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On April 07 2016 04:37 VayneAuthority wrote:
It only looks really bad because not only are they meh skins, they are meh skins for champs over saturated with skins minus elise.
Bad skins for champs that have nothing isn't as egregious.
Honestly, none of the champ skins have lived up to the TPA skins. Mundo, Shen, and Ori were great. Ez had the cool finger and Nunu is fine (they should have changed the color of Snowball and Mystic Shot on those skins, but w/e).
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On April 07 2016 03:52 nafta wrote:
Well considering I personally got 11 people over the plat1>d5 hurdle yea I would definitely make that argument.
Also when there are more shitters obviously it gets easier to climb.
And more people have smurfs than before.
It doesn't actually inflate mmr for groups riot removed that. You don't get higher mmr for being in a group which is stupid.
there is no hurdle between p1 and d5
you could be either rank and have the same mmr
you could carry people through promos using duo queue before.
neither of these are new issues that arouse because of the existence of dynamic queue. the fact is that for 99% of players it has no effect on their ability to play the game
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On April 07 2016 05:37 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2016 03:52 nafta wrote:
Well considering I personally got 11 people over the plat1>d5 hurdle yea I would definitely make that argument.
Also when there are more shitters obviously it gets easier to climb.
And more people have smurfs than before.
It doesn't actually inflate mmr for groups riot removed that. You don't get higher mmr for being in a group which is stupid. there is no hurdle between p1 and d5 you could be either rank and have the same mmr you could carry people through promos using duo queue before. neither of these are new issues that arouse because of the existence of dynamic queue. the fact is that for 99% of players it has no effect on their ability to play the game
Hey I am part of the people who thought duoq shouldn't exist since s2 for what it is worth.
They aren't new issues but they are more common.
There is definitely a hurdle. You can't go over that promo without having high winrate. You can just win a couple of games and keep a 50% winrate to stay there.
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Does Udyr REALLY need yet another nerf? I know he's strong, but he's gotten weaker in two of the last three patches.
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Because "late game fantasy" even though Udyr's curve doesn't trend toward late game at all. Of course he wants to farm fast since he falls off later so he wants to reach his peak asap before other champions/comps outscale him.
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That's my point, he already sort of has a tradeoff already doesn't he?
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On April 07 2016 05:37 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2016 03:52 nafta wrote:
Well considering I personally got 11 people over the plat1>d5 hurdle yea I would definitely make that argument.
Also when there are more shitters obviously it gets easier to climb.
And more people have smurfs than before.
It doesn't actually inflate mmr for groups riot removed that. You don't get higher mmr for being in a group which is stupid. there is no hurdle between p1 and d5 you could be either rank and have the same mmr you could carry people through promos using duo queue before. neither of these are new issues that arouse because of the existence of dynamic queue. the fact is that for 99% of players it has no effect on their ability to play the game
You could carry people using duoq, but there was also the duoq mmr bump, and the fact that you have only 1 smurf in the game. It was definitely harder to carry people previously.
My friend was playing d5's for masters promo because the other 2 people were on low plat accounts. It's a rare abuse case, but it's definitely there.
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I'm still not really convinced Udyr does anything useful.
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At this point, I could probably agree with you. A month ago, however, I was winning most of my duels against Jax. Of course, they probably weren't building well, and I float between Bronze and Silver, but still.
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On April 07 2016 06:33 Ansibled wrote:
I'm still not really convinced Udyr does anything useful.
He benefits your team by never giving up kill gold because he is always running away from everything.
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On April 07 2016 06:43 JazzVortical wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2016 06:33 Ansibled wrote:
I'm still not really convinced Udyr does anything useful. He benefits your team by never giving up kill gold because he is always running away from everything.
The truest aspect of carrying, never dying.
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This udyr nerf seems really odd to me but i didn't get to play much this patch. Like he seems good but good is ok, right?
