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On May 21 2016 03:43 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2016 03:27 NpG)Explosive wrote:On May 21 2016 02:41 iCanada wrote:On May 20 2016 16:56 MuddyJam wrote:On May 20 2016 16:49 Alaric wrote:On May 20 2016 11:00 Uldridge wrote:On May 20 2016 10:13 iCanada wrote:
I think LoL is a better game without Ryze. He is pretty much old Mordekeiser with CC and range. Either you poop on him real hard, kite him real hard, and finish the game early, or he wins. Every time. Isn't a binary outcome always what happens in a game of LoL? Are you in some kind of quantum-dimension where people can have 0,7 win and 0,3 loss after a game? How do you actually experience this polarity of a game with Ryze in it? Isn't it the same story with a Twitch on your or the enemy's team? What about Jinx? What about Azir? What about any other hyperscaling champion in the game that needs to be locked down with cc before you can kill them decently? Actually Ryze is some kind of mage juggernaut (albeit less tanky) that should be treated as one instead of your generic burst/control mage. If he gets on a carry and can't be kited, he'll win the game for you. And he should, since he was able to get close to your carries. Thing is with his damage he can burst tanks down almost all the same, and with the very low CD on his ult and its MS buff he will catch people anyway, or if any of his teammates catch a carry he'll get on them (unless somebody choke-full with cc or an assassin dives him to keep him busy, and that'll usually just feed him a kill at that point in the game). And re:curves, it's not like Ryze's early game is bad. Even after they made Q a skillshot he still trucked melee champs from level 1 because E when people need to walk near the wave to last hit was dumb. Making W a skillshot isn't the solution though, you still need champs like him to deal with eg. Kalista or Lucian. Champions with short range MUST have the ability to burn through tanks or they will be terrible. He isn't hitting that adc vs good players if he can't. Same principle with cass, mord and azir. If they have longer range or a gap closure they get less continuous damage because they can snipe the backline. Literally no other champion in the game can burn through tanks with 2 defensive items itemized against their damage type the way Ryze can. There are literally 30 immobile mages with considerably less movespeed and CC than Ryze. No other champion gets a Voidstaff worth of magic pen just for using their E. A Ryze with Voidstaff ignores literally 71% of your Magic Resist. Add 7% from masteries that is 78% magic pen. Add 15 MPen from Boots and 8 from runes So 78% Mpen + 23 Flat Mpen. Consider full item tank scared of Ryze; has Randiuns (500 HP) Sunfire OR DMP (500 HP) SV (55 MR + 500 HP) BV (70 MR+300 HP), Mercs (25 MR), and one misc item. Thats 2k base HP + 1800 HP from items. 53.5 base MR + 20 from runes / masteries, plus 150 from items. In total you have 3800 HP and 223.5 MR. Similarly farmed Ryze has 600 AP, 3.2k Mana. Seraphs + RoA + VoidStaff + Frozen Heart + Sorc Shoes + GA. Full Ryze combo will get off WQEQWQEQW if well primed and prepped.So you're getting off 2 E's, 4 Q's, and 3 W's. Ryze Q = 200 + 0.55(600) + 0.04(3200) = 658 Ryze W= 160 + 0.4(600) + ).025(3200) = 480 Ryze E = 2.5[100 + 0.2(600) + 0.01(3200)] = 630 So combo damage = 2(630) + 4(658) + 3(480) = 5332 before damage reduction. Our tank friend has 223.5 MR, reduced by Percent pen to 49.17 [223.5*(1-0.78)]. Further reduced by flat pen to 26.17 MR. So our damage multiplier is equal to 100/(100+26.17) = 0.7926 Our tank takes 5332 * 0.7926 = 4226 damage nearly instantly and dies. That's not burning tanks, that is one shotting tanks. I know Ryze won't have the full E penetration for the whole fight, but he will before the second W is put into effect. There is also residual damage from else where (ie an ADC to consider). (As an aside, if I was a Ryze player I'd build Abyssal. Jesus. The True Damage, or if player is not a tank with MR the damage amplification from having greater Flat pen then they have MR) The problem with your example is that it's based on % penetration stacking additivly. % pen does stack additively. But you are right, Voidstaff is percentage magic penetration and Ryze E is percentage magic resistance reduction. These are different things and have different calculation steps and is therefor multiplicative. My mistake there. However, that still means our poor Tank only gets 1*(1-0.42)*(1-0.36) = 0.3712 times his normal MR. So he is sitting at instead 82.9 MR, reduced to 59.2 MR. Damage Multiplier is now 0.6282. Our tank takes 3550 damage. Not actually dead, but pretty much dead. One auto attack away (250 HP), and he has been rooted for the last 3 seconds. Show nested quote +On May 21 2016 03:32 Slusher wrote:
I mean as I said then the whole conversation started he's down 20 base damage on Q on pbe, which is easily 100+ per combo the way Ryze works, and his rank 3 ult is +1m
I mean iCanada is so tilted over Ryze he's managed to draw pushback despite everyone thinking Ryze is op. Personally I think the changes currently on the pbe are a pretty reasonable place to start, why weren't they in 6.10 when he's been op for a while? idk, but with hope they won't revert the current pbe iteration. I mean... you've played against him right? You saw the calculation, 100 damage is nothing in that combo. He hits so hard.
