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On April 07 2016 03:10 Goumindong wrote:
OK fine, dump your MMR on the highest account until you can queue with the rest of your ranked 5 premade team and then play with them. Good lord. The population of ranked 5 teams which need to practice in dynamic queue for their semi-pro games is really small. And while yes, this change can annoy them, its not the end of the world with regards to the game and making dynamic queue better for the rest of the population is better than not.
I agree with you that there should be a solo and a ranked 5's queue. I just don't think that this particular quick fix, of tightening the duo play restrictions because of abuse that effected the rest of us is mechahitler returns.
To me, it's infuriating because it doesn't solve the issues. LCS and CS teams can still queue up as 5 men, and those who were already boosted to d1, master or challenger can still raid as 5.
And it would not solve what happened to Qtpie either. He was at Master (0), so let's say he had high d1 mmr. How did he end up playing with and against plat players as well? And apparently even that game took 30 minutes to be made.
Riot has no winning moves here. If they want faster queue times and more fair matchmaking (in terms of pure mmr), than they would have to lift the restrictions about premade teams, which would (again) cause a whole lotta more shitstorm, when your team has a duo premade at best vs. a premade 4 or 5 team.
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they cut the xp required to get an account to 30 in half. you could probably do it in under a week now
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
I've read every single post on dynamic queue here and to be totally honest, I find all the complaints about dynamic queue extremely confusing. What exactly is the problem? The stated goal of dynamic queue was to get more people playing ranked. It's been a huge success on that front.
Are there a lot more premades than before? By definition, yes. Why is that a problem, if games are matched up 5 vs 5 or 4+1 vs 4+1? Does it really actually suck that bad to be the 1 in a 4+1? Isn't that the mother of selective confirmation bias (you don't remember times where the 4 coordinated to carry your feeding ass, but you do remember times when the 4 flamed you together)?
Are there imbalanced premades where 4 Master Tier players carry a Bronze player? Maybe? Does that actually occur like, more than 1% of the time? And wasn't that a problem before, too? Wouldn't you have been laughed out of the room if you claimed that you couldn't climb in ranked in Season 4 because of too many boosters at your elo? Alternatively, is this a quest to make sure that xXxWeedWhacker420xXx doesn't unfairly get a Victorious Nautilus skin that he doesn't deserve, and if so, who cares?
I just do not buy the argument that the increased sets of premades has made ranked less competitive. First, that argument is always made with the subtext of "and that's why I am stuck in Silver/Gold/Plat V gg", and second, if anything, it's made it much more competitive; players play better when they are playing with friends.
The game done changed. If your playstyle relied on the fact that you were a solitary individual matched up against 5 other solitary individuals each locked in their own black box, you're not going to do as well. Jungle invades, for example, should expect to get collapsed on a lot faster than they used to be. Some might call that "anti-fun"; I take that as evidence that the game is a lot more competitive, not less.
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Why should I give a shit if more people play ranked when they will never get to play on my elo? Why do I have to lose what I enjoy for other people to press play in ranked rather than normal?
Also the game is less competitive because more of those people who don't tryhard are brought to ranked. And no the vast majority don't do coordinated invades and shit.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On April 07 2016 03:34 nafta wrote:
Why should I give a shit if more people play ranked when they will never get to play on my elo? Why do I have to lose what I enjoy for other people to press play in ranked rather than normal?
Also the game is less competitive because more of those people who don't tryhard are brought to ranked. And no the vast majority don't do coordinated invades and shit.
See, we went through this before - there are significantly more players across all of ranked, including in Master Tier: http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/506252-patch-66-dragon-starsurge-z-general-discussion?page=3#59 For example, EUW added nearly 5,000 players who hit Diamond or better by March.
Now, you'll probably say that those 5,000 players are just boosted thanks to Dynamic Queue. Seems pretty implausible that all of them got boosted given that the ranked population for lower tiers grew pretty much proportionally as you'd expect. The fact remains, though, that if you're trying to prove that high-elo ranked was somehow "gutted" by Dynamic Queue, you first have to deal with the fact that there are a lot more Dia+ players, and in any event definitely not fewer Dia+ players.
