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On January 25 2019 05:50 killerdog wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2019 05:49 Gahlo wrote:On January 25 2019 05:44 killerdog wrote:On January 25 2019 05:29 Gahlo wrote:On January 25 2019 03:48 General_Winter wrote:
Looking at an extreme example may help illustrate this idea:
Imagine that half of all Riven games were people trying her for the first time and losing. And that the other half of her games were one tricks that had 10,000 games of experience on her and that they won at a 100% win rate. Her overall win rate would be 50%. But the champ would be busted beyond belief because everyone playing her correctly would have a 100% win rate.
All champions are like that to some degree, though obviously a lot less than in the example. There are some number of very new players who are dragging down the winrate and some number of players playing the champ correctly and winning at the champ’s actual win rate. We the players only can see the average of those two groups on win rate stat websites. So the average total winrate will always appear lower than it should be because new players drag down the rates. If a champ is very easy, new players don’t drag rates down as much. If the champ is hard, they drag it down more. So if you are just comparing average total win rates, you need to adjust for how easy the champ is. If you are looking at winrate for experienced players with similar numbers of games played on the champ you wouldn’t need to make that adjustment.
Actually not true, Champion.gg has win% based on game played. However, bringing up Riven is a good example, because people with 51+ games on her are winning about 54.5% of the time, while players in the 1-50 bracket are sub 50% with the aggregate winrate being 50.21% Non top 50 challenger one tricks having a 60+% winrate on a champion doesn't automatically mean that champion is broken. If I'm a hardcore riven onetrick my riven is diamond 1 level, and every other champion I play at a plat 5 level, then my riven winrate is going to be massively inflated if i only play soloq and don't always get my role. Making up some numbers, say I get riven in two thirds of my games, that means there's two thirds of my games where I'm playing at a diamond 3 level and one third where I'm playing at a plat 5 level. The exact stats are obviously impossible to know for sure, but lets say "plat 5 level play" has a 25% winrate at d4, and "d1 level play" has a 75% winrate at d4. If I play riven in just over half my games, then after enough games played i should average out at d3-ish mmr with a 65-70% winrate on riven. Does this mean riven is broken? No... It just means that I'm a d1 riven player with a vastly inflated winrate because all my riven games are spent stomping people two divisons lower than myself, and I'm going to keep stomping these worse people whenever i get riven because I lost most of my games when I don't play riven. These numbers are obviously pulled from thin air for illustrative purposes, but if you look at the vast majority of riven or yasuo or whatever one tricks who have a consistent 55+% winrate on their main but are also aren't in the process of climbing to their "true" mmr, they will have a ton of other champions with a sub 50% winrate which are keeping their from the mmr where they would have a 50% winrate with their main. I wasn't discussing MMR in the slightest. Relevant to champion or position. Are you saying that a smurf playing against worse players is a good metric for judging champion balance based purely off the smurfs winrate, because if not then you misunderstood my post. Unless you meant that riven was an example of a well balanced champion in the post i quoted in which case i misunderstood you. I assumed you were agreeing with the post you responded to. Champions like riven tend to be outliers like this because becoming a better riven player includes a lot of skills like combos and animation cancels which don't transfer directly to your ability to play other champions, whereas becoming better at a "lower mechanical skill cap" champion means improving other aspects of your game which are more likely to translate into other champions/roles. Hence one tricks of unique champions like riven are more likely to have a larger divergence in ability between their main and other champs, which leads to higher winrates on their one trick and lower winrates on everything else they play.
I'm discussing why just looking at flat winrates isn't a good way to judge how balanced a character is because of the circumstances of who is playing it. I was taking what they were saying and giving a more realistic version of the scenario because it is one I am familiar with.
Again, I don't care about the other champions these people play. I'm not discussing it.
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Some points:
-If a champion isn't picked very often, it can get a high winrate because people aren't used to playing against it.
-If a champion is strong in a certain meta, it can be "op" against the current popular champs but bad if they pick other champs. i.e rammus/malphite vs ad teams.
-A champion being "bad if played badly" like riven doesn't mean it's bad, you have to assume reasonable proficiency when analysing balance. On the other side, a champ being "good when played well" is an interesting one. If he's strong enough that a large % of players can learn to play it well enough to maintain the winrate it's probably "op". Buit if it's like riven with a low pick rate and high winrate for one tricks, most likely you can say that the winrate is only high because you have players with very high skill levels with that champion vs players who aren't used to playing against it.
Also, pushing a mechanically difficult champion to it's limits is a skill in itself that can justify your high winrate.
The "Easy champions are OP in low elo" statement is valid I would say. Because you have less ground to make mistakes they play on average better, but as long as the winrate isn't too crazy ( 55% I think is probably ok, if the pickrate isn't also insane) I don't think its a problem. They will increase in elo if they play easy champs a lot and then have to play easy champs vs slightly better players on less easy champs and it should balance out.
