
But like you said, 99% of the time taking inhib is probably the right call.
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As always, I think LS is only half right. The gold (and exp) you get from minions pushing safely into your base (as opposed to creep denial and walking to the unsafe lane with little vision) is very real, the losing team loses control of the map but gets to still kill creeps and might even catch up in gold.
But everything LS says only half applies in soloQ, since he effectively ignores the human aspect of the game. Most people play at a level where win lane = win game. I bet half the reason you got the inhib was because the rest of the enemy team left top lane on an island, and tilted when they saw him getting dumpstered. And you pushed bot because people on the enemy team didn't react correctly either, or they had a comp with terrible wave clear, i.e. your team pushed its draft advantages. Because 90% of people play soloQ thinking only about themselves (big brain statement right there), and the other 10% are idiots who tilt when they see their team making poor macro decisions (like your team mate). Outside of Challenger/GM KR which is full of pros, macro is so poor that taking that inhib is probably a good decision, or neutral at best. If you lose after taking that inhib, you probably lost because of some other reason.
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I actually have lost a game for taking bot inhib at 20 min (years ago) and my adc stalled out on one item and became useless. I always looked back on that game as a mistake on how I played it in the following 10 minutes (not forcing mid) but in the most literal sense it is possible to lose that way.
If you listen to LS talk about freezing, he seems to want people to play the old CJ Blaze “One trick warhorse” style. Which when I think about it is really weird that it’s never ever been a thing since the Ozone series, but it does obviously have counterplay if you have the right champions.
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On February 09 2020 01:20 Slusher wrote:
I actually have lost a game for taking bot inhib at 20 min (years ago) and my adc stalled out on one item and became useless. I always looked back on that game as a mistake on how I played it in the following 10 minutes (not forcing mid) but in the most literal sense it is possible to lose that way.
If you listen to LS talk about freezing, he seems to want people to play the old CJ Blaze “One trick warhorse” style. Which when I think about it is really weird that it’s never ever been a thing since the Ozone series, but it does obviously have counterplay if you have the right champions.
you didnt lose that because you took bot inhib. you lost that because all your teammates are greedy and no one prioritised farm on the adc.
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Does the wit's end work with Garen's E, I mean does it apply the effect?
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On February 09 2020 20:10 M2 wrote:
Does the wit's end work with Garen's E, I mean does it apply the effect?
No. They (luckily) dropped letting Garen's spin apply on-hit effects.
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I find it hilarious that Riots response to no one wanting to play jungle was to just take like ten random but popular Champions and buff their jungle clear. Lol.
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On February 12 2020 07:07 iCanada wrote:
I find it hilarious that Riots response to no one wanting to play jungle was to just take like ten random but popular Champions and buff their jungle clear. Lol.
Time for some spicy Zed jungle. This has to be an early April Fools'...
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On February 12 2020 07:07 iCanada wrote:
I find it hilarious that Riots response to no one wanting to play jungle was to just take like ten random but popular Champions and buff their jungle clear. Lol.
TBH, I think they should do this more. Every champion should be able to jungle effectively, if not competitively.
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On February 12 2020 11:43 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 07:07 iCanada wrote:
I find it hilarious that Riots response to no one wanting to play jungle was to just take like ten random but popular Champions and buff their jungle clear. Lol. TBH, I think they should do this more. Every champion should be able to jungle effectively, if not competitively.
Thats like S2 jungle then. And no, while I have done it, some champs like Anivia are not meant to jungle.
You'd basically either have to put a ton of damage onto the jungle item, or else weaken the camps to the point where past 5 minutes the S tier junglers kill camps in a couple seconds.
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On February 12 2020 12:37 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2020 11:43 cLutZ wrote:On February 12 2020 07:07 iCanada wrote:
I find it hilarious that Riots response to no one wanting to play jungle was to just take like ten random but popular Champions and buff their jungle clear. Lol. TBH, I think they should do this more. Every champion should be able to jungle effectively, if not competitively. Thats like S2 jungle then. And no, while I have done it, some champs like Anivia are not meant to jungle. You'd basically either have to put a ton of damage onto the jungle item, or else weaken the camps to the point where past 5 minutes the S tier junglers kill camps in a couple seconds.
S2 was, IMO the healthiest jungle meta I ever played in. I don't think clearing camps should be a significant achievement (and it really isn't) in LOL given how they balance the game. I'd rather they just be capture the flag that is a question between lane presence and gold. Wraiths are obviously a problem in this vision (move them much closer to the spawning point, problem solved), but travel time is still the only real limiting factor for junglers, its just in the current meta there are very few that can do a good first clear.