Except it doesn't 
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
If percentage penetration stacked additively you'd have a lot bigger problems in League than just Ryze. It would be League of Black Cleavers on Wukong / Renekton / et al.
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Also the thing with Ryze, is you also have to ask how much of the problem is not having an Elise/Pantheon/Lee sort of jungle meta as opposed to the current (aside from SKT) farm heavy, fast clearing, shit ganking set of junglers; and the generally nonpunishable TP mid. The Ryze counter has always been early dives.
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Towers were buffed and you could say that about any champ that doesn't have strong early waveclear
early tower divers are not a consistently effect strategy and can be transparent and easy to counter
usually an early "dive" is a gank where the guy was low and not quite within his turret anyway
ryze isn't that squishy really and saying that a champ is supposed to be broken if you don't pick two champions that can early dive him and hope that the other jungle doesn't notice well that's just terrible design.
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There are a lot of things champs are supposed to do in league. The problem is when you conflate imbalance and brokenness. Particularly because the imbalance is created mostly by a reticence to balance a lategame champ around an elite lategame.
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On May 21 2016 04:52 GrandInquisitor wrote:
If percentage penetration stacked additively you'd have a lot bigger problems in League than just Ryze. It would be League of Black Cleavers on Wukong / Renekton / et al.
Well no. The reason we don't have league of BC is because BCs pen is unique (and because a lot of its value is in the CDR now), the stacking didn't change from then*
*technically the order of stacking changed right before league of BC but still no changes since the
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Played 3 games with swain.
You have absolutely ludicrous sustain in fights now. I built RoA SV dcap GA zhonya's and just waded into fights. Any birds that return after GA proc's gives you HP for when you come back up(This is kinda silly). I came back with something like 1800 hp and just went straight back into the fight. Not the most bursty of characters, but the AoE dps is definitely there.
I took 30% more damage that game than the enemy maokai. Can't quite kill the ADC solo through double lifesteal(maw/BT), but I can keep everybody else out of the fight, and survive focus with zhonya/GA.
The sustain change definitely moved him very far in the other direction. He's just incredibly tanky now if a support or tank is in the fight doing no damage to him.
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On May 21 2016 04:52 GrandInquisitor wrote:
If percentage penetration stacked additively you'd have a lot bigger problems in League than just Ryze. It would be League of Black Cleavers on Wukong / Renekton / et al.
It does.
You can't have league of cleavers because you can only have 1 pen bonus from cleavers because it is a "unique" or 1 of a kind bonus. It stacks additively with LW unless I am totally out to lunch. Hell, the game WAS league of Cleavers till they made it so you only get one armor pen passive.
I'm 90% sure all pen does, otherwise you wouldn't see people buy both Void and Liandry's ever, but it has been done in pro games.
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On May 21 2016 08:26 iCanada wrote:
It does.
You can't have league of cleavers because you can only have 1 pen bonus from cleavers because it is a "unique" or 1 of a kind bonus. It stacks additively with LW unless I am totally out to lunch. Hell, the game WAS league of Cleavers till they made it so you only get one armor pen passive.
I'm 90% sure all pen does, otherwise you wouldn't see people buy both Void and Liandry's ever, but it has been done in pro games.
%pen != flat pen
Liandry's and magic pen boots are 15 flat magic pen, runes and masteries can do this too.
Abyssal is magic resist reduction (which is the only stat that can make you deal more than true damage)
Void staff and masteries are the only items/stats (probably certain mages have them in their spells idk) that reduce a % of your mr.
Flat stacks additively I think while %pen stacks multiplicatively, no?
Oh and the priorities of penetrations for the calculation in final mr for damage: % pen > flat pen > reduction
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On May 21 2016 08:26 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2016 04:52 GrandInquisitor wrote:
If percentage penetration stacked additively you'd have a lot bigger problems in League than just Ryze. It would be League of Black Cleavers on Wukong / Renekton / et al. It does. You can't have league of cleavers because you can only have 1 pen bonus from cleavers because it is a "unique" or 1 of a kind bonus. It stacks additively with LW unless I am totally out to lunch. Hell, the game WAS league of Cleavers till they made it so you only get one armor pen passive. I'm 90% sure all pen does, otherwise you wouldn't see people buy both Void and Liandry's ever, but it has been done in pro games.
