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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On June 29 2015 05:37 iCanada wrote: You get 3% Max HP per second with Warmogs. Who cares about the rest of the stats, buying that shit lets you go oldskool fountain of life. Per 5 seconds. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
For shame guys. Also Warmogs on Soraka is shit. It increases the cost of her heal by 40. So even if she's healing twice every five seconds (she can heal twice that fast with CDR), it's costing her 80 HP/5 just to have Warmogs in her inventory. With no HP from other sources, Warmogs heals her for 79 HP/5 if she's not in combat. So in a more or less ideal scenario for Soraka, the Warmogs regen is actually doing less than the increased damage from having higher HP. You really want to avoid items that give HP like the plague on Soraka, except for Spirit Visage. Shit like Frozen Heart, Talisman, Mikhaels, these are all awesome. Locket is awesome too even though it gives HP, but that's just because Locket is in general awesome. Warmogs is a shitty item in general and thinking Soraka has synergy with it is wrongo. | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
The reason HP is "better" when %HP is involved, is because it's cheaper and easier to get early on, works better against flat true damage, but also against MR due to how most champions still lack sustained magic damage (of course with Azir, Kog, etc. being popular it's not so true; also stuff like Gnar in lane). But I'd rather have a buffer to survive (and I'd rather have Randuin's than Warmogs for this) then stats increasing the value of my sustain (AP, CDR, resists, basically; not necessarily all of them, but them over additional HP past that threshold), than just stacking HP mindlessly. | ||
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TheHumanSensation
Canada1210 Posts
On June 29 2015 23:42 Jek wrote: You can still do the same amount of heals, except that you dont blow up if someone looks at you. The idea of HP items sucingk on Soraka is similar to saying HP suck on Zac or Aatrox because of thei HP% cost. lol No, it's like saying that Armour/MR are better than HP on Aatrox because his heal is flat / scales with AD, and doesn't scale with HP. Soraka's W cost will always be 10% of your total life regardless of what survivability you build. If you build AP/spellvamp, then your Q will heal you for a higher amount than what you lose. If you rely on Warmog's for your regen you'll be disappointed, as it is not a higher amount than what you lose. If you build Armour/MR then you increase the value of the flat/AP-scaling heal from Q (as a % of your effective HP), whereas if you build HP then your Q-heal is worth a lower % of your effective HP than was previously the case. I'd be interested in the numbers, though. I might do this later if no-one else has by tonight. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On June 29 2015 23:42 Jek wrote: You can still do the same amount of heals, except that you dont blow up if someone looks at you. The idea of HP items sucingk on Soraka is similar to saying HP suck on Zac or Aatrox because of thei HP% cost. lol There are champions whose kits make them lean towards resistances for defense, and champions whose kits make them lean towards HP for defense. Rammus, for example, heavily prefers HP, because he gets lots of bonus resists. Soraka heavily prefers resists, because her skills cost % HP but regain flat HP. That's not to say she doesn't make use of the HP on Spirit Visage and Locket, but it is to say that Warmogs is an absolutely terrible item on her. Warmogs is an absolutely terrible item in general. I'd suggest that any time you ever buy it on anyone you should really think hard as to whether or not it's the correct item choice. Almost all of the time something else is going to be better, unless your champion has some sort of special Warmogs synergy. Soraka does not. | ||
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Mensol
14536 Posts
adc meta here we go | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
On June 29 2015 12:16 Zess wrote: TL homeboy VayneAuthority is playing now in the 1v1 tourney ( http://www.twitch.tv/teamliquidlol ) ayy, lost in the semis but 250$ ill take it | ||
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Disengaged
United States6994 Posts
Thats broken as hell | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
