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On July 30 2019 23:17 Alaric wrote:I guess it gives him a sort-of-escape-mechanism, as in cast it and walk backwards and if they didn't nuke the damage too much it can be a deterrent (to champs who don't have the ability to just dash past it and punch him all the same). Old E has a lot of subtle power in that you'll miss several people if you cast it from too close since it's a cone, so if you just mash it you're missing out on a lot of "incidental" damage in teamfights. 3.6 bonus AD every 6 seconds can quickly whittle down supports and stacks up BC on tanks in a single cast to help your team go front to back (well it's been nerfed to 3 bonus AD awhile ago it seems). Show nested quote +On July 30 2019 21:28 iCanada wrote:
I dont think we needed doinb to show how oppressive spartan was when he was ahead... I've literally hit level 11 on pantheon before my lane opponent hit level 6 before. Pantheon taught me to manage the wave, since he's not good at shoving it but oppressively strong at zoning. The whole "it doesn't matter if I don't take the tower or don't cs too well because I'm better at 15 minutes with 100 cs than my opponent is at 70". And then he taught me about aggressively pushing your advantage around the map too because it doesn't matter if your opponent is useless if the enemy mid or marksman is 6-0, so time your shoving that your opponent doesn't get too much free farm then go dunk the other fool and tak drake while you're at it so your shat-on laners get some gold.
Yeah... That brings up the other thing I'm a touch salty about... A lot of Pantheons current play pattern is winning trades with passive and Q then controlling the wave, but his new design kind of kills that entirely. He won't be able to press leads near as hard now that he's got inherent Q waveclear on Qtap and a line skillshot on Qhold. I'm actually hoping it ignores minions when thrown, tbh. But we see i guess we'll see what happens. I feel a bit like a grumpy old man, but I've played pantheon for nearly a decade unchanged and I like him quite a bit.
But I guess that's the power budget we have to pay to have real skirmishing power on Q, a more reliable ult, and more malleable damage immunity.
As an aside... Reddit is tilting me with how many people have just assumed he's always been a generic bruiser. No wonder people don't like Pantheon, if you're going to build him that way, why pay him at all? Lol. Awful.
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I dunno, I looked at reddit out of curiosity since I'm pretty out of the loop, and the post in their majority seemed to say "designed as a bruiser, but was really an assassin, looks more like a bruiser with new kit".
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I think from the looks of the gameplay he is fairly similar. Only concern is maybe losing big damage on E, and Q auto pushing the wave. He looks like old pantheon atleast. Now to see how he feels.
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I dont really understand the argument about Pantheon and lanecontrol etc. Literally all champions' gameplay is about controling the wave, looking for good trades and when/how to impact the map/spread your lead it is how MOBAs are played. It's just easier on current Pantheon not a particular unique core of him.
But I do understand being annoyed about having your favorite champions reworked. I'd be pretty salty if Janna and Lulu got dramatically changed too. But considering how much emphasis they seem to put on trying to keep his style but just cooler I think his rework will turn out pretty good. He also looks much easier to balance than the Irelia/Akali* tragedy so I'm really optimistic about this one. 
*Champions they tried to keep authentic rather than completely rework like Aatrox
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I don't think with auto shoving abilities he can function top the same; he used to have good wave control in being able to shove or being able to freeze. Hard to freeze though when both your nukes will also nuke the wave. He'll likely be much better mid though.
I've been wrong in the past though.
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First, Aatrox's rework is kinda the norm. They rarely result in a good, easy to balance champion. So that is not an acceptable rationale for reworks anymore. Maybe 3-4 years ago this thought had promise, not anymore.
Personally I think that pretty much every rework has been in the vein of Aatrox, they all got more intricate kits where Riot had the possibility to adjust things besides damage numbers. And yeah, lots of them have failed miserably, the only one they've ever really gone back on was that Kog abomination.
Oh god, did he just block Syndra ult. More Yasuo windwall cancer?
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On July 31 2019 01:05 DarkCore wrote:Show nested quote +First, Aatrox's rework is kinda the norm. They rarely result in a good, easy to balance champion. So that is not an acceptable rationale for reworks anymore. Maybe 3-4 years ago this thought had promise, not anymore. Personally I think that pretty much every rework has been in the vein of Aatrox, they all got more intricate kits where Riot had the possibility to adjust things besides damage numbers. And yeah, lots of them have failed miserably, the only one they've ever really gone back on was that Kog abomination. Oh god, did he just block Syndra ult. More Yasuo windwall cancer?
I mean .... Lots of stuff blocks Syndra ult. Like fiora, xin, fizz, yasuo, Braum, Shaco, Kayle, kench, zed, Eve, Liss... I'm sure there are more I'm just going off memory.
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On July 31 2019 01:02 iCanada wrote:
I don't think with auto shoving abilities he can function top the same; he used to have good wave control in being able to shove or being able to freeze. Hard to freeze though when both your nukes will also nuke the wave. He'll likely be much better mid though.
I've been wrong in the past though.
If his Q is going to be AoE I dont think it's that much of a deal, it look like a fairly narrow but fast projectile so you wouldn't be clipping the entire wave. Afterall Maokai was all about spamming Q and he could still freeze if he wanted but I hope when thrown it is a champion only kind of skill - would be unique if nothing else. I think he'll be viable in top, mid and jungle (and since Perkz play whatever he want... G2 dream).
If new Q is considered AoE it wouldn't pull minion aggro right? Could his old Q hit enemy under tower when farming melee minions? Either would be lowkey strong new advantage I suppose.
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On July 31 2019 01:45 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2019 01:02 iCanada wrote:
I don't think with auto shoving abilities he can function top the same; he used to have good wave control in being able to shove or being able to freeze. Hard to freeze though when both your nukes will also nuke the wave. He'll likely be much better mid though.
I've been wrong in the past though. If his Q is going to be AoE I dont think it's that much of a deal, it look like a fairly narrow but fast projectile so you wouldn't be clipping the entire wave. Afterall Maokai was all about spamming Q and he could still freeze if he wanted but I hope when thrown it is a champion only kind of skill - would be unique if nothing else. I think he'll be viable in top, mid and jungle (and since Perkz play whatever he want... G2 dream). If new Q is considered AoE it wouldn't pull minion aggro right? Could his old Q hit enemy under tower when farming melee minions? Either would be lowkey strong new advantage I suppose.
Per the gameplay spotlight it's aoe and hits minions.
It shouldn't agro minions.
Old Q could hit them under tower if they were Midway in tower range, but I frequently used passive to just poke them while they hit under the tower.
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The main thing about reworks is usually the ones that are done solo are better than the ones done in batches. The Assassin update was a failure, ADC one was pretty fkn bad. Juggernaut one resulted in MEGA OP champs. Tank one (although only 3 champs) was bad considering the Zac one was reverted and Maokai is so fkn trash to play now.
The Aatrox update and the subsequent attempts at balance are so weird lol.
That trio of updated champs (Irelia/Akali/Aatrox) were allowed to just control the meta for over a year with many changes failing to fix the core problems of the champs.
Other updates that I liked/Improved upon the champ with some balance issues but overall a healthier champ: Sion/Taric/Poppy/Nunu/Swain**/Eve/Xin/Urgot/Warwick/Fiora
I think the solo updates in general were way better and Riot has learnt (or at least said that they've learnt) from attempting to do massive sweeping changes to classes in one go.
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The main thing about reworks is that Leblanc got reverted and so the game became twice as fun. That rework still makes me angry.
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EPT
