EPT[Patch 5.7] More Executes General Discussion - Page 56
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On April 26 2015 13:18 Sonnington wrote: Mid lane Gragas was the most annoying BS ever. Bar none. "I have infinite sustain, damage reduction, and an ability that gives me mother fucking mana regen. There's nothing you can do to trade with me efficiently. I also have good wave, great disengage, great engage, great mobility, and I can 100-0 squishies. And oh yeah, don't even think about fighting me after level 2, I get free AD. I want you to all in me level 2." Remember when his dash had a 5 second cd and his barrels had 1000 range so he could just snipe people and chunk them hard from the FOW? God I hated that champ so much. Now he's fine. He's perfectly balanced. Is he a strong jungler? Sure, but he's not some Übermensch Adonis with no weaknesses. He does his job efficiently, but he's not OP. gragas had a weak to average laning phase in a meta about power farming and fell off super hard late game | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On April 26 2015 15:39 Frolossus wrote: gragas had a weak to average laning phase in a meta about power farming and fell off super hard late game | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
and you see how much damage it did to olaf? any other season 2 mage would've chunked him too in addition to killing both squishies, elise would've lived had she not been half life. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
Not that he didn't have really high 2 spell burst and it needed to be nerfed (slightly), but that version of Gragas was way more fun and way more balancable than this one. Current Gragas doesn't even need to use Q in fights to be effective, and if he did, he would be ineffective because it stupidly has to charge up! | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On April 26 2015 15:49 cLutZ wrote: I dont see what that is supposed to be evidence of. They were ahead, he was full items, link was at 80% HP and no MR, dexter at 50% and had 1 MR item. Ori would have done the same with RW or QRW. I'd argue if he couldn't do that in that situation he would not have been a viable champion. Not that he didn't have really high 2 spell burst and it needed to be nerfed (slightly), but that version of Gragas was way more fun and way more balancable than this one. Current Gragas doesn't even need to use Q in fights to be effective, and if he did, he would be ineffective because it stupidly has to charge up! the strong point of gragas mid was always that you had to pressure objectives as soon as you had blue buff + deathcap and try to end early. as the game progressed he had less sustained damage than other popular mids at the time and lower total burst that had less reliability than other characters. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
Olaf lost 1200hp, how much of a chunk do you want? | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On April 26 2015 15:57 Ansibled wrote: You have more time to react to Orianna abilities. The point isn't that Gragas was some massive monster lategame, but he didn't fall off 'super hard'. Olaf lost 1200hp, how much of a chunk do you want? at the time where stuff like karthus, eve, cass, anivia, immediately post rework mordekaiser, and AP kog existed, gragas did fall off damn hard late game. characters had way more sustain and if you couldn't 100-0 them w/ gragas immediately then the team fight is basically a 4v5 for whichever side had the gragas if you didn't win early it got increasingly difficult to win at all with him. all of that aside his power spike was still after deathcap, his laning phase before that was pretty abysmal at best. if you want to talk about a time when gragas was absurd, go back to when he could build innervating locket | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
On April 26 2015 16:06 Frolossus wrote: at the time where stuff like karthus, eve, cass, anivia, immediately post rework mordekaiser, and AP kog existed, gragas did fall off damn hard late game. characters had way more sustain and if you couldn't 100-0 them w/ gragas immediately then the team fight is basically a 4v5 for whichever side had the gragas http://lol.esportspedia.com/wiki/Battle_of_the_Atlantic_2013/Statistics/Pick_and_Ban_Stats ? | ||
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
by the rabble rouser | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On April 26 2015 15:39 Frolossus wrote: gragas had a weak to average laning phase in a meta about power farming and fell off super hard late game He had a great laning phase, it was absurdly safe in any conditions, which is super desirable in competitive play. He provided a fat AOE burst and thats all in teamfights, but that was more than enough in organized play. | ||
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On April 26 2015 16:45 sob3k wrote: He had a great laning phase, it was absurdly safe in any conditions, which is super desirable in competitive play. He provided a fat AOE burst and thats all in teamfights, but that was more than enough in organized play. he was very safe, but had zero ability to trade with anything and was only a threat after he finished his deathcap. his AoE burst was very below average. he was picked specifically because of his ability to poke down people with blue buff in the mid game providing for excellent sieges and objective control | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
