EPT[Patch 7.17] Ornn General Discussion - Page 6
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St3MoR
Spain3256 Posts
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On September 03 2017 21:23 kongoline wrote: guess as a guy who plays maybe 4-6 champions at a time i wont be getting many new shards under new system . You don't get many new shards under current system either? | ||
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
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kongoline
6318 Posts
On September 03 2017 22:10 Numy wrote: You don't get many new shards under current system either? ye but i still get IP per game which lets me buy new champions afaik in s8 that wont be the case ? | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On September 03 2017 23:31 kongoline wrote: ye but i still get IP per game which lets me buy new champions afaik in s8 that wont be the case ? Now instead of getting IP per game you get a capsule when you level. The Capsule can contain shards as well as Blue essence. Blue essence is being merged with IP while costs are all staying the same. They say it should net to be slightly more gain in the long term. So really it seems even better for players that play a few champs since now it's not tied to champs. Here is all the information, suggest taking a look. Unless I've grossly misread something I believe that is how it works going forward. http://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/2017/09/upcoming-changes-to-leveling-ip-rewards/ | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
Thats only 1260 per level. Thats the equivalent (a 50% winrate player) playing just under 9 (~25 minute) games in a single day. You gain an average of 100 Account Xp per game currently, and assuming the 29-30 Xp gap is the distance it'll be. you are looking at an average of just over 13 games per chest. So You are losing 4 games of IP per day if you play a lot. And significantly more if you play less often (No first win of the day to boost ya). You have to make up that IP with chest AND key drops. With which per season you can get a maximum of ~173880 IP from chest + Key drops (assuming you own every champ, play every champ, get chests and a key for every chest, and only ever get the highest IP amount possible from a chest), at the current champ amount. And a minimum, again assuming wrongly you only ever get champ shards of 11970. Which means if you play every single champ in the GAME, get 399 key fragments, and ONLY ever get 6300 IP shards, and never skin/gem (which there is a system to guarantee). Then you'll afford every champ ever. But if you get the minimum you'll fall behind about 4.1 champs per season a number, buying them at 6300. We have no idea how much the real average we'll be. we dont know the gambling odds of chests. the odds of cheap drops vs expensive ones. the rate at which you'll be forced to get skin shards.etc. But you get less IP from just playing the game. Assuming you grind 9+ games a day. And significantly significantly less IP per day if you play less, due to a lack of first win bonus. This system provides less to most players, though a few will be lucky and do very well. some will be extra screwed. They 'needed' to do this, only from a financial perspective. as runes were the IP sink for players, to force them to buy champs with RP.This works with newer accounts. but eventually accounts get the full set and never need to buy again. the options were release more runes to keep up the total value of the sink, and risk power creep, alienating new players with a gulf of grinding. Or remove rune system entirely and drastically cut IP gain. They did the latter. Also important to note when they are estimating 'you'll get IP at the same rate'. they are saying both that its random (some will get even faster!, neglecting to mention some folk will be screwed) and they expect everyone to be profiting constantly from honor drops and using every mastery chest, as well as factoring in no longer buying runes. They had to add in 3 other systems to balance out how much IP you are losing over old system. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
Otherwise most of it checks out. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On September 04 2017 05:20 Slusher wrote: Level up chests will come unlocked, no key required. Yes. i was assuming that as well since they said so. Mastery chests though. you need 3 key fragment drops to access. which is the point. Assuming each champ is equally likely to be found in a chest. and you only find champ shards A Chest is worth an average of 762.18 IP. Assuming each value is equally likely to be found in a chest, and you only find champ shards A Chest if worth an average of 642 IP. In reality we know that these cases are worth less, because of skin shards/gems. But we dont know whether either of these methods are used. Assuming the most favorable to the player and moving forward. This is the equivalent of 6 twenty-five minute games at a 50% winrate With no Win/Day Bonus. ~4.82 Games with the Win bonus. You need to open an average of 1.165 Chests per 13 games, In addition to your free level up chest in order to maintain the same IP gain. Assuming you never got first win of the day before or