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On May 04 2016 05:43 Slayer91 wrote:
I think you're wildly overestimating razer.
Where is your math coming from? How many people have more than 1k-1.5k hp around the 15-20 min mark when people get close to 30 stacks? Its only 30-45 physical damage and most people have more armour than mr.
Not sure where the factor of 2 or 3 is coming from.
Remember shyvana doesn't care about AP and rageblade needs a full 6 autos to reach sated status (whens the last time you got 6 autos continuously on shyv? lol)
so yea she won't be hit THAT badly but she she'll definitely be weaker because she uses sated really well with botrk and her E %hp damage both physical and magic.
she wasn't strong in the first place and nobody shared jungle xp much in solo q anyway.
I dunno if I'd say she wasn't strong. She has the 7th highest winrate from the jungle in the game, the highest in games that end between 25 and 30 minutes. Again, all in Korea Diamond+. Consider the average pro game ends in 32 minutes. In this range (30 to 35 minutes) she has the 3rd highest winrate. She also shits on all common junglers (Lee, Elise, Graves, Graggy, Kindred) except Kindred, who is perma banned. Nid and Voli only have slight winrate advantages on her too.
Do you only get sated proc after 6 hits? I havn't seen how they are changing it. Maybe it is less than ideal to build Rageblade then.
To be fair though, Shyv Q would get you 2 stacks, so one auto essentially gets you 3 stacks. If Q is level 5, that means you get rageblade prac in 2 autos. I dont think getting 2 auto Q's off in a fight is that outrageous. But fight is probably over after that, so you're right it is less than ideal to build it if that is the case.
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well if you pick tank vs tank with no pick advantage thats the equivalent of 2 mages mid lane who both just insta clear the wave from tower
if theres some mix it up like graves or quinn vs tank or irelia/jax vs tank or somthing theres more room for both sides to win.
On May 04 2016 06:06 iCanada wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 05:43 Slayer91 wrote:
I think you're wildly overestimating razer.
Where is your math coming from? How many people have more than 1k-1.5k hp around the 15-20 min mark when people get close to 30 stacks? Its only 30-45 physical damage and most people have more armour than mr.
Not sure where the factor of 2 or 3 is coming from.
Remember shyvana doesn't care about AP and rageblade needs a full 6 autos to reach sated status (whens the last time you got 6 autos continuously on shyv? lol)
so yea she won't be hit THAT badly but she she'll definitely be weaker because she uses sated really well with botrk and her E %hp damage both physical and magic.
she wasn't strong in the first place and nobody shared jungle xp much in solo q anyway. I dunno if I'd say she wasn't strong. She has the 7th highest winrate from the jungle in the game, the highest in games that end between 25 and 30 minutes. Again, all in Korea Diamond+. Consider the average pro game ends in 32 minutes. In this range (30 to 35 minutes) she has the 3rd highest winrate. She also shits on all common junglers (Lee, Elise, Graves, Graggy, Kindred) except Kindred, who is perma banned. Nid and Voli only have slight winrate advantages on her too. Do you only get sated proc after 6 hits? I havn't seen how they are changing it. Maybe it is less than ideal to build Rageblade then. To be fair though, Shyv Q would get you 2 stacks, so one auto essentially gets you 3 stacks. If Q is level 5, that means you get rageblade prac in 2 autos. I dont think getting 2 auto Q's off in a fight is that outrageous. But fight is probably over after that, so you're right it is less than ideal to build it if that is the case.
they made it so rageblade procs once a hit or at least I read that from a riot post before.
shyvana's strength right now is abusing the sated/botrk synergy quite a bit
lacks CC so you almost never see her in pro play because she'll never get any kills because she can't gank and she can't catch people in teamfights.
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well at least those games make a lot of sense in context. Garen is obviously going to dumpster 2 mages that rely on casting a lot of spells and went full glass cannon builds.
Irelia is going to destroy quinn/katarina if she ever gets remotely ahead.
I was just curious, makes plenty of sense if people play super assassins top.
I just don't see anything in NA except mao, naut, trundle, ryze, etc so i was curious how people are dying so much.
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Well ye you pick tanks cuz you don't do anything and outscale dumb shit like irelia unless you feed like a monkey that is the whole point
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Shyv Q is coded as 2 auto attacks though. It even does 2 ward damage. Phantom hits don't do 2 ward damage, never have.
I think Shyvana would be successful in proplay if they picked the right comp, but I agree her lack of CC hurts her at the top level. Rito pls bring BKB to LoL.
Sated also synergizes with her E real hard.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
Is there any champ in the game hurt more by Exhaust than Shyvana? Maybe Zed? I feel like a coordinated team against Shyvana could just play around their Exhaust summoner spell cooldowns and render her totally useless.