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On April 07 2016 03:25 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I've read every single post on dynamic queue here and to be totally honest, I find all the complaints about dynamic queue extremely confusing. What exactly is the problem? The stated goal of dynamic queue was to get more people playing ranked. It's been a huge success on that front.
[...]for space
The short answer is that dynamic queue
1) inflates the MMR of groups over what it would be for solo players. Such, people who care about their MMR but don't play in groups have a harder time climbing. Its less about weedwhacker not deserving it and them thinking they do.
2) When players play in different sized groups, the difference between their solo ability and group ability creates additional variance in the MMR calculation, which makes matchmaking less accurate
3) It very well might not have increased players "playing ranked" by reasonable estimations since rather its shifting queues and not increasing players.
4) its abusable in various ways (such as the smurf duo of old) but more obviously and prominently here because there are more players.
5) It creates team imbalances at higher ranks because all the best players queue up and so can't ever be matched against each other.
There are other concerns about being the odd man out and how that is/isn't fun as well but someone else can elaborate on those
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Well considering I personally got 11 people over the plat1>d5 hurdle yea I would definitely make that argument.
Also when there are more shitters obviously it gets easier to climb.
And more people have smurfs than before.
It doesn't actually inflate mmr for groups riot removed that. You don't get higher mmr for being in a group which is stupid.
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Also the rank gets inflated every season.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On April 07 2016 03:51 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2016 03:25 GrandInquisitor wrote:
I've read every single post on dynamic queue here and to be totally honest, I find all the complaints about dynamic queue extremely confusing. What exactly is the problem? The stated goal of dynamic queue was to get more people playing ranked. It's been a huge success on that front.
[...]for space
The short answer is that dynamic queue 1) inflates the MMR of groups over what it would be for solo players. Such, people who care about their MMR but don't play in groups have a harder time climbing. Its less about weedwhacker not deserving it and them thinking they do. 2) When players play in different sized groups, the difference between their solo ability and group ability creates additional variance in the MMR calculation, which makes matchmaking less accurate 3) It very well might not have increased players "playing ranked" by reasonable estimations. 4) its abusable in various ways (such as the smurf duo of old) but more obviously and prominently here because there are more players. 5) It creates team imbalances at higher ranks because all the best players queue up and so can't ever be matched against each other. There are other concerns about being the odd man out and how that is/isn't fun as well but someone else can elaborate on those
OK, let's talk about each of these in turn.
1) By "inflate", you're suggesting that BronzeBob is able to achieve a higher rank, say, Silver, because he's playing with SilverSam + three other Silver friends all the time. But BronzeBilly, who doesn't play with friends, but is equally skilled as BronzeBilly, can't climb.
I don't think this is plausible. First of all, if BronzeBob isn't getting shit on by Silver players, and is able to maintain a >50% winrate in games filled with Silver players, it sounds like he's a Silver player. If BronzeBilly is able to do that, then he should be able to climb too. Isn't that what we tell every Bronze player convinced they are in elo hell? BronzeBilly can climb out of Bronze even playing champs like Nunu and Lulu, he's just not actually good at doing that. If BronzeBob can beat a Silver premade by playing team-oriented champs, then he should be able to do the same in solo queue. Sure, his gameplay is probably weaker because he can't rely on his teammates, but he's also facing weaker opposition because his opponents can't rely on each other either.
I DO think that Dynamic Queue affects champion balance, i.e., it probably inflates the winrate of Lulu/Nunu/etc. compared to stereotypical solo queue heroes. But that's a totally different issue.
2) Agreed. This is a totally valid criticism though I doubt it ultimately makes a big difference, because as you suggest, it's more an issue of variance than a systematic MMR inflation or deflation.
3) I've got decent but not perfect evidence that it massively increased ranked populations. Do you have evidence of at least the same quality suggesting the opposite?
