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On May 06 2016 00:02 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2016 21:00 iCanada wrote:On May 05 2016 20:51 AsnSensation wrote:
Damn I thought 3 out of 4 elemental dragons spawn per game and not that you the same one can spawn over and over. No wonder people complained about RNG xD Yeah its terror as fuck. Like 20% chance if you pick a certain comps first drake just decides the game. I think they should nerf all the buffs, then let the team pick which buff they want after killing dragon. Like have an item drop, or give a popup choice to whomever deals the killing blow. First dragon decides the game? To be clear, the old dragon was +6% AD/AP. The new dragon that you think "decides the game" is +8% AD/AP. The fact that elemental dragon bonuses stack is a separate issue - yeah, if you repeatedly give up dragons, sometimes you'll be facing +24% AD/AP after 3x dragon, and sometimes you'll be facing 45 bonus movement speed out of combat. But it's not like you don't know what dragon is spawning. Maybe, in the 1/64 chance where a third infernal dragon has spawned in a row, maybe you should actually contest this one. You're past the point of being able to blame your teamcomp. What kind of team are you constructing that is built around giving up three or more dragons in a row? Maybe those kinds of teams just shouldn't be played if you find the 1/64 risk of 24% AD/AP to be unacceptable.
What do you think your chances of winning are if you draft a poke comp and enemy team picks up 10% per 5 seconds Mana and HP regeneration? What if you on the poke comp get that?
That first drake could very well decide the game if it's a water drake. And its totally random!
Do you like having that in a competitive game?
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The point of the rng issue is that if you draft a team that is not designed to contest the first few dragons you're very reliant on the dragons being weak for the other team. Similarly the inverse is true. If you're an early contest team but get shit value then the enemy can stall and outscale.
Since there will almost always be a weak dragon for the a team and since there will almost always be a team that has better early contest than the other the game can often be decided by RNG rather than quality of play.
That is fundamentally bad for the game since people do not like outcomes to feel random. They want to feel in control.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On May 06 2016 07:35 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2016 00:02 GrandInquisitor wrote:On May 05 2016 21:00 iCanada wrote:On May 05 2016 20:51 AsnSensation wrote:
Damn I thought 3 out of 4 elemental dragons spawn per game and not that you the same one can spawn over and over. No wonder people complained about RNG xD Yeah its terror as fuck. Like 20% chance if you pick a certain comps first drake just decides the game. I think they should nerf all the buffs, then let the team pick which buff they want after killing dragon. Like have an item drop, or give a popup choice to whomever deals the killing blow. First dragon decides the game? To be clear, the old dragon was +6% AD/AP. The new dragon that you think "decides the game" is +8% AD/AP. The fact that elemental dragon bonuses stack is a separate issue - yeah, if you repeatedly give up dragons, sometimes you'll be facing +24% AD/AP after 3x dragon, and sometimes you'll be facing 45 bonus movement speed out of combat. But it's not like you don't know what dragon is spawning. Maybe, in the 1/64 chance where a third infernal dragon has spawned in a row, maybe you should actually contest this one. You're past the point of being able to blame your teamcomp. What kind of team are you constructing that is built around giving up three or more dragons in a row? Maybe those kinds of teams just shouldn't be played if you find the 1/64 risk of 24% AD/AP to be unacceptable. What do you think your chances of winning are if you draft a poke comp and enemy team picks up 10% per 5 seconds Mana and HP regeneration? What if you on the poke comp get that? That first drake could very well decide the game if it's a water drake. And its totally random! Do you like having that in a competitive game?
You draft a poke comp.
You load into the game.
"Oh this first dragon is going to have a massive impact on our teamcomp and would mean a great deal to us. Should we contest it?"
"Nah, let's just give it up and blame RNG."
I am vaguely sympathetic to your complaints of RNG if you draft a teamcomp that literally cannot fight for the first dragon. I am not sympathetic if your entire teamcomp falls apart because of Regen Dragon, you see that first dragon is Regen Dragon, and yet you decide not to contest it anyway. Like, bro, if you are going to "lose the game" because of what the first dragon is, maybe you should a) draft less shitty teamcomps, and b) actually fight for that damn dragon if losing it means you lose the game.
