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On September 30 2015 02:13 Zess wrote:
After actually playing some League, it seems like the "most common" and "highest winrate" item builds on Champion.gg are usually woefully optimistic and seem to suffer from this weird retrospective data selection bias.
Same goes for for "best" way to level up skills, since the highest winrate ability order on most junglers seems to be any ranged CC even if it blows for clearing, presumably because you invaded lvl 1 and got something.
The main issue is that the "best" build is highly likely to be the build that you get when you are already winning. The winning build might be the build you get when already fed, not the build that gets you fed.
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On September 30 2015 04:41 nafta wrote:
I still don't understand why has nobody mentioned how adcs completely dominate bot lane with support 2v2 as a big reason for them being here AND being much better at zoning from the wave after freezing.
Mordekaiser works, not to mention there are plenty of cheezy as fuck double bruiser botlane that can kick quite a few botlane combos asses.
I think with the new champ, I think Riot is trying to introduce a tower taker in the jungle position, so it can free up botlane for more combos.
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On September 30 2015 05:39 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 04:41 nafta wrote:
I still don't understand why has nobody mentioned how adcs completely dominate bot lane with support 2v2 as a big reason for them being here AND being much better at zoning from the wave after freezing. Mordekaiser works, not to mention there are plenty of cheezy as fuck double bruiser botlane that can kick quite a few botlane combos asses. I think with the new champ, I think Riot is trying to introduce a tower taker in the jungle position, so it can free up botlane for more combos.
except they don't. They work only because nobody plays them.
And morde is the only champ that is designed with the idea to duo lane.
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If they really want to shake things up they should allow single target spells to damage towers. That'd probably be a significant recode though and more drastic than Riot wants at the moment.
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On September 30 2015 05:41 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 05:39 wei2coolman wrote:On September 30 2015 04:41 nafta wrote:
I still don't understand why has nobody mentioned how adcs completely dominate bot lane with support 2v2 as a big reason for them being here AND being much better at zoning from the wave after freezing. Mordekaiser works, not to mention there are plenty of cheezy as fuck double bruiser botlane that can kick quite a few botlane combos asses. I think with the new champ, I think Riot is trying to introduce a tower taker in the jungle position, so it can free up botlane for more combos. except they don't. They work only because nobody plays them.And morde is the only champ that is designed with the idea to duo lane.
I don't get this logic?
If it works, it works.
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On September 30 2015 05:44 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 05:41 nafta wrote:On September 30 2015 05:39 wei2coolman wrote:On September 30 2015 04:41 nafta wrote:
I still don't understand why has nobody mentioned how adcs completely dominate bot lane with support 2v2 as a big reason for them being here AND being much better at zoning from the wave after freezing. Mordekaiser works, not to mention there are plenty of cheezy as fuck double bruiser botlane that can kick quite a few botlane combos asses. I think with the new champ, I think Riot is trying to introduce a tower taker in the jungle position, so it can free up botlane for more combos. except they don't. They work only because nobody plays them.And morde is the only champ that is designed with the idea to duo lane. I don't get this logic? If it works, it works.
The logic is that if they became standard they wouldn't work. Curveballs like double bruiser bots have a leg up because people don't know how to play correctly, or even half decently, against them.
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On September 30 2015 05:44 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 05:41 nafta wrote:On September 30 2015 05:39 wei2coolman wrote:On September 30 2015 04:41 nafta wrote:
I still don't understand why has nobody mentioned how adcs completely dominate bot lane with support 2v2 as a big reason for them being here AND being much better at zoning from the wave after freezing. Mordekaiser works, not to mention there are plenty of cheezy as fuck double bruiser botlane that can kick quite a few botlane combos asses. I think with the new champ, I think Riot is trying to introduce a tower taker in the jungle position, so it can free up botlane for more combos. except they don't. They work only because nobody plays them.And morde is the only champ that is designed with the idea to duo lane. I don't get this logic? If it works, it works.
That's probably because you haven't played properly against anything in your life.
