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On May 20 2016 18:06 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2016 16:56 MuddyJam wrote:On May 20 2016 16:49 Alaric wrote:On May 20 2016 11:00 Uldridge wrote:On May 20 2016 10:13 iCanada wrote:
I think LoL is a better game without Ryze. He is pretty much old Mordekeiser with CC and range. Either you poop on him real hard, kite him real hard, and finish the game early, or he wins. Every time. Isn't a binary outcome always what happens in a game of LoL? Are you in some kind of quantum-dimension where people can have 0,7 win and 0,3 loss after a game? How do you actually experience this polarity of a game with Ryze in it? Isn't it the same story with a Twitch on your or the enemy's team? What about Jinx? What about Azir? What about any other hyperscaling champion in the game that needs to be locked down with cc before you can kill them decently? Actually Ryze is some kind of mage juggernaut (albeit less tanky) that should be treated as one instead of your generic burst/control mage. If he gets on a carry and can't be kited, he'll win the game for you. And he should, since he was able to get close to your carries. Thing is with his damage he can burst tanks down almost all the same, and with the very low CD on his ult and its MS buff he will catch people anyway, or if any of his teammates catch a carry he'll get on them (unless somebody choke-full with cc or an assassin dives him to keep him busy, and that'll usually just feed him a kill at that point in the game). And re:curves, it's not like Ryze's early game is bad. Even after they made Q a skillshot he still trucked melee champs from level 1 because E when people need to walk near the wave to last hit was dumb. Making W a skillshot isn't the solution though, you still need champs like him to deal with eg. Kalista or Lucian. Champions with short range MUST have the ability to burn through tanks or they will be terrible. He isn't hitting that adc vs good players if he can't. Same principle with cass, mord and azir. If they have longer range or a gap closure they get less continuous damage because they can snipe the backline. Deal non-negligible damage to tanks != burst through tanks Morde's supposed to burst because of Q anyway (his ult will hurt tanks too because it's a hell of a lot of %maxHP damage), while Azir is a "sustained pseudo-autoattack damage mage" who just burst squishies down (and had an AP ratio of his basic 6s cd combo that rivaled LB's, before actual sensible nerfs happened).
mord has huge sustain dps! your q is on a tiny cd late and any good mord builds nashors. Plus if the fight goes long you will get a ghost that has magic damage aa.
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I don't particularly care about Ryze. It's been shown again and again that only Faker knows how to make him truly scary by using his combo perfectly (which shouldn't be that hard) and playing him supersafe.
And even at MSI he couldn't chain root like he could at worlds.
The ROA changes might have made the mana conversion into health more problematic though, I can see that, so they might have to nerf his spell vamp a bit.
A lategame Azir is very hard to outplay by the way. Only if he majorly fucks up you'll be able to win it.
Azir >> Ryze lategame by far imo.
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On May 21 2016 00:12 Bladeorade wrote:
Yeah but you know whats going on when you see an angry smurf running at you.
Why do we call secondary accounts smurfs? How does that even make sense
Google says: smurf. noun. : The husband and wife were ''smurfs,'' a type of drug-money launderer. A husband-and-wife smurfing team will travel from bank to bank, posing as strangers. verb.
So I guess its just posing as someone other than yourself. TIL
A smurf is a small blue humanoid who uses the word smurf for every smurfing smurf under the smurf. They were created in the 50s(?) by a French cartoonist and the word was 100% made up.
Everything comes off of the cartoon essentially. Laundering money with sub 10k deposits was smurfing because of the many small deposits(also probably the easy cuss word translation of smurf being used for everything) Bashing noobs is smurfing because you intentionally get small (and because smurfs are infuriating)
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yea smurfing as a gaming term didn't originally mean alt account. it's just that all smurfs are alt accounts and not vice versa but idiots blended the two words together until alt accounts (or alts) stop being used as a term.