What you're really saying is, "It would be bad luck if we lost a teamfight and then gave up a really good dragon instead of an unimportant dragon". But it's not bad luck that lost you the teamfight. You knew which dragon was at stake, and you lost the teamfight because you played worse than the other team. It's like saying it's bad luck that you won a teamfight but Baron doesn't respawn for another minute, while the other team wins a teamfight and Baron spawns immediately. That's not bad luck, that's bad planning.
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Well it's more like "well we drafted a poke comp and the first dragon will really impact us but we have the option of contesting and likely losing and giving up kills or we can let it go and hope for things elsewhere".
Whether or not you can depend on making the trade is not something you should have to guess when drafting your team.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On May 06 2016 08:17 Goumindong wrote:
Well it's more like "well we drafted a poke comp and the first dragon will really impact us but we have the option of contesting and likely losing and giving up kills or we can let it go and hope for things elsewhere".
Whether or not you can depend on making the trade is not something you should have to guess when drafting your team.
See this is conflating the idea of "poke comp is really good with Water Dragon" and "scaling comp can't fight for Dragon 1".
I agree completely that it sucks to draft scaling comps and hope that the first dragons aren't important. But to be clear, I think that if you draft a team that isn't best-suited for contesting Dragon 1, and Dragon 1 turns out to be really really really important for both teams ("game deciding", as iCanada would claim), then maybe you should do something about it. I mean, your team still has wards, yes? And smite? Keep Dragon warded, don't give up kills bot lane, don't let the other jungler solo it, and look for a gank mid or bot that lets you take Dragon off of it. Or take Herald while they're at Dragon (now that everyone agrees it's OP even though no one still seems to care about contesting it).
There's no such thing as a teamcomp that literally absolutely cannot fight for the first dragon. They might be disadvantaged in a fair fight at the first dragon, but kind of the whole point of teamplay in League is to set up unfair fights. If that first dragon turns out to be really that important for your teamcomp, figure out a way to grab it despite your teamcomp, or at an absolute bare minimum, if the other team really commits to taking Dragon, your team can counter with Herald.
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On May 06 2016 08:10 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2016 07:35 iCanada wrote:On May 06 2016 00:02 GrandInquisitor wrote:On May 05 2016 21:00 iCanada wrote:On May 05 2016 20:51 AsnSensation wrote:
Damn I thought 3 out of 4 elemental dragons spawn per game and not that you the same one can spawn over and over. No wonder people complained about RNG xD Yeah its terror as fuck. Like 20% chance if you pick a certain comps first drake just decides the game. I think they should nerf all the buffs, then let the team pick which buff they want after killing dragon. Like have an item drop, or give a popup choice to whomever deals the killing blow. First dragon decides the game? To be clear, the old dragon was +6% AD/AP. The new dragon that you think "decides the game" is +8% AD/AP. The fact that elemental dragon bonuses stack is a separate issue - yeah, if you repeatedly give up dragons, sometimes you'll be facing +24% AD/AP after 3x dragon, and sometimes you'll be facing 45 bonus movement speed out of combat. But it's not like you don't know what dragon is spawning. Maybe, in the 1/64 chance where a third infernal dragon has spawned in a row, maybe you should actually contest this one. You're past the point of being able to blame your teamcomp. What kind of team are you constructing that is built around giving up three or more dragons in a row? Maybe those kinds of teams just shouldn't be played if you find the 1/64 risk of 24% AD/AP to be unacceptable. What do you think your chances of winning are if you draft a poke comp and enemy team picks up 10% per 5 seconds Mana and HP regeneration? What if you on the poke comp get that? That first drake could very well decide the game if it's a water drake. And its totally random! Do you like having that in a competitive game? You draft a poke comp. You load into the game. "Oh this first dragon is going to have a massive impact on our teamcomp and would mean a great deal to us. Should we contest it?" "Nah, let's just give it up and blame RNG." I am vaguely sympathetic to your complaints of RNG if you draft a teamcomp that literally cannot fight for the first dragon. I am not sympathetic if your entire teamcomp falls apart because of Regen Dragon, you see that first dragon is Regen Dragon, and yet you decide not to contest it anyway. Like, bro, if you are going to "lose the game" because of what the first dragon is, maybe you should a) draft less shitty teamcomps, and b) actually fight for that damn dragon if losing it means you lose the game. What you're really saying is, "It would be bad luck if we lost a teamfight and then gave up a really good dragon instead of an unimportant dragon". But it's not bad luck that lost you the teamfight. You knew which dragon was at stake, and you lost the teamfight because you played worse than the other team. It's like saying it's bad luck that you won a teamfight but Baron doesn't respawn for another minute, while the other team wins a teamfight and Baron spawns immediately. That's not bad luck, that's bad planning.
