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On February 26 2016 09:03 Alaric wrote:
Pantheon's clear speed is atrocious ("only" bad if using AS runes) and he takes a ton of damage doing so. I'm not sure he can do double buffs to level 3 -> gank realistically without the risk of a turnaround with ignite.
Noone cares about jungle Panth though. He is winning from top.
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On February 26 2016 09:00 nafta wrote:
Pick naut/trundle vs him and enjoy the free win. Haven't actually played anything else vs him but don't see how could he hope to do fine vs malph/tahm/etc
Hell you could go lulu/kayle die 4 times in lane and then just group as 5 mid and make him irrelevant.
As naut when you get 6 he literally dies every time you have your ult up if he walks in the mid of the lane lol.
Honestly I think he loses to every single tank top laner in the game.
Pantheon is just a classic "I don't actually know what this champion does" type of champ that gets good winrate just cuz the average soloq player can't open up wikipedia.
yeah those are bad matchups for him.
the problem was never that he didnt have bad matchups though
he was shit before this season because those bad matchups were bad enough to make it not worth ever picking him besides the odd counter pick.
however even in those 'bad' matchups he has more tools to make do with.
1) new masteries are great on him. flat pen+thunderlords
2) tank junglers are not that popular right now. roaming with your jungler, jungler ganking for you, killing the enemy jungler, etc. all got easier. its soloq, there are so many opportunities that are open for a panth to take even if he can't snowball his lane like he wants to.
Pantheon is just a classic "I don't actually know what this champion does" type of champ that gets good winrate just cuz the average soloq player can't open up wikipedia.
I don't get this part. how is knowing what pantheon does any harder than any other champ? his kit is so simple.
I think you're calling him shit because you're imagining scenarios where only good players play against each other.
yes he is definitely generally mediocre at the highest level but he is just that good at the other levels. more so than before and that is why he is getting nerfs. riot doesn't want him to be so overbearing at those other levels and I think that's fine.
it wont affect the highest level that much anyways because they will just start being more selective with their pantheon picks if he cannot get away with as much.
if your average plat+ player playing trundle/naut/etc. can barely manage 48-50% winrate vs him, he's probably in a relatively good spot. not like those tanks are incredibly hard to play either.
edit: yeah jungle panth is meh as always
I haven't seen one in a while either. he's seeing way more play top
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By that I mean people try to fight him early levels and can't just wrap their brain around the idea "I am just gonna get xp and not gonna take 300 damage for 23 gold". Realistically all you gotta do is not die and even being 20 cs behind at lvl 6 is perfectly fine.
Basically all old champs like taric/singed/pantheon/etc who haven't been popular recently win a lot just because for some reason it is too difficult for people to really understand what they can and will do.
Like even with trundle I win so much just because people are completely oblivious about how much damage my champion does if they try to all in us at bot.
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Panth isn't hard to understand, but if you need to actually get killed level 2 to understand that even in bad match-ups vs him all you need to do is stay alive till he's oom and not try to harass him, then he'll have snowballed by the time you realise that.
Otherwise the popular stuff utterly shits on him. Wouldn't Fiora actually be decent at least vs him now, while before he'd be a lot stronger as long as he doesn't get baited into letting her stack her passive?
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maybe panth winrate was so high because he counters both fiora and gp, they just got nerfed and probably will drop in popularity when shit like rammus,naut top is getting popular i predict his winrate will dive a lot
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Mantheon is my favorite champion. That makes me sad. He is definitely stronger than he was back in s2-s3 when i was playing. The new ARP items + ARP rune page annihilates anybody early if they try to cs. Only real problem is Malphite as always.
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Since we're talking about Pantheon, his new lore is tilting me pretty hard.
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The issue with Pantheon's clear speed is that it is very reliant on using Q and E, sometimes multiple Qs to quickly clear a camp. This means he runs out of mana super fast, and with Spirit Stone items no longer existing, the passive mana regen he gets from his jungle item for being in the jungle just isn't enough. It forces you to pick between being slow and taking a lot of damage, or going fast and having no mana for ganks.
His gank potential has always been good, both pre and post-6 simply due to the W-E-Q combo being so strong, and if they somehow get hit by the R then they basically have to blow all their summoners to not be 100% dead. But that same strength means that in the mid and late game when you're trying to siege turrets he's worthless because he doesn't have that same gank pressure/potential. His mid to late game burst isn't as strong as other jungle assassins like Kha or Rengar, and if you go full tank he'll do basically zero damage.