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Also we have to account for pro play. Its in Riot's interest and the viewers' interest that more things are playable so its not all Azir v. Ryze all day in the midlane. For that to be true, those guys are generally going to be pretty bad in soloQ. If they want to see Amumu or Janna or some other champs ever, they are going to be 52%+ etc etc
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-If a champion isn't picked very often, it can get a high winrate because people aren't used to playing against it.
I'd like some examples of this, because champion.gg lists many of the lowest win rate champs as some of the lowest play rates.
-If a champion is strong in a certain meta, it can be "op" against the current popular champs but bad if they pick other champs. i.e rammus/malphite vs ad teams.
That usually implies they are not op, but a solid counter pick. OP champs usually see high play/ban rates, or turn the meta around them (like S3 Renekton top).
Also, pushing a mechanically difficult champion to it's limits is a skill in itself that can justify your high winrate.
The problem with this is that LoL has had quite a few champions that fell into this category that were broken in the hands of those that could play them to their maximum potential. Examples include LB, every iteration of Ryze, Ahri, Cass, Azir, Yasuo etc. If playing a champion well means an auto win, or a very high chance of it, how is that balanced?
Also we have to account for pro play. Its in Riot's interest and the viewers' interest that more things are playable so its not all Azir v. Ryze all day in the midlane. For that to be true, those guys are generally going to be pretty bad in soloQ. If they want to see Amumu or Janna or some other champs ever, they are going to be 52%+ etc etc
Yes pro play is part of the balance equation, but is a completely different beast to soloQ. Makes balancing pretty hard for Riot.
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On January 25 2019 08:52 DarkCore wrote:Show nested quote +-If a champion isn't picked very often, it can get a high winrate because people aren't used to playing against it. I'd like some examples of this, because champion.gg lists many of the lowest win rate champs as some of the lowest play rates. Show nested quote +-If a champion is strong in a certain meta, it can be "op" against the current popular champs but bad if they pick other champs. i.e rammus/malphite vs ad teams. That usually implies they are not op, but a solid counter pick. OP champs usually see high play/ban rates, or turn the meta around them (like S3 Renekton top). Show nested quote +Also, pushing a mechanically difficult champion to it's limits is a skill in itself that can justify your high winrate. The problem with this is that LoL has had quite a few champions that fell into this category that were broken in the hands of those that could play them to their maximum potential. Examples include LB, every iteration of Ryze, Ahri, Cass, Azir, Yasuo etc. If playing a champion well means an auto win, or a very high chance of it, how is that balanced? Show nested quote +Also we have to account for pro play. Its in Riot's interest and the viewers' interest that more things are playable so its not all Azir v. Ryze all day in the midlane. For that to be true, those guys are generally going to be pretty bad in soloQ. If they want to see Amumu or Janna or some other champs ever, they are going to be 52%+ etc etc Yes pro play is part of the balance equation, but is a completely different beast to soloQ. Makes balancing pretty hard for Riot.
Answer to Q1: Let's look at mid for example. Rn the top 4 highest win rate champs are sub-2% pay rate. Safe to say, they're almost all being played by experienced players. The 5th highest is Galio who's P/B rate is 9% (i think almost everyone agrees he needs a nerf). Of course, mid is one of the most diverse in the game so let's check jungle (one of the lowest diversity roles traditionally). None of the top 5 win rate junglers has a greater than 5% pay rate. The highest play rate is Jax, who abuses an OP set of items in both top and jungle, but when picked correctly, matches up very well against most of the meta junglers who tend to be AA-based.
Q2: They aren't balanced. That's why they were nerfed to a status where playing this champion to its best gives you a higher chance of winning than someone playing a champion to its best that's easier to play.
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On January 25 2019 08:52 DarkCore wrote:
I'd like some examples of this, because champion.gg lists many of the lowest win rate champs as some of the lowest play rates.
I mean, I said they CAN have high winrates, not that they will. Loads of examples. Support kennen, Mid zilean, Top wukong.
On January 25 2019 08:52 DarkCore wrote:
That usually implies they are not op, but a solid counter pick. OP champs usually see high play/ban rates, or turn the meta around them (like S3 Renekton top).
You can be good against the meta champs without necessarily being a counter.
On January 25 2019 08:52 DarkCore wrote:
The problem with this is that LoL has had quite a few champions that fell into this category that were broken in the hands of those that could play them to their maximum potential. Examples include LB, every iteration of Ryze, Ahri, Cass, Azir, Yasuo etc. If playing a champion well means an auto win, or a very high chance of it, how is that balanced?
If it's too strong at all levels you can nerf it. If it's strong in the hands of a good player but not too strong at the top level isn't not an issue.
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Sylas is now out and after some testing he can gank with 100% health (in practice tool aka NO LEASH) on a lvl 3 rush if he run past chickens for the Talisman heal with a full camp hit Q.
