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United States37500 Posts
Welcome to this patch's General Discussion thread for the League of Legends subforum. This thread is for discussion around League of Legends. Free feel to talk about anything LoL related here that does not already have its own thread. While posting standards tend to be rather lax in this thread, pointless spam will not be tolerated.
Gameplay discussion should go in the Patch Discussion thread.
Non-League of Legends dicsussion should go in the LiquidLegends Lounge.
Certain topics are blacklisted from LoL General Discussion and they include:- "Elo hell"
- The Tribunal
- Bans, either from TL.net or LoL
Additionally, the TL LoL Ten Commandments are available for you to reference if you have any questions about this subforum.
Use the LoL Strategy subforum if you have game or champion specific questions. Lastly, confine QQing and bragging to their respective threads.
There is no new champion this patch.
Patch 5.18: Live on Sept. 16th, 2015
+ Show Spoiler [Previous GD Threads & Patch Notes] +
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"The system can detect intentional feeding"
Challenge accepted boys
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RIP Dunkey, he left us one patch too soon.
Bit concerned about Morgana being able to spam out more bindings. If Zyra's plant AI is a big upgrade, I might just dust off the cheesy 20MPen page. =]
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So they revealed their next champion: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/page/champion-reveal-kindred-eternal-hunters
So... If I'm reading this right, the champ gets bonus AD for every kill or assist on the marked champion, the Q is a dash and helps clear waves, W is what lets you sustain in lane and lets you spam Q in a particular area, E is how they duel a target, and R is a mix of Undying Rage and Soraka Heal for EVERYTHING in the radius. Including dragon and baron.
And they envision this champion as a ranged jungler? No seriously, they are trying to make an ADC jungler. I don't see why you don't just play this in lane and harass the ever living shit out of your lane opponent duo. Unless its (his? her?) range is shit (like Vayne or Quinn bad) and it basically forces it to be in the jungle to get farmed up. The slow being a point and click thing is how it'd be able to even possibly succeed at a gank, but I don't think that's enough.
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Eh. The real problem is that "game theory"* almost certainly dictates mirrored setups. So if you have a few champions which do not fit the meta then you're not stable, one of the setups will be superior and so be 100% pick/ban or not played. If you have a lot of champions that "do not fit the meta" and are viable then the meta shifts.
Eh, I think DotA2 stands as a counter-example to this, though I don't follow that scene closely.
LoL isn't DotA2, but if Riot keeps pushing in this direction I think they'll be able to overcome the factors that have enforced the current setup for so many years.
On September 16 2015 04:47 Kinie wrote:So they revealed their next champion: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/page/champion-reveal-kindred-eternal-huntersSo... If I'm reading this right, the champ gets bonus AD for every kill or assist on the marked champion, the Q is a dash and helps clear waves, W is what lets you sustain in lane and lets you spam Q in a particular area, E is how they duel a target, and R is a mix of Undying Rage and Soraka Heal for EVERYTHING in the radius. Including dragon and baron. And they envision this champion as a ranged jungler? No seriously, they are trying to make an ADC jungler. I don't see why you don't just play this in lane and harass the ever living shit out of your lane opponent duo. Unless its (his? her?) range is shit (like Vayne or Quinn bad) and it basically forces it to be in the jungle to get farmed up. The slow being a point and click thing is how it'd be able to even possibly succeed at a gank, but I don't think that's enough.
Large Monsters in the jungle also get marked, so you can probably stack the passive damage faster by jungling unless you're in Bronze. Without seeing the numbers it's hard to tell, but you probably lose a lot of stacks if you lane and potentially gimp your mid/late game damage.
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On September 16 2015 04:47 Kinie wrote:So they revealed their next champion: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/page/champion-reveal-kindred-eternal-huntersSo... If I'm reading this right, the champ gets bonus AD for every kill or assist on the marked champion, the Q is a dash and helps clear waves, W is what lets you sustain in lane and lets you spam Q in a particular area, E is how they duel a target, and R is a mix of Undying Rage and Soraka Heal for EVERYTHING in the radius. Including dragon and baron. And they envision this champion as a ranged jungler? No seriously, they are trying to make an ADC jungler. I don't see why you don't just play this in lane and harass the ever living shit out of your lane opponent duo. Unless its (his? her?) range is shit (like Vayne or Quinn bad) and it basically forces it to be in the jungle to get farmed up. The slow being a point and click thing is how it'd be able to even possibly succeed at a gank, but I don't think that's enough.
Someone in the last thread estimated the champ's range as 300-400.
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Bearded Elder29905 Posts
This ult is pretty fucking neat :o
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I think that estimate is pretty far off. Based on the W video Kindred's range is probably at least 500.