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I thought the term "smurf" comes from Warcraft II players that made alternative accounts called "smurf+something" and wrecked bad players.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On May 21 2016 00:12 Bladeorade wrote:
Yeah but you know whats going on when you see an angry smurf running at you.
Why do we call secondary accounts smurfs? How does that even make sense
Google says: smurf. noun. : The husband and wife were ''smurfs,'' a type of drug-money launderer. A husband-and-wife smurfing team will travel from bank to bank, posing as strangers. verb.
So I guess its just posing as someone other than yourself. TIL
You young whippersnappers.
Smurfing came about because two players at the top of the War2 ladder (Shlonglor, now at Blizzard, and his roommate Warp) were really good but couldn't find matches because people were dodging them. So they created new accounts: PapaSmurf and Smurfette and proceeded to stomp on noobs under those pseudonyms.
Hence "smurf" originally referred to extremely talented players who hid their identity so that they could find matches. That turned into creating alternate accounts to stomp on noobs. Now even my Bronze friend has a "smurf", for reasons that are baffling to me.
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On May 21 2016 01:08 Slusher wrote:
yea smurfing as a gaming term didn't originally mean alt account. it's just that all smurfs are alt accounts and not vice versa but idiots blended the two words together until alt accounts (or alts) stop being used as a term.
Kind of like "proc".
On May 21 2016 01:21 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2016 00:12 Bladeorade wrote:
Yeah but you know whats going on when you see an angry smurf running at you.
Why do we call secondary accounts smurfs? How does that even make sense
Google says: smurf. noun. : The husband and wife were ''smurfs,'' a type of drug-money launderer. A husband-and-wife smurfing team will travel from bank to bank, posing as strangers. verb.
So I guess its just posing as someone other than yourself. TIL You young whippersnappers. Smurfing came about because two players at the top of the War2 ladder (Shlonglor, now at Blizzard, and his roommate Warp) were really good but couldn't find matches because people were dodging them. So they created new accounts: PapaSmurf and Smurfette and proceeded to stomp on noobs under those pseudonyms. Hence "smurf" originally referred to extremely talented players who hid their identity so that they could find matches. That turned into creating alternate accounts to stomp on noobs. Now even my Bronze friend has a "smurf", for reasons that are baffling to me.
"Bro, you don't understand. I'm stuck in elo hell and if I level this account up I can get into Diamond."
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On May 20 2016 16:56 MuddyJam wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2016 16:49 Alaric wrote:On May 20 2016 11:00 Uldridge wrote:On May 20 2016 10:13 iCanada wrote:
I think LoL is a better game without Ryze. He is pretty much old Mordekeiser with CC and range. Either you poop on him real hard, kite him real hard, and finish the game early, or he wins. Every time. Isn't a binary outcome always what happens in a game of LoL? Are you in some kind of quantum-dimension where people can have 0,7 win and 0,3 loss after a game? How do you actually experience this polarity of a game with Ryze in it? Isn't it the same story with a Twitch on your or the enemy's team? What about Jinx? What about Azir? What about any other hyperscaling champion in the game that needs to be locked down with cc before you can kill them decently? Actually Ryze is some kind of mage juggernaut (albeit less tanky) that should be treated as one instead of your generic burst/control mage. If he gets on a carry and can't be kited, he'll win the game for you. And he should, since he was able to get close to your carries. Thing is with his damage he can burst tanks down almost all the same, and with the very low CD on his ult and its MS buff he will catch people anyway, or if any of his teammates catch a carry he'll get on them (unless somebody choke-full with cc or an assassin dives him to keep him busy, and that'll usually just feed him a kill at that point in the game). And re:curves, it's not like Ryze's early game is bad. Even after they made Q a skillshot he still trucked melee champs from level 1 because E when people need to walk near the wave to last hit was dumb. Making W a skillshot isn't the solution though, you still need champs like him to deal with eg. Kalista or Lucian. Champions with short range MUST have the ability to burn through tanks or they will be terrible. He isn't hitting that adc vs good players if he can't. Same principle with cass, mord and azir. If they have longer range or a gap closure they get less continuous damage because they can snipe the backline.
