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On April 13 2016 06:33 Slayer91 wrote:gosh how can we distinguish braum/leona/alistar from nami/sona/janna?? Show nested quote +On April 13 2016 06:33 kongoline wrote:
do u still call full AD garen a tank? For me items dictate what champion is, everyone who builds 1-3 dedicated damage items rest tank is a bruiser, some champions work better with that build like jax,irelia or nasus but fact they beat renekton late game doesnt mean hes not a bruiser he as much of a bruiser as they are but with different power spike and laning phase. Definition can be blury in some cases between tank and bruiser but things like full AD renekton or irelia are imo assassins now, same with maokai who builds RoA,abyssal,IBG who is more of ap bruiser than a tank in my eyes. full ad garen is a bad player kek if you want to think like that sure. ad garen and full ad irelia are assassins and full tank irelia is a tank the thing is full ad irelia is a shit assassin and full tank irelia is a shit tank let's cut the shit and start assuming builds that fit the champion
that was just extreme example but you can go 2 damage items on garen which is completely viable build are u still a tank or a bruiser now? like i said in my previous post the line between those 2 classes is blurry and relays on item builds more than anything else
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On April 13 2016 06:33 Slayer91 wrote:
gosh how can we distinguish braum/leona/alistar from nami/sona/janna??
We distinguish them as champions everyone plays vs champions IMT plays
:-P
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On April 13 2016 06:36 kongoline wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2016 06:33 Slayer91 wrote:gosh how can we distinguish braum/leona/alistar from nami/sona/janna?? On April 13 2016 06:33 kongoline wrote:
do u still call full AD garen a tank? For me items dictate what champion is, everyone who builds 1-3 dedicated damage items rest tank is a bruiser, some champions work better with that build like jax,irelia or nasus but fact they beat renekton late game doesnt mean hes not a bruiser he as much of a bruiser as they are but with different power spike and laning phase. Definition can be blury in some cases between tank and bruiser but things like full AD renekton or irelia are imo assassins now, same with maokai who builds RoA,abyssal,IBG who is more of ap bruiser than a tank in my eyes. full ad garen is a bad player kek if you want to think like that sure. ad garen and full ad irelia are assassins and full tank irelia is a tank the thing is full ad irelia is a shit assassin and full tank irelia is a shit tank let's cut the shit and start assuming builds that fit the champion that was just extreme example but as u wish you can go 2 damage items on garen which is completely viable build are u still a tank or a bruiser now, like i said the line is blurry between those 2 classes and relays on item builds more than anything else
I would disagree that 2 damage items on garen is viable
unless you are saying sunfire black cleaver is 2 damage items (and bc was hella nerfed)
he's still more a tank than a bruiser
my definitions are different than yours the point is he has high burst damage and high tankiness he doesn't have the low cds/high sustained damage that most bruisers have
On April 13 2016 06:34 NeoIllusions wrote:
Could we not???
Having these category/groups for certain champions is inane because there is no actual standard or metric and it devolves into a shitfest about semantics.
I'd much rather you guys talk about individual champs and certain match ups in lane, their pro/con in team fights etc. Most of these convos are about five or less champs, there's really no need to slap over generalized tags to them.
categories are a useful way to think about the game
if you are playing irelia with the same mindset in teamfights that you have in garen you will fail a lot
we can talk about individual champs and individual matchups but there are whatever 100k combinations and going case by case is pointless
a few generalisations and then modifications based on champ is a much more efficient way to learn
the point of the categories is figuring out how we should build/play them not looking at how they build/play and then categorizing them like some kind of LoL version of David Attenborough
or rather looking at their kit in a general sense and figuring out their role and then following build/playstyles that suit similar champs
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Kongoline just hasn't played with non retards so he doesn't understand you can't go 2 damage items on garen unless you are shitstomping plebs and even then it isn't the best build.
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Lots of people build Titanic on Garen, so I guess he means that + BC as two damage items? Honestly I liked it situationally on him as well, but I'd still classify Garen as a tank, albeit one that doesn't take as long to kill your backline as most.