Riot's jungle vision is very confused because they have not chosen a route. They kinda committed to dedicated jungler in S3 by introducing jungle items (a mistake IMO), but then they have never really allowed for the jungler to be a dedicated position. They have always failed to balance the farm/gank dichotomy, and because of continued vision nerfs its gotten much more RNG oriented.
It you want to go the supportive route, that they sort of have committed to, just have capture the flag. Otherwise, push all the camps to parts that are kinda inconvenient for laners and allow powerfarming, but because vision sucks now that is easily balanced by the power of ganks.
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S2 we had Wriggle's Lantern dominate, and saw the oppressive counter junglers, aka Shyv, Udyr and Lee. It was not a fun time when Amumu was level 3 while Lee was 6 because he denied the first two camps and there nothing you could do to get back in the game. M5 was the first hyped up EU team though, along with CLG.EU. Good Times.
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are we sure that riot is not test putting these champions in the jungle and if it works, next step - removing them from mid and top so they dont have to balance their feast or famine match ups anymore )
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Shouldn't jungle Zed be even more feast or famine than lane Zed?
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On February 13 2020 00:24 M2 wrote:are we sure that riot is not test putting these champions in the jungle and if it works, next step - removing them from mid and top so they dont have to balance their feast or famine match ups anymore )
If it means Darius is going to become a jungler and kicked out of top I think 94% of all toplaners will clap their hands and praise the sun. 
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I tried Darius in the jungle on the PBE, tbh his clear is actually kind of ridiculous with the attack speed slow on W, the increased bleed damage, his Q heal / W reset working on monsters, and the way his bleed interacts with talisman burn. He can full clear pretty quickly and safely if you kite well, are good at hitting Q on camps, and manage bleeds / burns well. I did a no leash full clear in about 3:15, and I think it was far from optimal. Think there would be a ton of time you could shave managing passive well kiting camps, particularly at raptors / wolves. His clear is so safe that honestly I think you could take rejuv bead or buy a pink level 1, although with the trinket trick not sure a level 1 pink really gets you much really game; pots ticking in a fight likely more valuable. Easily the clear speed likely gets to the Nocturne / Graves level, maybe even is able to compete with the Karthus / Olaf / Nidalees.
I think him full clearing into contesting the first crab would be scary as hell, as you'd for sure be level 4 as crab spawns. Also not sure how any low elo jungler with a poorly optimized clear would possibly deal with a Darius Blue>Gromp>Red invade. I think you'd get a multiple camp lead reliably almost every game. Low elo Olaf, if you will.
In decent level play he needs Ghost + Flash to be useful at all, but I think if you went Predator + Sorcery for nimbus cloak and water walking while taking blue smite I think you're gaining a larger movement speed differential between you and your opponent than you are with ghost.
He's good at taking crab, and I think he can win nearly every 1v1 against real meta junglers. Even stuff like Olaf, Udyr, and Trundle can't win that 1v1 I don't think. Tbh I think he'll be broken as hell until you get to matchmaking ranges where Champions like Nidalee and Graves are played consistently and players have mechanics to outplay the 1v1, or laners are good enough to win the 2v2 with say Leesin / Elise. I don't think his ganks are anything special, but with predator, Darius burst damage, blue smite, and pull I could see him being a monster in lower level games same as say a Volibear, just a touch more farm focused.
On February 13 2020 00:24 M2 wrote:are we sure that riot is not test putting these champions in the jungle and if it works, next step - removing them from mid and top so they dont have to balance their feast or famine match ups anymore )
Imo all of these Champions will be much more feast / famine in the jungle. I feel like the jungle in general is hard feast / famine as it is. I'm either 5/1/X and winning in 25 minutes, or I'm 0/3/X and losing in 25 minutes
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On February 12 2020 21:37 DarkCore wrote:
S2 we had Wriggle's Lantern dominate, and saw the oppressive counter junglers, aka Shyv, Udyr and Lee. It was not a fun time when Amumu was level 3 while Lee was 6 because he denied the first two camps and there nothing you could do to get back in the game. M5 was the first hyped up EU team though, along with CLG.EU. Good Times.
You can still do that to an Amumu, pretty much. The difference is mostly that laners react to invades more, Lee Sin has just been straight nerfed compared to his S2 power level, and also people don't really pick Amumu anymore because mobility creep has hit him harder than just about anybody.
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Do we have a general discord or matchmaking thread to find duo partners?
Havent played in years and got placed in Iron 5, climbed up to silver 4 in the last 2 weeks, but it'd be nice to have some people to play / climb with. Plat 1 was my highest.
My IGN is Luck. I play on NA.
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On February 12 2020 07:07 iCanada wrote:
I find it hilarious that Riots response to no one wanting to play jungle was to just take like ten random but popular Champions and buff their jungle clear. Lol.