Literally no other champion in the game can burn through tanks with 2 defensive items itemized against their damage type the way Ryze can. There are literally 30 immobile mages with considerably less movespeed and CC than Ryze.
No other champion gets a Voidstaff worth of magic pen just for using their E. A Ryze with Voidstaff ignores literally 71% of your Magic Resist. Add 7% from masteries that is 78% magic pen. Add 15 MPen from Boots and 8 from runes So 78% Mpen + 23 Flat Mpen.
Consider full item tank scared of Ryze; has Randiuns (500 HP) Sunfire OR DMP (500 HP) SV (55 MR + 500 HP) BV (70 MR+300 HP), Mercs (25 MR), and one misc item.
Thats 2k base HP + 1800 HP from items. 53.5 base MR + 20 from runes / masteries, plus 150 from items. In total you have 3800 HP and 223.5 MR.
Similarly farmed Ryze has 600 AP, 3.2k Mana. Seraphs + RoA + VoidStaff + Frozen Heart + Sorc Shoes + GA. Full Ryze combo will get off WQEQWQEQW if well primed and prepped.So you're getting off 2 E's, 4 Q's, and 3 W's.
Ryze Q = 200 + 0.55(600) + 0.04(3200) = 658
Ryze W= 160 + 0.4(600) + ).025(3200) = 480
Ryze E = 2.5[100 + 0.2(600) + 0.01(3200)] = 630
So combo damage = 2(630) + 4(658) + 3(480) = 5332 before damage reduction.
Our tank friend has 223.5 MR, reduced by Percent pen to 49.17 [223.5*(1-0.78)]. Further reduced by flat pen to 26.17 MR.
So our damage multiplier is equal to 100/(100+26.17) = 0.7926
Our tank takes 5332 * 0.7926 = 4226 damage nearly instantly and dies.
That's not burning tanks, that is one shotting tanks. I know Ryze won't have the full E penetration for the whole fight, but he will before the second W is put into effect. There is also residual damage from else where (ie an ADC to consider).
(As an aside, if I was a Ryze player I'd build Abyssal. Jesus. The True Damage, or if player is not a tank with MR the damage amplification from having greater Flat pen then they have MR)
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On May 21 2016 02:41 iCanada wrote:
Literally no other champion in the game can burn through tanks with 2 defensive items itemized against their damage type the way Ryze can. There are literally 30 immobile mages with considerably less movespeed and CC than Ryze.
Tell me about their competitive strength please. I'm excited for these S6 Karthus VODs. Must be in one of the Russian leagues.
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You're right, those shit mages like Annie, Anivia, Cassiopiea, Lulu, Xerath, Zyra, Ziggs, Vel-Koz, Syndra, Zilean...
All terrible picks competitively and never have or never will be good.
As an aside, Karthus actually shits on a lot of things in lane, and with Protobelt is pretty scary late game and isn't flash dependant. Funny enough, I actually would have a fair bit of confidence picking Karthus into Ryze. Him and Azir, thats pretty much it though.
http://www.op.gg/champion/karthus/statistics/mid
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On May 21 2016 00:56 Slayer91 wrote:
basically play a mid laner and get morellos because riot doesn't give a lot of options for grevious wounds
Exactly. My biggest issue with Morello's is you need your target to be below 35% for it to proc whereas Executioner's Calling can be applied from 100% - If you cannot easily bring down Swain's hp low, fast, on an AP champion his caw-caw-caw will kick in and Morello's passive is sort of wasted since he can stay above the threshold for a fair bit of time.
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you can just ignite swain too?
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On May 21 2016 03:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
you can just ignite swain too?
3.5 minute cooldown.