On April 13 2016 06:34 NeoIllusions wrote:
Could we not???
Having these category/groups for certain champions is inane because there is no actual standard or metric and it devolves into a shitfest about semantics.
I'd much rather you guys talk about individual champs and certain match ups in lane, their pro/con in team fights etc. Most of these convos are about five or less champs, there's really no need to slap over generalized tags to them.
Could you not???
There are actual standards and metrics and while I agree there is a bit of arguing about semantics here, there are still a lot of good points being made. As Teut said, we'll of course have to make some case by case adjustments but it's a pretty effective way to think about the game.
Also, Neo, I honestly don't really care what you'd like us to talk about.
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I think Titanic +BC is about as far as you can get and that was pre nerf BC+Titanic and I'm not sure it was the best build then either
(Deadmans+BC-->Steraks-->Titanic/SV was probably better) that was pre deadmans sunfire is the best again I think.
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Hmmm, I liked Titanic whenever I was backdooring their nexus towers but yeah I'm not quite sure it's the best.
It definitely feels the most fun to me though 
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On April 13 2016 06:34 NeoIllusions wrote:
Could we not???
Having these category/groups for certain champions is inane because there is no actual standard or metric and it devolves into a shitfest about semantics.
I'd much rather you guys talk about individual champs and certain match ups in lane, their pro/con in team fights etc. Most of these convos are about five or less champs, there's really no need to slap over generalized tags to them.
It brings you to us, though. It's quite pleasant, once in awhile!
+ Show Spoiler +Either my memory is tricking me, or I'm pretty sure this exact combo of post already happened in the past...
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On April 13 2016 05:09 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2016 01:40 cLutZ wrote:
Uhhg. This again. I remember when the Olaf travesty rework happened and people said, "You don't dive with Olaf anymore you stand in the backline and DPS divers with your ADC!" It was idiotic then, and idiotic now. And the idiocy is proven whenever a pro plays Olaf (they don't play new Olaf much) and he is played as a diver/zerger usually with Sivir and/or Lulu. Yes, the reason why is a little subtle though. You aren't that tanky as olaf and you also rely on hard diving to kill any ranged. (Meaning if you get poked down to 40% you're kinda useless unless already in melee range while say maokai or something can CC and help insta kill someone) You do add a lot of damage to tanks, but tanks are only getting in range of you if you are trying to achieve something like CCing your ADC at which point you can't help to peel and you should have peeled by just diving in. It's a little more complex than that but it's easy to see why people might misunderstand.
Meh, not that subtle. People were envisioning a role for him that is not a real role in LOL: Melee teamfight tankbuster. The melee characters in this game that can arguably do just as well just hitting the other team's tank are Trunde and Nasus. And that is because Trundle has pillar and Nasus has wither which both effectively massively reduce the enemy team's DPS onto them and their team. They both also get tankier during the teamfight using their ult, while Olaf (new) loses tankiness when ulting.
People want to make it appear subtle to defend bad ideas.
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On April 13 2016 07:26 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2016 05:09 Slayer91 wrote:On April 13 2016 01:40 cLutZ wrote:
Uhhg. This again. I remember when the Olaf travesty rework happened and people said, "You don't dive with Olaf anymore you stand in the backline and DPS divers with your ADC!" It was idiotic then, and idiotic now. And the idiocy is proven whenever a pro plays Olaf (they don't play new Olaf much) and he is played as a diver/zerger usually with Sivir and/or Lulu. Yes, the reason why is a little subtle though. You aren't that tanky as olaf and you also rely on hard diving to kill any ranged. (Meaning if you get poked down to 40% you're kinda useless unless already in melee range while say maokai or something can CC and help insta kill someone) You do add a lot of damage to tanks, but tanks are only getting in range of you if you are trying to achieve something like CCing your ADC at which point you can't help to peel and you should have peeled by just diving in. It's a little more complex than that but it's easy to see why people might misunderstand. Meh, not that subtle. People were envisioning a role for him that is not a real role in LOL: Melee teamfight tankbuster. The melee characters in this game that can arguably do just as well just hitting the other team's tank are Trunde and Nasus. And that is because Trundle has pillar and Nasus has wither which both effectively massively reduce the enemy team's DPS onto them and their team. They both also get tankier during the teamfight using their ult, while Olaf (new) loses tankiness when ulting. People want to make it appear subtle to defend bad ideas.