I cant see this champion ever be balanced lol
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On January 26 2019 02:30 Jek wrote:
Sylas is now out and after some testing he can gank with 100% health (in practice tool aka NO LEASH) on a lvl 3 rush if he run past chickens for the Talisman heal with a full camp hit Q.
I cant see this champion ever be balanced lol
which role is supposed to be his main? mid?
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On January 26 2019 03:15 M2 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2019 02:30 Jek wrote:
Sylas is now out and after some testing he can gank with 100% health (in practice tool aka NO LEASH) on a lvl 3 rush if he run past chickens for the Talisman heal with a full camp hit Q.
I cant see this champion ever be balanced lol which role is supposed to be his main? mid?
No idea. Looks like he can be played top, mid and jungle in various ways.
EDIT: From my testing, I have only been able to test against immediate bots (picked them a standard comp) since I expect him to have 100% ban for a while.
With a bruiser build he can 1v5 in a kinda full build situation (I had full build they were 4, got too lazy to wait).
With a tank build he feels tankier than a "real" tank due to his shield AND heal.
With good targets to steal ults from he's bonkers in teamfights.
Haven't tried a full AP build yet.
He mows through jungle after first clear (havent tried to optimize runes). Used Transcendence on the bruiser, jungle and tank builds since all what seems to be good items on him have CDR.
Granted the tests were only from bots he feels silly overtuned. From my limited testing he feels like the old bruiser Ekko expect tankier with more damage but trades Ekko's slippery ult for his own utility ult.
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If what you say is true, then I'm might have to start not banning Kha, because tank Ekko was an abomination, and I thought Riot learned that champs like that are beyond stupid.
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I expect Riot to nerf his either his shield or heal or even both. He feel waaaay too tanky for what he offers.
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Anyone else getting super buggy pick and bans since Sylas came out? I played last night beforehand and there weren't too many issues, now I'm alternating between being stuck at the pick screen unable to hover, unable to ban, or sometimes unable to pick a champion.
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On January 26 2019 11:00 loSleb wrote:
Ask LEC.
my fucking sides
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How're everyone's promos going? Had a chance to start in diamond then inted two games and am now on tilt in Plat 1 zzzz
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I can't play ranked, Rito has a habit of not registering my inputs despite a smooth 30 fps 40 ping. I'm too scared to go into ranked and lose because Riot decided I wanted to walk face first into the enemy without casting abilities/autoing
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On January 26 2019 14:30 chipmonklord17 wrote:
I can't play ranked, Rito has a habit of not registering my inputs despite a smooth 30 fps 40 ping. I'm too scared to go into ranked and lose because Riot decided I wanted to walk face first into the enemy without casting abilities/autoing
I wouldn't call 30 fps smooth, but I've been getting the same thing.
Its kinda a little slight off the fucking earth shoot your brain into the sun tilting. Just like randomly for 3s game takes no input from you, meanwhile you at 180 FPS with 60 ping and your third party voice coms call is fine, and your router shows no change in service or significant packet loss.
I'm glad its not just me.
On January 26 2019 11:41 AdsMoFro wrote:
How're everyone's promos going? Had a chance to start in diamond then inted two games and am now on tilt in Plat 1 zzzz
3-0 in Soloqueue, 0-5 in flex. Eks Dee. I keep getting pretty nice Nidalee games in Soloqueue. So much easier to win on her when people playing 4real-zy, tbh.
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On January 26 2019 14:30 chipmonklord17 wrote:
I can't play ranked, Rito has a habit of not registering my inputs despite a smooth 30 fps 40 ping. I'm too scared to go into ranked and lose because Riot decided I wanted to walk face first into the enemy without casting abilities/autoing
Have you checked if you're dropping packets? You can get some pretty detailed data from your gamelogs using this site:
http://logsoflag.com/
On January 26 2019 11:41 AdsMoFro wrote:
How're everyone's promos going? Had a chance to start in diamond then inted two games and am now on tilt in Plat 1 zzzz
I dont wanna talk about it.....
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On January 26 2019 15:09 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2019 14:30 chipmonklord17 wrote:
I can't play ranked, Rito has a habit of not registering my inputs despite a smooth 30 fps 40 ping. I'm too scared to go into ranked and lose because Riot decided I wanted to walk face first into the enemy without casting abilities/autoing Have you checked if you're dropping packets? You can get some pretty detailed data from your gamelogs using this site: http://logsoflag.com/Show nested quote +On January 26 2019 11:41 AdsMoFro wrote:
How're everyone's promos going? Had a chance to start in diamond then inted two games and am now on tilt in Plat 1 zzzz I dont wanna talk about it.....
http://logsoflag.com/#dIY5mMFYSPT
Thats the last game where I had big input lag. I think its a Riot problem.
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Hmm. Was the input lag consistent through the game? There's some clusters of lost packets.
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EPT