Flat pen and %pen are completely different. Flat pen is applied after %pen - some seasons ago it was the other way around. Cleaver isn't armor pen, it's armor shred and applied before everything else - consider it a debuff since your allies benefit from it too like J4 Q and such. Armor shred stacks multiplicately with itself.
%pen also stacks multiplicately with itself, you can see it on your char stats if you mess around with the level the %pen in fervor tree and have a Last Whisper/Void staff. 1 point gives you 36% and 5 gives you 40%.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
On May 21 2016 05:31 cLutZ wrote:
Also the thing with Ryze, is you also have to ask how much of the problem is not having an Elise/Pantheon/Lee sort of jungle meta as opposed to the current (aside from SKT) farm heavy, fast clearing, shit ganking set of junglers; and the generally nonpunishable TP mid. The Ryze counter has always been early dives.
The top lane ryze counter maybe, but diving midlane is usually dangerous as fuck
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I believe it scales the grading based on game time. Not many 15 minute games outside of Open Mid in Korea.
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On May 21 2016 08:50 Jek wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2016 08:26 iCanada wrote:On May 21 2016 04:52 GrandInquisitor wrote:
If percentage penetration stacked additively you'd have a lot bigger problems in League than just Ryze. It would be League of Black Cleavers on Wukong / Renekton / et al. It does. You can't have league of cleavers because you can only have 1 pen bonus from cleavers because it is a "unique" or 1 of a kind bonus. It stacks additively with LW unless I am totally out to lunch. Hell, the game WAS league of Cleavers till they made it so you only get one armor pen passive. I'm 90% sure all pen does, otherwise you wouldn't see people buy both Void and Liandry's ever, but it has been done in pro games. Flat pen and %pen are completely different. Flat pen is applied after %pen - some seasons ago it was the other way around. Cleaver isn't armor pen, it's armor shred and applied before everything else - consider it a debuff since your allies benefit from it too like J4 Q and such. Armor shred stacks multiplicately with itself. %pen also stacks multiplicately with itself, you can see it on your char stats if you mess around with the level the %pen in fervor tree and have a Last Whisper/Void staff. 1 point gives you 36% and 5 gives you 40%.
Due to the small numbers this barely effects any damage calculation. Nice to know the real calculation, apparently all the wiki's are wrong.
/shrug
On May 21 2016 11:06 Gahlo wrote:I believe it scales the grading based on game time. Not many 15 minute games outside of Open Mid in Korea.
I feel like there is a lot of randomness. I think Riot just randomly throws a number and calls it a day. Half the games I feel like i hard carried I get like A- or some shit, then I get carried real hard by just not feeding and barely losing mid lane and get S+ scores.
One game from the Jungle I legit had 100% Kill Participation in a 40 minute game, led the game in damage dealt, damage taken and gold, and it only gave me an A. Next game 1/0/6 on Anivia, legit answered a work phone call [Barely farming, not really putting on any map pressure or trading] for like 15 minutes in the middle of the game and barely factored into getting carried, S+.
I don't really understand it, at any rate.
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So for the past 10+ games I've played Kindred I've done little more than just die over and over and over again on the champ. Yet whenever I go against an opposing Kindred they just 1v5 my entire team. Any ideas/help on what I'm doing wrong with this champ?
Runes are standard ADC ones, though I've seen some go a mix of armor+HP yellows, and some go CDR + scaling CDR blues. Mastery page is 18/0/12, grabbing Fervor and taking the health and bonus health regen from right side. I look for ganks when I can, mark people just as I go into lane, look for free marks to grab (skuttle crab, raptors, etc.) and throw down a fair bit of vision via pinks + trinket wards pre-9, and post-9 I grab Oracle Lens and keep moving my pink around when I have room for it.
I've been maxing Q - W - E, grabbing R at the obvious break points. I try to go into lane with Q, land the E, then pop W and start hopping and AAing people down, trying to coordinate ganks with my lane partners.
Normal build items I go for are Bloodrazor, Hurricane, Hexdrinker/Maw, BotRK, Sterraks, or Rapidfire as the situation calls for, with Zerker boots or Swifties.
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It could be so many things you do wrong honestly.
Do you overestimate her mobility and do you get caught easily? --> Play her more safely, don't get into melee range, respect their gapclosers
Are your gankpaths too obvious? --> Kindred can hop over small walls (dragon pit, wall next left from bot tri-bush to bypass vision in tri, baron pit, ...)
Do you gank at the correct time?