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On May 21 2016 02:41 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2016 16:56 MuddyJam wrote:On May 20 2016 16:49 Alaric wrote:On May 20 2016 11:00 Uldridge wrote:On May 20 2016 10:13 iCanada wrote:
I think LoL is a better game without Ryze. He is pretty much old Mordekeiser with CC and range. Either you poop on him real hard, kite him real hard, and finish the game early, or he wins. Every time. Isn't a binary outcome always what happens in a game of LoL? Are you in some kind of quantum-dimension where people can have 0,7 win and 0,3 loss after a game? How do you actually experience this polarity of a game with Ryze in it? Isn't it the same story with a Twitch on your or the enemy's team? What about Jinx? What about Azir? What about any other hyperscaling champion in the game that needs to be locked down with cc before you can kill them decently? Actually Ryze is some kind of mage juggernaut (albeit less tanky) that should be treated as one instead of your generic burst/control mage. If he gets on a carry and can't be kited, he'll win the game for you. And he should, since he was able to get close to your carries. Thing is with his damage he can burst tanks down almost all the same, and with the very low CD on his ult and its MS buff he will catch people anyway, or if any of his teammates catch a carry he'll get on them (unless somebody choke-full with cc or an assassin dives him to keep him busy, and that'll usually just feed him a kill at that point in the game). And re:curves, it's not like Ryze's early game is bad. Even after they made Q a skillshot he still trucked melee champs from level 1 because E when people need to walk near the wave to last hit was dumb. Making W a skillshot isn't the solution though, you still need champs like him to deal with eg. Kalista or Lucian. Champions with short range MUST have the ability to burn through tanks or they will be terrible. He isn't hitting that adc vs good players if he can't. Same principle with cass, mord and azir. If they have longer range or a gap closure they get less continuous damage because they can snipe the backline. Literally no other champion in the game can burn through tanks with 2 defensive items itemized against their damage type the way Ryze can. There are literally 30 immobile mages with considerably less movespeed and CC than Ryze. No other champion gets a Voidstaff worth of magic pen just for using their E. A Ryze with Voidstaff ignores literally 71% of your Magic Resist. Add 7% from masteries that is 78% magic pen. Add 15 MPen from Boots and 8 from runes So 78% Mpen + 23 Flat Mpen. Consider full item tank scared of Ryze; has Randiuns (500 HP) Sunfire OR DMP (500 HP) SV (55 MR + 500 HP) BV (70 MR+300 HP), Mercs (25 MR), and one misc item. Thats 2k base HP + 1800 HP from items. 53.5 base MR + 20 from runes / masteries, plus 150 from items. In total you have 3800 HP and 223.5 MR. Similarly farmed Ryze has 600 AP, 3.2k Mana. Seraphs + RoA + VoidStaff + Frozen Heart + Sorc Shoes + GA. Full Ryze combo will get off WQEQWQEQW if well primed and prepped.So you're getting off 2 E's, 4 Q's, and 3 W's. Ryze Q = 200 + 0.55(600) + 0.04(3200) = 658 Ryze W= 160 + 0.4(600) + ).025(3200) = 480 Ryze E = 2.5[100 + 0.2(600) + 0.01(3200)] = 630 So combo damage = 2(630) + 4(658) + 3(480) = 5332 before damage reduction. Our tank friend has 223.5 MR, reduced by Percent pen to 49.17 [223.5*(1-0.78)]. Further reduced by flat pen to 26.17 MR. So our damage multiplier is equal to 100/(100+26.17) = 0.7926 Our tank takes 5332 * 0.7926 = 4226 damage nearly instantly and dies. That's not burning tanks, that is one shotting tanks. I know Ryze won't have the full E penetration for the whole fight, but he will before the second W is put into effect. There is also residual damage from else where (ie an ADC to consider). (As an aside, if I was a Ryze player I'd build Abyssal. Jesus. The True Damage, or if player is not a tank with MR the damage amplification from having greater Flat pen then they have MR)
The problem with your example is that it's based on % penetration stacking additivly.
