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On April 15 2016 03:37 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 02:54 DarkCore wrote:
On a side note, Janna and Soraka could use some nerfs again. I've won too many lanes bc my Janna knew what she was doing, and vice versa playing against those two champs is tiring, literally playing on knife's edge trying to harass opponents out of lane, while one mistake can end up with you down to 50% health and enemy carry at full. And ppl need to stop picking Thresh as their standard support, unless they're legit good at him. A passive Thresh player (there's a lot of those in Plat) don't seem to understand that they're the biggest reason their carry is 20 cs down and being zoned hard. Janna is kind of weak right now imo. There are a lot of melees for her to peel well but at the moment Karma does about everything she does but better and also has more options to engage. The reason that Karma doesn't look as high on champion.gg win rate is because people have no clue how to play her.(they start Q and max Q! Idiots*) sort of how Soraka's win rate is lower than it should be for the same reason(they start W and max W! Idiots) Soraka however, is indeed OP as shit *They're also building terrible, skipping CDR for pen and AP. You've got a move speed boosting shield on an 8 second base CD, use that shit!
Eh. Karma and Janna serve entirely different purposes and have very different play styles. Current meta is in my opinion great for Janna as she can cancel basically every gapcloser (outside of Maokai) the popular melee champions use, heck you can even troll Leblanc and Azir. If an opponent's melee champion is getting to and sticking to your squishies you're doing something wrong.
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On April 15 2016 03:42 Slayer91 wrote:
I think you overrated karma on account of playing her a lot. Karma is champion good against AoE I guess but janna is way scarier to play against as any diving champ
like even if you force her to blow her ult she still heals adc +anyone close to full+a new shield and the adc got the insane janna ad boost.
I'm not talking about lane obviously karma has a strong lane phase with q poke
don't know why you wouldn't max Q. E seems weak in lane and great later while Q is the opposite
I mean statistically janna and ashe both have great winrates while karma has one of the worst for a non-troll support
you can claim that "nobody knows how to play her" but it's going to be hard to convincingly prove that your way of playing is objectively stronger
Mantra + E is more shields/healing than Janna ult+shield and less dangerous to use... and on a much lower CD. Janna's only advantage over Karma is that she can ult assassins away and potentially interrupt dashes with her Q.
Which is valuable, granted, but the reasonable CD of Mantra + E in skirmishes or team fights is hilariously low, and its power is massive. At level 11 the base CD with 45% CDR is 21.45. But you get 2.5 seconds for every tick of W damage and 2.5 seconds for every target hit with a Q and 1.25 seconds for every auto attack. So if you can hit one enemy with a Q, get a full W channel, and auto attack twice then your CD is now 8.95 seconds, just .15 seconds after your third E comes up, so every other shield can be Mantra'd. At level 16 its almost guaranteed. At level 11 that is a 370+1.1 AP shield at level 16 its 440+1.1 AP. Every 9 seconds... not counting the normal E you get to cast between those.
You don't max Q because it kind of sucks. You get 45 damage/level and some CDR on a non-targeted ability. No extra slow. No extra utility. No extra peel. W is a better level(over 1 rotation). You get bonus root duration and 50 damage/level. E is a better level. You get 5% lower CD [.5 seconds, which is key for later total shield power], and 30 HP[slightly better in Shield/Time than Janna], and 5% move speed.
So we can see that, simply by math, if we don't get to Q on CD that W is a better level than Q in lane. So the bonus root and bonus damage per rotation will make you overall stronger(and make it easier to land Mantra Q's if that is your bag*). Would you level W over E on Karma? If you wouldn't then it similarly doesn't make sense to level Q first.
Then, once we get out of lane we can see the obvious deficiencies of a Q max. You have neither a long root duration (W) or a big, low cooldown, shield, with a massive speed up (E). Compare to Morgana where you come out of lane with a 3 second root at 1175 range. You have a 1.5 second 25% slow on 950 range. If you didn't snowball your lane super hard as Q max karma then you're basically done, you're Morgana without the Dark Binding or black shield. You're Bard without the Stun(or slow! Bards Q slow is 60% for 1.8 seconds), or mystical journey, or long range pick ult...
*which really, it should not be, because most of the Mantra Q advantage is on the secondary pop. Its very hard to get people to take that damage unless you have rooted them with W first because the slow is not enough to stop people from walking out if you hit them with the projectile. If they have a dash you're almost assuredly not going to get it.