Mark my words, if they push these changes through, the jungle is going to be busted broken. Non CC junglers are a touchy point of balance, because technically the main conditions for a jungler are solid ganks and good wave clear, and junglers which try to bypass the former (like Karthus) only become pickable when they completely mess with the meta. I don't want to suddenly see mid Lulu with jungle Zed camping lanes.
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On February 12 2020 21:37 DarkCore wrote:
S2 we had Wriggle's Lantern dominate, and saw the oppressive counter junglers, aka Shyv, Udyr and Lee. It was not a fun time when Amumu was level 3 while Lee was 6 because he denied the first two camps and there nothing you could do to get back in the game. M5 was the first hyped up EU team though, along with CLG.EU. Good Times.
I mean there was also the period where you could pick nunu, and if your team had strong level 1 champs you could walk straight into enemy jungle and take every big monster with no contest possible because consume did like 100 more damage than smite, and set the enemy jungler back into the stone age because the little creeps gave jack shit for XP.
That was a whole lot of fun to deal with.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
History quiz: what are some examples of the weirdest "fad" champions or metas that were popular for a patch or two, and then immediately nerfed and then never seen again?
Off the top of my head:
* Soraka top (most recently)
* Klepto Viktor top
* Runeglaive Ezreal mid
* Ezreal jungle
* Taric double relic shield top
Also tempted to give honorable mention to Ardent Censer, which somehow in one patch, without even being buffed in that patch, went from "no one built it" to "you're trolling if you don't start Relic Shield on the ADC to help your support rush it even faster".
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The initial Soraka top was probably worse because she was quite the lane bully on top of that.
I guess various iterations of assassins built as bruisers don't count because these laster longer than a patch or two?
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* When League of Black Cleavers happened, we actually saw old Talon played, once it was over he fell into obscurity again. Old Panth also saw play.
* Mid lane old Soraka super pushing the lane without any sort of counter play.
* AP Tryndamere (on Twisted Treeline) this persisted for quite some time but only because Riot didn't care.
* Alistar top lane (also jungle) with the dumb W-AA mechanic
* Vision changes (trinket introduction, removal of green wards) resulting in obnoxious Teemo games (think TSM played it at Worlds?).
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* Lulu jungle was popular at some point.
* If Viktor top counts then maybe Shyvana top with smite too?
* Warwick 4.20.
* Spellthief Zilean top
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noooo why are the quote and edit buttons so similar
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On February 14 2020 04:00 Sent. wrote:
noooo why are the quote and edit buttons so similar
Learnt this the hard way two weeks into admin powers when i meant to quote and just edited someone's entire message as my own...
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What was obnoxious about klepto Viktor that wasn't about other ranged top-viable champions? He's only got 525 aa range although his Q kinda alleviates that.
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Viktor pushes quite well, Q is on a low CD (maxing it first) so shield and MS made him untradeable. So you pushed melee champs into their turret and harassed them for free gold. Also E used to have better early damage, and all that gold snowballed you so insanely hard. And the IBG first build was retarded...
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Support Nasus. I think that was a liquid legends special, I want to say Monte said it was lulzy and then Loci chatted it up. Was even picked in pro games. Then gone after a patch.
And then there is the old SmashGizmo special sauce nunu top.
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I played Nasus support when Kalista was big. She does not have fun when withered, and she was so busted back then.
I don't know how long Eve mid with DFG was played, but that's what I was doing when I first started out S3 lol.
Nunu top was quite fun lol
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Nunu top was the dirtiest thing I can recall ever doing in LoL. Even dirtier than playing AP sion mid with my duo playing Shaco in the era where he could get level 3 at 1:50 with boxes doing one buff and Shaco soloing the other. I'd ignite for first blood, hard shove and reset, do it again when me and soon got back to lane with Shaco's ignite, into an instant Mejais+Leviathan.
The 15 minute solo Barons with Revolver+Glacial+Mercs. Lol. The hard int style early dives and instantly healing full with Q at like level 4. The empires from lane brush. So dirty.
Both of those were probably by far the highest elo / rank I ever achieved, and both were quite abusive, lol.
I miss AP Sion. That was my shit.
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Eve mid was fun but it was legit 80%+ ban rate after week one. I played it as much as I could though.
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I miss AP Sion. That was my shit.
Fairly sure that was one of the first champs I actually learnt, from watching Reginald stream. The all in timings were fascinating, also the most broken and incoherent kit to ever grace this game (broken as in it didn't work).
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On February 14 2020 07:22 DarkCore wrote:Fairly sure that was one of the first champs I actually learnt, from watching Reginald stream. The all in timings were fascinating, also the most broken and incoherent kit to ever grace this game (broken as in it didn't work).