after. Which means you'd need 3.495 key fragments every 13 games. Im not sure about you guys. but i definitely am not getting a key fragment every 4 games. Again, assume the real numbers are pushed further against the player in every way, due to mandating you get non champ shards every once in a while, and have a chance to not get champ shards. Which will be SOMEWHAT countered by being able to get multidrops from chests But for the multidrops to balance out you'd need to get more than 2 items per chest. but they said it s a chance to get up to 2. So its not really much of a factor in measuring how much you are losing. | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On September 04 2017 05:17 PrinceXizor wrote: Also important to note when they are estimating 'you'll get IP at the same rate'. they are saying both that its random (some will get even faster!, neglecting to mention some folk will be screwed) and they expect everyone to be profiting constantly from honor drops and using every mastery chest, as well as factoring in no longer buying runes. They had to add in 3 other systems to balance out how much IP you are losing over old system. This is kind of unfair since the whole point is that it all comes in one package. It's just as valid to say that they added in BE to reduce how much IP were you gaining from the other three systems being added. I personally think gutting WotD is a really, really poor business move from Riot's part. A lot of people log in for that "first win" bonus each day. They should absolutely keep that. Apart from that ... it's hard to care about this sort of thing. The game is the game, and there's this weird new metagame evolving alongside it with loot, mastery, chests, capsules, etc. Some people get all butthurt because they've calculated that they're getting 4.65% less internet points in the new metagame, or because they spent their imaginary internet points on things that are going away, and want refunds, and are somehow getting refunds (why?), but now they're mad that their refunds aren't at a favorable enough ratio to the new internet points. But does anybody really actually care about this? It's just all bullshit and noise designed to keep people with poor financial sense engaged in the game, like all F2P games. The game is intentionally designed so that fiscally prudent people can enjoy it without spending much money and dumb people can spend hundreds or thousands on useless shit to pay for everybody else to enjoy LCS. If you're smart you can extract extra value out of it in exchange for playing the game, and so I guess people are complaining that they aren't able to squeeze more value out of it now. But the system doesn't exist for that purpose. At the end of the day it's to get money from fools who need reasons to spend their money on useless shit. So bitching about it is like bitching about Vegas. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
1. Reliability vs. RNGA fundamental "promise" or at least difference between LOL and a game like Hearthstone is there were really reliable IP (if not great) gains that would let you power up to competitive levels and let you fill out your roster without either spending a buttload of cash, or grinding for 6 hours a day (like WOW, but in a much more stressful game environment than 95% of WOW). This repeals a bit of that promise. It makes LOL more like a GASHA game, which sucks, because GASHA games usually end up sucking for F2P or lite-P2P players long term because you can't avoid unlucky streaks. A selling point of LOL was that it wasn't Vegas, it was Disney World on a good day where you could still get on rides even without the Fastpass. 2. Lowering FTP Progression Look, IP gains are too low right now and have been for years. 2 games/day 5 days a week has not been enough to keep up even with the much slower release schedule (and I like the slower release schedule). They reduced IP once before and people were mad. People are going to be, and frankly should be, mad if there is any chance of getting less blue essence than we get IP now. I mean no FWOTD basically wipes out 1/2 my IP gains for most days. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On September 05 2017 12:26 cLutZ wrote: I think the problem I see with it is mostly 2 things. 1. Reliability vs. RNGA fundamental "promise" or at least difference between LOL and a game like Hearthstone is there were really reliable IP (if not great) gains that would let you power up to competitive levels and let you fill out your roster without either spending a buttload of cash, or grinding for 6 hours a day (like WOW, but in a much more stressful game environment than 95% of WOW). This repeals a bit of that promise. It makes LOL more like a GASHA game, which sucks, because GASHA games usually end up sucking for F2P or lite-P2P players long term because you can't avoid unlucky streaks. A selling point of LOL was that it wasn't Vegas, it was Disney World on a good day where you could still get on rides even without the Fastpass. I totally agree. And you really think LoL is like Hearthstone? You can't play Hearthstone competitively without spending money. No amount of skill is gonna let you rank up with your basic F2P deck. Same is not true for League - except for runes, which hey, they got rid of! 2. Lowering FTP Progression Look, IP gains are too low right now and have been for years. 