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On September 16 2015 04:52 lilwisper wrote:
Someone in the last thread estimated the champ's range as 300-400.
So about the same range as Gnar then?
Yeah, that 'll probably force it (him? her? them?) into the jungle and rely solely on the E + Chilling Smite for ganks, as those will be the only way for force a flash or succeed in the gank. If the E was like Braum Q where after the three hits it stunned (or snared) them for a half-second or so instead of the % max HP damage, then I think it'd work better.
On September 16 2015 04:56 Seuss wrote:
I think that estimate is pretty far off. Based on the W video Kindred's range is probably at least 500.
I watched the W video a couple more times. Before they use the W active the range is probably 300-400, but when they activate the W and AA the top target it looked to be 450-500 range. And the W doesn't give increased range...
It might be it's natural AA range is 450-500, which means they'd work just fine in the bot lane as an ADC if the passive can be controlled (which I don't think it can be based upon the description of it).
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
#LuluDidNothingWrong
Overall a fairly sensible patch since it's just before Worlds so it doesn't shake everything up too much but just has some minor tweaking that makes sense. The Kalista skin isn't as good as her Blood Moon one though.
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On September 16 2015 04:50 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +Eh. The real problem is that "game theory"* almost certainly dictates mirrored setups. So if you have a few champions which do not fit the meta then you're not stable, one of the setups will be superior and so be 100% pick/ban or not played. If you have a lot of champions that "do not fit the meta" and are viable then the meta shifts. Eh, I think DotA2 stands as a counter-example to this, though I don't follow that scene closely. LoL isn't DotA2, but if Riot keeps pushing in this direction I think they'll be able to overcome the factors that have enforced the current setup for so many years. Show nested quote +On September 16 2015 04:47 Kinie wrote:So they revealed their next champion: http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/page/champion-reveal-kindred-eternal-huntersSo... If I'm reading this right, the champ gets bonus AD for every kill or assist on the marked champion, the Q is a dash and helps clear waves, W is what lets you sustain in lane and lets you spam Q in a particular area, E is how they duel a target, and R is a mix of Undying Rage and Soraka Heal for EVERYTHING in the radius. Including dragon and baron. And they envision this champion as a ranged jungler? No seriously, they are trying to make an ADC jungler. I don't see why you don't just play this in lane and harass the ever living shit out of your lane opponent duo. Unless its (his? her?) range is shit (like Vayne or Quinn bad) and it basically forces it to be in the jungle to get farmed up. The slow being a point and click thing is how it'd be able to even possibly succeed at a gank, but I don't think that's enough. Large Monsters in the jungle also get marked, so you can probably stack the passive damage faster by jungling unless you're in Bronze. Without seeing the numbers it's hard to tell, but you probably lose a lot of stacks if you lane and potentially gimp your mid/late game damage.
Dota2 has just a strict metagame as Lol. The dilineators simply are not in hero build types but rather farm priority and ability layering.
Edit: now that I look more closely at her range I think I was wrong. It looks over 500
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On September 16 2015 04:57 Kinie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2015 04:52 lilwisper wrote:
Someone in the last thread estimated the champ's range as 300-400.
So about the same range as Gnar then? Yeah, that 'll probably force it (him? her? them?) into the jungle and rely solely on the E + Chilling Smite for ganks, as those will be the only way for force a flash or succeed in the gank. If the E was like Braum Q where after the three hits it stunned (or snared) them for a half-second or so instead of the % max HP damage, then I think it'd work better. Show nested quote +On September 16 2015 04:56 Seuss wrote:
I think that estimate is pretty far off. Based on the W video Kindred's range is probably at least 500. I watched the W video a couple more times. Before they use the W active the range is probably 300-400, but when they activate the W and AA the top target it looked to be 450-500 range. And the W doesn't give increased range... It might be it's natural AA range is 450-500, which means they'd work just fine in the bot lane as an ADC if the passive can be controlled (which I don't think it can be based upon the description of it).
The issue as I see it is that you don't get stacks unless you kill/assist a marked target. At least professionally kill counts aren't going to be high enough to make that worthwhile. We need numbers to be sure, but odds are stacks are pretty relevant to kindred's damage and stacking them is much, much easier when jungling.
On September 16 2015 05:05 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2015 04:50 Seuss wrote:Eh. The real problem is that "game theory"* almost certainly dictates mirrored setups. So if you have a few champions which do not fit the meta then you're not stable, one of the setups will be superior and so be 100% pick/ban or not played. If you have a lot of champions that "do not fit the meta" and are viable then the meta shifts. Eh, I think DotA2 stands as a counter-example to this, though I don't follow that scene closely. LoL isn't DotA2, but if Riot keeps pushing in this direction I think they'll be able to overcome the factors that have enforced the current setup for so many years. Dota2 has just a strict metagame as Lol. The dilineators simply are not in hero build types but rather farm priority and ability layering.