Old Poppy was so fucked as well. Had played for maybe 100+ hours and had never seen her once. Then played against her as Ashe with a Janna support. Let's just say I learnt what Poppy did really quickly...and it was not fun.
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On February 14 2020 03:58 DarkCore wrote:
* When League of Black Cleavers happened, we actually saw old Talon played, once it was over he fell into obscurity again. Old Panth also saw play.
* Mid lane old Soraka super pushing the lane without any sort of counter play.
* AP Tryndamere (on Twisted Treeline) this persisted for quite some time but only because Riot didn't care.
* Alistar top lane (also jungle) with the dumb W-AA mechanic
* Vision changes (trinket introduction, removal of green wards) resulting in obnoxious Teemo games (think TSM played it at Worlds?).
Only TSM game with Teemo at worlds I remembered was them trolling around in S3 because they were guaranteed to not make it out of groups.
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Viktor's mana pool wasn't great if you were using E too much even without maxing it though, sounds a bit weird unless you use the timing windows like hitting 3 first, putting a second point in Q and immediately aggro-ing (which works better on squishies than bruisers, though it worked very well mid with pre-rework Viktor who had better early Q damage 'cause there wasn't the laser auto scaling off levels).
SmashGizmo + Neo theorised Nunu top and it was actually ridiculously strong with good-ish kill pressure early on and it could solo baron at spawn if you got enough of a lead (something like 3 kills or stealing enemy jungle) and most importantly enough time.
Which you'd usually get because you'd make the enemy top laner cower at tower after freezing six consecutive waves on them.
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Nunu top was great for sure.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On February 14 2020 09:06 Alaric wrote:
Viktor's mana pool wasn't great if you were using E too much even without maxing it though, sounds a bit weird unless you use the timing windows like hitting 3 first, putting a second point in Q and immediately aggro-ing (which works better on squishies than bruisers, though it worked very well mid with pre-rework Viktor who had better early Q damage 'cause there wasn't the laser auto scaling off levels).
Klepto Viktor top was broken AF for a few reasons:
* Viktor Q with low mana cost / cooldown means constant Klepto procs;
* Klepto solved the "first buy" problem of Viktor by letting you stay in lane forever;
* Klepto solved Viktor's mana problems by fueling you with endless potions/elixirs;
* Time Warp Tonic made your potions/elixirs busted AF by making them 20% more effective;
* Time Warp Tonic meant permanent +5% MS because you were always under the effect of something;
* Celerity converted that extra MS to AP;
* IBG is a disgustingly good item on tank Viktor because it gives him five stats he wants: Mana (useful for both spamming Q and for Q shield strength), armor, Sheen procs, CDR, and the slow field
In practice the best part was the MS. His Q speed boost + TWT 5% speed boost + Celerity + IBG slow meant he was impossible to catch but also impossible to run away from. It was kind of like the OG Blue Ezreal build, except imagine if Q was targeted and also gave you MS.
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Where does this idea that Junglers need to be tanky come from? Is it just old school thinking from laners that dont really understand the meta?
Idk, on my main ranked account I'm back in plat (400 games later zzz) maining Nidalee / Graves exclusively, and probably every three games at least one of my teammates hard flames me for not being tanky. I just don't understand though, almost no jungler is tanky. Like... The top tier at a high level is Lee, Reksai, Olaf, Elise, and AP Gragas. Lol.
Do people just think that Junglers are initiating early game teamfights or something? Like, prior to third Drake spawn there is zero reason to start a straight up 50/50 fight, you're always ganking or getting picks in which you don't need to be tanky because the other team is running, dueling in which case damage is way better, being counterganked in which case they're going to focus the champion that has the most kill threat meaning being tanky is kind of useless, or counterganking in which case you don't need to be tanky because why the hell would they 100 to 0 the jungler when they could 50 to 0 the laner they already chunked that also likely does more damage?
The thinking makes zero sense to me, but it's so prevalent. Am I out to lunch? Or do I just need to stop thinking about it and exercise my mute button more?
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On February 15 2020 07:33 iCanada wrote:
Where does this idea that Junglers need to be tanky come from? Is it just old school thinking from laners that dont really understand the meta?
Idk, on my main ranked account I'm back in plat (400 games later zzz) maining Nidalee / Graves exclusively, and probably every three games at least one of my teammates hard flames me for not being tanky. I just don't understand though, almost no jungler is tanky. Like... The top tier at a high level is Lee, Reksai, Olaf, Elise, and AP Gragas. Lol.