The logic is this:
-Olaf has a lot of DPS with catching axes and E true damage which scales with AD
-->Stay in back and DPS! Why risk diving? You do so much damage!
kind of makes sense but its just not how the game works
I mean yea its good if a tank overdives but assuming he doesn't situation isn't so simple in practice
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United States37500 Posts
On April 13 2016 06:45 Fildun wrote:Lots of people build Titanic on Garen, so I guess he means that + BC as two damage items? Honestly I liked it situationally on him as well, but I'd still classify Garen as a tank, albeit one that doesn't take as long to kill your backline as most. Show nested quote +On April 13 2016 06:34 NeoIllusions wrote:
Could we not???
Having these category/groups for certain champions is inane because there is no actual standard or metric and it devolves into a shitfest about semantics.
I'd much rather you guys talk about individual champs and certain match ups in lane, their pro/con in team fights etc. Most of these convos are about five or less champs, there's really no need to slap over generalized tags to them. Could you not??? There are actual standards and metrics and while I agree there is a bit of arguing about semantics here, there are still a lot of good points being made. As Teut said, we'll of course have to make some case by case adjustments but it's a pretty effective way to think about the game. Also, Neo, I honestly don't really care what you'd like us to talk about.
In the past three pages, that includes when all the personal shit talking started, you guys talked primarily about Top Lane and a handful of specific champions (Olaf, Irelia, Nasus, most recently Garen iirc). I honestly don't see why "tank" this and "bruiser" that has to be brought up when all of those champs excel at different things and have rather different item builds and play styles. Not everyone is as logical or eloquent as Slayer91, so a few guidelines are put in place. Because let's be real, this isn't the first time in GD where people argue about champion categories, not even argue on the same standards, then it gets reduced to personal attacks.
Not sure why you felt it necessary to include that last jab but don't worry, you don't need to care about what I think. If there are more posts of the personal nature, I'm sure the mods will act on it.
P.S. where are said standards and metrics? I'll sticky them in the OP if that's the case. o/
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I personally feel like people get so worked up about these things because when people disagree with them they are disagreeing with someone's fundamental understanding of the game. We aren't computers; we tend to process things in terms of abstract concepts so if kongoline is seeing bruisers as a mix of damage+tank items and vayneauthority is seeing bruisers/tanks in terms of how they achieve their goals in a teamfight then they get angry because its difficult to express the abstract concept in terms of words and so the argument can devolve into a communication breakdown and personal attacks.
I'm pretty sure VA is a much better player (rank-wise, need confirmation) and I think his idea is a little more refined but kongoline has some good points too in terms of how builds affect things and how many non full tank champions share the same rough goal in a teamfight. (to pick out and kill the squishiest)
I mean to some extent they are both correct but there is a lot of futility since people are just picking champs on the boundary and arguing where they fit in, but I wouldn't agree that the conversation is entirely meaningless.
An example is the idea of olaf being a back-line tankbuster. We know from experience this doesn't work but it might be difficult to accurately explain why. But if we classify him as a bruiser or if you will a diving bruiser//assassiny bruiser you can play him like one and achieve better results without questioning it, and if you do question it you can compare him to other similar champions and see why he needs to do the same things.
I'll agree that the banned discussions tend to contain a lot of tilted people personal attacks and bad logic and personal experience which is hard to refute quickly without saying "but im betta than u lol check ur rank scrublord". But the flipside is it's usually because a lot of people believe very strongly about something and a lot of them are wrong, so heated arguments can lead to more important changes of views, than "Oh I should play slightly differently in lane here".