Are you stronger in the 2v2, 3v3, 3v2? Last one should be obvious, but sometimes it's not..
Howmuch farm do you have at 10, 20, 30 minutes?
Who do you focus in teamfights? What about skirmishes?
Based on that info I think more experienced Kindred players could help you more. I think it's almost never runes, builds or skilldistribution (unless very obvious) when people have problems with something, but it's almost always gameplay.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On May 21 2016 12:17 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2016 08:50 Jek wrote:On May 21 2016 08:26 iCanada wrote:On May 21 2016 04:52 GrandInquisitor wrote:
If percentage penetration stacked additively you'd have a lot bigger problems in League than just Ryze. It would be League of Black Cleavers on Wukong / Renekton / et al. It does. You can't have league of cleavers because you can only have 1 pen bonus from cleavers because it is a "unique" or 1 of a kind bonus. It stacks additively with LW unless I am totally out to lunch. Hell, the game WAS league of Cleavers till they made it so you only get one armor pen passive. I'm 90% sure all pen does, otherwise you wouldn't see people buy both Void and Liandry's ever, but it has been done in pro games. Flat pen and %pen are completely different. Flat pen is applied after %pen - some seasons ago it was the other way around. Cleaver isn't armor pen, it's armor shred and applied before everything else - consider it a debuff since your allies benefit from it too like J4 Q and such. Armor shred stacks multiplicately with itself. %pen also stacks multiplicately with itself, you can see it on your char stats if you mess around with the level the %pen in fervor tree and have a Last Whisper/Void staff. 1 point gives you 36% and 5 gives you 40%. Due to the small numbers this barely effects any damage calculation. Nice to know the real calculation, apparently all the wiki's are wrong. /shrug
Tell me, which of "the wiki's" that you consulted were wrong and led you to believe that percentage penetration stacked additively?
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor_penetration Percentage armor penetration stacks multiplicatively
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_penetration Percentage magic penetration stacks multiplicatively
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Stacking Effects that stack multiplicatively:
* Attack speed reduction
* Armor penetration, percent
* Armor reduction, percent
* Damage reduction†
* Magic penetration, percent
* Magic resistance reduction, percent
* Crowd control reduction
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Void_Staff Combining Void Staff with Piercing Thoughts yields 35.91 / 36.82 / 37.73 / 38.64 / 39.55% magic penetration (rather than 36.4 / 37.8 / 39.2 / 40.6 / 42% since percent magic penetration stacks multiplicatively). Percent magic penetration stacks multiplicatively with other percent magic penetration abilities.
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Last_Whisper Percentage armor penetration stacks multiplicatively with other percentage armor penetration abilities.
http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Piercing_Thoughts_(Season_2016_Mastery) This mastery stacks multiplicatively with Void Staff.
Granting 35.91 / 36.82 / 37.73 / 38.64 / 39.55% magic penetration with the Void Staff item.png Void Staff.
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On May 21 2016 17:22 Kinie wrote:
So for the past 10+ games I've played Kindred I've done little more than just die over and over and over again on the champ. Yet whenever I go against an opposing Kindred they just 1v5 my entire team. Any ideas/help on what I'm doing wrong with this champ?
Runes are standard ADC ones, though I've seen some go a mix of armor+HP yellows, and some go CDR + scaling CDR blues. Mastery page is 18/0/12, grabbing Fervor and taking the health and bonus health regen from right side. I look for ganks when I can, mark people just as I go into lane, look for free marks to grab (skuttle crab, raptors, etc.) and throw down a fair bit of vision via pinks + trinket wards pre-9, and post-9 I grab Oracle Lens and keep moving my pink around when I have room for it.
I've been maxing Q - W - E, grabbing R at the obvious break points. I try to go into lane with Q, land the E, then pop W and start hopping and AAing people down, trying to coordinate ganks with my lane partners.
Normal build items I go for are Bloodrazor, Hurricane, Hexdrinker/Maw, BotRK, Sterraks, or Rapidfire as the situation calls for, with Zerker boots or Swifties.
Nothing looks wrong with your build but I think that kind of stuff matters much less on a jungler (unless you're dying to red buff). Something that might seem obvious is that you don't want the jungle camp marks to be your highest priority. Typically if you can gank a lane and blow a summoner or get a kill it will almost always be more useful for your team than the %hp damage, at lower elos the mark will bait the enemy jungler into messing up his jungle route and force him onto one side of the map, use that to your advantage. Aside from that the obvious stuff, it's soloq so play greedy, try not to gank losing lanes and help your winning lanes snowball
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I'm board now with nasus support and ashe support. what are the new TL secret op support picks?
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United States11393 Posts
Have you tried warwick support yet?
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EPT