Well I spoke from ignorance then. Alas.
Still, I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that we'll simply settle on a new standard. LoL is more complicated than the Prisoner's Dilemma, and it's not impossible for the game to reach an equilibrium where additional setups are viable/competitive without any one being utterly dominant. It might be harder and perhaps more volatile, but it's not like Riot doesn't already slam down tall pegs and radically rework previously slammed pegs.
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Morde not nerfed too much, basically if he was good enough for worlds before this patch, he probably still is. Here is hoping he'll see at least some group stage play lol.
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Taking a slow and measured approach to my favorite champion instead of tacking on the massive knock up that was on the PBE with plant AI improvements... good job Riot.
My guess is that they didn't realize how twitchy the plant AI was and how much of a buff it would be to her damage, we'll see how this pans out though, it's not like Zyra ever lacked in damage in support or mid.
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Does game theory also dictates that rock is the best move in rock paper scissors?
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DotA has a starker contrast between farming and supporting heroes (you get maybe 10-15% less gold as a jungler, and 25% less as a support, unless the games run pretty long, but in DotA it's closer to cores getting 4-5 times a support's net worth), however that doesn't change the fact that DotA has setups with and without junglers, duo lanes, tri lanes, etc.
The main difference that farm priority gives is regarding the greediness of a setup. In LoL your setup is too greedy when it doesn't have enough to carry it to the lategame, or when it lacks a frontline to protect its carries, or to the opposite when it lacks too much damage.
DotA lets you run Lina, Wraith King, Sven, etc. as supports or as core, and your setup is greedy when you need so much farm you're too busy farming to create space. In LoL whether you're a support-ish champ (Maokai) or a carry-ish champ (Riven), you'll get the same amount of farm, what you do with it dictates what your role is. In DotA you get triple the farm (and often double or even triple the levels) if you're a core compared to a support, because you can allocate a bigger % of the map's farm to a particular hero. You're greedy because you run too many heroes who want to farm.
That doesn't mean DotA isn't more volatile in that sense. LoL still has more variety than previously (mainly owning to lane swaps and how it shapes the picks, allowing an AD carry to lane alone against the enemy off laner, the support to become a roamer, etc.), but you still need a jungler, you still need a ranged aa-based physical damage dealer to siege in most cases, you're still better off running 3 "cores" whether they're tanks or damage dealers or whatever because if they're not taking that farm then noone will (big effect of how stacking jungle camps works in DotA: as long as they're getting stacked, it doesn't matter if noone's farming them, and later on a hero who roamed a lot and missed farm in lane can catch up by clearing stacks).
But DotA certainly isn't "locked" like Goumindong says it is.
On September 16 2015 05:46 Parametric wrote:
Taking a slow and measured approach to my favorite champion instead of tacking on the massive knock up that was on the PBE with plant AI improvements... good job Riot.
My guess is that they didn't realize how twitchy the plant AI was and how much of a buff it would be to her damage, we'll see how this pans out though, it's not like Zyra ever lacked in damage in support or mid.
Maybe they remembered Rumble, where it was obvious that his numbers were completely out of whack, and he didn't seem as strong as they implied because he was actually bugged.
Zyra's plants attack with 136 base damage and 0.8 AS at level 18, a single plant is going to outdamage most supports (that aren't Vel'Koz), some tanks (especially those with long cooldowns) and mages with stuff on cd, even without AP and before it gets buffed by her ult.
She can have 3 of them at a time (4 with max CDR iirc?), and has her own aa + spell damage on top of it.
Of course Zyra is bonkers! If you actually fix her the way people want her to be you have to shoot her numbers to keep her reasonable, that's not new but Zyra players didn't seem to realise it. 
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On September 16 2015 05:23 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2015 04:57 Kinie wrote:On September 16 2015 04:52 lilwisper wrote:
Someone in the last thread estimated the champ's range as 300-400.
