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On April 08 2016 08:19 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 07:59 Frolossus wrote:On April 08 2016 07:52 Goumindong wrote:On April 07 2016 23:52 GrandInquisitor wrote:
Sure. But MMR inflation due to the indeterminately small fraction of 5's not playing vs 5's is whatever, man. It ultimately has less of an effect on MMR than an AFK or someone getting their champ pool randomly banned out. It's just noise that will get lost in the signal. No that is not the way that mmr works. AFKs get lost in the signal because the effect on your games is random. You win just as much as you lose. If that wasn't the case then your MMR would increase or decrease to reflect your difference in afk rate. The MMR difference that results from this is the same size regardless of the % of games that are played between 5s and non 5s (unless, again, that % is zero). It would be the same if all of the 5s games were played against soloqueuers or .5%. The only difference is how fast the mmr difference converges to that number. Which depends on the overall number of games played and not individual. (Individual team games played against other teams determines how fast you converge towards the team mmr advantage though) assuming that you never AFK. there will always be more AFK people on the enemy team Yup (to the more likely version so the spirit of the quote) and if you never afk or disco you would have a lower than average leave rate and so will increase in MMR in accordance to the advantage that confers. But you're probably underestimating your leave rate. Leaves are a high variance occurrence and small leave rates still produce highish overall games with leavers. Which makes it hard to evaluate your leave rate compared to the average. E.G. Suppose that the average leave rate is 1/100 games. Cause doesn't matter. In games you don't leave you would expect at least one leave on either team about 8.7% of the time. Which you would notice. But your 1/100 might not even be on your radar.
I think I've left games (as in been dc'd for more than 5 minutes) about twice in the last 2 years.
i've played at least 50-60 4v5's, probably way more. It was a common enough occurrence in plat1/d5 mmr that i wasn't surprised to have at least 10% of my games be decided by which team had the afk, probably more.
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So according to a reddit thread, Riot fucked up and Zed's AD multiplier on rank 5 W is 200% instead of 20%.
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Is it just me or is Nauts hook hardcore bugged right now? I swear it is going about 30-40% further than normal.
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On April 08 2016 10:15 Gahlo wrote:
So according to a reddit thread, Riot fucked up and Zed's AD multiplier on rank 5 W is 200% instead of 20%.
Yet Zed isn't disabled?
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The only reason they didn't lie is because the people interested in soloQ didn't buy it.
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On April 09 2016 01:02 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2016 10:15 Gahlo wrote:
So according to a reddit thread, Riot fucked up and Zed's AD multiplier on rank 5 W is 200% instead of 20%. Yet Zed isn't disabled?
Zed has been banned in every normal I've played for the last week. Maybe nobody noticed since he's always banned....
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I'm not sure why the average Reddit user is so on the anti dynamic q hype train, but the fact that they are and Riot isn't scared is very interesting to me. I don't mean that sarcastic in any way, it actually just makes me genuinely curious.
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Riot isn't tapping into that demographic at all. Taking a hit in their numbers regarding that population is expected, and they weren't necessarily the biggest spenders anyway.
Plus, Riot wants retention at this point, to keep milking the player base, so the players who will leave don't interest them as much as the ones they can keep here.
It doesn't matter that 3 people spending a moderate amount leave, if the 7 friends they broought to the game keep bringing their own friends even after the changes, and are in fact more likely to do so, which each of them individually spending more.
The average LoL player doesn't read the patch notes nor watches the champion spotlights, let alone go to websites such as reddit or TL.
In terms of demography and what's expected of the player base, picture LoL closer to candy crush than reddit, basically.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On April 09 2016 02:37 Slusher wrote:
I'm not sure why the average Reddit user is so on the anti dynamic q hype train, but the fact that they are and Riot isn't scared is very interesting to me. I don't mean that sarcastic in any way, it actually just makes me genuinely curious.
I wouldn't say they are "scared", but I do think they don't really know what to do here. People have decided that dynamic queue sucks, and at this point the groupthink is so strong that people are unlikely to change their minds (especially when anyone can blame their ranked woes on dynamic queue and get sympathy instead of derision). At the same time, Riot also knows that releasing solo queue is going to significantly increase queue times and make matchmaking worse, while also hurting their efforts to make League a more friend-focused game.