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All sorts of cheese bullshit 'works' but if it ever works well enough to be used commonly, it will be, it will then be solved, and it will then probably be shit. The broader the strategy you're looking at, the more likely it is we've already figured out the optimum.
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On September 30 2015 05:53 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 05:44 wei2coolman wrote:On September 30 2015 05:41 nafta wrote:On September 30 2015 05:39 wei2coolman wrote:On September 30 2015 04:41 nafta wrote:
I still don't understand why has nobody mentioned how adcs completely dominate bot lane with support 2v2 as a big reason for them being here AND being much better at zoning from the wave after freezing. Mordekaiser works, not to mention there are plenty of cheezy as fuck double bruiser botlane that can kick quite a few botlane combos asses. I think with the new champ, I think Riot is trying to introduce a tower taker in the jungle position, so it can free up botlane for more combos. except they don't. They work only because nobody plays them.And morde is the only champ that is designed with the idea to duo lane. I don't get this logic? If it works, it works. The logic is that if they became standard they wouldn't work. Curveballs like double bruiser bots have a leg up because people don't know how to play correctly, or even half decently, against them.
On September 30 2015 05:56 Fildun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 05:44 wei2coolman wrote:On September 30 2015 05:41 nafta wrote:On September 30 2015 05:39 wei2coolman wrote:On September 30 2015 04:41 nafta wrote:
I still don't understand why has nobody mentioned how adcs completely dominate bot lane with support 2v2 as a big reason for them being here AND being much better at zoning from the wave after freezing. Mordekaiser works, not to mention there are plenty of cheezy as fuck double bruiser botlane that can kick quite a few botlane combos asses. I think with the new champ, I think Riot is trying to introduce a tower taker in the jungle position, so it can free up botlane for more combos. except they don't. They work only because nobody plays them.And morde is the only champ that is designed with the idea to duo lane. I don't get this logic? If it works, it works. That's probably because you haven't played properly against anything in your life.
The whole point of picking champions in pick/ban in solo queue is to pick something that you have knowledge or skill gap so you can exploit the difference in skill/knowledge in certain matchups.
I don't see how double/bruiser, or how other cheezy shit doesn't fall in this exact same category.
On September 30 2015 06:22 Caiada wrote:
All sorts of cheese bullshit 'works' but if it ever works well enough to be used commonly, it will be, it will then be solved, and it will then probably be shit. The broader the strategy you're looking at, the more likely it is we've already figured out the optimum.
If it works now, why not play it now? Then when it doesn't work, you stop playing it. Whoa, mind blown!
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Well then play it if you think it works.
I thought it was obvious when people talk viability it is for pro play but guess not. Soloq is just a shitfest it doesn't matter.
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On September 30 2015 06:22 Caiada wrote:
All sorts of cheese bullshit 'works' but if it ever works well enough to be used commonly, it will be, it will then be solved, and it will then probably be shit. The broader the strategy you're looking at, the more likely it is we've already figured out the optimum.
I think you vastly overestimate the League of Legends community.
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I'm as cynical about it as anybody on this board, probably more so, but there's tens of millions of people playing this game. Do you know how much more shit China figures out about D3 just because they've got a few million people playing it? And LoL is almost certainly bigger.
On September 30 2015 07:15 nafta wrote:
Well then play it if you think it works.
I thought it was obvious when people talk viability it is for pro play but guess not. Soloq is just a shitfest it doesn't matter.
Also very true.
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On September 30 2015 04:51 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 04:47 ticklishmusic wrote:
I don't think AD's are all that great at taking towers until they hit like 3 items though... a mid with some AP or some other role who builds damage/has sheen or even an AA reset takes towers better until around midgame or later.
"Should have stopped me 20 minutes ago" isn't really a valid point. If the enemy team is gonna draft a lategame carry, you counter that by picking a comp that's strong earlier on to gain a lead and delay or deny their carry from coming online. That's how having champs with different power curves work. Does Riot want to go to League of Bruisers again or something? Actually the difference in atk speed is very important for walking up hitting once and walking out.
Also attack range. AP with lichbane takes towers super fast, but not many AP's can get Lichbane in a reasonable amount of time. Really AD's get really good at taking down towers with 1-2 items and the third not really having much of an effect.
