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On December 26 2015 06:45 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2015 06:45 Zato-1 wrote:On December 26 2015 05:10 Fildun wrote:
Turns out CLG chose Stixxay over Forgiven. Truly counter logic. Kicking Liftlift for being toxic and then picking up Forgiven instead, who is infamously toxic, would be even more counter logic. What does toxic even mean? You could half the Ember salaries and they would still be way more than fair.
Toxic players are those who negatively impact the performance of their teammates, as well as general team coordination and shotcalling. They usually do this by flaming teammates instead of giving constructive criticism, blaming others for their own mistakes and being unwilling to take advice, not playing nice with them on teamfights and doing their own thing because they don't trust their teammates to do their part, and creating a negative team environment where other players will want to flame you back or stay quiet because they feel they can't work with you, as opposed to trying to coordinate which objectives to go for, whether to go as a team or split-push, going in as a team to ward and create vision, etc. aka play as a team.
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On December 26 2015 06:45 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2015 06:45 Zato-1 wrote:On December 26 2015 05:10 Fildun wrote:
Turns out CLG chose Stixxay over Forgiven. Truly counter logic. Kicking Liftlift for being toxic and then picking up Forgiven instead, who is infamously toxic, would be even more counter logic. What does toxic even mean? You could half the Ember salaries and they would still be way more than fair.
30k for a 60+ hour a week job sounds pretty uninteresting
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You know nothing about Forg1ven or Doublelift's attitude on their teams other than hearsay. They might not be the best and most upbeat people, but that description is going a bit far.
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On December 26 2015 06:58 Ansibled wrote:
You know nothing about Forg1ven or Doublelift's attitude on their teams other than hearsay.
I mean it's a lot of hearsay from a lot of different types of players (in doublelift's case)
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There's probably competition from other teams looking to add NA players. Competition against the prospect of full time streaming. Competition against choosing to go to university instead.
It's about offering just enough to get the guy you want to sign.
Now on the other hand, what does Svenskeren have to bring to negotiations to extract a higher salary. The H2k offer? What other options does he have in his life to use as leverage?
On TSM's side, they have an import slot (obviously). TSM can, if they really have to, look elsewhere. And TSM is a desirable landing spot.
Supply and demand. Leverage. There's more to this than just 'is the guy's skills worth this much?'. There's the (NBA) example of Tristan Thompson this year. He's a role player who snagged a 5 year/82 million dollar contract to backup a star player. How did this guy who comes off of the bench get such a contract? According to salary cap rules, his team, the Cavaliers, was only able to offer minimum contracts to other free agents, and the available free agents who would take the minimum did not fulfill the niche that Thompson would. This is a guy who would never be able to get anywhere near such a contract on the free market based solely on his skills. But the Cavs' only option was basically him or minimum level scrub. So Thompson was able to basically go 'It's me or nothing; I can just hold out until I get what I want'.
Edit: Oh, for a reverse example where supply is way higher than demand, there's Korea with its godly infrastructure that can pluck people from SoloQ to continually replenish its winning ways.
Funny thing about being able to trust in your process so much. It turns out that you're not under all that much pressure, investment-wise, to get what you want. One guy leaves or turns down your offer, just go for the next in line. There's just not a lot to force you to up your offers, especially when a fair amount of the KeSPA companies apparently are just interested in the advertising factor.
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On December 26 2015 06:53 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2015 06:52 Cyraknoss wrote:On December 26 2015 06:25 dsyxelic wrote:On December 26 2015 06:05 wei2coolman wrote:On December 26 2015 05:54 orzeu wrote:Than an NA team will kiss the Summoner's Cup within two years. How delusional these people are? What are they supposed to say? "We hope we don't end up dead last in CS." That's like standard PR move, of course they have to hype up their team and goals. It's like complaining about McDonalds advertising their food as tasty. I think them simply saying 'we will win CS' is enough hyping up pretty large leap to go from that -> NA will win worlds within 2 years Done right NA winning worlds in 2 years is not that big a leap, it's a pretty realistic timeline IF you do everything right. I think they're missing a few key parts right now if they want their team to be NA's champion 2 years from now, but 2 years doing everything right is hardly unreasonable. If you nuke Korea then you maybe have a chance.
Considering NK and SK tensions, this might not be an unreasonable assumption. hue.
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On December 26 2015 07:00 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2015 06:58 Ansibled wrote:
You know nothing about Forg1ven or Doublelift's attitude on their teams other than hearsay. I mean it's a lot of hearsay from a lot of different types of players (in doublelift's case)
Also cause iirc most complaints about forgiven was solo toxicity not team environment toxicity, not picking up forgiven for stixxay seems dumb if your only reason is he said some dumb shit in soloq
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there's no way that ember is gonna last as an org LOL. $60k+ per year for CHALLENGER players. they probably wont even make it into the LCS, how is this ever going to be worth it for Ember? they just gonna be a charity or something?