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there is little counterplay to a champ that pushes waves very fast, is extremely fast, and skirmishes extremely well. It's why a dumb solo queue champ like him even saw play in LCS.
regardless of what you did early/mid game as long as your team can hold towers reasonably well:
push lane --> rotate ---> abuse rotation/push lane/drop zzrot ---> rotate --->
and the cycle repeats. you can just keep doing this until the other team crumbles. until you to only inhib towers. and then you have the map control to take more barons/dragons/etc or just run away if they ever commit.
That is how you abuse udyr
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On April 07 2016 04:01 GrandInquisitor wrote:
1) By "inflate", you're suggesting that BronzeBob is able to achieve a higher rank, say, Silver, because he's playing with SilverSam + three other Silver friends all the time. But BronzeBilly, who doesn't play with friends, but is equally skilled as BronzeBilly, can't climb.
No. I mean that if BronzeBob and BronzeBilly queue up as a group and so attain the advantages of cooperation. They will increase their MMR over BronzeBilbo who does not but is otherwise equally skilled.
We had the conversation in the last thread but think of it like this. the BronzeBombers, made up of BronzeBob and co, were they to team up up as 5 and coordinate, would be better or worse than 5 BronzeBilbo's? I say better. And so players who team up will increase in MMR to represent that difference. Its the same effect that creates the MMR variance in 2 you accept as happening.
3) I've got decent but not perfect evidence that it massively increased ranked populations. Do you have evidence of at least the same quality suggesting the opposite?
I mean that we may not really care about queue shifting. We don't really care if people moved from normal queue to ranked queue
5) This is largely a fault of new champion select, not dynamic queue. If everyone at Master+ MMR queues for Top/Jungle, there will literally be no fair games created. That is unfortunate but what are you going to do. It is a fundamental limitation of the matchmaking system that it is going to break down at low numbers of players.
I would bet that higher tiers have a more even distribution of "less preferred roles" than lower tiers
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On April 07 2016 07:08 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2016 04:01 GrandInquisitor wrote:
1) By "inflate", you're suggesting that BronzeBob is able to achieve a higher rank, say, Silver, because he's playing with SilverSam + three other Silver friends all the time. But BronzeBilly, who doesn't play with friends, but is equally skilled as BronzeBilly, can't climb. No. I mean that if BronzeBob and BronzeBilly queue up as a group and so attain the advantages of cooperation. They will increase their MMR over BronzeBilbo who does not but is otherwise equally skilled. We had the conversation in the last thread but think of it like this. the BronzeBombers, made up of BronzeBob and co, were they to team up up as 5 and coordinate, would be better or worse than 5 BronzeBilbo's? I say better. And so players who team up will increase in MMR to represent that difference. Its the same effect that creates the MMR variance in 2 you accept as happening. Show nested quote +
3) I've got decent but not perfect evidence that it massively increased ranked populations. Do you have evidence of at least the same quality suggesting the opposite?
I mean that we may not really care about queue shifting. We don't really care if people moved from normal queue to ranked queue Show nested quote +
5) This is largely a fault of new champion select, not dynamic queue. If everyone at Master+ MMR queues for Top/Jungle, there will literally be no fair games created. That is unfortunate but what are you going to do. It is a fundamental limitation of the matchmaking system that it is going to break down at low numbers of players.
I would bet that higher tiers have a more even distribution of "less preferred roles" than lower tiers
Agreed on the last two points.
As to your first, I think our core difference is this - are the five Bronze Bombers, each of whom individually could not get out of Bronze playing solo queue, capable of reaching Silver if they play together? I don't think they can. They enjoy the advantage of cooperation, but so do their opponents!
Now, maybe the Bronze Bombers are really damn good at teamplay but absolute dogshit if they are playing on their own. But that's no different than the fact that League skill is measured along a lot of different axes. Someone who is shit at mechanics might have above-average map awareness and macro play. Here, if the Bronze Bombers consistently beat their opponents thanks to the magic of cooperation, that seems to me as just another axis of skill that ranked didn't used to measure, but does now.