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On September 30 2015 07:27 Goumindong wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 04:51 nafta wrote:On September 30 2015 04:47 ticklishmusic wrote:
I don't think AD's are all that great at taking towers until they hit like 3 items though... a mid with some AP or some other role who builds damage/has sheen or even an AA reset takes towers better until around midgame or later.
"Should have stopped me 20 minutes ago" isn't really a valid point. If the enemy team is gonna draft a lategame carry, you counter that by picking a comp that's strong earlier on to gain a lead and delay or deny their carry from coming online. That's how having champs with different power curves work. Does Riot want to go to League of Bruisers again or something? Actually the difference in atk speed is very important for walking up hitting once and walking out. Also attack range. AP with lichbane takes towers super fast, but not many AP's can get Lichbane in a reasonable amount of time. Really AD's get really good at taking down towers with 1-2 items and the third not really having much of an effect.
Well I didn't mention the atk range cuz it depends. Right now with trist/jinx/kog all being popular there is a big difference but the other ads are close to the mages. Having a dash on low cd or spell shield can compensate for it since most mages don't have one as well.
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On September 30 2015 07:29 nafta wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 07:27 Goumindong wrote:On September 30 2015 04:51 nafta wrote:On September 30 2015 04:47 ticklishmusic wrote:
I don't think AD's are all that great at taking towers until they hit like 3 items though... a mid with some AP or some other role who builds damage/has sheen or even an AA reset takes towers better until around midgame or later.
"Should have stopped me 20 minutes ago" isn't really a valid point. If the enemy team is gonna draft a lategame carry, you counter that by picking a comp that's strong earlier on to gain a lead and delay or deny their carry from coming online. That's how having champs with different power curves work. Does Riot want to go to League of Bruisers again or something? Actually the difference in atk speed is very important for walking up hitting once and walking out. Also attack range. AP with lichbane takes towers super fast, but not many AP's can get Lichbane in a reasonable amount of time. Really AD's get really good at taking down towers with 1-2 items and the third not really having much of an effect. Well I didn't mention the atk range cuz it depends. Right now with trist/jinx/kog all being popular there is a big difference but the other ads are close to the mages. Having a dash on low cd or spell shield can compensate for it since most mages don't have one as well.
Well almost every AD has something to help them knock down towers. If its not range its an AS/AD steroid, or an attack reset, or the ability to build triforce well and get that sweet sweet bonus damage.
The only marksman who don't have anything like that seem to be Quinn (unless creeps are around), Twitch (unrealistic to stealth to hit towers, but possible), and Kalista(actually legitimately no steroids against towers)
On September 30 2015 05:53 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2015 05:44 wei2coolman wrote:On September 30 2015 05:41 nafta wrote:On September 30 2015 05:39 wei2coolman wrote:On September 30 2015 04:41 nafta wrote:
I still don't understand why has nobody mentioned how adcs completely dominate bot lane with support 2v2 as a big reason for them being here AND being much better at zoning from the wave after freezing. Mordekaiser works, not to mention there are plenty of cheezy as fuck double bruiser botlane that can kick quite a few botlane combos asses. I think with the new champ, I think Riot is trying to introduce a tower taker in the jungle position, so it can free up botlane for more combos. except they don't. They work only because nobody plays them.And morde is the only champ that is designed with the idea to duo lane. I don't get this logic? If it works, it works. The logic is that if they became standard they wouldn't work. Curveballs like double bruiser bots have a leg up because people don't know how to play correctly, or even half decently, against them.
Well really the argument is that they don't work, and that they only "work" in the sense that you can win games not that you have a high probability of winning games.
I think is very likely that that is true. Double Bruiser works in the sense that you can get ahead and snowball an engage comp off of the raw base stats of a melee champion. But if you can't snowball you will almost certainly lose the game. The exceptions of course being the insanity that is Morde..
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Morde is a non-traditional peg balanced in a highly specific (still mildly overtuned) way to fit a traditional hole.
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United States37500 Posts
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EPT