On April 26 2015 14:53 cLutZ wrote: Well its also quite crappy for teamfighting, and really not very good for ganking either, which is basically all about having a prepped W+E. The barrel should do max damage without charging so I don't know how it "helps" its more of just "not crippling" to his jungle. Which is basically the problem I was trying to highlight. And then you nerf the barrel because he can oneshot the wave super early. You don't seem to remember why Gragas was played top before he went to the jungle (there were two main nerfs, first one was putting a mana cost on his W, I'll let you guess the other one). That said, I'm pretty sure if the "bug fix" (durr) on Alistar was reverted he wouldn't even stand out in this meta (he'd prob be a super strong laner with Smite but he does too much with Flash to give it up so... ). I like how he had a clear power curve with the value of his ultimate tappering as the game went on and fights lasted longer, so you'd play around his triforce timing in the midgame for good damage while still being a super good tank, but was going to be outscaled eventually (sorta like Renekton when he was actually strong in the first fights I guess). Edit: Gragas had 735 + 1.9 AP ratio on QR. Add around 350 + 0.5 AP if he gets to E in the target he sent toward his team. His ult base cd was 60 seconds late game until one month before s2 finals (went up to 80), so usually 42s with blue and some CDR (like DFG, you guys shit on his burst but you forget DFG existed at the time, or even anything else that's above 10% really), so even if he screwed up a catch, his combo did enough damage to force a recall if it hit a squishy and it was hard for the enemy team to capitalise on a miss unless they were immediatly read to jump his team. He had a clear advantage if he had to use it to disengage after the enemy committed standard initiation cooldowns to try and get the jump on them. His Q has 1100 range before pre-season 4, plus the radius. He poked better farther than champions like Lux, and more reliably than Nidalee (since pass-through and AoE), he also pretty much cancelled his mana bar in lane as soon as level 5 because he'd oneshot the wave and sustain the cost with W. You're just wearing goggles because you're trying to push your opinion that current Gragas is shit design and then-Gragas was easy to tune with just lowering the ratio on his Q. Well maybe, just maybe, there were issues with both? | ||
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Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
https://web.archive.org/web/20131207010110/http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Gragas High base damage and AP scaling on his Q. Always up (with 20%cdr) 10% damage reduction on his W. Then he got a chalice on top of that which means he could trade with you, you couldn't trade with him. Then he also had his HP sustain passive. Also he had a huge AD steroid for early game. His AD steroid increased his total AD by 50% early game. That's insane. I might've been wrong about the level 2 all-in. It was probably level 3. | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
On April 26 2015 13:18 Sonnington wrote: Mid lane Gragas was the most annoying BS ever. Bar none. "I have infinite sustain, damage reduction, and an ability that gives me mother fucking mana regen. There's nothing you can do to trade with me efficiently. I also have good wave, great disengage, great engage, great mobility, and I can 100-0 squishies. And oh yeah, don't even think about fighting me after level 2, I get free AD. I want you to all in me level 2." Remember when his dash had a 5 second cd and his barrels had 1000 range so he could just snipe people and chunk them hard from the FOW? God I hated that champ so much. Now he's fine. He's perfectly balanced. Is he a strong jungler? Sure, but he's not some Übermensch Adonis with no weaknesses. He does his job efficiently, but he's not OP. haha rant about gragas from a guy with leblanc in his profile picture, priceless | ||
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JazzVortical
Australia1825 Posts
On April 26 2015 16:54 Frolossus wrote: he was very safe, but had zero ability to trade with anything and was only a threat after he finished his deathcap. his AoE burst was very below average. he was picked specifically because of his ability to poke down people with blue buff in the mid game providing for excellent sieges and objective control You're kidding right? He won like every trade thanks to sustain and Damage Reduction. | ||
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Ansibled
United Kingdom9872 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
we're running an hard engage/AoE comp (with waveclear on 2+ members to be able to push and defend from sieges), core being Orianna/Sivir (jungle is looser, with Sejuani/Amumu/Gragas depending on bans, and support is ideally Leona but we can do with other tanks). I'm the highest Elo on the team in soloQ and we played Orianna most games so they're prob going to ban it without second thoughts. They play Sivir in most of their games too (almost always with Annie, so autoban) which makes her a contested pick and we don't know who's playing blue side (nor if they'll ban her if they aren't). How would you "replace" both of those while retaining the idea/synergy behind the comp? My other mainly played mid is Viktor, who fits the follow-up (but damage over cc) and reliable waveclear. One of them plays him too (not as much) so he may be picked. Galio has the AoE cc and burst follow-up but he needs Flash to do it (or a good speed-up closely behind an Amumu/Sej initiation) and his waveclear isn't as reliable. I don't have Ahri, and I've barely played Vel'Koz and Syndra (other good candidates). Lissandra's short range is a liability and I'm usually not good at going in with her. Sivir's ult can be "replaced" offensively with a Glory, and defensively with a Talisman I guess (we really like to make plays with Face though and Coin sucks on most tanky supports). Varus can provide us with waveclear, and some AoE cc/poke/burst, he lacks mobility/self-survivability like Sivir's speed-ups and spellshield though. We'd use Kalista/Kennen for the synergy, however it takes too much training since we're playing in ~4 hours and only have 2 games with it so far. What kind of picks would you suggest to fit the comp (we'll review our players' pools anyway but we really have issues finding a replacement for Sivir)? | ||
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loSleb
Austria1389 Posts
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Fildun
Netherlands4124 Posts
If you're not afraid of the enemy jungler you could also take Annie maybe. | ||
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