But even if that is the case, does that mean that ranked is being "inflated" relative to pure solo queue? It'd be true only if you don't think of teamplay as something that your rank should measure, but even then, not necessarily, because the opposite also exists - people who are good at playing on their own but dogshit at playing in a team. Under the model we've constructed, the Bronze Bombers are beating up on people that they would ordinarily lose to, but are beating thanks to the magic of Cooperation. That implies that even if the Bronze Bombers might have an 'inflated' MMR (because you are comparing to a no-teamplay baseline), they are inflating it only by beating up on Bronze Bilbos, who now have a 'deflated' MMR because of how poorly they work together as a team compared to the Bronze Bombers.
I guess my point is that if a group of bad players consistently plays together and is able to achieve a rank above what they normally would: a) that rank isn't going to be a lot higher than their solo queue rank, if at all; and b) they sort of earned it by beating other premades that enjoyed the same advantages but didn't make use of them. It's not like the BronzeBombers can premade up and make it to Diamond, and if they did, maybe they "shouldn't" really be Bronze.
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On April 07 2016 07:08 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2016 04:01 GrandInquisitor wrote:
1) By "inflate", you're suggesting that BronzeBob is able to achieve a higher rank, say, Silver, because he's playing with SilverSam + three other Silver friends all the time. But BronzeBilly, who doesn't play with friends, but is equally skilled as BronzeBilly, can't climb. No. I mean that if BronzeBob and BronzeBilly queue up as a group and so attain the advantages of cooperation. They will increase their MMR over BronzeBilbo who does not but is otherwise equally skilled.
Being able to make friends and play together and use cooperation seem like relevant skills in a team game.
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On April 07 2016 07:22 GrandInquisitor wrote:
As to your first, I think our core difference is this - are the five Bronze Bombers, each of whom individually could not get out of Bronze playing solo queue, capable of reaching Silver if they play together? I don't think they can. They enjoy the advantage of cooperation, but so do their opponents!
Sure and their opponents have a higher MMR reflective of their advantage of cooperation because the cooperation advantage cascades through all of the queue types if there is any overlap at all. Regardless of the number of games any one team in particular play.
If you want the explanation of the math(in words) you can see the older thread or see here.
http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/WrKEJ5Yb-dynamic-queue-mmr-effects?sort_type=recent
With regards to the size of the effect? I haven't done any personal research into group dynamics, but in general what i have seen seems to indicate that group effects are pretty large. So i would suspect that the "magic of cooperation" is worth quite a bit of boost.
On April 07 2016 08:44 Zess wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2016 07:08 Goumindong wrote:On April 07 2016 04:01 GrandInquisitor wrote:
1) By "inflate", you're suggesting that BronzeBob is able to achieve a higher rank, say, Silver, because he's playing with SilverSam + three other Silver friends all the time. But BronzeBilly, who doesn't play with friends, but is equally skilled as BronzeBilly, can't climb. No. I mean that if BronzeBob and BronzeBilly queue up as a group and so attain the advantages of cooperation. They will increase their MMR over BronzeBilbo who does not but is otherwise equally skilled. Being able to make friends and play together and use cooperation seem like relevant skills in a team game.
Sure. But some people don't like the fact that there is no pure soloqueue and so them deciding to play the game alone and not as a cooperative activity for whatever reason is "damaging" to them. In the same way as teams increase their MMR this decreases the MMR/League of people playing solo.
Saying its a relevant skill is just like saying you shouldn't care about your MMR/League. Ok that is true that these things don't/do really matter, but its also true that people still care.
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If people want to complain that they can't play "alone" in a team game, honestly, they aren't playing the right type of game.
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On April 07 2016 09:23 Gahlo wrote:
If people want to complain that they can't play "alone" in a team game, honestly, they aren't playing the right type of game.
Ignoring everything else, Riot just made it so I can't actually play with anyone else anyway. So yeah... :s
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On April 07 2016 09:23 Gahlo wrote:
If people want to complain that they can't play "alone" in a team game, honestly, they aren't playing the right type of game.
Its like going to the gym for pickup basketball. Some people like the "drop in drop out" nature of queuing up solo.
In theory i like the dynamic queue idea. It lets groups play in a more populated environment. But it does have its issues
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EPT