Do people just think that Junglers are initiating early game teamfights or something? Like, prior to third Drake spawn there is zero reason to start a straight up 50/50 fight, you're always ganking or getting picks in which you don't need to be tanky because the other team is running, dueling in which case damage is way better, being counterganked in which case they're going to focus the champion that has the most kill threat meaning being tanky is kind of useless, or counterganking in which case you don't need to be tanky because why the hell would they 100 to 0 the jungler when they could 50 to 0 the laner they already chunked that also likely does more damage?
The thinking makes zero sense to me, but it's so prevalent. Am I out to lunch? Or do I just need to stop thinking about it and exercise my mute button more?
In Plat? I'd be less surprised if it was like that in silver/bronze but wouldn't expect that to be the case in plat. The only relevant tanky jungler in recent history has been Sej and maybe Zac and Nunu. Even then, I never blind them in solo queue because they are legit dog champs in certain matchups (and also means you are putting it all on your team to carry you).
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Yeah, exactly. I find ADCs and top laners generally are the ones that get the most ansty about it.
Idk, tanky junglers havn't been good in a long time, and like I said you just never really need to be tanky prior to your first real 50/50 contest, which would be third Drake if you lost the first two, otherwise it's likely an overzealous coin-flippy Baron call... And by this time you've had more than enough time to buy a second item if you actually need to be tanky. But even then, I don't even think teams really need a "front line" in the traditional sense now a days.
I feel like a lot of players have this emotional late game fantasy of winning a hotly contested 5v5 and assume that's how league should be played, but like... I can't even really recall my last game that ended in an even teamfight. It's all creating a gold lead, flexing that to win vision, then using your vision advantage to create picks, then using your picks to force an objective with an uncontestable numbers advantage.
But again, maybe I'm out to lunch. Or maybe it's because I main Nidalee and Graves, and those Champions suck at teamfighting. Lol. But like... Unless you're stupidly ahead, or have Elder buff, why risk a 5v5 fight when using map pressure and vision to get power plays is so much safer?
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On February 15 2020 07:33 iCanada wrote:
Where does this idea that Junglers need to be tanky come from? Is it just old school thinking from laners that dont really understand the meta?
Idk, on my main ranked account I'm back in plat (400 games later zzz) maining Nidalee / Graves exclusively, and probably every three games at least one of my teammates hard flames me for not being tanky. I just don't understand though, almost no jungler is tanky. Like... The top tier at a high level is Lee, Reksai, Olaf, Elise, and AP Gragas. Lol.
Do people just think that Junglers are initiating early game teamfights or something? Like, prior to third Drake spawn there is zero reason to start a straight up 50/50 fight, you're always ganking or getting picks in which you don't need to be tanky because the other team is running, dueling in which case damage is way better, being counterganked in which case they're going to focus the champion that has the most kill threat meaning being tanky is kind of useless, or counterganking in which case you don't need to be tanky because why the hell would they 100 to 0 the jungler when they could 50 to 0 the laner they already chunked that also likely does more damage?
The thinking makes zero sense to me, but it's so prevalent. Am I out to lunch? Or do I just need to stop thinking about it and exercise my mute button more?
Probably from the idea that if you don't pop off you're probably too poor to keep being a threat damagewise.
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Yeah, but like if you don't pop off then you're too poor to be sufficiently tanky and you do less damage now, too.
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I would assume that what they were actually trying to say is to bring something useful for the team, since, graves and nidalee are like I need to either solo carry or you gotta do something for me to help me carry because I am only useful with damage however their undeveloped still not fully healed from silver games plat brains managed to express that desire in tanks If you were playing lee or elise I doubt you would have gotten this remarks
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Ah, that makes sense I suppose.
I do think Nidalee is useful if she doesn't 1v9, she utilizes Ardent + Athenes probably the best out of any champions in the game not named Soraka and maybe Sona (although Athenes seems troll if you aren't controlling where the burst heal goes). Outside of snowball-y items (Sorc Shoes, Oblivion Orb, Mejais, Void Staff, Deathcap, Lichbane, stopwatch... if you behind you build like Athenes + IBG), and Morello which you only build to hard counter healing, Ardent Censor is Nidalee's highest winrate item in Korean Soloqueue per op.gg, and you really are only building it if you're not coming close to popping off. With Runic Echoes + Athenes + Ardent, you can burst heal for 1.1 * [230 + (0.65/AP * 240 AP) + 200] = 645 HP while giving 60 AS and ardent buff, which is beast. Thats nearly 2x that of Summoner Heal.
https://na.op.gg/champion/nidalee/statistics/jungle
I win a lot of games being poor mans Soraka w/ an execute. Even Redemption has a ridiculous winrate, like 53% and again thats one of those items you would only consider building if you're getting dummied and trying to get carried.
Graves is fair though, I suppose, only real utility is smokescreen.