No, I'm saying it is bad luck that you HAVE to fight for that dragon and worry about that objective when there is an 80% chance you could have ignored it. Any poker player with those odds would draft a comp that largely isn't concerned about fighting for the first dragon.
It just creates things you can't or realistically shouldn't have to account for. Its a complete coin flip.
I'm not saying it is OP, imbalanced, blaming losses on it, or anything like that; I believe RNG spawn drake is real shit design for a competitive game.
On May 06 2016 08:21 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2016 08:17 Goumindong wrote:
Well it's more like "well we drafted a poke comp and the first dragon will really impact us but we have the option of contesting and likely losing and giving up kills or we can let it go and hope for things elsewhere".
Whether or not you can depend on making the trade is not something you should have to guess when drafting your team. See this is conflating the idea of "poke comp is really good with Water Dragon" and "scaling comp can't fight for Dragon 1". I agree completely that it sucks to draft scaling comps and hope that the first dragons aren't important. But to be clear, I think that if you draft a team that isn't best-suited for contesting Dragon 1, and Dragon 1 turns out to be really really really important for both teams ("game deciding", as iCanada would claim), then maybe you should do something about it. I mean, your team still has wards, yes? And smite? Keep Dragon warded, don't give up kills bot lane, don't let the other jungler solo it, and look for a gank mid or bot that lets you take Dragon off of it. Or take Herald while they're at Dragon (now that everyone agrees it's OP even though no one still seems to care about contesting it). There's no such thing as a teamcomp that literally absolutely cannot fight for the first dragon. They might be disadvantaged in a fair fight at the first dragon, but kind of the whole point of teamplay in League is to set up unfair fights. If that first dragon turns out to be really that important for your teamcomp, figure out a way to grab it despite your teamcomp, or at an absolute bare minimum, if the other team really commits to taking Dragon, your team can counter with Herald.
So you're saying its totally fine for a 25% chance, that neither team has any bearing over, to just completely and utterly change how a team must play at a macro level? You don't think that is stupid?
Its not about balance or anything like that, its about a game with a thousand skills having its tempo changed by something neither team creates or influences. It really could screw you quite hard if you are trying to have a slower tempo game. If you are that poke comp, there is a miniscule chance that you can't properly lane swap the way you wanted to because you need to have your duo lane at the strong drake side. Suddenly you are stuck in 2v2 & 1v1 situations. This could make you draft a weaker comp overall to ensure you don't get dumpstered in a lane swap you might not have to worry about, or make you just lose because you have a shit 2v2 that you never would have needed to take in the first place.
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The thing is, a water dragon is a monstrous amount of regen. For a modest 300 missing mana, that's ~8.3 mp5, an extra spell every 10 second.
Fire is strong, but not quite as much. Being one fire down is bad, but a second will snowball the game pretty fucking hard if you fail.
At the same time, the other two are decidedly mediocre. Lost a game where we had 3 air and one earth dragon(granted throws were involved). Yay we move fast and kill objectives slightly faster. Whoop-de-fucking-doo when you can't win fights. If that was some combination of fire/water, you fucking steamroll the enemy team.
Water - Must fight for it. Losing it puts you at a huge disadvantage.
Fire - Bad to lose it. You won't lose immediately, but it makes subsequent fights that much harder.
Air - No combat stats, be a bit more careful with warding and you're fine.
Earth - lol
I'd like to see Air movement speed decay over 5 seconds once in combat, and slightly buffed. Earth should also give 10-15% reduced damage from turrets/large monsters.
