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Gameplay discussion should go in the Gameplay Discussion thread. Gameplay discussion includes, but is not exclusive to: - Runes and masteries
- Item builds
- Jungle paths
- Playstyle and skill order for new/updated champions
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On January 22 2016 03:53 cLutZ wrote:
Why would I imply otherwise. I am saying they are an essential part of achieving your correct tier, or the tier you "deserve" with respect to some nebulously defined level of skill. Just like ping. Whether or not someone of superior skill can overcome those obstacles is of no moment in this discussion, because we are talking about a person who is generally an average-to-above average MOBA player who would likely be a gold-level player and convincing him to play LOL with you, and his generally correct perception that he may not be able to get end-of-season rewards by playing 4-5 games a week on a wide diversity of champions in a wide diversity of roles because he has to play at a Gold 1 level to break into Gold 5.
this is completely wrong
a person with gold 1 playing ability will get to gold 1 given enough games. runes do not change this in any way. if the person cannot do this they are simply not a gold 1 player.
ping doesn't matter either for the casual solo queue player you mentioned. if you obsess over these details instead of improving your gameplay it becomes a list of excuses as to why you can't rank up. just like blaming your team for everything.
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On January 22 2016 03:39 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 03:37 cLutZ wrote:On January 22 2016 02:20 Frolossus wrote:On January 22 2016 02:18 cLutZ wrote:On January 21 2016 14:46 KissBlade wrote:On January 21 2016 13:41 cLutZ wrote:
That hasn't been acceptable since they did the rune rework. Yes, the 2-5 basic runepages argument was fairly valid in S1-3, but if you continue to say this you are completely out of step with the reality of even Silver League LOL. That is patently false because I've hit plat with using only Tier 2.5 runes on my smurf. Heck I can probably even do it using only one runepage as long as I play only very specific champions. Is your main also in Plat 5? Because that's really what it boils down to. it doesn't matter what his main account is. many people have proven over and over that runes don't have a significant impact on the ladder experience. when someone else does something with limited or even no runes, the correct mindset to have is not "oh wow they are clearly better than me so i could never do that" instead it is -how did they do it? -how can i replicate their success? i'm betting it has nothing to do with which runes he used and everything to do with how he played the game. there exists similar issues in other games as well. in starcraft, low ranked players fuss over the specific build order optimizations or the race/matchup that they think cost them the game when in reality they had 3k mineral/gas unspent in the bank and could've rolled over the other guy with proper macro. or in hearthstone people who bitch about not having certain situational legendaries for some of their decks because they are too expensive and not having them prevents them from ranking up. what actually happens is they are too absorbed in the cards they either don't have or the specific tech choices they make that they are completely oblivious to the fact that they misplayed or didn't see lethal or mulliganed completely wrong and it cost them the game. Actually, thats the whole point. If his main is D5 and he "managed" to get plat with t2.5 runes it means good runes are worth a tier of skill. The point is not whether Bjergson can get challenger with 3 rune pages, the point is whether he would go into a match against Febiven with 3 rune pages. Because every person you face is your own Febiven. bullshit. how do you know it wasn't simply a case of playing enough games to get back to diamond? even top challenger players get their fresh smurfs back to top challenger in a matter of weeks. look at pobelter, xj9, jiji, chauster, wild turtle, doublelift, faker, rush, apdo etc runes are definitely not worth a tier of play. that is the most absurd statement i've ever heard regarding this game and i've been around for over 6 years. how do elo boosters manage to take accounts without highly optimized runes take accounts to whatever bracket they want at 90%+ win rates? it certainly isn't their runes and to imply otherwise is a joke my smurf is level 21 right now and i'm totally confident that i could get it to diamond this year with a single rune page of ad/ad/armor/mr costing me ~3200 ip
I think that was the original point that was trying to be made. Generic AD and a generic AP pages should be free, the rest of the runes left as is.