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Nidalee will forever be disgusting in Korean soloq. So many players who rose to prominence in s6 main her. She's like the "new" Lee Sin for junglers. Although, Lee Sin is obviously the most popular with older jungle players and even some new ones.
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On February 14 2020 03:40 GrandInquisitor wrote:
History quiz: what are some examples of the weirdest "fad" champions or metas that were popular for a patch or two, and then immediately nerfed and then never seen again?
Off the top of my head:
* Soraka top (most recently)
* Klepto Viktor top
* Runeglaive Ezreal mid
* Ezreal jungle
* Taric double relic shield top
Also tempted to give honorable mention to Ardent Censer, which somehow in one patch, without even being buffed in that patch, went from "no one built it" to "you're trolling if you don't start Relic Shield on the ADC to help your support rush it even faster".
Fucking ZZrot
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On February 14 2020 03:40 GrandInquisitor wrote:
History quiz: what are some examples of the weirdest "fad" champions or metas that were popular for a patch or two, and then immediately nerfed and then never seen again?
Off the top of my head:
* Soraka top (most recently)
* Klepto Viktor top
* Runeglaive Ezreal mid
* Ezreal jungle
* Taric double relic shield top
Also tempted to give honorable mention to Ardent Censer, which somehow in one patch, without even being buffed in that patch, went from "no one built it" to "you're trolling if you don't start Relic Shield on the ADC to help your support rush it even faster".
Off-tank Ahri and Katarina with their hilariously high base numbers.
4 Relic Shield start.
Dont know if Juggernaut Patch Skarner counts?
Yuumi/Garen.
2-3 Wriggles Lantern on a team.
Ionic Spark Shen. :'(
The single patch mini-rework Taric was basically a 1v5 melee hyper carry.
.... When Riot wanted to make Janna "more interactive" which resulted in them buffing literally everything if you knew Janna isn't just a mindless shield bot and lead to a ~70% winrate IIRC.
On February 14 2020 03:40 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Also tempted to give honorable mention to Ardent Censer, which somehow in one patch, without even being buffed in that patch, went from "no one built it" to "you're trolling if you don't start Relic Shield on the ADC to help your support rush it even faster".
This one is so odd. Everyone on /jannamains knew it was busted for many patches in advance and Apdo had been ranting for months about how fucking stupid it was.... and then Riot buffed it again. Dont know if it was a gentleman's agreement about pros that they didn't start to use it until Worlds was locked on the patch or what the fuck was going on.
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Holy shit I forgot about tank Ahri that was some shit, I literally LOL'd when I read that
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Ionic Spark Shen. :'(
Wow, I totally forgot about that item, I actually abused Lightning Shen.
Ardent Censor is Nidalee's highest winrate item in Korean Soloqueue per op.gg
Most likely because if you're able to build it, you're winning anyway. Correlation /= causation.
Yeah, but like if you don't pop off then you're too poor to be sufficiently tanky and you do less damage now, too.
Tankiness is a cheaper build than pure DPS, and the components are cheaper/more incremental, i.e. Ruby Crystal, and the Resolve tree gives a lot of tankiness (Aftershock, Grasp). So a poor tank jungler is possible, but in this meta where carry junglers snowball out of control so hard, I wouldn't pick them without a good reason in soloQ.
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I would add annie and MF supports, even though annie made a name for herself as a viable support after that and is not considered trolling since then
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My favourite toplane pick was GP with the Zeusplank builld.
Max oranges, build shiv + wits (i think it was wits second) and then full tank. It's possible Wit's end was not in the build, but I'm quite sure it was..
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On February 15 2020 21:02 Uldridge wrote:
My favourite toplane pick was GP with the Zeusplank builld.
Max oranges, build shiv + wits (i think it was wits second) and then full tank. It's possible Wit's end was not in the build, but I'm quite sure it was..
Ahhhh. Yes!
Yeah, Wit's End was part of it to both make him tankier and to enhance his passive's magic damage.
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Not gonna lie I'm gonna miss Soraka/Sona top. Both because they're insanely fun to play but because if allowed to stay eventually people would find the "anti soraka" strats and it would evolve draft and allow even more champion/strategic diversity
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On February 15 2020 18:34 DarkCore wrote:Most likely because if you're able to build it, you're winning anyway. Correlation /= causation. Show nested quote +Yeah, but like if you don't pop off then you're too poor to be sufficiently tanky and you do less damage now, too. Tankiness is a cheaper build than pure DPS, and the components are cheaper/more incremental, i.e. Ruby Crystal, and the Resolve tree gives a lot of tankiness (Aftershock, Grasp). So a poor tank jungler is possible, but in this meta where carry junglers snowball out of control so hard, I wouldn't pick them without a good reason in soloQ.