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Edit: to be clear this is in response to grandinquisitor
Sure but that position is dumb. Of course you can compensate. you can compensate for anything. The dragon situation is no different than if one of the teams randomly started with 100 more gold apiece. "Lol just compensate" isn't a reasonable answer to that.
Shit it wasn't a reasonable response to "blue side has a notable advantage" let alone this where you don't know whether or not you will have an advantage or disadvantage before drafting.
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On May 06 2016 03:48 Zess wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2016 00:59 Slayer91 wrote:btw I played against a draven top yesterday was pretty fucking cancer couldn't farm at all until my jungler camped for me zz LOL ever since i told VA euros play mostly tank tops ive been playing vs the weirdest shit had a teemo as well yesterday and i went full john wick that game I hate fucking teemo + Show Spoiler [game vod] +maybe if you can somehow stop him catching axes you can do something but doesnt seem that easy. How's the Stormraiders Garen experiment going?
getting it every game, I abuse it without noticing it if that makes sense.
Like either you kill someone and run away or kill someone and keep chasing
or you chunk someone same thing.
You don't notice it because it feels just like getting another Q, but it saves your life a hell of a lot and gets you some extra kills too.
On May 06 2016 04:18 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2016 00:59 Slayer91 wrote:btw I played against a draven top yesterday was pretty fucking cancer couldn't farm at all until my jungler camped for me zz LOL ever since i told VA euros play mostly tank tops ive been playing vs the weirdest shit had a teemo as well yesterday and i went full john wick that game I hate fucking teemo + Show Spoiler [game vod] +maybe if you can somehow stop him catching axes you can do something but doesnt seem that easy. Damn, your early laning gave me almost as much cancer as your chat position. oh and you miss the cannon as well, rip Stormraiders seemed situationally very good that game, but sometimes you could also really notice the lack of extra damage other masteries would bring. I'll try it out for a couple games as well I think.
lack of damage from thunderlords maybe, but you don't get it scaling much on garen except just from levels. Grasp is good in lane against other melees but later on you don't get that much use out of it.
Thunderlords and ignite garen would be some sick burst though.
lol wk are you really criticising missing the cannon because I was getting a kill? LOL
edit: nvm you mean later yea it was a toss up between using Q to get it or saving it for other cs
tower does stupid damage to cannons its never the right multiple to last hit zz
On May 06 2016 04:22 VayneAuthority wrote:
is bond of stone viable for garen against kite/ranged teams where you know all your gonna be is a meatshield and never do damage? say your laning against like quinn or teemo top or something
not worth if you can avoid it, the 300 hp is much better for EHP and the bond of stone absorption isn't enough to compensate. Teemo isn't that bad from my experience, quinn sucks but you can usually farm if you don't let her get that harrier shit on you.
that said, farming the 300 hp is generally fairly difficult so maybe its okay. You can still abuse stormraiders with flash+QE R plays or even just flash+R plays if you are that behind.
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On May 06 2016 08:21 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2016 08:17 Goumindong wrote:
Well it's more like "well we drafted a poke comp and the first dragon will really impact us but we have the option of contesting and likely losing and giving up kills or we can let it go and hope for things elsewhere".
Whether or not you can depend on making the trade is not something you should have to guess when drafting your team. See this is conflating the idea of "poke comp is really good with Water Dragon" and "scaling comp can't fight for Dragon 1". I agree completely that it sucks to draft scaling comps and hope that the first dragons aren't important. But to be clear, I think that if you draft a team that isn't best-suited for contesting Dragon 1, and Dragon 1 turns out to be really really really important for both teams ("game deciding", as iCanada would claim), then maybe you should do something about it. I mean, your team still has wards, yes? And smite? Keep Dragon warded, don't give up kills bot lane, don't let the other jungler solo it, and look for a gank mid or bot that lets you take Dragon off of it. Or take Herald while they're at Dragon (now that everyone agrees it's OP even though no one still seems to care about contesting it). There's no such thing as a teamcomp that literally absolutely cannot fight for the first dragon. They might be disadvantaged in a fair fight at the first dragon, but kind of the whole point of teamplay in League is to set up unfair fights. If that first dragon turns out to be really that important for your teamcomp, figure out a way to grab it despite your teamcomp, or at an absolute bare minimum, if the other team really commits to taking Dragon, your team can counter with Herald.