On June 30 2015 00:30 Ketara wrote: There are champions whose kits make them lean towards resistances for defense, and champions whose kits make them lean towards HP for defense. Rammus, for example, heavily prefers HP, because he gets lots of bonus resists. Soraka heavily prefers resists, because her skills cost % HP but regain flat HP. That's not to say she doesn't make use of the HP on Spirit Visage and Locket, but it is to say that Warmogs is an absolutely terrible item on her. Warmogs is an absolutely terrible item in general. I'd suggest that any time you ever buy it on anyone you should really think hard as to whether or not it's the correct item choice. Almost all of the time something else is going to be better, unless your champion has some sort of special Warmogs synergy. Soraka does not. I think we have to agree to disagree. For clarity, this is not an argument for! There is an interesting observation on probuilds.net: Warmogs have a higher popularity than upgraded Mobility Boots/Aegis and Mikael's on probuilds - that's not to say their opinion is absolute or builds are optimal, just found it interesting and honestly a bit surprising.  On June 30 2015 01:34 VayneAuthority wrote: ayy, lost in the semis but 250$ ill take it Grats man! :D | ||
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nafta
Bulgaria18893 Posts
that is also a vayne with smite and it takes quite long to get that item >.>.Don't think that item will reach live anyway would be ridiculously broken. Changed my opinion on shen support might not be THAT strong or anything but not as weak as I thought at first definitely. | ||
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VayneAuthority
United States8983 Posts
Trundle support can afford to max pillar 2nd (or even first) and with some cd can be up permanently for catch comps where their team has one main super tank and you can make quick work of them while making yourself a very very tanky support. I feel like this niche is much more relevant/pronounced then shen's if you're looking for a weird support to play. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
Support Shen (the way I've been playing him) has pretty crap waveclear. But his lane presence is pretty strong, and he has global presence unlike any other support (k, that's a lie there's Raka and Bard). He wrecks melee supports except for Ali, because manly cows are stronger than ninjas. That and Ali has a heal, surprisingly good damage and 2 CC's. I haven't decided if Shen is actually good versus ranged ones, though I'm leaning towards saying it's a more mixed bag. ---- Raka favors resists, but you want a decent HP pool as well because her base is pretty crap. FH + BV/SV is probably the best two item defense combo for her IMO. | ||
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Kaneh
Canada737 Posts
TLDR: everyone's wrong. warmog's is actually good as a regen item for topping people off between fights/skirmishes. soraka base hp ~1800hp 11 hp/5 base time to regen 1 heal = 81s talisman ~1800hp 11base + 11 = 22hp/5 time to regen ~ 40s double regen (say talisman and 2 beads ~ 27.27s Spirit visage ~2200hp gives 11 hp/5 (100% base) + 20% = 22*1.2 = 26.4 time to recover 1 heal = 41.6s warmog's ~2600hp 1% hp/5 = 26hp/5 + base = 37 hp/5 3% hp/5 = 78hp/5 + base = 89 hp/5 in combat = 35.1s ooc = 14.6s warmog's + visage ~3000hp, needs 100 hp/5 divided by 1.2 = 83.333 in combat = 30 + 11 + 11 = 52 *1.2 = 62.4 hp/5 ooc = 90 + 11 + 11 = 112 * 1.2 = 134.4 hp/5 in combat ~ 24s ooc ~ 11.1s Other hp regen items are severly outclassed by warmogs, even taking into account the additional HP lost on heal AND reduced healing in combat. For a soraka that can get out of combat (i.e. roams around healing people, topping people off after skirmishes) warmogs is the runaway best item. so what it comes down to is how much you value ap/cdr to increase your healing output during a fight, as for regen items, warmogs is the best. EDIT:: as a side note, note I said regen. buying defensive items on soraka (frozen heart etc.) is another discussion with different maths | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On June 29 2015 05:37 iCanada wrote: You get 3% Max HP per second with Warmogs. Who cares about the rest of the stats, buying that shit lets you go oldskool fountain of life. no its 3% max hp per 5 seconds its significant in long sieges with a poke comp, if both teams were poking constantly I'd get it but its more likely one team wants to engage On June 30 2015 03:13 Kaneh wrote: math time! TLDR: everyone's wrong. warmog's is actually good as a regen item for topping people off between fights/skirmishes. soraka base hp ~1800hp 11 hp/5 base time to regen 1 heal = 81s talisman ~1800hp 11base + 11 = 22hp/5 time to regen ~ 40s double regen (say talisman and 2 beads ~ 27.27s Spirit visage ~2200hp gives 11 hp/5 (100% base) + 20% = 22*1.2 = 26.4 time to recover 1 heal = 41.6s warmog's ~2600hp 