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On April 13 2016 07:30 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2016 07:26 cLutZ wrote:On April 13 2016 05:09 Slayer91 wrote:On April 13 2016 01:40 cLutZ wrote:
Uhhg. This again. I remember when the Olaf travesty rework happened and people said, "You don't dive with Olaf anymore you stand in the backline and DPS divers with your ADC!" It was idiotic then, and idiotic now. And the idiocy is proven whenever a pro plays Olaf (they don't play new Olaf much) and he is played as a diver/zerger usually with Sivir and/or Lulu. Yes, the reason why is a little subtle though. You aren't that tanky as olaf and you also rely on hard diving to kill any ranged. (Meaning if you get poked down to 40% you're kinda useless unless already in melee range while say maokai or something can CC and help insta kill someone) You do add a lot of damage to tanks, but tanks are only getting in range of you if you are trying to achieve something like CCing your ADC at which point you can't help to peel and you should have peeled by just diving in. It's a little more complex than that but it's easy to see why people might misunderstand. Meh, not that subtle. People were envisioning a role for him that is not a real role in LOL: Melee teamfight tankbuster. The melee characters in this game that can arguably do just as well just hitting the other team's tank are Trunde and Nasus. And that is because Trundle has pillar and Nasus has wither which both effectively massively reduce the enemy team's DPS onto them and their team. They both also get tankier during the teamfight using their ult, while Olaf (new) loses tankiness when ulting. People want to make it appear subtle to defend bad ideas. The logic is this: -Olaf has a lot of DPS with catching axes and E true damage which scales with AD -->Stay in back and DPS! Why risk diving? You do so much damage! kind of makes sense but its just not how the game works I mean yea its good if a tank overdives but assuming he doesn't situation isn't so simple in practice
It isn't that bad of an idea but it depends on if the enemy damage dealers can outdamage yours. Most tanks are good at wasting time for the carrries and sometimes just suiciding with the idea of wasting time is way better than trying to be "useful". On tank support especially this concept is very important.
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On April 13 2016 07:55 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2016 07:30 Slayer91 wrote:On April 13 2016 07:26 cLutZ wrote:On April 13 2016 05:09 Slayer91 wrote:On April 13 2016 01:40 cLutZ wrote:
Uhhg. This again. I remember when the Olaf travesty rework happened and people said, "You don't dive with Olaf anymore you stand in the backline and DPS divers with your ADC!" It was idiotic then, and idiotic now. And the idiocy is proven whenever a pro plays Olaf (they don't play new Olaf much) and he is played as a diver/zerger usually with Sivir and/or Lulu. Yes, the reason why is a little subtle though. You aren't that tanky as olaf and you also rely on hard diving to kill any ranged. (Meaning if you get poked down to 40% you're kinda useless unless already in melee range while say maokai or something can CC and help insta kill someone) You do add a lot of damage to tanks, but tanks are only getting in range of you if you are trying to achieve something like CCing your ADC at which point you can't help to peel and you should have peeled by just diving in. It's a little more complex than that but it's easy to see why people might misunderstand. Meh, not that subtle. People were envisioning a role for him that is not a real role in LOL: Melee teamfight tankbuster. The melee characters in this game that can arguably do just as well just hitting the other team's tank are Trunde and Nasus. And that is because Trundle has pillar and Nasus has wither which both effectively massively reduce the enemy team's DPS onto them and their team. They both also get tankier during the teamfight using their ult, while Olaf (new) loses tankiness when ulting. People want to make it appear subtle to defend bad ideas. The logic is this: -Olaf has a lot of DPS with catching axes and E true damage which scales with AD -->Stay in back and DPS! Why risk diving? You do so much damage! kind of makes sense but its just not how the game works I mean yea its good if a tank overdives but assuming he doesn't situation isn't so simple in practice It isn't that bad of an idea but it depends on if the enemy damage dealers can outdamage yours. Most tanks are good at wasting time for the carrries and sometimes just suiciding with the idea of wasting time is way better than trying to be "useful". On tank support especially this concept is very important.