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On May 04 2016 06:16 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Is there any champ in the game hurt more by Exhaust than Shyvana? Maybe Zed? I feel like a coordinated team against Shyvana could just play around their Exhaust summoner spell cooldowns and render her totally useless.
Every single assassin in the game?
Also irelia/jax/trynd and all the other non tank melees?
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have killed all those champs in recentish games in lane though
actually I didn't kill ryze, he was dynamic Qing with a jungler (same tag) and he came to my lane so often best I could do was kill their jungler 1v2 and die minimally, we won eventually though.
coulda one shot ryze a lot of times if he wasn't blessed with permanent jungle presence
The point is you can kill most of those tanks if you get a rageblade or zone them from creeps or hard push and jungle or roam
in fact you can kill trundle level 4 because fervour and lvl 2 W is op keke..
you can't do that sort of abuse with a sheen+phage and cowl or something and I'm looking for an alternative maybe there isn't a viable one.
On May 04 2016 06:16 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Is there any champ in the game hurt more by Exhaust than Shyvana? Maybe Zed? I feel like a coordinated team against Shyvana could just play around their Exhaust summoner spell cooldowns and render her totally useless.
once you get tanky on shyvana your relatively low cds and botrk allow you to do pretty consistent damage and exhaust isn't a massive issue.
as mentioned above squishier burst champs have much more trouble dealing with it.
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On May 04 2016 06:16 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Is there any champ in the game hurt more by Exhaust than Shyvana? Maybe Zed? I feel like a coordinated team against Shyvana could just play around their Exhaust summoner spell cooldowns and render her totally useless.
Actually, even with Sated Devourer and all her physical shred with E and BtoRK, like 60% of her damage is magic from her W.
Shyv W in Drake from is like Rumble ult that deals 50% damage over a bigger area.
That and she is hella tanky anyway, usually is paving the way for a carry to clean. I think Shyv doesn't really care about exhaust.
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On May 04 2016 06:17 Slayer91 wrote:
have killed all those champs in recentish games in lane though
actually I didn't kill ryze, he was dynamic Qing with a jungler (same tag) and he came to my lane so often best I could do was kill their jungler 1v2 and die minimally, we won eventually though.
coulda one shot ryze a lot of times if he wasn't blessed with permanent jungle presence
The point is you can kill most of those tanks if you get a rageblade or zone them from creeps or hard push and jungle or roam
in fact you can kill trundle level 4 because fervour and lvl 2 W is op keke..
you can't do that sort of abuse with a sheen+phage and cowl or something and I'm looking for an alternative maybe there isn't a viable one.
you would die if you tried that on me, i take fervor on trundle lol
most idiots still taking grasp though
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Shyv W 2x proccing relies in sticking to target and walking over them, can be difficult at least for me since I suck at shyvana and against teams with heavy CC in general.
Shyvana really isn't that tanky naturally, she gets some bonus resists (WAY less than jax) but she gets "tanky" just from having a massive gold+XP lead, if you didn't have that lead you'd see if you're getting sated+botrk finished at 25 minutes and the game ends at 30-35 you're playing most of the game with 1500 hp.
On May 04 2016 06:19 VayneAuthority wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 06:17 Slayer91 wrote:
have killed all those champs in recentish games in lane though
actually I didn't kill ryze, he was dynamic Qing with a jungler (same tag) and he came to my lane so often best I could do was kill their jungler 1v2 and die minimally, we won eventually though.
coulda one shot ryze a lot of times if he wasn't blessed with permanent jungle presence
The point is you can kill most of those tanks if you get a rageblade or zone them from creeps or hard push and jungle or roam
in fact you can kill trundle level 4 because fervour and lvl 2 W is op keke..
you can't do that sort of abuse with a sheen+phage and cowl or something and I'm looking for an alternative maybe there isn't a viable one.
you would die if you tried that on me, i take fervor on trundle lol most idiots still taking grasp though
unlucky
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shyvana sucks lets just stop talking about her, complete garbo even on this patch ever since she got gutted
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well yea 5 of the top 10 junglers get devourer and are now garbage it's a bit unreasonable to assume everyone can just drop them instantly.
except kindred might still be good but the double item+champ nerf might help and nobody will miss her
NOBODY
no nerfs to amumu and volibear get in boys
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On May 04 2016 06:19 Slayer91 wrote:Shyv W 2x proccing relies in sticking to target and walking over them, can be difficult at least for me since I suck at shyvana and against teams with heavy CC in general. Shyvana really isn't that tanky naturally, she gets some bonus resists (WAY less than jax) but she gets "tanky" just from having a massive gold+XP lead, if you didn't have that lead you'd see if you're getting sated+botrk finished at 25 minutes and the game ends at 30-35 you're playing most of the game with 1500 hp. Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 06:19 VayneAuthority wrote:On May 04 2016 06:17 Slayer91 wrote:
have killed all those champs in recentish games in lane though
actually I didn't kill ryze, he was dynamic Qing with a jungler (same tag) and he came to my lane so often best I could do was kill their jungler 1v2 and die minimally, we won eventually though.