My guess is that they hoped that this would all blow over so that when they officially terminated solo queue, it would be like the general attitude towards Dominion: whatever, good riddance. Instead it's become calcified and a little bit ridiculously extreme - every general greivance you have about ranked can now be rolled into a dynamic queue complaint, and the fastest way for any streamer to get some publicity is to shit on dynamic queue. People's hatred of dynamic queue also spans so many different axes it's hard for Riot to figure out a compromise solution; look at how the community hated the D5-premade solution.
In an ideal world they would just come out and decree by fiat that solo queue is gone forever and never coming back. But that'll be a hugely negatively received announcement, the game will get a lot of bad press, and so on. Yet I really don't see them caving and introducing another ranked queue - especially because it's not like the people who are currently complaining are ever going to post about how satisfied they are with the game. Maybe the thinking is, if they're gonna bitch about something, let everyone bitch about dynamic queue, because if we solve this problem they're just going to moan about how they aren't getting enough key fragments, or how the tank meta is unbearable, or how hidden MMR sucks, or sandbox spaghetti, etc. etc.
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On April 08 2016 10:15 Gahlo wrote:
So according to a reddit thread, Riot fucked up and Zed's AD multiplier on rank 5 W is 200% instead of 20%.
Riot probably did a ninja hotfix. I played Zed in a game and its still 20%.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On April 09 2016 02:53 Alaric wrote:
Riot isn't tapping into that demographic at all. Taking a hit in their numbers regarding that population is expected, and they weren't necessarily the biggest spenders anyway.
Plus, Riot wants retention at this point, to keep milking the player base, so the players who will leave don't interest them as much as the ones they can keep here.
It doesn't matter that 3 people spending a moderate amount leave, if the 7 friends they broought to the game keep bringing their own friends even after the changes, and are in fact more likely to do so, which each of them individually spending more.
The average LoL player doesn't read the patch notes nor watches the champion spotlights, let alone go to websites such as reddit or TL.
In terms of demography and what's expected of the player base, picture LoL closer to candy crush than reddit, basically.
I hate agreeing with you, but I think that minus the implied condescension, this is exactly it.
When I think of Riot's audience, I think of my wife. We play with a group of maybe 15-20 friends who spend a ton of money on this game - I think half of them have Meowkai and every birthday people send around mystery gifts - and often reel in new players. We took a group trip to NA LCS at MSG. Yet absolutely none of them would ever, ever play sandbox mode; none have ever watched replays of their play; maybe a third of them play ranked, and when I asked her about dynamic queue, she said it was awesome because it meant that we all got to play ranked together. She's played a ton more ranked this season as a result of that change. The idea that it would be a negative thing was completely alien to her. That's Riot's audience.
We immerse ourselves in a totally different world of League players. It is the nastiest and most outspoken community that gives the game its horrible reputation. (If you've ever played with the RedditLFG people during free IP weekend you know what I'm talking about.) And yet, bizarrely, it's the people who are both least likely to leave the game and also those who spend the least.
So in a sense, yes, Riot caters towards "casuals". But it's a bit of a misnomer because this is game funded by and exists because of casuals. It's not like WoW, where the hardcore players basically funded the game for everyone else. There's a reason why League far outstrips Dota2, and it's not because there's anything fundamentally superior or inferior in either game. It's easy to get into, and it's the game that probably more of your friends play. That's how Riot survives as a company, and so by comparison 4000 reddit upvotes on dynamic queue or sandbox or replays ultimately means basically nothing.
Not to say that the Reddit anger about dynamic queue or whatever is unjustified - I wish I had sandbox/replays too. But I think I get why it's just not a priority for the company. Reddit anger is never-ending. You could take every single Riot Pls post, fix them all, and they'd still find something to complain about. By contrast stuff like dynamic queue actually makes a lot of people enjoy League more, and those people spend more, draw more players, and ultimately matter more to Riot.