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I mean as I said then the whole conversation started he's down 20 base damage on Q on pbe, which is easily 100+ per combo the way Ryze works, and his rank 3 ult is +1m
I mean iCanada is so tilted over Ryze he's managed to draw pushback despite everyone thinking Ryze is op. Personally I think the changes currently on the pbe are a pretty reasonable place to start, why weren't they in 6.10 when he's been op for a while? idk, but with hope they won't revert the current pbe iteration.
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On May 21 2016 03:27 NpG)Explosive wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2016 02:41 iCanada wrote:On May 20 2016 16:56 MuddyJam wrote:On May 20 2016 16:49 Alaric wrote:On May 20 2016 11:00 Uldridge wrote:On May 20 2016 10:13 iCanada wrote:
I think LoL is a better game without Ryze. He is pretty much old Mordekeiser with CC and range. Either you poop on him real hard, kite him real hard, and finish the game early, or he wins. Every time. Isn't a binary outcome always what happens in a game of LoL? Are you in some kind of quantum-dimension where people can have 0,7 win and 0,3 loss after a game? How do you actually experience this polarity of a game with Ryze in it? Isn't it the same story with a Twitch on your or the enemy's team? What about Jinx? What about Azir? What about any other hyperscaling champion in the game that needs to be locked down with cc before you can kill them decently? Actually Ryze is some kind of mage juggernaut (albeit less tanky) that should be treated as one instead of your generic burst/control mage. If he gets on a carry and can't be kited, he'll win the game for you. And he should, since he was able to get close to your carries. Thing is with his damage he can burst tanks down almost all the same, and with the very low CD on his ult and its MS buff he will catch people anyway, or if any of his teammates catch a carry he'll get on them (unless somebody choke-full with cc or an assassin dives him to keep him busy, and that'll usually just feed him a kill at that point in the game). And re:curves, it's not like Ryze's early game is bad. Even after they made Q a skillshot he still trucked melee champs from level 1 because E when people need to walk near the wave to last hit was dumb. Making W a skillshot isn't the solution though, you still need champs like him to deal with eg. Kalista or Lucian. Champions with short range MUST have the ability to burn through tanks or they will be terrible. He isn't hitting that adc vs good players if he can't. Same principle with cass, mord and azir. If they have longer range or a gap closure they get less continuous damage because they can snipe the backline. Literally no other champion in the game can burn through tanks with 2 defensive items itemized against their damage type the way Ryze can. There are literally 30 immobile mages with considerably less movespeed and CC than Ryze. No other champion gets a Voidstaff worth of magic pen just for using their E. A Ryze with Voidstaff ignores literally 71% of your Magic Resist. Add 7% from masteries that is 78% magic pen. Add 15 MPen from Boots and 8 from runes So 78% Mpen + 23 Flat Mpen. Consider full item tank scared of Ryze; has Randiuns (500 HP) Sunfire OR DMP (500 HP) SV (55 MR + 500 HP) BV (70 MR+300 HP), Mercs (25 MR), and one misc item. Thats 2k base HP + 1800 HP from items. 53.5 base MR + 20 from runes / masteries, plus 150 from items. In total you have 3800 HP and 223.5 MR. Similarly farmed Ryze has 600 AP, 3.2k Mana. Seraphs + RoA + VoidStaff + Frozen Heart + Sorc Shoes + GA. Full Ryze combo will get off WQEQWQEQW if well primed and prepped.So you're getting off 2 E's, 4 Q's, and 3 W's. Ryze Q = 200 + 0.55(600) + 0.04(3200) = 658 Ryze W= 160 + 0.4(600) + ).025(3200) = 480 Ryze E = 2.5[100 + 0.2(600) + 0.01(3200)] = 630 So combo damage = 2(630) + 4(658) + 3(480) = 5332 before damage reduction. Our tank friend has 223.5 MR, reduced by Percent pen to 49.17 [223.5*(1-0.78)]. Further reduced by flat pen to 26.17 MR. So our damage multiplier is equal to 100/(100+26.17) = 0.7926 Our tank takes 5332 * 0.7926 = 4226 damage nearly instantly and dies. That's not burning tanks, that is one shotting tanks. I know Ryze won't have the full E penetration for the whole fight, but he will before the second W is put into effect. There is also residual damage from else where (ie an ADC to consider). (As an aside, if I was a Ryze player I'd build Abyssal. Jesus. The True Damage, or if player is not a tank with MR the damage amplification from having greater Flat pen then they have MR) The problem with your example is that it's based on % penetration stacking additivly.
