|
On September 17 2015 05:04 TheHumanSensation wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 03:33 Frolossus wrote:
yeah the trick to making a ranged jungler happen is higher base armor and better innate sustain. as long as probably a low CD damage ability.
the revamped leash mechanics might help this issue a bit I'm actually not a fan of this approach. While it's probably fine to have some champs that work like this, and that isn't really the case yet (Fidd, Kayle, maybe Kindred), I think I'd personally prefer it if ranged champs had to rely on their range or finesse-ish tools (as opposed to tank&sustain) to jungle effectively (Malz/Zyra manage pets, Twitch ganks w/ red instead of farming, etc). This was sort of the case when you could wrap blue buff around the wall on one side of the map like how you can wrap red around for easy ranged kiting, but they took that out with the leash changes.
I can understand you a bit. For instance it would be nice if Heimer could be a good choice to jungle since he has the turrets and can boost regen with his passive.
|
On September 17 2015 05:04 TheHumanSensation wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 03:33 Frolossus wrote:
yeah the trick to making a ranged jungler happen is higher base armor and better innate sustain. as long as probably a low CD damage ability.
the revamped leash mechanics might help this issue a bit I'm actually not a fan of this approach. While it's probably fine to have some champs that work like this, and that isn't really the case yet (Fidd, Kayle, maybe Kindred), I think I'd personally prefer it if ranged champs had to rely on their range or finesse-ish tools (as opposed to tank&sustain) to jungle effectively (Malz/Zyra manage pets, Twitch ganks w/ red instead of farming, etc). This was sort of the case when you could wrap blue buff around the wall on one side of the map like how you can wrap red around for easy ranged kiting, but they took that out with the leash changes.
Its all only a problem because the "hard jungle" is a strange way of balancing the jungle. All the finesse you are talking about really doesn't change much when it comes down to it because the monsters have so much HP and many are ranged themselves. With the "hard jungle" any character that is a good jungler either is: A) Tanky with high base damages; or B) Specialized for jungle only (i.e + damage to monsters), because otherwise they would be OP.
|
On September 17 2015 06:05 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 05:04 TheHumanSensation wrote:On September 17 2015 03:33 Frolossus wrote:
yeah the trick to making a ranged jungler happen is higher base armor and better innate sustain. as long as probably a low CD damage ability.
the revamped leash mechanics might help this issue a bit I'm actually not a fan of this approach. While it's probably fine to have some champs that work like this, and that isn't really the case yet (Fidd, Kayle, maybe Kindred), I think I'd personally prefer it if ranged champs had to rely on their range or finesse-ish tools (as opposed to tank&sustain) to jungle effectively (Malz/Zyra manage pets, Twitch ganks w/ red instead of farming, etc). This was sort of the case when you could wrap blue buff around the wall on one side of the map like how you can wrap red around for easy ranged kiting, but they took that out with the leash changes. Its all only a problem because the "hard jungle" is a strange way of balancing the jungle. All the finesse you are talking about really doesn't change much when it comes down to it because the monsters have so much HP and many are ranged themselves. With the "hard jungle" any character that is a good jungler either is: A) Tanky with high base damages; or B) Specialized for jungle only (i.e + damage to monsters), because otherwise they would be OP.
Additionally, unless we neuter jungle gold there will be a farm bias in the jungle. So if you create an "easy jungle" in contrast to this hard jungle then champions who don't lane well and scale into lategame will be able to use the jungle as a "free lane". Which might be just as bad as the "hard jungle"
|
On September 17 2015 06:05 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 05:04 TheHumanSensation wrote:On September 17 2015 03:33 Frolossus wrote:
yeah the trick to making a ranged jungler happen is higher base armor and better innate sustain. as long as probably a low CD damage ability.