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Actually best part about mantra q is how easy it is to hit
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you realize q has a long range and short cd and you can do damage to enemies without taking damage right?
also if you think having a glorified locket is as good as janna ult i dont know what to tell you
theres a difference between a shield and a heal and you underestimate the power of cc on that level
like you are ignoring completely that w has 12 s cd and short range vs 5 second cd q and long range
if you're just going to do math ignoring things like that well do some math on jax and yi you by your logic they are the best champs in the game
your cc is going to suck compared to morgana regardless lol, w is delayed root with short range it's not the hardest thing to avoid if you dont want to get hit
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On April 15 2016 04:55 nafta wrote:
Actually best part about mantra q is how easy it is to hit
The first part yea, but not the second part. In order to hit the second part you have to weave the projectile behind the enemy, so that they have to walk forward in order to not take damage(or you have to root them first, and such walk into your carry). And you have to do this so that they still take the initial damage.
So no, its not easy to hit.
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if it was easy to hit it would be broken because the full damage on a mantra q is pretty insane for a poke spell
its incredibly easy to hit the first part which is a lot of the damage because it always explodes so its hard for the enemy to dodge or outrange because of the radius
edit: 785+1.5AP if anyone is wondering about the hard numbers
thats about as much as a normal champs full rotation lel
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On April 15 2016 04:58 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 04:55 nafta wrote:
Actually best part about mantra q is how easy it is to hit The first part yea, but not the second part. In order to hit the second part you have to weave the projectile behind the enemy, so that they have to walk forward in order to not take damage(or you have to root them first, and such walk into your carry). And you have to do this so that they still take the initial damage. So no, its not easy to hit.
Yea the first part being easier to hit doesn't mean the spell is easier to hit 10/10
The second part just forces people to move in a certain way or take damage. Dunno how can you completely ignore that too. Sounds like someone who is bad at the game tbh fam
You can easily spam q on cd to zone from cs that is literally all karma is good at wtf?!!? (at post under)
Fuck man I broke my "don't reat posts by rioters" rule to keep my sanity. And I got another tumor rip
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On April 15 2016 04:56 Slayer91 wrote:
you realize q has a long range and short cd and you can do damage to enemies without taking damage right?
also if you think having a glorified locket is as good as janna ult i dont know what to tell you
theres a difference between a shield and a heal and you underestimate the power of cc on that level
like you are ignoring completely that w has 12 s cd and short range vs 5 second cd q and long range
if you're just going to do math ignoring things like that well do some math on jax and yi you by your logic they are the best champs in the game
your cc is going to suck compared to morgana regardless lol, w is delayed root with short range it's not the hardest thing to avoid if you dont want to get hit
Locket on a 9 second CD that also gave a 60% speedup would be OP as fuck.
I did not ignore that W has a 12 second CD. I simply know, from laning, that you cannot expect to reasonably spam Q's on CD not if you want to hit anything. That its better to root fist to force CD's or wait until you get a good opening. This requires being closer than the listed range and it reduces the effect of the lower CD.
And well, its not that long range. Its got 950 range.
Bard Q has 950 base range not including secondary range. Thresh hook has 1100. Morgana bind has 1175. Zyra roots have 1100. Soraka Q has 1035(after Radius). Those are long range abilities.
On April 15 2016 04:59 Slayer91 wrote:
if it was easy to hit it would be broken because the full damage on a mantra q is pretty insane for a poke spell
its incredibly easy to hit the first part which is a lot of the damage because it always explodes so its hard for the enemy to dodge or outrange because of the radius
edit: 785+1.5AP if anyone is wondering about the hard numbers
thats about as much as a normal champs full rotation lel
Its very good damage at level 1, but not "as much as a normal champs full rotation". Even if you add in her W its not close to a normal champs full rotation. Morgana for instance, on just Q and R does 900+2.2 AP. Lux on Q,E,R does 1158+2.25 assuming no auto attacks. Karma does 1045+2.4 if she can hit the whole thing, which again, not easy to do.
At level 1 it does 155 + 1.5 if you can hit the whole thing. Bard does 110+.95 on Q + Auto [not including base auto attack damage, just meep damage] and doesn't have nearly as much issue of hitting the entire combo.