One issue with this is that you sort of forfeit your ability to carry. Maybe you helped your guys kill the enemy tank but you'll be a low hp useless olaf and if their carries outplay yours you'll just lose. If you just steamroll their mage or something then it doesn't matter if your adc can't react dash properly and it mightn't matter if he died because you didn't peel.(It might so that's a flipside too)
I mean that was for the olaf example. The suiciding as tank support thing is interesting because it comes down to one of two situations where it's good
1: If I walk up to this ADC he will focus me when he shoudn't i.e I'm banking on him being bad.
2: If I don't walk up to him it'll be too late by the time he does shit, but if I'm already in range he can't ignore me and thus he's forced to focus me.
and the situations where it's bad:
1: You suicided and the enemy tanks just backed off and you made a bad play
2: You are better than your teammates and you shouldn't be suiciding
It's interesting that half of them are based on bad-players theory and half of them are based on legit how-to-win-teamfights theory LOL.
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On April 13 2016 07:30 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2016 07:26 cLutZ wrote:On April 13 2016 05:09 Slayer91 wrote:On April 13 2016 01:40 cLutZ wrote:
Uhhg. This again. I remember when the Olaf travesty rework happened and people said, "You don't dive with Olaf anymore you stand in the backline and DPS divers with your ADC!" It was idiotic then, and idiotic now. And the idiocy is proven whenever a pro plays Olaf (they don't play new Olaf much) and he is played as a diver/zerger usually with Sivir and/or Lulu. Yes, the reason why is a little subtle though. You aren't that tanky as olaf and you also rely on hard diving to kill any ranged. (Meaning if you get poked down to 40% you're kinda useless unless already in melee range while say maokai or something can CC and help insta kill someone) You do add a lot of damage to tanks, but tanks are only getting in range of you if you are trying to achieve something like CCing your ADC at which point you can't help to peel and you should have peeled by just diving in. It's a little more complex than that but it's easy to see why people might misunderstand. Meh, not that subtle. People were envisioning a role for him that is not a real role in LOL: Melee teamfight tankbuster. The melee characters in this game that can arguably do just as well just hitting the other team's tank are Trunde and Nasus. And that is because Trundle has pillar and Nasus has wither which both effectively massively reduce the enemy team's DPS onto them and their team. They both also get tankier during the teamfight using their ult, while Olaf (new) loses tankiness when ulting. People want to make it appear subtle to defend bad ideas. The logic is this: -Olaf has a lot of DPS with catching axes and E true damage which scales with AD -->Stay in back and DPS! Why risk diving? You do so much damage! kind of makes sense but its just not how the game works I mean yea its good if a tank overdives but assuming he doesn't situation isn't so simple in practice
If his true damage scaled like Fiora's maybe this would be an idea I could support (theoretically I think this strat actually works for her at times). However, it scales off your own AD (which you can't build much of), same with his axes. They both scream "target the lowest HP enemy!!11!" I mean, yes, I have played a few (drunk) games as midlane Olaf with some combination of :Blade, Death Dance, Essense Reaver, Mallet, Maw, Hydra, BC, BT, IE, Ghostblade plus GA. And, in fact, you can totally crush diving tanks with those builds. You also die basically as fast as a Zed trying to do that.
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Yea. That is why the most important skill in league of legends is recognising who is good/bad and who is gonna carry.
A lot of people always just think they are important or just let the others take the wheel.
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I've actually never thought of that.
At least not consciously. In game you get a feel for who's wrecking shop and you kind of try to coordinate with them. Probably best to try to do that actively.
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If you just get a feel you are always gonna focus on the guy doing well early game but he might be a monkey getting lucky. That is why if you wanna be a tryhard looking at everyone's accounts before game starts increases your chances of winning. Gotta focus on the good players and ignore everyone else.
This is support 101. When your ad is a bonobo you just leave him to feed and go with your jungler/mid and hope the pleb doesn't ragequit. Sometimes you can just try to keep the feeding to a minimum and it is the correct play but that is rare.
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This actually made me want to play Lol. Also + Show Spoiler + has restored my faith in league.
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EPT