2 games/day 5 days a week has not been enough to keep up even with the much slower release schedule (and I like the slower release schedule). They reduced IP once before and people were mad. People are going to be, and frankly should be, mad if there is any chance of getting less blue essence than we get IP now. I mean no FWOTD basically wipes out 1/2 my IP gains for most days. For people who already own most/all champs, this is a prime example of who cares? For people who don't, it sounds like they actually benefit under the new system. The combination of champ shards + not needing to spend on runes means they acquire their champions considerably faster. And, besides, this is the point of my post - this is Vegas. Riot earns a lot from people spending RP to buy champions. At its core your post is assuming that you "need" to own 136 champions. No one needs 136 champions. This isn't Dota, where not owning X puts you at a huge disadvantage competitively. People climb to Challenger playing shit like AD Ahri. So if there's no competitive disadvantage, then I honestly don't really give a fuck about people complaining they don't own all the champions, because there's no reason they should. Imagine if in Hearthstone you could hit rank 1 with your starting free pack, and yet people complained it took too long to collect all the other cards from free packs. That's why they ain't free, cause you don't need them. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On September 05 2017 13:26 GrandInquisitor wrote: I totally agree. And you really think LoL is like Hearthstone? You can't play Hearthstone competitively without spending money. No amount of skill is gonna let you rank up with your basic F2P deck. Same is not true for League - except for runes, which hey, they got rid of! No. You took it way too far. I contrasted LOL with Hearthstone (which I haven't even played past the initial missions and a few PVP games, so I am no master of, but its the most famous GASHA game IMO). I said this potentially makes it more like Hearthstone, which I just don't like that design direction. On September 05 2017 13:26 GrandInquisitor wrote: For people who already own most/all champs, this is a prime example of who cares? For people who don't, it sounds like they actually benefit under the new system. The combination of champ shards + not needing to spend on runes means they acquire their champions considerably faster. And, besides, this is the point of my post - this is Vegas. Riot earns a lot from people spending RP to buy champions. At its core your post is assuming that you "need" to own 136 champions. No one needs 136 champions. This isn't Dota, where not owning X puts you at a huge disadvantage competitively. People climb to Challenger playing shit like AD Ahri. So if there's no competitive disadvantage, then I honestly don't really give a fuck about people complaining they don't own all the champions, because there's no reason they should. Imagine if in Hearthstone you could hit rank 1 with your starting free pack, and yet people complained it took too long to collect all the other cards from free packs. That's why they ain't free, cause you don't need them. Nah, I don't assume that at all. I have like 40k IP and dozens of unlocked champions. Part of this is role selection, part of it is just finding champs boring. I do think that not having all 136 does put you at a competitive disadvantage simply because character swapping is so powerful outside of blindpick (but its probably more like 100 that you need then). Also the "AD Ahri" thing is stupid thing to bring up. The relevant standard is whether 2 players, given the same talent, dedication, and practice are on the same level, or at least close enough. I don't care if those guys are bronze 5 or Challenger, my preferred design is that they are the same. Part of this is me not wanting to pull the ladder up behind me, and part of it is that if I roleswapped my 40k excess IP would be gone in a second (if the meta hated me). Lets say I start wanting to be a toplaner because I love Cho and Jax, and actually fairly good and they are good so I win lots. Then my boys get nerfed, and the meta is Ornn/Aatrox/Gnar/Kled. I'm fine, I can buy these new OP guys, but some other guy can't, probably. If I buy them, then decide I want to switch to mid, and mid is infested with A-Sol, Lucian, and Lissandra, + new champ, I'm out of IP, and that is hilarious but still stupid given how active I am, and how long I have been (which goes back to my initial point of them being slow). So its both risk management and altruism combined for me here. | ||
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rbetenoire
United States28 Posts
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
For people who don't, it sounds like they actually benefit under the new system. The combination of champ shards + not needing to spend on runes means they acquire their champions considerably faster. And, besides, this is the point of my post - this is Vegas. Riot earns a lot from people spending RP to buy champions. Thought this was the whole point of the update. | ||