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On December 26 2015 06:58 Ansibled wrote:
You know nothing about Forg1ven or Doublelift's attitude on their teams other than hearsay. They might not be the best and most upbeat people, but that description is going a bit far.
You asked about toxic players in general; I explained what a toxic player is generally understood to be.
About DL specifically: Pretty much everyone agrees DL was toxic, at least originally. If you've seen the relevant videos and read the explanations given about his departure from CLG, from Aphromoo's "either he leaves or I do" ultimatum to Hotshot being exasperated with him to DL himself conceding that even though he's improved, there's a bad history of his behavior within the team that colors everything he says and does. They all agreed that DLift was a bad teammate and generally toxic for a long time, the disagreement came over whether he had improved and how much (with Hotshot saying that he hadn't improved one bit and DLift saying that he really had gotten better).
(note that I am NOT endorsing CLG's decision to kick DL, that was moronic, just pointing out that DL does seem to have been toxic to some degree)
When it comes to Forgiven, the most telling pieces of evidence are his writeups from when he's been punished by Riot for his behavior:
http://2015.na.lolesports.com/articles/competitive-ruling-konstantinos-‘forg1ven’-tzortziou
http://forums.euw.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=1679917&page=1
Forgiven is an exceptionally talented player, and yet top teams don't want him and mid-tier teams that pick him up don't have a great performance and players on those teams complain about him being toxic (this last part is just memory speaking). It's far from a complete picture, but he definitely has a reputation for being toxic, and at the very least killed Gambit's hopes of doing well in 2015 Summer Playoffs and going to Worlds by getting himself banned for said playoffs.
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Depending on the new relegation structure echo fox and tip are very beatable
RE:Forgiven, i don't put a lot of atock in the riot bans. From ehat I've been told having a bad rep on euw is enough to get you reported every game. That and most people's 5s attitude varies wildly from their solo attitude.
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On December 26 2015 07:22 Slusher wrote:
Depending on the new relegation structure echo fox and tip are very beatable
Did TiP announce anything yet?
Riot killed Gambit, not Forg1ven.
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On December 26 2015 07:23 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2015 07:22 Slusher wrote:
Depending on the new relegation structure echo fox and tip are very beatable Did TiP announce anything yet? Riot killed Gambit, not Forg1ven.
We don't know their roster no but what could they possibly fill their 3/5 with
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On December 26 2015 07:27 Slusher wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2015 07:23 Ansibled wrote:On December 26 2015 07:22 Slusher wrote:
Depending on the new relegation structure echo fox and tip are very beatable Did TiP announce anything yet? Riot killed Gambit, not Forg1ven. We don't know their roster no but what could they possibly fill their 3/5 with
they dont need 3/5
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On December 26 2015 07:22 Slusher wrote:RE:Forgiven, i don't put a lot of atock in the riot bans. From ehat I've been told having a bad rep on euw is enough to get you reported every game. That and most people's 5s attitude varies wildly from their solo attitude.
Yeah his behavior isn't that unusual for EUW soloq. His teammates also never spoke about toxicity in a team environment, so I personally think that the Forgiven toxicity thing is way overblown.
Also those salaries are less than 5 point 5 fucking k per month.
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On December 26 2015 07:23 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2015 07:22 Slusher wrote:
Depending on the new relegation structure echo fox and tip are very beatable Did TiP announce anything yet? Riot killed Gambit, not Forg1ven.
And thank god for that, its literally just poor management 101.
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On December 26 2015 07:36 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2015 07:22 Slusher wrote:RE:Forgiven, i don't put a lot of atock in the riot bans. From ehat I've been told having a bad rep on euw is enough to get you reported every game. That and most people's 5s attitude varies wildly from their solo attitude. Yeah his behavior isn't that unusual for EUW soloq. His teammates also never spoke about toxicity in a team environment, so I personally think that the Forgiven toxicity thing is way overblown. Also those salaries are less than 5 point 5 fucking k per month.
When the statistics say that you're in the 1.5% most toxic players in your region, I do think that's unusual even for EUW soloq.
On December 26 2015 07:23 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2015 07:22 Slusher wrote:
Depending on the new relegation structure echo fox and tip are very beatable Did TiP announce anything yet? Riot killed Gambit, not Forg1ven.
And what does that tell you when you're a prospective next contractor for Forg1ven's talents, hm?
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On December 26 2015 07:39 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2015 07:36 Fildun wrote:On December 26 2015 07:22 Slusher wrote:RE:Forgiven, i don't put a lot of atock in the riot bans. From ehat I've been told having a bad rep on euw is enough to get you reported every game. That and most people's 5s attitude varies wildly from their solo attitude. Yeah his behavior isn't that unusual for EUW soloq. His teammates also never spoke about toxicity in a team environment, so I personally think that the Forgiven toxicity thing is way overblown. Also those salaries are less than 5 point 5 fucking k per month. When the statistics say that you're in the 1.5% most toxic players in your region, I do think that's unusual even for EUW soloq. Show nested quote +On December 26 2015 07:23 Ansibled wrote:On December 26 2015 07:22 Slusher wrote:
Depending on the new relegation structure echo fox and tip are very beatable Did TiP announce anything yet? Riot killed Gambit, not Forg1ven. And what does that tell you when you're a prospective next contractor for Forg1ven's talents, hm?