So i mean, no its not actually that much damage. If you want a damage support you can play someone who does a lot of damage but also has a pick potential. Its one of the reason why Q max Karma has a shit win rate
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On April 15 2016 05:13 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 04:58 Goumindong wrote:On April 15 2016 04:55 nafta wrote:
Actually best part about mantra q is how easy it is to hit The first part yea, but not the second part. In order to hit the second part you have to weave the projectile behind the enemy, so that they have to walk forward in order to not take damage(or you have to root them first, and such walk into your carry). And you have to do this so that they still take the initial damage. So no, its not easy to hit. Yea the first part being easier to hit doesn't mean the spell is easier to hit 10/10 The second part just forces people to move in a certain way or take damage. Dunno how can you completely ignore that too. Sounds like someone who is bad at the game tbh fam
"the spell is easy to hit" implies that you can do all of the damage on it. But you cannot, because ensuring the second part hits is actually difficult. It would be like calculating Leona's full combo damage including her passive on every ability and then suggesting that, because Leona has an easy time actually hitting her abilities she has an easy time getting all of the passive damage as well. Its just not true.
edit: especially since i explained all of the caveats you bitched about me not explaining. Mantra Q + W does less damage with points in Q rather than points in W. Unless you get a second Q off. And its easier to hit the back side of the mantra+Q with points in W due to the extended root duration. If you want to kill someone you're almost always going to do better with leveling W.
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im not saying that karmas only as useful as a locket
but she's only slightly more useful than a locket which is why she's worse than janna keke
the thing about q is that is had hidden range from the explosion radius (it's also a fast projectile with low animation time unlike morg/thresh etcetc)
also again you're ignoring the fact that if you're hitting w it's a trade meaning they can use their shit too
no its not easy to spam q and hit every time because if you did you'd win lane every time
but if you hit it a lot you'll win lane
and most spells are either hit or miss, and karmas mantra q is easy to hit for the most part and does good damage
i dont know what you're doing with the leona analogy, i never said it was easy to hit the full damage. and i just pointed out how OP it would be if you could
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It is very easy to proc all of the passive procs on leona though. All it takes is picking a champion that can do it.
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On April 15 2016 05:22 nafta wrote:
It is very easy to proc all of the passive procs on leona though. All it takes is picking a champion that can do it.
Who is also in range to attack between the point where she E's and Q's and potentially when she ults(if she does that first). I will grant its easier for Leona to do this than it is for Karma to generally get full damage on mantra Q's.
On April 15 2016 05:22 Slayer91 wrote:
im not saying that karmas only as useful as a locket
but she's only slightly more useful than a locket which is why she's worse than janna keke
the thing about q is that is had hidden range from the explosion radius
Which you only get on the mantra Q. Because you have to hit with the normal Q to get the explosion radius.
i dont know what you're doing with the leona analogy, i never said it was easy to hit the full damage. and i just pointed out how OP it would be if you could
Yes you did. Because my explanation where i said it was hard to land Mantra Q's was that "its hard to get both parts of the damage off" if you then say "lol its easy to hit mantra Q's" in response to my explaining how its hard to get both parts off there is only one reasonable way to interpret that.
How about this. You guys love the "i have experience" answers. I am now 21 and 11, 65% on e start (ok i started Q like twice for various reasons), e max Karma. Do any of you have actual play experience on E max karma? Against wide varieties of teams?
Because I assure you, this shit is hilarious. I pick it into anything. Blind, knowing, whatever. (unless Roka is up then i pick Roka)
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nobody is arguing that it's hard to land the second part of the mantra q, i'm arguing that hitting the q+enhanced damage (easier than hitting regular q as your pointed out) still counts as "being easy to hit"
also q's radius still counts as hidden range because you can hit it off a creep or the other champ in lane to get extra damage and range.
I think I probably E max karma once or twice but seems like a waste of time. Can just play lulu or janna or something if I wanted to do that.
I feel like getting it max rank at level 13 for teamfights is fine, and having stronger damage and poke before that is a much better option.
experience is good, and you might be right, but I don't see it logically.
maybe you'd have gone 23 and 9 with Q max karma. Maybe your winrate will drop (or maybe not) if you play more games and get higher mmr.
I feel like the fact that you are spamming a champion and believe in the way you play it will lead to you a large winrate with any champ, I think you're experiencing the one trick pony drug more than a breakthrough in how to play karma
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I would suggest that as well if the math didn't work out in the same way. And the advantage of e max karma at level 13 is you have maxed w by then for a full second longer root.
Lulu and Janna simply don't do what karma does. They're not fast enough around the map, they use too much mana, they don't have enough turn potential when things go well. While karma does do what they do almost as well if not better than them they cannot replicate Karmas advantages.