No one is winning games when they build Ardent Censor on Nidalee. It is an item you buy if you are falling off and doing anything you can to hold on to relevance into a game where you either didn't create a carry type lead. It is a last ditch "please god carry my worthless ass" purchase. If anything it gets the opposite of the "mejai's" effect, because you generally only buy it when you play poorly.
Also, I'm not really sure tanky stats that worth it on most meta junglers, idk. But I also main Graves and Nidalee unless thje other guy picks like Shyv, Eve, Mundo, or Nunu in which case I pick braindead shit like Mundo, Warwick, and Trundle and just 50/50 an otherwise counter matchup.
On February 17 2020 13:49 chipmonklord17 wrote:
Not gonna lie I'm gonna miss Soraka/Sona top. Both because they're insanely fun to play but because if allowed to stay eventually people would find the "anti soraka" strats and it would evolve draft and allow even more champion/strategic diversity
Agreed. Mostly because either of those champions with Jungle Graves is like a 90% win, picks compliment each-others weaknesses perfectly.
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On February 17 2020 13:49 chipmonklord17 wrote:
Not gonna lie I'm gonna miss Soraka/Sona top. Both because they're insanely fun to play but because if allowed to stay eventually people would find the "anti soraka" strats and it would evolve draft and allow even more champion/strategic diversity
Yeah. I feel they were way too quick at jumping the nerf gun. I dont understand why they let Akali/Aatrox/Irelia be blatantly overpowered for ages but instantly nerf something like Soraka. Unless your champion does flashy things I guess you have to live in fear of the mighty nerf hammer.
Soraka comps remind me of goats from Overwatch which I also loved to play/watch. :'(
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it's actually very lame (riot's approach)
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I dont understand why they let Akali/Aatrox/Irelia be blatantly overpowered for ages but instantly nerf something like Soraka.
Because new champs, and also to sell dem skinz.
Soraka needed a nerf, the problem with anti Soraka comps is that it narrows your draft (a laner that can kill Soraka is not enough), and also gives up the ability to draft other strong meta picks. She's pretty safe for a top laner since she can lane from a distance and also doesn't need to farm well. But she doesn't need to be butchered, they should just rework her E, allowing more counterplay against her heal.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On February 15 2020 11:25 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2020 03:40 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Also tempted to give honorable mention to Ardent Censer, which somehow in one patch, without even being buffed in that patch, went from "no one built it" to "you're trolling if you don't start Relic Shield on the ADC to help your support rush it even faster". This one is so odd. Everyone on /jannamains knew it was busted for many patches in advance and Apdo had been ranting for months about how fucking stupid it was.... and then Riot buffed it again. Dont know if it was a gentleman's agreement about pros that they didn't start to use it until Worlds was locked on the patch or what the fuck was going on.
No, it's that pros were and remain fucking bad at builds. A brief history of Ardent:
+ Show Spoiler +
Honestly, the fact that it's hard to calculate optimality for builds means that actually paying attention to builds is the lowest-hanging fruit if I were a League analyst. There are so many absolute shit builds going around even at the pro level: the skew towards Rabadon's instead of Void Staff, the over-emphasis on Coup de Grace instead of Cut Down or Last Stand, Doublelift and others building Alacrity + Berserker's on Senna, people still building BC on Darius for some reason.
(LS is wrong about Morello though - the pros are right to build it, because there's so much healing in the game, and even passive health regen is basically enough to justify it, even before taking into account slot efficiency considerations.)
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I don't agree with LS on Morellos either, people build it because it also has a bunch of highly desirable stats (health, AP, MPen) which quite a few snowball heavy AP junglers really want, plus a debuff which is basically mandatory in the current meta. That's also why Riot nerfed it a few seasons ago.
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On February 18 2020 00:05 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2020 11:25 Jek wrote:On February 14 2020 03:40 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Also tempted to give honorable mention to Ardent Censer, which somehow in one patch, without even being buffed in that patch, went from "no one built it" to "you're trolling if you don't start Relic Shield on the ADC to help your support rush it even faster". This one is so odd. Everyone on /jannamains knew it was busted for many patches in advance and Apdo had been ranting for months about how fucking stupid it was.... and then Riot buffed it again. Dont know if it was a gentleman's agreement about pros that they didn't start to use it until Worlds was locked on the patch or what the fuck was going on. No, it's that pros were and remain fucking bad at builds. A brief history of Ardent: + Show Spoiler +Honestly, the fact that it's hard to calculate optimality for builds means that actually paying attention to builds is the lowest-hanging fruit if I were a League analyst. There are so many absolute shit builds going around even at the pro level: the skew towards Rabadon's instead of Void Staff, the over-emphasis on Coup de Grace instead of Cut Down or Last Stand, Doublelift and others building Alacrity + Berserker's on Senna, people still building BC on Darius for some reason. (LS is wrong about Morello though - the pros are right to build it, because there's so much healing in the game, and even passive health regen is basically enough to justify it, even before taking into account slot efficiency considerations.)