the revamped leash mechanics might help this issue a bit I'm actually not a fan of this approach. While it's probably fine to have some champs that work like this, and that isn't really the case yet (Fidd, Kayle, maybe Kindred), I think I'd personally prefer it if ranged champs had to rely on their range or finesse-ish tools (as opposed to tank&sustain) to jungle effectively (Malz/Zyra manage pets, Twitch ganks w/ red instead of farming, etc). This was sort of the case when you could wrap blue buff around the wall on one side of the map like how you can wrap red around for easy ranged kiting, but they took that out with the leash changes. Its all only a problem because the "hard jungle" is a strange way of balancing the jungle. All the finesse you are talking about really doesn't change much when it comes down to it because the monsters have so much HP and many are ranged themselves. With the "hard jungle" any character that is a good jungler either is: A) Tanky with high base damages; or B) Specialized for jungle only (i.e + damage to monsters), because otherwise they would be OP.
Well, I ran out of time so I cut my post a bit short, but I was going to add that I like that gromp is ranged to make that camp specifically really difficult to take if you're a jungler that relies on kiting to clear without dying. I think it's neat that a certain class/type of jungler just really struggles with that one, while said junglers would also have a disproportionately trivial time taking blue/red buffs. I guess I like the idea of the jungle not being uniformly difficult/accessible as an alternate to merely setting a required-stat-bar?
Obviously birds being the "AoE champs clear this easy" camp and rocks being the "Kiteable" camp hasn't worked out historically, though.
edit: to clarify this I'm not disagreeing with clutz, but to build on my post that he quoted, I think it's possible or maybe even ideal to have ranged champs that clear in ways that don't rely on tanky stats but that have other limits to compensate (such as not being able to clear gromp effectively)
|
On September 17 2015 06:28 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 06:05 cLutZ wrote:On September 17 2015 05:04 TheHumanSensation wrote:On September 17 2015 03:33 Frolossus wrote:
yeah the trick to making a ranged jungler happen is higher base armor and better innate sustain. as long as probably a low CD damage ability.
the revamped leash mechanics might help this issue a bit I'm actually not a fan of this approach. While it's probably fine to have some champs that work like this, and that isn't really the case yet (Fidd, Kayle, maybe Kindred), I think I'd personally prefer it if ranged champs had to rely on their range or finesse-ish tools (as opposed to tank&sustain) to jungle effectively (Malz/Zyra manage pets, Twitch ganks w/ red instead of farming, etc). This was sort of the case when you could wrap blue buff around the wall on one side of the map like how you can wrap red around for easy ranged kiting, but they took that out with the leash changes. Its all only a problem because the "hard jungle" is a strange way of balancing the jungle. All the finesse you are talking about really doesn't change much when it comes down to it because the monsters have so much HP and many are ranged themselves. With the "hard jungle" any character that is a good jungler either is: A) Tanky with high base damages; or B) Specialized for jungle only (i.e + damage to monsters), because otherwise they would be OP. Additionally, unless we neuter jungle gold there will be a farm bias in the jungle. So if you create an "easy jungle" in contrast to this hard jungle then champions who don't lane well and scale into lategame will be able to use the jungle as a "free lane". Which might be just as bad as the "hard jungle"
Possibly, but I do find that this warning has been continually espoused with no evidence that it actually happens. The closest was during the Feral Flare era, which was a failing of the item itself. As we speak, there are quite a few late game carries like Jax who can clear the jungle decently enough, and really just need that first jungle item to make their clear not really different from super meta junglers, but the bias is consistently towards those junglers that can put on lane or objective pressure.