% pen does stack additively. But you are right, Voidstaff is percentage magic penetration and Ryze E is percentage magic resistance reduction. These are different things and have different calculation steps and is therefor multiplicative. My mistake there.
However, that still means our poor Tank only gets 1*(1-0.42)*(1-0.36) = 0.3712 times his normal MR.
So he is sitting at instead 82.9 MR, reduced to 59.2 MR. Damage Multiplier is now 0.6282. Our tank takes 3550 damage.
Not actually dead, but pretty much dead. One auto attack away (250 HP), and he has been rooted for the last 3 seconds.
On May 21 2016 03:32 Slusher wrote:
I mean as I said then the whole conversation started he's down 20 base damage on Q on pbe, which is easily 100+ per combo the way Ryze works, and his rank 3 ult is +1m
I mean iCanada is so tilted over Ryze he's managed to draw pushback despite everyone thinking Ryze is op. Personally I think the changes currently on the pbe are a pretty reasonable place to start, why weren't they in 6.10 when he's been op for a while? idk, but with hope they won't revert the current pbe iteration.
I mean... you've played against him right? You saw the calculation, 100 damage is nothing in that combo. He hits so hard.
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base damage nerfs aren't really aimed at late game, they are aimed at Ryze not taking over the game the moment he has tear+roa
I mean I get it, certain champions just tilt the shit out of people after they are allowed bullshit for a year+, like why the fuck is Azir still killing my pink wards from behind a wall?????
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On May 21 2016 02:59 iCanada wrote:You're right, those shit mages like Annie, Anivia, Cassiopiea, Lulu, Xerath, Zyra, Ziggs, Vel-Koz, Syndra, Zilean... All terrible picks competitively and never have or never will be good. As an aside, Karthus actually shits on a lot of things in lane, and with Protobelt is pretty scary late game and isn't flash dependant. Funny enough, I actually would have a fair bit of confidence picking Karthus into Ryze. Him and Azir, thats pretty much it though. http://www.op.gg/champion/karthus/statistics/mid
Those competitive Annie, Anivia, Xerath, Zyra, Ziggs, and Syndra picks I've been seeing!
Lulu/Zilean have more speed than Ryze by a lot, and also high utility. Cassio and Vel-Koz are your arguments. Both are counterpicks to Ryze/Azir respectively. Azir, IMO is more of a problem than Ryze. Not only his stupid ward killing, but his damage is too high for his mobility, range, and utility. Azir is like Caitlyn with silver bolts.
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Just for shits and giggles, LeBlanc (Largelley considered the biggest burst mage in the game, with the most 1shot potential) with 800 AP, Void Staff, and Abyssal:
2*(595+1.5[800])+245+0.6(800) = 4315 DMG with only 42% Magic pen and 48 flat pen. This is the big dick damage WEQRE->Wfade away combo.
Our same tank friend lives from this full balls to the wall LB combo with 1500 HP and LB is useless at this point and cannot spam skills at your ADC. She also only has like 1800 HP herself. Ryze on the other hand has 260 Armor, 140 MR, 3k HP, an 800 damage shield, and GA passive. LOL.
Anyway, I'm fine with Ryze' lategame looking like that, what gets me is he looks like that from 15 minutes on.
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Slightly unfair because leblanc can big dick damage a lot quicker than ryze but yea ryze is stupid
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EPT