I get what you're saying here but honestly, it's not like that pressure is going to go away until someone kills it. Any time you slip up and they force an objective you're down the hole. Not to mention that some comps just cannot fight dragon early. Rip Vayne, Fiora or any scaling champ that has an atrocious early. Rip any jungler who can't contest that objective in a 3v3 or what have you. And once again it's completely random, so you might set up for dragon control in your draft and not get a single dragon that helps your win condition, and lose for it (not that I don't think that good comp will be drag oriented now). Or that early drags have a higher priority than probably Baron relatively.
And all of that is not to mention that Water Dragon is broken. Its an AoE Soraka ult every 10 seconds that scales w/ your bonus HP. It massively buffs champions with Waveclear again because relievinv pressure without fighting safely now means free heals. Tanky champions benefit disproportionately and health stacking is definitely a thing of you have it. It's insane. Shit like this buff guarantees that you lose an objective, or that someone slinking off a teamfight will reenter it.
At this point I can understand where they were going but I'd much prefer a system in which Dragon if spawned sits as a specific type for x mins or one contest, and is much tankier. Can't kill it? It leaves and another dragon will spawn in 30 seconds guaranteed to not be that buff. Now dragon in this scenario is tenuous and important. Setup and teamfight for it if you want it's buff. Contest them at dragon if you don't want them to have the buff and it's not crucial for you to do so.
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On May 06 2016 09:40 Purge wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2016 08:21 GrandInquisitor wrote:On May 06 2016 08:17 Goumindong wrote:
Well it's more like "well we drafted a poke comp and the first dragon will really impact us but we have the option of contesting and likely losing and giving up kills or we can let it go and hope for things elsewhere".
Whether or not you can depend on making the trade is not something you should have to guess when drafting your team. See this is conflating the idea of "poke comp is really good with Water Dragon" and "scaling comp can't fight for Dragon 1". I agree completely that it sucks to draft scaling comps and hope that the first dragons aren't important. But to be clear, I think that if you draft a team that isn't best-suited for contesting Dragon 1, and Dragon 1 turns out to be really really really important for both teams ("game deciding", as iCanada would claim), then maybe you should do something about it. I mean, your team still has wards, yes? And smite? Keep Dragon warded, don't give up kills bot lane, don't let the other jungler solo it, and look for a gank mid or bot that lets you take Dragon off of it. Or take Herald while they're at Dragon (now that everyone agrees it's OP even though no one still seems to care about contesting it). There's no such thing as a teamcomp that literally absolutely cannot fight for the first dragon. They might be disadvantaged in a fair fight at the first dragon, but kind of the whole point of teamplay in League is to set up unfair fights. If that first dragon turns out to be really that important for your teamcomp, figure out a way to grab it despite your teamcomp, or at an absolute bare minimum, if the other team really commits to taking Dragon, your team can counter with Herald. I get what you're saying here but honestly, it's not like that pressure is going to go away until someone kills it. Any time you slip up and they force an objective you're down the hole. Not to mention that some comps just cannot fight dragon early. Rip Vayne, Fiora or any scaling champ that has an atrocious early. Rip any jungler who can't contest that objective in a 3v3 or what have you. And once again it's completely random, so you might set up for dragon control in your draft and not get a single dragon that helps your win condition, and lose for it (not that I don't think that good comp will be drag oriented now). Or that early drags have a higher priority than probably Baron relatively. And all of that is not to mention that Water Dragon is broken. Its an AoE Soraka ult every 10 seconds that scales w/ your bonus HP. It massively buffs champions with Waveclear again because relievinv pressure without fighting safely now means free heals. Tanky champions benefit disproportionately and health stacking is definitely a thing of you have it. It's insane. Shit like this buff guarantees that you lose an objective, or that someone slinking off a teamfight will reenter it. At this point I can understand where they were going but I'd much prefer a system in which Dragon if spawned sits as a specific type for x mins or one contest, and is much tankier. Can't kill it? It leaves and another dragon will spawn in 30 seconds guaranteed to not be that buff. Now dragon in this scenario is tenuous and important. Setup and teamfight for it if you want it's buff. Contest them at dragon if you don't want them to have the buff and it's not crucial for you to do so.