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On April 09 2016 02:57 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2016 02:37 Slusher wrote:
I'm not sure why the average Reddit user is so on the anti dynamic q hype train, but the fact that they are and Riot isn't scared is very interesting to me. I don't mean that sarcastic in any way, it actually just makes me genuinely curious. I wouldn't say they are "scared", but I do think they don't really know what to do here. People have decided that dynamic queue sucks, and at this point the groupthink is so strong that people are unlikely to change their minds (especially when anyone can blame their ranked woes on dynamic queue and get sympathy instead of derision). At the same time, Riot also knows that releasing solo queue is going to significantly increase queue times and make matchmaking worse, while also hurting their efforts to make League a more friend-focused game. My guess is that they hoped that this would all blow over so that when they officially terminated solo queue, it would be like the general attitude towards Dominion: whatever, good riddance. Instead it's become calcified and a little bit ridiculously extreme - every general greivance you have about ranked can now be rolled into a dynamic queue complaint, and the fastest way for any streamer to get some publicity is to shit on dynamic queue. People's hatred of dynamic queue also spans so many different axes it's hard for Riot to figure out a compromise solution; look at how the community hated the D5-premade solution. In an ideal world they would just come out and decree by fiat that solo queue is gone forever and never coming back. But that'll be a hugely negatively received announcement, the game will get a lot of bad press, and so on. Yet I really don't see them caving and introducing another ranked queue - especially because it's not like the people who are currently complaining are ever going to post about how satisfied they are with the game. Maybe the thinking is, if they're gonna bitch about something, let everyone bitch about dynamic queue, because if we solve this problem they're just going to moan about how they aren't getting enough key fragments, or how the tank meta is unbearable, or how hidden MMR sucks, or sandbox spaghetti, etc. etc.
Its just exposing that ranked play is about Epeen (always has been and anyone who said other things was stupid, or a liar), and it negatively effects a lot of people's rank, so of course they are going to complain. Its not groupthink, its rational self interest.
The groupthink is in Riot (who routinely has this problem) where they didn't predict this backlash ahead of time and take steps to head it off at the pass.
Edit, another quibble with your "Casuals vs. Hardcore" I do think that Riot needs the hardcore demo because those people are the tastemakers that dive the game. So you do have to throw them a bone often enough to keep them interested.
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casual games die fast, look at d3 playerbase compared to longevity of d2 or how is heroes of storm doing now (most people got bored after few weeks of playing). blizzard destroyed their brand because they decided to cater casuals, it might have given them better sales but their games are shadow of what they used to be.
On other hand maybe riot knows game is declining and this is their final attempt to get money from people before game dies completely.
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On April 09 2016 02:57 GrandInquisitor wrote:People's hatred of dynamic queue also spans so many different axes it's hard for Riot to figure out a compromise solution; look at how the community hated the D5-premade solution.
There's no compromise to have. The D5-premade solution breaks a huge number of amateur teams all the while leaving DQ being the frankestein disgusting thing it has been from the start.
On April 09 2016 03:09 GrandInquisitor wrote:So in a sense, yes, Riot caters towards "casuals". But it's a bit of a misnomer because this is game funded by and exists because of casuals. It's not like WoW, where the hardcore players basically funded the game for everyone else.
Forgetting the roots. Without the hardcore players this game would have never have existed/gained traction.
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You don't have to give what amounts to less than 1% of your playerbase anything. Not sure what you mean by tastemakers either. Hardcore players are irrelevant to the revenue of any game.
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If those 1% didn't fuel the huge marketing side of Riot in terms of "esports", LCS, competitiveness of the game, etc, you might have had a point. But since they do, I really don't see it.
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you mean pros? As to that I'm actually not sure. Do casuals even watch lcs?
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Pros, streamers, tournaments for amateur teams, etc. Those are more influential than just 1%-
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On April 09 2016 03:37 kongoline wrote:
casual games die fast, look at d3 playerbase compared to longevity of d2 or how is heroes of storm doing now (most people got bored after few weeks of playing). blizzard destroyed their brand because they decided to cater casuals, it might have given them better sales but their games are shadow of what they used to be.
On other hand maybe riot knows game is declining and this is their final attempt to get money from people before game dies completely.
And there's the dichotomy of it. The quality of their games might be lower from a player perspective, but from a buisness perspective they are better. It's no surprise which method companies prefer most.
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EPT