4) Agreed. But how often does this happen? Take me for an example. I religiously track all of my ranked games. In none of my solo queue games so far this season have I seen something as dramatic as everyone posits: 4 Plat I players with a Gold V player, or etc. I don't think it actually happens that often, and you have to remember that even though you have more people "carrying", it also tilts MMR even higher up so that the Gold V player is even more out of his league. So it's not actually that much easier to be hard carrying a deadweight player. People will still try and carry their friends, but that happened before, too. Now they can form bigger groups to try to carry their friends, but they are up against tougher opposition if they try to do so.
5) This is largely a fault of new champion select, not dynamic queue. If everyone at Master+ MMR queues for Top/Jungle, there will literally be no fair games created. That is unfortunate but what are you going to do. It is a fundamental limitation of the matchmaking system that it is going to break down at low numbers of players.
---
Incidentally I thought of another objection, which is that it might unfairly benefit some sets of premades. Let's say you and your two best buds are Jungle/Mid/Top and that's how you queue. You can set up a lot of nice triple ganks which maybe earns you a bit of extra MMR. Compared to a trio that mains ADC/Supp/Mid, for example, and those guys have a lot less ability to be coordinating those map-wide plays. That's a valid criticism, but again, it exists so long as you have duo queue (Jungle/Mid is always going to be a better pairing than Top/Support).
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I highly suggest not getting into a debate with the guy that would literally take a grenade for a riot employee. He doesnt have any opinions except that Riot is always right.
But carry on
The worst part is that we have multiple diamond+ post here and he claims to know the elo better then all of us without ever playing a single game there, hes a joke just ignore.
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On April 07 2016 04:07 VayneAuthority wrote:
I highly suggest not getting into a debate with the guy that would literally take a grenade for a riot employee. He doesnt have any opinions except that Riot is always right.
But carry on
The worst part is that we have multiple diamond+ post here and he claims to know the elo better then all of us without ever playing a single game there, hes a joke just ignore.
I can see where riot was going with this (my friend who's d1 was going to hit masters by trioing with 2x masters with plat accounts), but it does suck outside of the abuse cases.
I hit D4 and I pretty much can never dynamicq with my friends ever again on my main account, so that sucks.
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On April 07 2016 04:07 VayneAuthority wrote:
I highly suggest not getting into a debate with the guy that would literally take a grenade for a riot employee. He doesnt have any opinions except that Riot is always right.
But carry on
The worst part is that we have multiple diamond+ post here and he claims to know the elo better then all of us without ever playing a single game there, hes a joke just ignore.
Nah he is exactly like us except he prefers to call us retards while we prefer to call riot and a big part of the playerbase retards.
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I literally can't duo with any of the 9 or so people I normally play with anymore...
Was going to start playing league again now that I'm finally done with exams, but I don't really want to after this :s
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The Samsung skins are 100x better than these shitty SKT skins jesus
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On April 07 2016 04:24 killerdog wrote:
I literally can't duo with any of the 9 or so people I normally play with anymore...
Was going to start playing league again now that I'm finally done with exams, but I don't really want to after this :s
If you want we can do the goumindong strat. I will give you my account and you can int feed on it until it drops a place we can duo on so we can play  . Too lazy to do it myself tbh.
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Bearded Elder29905 Posts
On April 07 2016 04:26 MooMooMugi wrote:
The Samsung skins are 100x better than these shitty SKT skins jesus
SKT skins are goddamn awful, no idea why they released such a low quality textures. Also Bengi/Faker deserve way better skins for double Worlds trophy. Also Easyhoon was #robbed.
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On April 07 2016 04:31 739 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2016 04:26 MooMooMugi wrote:
The Samsung skins are 100x better than these shitty SKT skins jesus SKT skins are goddamn awful, no idea why they released such a low quality textures. Also Bengi/Faker deserve way better skins for double Worlds trophy. Also Easyhoon was #robbed.
"Oh you guys won two world championships? Lemme just give you guys a set of half-assed skins of champions and ignore the champions you requested skins for, cus fuck what you think h4h4"
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It only looks really bad because not only are they meh skins, they are meh skins for champs over saturated with skins minus elise.
Bad skins for champs that have nothing isn't as egregious.
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dam i wish i had friends to play this game with
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Only playing Armor of the 5th Age from here on out. That V is just too glorious.
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EPT