So about the same range as Gnar then? Yeah, that 'll probably force it (him? her? them?) into the jungle and rely solely on the E + Chilling Smite for ganks, as those will be the only way for force a flash or succeed in the gank. If the E was like Braum Q where after the three hits it stunned (or snared) them for a half-second or so instead of the % max HP damage, then I think it'd work better. On September 16 2015 04:56 Seuss wrote:
I think that estimate is pretty far off. Based on the W video Kindred's range is probably at least 500. I watched the W video a couple more times. Before they use the W active the range is probably 300-400, but when they activate the W and AA the top target it looked to be 450-500 range. And the W doesn't give increased range... It might be it's natural AA range is 450-500, which means they'd work just fine in the bot lane as an ADC if the passive can be controlled (which I don't think it can be based upon the description of it). The issue as I see it is that you don't get stacks unless you kill/assist a marked target. At least professionally kill counts aren't going to be high enough to make that worthwhile. We need numbers to be sure, but odds are stacks are pretty relevant to kindred's damage and stacking them is much, much easier when jungling. Show nested quote +On September 16 2015 05:05 Goumindong wrote:On September 16 2015 04:50 Seuss wrote:Eh. The real problem is that "game theory"* almost certainly dictates mirrored setups. So if you have a few champions which do not fit the meta then you're not stable, one of the setups will be superior and so be 100% pick/ban or not played. If you have a lot of champions that "do not fit the meta" and are viable then the meta shifts. Eh, I think DotA2 stands as a counter-example to this, though I don't follow that scene closely. LoL isn't DotA2, but if Riot keeps pushing in this direction I think they'll be able to overcome the factors that have enforced the current setup for so many years. Dota2 has just a strict metagame as Lol. The dilineators simply are not in hero build types but rather farm priority and ability layering. Well I spoke from ignorance then. Alas. Still, I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that we'll simply settle on a new standard. LoL is more complicated than the Prisoner's Dilemma, and it's not impossible for the game to reach an equilibrium where additional setups are viable/competitive without any one being utterly dominant. It might be harder and perhaps more volatile, but it's not like Riot doesn't already slam down tall pegs and radically rework previously slammed pegs.
It's not a prisoners dilemma issue its a simultaneous two person game issue. Unless the game board is so symmetric to have different strategies viable on different sides then we should expect mirroring because the game is symmetric and simultaneous.
Dota 2: has a 1/2/3 - 4/5 meta. That is it has three primary laners who fulfill your your ad/ap/top equivalents. It has a support at position 5 and a jungler at position 4. Position 4 can be primarily a jungler or primarily a support. But in the end it's like League season 2 jungle meta where their primary job was to be a support with some more money. Because itemization is very different in dota who is your primary carry depends less on the type of champion and more on whether or not they can farm/how they scale with farm. But the concept of "farm dependent/level dependent" still holds in the same way that that distinction is the primary reason that ADs are bottom with the support and APs are mid alone.
The main difference is that in dota there is one long lane and two short lanes while in league there are two long lanes and that this long lane is asymmetric in dota. So you can put your 1 in the long lane or short lane and support him with 1 or 2 players. (Iirc the tendency is that if you're in the short lane you use 1 and then jungle on the blogger half primarily and if you use the long lane you use 2 with the jungler primarily supporting that lane) sometimes you also see 1s essentially solo but this is rare since if they're solo they should probably be your 2nd priority.
League has the same thing with carry tops and solo ADs and 2v1s and all that stuff; we have different classification and breakdowns because itemization works differently (in dota every type of champion gets both tank and damage from their primary ability type and every item gives some ability, if you're in a 1/2/3 position you will tend to build items which give your item type and if you're in a 4/5 you may not) but in the end it's not too functionally different. Supports build utility items and tend to have more team friendly abilities. Carries build damage (and/or tank) and tend to have more kill focused/selfish abilities.
Edit: farm priority is how it's listed because junglers can pull jungle monsters all the way to the lanes for their carries. And so just like season 2 where the mid lane would go and take wraiths/wolves to get hilariously huge you can allocate portions of the map to a particular player even if they can't necessarily get there to farm it themselves.
Alaric is wrong in suggesting that this isnt just as locked in as League is its just that the dilineations for what is locked in doesnt have a good translation to league. In league you have AD/AP heroes because AD/AP exist. But in dota there is only AD. And you get AD by by purchasing an item which has an ability (int/agi/str) which is the same as your type. The concept of an "AP carry" cannot exist in dota, just champions that can use farm/levels and are more selfish in their abilities than someone who would have a lower priority
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On September 16 2015 05:45 Slusher wrote:
Morde not nerfed too much, basically if he was good enough for worlds before this patch, he probably still is. Here is hoping he'll see at least some group stage play lol.
His sustain got nerfed, his damage was upped. Idk if that's the right way to go about it.
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On September 16 2015 04:57 MoonBear wrote:
#LuluDidNothingWrong
Overall a fairly sensible patch since it's just before Worlds so it doesn't shake everything up too much but just has some minor tweaking that makes sense. The Kalista skin isn't as good as her Blood Moon one though.
I agree. I do like the detailing on the spears that they added.
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Seems like Ez can now burst people significantly more, y/n?
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EPT
