EPT[Patch 5.18] League of Legends General Discussion - Page 3
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M2
Bulgaria4186 Posts
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739
Bearded Elder29905 Posts
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Kinie
United States3106 Posts
That clear speed is so bad, not to mention that if anyone even tried to invade her (at least, that's what I think I'm going to go with when talking about Kindred) she'd die near instantly. I think the biggest knock against her right now is that the W sustain might not be enough at rank 1, so maybe a bonus heal if what she hits is a monster. Though keep in mind that this was her soloing every camp, where-as in a normal game you'd probably get help from the bot lane to help dps/burst down the first camp. A normal jungle route will usually be krugs > red > blue > gromp > wolves > raptors if you're blue side, and gromp > blue > red > krugs > raptors > wolves for red side if you want to do a full clear before backing. Sometimes people will back after the third camp to get the jungle item, finish up the rest of the jungle and then go gank a lane (if they are an early game jungler). | ||
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Gahlo
United States35174 Posts
On September 16 2015 13:47 739 wrote: Is this me but are those Marauder/Warden new skins damn awful? Typical "model just got put on the pbe/they aren't meant to be viewed head on from a model viewer." here. Additionally, they're 750 skins, so they aren't supposed to be impressive. On September 16 2015 16:59 739 wrote: IIRC his/her/their range is pretty meh, so it won't work as ADC. It's 500. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On September 16 2015 06:54 TheTenthDoc wrote: Just because ability power doesn't exist doesn't mean spellcasters don't scale with items. There are actually three main ways in which DotA spells scale with items: Mana and mana regen (more spells/engagement), Cooldown (Octarine Core), and raw effect (Aghanim's). The three most picked and banned solo mid heroes at the moment do the majority of their damage through magic damage skills scaled through at least one of these ways (Storm Spirit = Mana and mana regen, Leshrac = Mana and mana regen and to a lesser extent Octarine, Lina = Mana and Aghanim's). Then there are other cases like Skywrath Mage who scales incredibly well with items as a core because one of his skills has built-in ability power since it scales with intelligence, a stat you can buy. I mean, if ability power didn't exist in League, you could still have casters like Ryze. Also have to factor in how much better those squishy casters become when they get more utility items. Saying there's no caster that scale with items in dota is just silly. Anyway I don't think either party knows enough about Dota to really talk about it in comparison to league. Having farm distribution doesn't mean there's a static setup. Position 4 does not mean jungler or primary support, it means position 4 on farm priority. That's it. You can have offlaners with less priority than supports(Bone7 clock lol). edit: I forgot to mention that farm priority exists in league as well. It's a symptom of the genre design with items/gold/scaling. The major difference is that farm priority is static in league so it's synonymous with positions. Many people misuse the nomenclature in dota by making it about positions like one would in league. Farm priority is fluid in Dota, it changes depending on lineups and game states. Often a position 4/5 will shift into a position 1/2 for a period of time to get an item break point which is more valuable for the team than the previous position 1/2 getting 500g closer to an item for example. It also shifts based on team composition. You see heroes like visage shift from 4 to 1 in some games and in others stays static at 3/4 position. A little test I like to do is the "if there's a wave pushing in who will farm it". That generally tells you who the team values reliable gold on the most at that given time. It's obviously not 100% accurate at sometimes you get heroes like AM where due to game state will value riskier farm that applies pressure over safe farm even though they are the highest farm priority. Saying dota has mirrored setups like league does is rather disingenuous. League went the opposite route when it came to adjusting farm priority. Instead of making a case for lower farm priority heroes requiring farm to get item break points they created an outside stream of income to give those positions gold. Cheap cost efficient but slot inefficient items could have created a paradigm shift in how support/junglers are prioritized in the team but unfortunately riot is against that kind of itemization. These days people seem to be big on the whole "cores" concept in dota. I don't quite get it since it doesn't tell you much as you get different kinds of cores which drastically change the team dynamic but it is more akin to the league system. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
So it probably doesn't benefit from crits that much, since it doesn't have AD/AS incentives and its ratios are weak. The passive on the other hand... mobility during W is super good too, basically Tumble, but without the stealth and limited to a zone so you can't kite/chase indefinitely. The incentive to take it bot is lessened by the passive only applying to monsters in the enemy jungle (so you'd need map control at a later point in the game to use it), even though it can only stack 6 times from monsters (still 7.5% current HP per auto), which would take around 10 minutes if you do these camps as soon as they're marked. Q needs 225 AD to break even with the damage from one auto (without crit), so it's not that bad despite the 0.2 ratio. W doesn't have info on Wolf's AS atm, it doesn't need much AD to become weaker than an auto from Lamb but it's still potentially very high as a damage steroid. If it can't crit, that's another incentive not to build that. E's third attack does more damage than a normal one until 250 AD. Gotta see if it can crit or not (and if the %maxHP damage is included in the crit). On September 16 2015 14:54 Purge wrote: For someone with terrible understanding of current clear times and their relevance, is this a good time? Like what am I actually seeing here? Stonewall (and RoG in general) is terrible at theorycrafting and a bunch of stuff pertaining to the jungle, despite being a rather highly ranked (iirc?) jungle main. Don't pay attention to it and give Scip or Teut a PBE account instead.  Numy I think by "position" people mean "over the course of the game" rather than "at some exact given point". Even if you give your ES a wave so he can finish his Blink Dagger, doesn't mean he becomes "position 1" for a few seconds. He's still probably a support, he just gets a little nudge. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