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On January 22 2016 03:56 Ethelis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 03:39 Frolossus wrote:On January 22 2016 03:37 cLutZ wrote:On January 22 2016 02:20 Frolossus wrote:On January 22 2016 02:18 cLutZ wrote:On January 21 2016 14:46 KissBlade wrote:On January 21 2016 13:41 cLutZ wrote:
That hasn't been acceptable since they did the rune rework. Yes, the 2-5 basic runepages argument was fairly valid in S1-3, but if you continue to say this you are completely out of step with the reality of even Silver League LOL. That is patently false because I've hit plat with using only Tier 2.5 runes on my smurf. Heck I can probably even do it using only one runepage as long as I play only very specific champions. Is your main also in Plat 5? Because that's really what it boils down to. it doesn't matter what his main account is. many people have proven over and over that runes don't have a significant impact on the ladder experience. when someone else does something with limited or even no runes, the correct mindset to have is not "oh wow they are clearly better than me so i could never do that" instead it is -how did they do it? -how can i replicate their success? i'm betting it has nothing to do with which runes he used and everything to do with how he played the game. there exists similar issues in other games as well. in starcraft, low ranked players fuss over the specific build order optimizations or the race/matchup that they think cost them the game when in reality they had 3k mineral/gas unspent in the bank and could've rolled over the other guy with proper macro. or in hearthstone people who bitch about not having certain situational legendaries for some of their decks because they are too expensive and not having them prevents them from ranking up. what actually happens is they are too absorbed in the cards they either don't have or the specific tech choices they make that they are completely oblivious to the fact that they misplayed or didn't see lethal or mulliganed completely wrong and it cost them the game. Actually, thats the whole point. If his main is D5 and he "managed" to get plat with t2.5 runes it means good runes are worth a tier of skill. The point is not whether Bjergson can get challenger with 3 rune pages, the point is whether he would go into a match against Febiven with 3 rune pages. Because every person you face is your own Febiven. bullshit. how do you know it wasn't simply a case of playing enough games to get back to diamond? even top challenger players get their fresh smurfs back to top challenger in a matter of weeks. look at pobelter, xj9, jiji, chauster, wild turtle, doublelift, faker, rush, apdo etc runes are definitely not worth a tier of play. that is the most absurd statement i've ever heard regarding this game and i've been around for over 6 years. how do elo boosters manage to take accounts without highly optimized runes take accounts to whatever bracket they want at 90%+ win rates? it certainly isn't their runes and to imply otherwise is a joke my smurf is level 21 right now and i'm totally confident that i could get it to diamond this year with a single rune page of ad/ad/armor/mr costing me ~3200 ip I think that was the original point that was trying to be made. Generic AD and a generic AP pages should be free, the rest of the runes left as is.
because free runes encourages people to make more smurfs which is bad.
they are extremely affordable as is and do not need to be given for free
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On January 22 2016 03:58 Frolossus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 03:56 Ethelis wrote:On January 22 2016 03:39 Frolossus wrote:On January 22 2016 03:37 cLutZ wrote:On January 22 2016 02:20 Frolossus wrote:On January 22 2016 02:18 cLutZ wrote:On January 21 2016 14:46 KissBlade wrote:On January 21 2016 13:41 cLutZ wrote:
That hasn't been acceptable since they did the rune rework. Yes, the 2-5 basic runepages argument was fairly valid in S1-3, but if you continue to say this you are completely out of step with the reality of even Silver League LOL. That is patently false because I've hit plat with using only Tier 2.5 runes on my smurf. Heck I can probably even do it using only one runepage as long as I play only very specific champions. Is your main also in Plat 5? Because that's really what it boils down to. it doesn't matter what his main account is. many people have proven over and over that runes don't have a significant impact on the ladder experience. when someone else does something with limited or even no runes, the correct mindset to have is not "oh wow they are clearly better than me so i could never do that" instead it is -how did they do it? -how can i replicate their success? i'm betting it has nothing to do with which runes he used and everything to do with how he played the game. there exists similar issues in other games as well. in starcraft, low ranked players fuss over the specific build order optimizations or the race/matchup that they think cost them the game when in reality they had 