I'd like that more, I still think it'd be pretty RNG heavy though.
Imo, if this is the way they must do it, you give the guy who last hits the dragon the choice between all 4, and balance accordingly. Probably means you nerf them all to compensate, but then it is a strong objective and you aren't leaving something so important to dice.
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On May 06 2016 03:07 Slayer91 wrote:
everything is broken if you want to make excuses for losing
This makes no sense, they made a huge change to the game. There is a pretty good chance there are some things that are far stronger than they should be, or that are not fun to play against because they need tuning.
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there are things that are far stronger than they should be every patch.
Did you realise how disgusting kindred was last patch? Master yi?
There's always shit thats op and normally they'll get banned or on your team about half the time so it doesn't really matter.
As for things that aren't fun to play against, there are plenty in every patch and most of them don't need tuning. Any time you lose lane hard it's not fun to play against but that's the game.
I don't find teemo fun to play against win or lose but it doesn't stop me playing
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I don't think its necessarily the "omg we must contest for this dragon" situation that is so bad (although it is because a lot of comps are item timing comps) the bad part is that champions will inevitably have to be balanced based on an assumption of X # of each type of dragon they are presumed to have, and thus can get screwed over really hard randomly because of that type of dragon not spawning. This is like basically every gimmick in LOL in that it hurts champ diversity, it would be better if the ways to scale were gold and exp only.
Also the level of mobility in this game can't support 2 good objectives, particularly earlygame. Rift Herald being meaningful (especially a 20 minute free win for certain toplaners) is the opposite of what they should have done.
Lastly GI there is one thing that totally invalidates your "you better know to contest this early buff" mindset: Smite stealing. Now, smite stealing is already a bad mechanic, but if winning/losing a buff basically invalidates entire comps at the 15 minute mark, then it is absolutely unacceptable.
I love the idea of strong dragon earlygame value to encourage actual fighting as opposed to laneswaps and non-interactive pushing, I just don't like that, in reality half the dragons are kind of crappy, and half are pretty strong (one being situationally OP), and I don't think it provides for a good competitive game for me to watch (which is what I think they should direct balance on this point towards).
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the point is if you start blaming things being broken for your loss you won't have any fun because there's nothing you can do about something being broken
the most broken shit gets a 55-60% winrate on say junglers who can snowball hard, and there's a lot you can do to stpo that happening as well if you're aware.
yes it still means they are broken but you just have to play 10-20% better to win. (assuming you win 50% normally)
once in solo q i just kept telling the team not to keep kindred 0/0/0 and being like
"dont worry kindred still 0/0/0 we win soon boys" if someone died in lane or somthin
actually workd she didnt get an assist until like 11 mins and then she was just mediocre easy game LOL
fun in game is mostly decided by you and how well you're playing or what champs you're playing it's rarely that different from patch to patch
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I think you stretched what I asked out about as far as you can
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This puts Swain up to -75 (-.2ap) damage for a full combo (not counting ult but ult is unchanged to 3=< targets) if they get rooted inside of your Q compared to pre-update. He should be stronger until level 13 just because he can push now and because he has damage full damage amp to his autos lvl1. But I mean that was already his power curve so I'm not sure what the point of including him in the update is.
if the w change isn't reverted then none of this matters imo, but I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt(hoping) since it was stealth nerfed, maybe it's being stealth buffed.
Edit: nvm, I'm an idiot, the buff is per tic, he should be pretty strong after the hot fix actually, also I was wrong about the typo, his E is 1.0 ratio (as listed on the patch notes) I just thought it was a typo because it was 1.0 for old swain, so I guess in a way it's still a typo (listing something as being buffed compared to a pbe only version of the skill). This puts his full combo potential at -.1 ap, but with a fairly decent buff to early game damage if you can root them, since they just gutted one of his skills and moved all the power elsewhere.
in any case, I think he should be pretty decent now, the extra range on q for it being a skillshot is prob worth in the end.
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Out of the reworked mages who are the main ones that need nerfs soon? Aside from Malzahar
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EPT