Hell just to take an extreme point take a look at Naga Siren. She's a hero that can be anything. Some games you'll see her start out as a position 4 but by the end of the game she's got the most farm on the team and the primary carry while the initial position 1 is relegated to 2 or 3. Calling her a support or position 4 doesn't make any sense in that context. Then you get games where she stays primarily a 3/4 due to team dynamics and goals. It's entirely possible misuse has not changed what the system means so now it's literally just static positions like in League. I have my doubts as I hear more about "cores" than farm priority these days. Cores can be interesting as it's more vague a term so there's more open to interpretation/context but even then it's still subject to in game shifts. An example would be starting with a core ES(offlaner) who transitions to a support ES later while the support transitions to core or the team just goes down to a 1/2 core team. Anyway this went on a huge tangent. The point was that mirror setups on dota aren't fixed like in league. They can happen between similar teams and they can be drastically different too. Using the farm priority system to make it sound like they are is just incorrect. League went in a different direction years ago with trinkets and support items. I think it's fine. It's not exactly how I wanted but I still enjoy league and watching Chinese league is pretty fun. Having some more variety wouldn't hurt but I think the only way we'll see that is if the draft system is improved. Niche comps don't work without the ability to protect them. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
Also, I don't agree with Goumindong's point on symmetry. LoL isn't chess. The map isn't purely symmetrical and the pieces the players control, while generally falling into common archetypes, aren't symmetrical either. That the traditional setup has lasted this long is primarily because Riot has been enforcing it, and despite their doing so we've still seen it shaken up from time to time. Even now the early double jungle, lane swaps, and other professional plays show the cracks in the setup and the potential for there to be more variety. Basically it's like arguing SC:BW is symmetrical because there are points of commonality between the three races. | ||
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Zeroxk
Norway1244 Posts
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On September 16 2015 22:46 Seuss wrote: My point is that it's possible with enough effort from Riot that niche comps will stop being niche. Changing drafting would obviously go a long way, but it's not the only thing that can help. Also, I don't agree with Goumindong's point on symmetry. LoL isn't chess. The map isn't purely symmetrical and the pieces the players control, while generally falling into common archetypes, aren't symmetrical either. That the traditional setup has lasted this long is primarily because Riot has been enforcing it, and despite their doing so we've still seen it shaken up from time to time. Even now the early double jungle, lane swaps, and other professional plays show the cracks in the setup and the potential for there to be more variety. Basically it's like arguing SC:BW is symmetrical because there are points of commonality between the three races. In once sense Chess is less symmetric than league, because league is played simultaneously. My point was not that "we are stuck in this meta because its the one we have" but "any non-symmetric open which has a symmetric option will become symmetric or die out" and "any non-symmetric open which does not have a symmetric option will be OP/Banned". There is a reason that professional games tend to mirrored openings and its not because riot is forcing people to play AD's bot. Its because that is the strongest option and so teams mirror. There are tons of examples of this happening in professional league play. From 4v1 to 4v0 to double jungle until 2 swap to support junglers to which champions are priority picks. If something gets strong the other side does it. If they can't then they can ban out the champions which make that thing work, and will do so. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
It'll just take a while. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On September 17 2015 03:00 Seuss wrote: I understand your point Goumindong, I just don't agree with you. There's a lot more involved in maintaining the standard setup than lane/comp symmetry, and much of it is stuff Riot can tweak if they want to mix things up. It's tricky, and if they fail (like they did way back when they tried to make junglers optional) then we'll simply see a different setup dominate things, but that's only if they fail. They can succeed, and I'm hopeful they will. It'll just take a while. But if they succeed with only one champion, it gets banned. If they succeed with a good deal of champions, teams will mirror on the new meta. | ||
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Mensol
14536 Posts
 also kasing and hjarnan already in master league, impressive stuff. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On September 17 2015 03:05 Goumindong wrote: But if they succeed with only one champion, it gets banned. If they succeed with a good deal of champions, teams will mirror on the new meta. I think you are vastly overstating the newness of these champs. They fit the old meta perfectly well, and are just too strong for champions designed for the meta. Or this ranged jungler, we already have a 50% ranged jungler, and the reason we don't see more is because Riot intentionally made the jungle do shitloads of damage and be unkitable. By making a ranged character that can tank shitloads of damage at lvls 1-6, they are just extending the range of a regular jungler. So, I guess, better red buff usage! | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On September 17 2015 03:05 Goumindong wrote: But if they succeed with only one champion, it gets banned. If they succeed with a good deal of champions, teams will mirror on the new meta. Your first statement is correct. Your second statement does not follow. If Riot makes/reworks/rebalances a large number of champions who successfully fulfill common roles but in unorthodox positions, that does not necessarily mean that those roles will no longer function or be competitive in their current positions. That may be the outcome, but it is not the only possible outcome. | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
the revamped leash mechanics might help this issue a bit | ||
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
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TheHumanSensation
Canada1210 Posts
On September 17 2015 03:33 Frolossus wrote: yeah the trick to making a ranged jungler happen is higher base armor and better innate sustain. as long as probably a low CD damage ability. the revamped leash mechanics might help this issue a bit I'm actually not a fan of this approach. While it's probably fine to have some champs that work like this, and that isn't really the case yet (Fidd, Kayle, maybe Kindred), I think I'd personally prefer it if ranged champs had to rely on their range or finesse-ish tools (as opposed to tank&sustain) to jungle effectively (Malz/Zyra manage pets, Twitch ganks w/ red instead of farming, etc). This was sort of the case when you could wrap blue buff around the wall on one side of the map like how you can wrap red around for easy ranged kiting, but they took that out with the leash changes. | ||
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