3k mineral/gas unspent in the bank and could've rolled over the other guy with proper macro. or in hearthstone people who bitch about not having certain situational legendaries for some of their decks because they are too expensive and not having them prevents them from ranking up. what actually happens is they are too absorbed in the cards they either don't have or the specific tech choices they make that they are completely oblivious to the fact that they misplayed or didn't see lethal or mulliganed completely wrong and it cost them the game. Actually, thats the whole point. If his main is D5 and he "managed" to get plat with t2.5 runes it means good runes are worth a tier of skill. The point is not whether Bjergson can get challenger with 3 rune pages, the point is whether he would go into a match against Febiven with 3 rune pages. Because every person you face is your own Febiven. bullshit. how do you know it wasn't simply a case of playing enough games to get back to diamond? even top challenger players get their fresh smurfs back to top challenger in a matter of weeks. look at pobelter, xj9, jiji, chauster, wild turtle, doublelift, faker, rush, apdo etc runes are definitely not worth a tier of play. that is the most absurd statement i've ever heard regarding this game and i've been around for over 6 years. how do elo boosters manage to take accounts without highly optimized runes take accounts to whatever bracket they want at 90%+ win rates? it certainly isn't their runes and to imply otherwise is a joke my smurf is level 21 right now and i'm totally confident that i could get it to diamond this year with a single rune page of ad/ad/armor/mr costing me ~3200 ip I think that was the original point that was trying to be made. Generic AD and a generic AP pages should be free, the rest of the runes left as is. because free runes encourages people to make more smurfs which is bad. they are extremely affordable as is and do not need to be given for free
I think if you would've started with that comment instead of saying that people overestimate runes (which is an unpopular opinion) this thread wouldn't have devolved into this circus that's been going on for the past few pages.
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is the new queue mode broken again or something
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Wtf is this shit o.o
I was gold 5, won 7 and lost 3 in placements and now I am bronze 1???????
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they said you're supposed to be one tier below where you were after reset.
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On January 22 2016 10:20 SoSexy wrote:
Wtf is this shit o.o
I was gold 5, won 7 and lost 3 in placements and now I am bronze 1???????
If you duo'd with anyone lower than you that would explain it and would be working as intended. If not then Riot pls...
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With the reset, pretty much everybody is going to be about an entire tier lower. This is the reset working as intended. If you deserve your rank, you'll hit it again.
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United States11393 Posts
Also, if you lose your first few games then it has a pretty big impact too.
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Bearded Elder29905 Posts
Last season I've ended up Plat4, I've played my placements and went 3-7 and I was placed in Bronze I, so ;-)
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Yeah 7-3 going Gold 5 to Bronze 1 sounds pretty normal to me.
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They don't just reduce your Elo, they compress it, so everyone goes toward around Silver II-IV (not sure what 1250 aligns with currently), then you make your placements, so Bronze V who go 5-5 should end up higher than before the compression for example.
If you can actually end lower than Silver III with a positive record when you were above that before the compression, then either something's wrong, or Riot have modified their compression algorithm to actually not compress anymore.
But I don't see why they'd do a straight reduction. There's Elo inflation overall so it doesn't really deal with it, and it'd mean that Master/Challenger people can start in Diamond rather than Plat this time around?
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I feel like they compressed the ELOs way more than in previous season starts. Usually you'd drop about 3-5 divisions if you'd go 5-5 or better, but now it's all over the place.
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No, no, the thing with Elo compression is that you take a base Elo and move yours to the median point between both.
If you compress harder you move yours closer to the base point, but you never go above or below it (depending on whether you were below/above to begin with).
If you can end up in Bronze with a positive record and without being lower in Bronze than that last season to begin with, then it's not compression. They straight-up removed Elo from everyone (or moved the base lower than Bronze I and compressed like mad).