It's not like I don't know how Janna plays. I've played hundreds of games on her over the years. I have far more experience of all sorts on Janna. She just isn't as strong as e max karma right now.
Edit: one of the hidden advantages of e max karma is that with rank 1 e spamming it on yourself is worth about 10% move speed over the course of the usage. While at rank 5 it's about 20% due to the lower CD and higher bonus. So you can more easily traverse the map to help allies/rotate.
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I think Karma is better mid and is pretty meh support. Karma's with teleport are strong.
I feel like she needs a decent amount of AP to be worth a pick, and you dont get that at support. Or at least you shouldn't be getting it as support.
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I feel like Q max would still be better for early lane phase where the only reason you bring karma is to win lane. Maybe a compromise where you level Q to 3 or 4 and then max E/W?
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On April 15 2016 06:02 Goumindong wrote:
I would suggest that as well if the math didn't work out in the same way. And the advantage of e max karma at level 13 is you have maxed w by then for a full second longer root.
Lulu and Janna simply don't do what karma does. They're not fast enough around the map, they use too much mana, they don't have enough turn potential when things go well. While karma does do what they do almost as well if not better than them they cannot replicate Karmas advantages.
It's not like I don't know how Janna plays. I've played hundreds of games on her over the years. I have far more experience of all sorts on Janna. She just isn't as strong as e max karma right now.
Edit: one of the hidden advantages of e max karma is that with rank 1 e spamming it on yourself is worth about 10% move speed over the course of the usage. While at rank 5 it's about 20% due to the lower CD and higher bonus. So you can more easily traverse the map to help allies/rotate.
1 second root seems pretty meh to me compared to having your main poke spell at level 1 LOL
the extra movement speed is nice i guess it helps karmas lane phase because she has okay (but not great)) roam
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On April 15 2016 06:11 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 15 2016 06:02 Goumindong wrote:
I would suggest that as well if the math didn't work out in the same way. And the advantage of e max karma at level 13 is you have maxed w by then for a full second longer root.
Lulu and Janna simply don't do what karma does. They're not fast enough around the map, they use too much mana, they don't have enough turn potential when things go well. While karma does do what they do almost as well if not better than them they cannot replicate Karmas advantages.
It's not like I don't know how Janna plays. I've played hundreds of games on her over the years. I have far more experience of all sorts on Janna. She just isn't as strong as e max karma right now.
Edit: one of the hidden advantages of e max karma is that with rank 1 e spamming it on yourself is worth about 10% move speed over the course of the usage. While at rank 5 it's about 20% due to the lower CD and higher bonus. So you can more easily traverse the map to help allies/rotate. 1 second root seems pretty meh to me compared to having your main poke spell at level 1 LOL the extra movement speed is nice i guess it helps karmas lane phase because she has okay (but not great)) roam
I thought that too but 45 damage on a 950 range spell just isn't worth it if it doesn't come with hard pick potential. It's important for a mid because they need that to clear waves. Support karma does not. And support karma without shield max is in a dangerous position using q to siege/poke.
But an extra second of root is an extra second before an enemy can bail after diving. It's an extra second of dps your ally can do without being attacked when you prevent someone from getting to her/him.
Re: amui
E max karma wins lane in precisely the same way that e max Janna wins lane. Except the speed up gives you more options to harass and engage. You really do not need the points in q.
With AP karma isn't that strong. Just look at her overall ratios. They're not that high. What she needs is CDR in order to catapult her mantra usage. (Because the mantra CD reduction from your passive occurs after the %reduction from items/masteries). And tank(y AP) to survive to mantra E or mantra W bait more. Not that AP is bad but it's better to survive to mantra e/w another day than it is to get a slightly bigger shield.
Ardent censor and banner of command are very strong on her (censor applies to everyone in her mantra e so in a team fight you can apply it to everyone about 66% of the time and one person 100% and she can sheild the banner promoted minion in a siege to keep it alive longer)
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Damnit, I accidentally vomited on myself while reading the new Riot Pls announcement from Riot. The only good thing about it, is that you can just quote random sentences and you don't even need to explain why they are utter bs, since they are contradicting themselves on and on and on.
Riot forced themselves between a rock and a hard place. Dynamic queue is unfixable, especially at the highest level. I'm not sure if they are a.) just panicking so throwing stuff out there b.) slowly cashing out league already, knowing their next game is already in the works c.) completely ignorant.
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EPT