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On September 05 2017 14:00 cLutZ wrote: No. You took it way too far. I contrasted LOL with Hearthstone (which I haven't even played past the initial missions and a few PVP games, so I am no master of, but its the most famous GASHA game IMO). I said this potentially makes it more like Hearthstone, which I just don't like that design direction. Except that this exactly the design direction you claim to want, because it removes runes, which is a way larger barrier to a level playing field than owning the right champions. Nah, I don't assume that at all. I have like 40k IP and dozens of unlocked champions. Part of this is role selection, part of it is just finding champs boring. I do think that not having all 136 does put you at a competitive disadvantage simply because character swapping is so powerful outside of blindpick (but its probably more like 100 that you need then). Also the "AD Ahri" thing is stupid thing to bring up. The relevant standard is whether 2 players, given the same talent, dedication, and practice are on the same level, or at least close enough. I don't care if those guys are bronze 5 or Challenger, my preferred design is that they are the same. Part of this is me not wanting to pull the ladder up behind me, and part of it is that if I roleswapped my 40k excess IP would be gone in a second (if the meta hated me). Lets say I start wanting to be a toplaner because I love Cho and Jax, and actually fairly good and they are good so I win lots. Then my boys get nerfed, and the meta is Ornn/Aatrox/Gnar/Kled. I'm fine, I can buy these new OP guys, but some other guy can't, probably. If I buy them, then decide I want to switch to mid, and mid is infested with A-Sol, Lucian, and Lissandra, + new champ, I'm out of IP, and that is hilarious but still stupid given how active I am, and how long I have been (which goes back to my initial point of them being slow). So its both risk management and altruism combined for me here. A person who claims they can't climb because their champions aren't in meta is the saddest of excuses. If you are Silver 3 you aren't going to hit Gold just because you switched mains to the "meta". More generally skill expression in League is tied very little, if at all, to champion selection. This is different from Hearthstone, where ~70% of your skill is determined by stuff you pay for, and there are literal unwinnable matchups unless you buy certain cards. Nothing like that is true in League. The only people for whom your argument is true are the absolute beginners - the sub 30's that need a jungler other than Warwick and Nunu. And this system is way better for them. The only people that suffer are people who play a ton, and if they're complaining, it's not because of competitive disadvantage, it's that they can't stand to be earning fewer imaginary internet points now. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On September 06 2017 00:42 Slusher wrote: I think Ornn is not that bad after the hotfix, if they do the max hp change to w, he might be pro viable, def rank up viable. I mean I think he was fine before the hotfix. Just don't do this ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/AinzsVE.png) | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
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DarkCore
Germany4194 Posts
On September 05 2017 23:42 GrandInquisitor wrote: Except that this exactly the design direction you claim to want, because it removes runes, which is a way larger barrier to a level playing field than owning the right champions. A person who claims they can't climb because their champions aren't in meta is the saddest of excuses. If you are Silver 3 you aren't going to hit Gold just because you switched mains to the "meta". More generally skill expression in League is tied very little, if at all, to champion selection. This is different from Hearthstone, where ~70% of your skill is determined by stuff you pay for, and there are literal unwinnable matchups unless you buy certain cards. Nothing like that is true in League. The only people for whom your argument is true are the absolute beginners - the sub 30's that need a jungler other than Warwick and Nunu. And this system is way better for them. The only people that suffer are people who play a ton, and if they're complaining, it's not because of competitive disadvantage, it's that they can't stand to be earning fewer imaginary internet points now. I still believe you can make it Diamond without any real skills, with any champion. I started climbing in S3 by writing a list of 16 champions I would play, 3-4 for each role. For the roles I sucked at, I wrote noob champs like Singed and Mundo. You can still play these champions and win games, in fact Singed was arguably reworked to be stronger. The only time you're going to be at a massive disadvantage in low elos is when you meet someone who knows their champion better and maybe counters you, which is basically the exact opposite of what his whole argument was. Not everything is viable in League, it's why we have a meta. But in 95% of the cases, that doesn't matter to 98% of the player base, because the more important thing is their own skill. | ||
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