When the statistics includes the entire playerbase it's pretty worthless and disingenuous. The bottom 50% can be people who play 1 ARAM a day?
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For what it's worth nukeduck cited weird, uncooperative behaviour from Forgiven and also he implied that Alex Ich of all people didn't want him in the team.
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On December 26 2015 07:41 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2015 07:39 Zato-1 wrote:On December 26 2015 07:36 Fildun wrote:On December 26 2015 07:22 Slusher wrote:RE:Forgiven, i don't put a lot of atock in the riot bans. From ehat I've been told having a bad rep on euw is enough to get you reported every game. That and most people's 5s attitude varies wildly from their solo attitude. Yeah his behavior isn't that unusual for EUW soloq. His teammates also never spoke about toxicity in a team environment, so I personally think that the Forgiven toxicity thing is way overblown. Also those salaries are less than 5 point 5 fucking k per month. When the statistics say that you're in the 1.5% most toxic players in your region, I do think that's unusual even for EUW soloq. On December 26 2015 07:23 Ansibled wrote:On December 26 2015 07:22 Slusher wrote:
Depending on the new relegation structure echo fox and tip are very beatable Did TiP announce anything yet? Riot killed Gambit, not Forg1ven. And what does that tell you when you're a prospective next contractor for Forg1ven's talents, hm? When the statistics includes the entire playerbase it's pretty worthless and disingenuous. The bottom 50% can be people who play 1 ARAM a day?
Reading the most recent ruling, the figures they quote are:
In the last 30 days, he was reported in over 70% of his games, with 92% of reports received being for verbal abuse, offensive language and negative attitude - this put him in the top 1.5% of toxic players during this time period.
From what I understand, 90% of LoL games or so are played on Summoner's Rift (Dominion, Howling Abyss and Twisted Treeline are very tiny), so sure, you can discount the bottom 10% as playing on game modes where no one gets reported. But this isn't about Forgiven being in the top 90% most toxic players, or being in the top 50%, or even top 10%; he's in the top 1.5%, and it's not because he spams a lot of games. He was reported in over 70% of his games, which is telling whether you play 4 games a day or 40.
When you're reported for verbal abuse in 70% of your games and then Riot goes in and checks the chat logs and confirms that the reports are accurate, I don't see how you can conclude that Forgiven isn't toxic, at least in soloqueue.
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On December 26 2015 07:52 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 26 2015 07:41 Ansibled wrote:On December 26 2015 07:39 Zato-1 wrote:On December 26 2015 07:36 Fildun wrote:On December 26 2015 07:22 Slusher wrote:RE:Forgiven, i don't put a lot of atock in the riot bans. From ehat I've been told having a bad rep on euw is enough to get you reported every game. That and most people's 5s attitude varies wildly from their solo attitude. Yeah his behavior isn't that unusual for EUW soloq. His teammates also never spoke about toxicity in a team environment, so I personally think that the Forgiven toxicity thing is way overblown. Also those salaries are less than 5 point 5 fucking k per month. When the statistics say that you're in the 1.5% most toxic players in your region, I do think that's unusual even for EUW soloq. On December 26 2015 07:23 Ansibled wrote:On December 26 2015 07:22 Slusher wrote:
Depending on the new relegation structure echo fox and tip are very beatable Did TiP announce anything yet? Riot killed Gambit, not Forg1ven. And what does that tell you when you're a prospective next contractor for Forg1ven's talents, hm? When the statistics includes the entire playerbase it's pretty worthless and disingenuous. The bottom 50% can be people who play 1 ARAM a day? Reading the most recent ruling, the figures they quote are: Show nested quote +In the last 30 days, he was reported in over 70% of his games, with 92% of reports received being for verbal abuse, offensive language and negative attitude - this put him in the top 1.5% of toxic players during this time period. From what I understand, 90% of LoL games or so are played on Summoner's Rift (Dominion, Howling Abyss and Twisted Treeline are very tiny), so sure, you can discount the bottom 10% as playing on game modes where no one gets reported. But this isn't about Forgiven being in the top 90% most toxic players, or being in the top 50%, or even top 10%; he's in the top 1.5%, and it's not because he spams a lot of games. He was reported in over 70% of his games, which is telling whether you play 4 games a day or 40. When you're reported for verbal abuse in 70% of your games and then Riot goes in and checks the chat logs and confirms that the reports are accurate, I don't see how you can conclude that Forgiven isn't toxic, at least in soloqueue.
Being reported for verbal abuse in 70% of your games means absolutely nothing in high ELO EUW soloq.
I also have 0 faith in Riot confirming whether the chat reports are accurate, so I'm not concluding anything.
Also the ARAM community is really big actually, that's a lot more than 10% probably.
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EPT