On September 17 2015 06:35 TheHumanSensation wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 06:05 cLutZ wrote:On September 17 2015 05:04 TheHumanSensation wrote:On September 17 2015 03:33 Frolossus wrote:
yeah the trick to making a ranged jungler happen is higher base armor and better innate sustain. as long as probably a low CD damage ability.
the revamped leash mechanics might help this issue a bit I'm actually not a fan of this approach. While it's probably fine to have some champs that work like this, and that isn't really the case yet (Fidd, Kayle, maybe Kindred), I think I'd personally prefer it if ranged champs had to rely on their range or finesse-ish tools (as opposed to tank&sustain) to jungle effectively (Malz/Zyra manage pets, Twitch ganks w/ red instead of farming, etc). This was sort of the case when you could wrap blue buff around the wall on one side of the map like how you can wrap red around for easy ranged kiting, but they took that out with the leash changes. Its all only a problem because the "hard jungle" is a strange way of balancing the jungle. All the finesse you are talking about really doesn't change much when it comes down to it because the monsters have so much HP and many are ranged themselves. With the "hard jungle" any character that is a good jungler either is: A) Tanky with high base damages; or B) Specialized for jungle only (i.e + damage to monsters), because otherwise they would be OP. Well, I ran out of time so I cut my post a bit short, but I was going to add that I like that gromp is ranged to make that camp specifically really difficult to take if you're a jungler that relies on kiting to clear without dying. I think it's neat that a certain class/type of jungler just really struggles with that one, while said junglers would also have a disproportionately trivial time taking blue/red buffs. I guess I like the idea of the jungle not being uniformly difficult/accessible as an alternate to merely setting a required-stat-bar? Obviously birds being the "AoE champs clear this easy" camp and rocks being the "Kiteable" camp hasn't worked out historically, though. edit: to clarify this I'm not disagreeing with clutz, but to build on my post that he quoted, I think it's possible or maybe even ideal to have ranged champs that clear in ways that don't rely on tanky stats but that have other limits to compensate (such as not being able to clear gromp effectively)
It makes sense if there are camps that somehow punish the tanky-bruiser style. But since those dont really exist, you are biasing it towards those champs still. Like, "Type A jungler can be anywhere on the map and get XX farm, whereas type B cannot, and gets less farm." It could work, but seems very goofy to me.
|
|
|
On September 17 2015 06:53 cLutZ wrote:
Possibly, but I do find that this warning has been continually espoused with no evidence that it actually happens. The closest was during the Feral Flare era, which was a failing of the item itself. As we speak, there are quite a few late game carries like Jax who can clear the jungle decently enough, and really just need that first jungle item to make their clear not really different from super meta junglers, but the bias is consistently towards those junglers that can put on lane or objective pressure.
Well the jungle hasn't ever been "easy" so its hard to have evidence to support it. I was just talking about potential complications.
|
On September 17 2015 07:30 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 06:53 cLutZ wrote:
Possibly, but I do find that this warning has been continually espoused with no evidence that it actually happens. The closest was during the Feral Flare era, which was a failing of the item itself. As we speak, there are quite a few late game carries like Jax who can clear the jungle decently enough, and really just need that first jungle item to make their clear not really different from super meta junglers, but the bias is consistently towards those junglers that can put on lane or objective pressure. Well the jungle hasn't ever been "easy" so its hard to have evidence to support it. I was just talking about potential complications.
In s2 you could start boots on ashe and do camps...
|
The jungle was never easy that why people went 2 gold items and oracle with mobos on every jungler
|
s2 jungle was pretty easy.
^Yeah basically that. HoG into shurelya and if you ever got the money randiun's from the HoG was an easy iteration of the jungle. Getting the gold was hard because camps were so easy that every laner took them. Shit, mids took wraiths without even leaving lane the camp was so weak in hp.
|
On September 17 2015 07:39 nafta wrote:
The jungle was never easy that why people went 2 gold items and oracle with mobos on every jungler
Not sure if sarcasm...
|
On September 17 2015 06:53 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 06:35 TheHumanSensation wrote:On September 17 2015 06:05 cLutZ wrote:On September 17 2015 05:04 TheHumanSensation wrote:On September 17 2015 03:33 Frolossus wrote:
yeah the trick to making a ranged jungler happen is higher base armor and better innate sustain. as long as probably a low CD damage ability.