1% hp/5 = 26hp/5 + base = 37 hp/5 3% hp/5 = 78hp/5 + base = 89 hp/5 in combat = 35.1s ooc = 14.6s warmog's + visage ~3000hp, needs 100 hp/5 divided by 1.2 = 83.333 in combat = 30 + 11 + 11 = 52 *1.2 = 62.4 hp/5 ooc = 90 + 11 + 11 = 112 * 1.2 = 134.4 hp/5 in combat ~ 24s ooc ~ 11.1s Other hp regen items are severly outclassed by warmogs, even taking into account the additional HP lost on heal AND reduced healing in combat. For a soraka that can get out of combat (i.e. roams around healing people, topping people off after skirmishes) warmogs is the runaway best item. so what it comes down to is how much you value ap/cdr to increase your healing output during a fight, as for regen items, warmogs is the best. EDIT:: as a side note, note I said regen. buying defensive items on soraka (frozen heart etc.) is another discussion with different maths you're not taking into account things like increased potion regen on spirit visage as well as self healing from ultimate and increased cost of healing with a warmogs armour the problem with warmogs essentially is that it screws you over in teamfights because you have no resists and you lost a lot of hp every time you heal obviously the out of combat regen item is better for pure out of combat regenning ap increases your heal amount, your heal efficiency, as well as your self healing and damgae cdr increases your heal throughput but not your heal efficiency resists increase your EHP especially reaching the ultimate low hp healing bonus on yourself. an item like spirit visage is good because although it increases your self healing and regen hp and mr meaning that you're more likely to be able to survive a teamfight after using some heals (because of higher effective EHP due to MR and regen on pots+a super self heal with R on low hp) that said I get spirit visage more rarely than locket because you buy locket for the aura and the shield gives you hp without costing more on your heal. But more importantly its just a really good item. On June 29 2015 22:09 Ketara wrote: This is the third or fourth time I've seen somebody in GD claim that Warmogs gives HP per second instead of HP per 5 seconds. For shame guys. Also Warmogs on Soraka is shit. It increases the cost of her heal by 40. So even if she's healing twice every five seconds (she can heal twice that fast with CDR), it's costing her 80 HP/5 just to have Warmogs in her inventory. With no HP from other sources, Warmogs heals her for 79 HP/5 if she's not in combat. So in a more or less ideal scenario for Soraka, the Warmogs regen is actually doing less than the increased damage from having higher HP. You really want to avoid items that give HP like the plague on Soraka, except for Spirit Visage. Shit like Frozen Heart, Talisman, Mikhaels, these are all awesome. Locket is awesome too even though it gives HP, but that's just because Locket is in general awesome. Warmogs is a shitty item in general and thinking Soraka has synergy with it is wrongo. Actually ketara it increases the cost of heal by 80, its 10% max hp. Meaning if you heal 10 times or more in a given fight you gain no value and an average case of 5 heals which is probably quite low for soraka from my experience you gain only a giants belt of survivability. Warmogs is at a weird point where if you get poked a lot for a long time its good, and if you get hard engaged on its good, but the more likely situation is a low amount of poke and then you never get targeted (if you play it properly) until the end of the teamfight when you're low hpish just from healing. I wouldn't call it a shit item but I think its highly overrated and usually a suboptimal use of 2500 gold. It's probably better lategame because you can't rely on potions the whole game lol | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
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ConanTroutman
Canada67 Posts
The on hit effect passive on Sated Devourer is interesting but I think they need to be careful with it (or just abandon it altogether) just because of the fact that there a fringe cases where the passive is just going to be broken/too strong making it very hard to balance. Increasing the frequency of on-hits proccing with anything other than an AS boost is dangerous territory for a lot of champs. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23460 Posts
On June 30 2015 04:18 Goumindong wrote: Unless you need regen to power your heals for a siege... Right, its just you lose a lot the regen you gain just by the extra hp cost to heal with warmogs its not that its bad in a siege, its just how worth it is, depends on the comps but people buy it far too often id say | ||
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