DL is so bad at Senna it hurts.
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You didn’t like Bjergsen’s no morello, no void after 3 items into Yuumi Ornn?
Actually this makes me think of a good post game stat to add, if on the damage to champions graph you could split it into damage to who/damage from who
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Darius can solo baron next patch with Warrior, Tabis, and Spirit Visage.
Likely constitutes an enormous buff to his top lane, as that means he can solo / 2-man baron at 20 minutes easily with top itemization, too.
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I think he's ability to assist with herald takes would be more important to overall viability.
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On February 18 2020 19:18 cLutZ wrote:
I think he's ability to assist with herald takes would be more important to overall viability.
Will it? I'm pretty sure every jungler in the game can solo rift herald quite safely if there is adequate map pressure and vision/
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On February 18 2020 04:49 Slusher wrote:
You didn’t like Bjergsen’s no morello, no void after 3 items into Yuumi Ornn?
Actually this makes me think of a good post game stat to add, if on the damage to champions graph you could split it into damage to who/damage from who
I know this is academy so they're barely even pro but Tuesday's Rumble build was so fucking bad I had to call it out here
https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/ESPORTSTMNT02/1291926?gameHash=2820c76e459af78e&tab=builds&participant=3
First he builds sorc boots into Liandry's. Good build, nothing wrong here. Then he builds a Zhonya's, and also picks up a refillable pot at 23:42. The Zhonya's is smart, the refillable pot at 23:42 is pretty weird, especially since he sells it at 26:02, but maybe it was a mouse slip.
Except at 26:02 he buys another Fiendish Codex. What? Why? Rumble doesn't need to rush CDR, he already has Zhonya's, so what, is he really going to replace an item in his build with Banshee's? Of course not - he builds Rabadon's while sitting on Codex, holding him back both slot-wise (he doesn't buy any more pinks for the rest of the game) as well as gold-wise.
Then he built SPELLBINDER WHILE STILL SITTING ON CODEX. On Rumble! Not the Void Staff that Rumble so desperately needs against a team where every champion has built MR. Spellbinder!
So then he SELLS the Spellbinder and the Codex to finally build Void Staff. AND THEN HE BUYS ANOTHER NEEDLESSLY LARGE ROD. When he already has a Deathcap, and literally just sold the Spellbinder that is the only other item NLR builds into!
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Bro, he's so much better than you at the game, I'm pretty sure he knows what he's doing to maximize his dps.
/hard s
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The /s wasn't needed, we are all 200 IQ memers here.
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Sorry, it's the internet, you can literally never be too careful/clear.
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I feel like sunfire buff makes metagolem poppy good again
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I don't think Riot could come up with a worse patch note format.
Random Lux question, when you R flash does the R start from where you started or where you flashed to?
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Not sure. I assume it would come with you like all other flash combos, like say Elise Eflash. But I'm not sure, tbh, I assumed it was a big buff (hence the Q nerf on a weak to mediocre champ), but maybe it just means you can cancel your ult animation with Flash and it's really not a huge deal.
On February 19 2020 06:59 Slusher wrote:
I feel like sunfire buff makes metagolem poppy good again
Again? Was she ever bad? I feel like that champion just has such high base damages and scales so well. Idk.
She can one shot half the junglers I play without items basically every game. Zzz... I banned her every game before Aphelios.
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On February 19 2020 07:40 iCanada wrote:Not sure. I assume it would come with you like all other flash combos, like say Elise Eflash. But I'm not sure, tbh, I assumed it was a big buff (hence the Q nerf on a weak to mediocre champ), but maybe it just means you can cancel your ult animation with Flash and it's really not a huge deal. Show nested quote +On February 19 2020 06:59 Slusher wrote:
I feel like sunfire buff makes metagolem poppy good again Again? Was she ever bad? I feel like that champion just has such high base damages and scales so well. Idk. She can one shot half the junglers I play without items basically every game. Zzz... I banned her every game before Aphelios.
See I took it as a "you can fire it and flash if you're in a shitty position" instead of a flash combo. I could see either being right.
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I still play her(Poppy) yes but I mean good as in fotm
As for Lux I had Chipmunklord’s interpretation, because it’s a self stun currently
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Holy shit those patch notes are even worse than I thought. I assumed that if you clicked on the champion icon at the top in the list of nerfs/buffs you'd go directly to that champ on the patch notes, its a fucking picture. Rito what are you doing
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EPT