the revamped leash mechanics might help this issue a bit I'm actually not a fan of this approach. While it's probably fine to have some champs that work like this, and that isn't really the case yet (Fidd, Kayle, maybe Kindred), I think I'd personally prefer it if ranged champs had to rely on their range or finesse-ish tools (as opposed to tank&sustain) to jungle effectively (Malz/Zyra manage pets, Twitch ganks w/ red instead of farming, etc). This was sort of the case when you could wrap blue buff around the wall on one side of the map like how you can wrap red around for easy ranged kiting, but they took that out with the leash changes. Its all only a problem because the "hard jungle" is a strange way of balancing the jungle. All the finesse you are talking about really doesn't change much when it comes down to it because the monsters have so much HP and many are ranged themselves. With the "hard jungle" any character that is a good jungler either is: A) Tanky with high base damages; or B) Specialized for jungle only (i.e + damage to monsters), because otherwise they would be OP. Well, I ran out of time so I cut my post a bit short, but I was going to add that I like that gromp is ranged to make that camp specifically really difficult to take if you're a jungler that relies on kiting to clear without dying. I think it's neat that a certain class/type of jungler just really struggles with that one, while said junglers would also have a disproportionately trivial time taking blue/red buffs. I guess I like the idea of the jungle not being uniformly difficult/accessible as an alternate to merely setting a required-stat-bar? Obviously birds being the "AoE champs clear this easy" camp and rocks being the "Kiteable" camp hasn't worked out historically, though. edit: to clarify this I'm not disagreeing with clutz, but to build on my post that he quoted, I think it's possible or maybe even ideal to have ranged champs that clear in ways that don't rely on tanky stats but that have other limits to compensate (such as not being able to clear gromp effectively) It makes sense if there are camps that somehow punish the tanky-bruiser style. But since those dont really exist, you are biasing it towards those champs still. Like, "Type A jungler can be anywhere on the map and get XX farm, whereas type B cannot, and gets less farm." It could work, but seems very goofy to me.
Yes, but then they have the general issues of being tanky-bruiser champs, whereas the ranged ones have the general benefits of being ranged champs. I think it's an issue of trying to homogenize how champs interact with the jungle when there's no need to do so. ofc currently those ranged benefits don't outweigh the benefits of being able to farm anywhere successfully/quickly and we don't see ranged junglers other than nidalee, but I think they could theoretically be enabled (at least, moreso than is currently the case. idk if riot could do it without fucking something else up balance wise ofc).
On September 17 2015 07:43 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 07:39 nafta wrote:
The jungle was never easy that why people went 2 gold items and oracle with mobos on every jungler Not sure if sarcasm...
I think this person means that the jungle may have been easy to clear in s2, but it was hard to "succeed in", whereas success is based on something like power relative to laners at a given time.
|
On September 17 2015 07:43 TheHumanSensation wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 06:53 cLutZ wrote:On September 17 2015 06:35 TheHumanSensation wrote:On September 17 2015 06:05 cLutZ wrote:On September 17 2015 05:04 TheHumanSensation wrote:On September 17 2015 03:33 Frolossus wrote:
yeah the trick to making a ranged jungler happen is higher base armor and better innate sustain. as long as probably a low CD damage ability.