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On January 22 2016 20:08 Alaric wrote:
No, no, the thing with Elo compression is that you take a base Elo and move yours to the median point between both.
If you compress harder you move yours closer to the base point, but you never go above or below it (depending on whether you were below/above to begin with).
If you can end up in Bronze with a positive record and without being lower in Bronze than that last season to begin with, then it's not compression. They straight-up removed Elo from everyone (or moved the base lower than Bronze I and compressed like mad).
Yeah, that last part is what I meant. Honestly I think they compressed everything to Bronze 5 or something, because otherwise these results don't really make sense.
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The only thing they achieved is reducing my will to play
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They compress everything to whatever 1200 elo is, which is usually right around Bronze 1 / Silver 5.
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Which seems a bit dumb: why not just make a full reset in that case? Sure it's going to be chaotic, but so would shoving everyone between Bronze II and Gold I be.
^ it's not, Ketara, 1250 was the value used previously and it's somewhere around Silver III. Even if it was just compressed, how can a Gold plyer go positive in placements and up below the center point? They did something else.
Can't say I'm excited by Riot's "mage update." They want to make immobile mages more unique, so they choose... Brand, Cassiopeia, Vel'Koz, Malzahar, Zyra, Vladimir.
Considering how they're all pretty diverse to begin with (with maybe Vel'Koz and Brand (if you ignore his passive) less so), the "unique" excuse doesn't really hold up. But since they explained they want them to be ""distinct, cohesive and healthy", you can get a truer picture behind it:
- Zyra was an attempt at what they did with Azir (zone control relying on "pets" and dps via peudo-auto-attacks) and so her plants' niche is already taken by a more popular (including internally) champion, so they have to find her something else
- they screwed up with Cassiopeia's rework and some devs stated that they want to redo a pass on her to make her a "poison mage" again
- Brand's strong atm and a bit binary in his balance levers, so they want to change him a bit so they can nerf him
- Vladimir's a design mess and it's an opportunity to fix it, kinda like Brand (but with less nerfing, and more healthier design)
- Malzahar is strong in soloQ but unpopular, and same it's probably a way to nerf him (he's already pretty distinct from the others)
- Vel'Koz... well, 0K, he feels kinda generic. His 3-hit passive combined with true damage and Riot's hate for distinctive power curve (which his passive and base damage in general emphasises) kinda forced that, though.
And more importantly there's that damn "cohesive" word in there. Considering some of the early designs (Orianna's simple elegance, Singed's unusual mechanics, Ezreal as a caster/marksman hybrid, etc.) are things that wouldn't see the light of day (meanwhile, dealing with Caitlyn's AS, Jhin's passive, how they mold Graves as a caster, etc.), I don't have much faith in Riot to not screw their "core thematics" in the name of what they officially perceive the champions to be so they can push their gameplay decisions.
I mean, if they're going to trash a champion, they don't need that excuse and it'll happen anyway. But it's the hypocrisy of the process and PR they usually do around it that annoys me.
On the plus side we can always hope for Cassiopeia to get closer to what she was. On the minus, that's likely RIP Brand. ;_;7
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On January 22 2016 20:16 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2016 20:08 Alaric wrote:
No, no, the thing with Elo compression is that you take a base Elo and move yours to the median point between both.
If you compress harder you move yours closer to the base point, but you never go above or below it (depending on whether you were below/above to begin with).
If you can end up in Bronze with a positive record and without being lower in Bronze than that last season to begin with, then it's not compression. They straight-up removed Elo from everyone (or moved the base lower than Bronze I and compressed like mad). Yeah, that last part is what I meant. Honestly I think they compressed everything to Bronze 5 or something, because otherwise these results don't really make sense.
First few games are more important too Aren't they?
If you go 3-7, there's a big difference between losing 7 then winning 3, and winning 3 then losing 7. (Or at least there was last season.)
Dropping from gold5 to bronze1 seems pretty plausible anyway because you probably had mid silver mmr, just not low enough to demote yet.
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EPT