If they want to buff Pantheon jungle without making him be a top lane menace, they need to add something in where he gets a mana refund or increased mana regen whenever he kills a neutral monster or minion with the W or E. You can't put it on Q, otherwise he'll just turn into (basically) an AD Annie, farming top lane minions with Q and harassing opponents down until he can level 3-4 all-in them with the Q execute/crit.
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I've actually found better results going EQW on jungle panth.
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The issue is not the mana, it's that his E does reduced damage to non-champions so it doesn't clar that fast, and the big monsters HP pools are so big it takes him ages to kill them (and he takes a lot of damage in the process).
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I opened the Pantheon topic not because I think he does not need nerfs, but because these nerfs will kick him out of the game, why they need to be so drastic?
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They don't look drastic at all to me.
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Well Heartseeker Strike loses about 1/6th of its damage. It's not as bad as when they took a straight quarter out of WW's Q or Naut's W but for his main source of damage once he gets a couple items (and lategame, and in teamfights) it hurts a lot. Also fucks with his jungle clear even further.
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On February 26 2016 20:47 Alaric wrote:
Well Heartseeker Strike loses about 1/6th of its damage. It's not as bad as when they took a straight quarter out of WW's Q or Naut's W but for his main source of damage once he gets a couple items (and lategame, and in teamfights) it hurts a lot. Also fucks with his jungle clear even further.
i mean his jungler clear is negligible. he's a top laner and occasionally a mid laner vs zed. but a 60 base .6 ratio hit is a big hit no matter the character, though they didnt take damage from his waveclear, just vs champs, apart from the scaling hit. dunno why the europeans are all talking about him in the jungle. is he only used as a terror top in NA?
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well they added keystones like TLD and duskblade which put him over the top
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Australia18228 Posts
On February 26 2016 21:14 kongoline wrote:
well they added keystones like TLD and duskblade which put him over the top
No one goes duskblade on him, it's the other arp Ghostblade + Maw thats ridiculous on him.
I think an E nerf is warranted but the ult nerf is so massive
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On February 26 2016 21:04 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 20:47 Alaric wrote:
Well Heartseeker Strike loses about 1/6th of its damage. It's not as bad as when they took a straight quarter out of WW's Q or Naut's W but for his main source of damage once he gets a couple items (and lategame, and in teamfights) it hurts a lot. Also fucks with his jungle clear even further. i mean his jungler clear is negligible. he's a top laner and occasionally a mid laner vs zed. but a 60 base .6 ratio hit is a big hit no matter the character, though they didnt take damage from his waveclear, just vs champs, apart from the scaling hit. dunno why the europeans are all talking about him in the jungle. is he only used as a terror top in NA?
Probably because according to champion.gg, almost a quarter of his plat+ games are from the jungle and it's where he has the least narrow application.
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On February 26 2016 21:59 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 21:04 PrinceXizor wrote:On February 26 2016 20:47 Alaric wrote:
Well Heartseeker Strike loses about 1/6th of its damage. It's not as bad as when they took a straight quarter out of WW's Q or Naut's W but for his main source of damage once he gets a couple items (and lategame, and in teamfights) it hurts a lot. Also fucks with his jungle clear even further. i mean his jungler clear is negligible. he's a top laner and occasionally a mid laner vs zed. but a 60 base .6 ratio hit is a big hit no matter the character, though they didnt take damage from his waveclear, just vs champs, apart from the scaling hit. dunno why the europeans are all talking about him in the jungle. is he only used as a terror top in NA? Probably because according to champion.gg, almost a quarter of his plat+ games are from the jungle and it's where he has the least narrow application.
I'd put money that the vast majority of those jungle games at "plat+" are in fact lacking the plus. master-challenger level he's pretty much never there. i can only recall seeing one outside of scarra feeding on him there a few times. and that was flexing to that spot.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On February 26 2016 09:00 nafta wrote:
Pantheon is just a classic "I don't actually know what this champion does" type of champ that gets good winrate just cuz the average soloq player can't open up wikipedia.
On February 26 2016 09:18 dsyxelic wrote:
yes he is definitely generally mediocre at the highest level but he is just that good at the other levels. more so than before and that is why he is getting nerfs. riot doesn't want him to be so overbearing at those other levels and I think that's fine.
The data does not support this claim.
http://na.op.gg/statistics/champion/
Bronze: #67 with 48% winrate
Silver: #28 with 52% winrate
Gold: #6 with 55% winrate
Platinum: #4 with 55% winrate
Diamond: #3 with 56% winrate
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According to your data Malzahar is also strong, so yeah, seems pretty pointless.
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EPT