coulda one shot ryze a lot of times if he wasn't blessed with permanent jungle presence
The point is you can kill most of those tanks if you get a rageblade or zone them from creeps or hard push and jungle or roam
in fact you can kill trundle level 4 because fervour and lvl 2 W is op keke..
you can't do that sort of abuse with a sheen+phage and cowl or something and I'm looking for an alternative maybe there isn't a viable one.
you would die if you tried that on me, i take fervor on trundle lol most idiots still taking grasp though unlucky
I think most players get a tank item before BtoRK, and you're discounting the 300 HP from SoA.
That said, you're right that most of her "tankiness" is from being a solid 15 to 20% GPM and XPPM ahead of most champions just on average. Her lategame has always been pretty shit.
On May 04 2016 06:26 Slayer91 wrote:
well yea 5 of the top 10 junglers get devourer and are now garbage it's a bit unreasonable to assume everyone can just drop them instantly.
except kindred might still be good but the double item+champ nerf might help and nobody will miss her
NOBODY
no nerfs to amumu and volibear get in boys
Add Skarner to that list. His winrate has been quite high the last few patches. Just a smidge behind Voli and ahead of Mummy in most regions.
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gragas literally god tier now, i think he was the only top tier jg not touched? actually he was buffed if you go cinderhulk route zz, fucking gragas.
shaco is really strong too if you're good at him atm
khazix/wukong do pretty well too
volibear is aight against certain teams, amumu seems to weak to play in fast paced games, im guessing his high wirnate comes more from plat/low diamond cause hes trash past that
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I'm not discounting the 300hp ,if you didn't have it you'd be total paper, like 1200 hp.
I'd probably get giants belt before BoTRK, you have some bonus resists and +680 hp from soa/belt is an okay health base
On May 04 2016 06:30 VayneAuthority wrote:
gragas literally god tier now, i think he was the only top tier jg not touched? actually he was buffed if you go cinderhulk route zz, fucking gragas.
shaco is really strong too if you're good at him atm
khazix/wukong do pretty well too
volibear is aight against certain teams, amumu seems to weak to play in fast paced games, im guessing his high wirnate comes more from plat/low diamond cause hes trash past that
I like amumu as Q maxed and max CDR, you have pretty a long ass range cc+nuke on a 4.8s CD.
not sure if its viable but I think the W max second sunfire abyssal stuff is garbage against most comps but I could be wrong haven't tried it much.
shaco is underrated because everyone is used to him being useless if he didnt get 5 kills in 8 minutes. His R and lack of oracles make him really annoying to deal with. Same thing with kha/wukong.
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Not Giants belt, Bamis Cinder.
Although, they did just nerf Cinder this patch. I typically got Cinder+boots before BotRK atleast. Not sure what most people did. Belt prolly better now.
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They went through with these nerfs on Viktor's E (let's not kid ourselves, he won't hit anyone with the second part without external cc involved), and his ult on a 2s tickrate without any changes to how bad its "pet" control performs... RIP.
Loses even harder to anything remotely mobile (used to die while dealing some damage, now he'll die for free), and made a waveclear bot since they didn't change E's manacost but hit the damage super hard so poking isn't doing much forr the cost.
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On May 04 2016 06:32 iCanada wrote:
Not Giants belt, Bamis Cinder.
Although, they did just nerf Cinder this patch. I typically got Cinder+boots before BotRK atleast. Not sure what most people did. Belt prolly better now.
bamis cinder doesn't make much sense, you do so much AoE magic damage AND sustained damage that getting another 5 damage is second is absolutely nothing compared to getting more defensive power or sticking power.
seriously sated shyv melts anything in range in about 2 seconds getting 10 more more damage a second is just moronic. It's not a hugely noticeable difference to lose the 80 hp and weaker build path but logically how did you ever come to that conclusion.
like finishing deadmans faster is so much more important.
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Yeah dude, Viktor got cleaved.
He already had a trash win rate til hella late too.
On May 04 2016 06:33 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2016 06:32 iCanada wrote:
Not Giants belt, Bamis Cinder.
Although, they did just nerf Cinder this patch. I typically got Cinder+boots before BotRK atleast. Not sure what most people did. Belt prolly better now. bamis cinder doesn't make much sense, you do so much AoE magic damage getting another 5 damage is second is absolutely nothing compared to getting more defensive power or sticking power. like finishing deadmans faster is so much more important.
Huh. That makes a lot of sense.
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EPT