the revamped leash mechanics might help this issue a bit I'm actually not a fan of this approach. While it's probably fine to have some champs that work like this, and that isn't really the case yet (Fidd, Kayle, maybe Kindred), I think I'd personally prefer it if ranged champs had to rely on their range or finesse-ish tools (as opposed to tank&sustain) to jungle effectively (Malz/Zyra manage pets, Twitch ganks w/ red instead of farming, etc). This was sort of the case when you could wrap blue buff around the wall on one side of the map like how you can wrap red around for easy ranged kiting, but they took that out with the leash changes. Its all only a problem because the "hard jungle" is a strange way of balancing the jungle. All the finesse you are talking about really doesn't change much when it comes down to it because the monsters have so much HP and many are ranged themselves. With the "hard jungle" any character that is a good jungler either is: A) Tanky with high base damages; or B) Specialized for jungle only (i.e + damage to monsters), because otherwise they would be OP. Well, I ran out of time so I cut my post a bit short, but I was going to add that I like that gromp is ranged to make that camp specifically really difficult to take if you're a jungler that relies on kiting to clear without dying. I think it's neat that a certain class/type of jungler just really struggles with that one, while said junglers would also have a disproportionately trivial time taking blue/red buffs. I guess I like the idea of the jungle not being uniformly difficult/accessible as an alternate to merely setting a required-stat-bar? Obviously birds being the "AoE champs clear this easy" camp and rocks being the "Kiteable" camp hasn't worked out historically, though. edit: to clarify this I'm not disagreeing with clutz, but to build on my post that he quoted, I think it's possible or maybe even ideal to have ranged champs that clear in ways that don't rely on tanky stats but that have other limits to compensate (such as not being able to clear gromp effectively) It makes sense if there are camps that somehow punish the tanky-bruiser style. But since those dont really exist, you are biasing it towards those champs still. Like, "Type A jungler can be anywhere on the map and get XX farm, whereas type B cannot, and gets less farm." It could work, but seems very goofy to me. Yes, but then they have the general issues of being tanky-bruiser champs, whereas the ranged ones have the general benefits of being ranged champs. I think it's an issue of trying to homogenize how champs interact with the jungle when there's no need to do so. ofc currently those ranged benefits don't outweigh the benefits of being able to farm anywhere successfully/quickly and we don't see ranged junglers other than nidalee, but I think they could theoretically be enabled (at least, moreso than is currently the case. idk if riot could do it without fucking something else up balance wise ofc). Show nested quote +On September 17 2015 07:43 cLutZ wrote:On September 17 2015 07:39 nafta wrote:
The jungle was never easy that why people went 2 gold items and oracle with mobos on every jungler Not sure if sarcasm... I think this person means that the jungle may have been easy to clear in s2, but it was hard to "succeed in", whereas success is based on something like power relative to laners at a given time.
^^ That was because jungle gold was pretty crappy on a per-camp basis, lane gold was more snowbally (even failed ganks were worth something like 150 gold), oracles and infinite wards were huge gold sinks, etc. Even so a Mobi-Philostone Maokai could farm camps pretty easily if he wanted to.
|
Lee and J4 in their stronger iterations still appeared in s2. Mao/Nauti jungle worked because of the amount of pressure they brought with minimal farm. Remember most of the stronger junglers have been nerfed more than once since s2. Operating on that level of farm in the current state of league would be tough.
|
|
|
On September 17 2015 07:50 JonnyLaw wrote:
Lee and J4 in their stronger iterations still appeared in s2. Mao/Nauti jungle worked because of the amount of pressure they brought with minimal farm. Remember most of the stronger junglers have been nerfed more than once since s2. Operating on that level of farm in the current state of league would be tough.
Lee and J4 are still very gank oriented (also lee was still a strongish solo lane champ then). But Amumu and Shen also were competitive junglers, as were the more powerfarm oriented Skarner, Shyvana, and Mundo. Despite junglers being weaker compared to laners because of gold starvation, it was a very diverse jungle meta.
|
I'd argue the mumu and shyv picks. Saint liked that exhaust Shyvana but it wasn't very good.
Also, lee and j4 were just broken no matter where you put them at that time. You're correct.
|
On September 17 2015 08:42 JonnyLaw wrote:
I'd argue the mumu and shyv picks. Saint liked that exhaust Shyvana but it wasn't very good.
Also, lee and j4 were just broken no matter where you put them at that time. You're correct.
Frost ran Amumu in the finals game they won, WE ran it several times at IPL5. A lot of people ran shyvana in the jungle at worlds, also I forgot Udyr who was around powerfarming at that time as well.
|
|
|
Why would they word it like that "On sale permanently"? The terms are contradictory. Why not just say that the price of these runes has been reduced?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
